Post by: dreed on September 15, 2018, 08:53:56 am
In Hallstatt, a garage door has a picture of someone with their finger to their lips and a written request in both English and simplified Chinese to keep quiet. The Chinese mob of tourists ignore the sign and natter amongst themselves. Tellingly, the general store (supermarket) has been updated to be legible in both the German and Chinese.
Why do people go to these places? It looks good, they want to make a good photograph too, like the one they see on the web page. In short, the subject gets photograph'd so much that the trampling of feet kills anything alive and the subject itself no longer becomes as interesting as it once was because it has been "photograph'd to death."
Is this a blessing or a curse?
Post by: Dave Rosser on September 15, 2018, 12:01:30 pm
Post by: Rob C on September 15, 2018, 02:13:11 pm
Don't blame the Chinese alone it's symptomatic of the ease of getting to places now compared with the past. Look at this video (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiIjpicrL3dAhWiA8AKHYsYBccQwqsBMAZ6BAgFEAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DC3zJfmoDF8s&usg=AOvVaw26MO1jKPyTaeVe7kvBlE7y) which I found on the web. When I went there (sgwd yr eirain) in the late 1950's with my parents and with my uncle as a guide we had the place to ourselves all day, even in the 1970's when I went with my wife it was still relatively quiet but now :( :'( .
During the 60s, when the kids came along, we used to drive to Aberfoyle and up The Duke's Pass; the intention was to have a picnic, and picnic we did, but even that long ago we'd elected to wait for rainy days. Try your luck in good weather and you could drive forever and be unable to park. It was quite cosy sitting in the car with music on and the world to ourselves.
Maybe that had a later bearing on my apparent liking for gloomy imagery: there's a good chance I don't quite see as much gloom in it as others may do...
:-)
Post by: FabienP on September 15, 2018, 05:52:43 pm
(...)
Is this a blessing or a curse?
It is a blessing if you have a business which caters to the crowds of tourists and otherwise can only be seen as a curse.
Above a certain threshold, tourism is a form of pollution which should be diluted to safe levels. A few days ago, there was an article in the Guardian which mentioned the least popular UK Ordinance Survey maps, as a hint of places which could benefit from more visitors and alleviate the burden in the more well-known spots. This resulted in an immediate backlash among people who know these remote places and wish to keep enjoying these unspoilt locations.
And let us not forget that not all tourists are equally problematic. Having recently returned from a trip to Japan (as a tourist! ::)), I can confirm that Chinese tourists can be a major disruption to crowd flows in clogged locations. Four people can paralyse an entire train station by staying in the middle of a narrow corridor or a platform where 500 Japanese people could easily pass in perfect harmony. In all cases where I noticed this behaviour, the involved tourists did not seem to notice that they were interfering with normal operations and could not be told to move away since they did not understand Japanese or English. Their lack of self-awareness and regard for others, as well as a missing ability to learn was puzzling to say the least. Westerners can disrupt flows too, typically by keeping to the right side of walkways, even when explicit signs indicate that one should keep to the left, but this is far less problematic and does not result in complete cloggs.
So let's educate tourists so that they behave more responsibly! And hope that an improvement can be seen in our lifetimes! ;D
Cheers,
Fabien
Post by: dreed on September 16, 2018, 03:21:21 am
Above a certain threshold, tourism is a form of pollution which should be diluted to safe levels.
Absolutely. The tourist: an environmental terrorist.
Quote
I can confirm that Chinese tourists can be a major disruption to crowd flows in clogged locations. Four people can paralyse an entire train station by staying in the middle of a narrow corridor or a platform where 500 Japanese people could easily pass in perfect harmony. In all cases where I noticed this behaviour, the involved tourists did not seem to notice that they were interfering with normal operations and could not be told to move away since they did not understand Japanese or English. Their lack of self-awareness and regard for others, as well as a missing ability to learn was puzzling to say the least.
Think about their culture: they do as they're told, by the government. If there's nobody to tell them what to do, they seem to be quite unable to do anything when away from home. Your observations here match mine, wherever it is in the world that I've been and observed Chinese tourists.
The comment above about the waterfall is apt. The sharing and spreading of information via the Internet is killing "quiet places" but I don't know that there is any kind of solution.
Post by: KLaban on September 16, 2018, 05:36:49 am
There's a lesson there.
Post by: Rob C on September 16, 2018, 07:06:19 am
Venice has 60,000 permanent residents and over 25 million tourists each year. Anywhere near Piazza San Marco and it's almost impossible to move. A few streets away and it's possible to find peace and quiet.
There's a lesson there.
Of course there is: send everybody to Las Vegas instead, where they find everything in manageable proportions and relatively close to hand.
More seriously, Barcelona and Palma residents are up in arms demonstrating because rentals are so high they can't live in their own home towns anymore. Pollensa has banned rentals for tourism for exactly the same reason, and Puerto Pollensa is now head Madame. It's the rental mirror of the home buying foreigner (comme moi) who has made owning beyond the dreams of many young local people. Same in nice parts of rural Scotland and, apparently, Wales, Cornwall etc.
Of course, if people used hotels, establishments that, here, are pretty good at 3-star upwards, instead of private apartments often bought by foreigners hoping to pay for them through rentals (dream on), life would be far easier for everyone. Hotels pay taxes, insurance for staff, and are obliged to meet prescribed standards. The provision of regular, guaranteed employment in the tourist industry would go a long way to resolving issues.
The only benefit I can see the locals enjoy from all of this is that some find employment, but the downside is clearly felt in the property market. Don't get me going there: the estate agents are currently a bit more modest, but today's 5 or 6 percent is one helluva whack, especially with VAT on top. You have to advertise, say, for 325,000 if you want to clear around the 300,000 mark. No wonder the market is slow. Ann's bro' made a fortune on 1%.
:-(
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 16, 2018, 08:09:48 am
I believe social media has played a big part in a lot of the issues we see. People see photos on Instagram and want to claim the same one for their feed so they get likes. It's a different time today with so much of the world traveling and I am not sure it's going to change in the near future.
Post by: Robert Roaldi on September 16, 2018, 08:54:11 am
I don't see any escape from this. It just never occurs to people that they may be in your shot, they don't know what long exposures are, there is simply no widespread awareness of these things.
Post by: Ray on September 16, 2018, 10:39:01 am
One of the very scenic places I visited in China, with my Chinese partner, was the Yellow Mountains in Huangshan. These are magnificent mountains that feature in many ancient Chinese paintings and scrolls.
The very friendly owner of the hotel we were staying at, close to the mountains, recommended that we should avoid going up the mountains on the Sunday because the weekends are rather crowded. So we took a bus ride on the Monday, to the entrance of the cable car, for people who who don't have the time or energy to walk up, although that is an option which I might have taken if I were travelling alone.
What really amazed me was the extent of the queues, on the Monday. If it was that bad on a Monday, what on earth would it have been like on a Saturday or Sunday. >:(
Following is a shot I took of the queues. However, to be fair to the Chinese, an official did observe our plight and directed us to a shortcut route to escape the crowds, possibly only available for foreign tourists. That saved us a lot of time.
On the way back down, we made the error of assuming that our ticket was a return ticket, because it was quite expensive by Chinese standards, over A$40 per person.
After half an hour of slowly moving down several flights of stairs, crushed within a mass of Chinese tourists, we finally arrived at the entrance to the descending cable cars, only to be told by the ticket inspector that our ticket was not valid. It was a one-way ticket, and we should go back up the stairs to buy another ticket.
We did our best to explain that walking back up several flights of stairs, against a mass of crowds moving in the opposite direction, would be too difficult. The inspector called someone who spoke better English and who understood the problem. So we paid her the money for the tickets and sat down for 10 or 15 minutes whilst she took some other back-route to the ticket office. Problem solved. :)
The Chinese can be very helpful. Some of the accommodation we stayed at was severely lacking in facilities. One room didn't even have a fridge, yet the proprietors (or proprietresses) were really helpful and friendly, so that more than compensated for any lack of room facilities.
Post by: KLaban on September 16, 2018, 10:40:00 am
Perhaps the thread title should have read Photographed to death, brought to you by the Internet, the Chinese tourist, photographers and sites such as LuLa as all are a part of the problem rather than a part of any kind of solution to tourist saturation.
Post by: Rob C on September 16, 2018, 01:26:26 pm
Equally, photographers have no divine right to expect the world to stop whilst they make an exposure. For a little while I used to pause and let people make their snaps as I went along my way to the shops or wherever, but now, since digital, I give way not at all: another exposure after I have passed is free. If I wait, it turns into the same routine as holding the door open in a busy shop: you can be left doing it all day long. Why let yourself go there?
Post by: KLaban on September 16, 2018, 03:30:47 pm
Other than for areas under environmental threat, such as the polar regions, or even where wildlife is as endangered, I wouldn't blame photography too much; after all, the Brownie was no less a danger than the digital miracle; it's not the cameras - it's the feet, the rubbish and often the noise.
The Brownie images weren't online or on social media.
The world is so much smaller and the people wealthier...
Post by: Rob C on September 16, 2018, 05:30:47 pm
The Brownie images weren't online or on social media.
The world is so much smaller and the people wealthier...
True, but then you need to blame the jet; once upon a lovely time flight was a costly, slower game to play.
The Internet doesn't do anything that travel agents and magazines and tourist boards haven't always done. With or without cameras, folks would seek out something new to see, something that takes them away from the daily grind for a couple of weeks. Ironically, climate change may end up being the saviour for some areas. When the Med turns into soup, more dangerous than the one it already is, then maybe Martin Parr's idyllic places in the UK will suddenly spring back to life... Brexit, if it comes, will make foreign travel more difficult again and obviously a lot more expensive: staycations will become exciting and affordable once more as the business traveller becomes less of a main client. (Britain was ever the most expensive part of our trips from here to there and back.)
Insofar as the Chinese and Americans are concerned, perhaps the wealthier Americans will return to being proper, rich tourists and spend quality time in Paris writing books, sitting in clubs listening to jazz, and on the Riviera chilling out... the Chinese are mostly going to British universities and getting advanced degrees. After enough have them, they may stop coming at all, and the pro-Brexit folks will be able to stop worrying. Life is so exciting in these magical, pre apocalyptic years.
Time to do the dishes and drift off to bed.
:-)
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 16, 2018, 06:16:00 pm
... any kind of solution to tourist saturation.
The solution is simple: the end of democracy, return of the elites. The only queue unwashed masses should be seen in is the queue for showers.
Post by: Alan Klein on September 17, 2018, 12:04:52 am
The solution is simple: the end of democracy, return of the elites. The only queue unwashed masses should be seen in is the queue for showers.
I agree. Why should the riff-raff need a good camera and nice vacation pictures. They should be in third class like they were on the Titanic, swabbing down the decks for the rest of us. In any case, if they weren't clamoring for those great shots, how would photography guides stay in business? They'd have to hang up their boots and sell their Jeeps.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYpsf5cbQAE/hqdefault.jpg (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYpsf5cbQAE/hqdefault.jpg)
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 04:06:04 am
I agree. Why should the riff-raff need a good camera and nice vacation pictures. They should be in third class like they were on the Titanic, swabbing down the decks for the rest of us. In any case, if they weren't clamoring for those great shots, how would photography guides stay in business? They'd have to hang up their boots and sell their Jeeps.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYpsf5cbQAE/hqdefault.jpg (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYpsf5cbQAE/hqdefault.jpg)
Alan, what makes you think the "riff-raff" wants a good camera, gives a shit about photography at all? Do you see the bums on the street shooting street, shooting anything at all unless one another with bullets or themselves with dope of some kind?
Photography has always been a bit of an exclusive-to-the-better-off kinda deal. You think that just anyone can - on whim or otherwise - simply walk into a remaining shop, walking out a while later with a bought fifteen hundred bucks/pounds camera? You forget that roughly half the population that votes left does so to avoid starvation and to get medical aid (it has no way of buying) when needed.
I have sailed on several passenger ships in my youth, doing the 23 +- days U.K. - India run (POSH?), and the lower classes swabbed down nothing, and they had a better social time than did I in first class. Kids being kids, I was able to go to their section of ship and enjoy the conviviality, the music. The stateroom quality of life is better in many ways, but also a bit cold, sterile and constantly on guard. As many have later found, slumming on a credit card can be fun for a while.
Insofar as photography guides staying in business: I care as much for them as do the pennystock amateurs for the plight of the families of all the pro-stock shooters they put out of work for nothing better than ego and a couple of bucks a year or once in a lifetime.
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 04:10:49 am
The solution is simple: the end of democracy, return of the elites. The only queue unwashed masses should be seen in is the queue for showers.
How would that represent a change?
Rob
Post by: Ivophoto on September 17, 2018, 04:40:25 am
I agree. Why should the riff-raff need a good camera and nice vacation pictures. They should be in third class like they were on the Titanic, swabbing down the decks for the rest of us. In any case, if they weren't clamoring for those great shots, how would photography guides stay in business? They'd have to hang up their boots and sell their Jeeps.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYpsf5cbQAE/hqdefault.jpg (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bYpsf5cbQAE/hqdefault.jpg)
Yes, only, maybe you end up in that 3th Class. 🤭 but this is about the forbidden P word.
Post by: Ivophoto on September 17, 2018, 04:41:48 am
The solution is simple: the end of democracy, return of the elites. The only queue unwashed masses should be seen in is the queue for showers.
Sounds like my bathroom few years ago when I had to deal with a wife and an adult daughter.
Post by: 32BT on September 17, 2018, 06:08:03 am
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on September 17, 2018, 06:31:33 am
Recently I spent 5 days in London with my family, doing the habitual site seeing, museums, etc. The place was packed, as usual. There was even a queue in Greenwich for the meridian picture...
Iceland... never been there. But really, how can photographers go to those places, publish the photos, and then expect such places to remain undisclosed to the greater masses? It is illogical.
Post by: elliot_n on September 17, 2018, 07:26:13 am
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 07:48:37 am
I'm not entirely certain what Slobodan is implying with the shower remark, but if it is remotely what I think it is, then some of the responses may be a bit inappropriate.
Belsen?
:-(
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 08:09:57 am
Chinese tourism is just a phase. 30 years ago it was the Japanese, but now they mostly choose to stay at home.
The feet are just as harmful independently of passport.
The easy money they spend is corrupting of people otherwise having hard lives, and no substitute for a respectable job in productive services or businesses of one sort or another. Filling stressed sewerage systems with crappy overload, draining local water supplies with at least three showers a day (on getting up; after postprandial sex; prior to going out for the night) and making parking for local people impossible - a side-product of which is summer parking charges - there is little in tourism for those not directly involved in the exploitation. The housing problems have been explained already.
Thing is, as long as it continues to provide money, nobody looks to other, benign work opportunities that might otherwise flourish. Mallorca had several shoe and leather factories: I think the shoes have vanished and most of the leather I see in the markets is in stalls tended by Africans. I wouldn't buy from them because of the exploitation to which the sellers are subjected as well as worries about anthrax and hell knows what else may be being imported. Far out? Well, cheap flower imports have introduced moths that kill geraniums and beetles that destroy the palm trees of entire villages. Both have killed on my own property.
I see this as a scourge that will one day end in tears; tears for those who used it to make money and for those who will find themselves idle.
Rob
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2018, 08:13:42 am
I'm not entirely certain what Slobodan is implying with the shower remark, but if it is remotely what I think it is, then some of the responses may be a bit inappropriate.
Settle down. It was just a play on words. “Unwashed” vs. “washed,” i.e., “showered.” Sheesh.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2018, 08:17:10 am
Belsen?
:-(
Rob, your dirty mind needs a shower ;)
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 08:29:44 am
Rob, your dirty mind needs a shower ;)
It wouldn't help: reinfection is just an irresistible click away.
:-)
Post by: OmerV on September 17, 2018, 08:40:02 am
The solution is simple: the end of democracy, return of the elites. The only queue unwashed masses should be seen in is the queue for showers.
Considering the cost of photo tours, it’s the swarming of the elite that you smell, Slobodan. :D
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 08:59:24 am
Considering the cost of photo tours, it’s the swarming of the elite that you smell, Slobodan. :D
! ... ¡ ... !
Rob
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2018, 09:02:38 am
To those clamoring for a "solution" to mass tourism, trampling everything in its way, there is another one: WWIII.
From the time I was born to today, Earth's population has grown threefold. That would be five billion more people. While interesting places, like national parks, remained the same in size, with only a few new ones added (e.g., Iceland).
The current administration in the USA proposed a significant rise in entrance fees to national parks. And before I was able to raise my hands to applaud, the outcry of political correctness was so loud that they had to scale down the increase.
I say raise the entrance fees to national parks 2-3 times. Raise bus fees double that (per person) and photographic workshops triple that (per person). Photography is a solitary endeavor. Mass photography is an oxymoron and an abomination.
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 09:18:34 am
I said get rid of democracy, but forgot to add get rid of capitalism at the same time. Because that is what is causing masses (washed or unwashed) to afford travel (and photo tours). Ever heard of mass Soviet or Mao's China tourists?
To those clamoring for a "solution" to mass tourism, trampling everything in it way, there is another one: WWIII.
From the time I was born to today, Earth's population has grown threefold. That would be five billion more people. While interesting places, like national parks, remained the same in size, with only a few new ones added (e.g., Iceland).
The current administration in the USA proposed a significant rise in entrance fees to national parks. And before I was able to raise my hands to applaud, the outcry of political correctness was so loud that they had to scale down the increase.
I say raise the entrance fees to national parks 2-3 times. Raise bus fees double that (per person) and photographic workshops triple that (per person). Photography is a solitary endeavor. Mass photography is an oxymoron and an abomination.
Nobody has ever spoken words photographic more true.
Even a party of one more than the snapper is a crowd that distracts, gets in the way and brings about deadly self-consciousness and conversation.
The minimum number of people on a shoot the better; the good clients understood this whereas the others wanted to fill the "event", as it was for them, with second-opinions based on zero understanding of what the camera was seeing. Parallax? Wot dat, dude?
Considered photography is entirely about self-expression; other voices do not help one iota.
Rob
Post by: 32BT on September 17, 2018, 09:26:49 am
Settle down. It was just a play on words. “Unwashed” vs. “washed,” i.e., “showered.” Sheesh.
No worries, i didn't have a problem with your remark, even within the realm of my own contorted interpretation, it's just that it puts the responses in a very different light.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2018, 09:35:35 am
(https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2016/02/12768376_1097374186981555_8987231984977932000_o.jpg)
Post by: KLaban on September 17, 2018, 10:01:30 am
The mere thought of sharing my space with another photographer is a bad dream, but that image, Slobodan, is enough to give me night terrors.
Please stop it.
;-)
Post by: Ivophoto on September 17, 2018, 10:02:43 am
I'm not entirely certain what Slobodan is implying with the shower remark, but if it is remotely what I think it is, then some of the responses may be a bit inappropriate.
If it is remotely what you think, not the replies are inappropriate but Slobodan’s post is. But I’m sure it is even not from far what you think.
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 10:05:14 am
(https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2016/02/12768376_1097374186981555_8987231984977932000_o.jpg)
The mere thought of sharing my space with another photographer is a bad dream, but that image, Slobodan, is enough to give me night terrors.
Please stop it.
;-)
Worse, the guy on the extreme right is the mirror image of our community's gardener, which probably explains his regular absence from the gardens.
;-(
Post by: Ivophoto on September 17, 2018, 10:05:50 am
Belsen?
:-(
Guys, guys. Who the hell is making that link......
Post by: Ivophoto on September 17, 2018, 10:11:49 am
(https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2016/02/12768376_1097374186981555_8987231984977932000_o.jpg)
The mere thought of sharing my space with another photographer is a bad dream, but that image, Slobodan, is enough to give me night terrors.
Please stop it.
;-)
I like the tea table.
It remembers me to the years a was practicing target shooting. Some had a more US combat style, some the more British tongue in cheek style. The latter enjoyed a cup of Earl grey while laying down and tuning their riflescope.
Post by: OmerV on September 17, 2018, 10:23:37 am
I think most people who buy camera gear do so without a clue on what to do with it. So it makes sense that most folk take cues from other camera owners and mostly photograph during vacations and tourist outings.
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 10:54:01 am
I think most people who buy camera gear do so without a clue on what to do with it. So it makes sense that most folk take cues from other camera owners and mostly photograph during vacations and tourist outings.
True, but even more cruelly put than I would have dared: I may not have suggested the sheepdogs...
:-)
Post by: JNB_Rare on September 17, 2018, 12:43:08 pm
Post by: OmerV on September 17, 2018, 07:55:44 pm
True, but even more cruelly put than I would have dared: I may not have suggested the sheepdogs...
:-)
OK, I was uncharitable. Flickr, Smugmug, Instagram, et al, are busting at the seams with photography. The thing is, I never see those photographers on my own outings, which is often and varied. It’s a mystery then.
Post by: Alan Klein on September 17, 2018, 07:56:13 pm
The idea that photography tour operators should complain about the crowds seems anti-intuitive. The more people visiting, the more "better" photographers would want their services. Travelers are good for the economy. The town of Springdale, UT, on the south side of Zion National Park, is booming because of the increase in visitors. Restaurants, hotels, motels, restaurants, and even photography shops sprout up like I've seen in Sedona and Moab, two popular towns nearby Red Rock, Canyonlands and Arches National Parks. I did have to elbow my way in a little at Monument Valley shooting from the Hotel. But there was actually plenty of space and you could get the same shot from our room balcony.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2018, 08:33:58 pm
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 17, 2018, 08:49:18 pm
Yosemite picture: while I was shooting the scene, my daughter, then three years old, was throwing pebbles into the river to kill the time. Another photographer got very angry she was disturbing his reflections.
Grand Canyon: had to get up at 4am to make it to this spot for sunrise. Literally seconds after me another photographer showed up and asked me if I claim the spot I was standing on.
Bryce Canyon: stayed for the twilight, everybody else was gone by then.
These shots were done in 2002, on a film Hasselblad, before the selfie craze.
Post by: Two23 on September 17, 2018, 09:36:18 pm
Iceland has gotten so bad I have not done workshops there in 2018 and wondering if I will in the near future. Places that were untouched and had small parking lots are now paved and expended for buses. There are even waffle and coffee stands at many of them. Platforms are being built as many people are trampling down things. Many tourists ignore rules or just common sense. I was shooting an iceberg on the beach in Iceland two years ago. It was a gem and I was working on a long exposure to maximix=ze the intensity of the water around it. I Chinese tourist and his girlfriend came running up in the middle of my exposure, climbed onto it and proceeded to take a selfie, in the middle of my exposure. It was very obvious I was shooting it but they must have had blinders on.
I've been to Iceland three times starting about 2004 and last time about three years ago. It has been getting progressively more crowded, which for me dilutes interaction with locals (who mostly sound like they're from North Dakota, LOL.) For Islanders this is all a good thing as the local fishing industry has been dying out, banking jobs took a bit hit with the money crisis, and there just aren't all that many jobs there. So, I don't begrudge them.
My strategy to all this is to simply switch to shooting at night. At night I pretty much have everything to myself. In some places, like Yellowstone, it is dangerous to wander around alone at night so I carry a pistol (I have a permit.) Usually though it's pretty safe, and I get some really cool shots no one else thinks of. At night it's a whole new world. As for Island, I do plan on going back, but next time it will be in winter. The crowds will be gone, and I'm a winter photographer at heart. A bonus is that Iceland in the winter is far warmer for us than where we live. A cold day in Reykjavik is +26F (-3.3C), where a cold day in South Dakota is -26F! (-32C) It will be like vacationing in Florida. :)
Kent in SD
Below photo:
Castle Geysor at Yellowstone NP.
(Usually crowded during the day,
had to myself at midnight. :) )
Post by: Alan Klein on September 17, 2018, 10:10:41 pm
Post by: Rob C on September 18, 2018, 06:15:08 am
I spent 16 days visiting national parks in the American Southwest in April. While not the height of the season, there were plenty of travelers and photographers there. But we never found a need to go hiking to some remote spot to get a clear view of a scenic shot. Actually we don;t hike, just stop by pull offs while driving or maybe walk from the parking lot to the viewpoint. Whether during the day or at sunset or sunrise in some cases, "keepers" were always available without being blocked. Here's some of them. https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157694819890421 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157694819890421)
The idea that photography tour operators should complain about the crowds seems anti-intuitive. The more people visiting, the more "better" photographers would want their services. Travelers are good for the economy. The town of Springdale, UT, on the south side of Zion National Park, is booming because of the increase in visitors. Restaurants, hotels, motels, restaurants, and even photography shops sprout up like I've seen in Sedona and Moab, two popular towns nearby Red Rock, Canyonlands and Arches National Parks. I did have to elbow my way in a little at Monument Valley shooting from the Hotel. But there was actually plenty of space and you could get the same shot from our room balcony.
Yep, tourism brings fiscal boom, and with it?
Post by: Alan Klein on September 18, 2018, 08:24:57 am
Fiscal boom allows people to eat better, take care of their families better, get better health care, and buy more cameras to add to the crowds shooting icons. What's the alternative?
Yep, tourism brings fiscal boom, and with it?
Post by: RSL on September 18, 2018, 09:18:00 am
Post by: Rob C on September 18, 2018, 09:28:20 am
Fiscal boom allows people to eat better, take care of their families better, get better health care, and buy more cameras to add to the crowds shooting icons. What's the alternative?
That's the big question that remains unanswered.
For some, it means a return to reality, with the BMW and/or Mercedes replaced by the cart of sixty years ago. It means that foreign people who invested in property as speculation get their fingers burned; that the existing sanitation and water supplies built to suit (but ever behind) the needs of tourism become perfectly capable of supporting local, tourist-free pressures. It means that the relatively innocent farmer of the 50s who sold the farm for a couple of grand can now buy back, something he soon discovered his couple of big ones stopped letting him doing three years later.
It means that local governments, town halls and their enchufados have to stop thinking about how they can manipulate planning and licensing authority regulations to make a fortune out of corruption in those rich pastures. It means that discos and bars pushing Elvis Nites stop keeping ordinary folks awake until dawn. It means that drugs might vanish, and along with them the associated crime.
In short, I guess it means that society has to face and figure a genuine way forwad, and not one built on prostitution of the environment and all that works within it. When was the last time anybody went on holiday and believed the smile on the face of a waiter? I discount a thirteen-year-old girl, of course.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 18, 2018, 09:39:31 am
Post by: Alan Klein on September 18, 2018, 09:53:17 am
Post by: Alan Klein on September 18, 2018, 10:10:12 am
That's the big question that remains unanswered.Rob you make the good point. But the issue I don't think has to do with materialism and graft but finding a place in the world where other things are more important. The expression you can't live by bread alone comes to mind. We've lost our way spiritually where the meaning of life had been diminished.
For some, it means a return to reality, with the BMW and/or Mercedes replaced by the cart of sixty years ago. It means that foreign people who invested in property as speculation get their fingers burned; that the existing sanitation and water supplies built to suit (but ever behind) the needs of tourism become perfectly capable of supporting local, tourist-free pressures. It means that the relatively innocent farmer of the 50s who sold the farm for a couple of grand can now buy back, something he soon discovered his couple of big ones stopped letting him doing three years later.
It means that local governments, town halls and their enchufados have to stop thinking about how they can manipulate planning and licensing authority regulations to make a fortune out of corruption in those rich pastures. It means that discos and bars pushing Elvis Nites stop keeping ordinary folks awake until dawn. It means that drugs might vanish, and along with them the associated crime.
In short, I guess it means that society has to face and figure a genuine way forwad, and not one built on prostitution of the environment and all that works within it. When was the last time anybody went on holiday and believed the smile on the face of a waiter? I discount a thirteen-year-old girl, of course.
This brings us back to this topic. When people go to icons to witness scenes that take them out of themselves, that's the awe they want to experience that they don't get in their daily material lives. We all need that spiritual experience so we're all chasing it with our little magic boxes to capture the scene and take it back with us so we can experience the awe again at home. Isn't that what we're trying to do when we travel with our cameras? Doesn't everyone have the right to experience things that go beyond ourselves?
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 18, 2018, 10:44:09 am
... The expression you can't live by bread alone comes to mind...
A photographic illustration of that: "No solo de pan vive el hombre" - Havana, Cuba (a little manly vanity helps too ;) )
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 18, 2018, 11:05:40 am
... to capture the scene and take it back with us so we can experience the awe again at home...
The only "awe" the selfie generation apparently experiences is the narcissistic one.
There is a scene in a movie The Guilt Trip, with Seth Rogen and Barbra Streisand, where he takes his mother to fulfill her life-long desire to see Grand Canyon.
Once there, she asks:
"How long are we supposed to look at it?"
Her son responds:
"10 minutes? - "I think it is disrespectful to look at it any less"
The clip is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4TzU2xiyrM
That is how most tourists experience it. They check the box, take a selfie, and leave for the next burger joint on their trip.
Post by: KLaban on September 18, 2018, 12:14:10 pm
...When was the last time anybody went on holiday and believed the smile on the face of a waiter?
Some of our very best and most valued friends are waiters and taverna owners first met on holidays many moons ago. Tomorrow night we party with the daughter of one such family and are treated as family.
Post by: Rob C on September 18, 2018, 03:18:53 pm
Some of our very best and most valued friends are waiters and taverna owners first met on holidays many moons ago. Tomorrow night we party with the daughter of one such family and are treated as family.
As with myself, regular takes you out of the tourist category.
;-)
Post by: Chris Kern on September 18, 2018, 05:38:44 pm
It means that local governments, town halls and their enchufados
Gracias, ¡una palabra utíl!
Post by: Rob C on September 19, 2018, 04:40:21 am
Gracias, ¡una palabra utíl!
¡De nada, señor Chris!
;-)
Post by: KLaban on September 19, 2018, 04:49:27 am
As with myself, regular takes you out of the tourist category.
;-)
Could it be that when we are in India and Morocco we are there as travellers, when in Greece we are there as visitors and when in Venice we are just two more bloody tourists?
;-)
Post by: Rob C on September 19, 2018, 04:55:29 am
Rob, have you asked any of the locals would they return to the situation from 50 years ago?
I have had several conversations where electricians, plumbers and builders tell me how they have to live with their parents because they can't find an affordable home...
I know quite a few Mallorquins of my own age who are bitter about the way their town has been raped, the seafront road turned into a pedestrian walk, and easy, convenient access to their homes, local bars etc. ruined. The same folks complain about the lack of parking space, and that they now have to try to find some rich guy with a spare underground parking slot so they can pay him in order keep their vehicle safe... no idea how many still moan about having to lock their doors and windows when they go out, which they never had to do under Franco. On the bright side (?), that isn't all bad, because with climate change, you never know anymore whether a bright morning will still be that three hours later. Living on a bay, I sometimes walk about looking at the surrounding mountains and wonder how far inland a tsunami might flow.
Rob
Post by: Rob C on September 19, 2018, 04:57:50 am
Could it be that when we are in India and Morocco we are there as travellers, when in Greece we are there as visitors and when in Venice we are just two more bloody tourists?
;-)
Fairly neat nutshell, but don't forget the personal input factor you take or do not take with you on trips!
Post by: Ivophoto on September 19, 2018, 06:20:01 am
Could it be that when we are in India and Morocco we are there as travellers, when in Greece we are there as visitors and when in Venice we are just two more bloody tourists?
;-)
Not mentioning the bloody colonists / crusaders / etc / ..... we are in some regions.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 19, 2018, 08:52:54 am
I have had several conversations...
None of which answers my question. Instead, I heard a litany of standard complaints from perenial bitchers and moaners who only see one side of the coin. But offer them to return to a situation from 50 years ago and they would ask you if the offer includes a free ticket to Germany, as that’s where they usually ended up as gastarbeiters, fleeing the poverty of their no-tourist paradise at home.
Post by: langier on September 19, 2018, 10:03:22 am
Several years back, I had a gig on-site of the Grand Canyon Skywalk to train the "photographer-guides" how to compose, expose, etc. white they were working the crowds, all lined up for their walk on the glass over Grand Canyon West. We were there in late spring during their low season. Still, from early morning sunset, hundreds, if not thousands came, mostly on busses from both the US, Asia and all over the world. Many to fulfill their bucket list in just a few hours to see the Grand Canyon.
Many puh-puhed the concept, especially the Grand Canyon purists saying it was an abomination and shouldn't be there. I looked at it as a way to fulfill the wishes of many for their 10-minutes of looking complete with at least some boots-on-the-ground experience, employment and income to the tribe that ran it and more importantly, taking this segment of visitor away from the North and especially the South Rim to shoulder some of the impact.
Many would never have experienced the Grand Canyon any other way than a few hour jaunt from Las Vegas on a tour to this attraction.
The photo of the unwashed masses of photographers with more sticks than the forest was like a trip to Yosemite also several years ago. It was Ansel's birthday in February and the middle of the waterfall glow. When I drove the valley, every turnout was filled and every view of El Capitan was filled with a forest of tripod legs. That wasn't the worse of it.
As the afternoon got later, I started my drive home, about 2-3 hours away. Ansel brought clouds this day, a fairly high overcast. No sunlight was going to come, let alone for Ansel to break the clouds above to let God shine a golden light onto the falls so that thousands and thousands would be rewarded standing and waiting for the light.
As I approached El Capitan Meadows, the road was down to one lane. Cars were double-parked and on both sides. Every nook and cranny filled. I saw my chance... a pull-into space by the picnic ground (I think). I pulled in, got my photo of the forest of human and tripod legs with cameras pointed up. Got back into my vehicle and left content in my trip to Yosemite to get the photos missed by the masses, all clamoring for the bucket-list photo that tens of thousands have taken over and over.
For me, the excitement to traveling to all the popular parks and photo spots of the west is no longer an adventure nor fulfilling. It's far more interesting to go off the beaten path for me to both obscure places here in California, Nevada and the West and to similar gems in Europe and especially Serbia and the Balkans.
Finding the invisible hidden in plain sight and a little off the beaten path still brings me excitement and wonderment. Seeing so many, especially friends and colleagues take the same photos of the same places is a bore.
Though my last two journeys to Italy were near the major tourist-traps (Venice, Pisa, Tuscany, Rome), one trip was in the middle of the masses, the other off season, there were many gems to be discovered if you went a little further, to "see" beyond the bucket lists. However, if something was a "give-me," why not indulge in a photo?
My challenge and the challenge to my friends and colleagues, document the masses by turning the camera behind you or back-off to show the chaos, find a new way to "see" or find the different, new, obscure or otherwise a new POV or the gem hidden in the open. It's tough, but it can be done.
Post by: Chris Kern on September 19, 2018, 10:04:08 am
I know quite a few Mallorquins of my own age who are bitter about the way their town has been raped, the seafront road turned into a pedestrian walk, and easy, convenient access to their homes, local bars etc. ruined. The same folks complain about the lack of parking space, and that they now have to try to find some rich guy with a spare underground parking slot so they can pay him in order keep their vehicle safe...
None of which answers my question. Instead, I heard a litany of standard complaints from perenial bitchers and moaners who only see one side of the coin. But offer them to return to a situation from 50 years ago . . .
I heard almost word-for-word the same complaints from locals in Vancouver during a visit earlier this month. And not for the first time, although on this trip we seemed to run into more people than in the past who seemed eager to vent, even to a couple who were obviously tourists from south-of-the-border.
In Vancouver, it isn't just tourists, but the effects of an enormous influx of foreign investment, much of it from Hong Kong and mainland China, and much of that diverted into residential real estate in the form of towering buildings that now occlude the striking natural setting from almost everywhere downtown except the immediate waterfront.
I had a long conversation one afternoon with a construction worker who was returning home after a long day working on a new residential condominium building in North Vancouver, a smaller city across the Burrard Inlet from downtown Vancouver. He described one walk-through with an absentee investor who was purchasing a C$5M penthouse, and who wanted some last-minute modifications. "These guys arrive in helicopters with security guards and assistants, tell the construction manager what to change while the assistants take notes, and fly away again. Price is no object. They want what they want."
But he also pointed out that there was always plenty of work for "grunts" like him to satisfy the demands of the rich foreigners. And, of course, many other Vancouverites make a living by working in the tourist industry.
Post by: Two23 on September 19, 2018, 10:08:51 am
I have had several conversations where electricians, plumbers and builders tell me how they have to live with their parents because they can't find an affordable home...
I know quite a few Mallorquins of my own age who are bitter about the way their town has been raped, the seafront road turned into a pedestrian walk, and easy, convenient access to their homes, local bars etc. ruined. The same folks complain about the lack of parking space, and that they now have to try to find some rich guy with a spare underground parking slot so they can pay him in order keep their vehicle safe... no idea how many still moan about having to lock their doors and windows when they go out, which they never had to do under Franco.
If things are that bad, why don't they just move to some place they would like better? I moved from the much larger and more chaotic Kansas City to a small northern city in 1991 for similar reasons and have flourished as a result. Having visited urban places on the U.S. West Coast and finding only high taxes, crime, high taxes, bums & addicts, high taxes, expensive housing, high taxes, crowded/stressful roads, and high taxes--I come away with no understanding of why anyone would choose to live there. It makes no sense to me to continue living in a place that stresses you or keeps you from having a higher quality of life.
Kent in SD
Post by: KLaban on September 19, 2018, 10:29:48 am
A stock answer for sure, but a conviction that has served me well.
Post by: Rob C on September 19, 2018, 10:45:40 am
If things are that bad, why don't they just move to some place they would like better? I moved from the much larger and more chaotic Kansas City to a small northern city in 1991 for similar reasons and have flourished as a result. Having visited urban places on the U.S. West Coast and finding only high taxes, crime, high taxes, bums & addicts, high taxes, expensive housing, high taxes, crowded/stressful roads, and high taxes--I come away with no understanding of why anyone would choose to live there. It makes no sense to me to continue living in a place that stresses you or keeps you from having a higher quality of life.
Kent in SD
I guess I might answer on their behalf by pointing out that island folks live within a very small circle of community. Even the Mallorquin dialect (a version of Catalan) varies from one small town to the next. Families are deeply rooted and that leads both to a strong sense of local solidarity as it can to hard, generational hatreds within the same area. Think mafia families without much of the violence.
Today was an odd day; without warning I found that lunch at my own table was not going to happen, and I ended up with two couples I know that own property here and come to it quite a lot each year. Anyway, it turns out that the ground floor apartment, two across from mine, had been left unvisited for a couple of months, and when the owners arrived, it was discovered that it had been lived in by somebody who left one helluva mess. The local police have been informed, but that won't solve anything. The people who own the other two floors were away on holiday at their place in France and so the whole block was empty. The block across the garden was occupied, but who knows who strangers are? They could have been friends of the owners, anyone at all. Nobody is going to challenge anyone. Wish I still had my alsabrador.
Post by: stamper on September 19, 2018, 11:03:52 am
My stock reply to threads such as this is if I so much as see another photographer then I know I'm in the wrong place.
A stock answer for sure, but a conviction that has served me well.
If I see another photographer then I look to see where their camera is pointed at.
Post by: FabienP on September 19, 2018, 05:11:46 pm
(...)
Many tourists ignore rules or just common sense. I was shooting an iceberg on the beach in Iceland two years ago. It was a gem and I was working on a long exposure to maximix=ze the intensity of the water around it. I Chinese tourist and his girlfriend came running up in the middle of my exposure, climbed onto it and proceeded to take a selfie, in the middle of my exposure. It was very obvious I was shooting it but they must have had blinders on. I have seen this time and time again in all the places I travel. On one trip I watched a tourist throw something at a sleeping seal so it would wake up and look at him.
I believe social media has played a big part in a lot of the issues we see. People see photos on Instagram and want to claim the same one for their feed so they get likes. It's a different time today with so much of the world traveling and I am not sure it's going to change in the near future.
Kevin, I think this would be a mistake to assume that they willingly destroyed your shot. Many people have no understanding of long exposure shots and think that it is fair game to "invade" the scene if the photographer does nothing for more than 15 seconds with the camera on a tripod. Also, why would it make sense to take more than one shot or wait for the clouds to move? This is a waste of time not afforded by group travel!
Some places are so crowded that waiting in queue is unthinkable, so everyone will compete for the scene. Tourists with selfie sticks have an advantage here since they will frame a shot very narrowly next to their head and thus can move much closer to the landmark everyone seeks to photograph. The poor serious photographer which stands at the back with a tripod will be constantly overwhelmed. In such a scenario, the only solution is to take several shots with that ND1000 filter and use tourist removal techniques in post-processing. Not my definition of fun, but better than nothing if one must have that particular shot.
Cheers,
Fabien
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 20, 2018, 01:11:44 am
Post by: dreed on September 20, 2018, 11:05:47 am
The Internet doesn't do anything that travel agents and magazines and tourist boards haven't always done.
Wrong. The Internet provides an instantaneous way for people to show off where they are or have been. Travel agents and magazines are notorious for choosing moments and locations that are not easily found. It is different when your friend shows off with a picture and tells you where/how/when.
Post by: dreed on September 20, 2018, 11:16:46 am
yes, this is a major problem. we discuss this on my workshops often. Iceland has gotten so bad I have not done workshops there in 2018 and wondering if I will in the near future. Places that were untouched and had small parking lots are now paved and expended for buses. There are even waffle and coffee stands at many of them. Platforms are being built as many people are trampling down things. Many tourists ignore rules or just common sense. I was shooting an iceberg on the beach in Iceland two years ago. It was a gem and I was working on a long exposure to maximix=ze the intensity of the water around it. I Chinese tourist and his girlfriend came running up in the middle of my exposure, climbed onto it and proceeded to take a selfie, in the middle of my exposure.
...
It's not just being unaware of you but also shows complete disrespect for the environment.
Now what you may not have realised is that if you weren't there, they may not have jumped on the iceberg. On many occasions I've stopped to take photos with my tripod and subsequently turned free flowing foot traffic into lots of people stopping around me to take a photo. They don't necessarily see what I see (with framing, exposure, etc) but damnit if that guy looking professional is taking a photo then I should too.
Quote
I believe social media has played a big part in a lot of the issues we see. People see photos on Instagram and want to claim the same one for their feed so they get likes.
Bingo.
Post by: Rob C on September 21, 2018, 04:11:48 am
Wrong. The Internet provides an instantaneous way for people to show off where they are or have been. Travel agents and magazines are notorious for choosing moments and locations that are not easily found. It is different when your friend shows off with a picture and tells you where/how/when.
Okay, there is added whatever to anything, if you want to be pedantic about it.
That said, people buying travel/adventure magazines are perhaps simply looking for articles and photographs of what they consider interesting places, without having the slightest desire to go there. For me, you can firmly put the Amazon and Africa on that list. Were it not for clients' wishes, Africa woud have remaind as an entry on my places of last resort list rather on the been there, done that one.
As for the desire to post on "social media", well, that's a diagnosis of the popular state of intelligence, and off relative engagement values more than anything else. I don't use those facilities, and even as a retired person, simply keeping up on LuLa is terribly time-consuming. Spending more on other sites where there isn't even a basic common interest such as photography to provide incentive seems madness to me. I don't give a shit what somebody I don't know is doing on Tuesday morning or Friday night; why would I? As for seeing the content of his/her dinner plate, the state of their bedroom and hotel pool...
;-)
Post by: 32BT on September 21, 2018, 05:17:20 am
Or, if you don't care to learn dutch and/or read a machinetranslation, either of which i can fully understand, go directly here
https://www.theagoraphobictraveller.com
Or here
https://www.instagram.com/streetview.portraits/
Interestingly, some of it looks remarkably like what an AI implementation would spew out, and i wouldn't be at all surprised if it was some sort of secret Google experiment, if i was into conspiracy theories, that is.
Post by: Rob C on September 21, 2018, 06:57:18 am
https://www.digifotopro.nl/verbazingwekkende-fotos-gemaakt-op-3000-km-afstand
Or, if you don't care to learn dutch and/or read a machinetranslation, either of which i can fully understand, go directly here
https://www.theagoraphobictraveller.com
Or here
https://www.instagram.com/streetview.portraits/
Interestingly, some of it looks remarkably like what an AI implementation would spew out, and i wouldn't be at all surprised if it was some sort of secret Google experiment, if i was into conspiracy theories, that is.
1. You always come up with something interesting, Oscar, for which, thanks!
2. Before I knew the provenance, I was struck with the framing and eye.
3. Now that I do know that, what are the copyright implications?
Rob
Post by: 32BT on September 21, 2018, 07:29:07 am
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 22, 2018, 02:40:14 pm
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/venice-sit-down-fine/index.html
Quote
The mayor's proposal is part of the city's #EnjoyRespectVenezia campaign, which has been in full swing this summer. It's all part of a general Venetian crusade against rampant overtourism.
Post by: Rob C on September 22, 2018, 04:47:37 pm
I don't think that you can. There is always the battle between money and peace, and money wins most battles. Apparently, Venice has lost many of its original people because of the very high cost of living, and only the very wealthy can afford to rent and live there - does anybody even think of selling their goose with the ability to lay golden eggs?
Furthermore, would anybody actually want to live there if they could use it to churn out the pennies and still live just a short trip outside? I'm not so sure it can be pleasant living in the middle of a stream of traffic. At least a place like Rome or Barcelona also has space to stretch the legs a little bit and currently, at least, no worries about sea invasion every storm.
I suppose you're probably unlikely to be killed by a drunk driver, though you could always get drowned instead. Guess that's the bright side.
Rob
Post by: farbschlurf on September 23, 2018, 04:56:13 am
Obviously a lot of people don't care about that and join the crowd happily. Somehow I guess it's also a special kind of peer-pressure. Been to a hostel recently and heard conversations between those "travelers" mainly in their 20s and 30s? They really talk like they own the world and show off with that ... and thats just the young. Funny enough they all visit the same places they heard of or saw somewhere. Most wouldn't FIND a single nice spot on their own. Proof for that?: Just switch off that navigation system and drive or walk (!) in the direction of your nose and even in the most crowded places after half an hour or so you will be alone probably. I experienced this so many times. So at least you can avoid those hot-spots pretty easily.
Of course that doesn't help those places. It seems to me, the tourist locations got used up and thrown away. They really vanish. Some sooner, some later.
And yes, probably I'm "guilty" being part of the problem as well. Of course I like to see places and see something. But I see the dilemma ...
Post by: degrub on September 23, 2018, 10:04:57 am
Post by: Two23 on September 23, 2018, 10:41:46 am
The pressures are too high. They are too high in many places connected with tourism, but how do you manage that in order to create the perfect ambience, the best balance between locals and trippers?
I always wanted to go see Venice, mostly because I'm a huge Vivaldi fan. I wanted to see the church where he was resident composer (Chiesa di Santa Maria della Pietà?) and maybe even hear a concert there. I don't care what it would cost--it would be a once in lifetime for me. However, it sounds like the place is just too jammed to go. Maybe it's become one of those places that Yogi Berra was thinking of when he uttered his famous quote, "It's too crowded. Nobody goes there any more."
Vivaldi: Beatus Vir (RV 795)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xja2Kq2mLd0
Maybe the best I can do now is to go hear Alessandrini conduct Vivaldi somewhere. The power & beauty of Vivaldi's large scale choral works is something I don't want to miss! And maybe I should go to the Salzberg Mozart festival before that gets too crowded to go too.
Kent in SD
Post by: KLaban on September 23, 2018, 11:15:05 am
I always wanted to go see Venice, mostly because I'm a huge Vivaldi fan. I wanted to see the church where he was resident composer (Chiesa di Santa Maria della Pietà?) and maybe even hear a concert there. I don't care what it would cost--it would be a once in lifetime for me. However, it sounds like the place is just too jammed to go. Maybe it's become one of those places that Yogi Berra was thinking of when he uttered his famous quote, "It's too crowded. Nobody goes there any more."
Vivaldi: Beatus Vir (RV 795)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xja2Kq2mLd0
Maybe the best I can do now is to go hear Alessandrini conduct Vivaldi somewhere. The power & beauty of Vivaldi's large scale choral works is something I don't want to miss! And maybe I should go to the Salzberg Mozart festival before that gets too crowded to go too.
Kent in SD
Believe me, there are parts of the Venetian archpegilo where one could feel quite lonely.
Do go for that once in a lifetime trip, I did and enjoyed it so much I had to repeat it, three times!
Post by: dreed on September 23, 2018, 08:34:39 pm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2016-03-24/sea-lake-chinese-tourism-drought-grain-rural-environment-water/7272248
- the "me too" copying nature of Chinese wanting to make a photo like they've seen
- the habits of the "me too" tourist being unaware of their surrounds (and getting bogged)
- ignoring signs warning of life threatening danger for the sake of phtotographs
- rubbish building up left behind by tourists (the "death" of nature)
Post by: FabienP on September 26, 2018, 05:33:45 pm
This story captures many of the problems:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2016-03-24/sea-lake-chinese-tourism-drought-grain-rural-environment-water/7272248
- the "me too" copying nature of Chinese wanting to make a photo like they've seen
- the habits of the "me too" tourist being unaware of their surrounds (and getting bogged)
- ignoring signs warning of life threatening danger for the sake of phtotographs
- rubbish building up left behind by tourists (the "death" of nature)
Spot on! I particularly like this quote from the article:
"... the task of educating a population of 1.4 billion people is a challenge."
Cheers,
Fabien
Post by: Dave Rosser on September 29, 2018, 02:48:11 am
I always wanted to go see Venice, mostly because I'm a huge Vivaldi fan. I wanted to see the church where he was resident composer (Chiesa di Santa Maria della Pietà?) and maybe even hear a concert there. I don't care what it would cost--it would be a once in lifetime for me. However, it sounds like the place is just too jammed to go. Maybe it's become one of those places that Yogi Berra was thinking of when he uttered his famous quote, "It's too crowded. Nobody goes there any more."
Vivaldi: Beatus Vir (RV 795)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xja2Kq2mLd0
Maybe the best I can do now is to go hear Alessandrini conduct Vivaldi somewhere. The power & beauty of Vivaldi's large scale choral works is something I don't want to miss! And maybe I should go to the Salzberg Mozart festival before that gets too crowded to go too.
Kent in AS
Oh you just have to go at right time of year
https://www.david-rosser.com/venice-in-winter
and
https://www.david-rosser.com/venice-by-night
give you the idea though that was 4 years ago and times change.
Post by: kers on September 29, 2018, 04:51:17 am
The second time i was there shortly in the eary morning say 7 am- it was very nice to walk in the sleeping city.
The third time i came for the Biennale. It was a very nice way to be there.
The combination of art and the city works well and you have a good reason to see all the parts of the city,
some are very quiet. BTW the fishing village chioggia in the laguna is worth a visit too.
I live in Amsterdam and the last years the inner city is reaal crowded with tourist.
Even a selfie is not possible ;)
Post by: Two23 on September 29, 2018, 11:47:41 am
Kent in SD
Post by: luxborealis on September 29, 2018, 08:23:08 pm
Post by: Two23 on September 30, 2018, 12:48:01 am
Sad, but it can’t be helped. Or can it? Why not go out there and try NOT to do what’s already been done?
My wife & I enjoy finding spots on the map that look interesting, but don't have much about them on the internet. Banks Island (Canadian Arctic) was one of those places. Moosonee (James Bay, Canada) was another. We've been to Glacier NP a number of times, and each time there are more visitors there than the time before. For the first time we went hiking in North Cascades NP and barely saw anyone else on the popular trails. The scenery was every bit as great as Glacier! Mt. Rainier NP was basically a big long traffic jam when we went (twice last year,) so last August we spent a couple of days in an area to the east few even in Seattle/Redmond had ever heard of--the Scab Lands. I could spend a week wandering around Dry Falls State Park with my 5x7 Gundlach Korona and a couple of boxes of FP4. There was one other visitor during the entire afternoon we were there. There is a world full of "undiscovered" places out there, I think. :)
Kent in SD
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 05, 2018, 07:24:09 pm
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/thailand-is-closing-its-iconic-bay-from-the-beach-after-a-temporary-pause-in-visitors-wasnt-enough-to-repair-destruction-by-tourists?utm_source=Facebook%20Videos&utm_medium=Facebook%20Videos&utm_campaign=Facebook%20Video%20Blogs
Post by: Rob C on October 06, 2018, 04:36:49 am
"Thailand is closing its iconic bay from 'The Beach' indefinitely to repair destruction by tourists"
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/thailand-is-closing-its-iconic-bay-from-the-beach-after-a-temporary-pause-in-visitors-wasnt-enough-to-repair-destruction-by-tourists?utm_source=Facebook%20Videos&utm_medium=Facebook%20Videos&utm_campaign=Facebook%20Video%20Blogs
There's a greater question: what turns so many people into compulsive lemmings?
It's really difficult to understand why one would be so drawn to a place - any place - simply because it has attracted others in high numbers. I feel no desire to stand in front of the White House; the Grand Canyon would only make me feel queasy, and Venice would freak me out. London could have been an attraction during the 60s because of work-related things, but otherwise, nope. We lived just outside of it during the war... Paris, well, as with London, if I were young, single and still fired with enthusiasm about a photographic career.
My lawyer granddaughter went to Mexico, Peru, Machu Picchu, the Amazon and all I could wonder was why the exposure to pointless (to me) risk, why the discomfort? Why the snap beside a tarantula on a tree? I shall never understand the equation there between reward and cost.
I do understand the desire to visit a place about which one may have read a deep history, that represents the physical side of a research project, a historical obsession or something like that; Arles comes to mind because of its painter association. Sandals, the upmarket holiday company, has recently been advertising itself by pushing the number of international restaurants that one can enjoy within one small place in Barbados; to which inner demon is that an address?
Rob
Post by: KLaban on October 06, 2018, 05:49:36 am
There's a greater question: what turns so many people into compulsive lemmings?
It's really difficult to understand why one would be so drawn to a place - any place - simply because it has attracted others in high numbers. I feel no desire to stand in front of the White House; the Grand Canyon would only make me feel queasy, and Venice would freak me out. London could have been an attraction during the 60s because of work-related things, but otherwise, nope. We lived just outside of it during the war... Paris, well, as with London, if I were young, single and still fired with enthusiasm about a photographic career.
My lawyer granddaughter went to Mexico, Peru, Machu Picchu, the Amazon and all I could wonder was why the exposure to pointless (to me) risk, why the discomfort? Why the snap beside a tarantula on a tree? I shall never understand the equation there between reward and cost.
I do understand the desire to visit a place about which one may have read a deep history, that represents the physical side of a research project, a historical obsession or something like that; Arles comes to mind because of its painter association. Sandals, the upmarket holiday company, has recently been advertising itself by pushing the number of international restaurants that one can enjoy within one small place in Barbados; to which inner demon is that an address?
Rob
And there, perhaps, lies the answer. People are drawn to these extraordinary places despite the tourist numbers, not because of them.
Generally I will go out of my way - and in doing so go out of other folks way - to find my own destinations and locations: hence isolated Greek islands. My joy in India was not seeing the Taj alongside thousands of others but was walking the streets of the smaller, lesser known villages, towns and cities - thankfully free of other tourists - and interacting with the people. Even within areas of high tourist density it's possible to find one's own nirvana. But I do make exceptions. Venice was an exception, her beauty was such that I admit to being moved to tears, the crowds, the hustle and bustle a part of the fun.
Rob, perhaps being marooned on an isolated island for a quarter of a century has dulled your wanderlust?
;-)
Post by: Two23 on October 06, 2018, 11:24:54 am
Generally I will go out of my way - and in doing so go out of other folks way - to find my own destinations and locations...
I live in a "tourist" state--the one with Mt. Rushmore (mountain with four carved heads of presidents.) Most all of the tourists do flock to the "heads" and the Badlands NP. Regional tourists flock to the Custer State Park, mostly for it's world class wildlife. That gives me the rest of this huge Western state to wander about in. Often I'm the only human for several miles. I've seen things no tourist ever will. When my wife & I retire we plan on either renting or buying a small RV (such as a Sprinter) and just aimlessly roam the Northern Plains, even up into Canada. Talk about undiscovered vistas........
Kent in SD
Post by: Rob C on October 06, 2018, 02:45:04 pm
And there, perhaps, lies the answer. People are drawn to these extraordinary places despite the tourist numbers, not because of them.
Generally I will go out of my way - and in doing so go out of other folks way - to find my own destinations and locations: hence isolated Greek islands. My joy in India was not seeing the Taj alongside thousands of others but was walking the streets of the smaller, lesser known villages, towns and cities - thankfully free of other tourists - and interacting with the people. Even within areas of high tourist density it's possible to find one's own nirvana. But I do make exceptions. Venice was an exception, her beauty was such that I admit to being moved to tears, the crowds, the hustle and bustle a part of the fun.
Rob, perhaps being marooned on an isolated island for a quarter of a century has dulled your wanderlust?
;-)
Longer than that by twelve years!
However, it didn't damage my wanderlust at all: we used to ferry to Barcelona, and drive up through Andorra sometimes, or take the longer eastern Spanish coastal route to France and on to Calais (eventually, Zebrugge (?) on our last trip pre-heart attack, which ended all that once and for all). Loved every minute of it, and we used the non-motorway routes mostly, though we also tried them out too, and they were superb.
We went, usually in September and were back in Mallorca in earlyish November. The buzz, getting onto the southbound motorway in Calais en route towards Abbeville, looking at those modern art sports silhouettes (I remember them as white) planted on the side of the road was always my spiritual confirmation, telling me that I belonged to the south. If there was a tearful moment of joy, that was it. Got the same migratory feeling before we used to leave for home, driving through Perthshire in the rain, looking at the geese flying in for the season with the same migratory compulsion... some years we did the trip twice, leaving here in April.
I often felt like returning to France on my own, but knew it would just crack me up even more than doing nothing.
There remain two options: if the lottery comes up, I just close the apartment and drive away and do a grand tour of the Relais & Châteaux offerings and buy myself a place in Scotland; the other option, if I simply manage to sell up without any lottery bonus, then I drive back anyway, drifting, and if it all goes pear-shaped somewhere in France due to health, I don't give a fuck anyway - the finances will have been cleared up for the kids and that will be that. On the other hand, the wrong kind of Brexit will possibly have screwed even that possibilty of smooth, medical sailing.
So no, not lost the urge, just the circumstances to make it worthwhile again.
It was one of the downers of last month, knowing I should really be half of a couple heading north on another road trip.
To anyone thinking of putting off life "for when we retire" you are crazy: you never know what's gonna hit you next week, never mind in the years ahead. That chance may never arrive. I regret a very few things I have done, but for sure some that I did not whilst I had the chance.
Post by: KLaban on October 06, 2018, 03:05:25 pm
Health problems have been my kick up the arse to get out there and travel all the more, but there again I realise I'm fortunate in being able to do so. What better way to go than caught in flagrante!
Post by: Rob C on October 06, 2018, 05:02:21 pm
Travel and photography are my mistresses. I'm never quite sure which is more important but I'm certain that one would be all the poorer without the other.
Health problems have been my kick up the arse to get out there and travel all the more, but there again I realise I'm fortunate in being able to do so. What better way to go than caught in flagrante!
Whoa, Trigger! Can you imagine what an anticlimax that would deliver? Far better to do it in your sleep a couple of hours later. Better yet, not at all.
:-)
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 07, 2018, 03:34:48 pm
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 07, 2018, 03:45:43 pm
Post by: LesPalenik on October 07, 2018, 11:21:41 pm
(https://d.newsweekgroup.com/en/full/750/taking-selfies-can-distort-your-facial-features-according-new-study.jpg)
Post by: Ivo_B on October 08, 2018, 12:29:24 pm
"Venice tourists could be hit with $580 fine for sitting down"Venice......
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/venice-sit-down-fine/index.html
Some years ago I was heavily occupied photographing abandoned places.
On one of our trips, near the 3 land point of Belgium, Luxembourg and France, we entered a closed cement factory. Cement factories are utterly boring (breakers, bunkers and silo's), so our expectation was not high.
We followed the old rail track for few hundred meters and then walked into the facilities. When we passed a bunker we bounced into a huge scaffold contraption, closed with timber. We walked a tour around the contraption, it was huge, and suddenly, I spotted a door. I turned my head to call my friends and walked through the door.
Huge was my surprise when I turned my head back to where a was walking, I was standing in the middle of Venice.
We discovered a filmdecor build on an open spot in that abandoned factory. Not sure what movie, but it certainly reminded us to the second Lara Croft game. Imagine our reaction when we heard dogs barking and we saw a guard approaching with two doberman dogs on a line.
We managed to take some shot before we got kicked out...........
At least we can say, we visited Venice without tourists.....
Post by: MattBurt on October 08, 2018, 01:17:34 pm
In a global culture of constant economic growth, this is a very difficult balance to keep. People accuse each other of either being a no-growth curmudgeon job killer or a pro growth money-grubbing destroyer of what we love. It's hard to find middle ground.
Vail just completed their acquisition of the local ski area Crested Butte, so the feeling is we are on the cusp of another big growth surge. We have worker shortages and the workers we have can't afford to live here. The NIMBYs vote down affordable housing and it seems like this is going to get worse before it gets better.
I wish we could just hold steady and not have so much growth, but not growing is considered the same as dying from an economic standpoint so we can't have that either. It's hard living in paradise!
Post by: Alan Klein on October 08, 2018, 03:37:56 pm
I live in a place where the tourist economy is a big part of our livelihood. It used to be coal mining and I'd prefer tourists but not too many!
In a global culture of constant economic growth, this is a very difficult balance to keep. People accuse each other of either being a no-growth curmudgeon job killer or a pro growth money-grubbing destroyer of what we love. It's hard to find middle ground.
Vail just completed their acquisition of the local ski area Crested Butte, so the feeling is we are on the cusp of another big growth surge. We have worker shortages and the workers we have can't afford to live here. The NIMBYs vote down affordable housing and it seems like this is going to get worse before it gets better.
I wish we could just hold steady and not have so much growth, but not growing is considered the same as dying from an economic standpoint so we can't have that either. It's hard living in paradise!
It's not just paradise. My wife and I retired from NYC to farm country in New Jersey. 55+ community. In 5 years, so much of the land has been gobbled up here by real estate developers. Plus property taxes already went up 20%. It's mainly bedroom community - not commercial. So it's not that we have ugly strip malls, well we do have those as well, it's just that all the nice farm land and horse ranches are going, one of the reasons we picked this area to retire. Not that I've taken up farming or own a horse; just like to look at them when I drive around.
Post by: MattBurt on October 08, 2018, 04:21:25 pm
Post by: Alan Klein on October 08, 2018, 04:34:45 pm
We have an organization here that helps preserve the open spaces and views called the Crested Butte Land Trust. It's done some great things for preservation and maintaining traditional ranches which keeps the place looking like what most of us came for. But the flipside to that is they are buying land and setting it aside from development so that isn;t helping the affordable housing issue. That being said I support the CBLT (https://www.cblandtrust.org/) and contribute images to their popular calendar and other efforts each year.
We have required affordable housing when they build more expensive units as well, all with lots of school age kids. Frankly, we're getting killed on our property taxes because there's little commercial businesses paying taxes here. So 65% of my property taxes go for schools paid for by people like myself who are retired with no kids living here. We've tried to get developers to commit or be required to subsidize their develope to pay for the increase school costs. But the courts have ruled against us in their favor. Be careful what you wish for. Keeping things the way they are has lots of advantages.
Post by: Rob C on October 08, 2018, 04:59:03 pm
I have been saying that for decades and still believe that we are both right. I look at the changes and all I see is that we have developed new toys, new distractions to prevent us thinking about our lives, and that the important things have been crushed under the heel of political and commercial pressure to expand, expand, and bloody expand, producing more and more rubbish and making the basic essentials ever more difficult to attain.
Just today Sky News had an interview with an economist who pointed out that the number of young people who will never be able to get onto the first rung of the home-ownership ladder has rocketed in the last ten to fifteen years, with about 40% doomed to forever earning too little to pay a mortgage even if they can scrape together a 10% deposit to kick it off.
Property prices and earnings have sped ever further out of synch. But hey, a new toy will make all of the disenfranchised feel so much better.
It didn't have to be this way, just as the Maldives didn't have to drown and Miami become Atlantis.
Rob
Post by: MattBurt on October 08, 2018, 05:28:21 pm
I guess the key is to choose your battles.
Post by: KLaban on October 08, 2018, 05:40:48 pm
;-)
Post by: Rob C on October 09, 2018, 08:04:16 am
But fighting to resist inevitable change is is futile and makes people miserable.
I guess the key is to choose your battles.
If that change is man-made, then it is not inevitable.
I firmly believe that a major part of it is, indeed, our own fault, fault originally spawned from ignorance of implications of modern acts, and later perpetuated from the deliberate turning of blind eyes to reality for the sake of agendas not entirely altruistic.
Choosing only battles that can be won but losing a war for survival because of that act of cowardice is not laudable.
Rob
Post by: jim t on October 15, 2018, 01:40:10 pm
I had my OPEN camera bag picked up by a tourist while I was shooting a waterfall this week. Unfortunately the mobs of people are making serine places a hampered experience. I can only suggest to have mindful respect and leave no trace so current and future visitors will enjoy these spaces without the ignorance of others interfering.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 15, 2018, 09:44:08 pm
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2142594/chinese-tourists-kill-kangaroo-hurling-bricks-make-it-hop
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 15, 2018, 09:44:32 pm
How Asian Social Media Transformed a Quiet U.K. Walking Spot -NY Times 10-13-2018...
Link?