Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: tintoreto on September 05, 2018, 02:30:38 pm

Title: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: tintoreto on September 05, 2018, 02:30:38 pm
https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r-system/
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Rajan Parrikar on September 05, 2018, 03:39:46 pm
https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r-system/

A me-too! dud by Canon. No 50+ MP sensor, no IBIS, no eye AF.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 05, 2018, 03:54:42 pm
There is eye AF but in single shot mode only.  Kind of clunky.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: guido on September 05, 2018, 04:07:58 pm
I don't think it is too bad at the price point. Given how it is targeted to the A7III and Z6, I think it is a fine opening bid. Someone suggested it was a 6D mk III. As a business decision that is a highly profitable segment, I'm sure they will sell a lot more of these than a high megapixel version.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: mistymoon on September 06, 2018, 07:27:51 am
The big news with this announcement is not this camera, but the new lens mount that will become the Canon standard for the next 25 years. From now on, there will be few new EF lenses, and development will concentrate on the RF line. There is backwards compatibility with the EF lenses and the new cameras, but I suspect that development of new EOS SLR cameras will end.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: faberryman on September 06, 2018, 07:35:18 am
The big news with this announcement is not this camera, but the new lens mount that will become the Canon standard for the next 25 years. From now on, there will be few new EF lenses, and development will concentrate on the RF line. There is backwards compatibility with the EF lenses and the new cameras, but I suspect that development of new EOS SLR cameras will end.
The 400 and 600 EF lenses were announced simultaneously, so maybe not.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 06, 2018, 07:57:26 am
Hi,

I am shooting, Sony A7rII with Canon lenses, I wouldn't rule out switching to Canon R. Wait and see what future holds in it's bay.

Best regards
Erik


https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r-system/
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: nemophoto on September 06, 2018, 10:17:09 pm
Shooting with Canon for over 35 years, I can safely say the modus operandi has been to experiment with amateur to pro-am bodies before releasing a pro body with the latest features. This was the case when they switched from FD-mount cameras to autofocus EF bodies. (The EOS 620 and 630 came before the EOS-1. My much beloved EOS3 was considered the equivalent of the 5D.) Then again when first introducing digital (remember, the D30 came before the EOS-1D). I think this is what you are seeing now. Is everything the latest and greatest? No. But I wouldn't expect that either based on the track record.

This said, I'm not a huge fan of mirrorless bodies. I hate the technology in fact. I don't see where it really propels photography forward in a significant way. I lament that the new 50 is an RF. I hate looking at "mini-TV screens" -- it feels yet another step removed from my subject (though Kevin said it's "almost DSLR-like"). But, that's my perspective. One day I may eat my words and own one for more than plinking around, but for now, DSLRs are my tool. I think this is a good start. I'm willing to see where they go.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: adri on September 07, 2018, 08:13:15 am

This said, I'm not a huge fan of mirrorless bodies. I hate the technology in fact. I don't see where it really propels photography forward in a significant way. I lament that the new 50 is an RF. I hate looking at "mini-TV screens" -- it feels yet another step removed from my subject (though Kevin said it's "almost DSLR-like"). But, that's my perspective. One day I may eat my words and own one for more than plinking around, but for now, DSLRs are my tool. I think this is a good start. I'm willing to see where they go.

There is a resurgence of vinyl records over CDs.
There is a resurgence of film over digital.
I predict a resurgence of mirror over mirrorless, at some point in the not too distant future?



Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2018, 09:56:42 am
There is a resurgence of vinyl records over CDs.
There is a resurgence of film over digital.
I predict a resurgence of mirror over mirrorless, at some point in the not too distant future?

Well... most vinyls are pressed from digital masters... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: nemophoto on September 07, 2018, 12:50:41 pm
If manufacturers find it cheaper and easier to make mirrorless, they will abandon DSLRs. But, the interesting thing is that not unlike LPs vs CDs, film is making a comeback (witness Kodak reintroducing both Super 8mm and Ektachrome) or the resurgence of Polaroid cameras -- true Polaroids like the SX70 (though not like the original 669 etc.). But not unlike those developments, maybe DSLRs become the niche market. One question which begs asking: how does the mirrorless revolution affect front and back focus issues since you are focusing directly on the sensor?


Give me mirrors or give me death!
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on September 07, 2018, 01:37:39 pm
If manufacturers find it cheaper and easier to make mirrorless, they will abandon DSLRs. But, the interesting thing is that not unlike LPs vs CDs, film is making a comeback (witness Kodak reintroducing both Super 8mm and Ektachrome) or the resurgence of Polaroid cameras -- true Polaroids like the SX70 (though not like the original 669 etc.). But not unlike those developments, maybe DSLRs become the niche market. One question which begs asking: how does the mirrorless revolution affect front and back focus issues since you are focusing directly on the sensor?


Give me mirrors or give me death!

If you had a lens with a large aperture that shifts focus when the aperture is closed for a shot, it would impact focus, but you would gain dof closing down so in some cases no issue...

Canon appear to have allowed their new R series to AF wide open. It is possible that focal shift with aperture change is a design consideration in the lenses, so they are confident there will be no issue...

Nikon close down to aperture value while performing AF to match the release aperture, but stop closing at f/5.6 to give enough light to the sensor pre shutter release when the aperture will then finally close to the shooting value on shutter release... A concern with this approach is they are stealing light from the sensor for AF operation. It is possible although unlikely, they have done this due to lens designs not limited to focal shift freeing the designers to focus on sharpness and other design factors. It is more likely a feature for dof visualisation, but even that reason alone would be strange given the impact on AF...

Lenses are lenses so assuming Nikon are not restricted for any lens reason, we may see either a firmware tweak or new models that do not do this...

Hopefully we will get more clarity on this...

One other consideration is lenses with very soft off axis performance, that may hinder AF at the extreme edges. Easy to live with and not typical of modern lenses...

Other than that, if you are AF sensing at pixel level as per Canon, then it should be very accurate. Reviews of the R seemed impressed with the speed and accuracy, including eye AF which one reviewer has suggested will get a firmware upgrade to continuous mode. Currently one shot only. I expect the next gen Canon R's will have very fast tracking and eye AF. At the moment it would be wishful thinking to expect firmware alone to improve it, but who knows... It does have the fasted full frame AF in any case due to the new RF lens body data exchange. Something that Canons competition will find hard to compete with in the long run...
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Zave Smith on September 10, 2018, 03:46:45 pm
Interesting camera but not having dual memory cards is a deal breaker for me.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: JaapD on September 11, 2018, 02:07:49 am
I really donít understand this deal breaker issue. Is it for size or reliability? Storage size should be no problem anymore these days. Another thing could be reliability but one should not have any reliability issues here in the first place. Would you accept your laptop only to be reliable if it needs to be installed with two SSDís?

Iím very picky on selecting card brands, some have indeed a worse reputation than others. I myself have never experienced any card failures what so ever. In my opinion youíre statistically speaking way better off in choosing a reliable card brand than having two card doors (only gaining a factor of 2 in reliability).
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 11, 2018, 02:24:29 am
I really donít understand this deal breaker issue. Is it for size or reliability? Storage size should be no problem anymore these days. Another thing could be reliability but one should not have any reliability issues here in the first place. Would you accept your laptop only to be reliable if it needs to be installed with two SSDís?

Iím very picky on selecting card brands, some have indeed a worse reputation than others. I myself have never experienced any card failures what so ever. In my opinion youíre statistically speaking way better off in choosing a reliable card brand than having two card doors (only gaining a factor of 2 in reliability).

Frankly, I have serious doubts about the single XQD slot on the Z7 and that made me very seriously hesitate although it is otherwise a no brainer for my situation. But at least XQD cards have never failed me over hundreds of thousands of images with my D5 and D850.

But I would personally definitely not trust a single SD. Those cards are just too unreliable and I have on average experienced one or two failure per year (Lexar or Sandisk). I may have been unlucky and my experience may not be representative of the reliability of SD cards. But I would not shoot anything remotely important with a camera featuring only one SD, whatever the brand.

The SSD of my laptop is backuped professionally on a daily basis, all my images are on Raid 6 arrays backed up to other raid 6 arrays.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 11, 2018, 02:36:08 am
My view Bernard is single slot is no problem for me but quite clearly both Nikon and Canon screwed up with this because for many people it is an issue.

Now I have to ask myself. Did Nikon and Canon just miss this basic thing or did they analyze their markets with focus groups and all the rest and decide that it was irrelevant? Is this camera not aimed at the type of people on this forum and all over YouTube. Are they expecting to sell mostly to eastern markets for example and do those markets feel differently about dual card slots? The single card slots seem to be the biggest issue here for most people. For me itís Canons lack of IBIS.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 11, 2018, 03:01:36 am
My view Bernard is single slot is no problem for me but quite clearly both Nikon and Canon screwed up with this because for many people it is an issue.

Now I have to ask myself. Did Nikon and Canon just miss this basic thing or did they analyze their markets with focus groups and all the rest and decide that it was irrelevant? Is this camera not aimed at the type of people on this forum and all over YouTube. Are they expecting to sell mostly to eastern markets for example and do those markets feel differently about dual card slots? The single card slots seem to be the biggest issue here for most people. For me itís Canons lack of IBIS.

I feel that Canon never really targeted the R for serious shooters, specwise it is basically a 6DII mirrorless body. A single card may be fine for casual shooting. Canon's marketing has also done a better job at controlling the reactions from the youtube vloggers about this aspect.

On the other hand Nikon has positioned and speced the Z7 as a mirrorless D850, at least on everything except the 2 cards. Either they mis-positionned the camera, or they messed up the marketing message, or both.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: 32BT on September 11, 2018, 04:19:02 am
Wouldn't be surprised if it was a simple designdecision early on:
Marketing: we need ML, and it needs to be compact
Engineering: sure, with one slot we can make it really compact and save batterylife, but it won't be pro
Marketing: no problem, pros don't do compact, they need sturdy balance reliability ruggedness weathersealing double card slot, but the last thing they care about is compact.
Engineering: check


Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Rado on September 11, 2018, 05:22:59 am
Yup I don't care if it has one card slot. I've never used more than one card at the same time even in the bodies that had two slots. I wonder how many people even thought about using two cards before the youtube "celebrities" bitched about it endlessly. Youtubers make money when you click their affiliate links, not by selling their photos so what do they care? The lack of IBIS is more annoying but still not a deal breaker.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: chez on September 11, 2018, 09:18:21 am
For me IBIS is an feature I use every single day and would never purchase another camera without it. It has allowed me to take better images on many occasions during travel photigraphy when the light is dim. Sure one can raise the ISO, but many of my shots are already at 6400 with IBIS.

Don't understand Canon not including IBIS nor what Fuji is thinking with their new camera. Big duh moments.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 11, 2018, 09:50:52 am
Lack of IBIS on the Canon amazes me
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: nemophoto on September 11, 2018, 11:00:01 am
Canon feels their ďper lensĒ strategy and targeting specific lens for stabilization is better than ďone size fits allĒ IBIS.

When AF was first evolving, Nikon decided to place the AF in the body. Canon felt individual AF in each lens, with the motor optimized for the torque needed for each lens (e.g. - 300/2.8 versus 50/1.4) was superior. Guess who won that battle? I feel IBIS is something Sony fan boys have pushed because they have it. In reality, from what Iíve read, thereís no real difference. But I DO feel IS needed for 200mm will be inherently different from whatís needed for 35mm. I donít believe (and of course I could be wrong) that you can have IS optimized for both. Itís more like ďsort of goodĒ for both. But, hey, I guess better to have some IS than none at all.

As for the card slot, 100% of the time on jobs, I never use a 2nd card. I use both card slots for my own personal shooting maybe 2% of the time. If anything, I would have preferred a CF or CFast slot. I hate SD cards. I own about 40 CF cards (32GB down to 4GB) which I bring on shoots. I treat a card like a roll of film, so each new shot has its own card. If something goes wrong (since 2001, Iíve only had about 5 or 6 cards go bad) I donít want it taking the rest of my shots. The prospect of bulking up on SD cards bothers me.


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Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: mbaginy on September 11, 2018, 11:02:44 am
Lack of IBIS on the Canon amazes me
I imagine that it's down to cost and targeted sale's price.  Marketing usually created a list of functions as well as target price.  Engineering and Marketing discuss pros & cons of various features as well the cost effect.  In the end, it's usually Marketing who has the final say, what to leave out of a certain model.  Engineering would usually love to incorporate as many features as possible, but the camera also needs to be (financially) attractive to that market segment to which an item is intended.

I've seen this countless times in the automotive industry and it probably hold true in most businesses.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 11, 2018, 11:18:46 am
Canon feels their ďper lensĒ strategy and targeting specific lens for stabilization is better than ďone size fits allĒ IBIS.

When AF was first evolving, Nikon decided to place the AF in the body. Canon felt individual AF in each lens, with the motor optimized for the torque needed for each lens (e.g. - 300/2.8 versus 50/1.4) was superior. Guess who won that battle? I feel IBIS is something Sony fan boys have pushed because they have it. In reality, from what Iíve read, thereís no real difference. But I DO feel IS needed for 200mm will be inherently different from whatís needed for 35mm. I donít believe (and of course I could be wrong) that you can have IS optimized for both. Itís more like ďsort of goodĒ for both. But, hey, I guess better to have some IS than none at all.

As for the card slot, 100% of the time on jobs, I never use a 2nd card. I use both card slots for my own personal shooting maybe 2% of the time. If anything, I would have preferred a CF or CFast slot. I hate SD cards. I own about 40 CF cards (32GB down to 4GB) which I bring on shoots. I treat a card like a roll of film, so each new shot has its own card. If something goes wrong (since 2001, Iíve only had about 5 or 6 cards go bad) I donít want it taking the rest of my shots. The prospect of bulking up on SD cards bothers me.


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I have seen this argument about IBIS not working well because what is required for a 200mm lens is different to what is required for a 24mm lens. Are you aware that the IBIS adjusts for the focal length of the lens? Does so automatically. Also when using a legacy lens such as with my 500mm mirror lens I set the focal length manually as the camera isnít able to pick it up but it adjust one I give it the instructions.

You may call it fanboyism if you wish but I have worked with and without IBIS and know how much it helps with unstabilised lenses. Also that when the combination of a stabilized lens is used with IBIS how the lens handling some axis of motion while the sensor handles others is better that lens IS alone.

I traded up the 6300 to a 6500 to get a IBIS on the APSC platform after seeing how good it was on the FF camera.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: chez on September 11, 2018, 02:02:18 pm
Canon feels their ďper lensĒ strategy and targeting specific lens for stabilization is better than ďone size fits allĒ IBIS.

When AF was first evolving, Nikon decided to place the AF in the body. Canon felt individual AF in each lens, with the motor optimized for the torque needed for each lens (e.g. - 300/2.8 versus 50/1.4) was superior. Guess who won that battle? I feel IBIS is something Sony fan boys have pushed because they have it. In reality, from what Iíve read, thereís no real difference. But I DO feel IS needed for 200mm will be inherently different from whatís needed for 35mm. I donít believe (and of course I could be wrong) that you can have IS optimized for both. Itís more like ďsort of goodĒ for both. But, hey, I guess better to have some IS than none at all.

As for the card slot, 100% of the time on jobs, I never use a 2nd card. I use both card slots for my own personal shooting maybe 2% of the time. If anything, I would have preferred a CF or CFast slot. I hate SD cards. I own about 40 CF cards (32GB down to 4GB) which I bring on shoots. I treat a card like a roll of film, so each new shot has its own card. If something goes wrong (since 2001, Iíve only had about 5 or 6 cards go bad) I donít want it taking the rest of my shots. The prospect of bulking up on SD cards bothers me.


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Yes for telephotos lens based IS is better than IBIS...but the best overall is lens based IS working together with IBIS. As far as Canon is concerned...they only care about their pockets...charging a premium for ever lens with IS. It's interesting to see Nikon include IBIS into their mirrorless cameras and they also make lenses with built in IS...just like Sony.

From a consumer I see zero negatives with IBIS and many positives. From Canon's view...all they see if $$$$.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: chez on September 11, 2018, 02:03:50 pm
I imagine that it's down to cost and targeted sale's price.  Marketing usually created a list of functions as well as target price.  Engineering and Marketing discuss pros & cons of various features as well the cost effect.  In the end, it's usually Marketing who has the final say, what to leave out of a certain model.  Engineering would usually love to incorporate as many features as possible, but the camera also needs to be (financially) attractive to that market segment to which an item is intended.

I've seen this countless times in the automotive industry and it probably hold true in most businesses.

Well IBIS is available in many cameras priced much lower than Canon's new mirrorless cameras...so I highly doubt it's a cost issue.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: nemophoto on September 11, 2018, 02:55:10 pm
From what Iíve read, itís not about cost. Itís about design philosophy. Canon feels lens based IS is better than IBIS. (Shall we call it LBIS ?) From what I have also read, you arenít suppose to use both IS AND IBIS at the same time ó they fight each other for control. So it doesnít really matter that Sony and Nikon have both lens and body-based stabilization. If Sony feels so strongly about IBIS, why go to the expense of putting it into a lens as well?


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Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 11, 2018, 03:16:03 pm
From what Iíve read, itís not about cost. Itís about design philosophy. Canon feels lens based IS is better than IBIS. (Shall we call it LBIS ?) From what I have also read, you arenít suppose to use both IS AND IBIS at the same time ó they fight each other for control. So it doesnít really matter that Sony and Nikon have both lens and body-based stabilization. If Sony feels so strongly about IBIS, why go to the expense of putting it into a lens as well?


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Of course they donít fight each other. Itís an electronic camera not an arm wrestling competition. The camera senses the presence of a lens with IS and some functions are handed off to the lens and some are managed by IBIS. Itís all carefully negotiated to give the best results. Itís not a fight at all.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: nemophoto on September 11, 2018, 03:23:17 pm
Of course they donít fight each other. Itís an electronic camera not an arm wrestling competition. The camera senses the presence of a lens with IS and some functions are handed off to the lens and some are managed by IBIS. Itís all carefully negotiated to give the best results. Itís not a fight at all.

Not entirely true. It's the same reason you DON'T want IS when you are attached to a tripod. They don't work in tandem nicely from what I read. Of course, the article could have been full of bull, but it makes sense if the body is saying one thing and the lens is doing something else. You get double correction, not unlike sending an image to the printer, using an ICC profile in LR or PS, but forgetting to turn off the printer's built-in profile. Color looks like crap. If you want to show a sample image that shows otherwise, be my guest. You may be correct. I can't do that myself since I lack bodies with IS.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 11, 2018, 03:31:03 pm
The lens handles three axis of stabilization and the IBIS handles the other two. Itís well documented. Give Google a go. Iím certainly not going to shoot a bunch of test shots to demo this. Itís nothing at all like double colour management at all.
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on September 11, 2018, 03:37:14 pm
Don't panic, Canon doesn't discard IBIS. We just must go on complaining about it not being included in the R:

https://www.canonrumors.com/interview-talking-with-canon-about-the-eos-r-system-and-its-future/ (https://www.canonrumors.com/interview-talking-with-canon-about-the-eos-r-system-and-its-future/)

"Canon didnít put IBIS in the body this round due to concerns about size, heat and cost, but may look to add it to future Canon EOS R bodies."

That 28-70 f/2 deserves IBIS:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/ibis.jpg)

Regards
Title: Re: Canon R - Mirrorless
Post by: Rado on September 11, 2018, 04:28:18 pm
Yeah I think a future body from Canon will have IBIS when they figure out the price/engineering costs for it. It's the same with the 4K video crop. I believe they simply don't have the tech to offer uncropped full frame 4K video at this point of time, instead of withholding it from customers out of spite. That's the price they pay for developing own sensors.