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Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Kevin Raber on September 05, 2018, 08:03:24 am

Title: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 05, 2018, 08:03:24 am
I just published an article on the launch of the NEW Canon EOS R camera.  I'm in Hawaii and will spend a few days shooting with this new camera.  Read the article and watch the video HERE (https://luminous-landscape.com/canon-eos-r-camera-launched/)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 05, 2018, 10:05:03 am
What does the “R” stand for?

Reflex?

miRRoR?

Retro (as in prior to mirrors)?
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Luis M. Anibarro on September 05, 2018, 10:17:07 am
What does the “R” stand for?

Reflex?

miRRoR?

Retro (as in prior to mirrors)?

Should be an U for unwanted , same as Nikon  ;)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Zathras on September 05, 2018, 11:28:06 am
I just published an article on the launch of the NEW Canon EOS R camera.  I'm in Hawaii and will spend a few days shooting with this new camera.  Read the article and watch the video HERE (https://luminous-landscape.com/canon-eos-r-camera-launched/)

I'm curious why there would be zero coverage of the Nikon Z series, and then wham! Canon intros this new system and the place lights up and gets all excited. How could this serve users' needs when one system gets the cold shoulder while the other gets a top of the page accolade?

I say that as a user of Canon pro gear for the past 18 years. (21 years before that was Leica.) I don't like this kind of lack of balance. Not sure I can continue to support this site any more.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on September 05, 2018, 11:37:31 am
I'm curious why there would be zero coverage of the Nikon Z series, and then wham! Canon intros this new system and the place lights up and gets all excited...

You are mistaken. Check this out. (https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/my-thoughts-on-the-new-nikon-z6-and-z7-cameras/) The reasons for the apparent lack of coverage are quite simple.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 05, 2018, 11:43:46 am
I'm curious why there would be zero coverage of the Nikon Z series, and then wham! Canon intros this new system and the place lights up and gets all excited. How could this serve users' needs when one system gets the cold shoulder while the other gets a top of the page accolade?...

Simple. Kevin was invited to the Canon launch, but Nikon didn't bother to invite him. Could it be simpler than that?
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: E.J. Peiker on September 05, 2018, 01:06:38 pm
I'm curious why there would be zero coverage of the Nikon Z series, and then wham! Canon intros this new system and the place lights up and gets all excited. How could this serve users' needs when one system gets the cold shoulder while the other gets a top of the page accolade?

I say that as a user of Canon pro gear for the past 18 years. (21 years before that was Leica.) I don't like this kind of lack of balance. Not sure I can continue to support this site any more.

You probably missed this:
https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/my-thoughts-on-the-new-nikon-z6-and-z7-cameras/
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: kers on September 05, 2018, 01:35:01 pm
You are mistaken. Check this out. (https://luminous-landscape.com/rantatorial/my-thoughts-on-the-new-nikon-z6-and-z7-cameras/) The reasons for the apparent lack of coverage are quite simple.
i read:
Quote
"It seems that a long time ago, Nikon fell out of grace with Luminous-Landscape — or should I say, Luminous-Landscape fell out of the graces of Nikon. From what I heard, it was due to something Michael had said. Those of you who knew Michael know that he called it as he saw it, and I suppose he said something that Nikon didn’t like. I also wrote a story about Saying Goodbye to My Nikon when I made the switch to mirrorless years ago. Since then, we never hear from Nikon."

but now Canon invites you to a nice hotel in Hawaii for a few days and you don't like the camera for good reasons.
If you write about that in all honesty you know it will be your last Canon sponsored trip to Hawaii...
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: wmdyer1 on September 05, 2018, 02:05:58 pm
From the specs and reviews I've read, the Canon R mirrorless appears to be midway between the specs of the Nikon Z6 and Z7, other than the number of focus points. I'll wait a while to see long term reviews on both the Canon and Nikons. Right now I'm very happy with my D850 and D500 and have no desire to switch to a mirrorless system. I realize both Nikon and Canon needed to bring out mirrorless to compete with Sony, and that the future looks to be mirrorless. Change is inevitable. Let's hope it's a change for the better and not merely for the sake of change.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 05, 2018, 02:06:11 pm
but now Canon invites you to a nice hotel in Hawaii for a few days and you don't like the camera for good reasons.
If you write about that in all honesty you know it will be your last Canon sponsored trip to Hawaii...
Ideally all reviews should be done with purchased cameras/lenses/etc so that there is no apparent bias from factory provided equipment.  If otherwise there should be complete disclosure so that the reader has the opportunity to judge whether bias might be introduced.  The fact that LuLa was or was not invited to any sponsored event should be irrelevant.  We as contributors to LuLa (albeit a modest yearly fee) are owed this.  Whatever issues LuLa has had with Nikon (or any other manufacturer) over the years really should be irrelevant.  One only need look at the Nikon Mirrorless launch thread which is 45 pages or so to see what the interest.  Maybe the Canon thread approaches that we will need to wait and see.  There are some outstanding photographers who have been contributing to the Nikon forum that will be buying one of the Z cameras and I hope they publish thoughts and images so that field use can be judged.

Kevin has the right to interview whomever he wishes and that's fine with me.  I don't spend any time reading interviews with factory reps or watching videos about equipment that I will never purchase (either because of cost or lack of interest) and that's my choice and fine with me.  When LuLa ceases to be a resource people will leave, simple as that (though I would hope we won't see public announcements).
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 05, 2018, 02:10:22 pm
Oh well.  We mentioned there are hits and misses.  Many misses for sure.  Like a 1.7 crop factor on 4K video.  We are now trying to figure how we will use that today to do our videos.  More to come.

I did mention we bought the Nikon so we can review them.  And, most likely will have to do so with the Canon if we elect to pursue it further.  My day is gettings abetted here and I'll add more as I learn more.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rado on September 05, 2018, 05:39:44 pm
Kevin are the RF lenses focus by wire?
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Frodo on September 05, 2018, 06:54:43 pm
My sense is that they are focus by wire.  There is no distance scale on the lenses (which for me is a problem - I often focus manually and set the distance).  And I saw a menu option where focusing ring sensitivity was adjustable.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: ski542002 on September 05, 2018, 07:03:22 pm
Have shot Canon since 1971 (showing my age!).  FD, then EOS film, then digital.  Got into mirrorless and I love many of the features of that design (weight is of no concern to me).  I waited until Sony released bodies with TWO card slots, and now I have the A7RIII & A7III.  Sold my Canon bodies, kept the lenses but I don't use on the Sony.  Had hoped to some day get back into Canon and this mirrorless body seems killer.  Then I find out it only has one card slot.  Any pro that shoots an assignment with that shortcoming is playing Russian roulette.  IF/when they have a card take a dump, they'll find the funds to buy into a system with built in redundancy.  I just can't understand the mindset of a "pro-centric" manufacturer (incl. Nikon), that would omit this necessary feature on any new camera release, especially geared towards a pro. 
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 05, 2018, 08:08:31 pm
Even if it is not a substitute for dual card, use uncompressed raw + jpeg as you will have more changes to recover your images if the card has issues.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: DP on September 05, 2018, 08:47:05 pm
Sold my Canon bodies, kept the lenses but I don't use on the Sony
An why not ?
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: ski542002 on September 05, 2018, 11:15:50 pm
I found the AF response using adapted lenses to not be anywhere near as responsive as native.  Using my 70-200F4L lens on the Sony, I must use single shot af & advance.  I found it virtually impossible to track moving subjects without massive focus hunting.  For certain applications, it's great, but I need to be shooting with it under the proper circumstances. I don't shoot sports, so it's not the worse case scenario. Will say, it's plenty sharp and the IS stability is fantastic. Still keeping the Canon lenses.  I'm thinking the next "pro" iteration of the Canon R will have dual card slots.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: E.J. Peiker on September 05, 2018, 11:38:52 pm
Kevin are the RF lenses focus by wire?
They have to be since you can reverse the focus ring direction via custom settings.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rob C on September 06, 2018, 04:38:27 am

Kevin has the right to interview whomever he wishes and that's fine with me.  1. I don't spend any time reading interviews with factory reps or watching videos about equipment that I will never purchase (either because of cost or lack of interest) and that's my choice and fine with me.  2. When LuLa ceases to be a resource people will leave, simple as that (though I would hope we won't see public announcements).

Hi Alan,

1. I skim through, only out of interest in keeping some idea of what's happening.

2. LuLa's value as resource lies, for me, in its readership: I have had a lot of help with things to do with digital image processing, as I have had on the moral level at some critical moments in my life when I have felt photographically very flat and down.

That makes the readership input very valuable.

If I have a complaint, it's that so few readers seem willing to engage in the non-tech aspects of photography and why it matters to them; I have always found the people in photography at least as interesting as their work. I can't name a single photographer, male or female, whose work I admire, who has not also piqued my interest in their personality. After all, that's what makes them the photographers they are/were.

Hardware is just, well, hardware. Thousands own the same stuff but get totally different levels of success or failure with it.

So yeah, it's the people not the materials that are the juice. For me.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: bjanes on September 06, 2018, 06:34:40 am
i read:
but now Canon invites you to a nice hotel in Hawaii for a few days and you don't like the camera for good reasons.
If you write about that in all honesty you know it will be your last Canon sponsored trip to Hawaii...

Ideally all reviews should be done with purchased cameras/lenses/etc so that there is no apparent bias from factory provided equipment.  If otherwise there should be complete disclosure so that the reader has the opportunity to judge whether bias might be introduced.  The fact that LuLa was or was not invited to any sponsored event should be irrelevant. 

In the interest of full disclosure and transparency, it would be of interest to know who footed the bill for this excursion to Hawaii--travel expense, hotel room, dinners and refreshments. These factors could bias the reporting.

Bill
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Jeff on September 06, 2018, 06:42:20 am
In the interest of full disclosure and transparency, it would be of interest to know who footed the bill for this excursion to Hawaii--travel expense, hotel room, dinners and refreshments. These factors could bias the reporting.

Bill

Kevin did give a disclosure  statement at the end of the article,  which included:

"Canon has covered our expenses for this trip "
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: ski542002 on September 06, 2018, 06:57:15 am
Even if it is not a substitute for dual card, use uncompressed raw + jpeg as you will have more changes to recover your images if the card has issues.

If you have the time to elaborate, why would adding another file format to the mix be of benefit when trying to recover images? Usually I use "compressed raw" for my PR-centric captures.  Would compressed raw complicate recovery efforts? Don't need a deep explanation, but I've always purposely avoided this feature, thinking it would slow down the process of files' transfer and muddy up my image editing in C1.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: mbaginy on September 06, 2018, 09:19:32 am
...Hardware is just, well, hardware. Thousands own the same stuff but get totally different levels of success or failure with it.
So yeah, it's the people not the materials that are the juice. For me.
+1
Well stated!!
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 06, 2018, 09:48:05 am
In the interest of full disclosure and transparency, it would be of interest to know who footed the bill for this excursion to Hawaii--travel expense, hotel room, dinners and refreshments. These factors could bias the reporting.

Bill

Oh, stop it please!

We are not talking about a young wannabe blogger who indeed might be motivated to do that (blogging) just for the sake of traveling at someone else’s expense. We are talking about a seasoned professional, with a reputation to protect and much to lose if a few meals and drinks would “bias his reporting.”
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 06, 2018, 12:24:41 pm
Just an update on the Canon cameras announcement.  Michael and I are still in Hawaii.  We spent a lot of time shooting with the camera yesterday.  We also sat down for a few hours with a brilliant Canon rep and talked at length about the camera.  We covered everything that is a concern.  You'll see a complete tour of all the new features and hear about why certain decisions have been made.  We'll go over the menus and deep dive into some of the new features.  It's a very comprehensive talk where we addressed just about all the things that people are being critical of.  In a sperate video, I'll share my thoughts on the hits and misses and what it means for this camera.

This in-depth look at the R camera and my final thoughts may have to wait until I get home.  We have a packed schedule and flights home tomorrow.  So look for all of this next week. Thanks and keep your eyes out for this then.  It will be worth the wait.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: DougDolde on September 06, 2018, 12:53:02 pm
I have not seen a roadmap for future lenses.  Seems odd since Nikon provided one for the Z lenses
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 06, 2018, 01:35:24 pm
Oh, stop it please!

We are not talking about a young wannabe blogger who indeed might be motivated to do that (blogging) just for the sake of traveling at someone else’s expense. We are talking about a seasoned professional, with a reputation to protect and much to lose if a few meals and drinks would “bias his reporting.”
You are the one who should not react in this way.  Disclosure is always the policy that should be followed, and Kevin did just that.  Whether there is any bias or not will be left to the reader/viewer of the posted materials.  You can't possibly know a priori whether there is any bias in what Kevin will be reporting.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 06, 2018, 02:17:43 pm
... You can't possibly know a priori whether there is any bias in what Kevin will be reporting.

Well, I can. I know him. And anyone who has been frequented this site and still has two grains of salt left in his brain, even if not personally knowing him, would have come to the same conclusion. I can understand if a newbie, someone who's never visited the site before, would ask the question, but old members...?


Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: amolitor on September 06, 2018, 02:22:04 pm
I know Kevin slightly, and I believe him to be an honest man, a straight player.

That said,  Canon is not flying people to Hawaii because they are philanthropists. They expect coverage, and they expect to move the needle, overall, in the positive direction. Controlling the environment in which you first touch the camera, making it a pleasant experience, will inevitably color the results of the reviews. That is literally the point of these junkets. If something seems a misfeature, perhaps a pleasant chat over drinks with an expert from the company will change your opinion a little. Is it dishonest to allow yourself to be persuaded?

Kevin knows perfectly well that his job here is to walk a fine line. He must retain credibility with his audience, and therefore must be basically honest in his reviews. On the other hand, if he does not deliver results to Canon, he will lose access, just as Michael did with Nikon. Then there is no more Breaking Canon News on the front page, which circles around to losing audience, and then revenue.

Canon knows this too, of course, and will not expect Kevin to outright sell out on their behalf. They will expect that, overall, those first impressions reviews from everyone who went to Hawaii, will tend to be more positive than they would have been.

Notice, for instance, that the Canon R reviews trend a little more positive, while the Nikon Z reviews across the internet are uniformly negative. And yet, both cameras are basically similar assemblings of features off the standard chinese menu of camera features that everyone's working with.  To pretend that the cameras are substantively different is absurd, and yet the reactions to them are quite different. Canon flew a stack of people to Hawaii and plied them with food and drink for several days, whereas Nikon invited people to some warehouse in NYC for a few hours.

If you think those two things are unrelated, I have a bridge to sell you.

Again, Kevin is an honest guy. But he is a player in a well understood game, and he is not a superhuman who is immune to the sirens. His job is a rather delicate one. Our job, if we care about Canon gear, is to work out about how much rosy glow we ought to subtract from the review.

Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rob C on September 06, 2018, 03:02:03 pm
If you think camera reviews can be worrisome, think about the car releases, the magazines that get to hang on to some fancy ride for however long etc. etc.!

The only way to some objective truth in a world that tries its best to disallow that, is to refuse freebies and just carry on buying or renting what you want to review. Quite why anyone wants to review cameras is another, unfathomable question entirely. Perhaps it's related to the ambiguity in street?

Rob
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: 32BT on September 06, 2018, 03:39:43 pm
Well, it's very simple: i didn't get invited to any of the events and haven't touched any of the cams yet, so you'd be more interested in my not so humble but otherwise totally unbiased opinion than you would be in anyone's opinion that actually handled the goodies?

Be careful now or we let Shadowblade write an opinion piece on the frontpage...!  ;-)

Where LuLa is concerned i frankly don't care about the feasts for reviewers, because i don't want to read about head-to-head judgements between manufacturers. LuLa has always been about the handling characteristics and industry impact, not about A is better than B is better than C. In the latter case, bias might be a problem.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 06, 2018, 03:44:27 pm
If you have the time to elaborate, why would adding another file format to the mix be of benefit when trying to recover images? Usually I use "compressed raw" for my PR-centric captures.  Would compressed raw complicate recovery efforts? Don't need a deep explanation, but I've always purposely avoided this feature, thinking it would slow down the process of files' transfer and muddy up my image editing in C1.

The previous suggestions improve the odds of recovering an image (at least partially) in case you experience an issue such a bad sectors in the memory card. It does nothing if you have a total card failure. Raw + JPEG means you will have a backup of the image if one of them happen to be in a faulty sector. If the raw is fine, you can just delete the jpeg, otherwise the jpeg is better than nothing.

In regards to compression, if you have an uncompressed raw and part of the image data lies on a bad sector, you should still be able to recover the remaining of the image as the information does not require decoding. When you compress, losing part of the data could result in not being able to decode it.

I understand that it may impact in the file transfer process, but it should not affect your image editing. In C1 you can have a filter in the import dialogue to exclude the JPEGs
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 06, 2018, 04:00:27 pm
...so you'd be more interested in my not so humble but otherwise totally unbiased opinion than you would be in anyone's opinion that actually handled the goodies?...

Exactly!

Who cares if Kevin is, hypothetically speaking, biased? If he says the lack of IBIS is the best thing since the slice bread because Canon bought him a drink, would you believe it, or would you decide for yourself whether you need it or if it is a dealbreaker? As long as Kevin mentions the lack of IBIS. If he says he loves to carry bricks fast lenses around all day, just because Canon put pineapple on his pizza, would you buy one (lens, not pizza) or would you determine for yourself if you need one?
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: 32BT on September 06, 2018, 04:14:12 pm
I know i'm a lot better at determining if i need a pizza than determining if i need a lens, to be honest... =:-/
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: jeremyrh on September 06, 2018, 04:15:03 pm
Exactly!

Who cares if Kevin is, hypothetically speaking, biased? If he says the lack of IBIS is the best thing since the slice bread because Canon bought him a drink, would you believe it, or would you decide for yourself whether you need it or if it is a dealbreaker? As long as Kevin mentions the lack of IBIS. If he says he loves to carry bricks fast lenses around all day, just because Canon put pineapple on his pizza, would you buy one (lens, not pizza) or would you determine for yourself if you need one?

Do you think people make decisions on purely objective criteria? For sure they don't. And it may well be that someone chooses a camera at least in part because they read a puff piece from someone popular.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 06, 2018, 04:29:00 pm
Do you think people make decisions on purely objective criteria? For sure they don't. And it may well be that someone chooses a camera at least in part because they read a puff piece from someone popular.

So? Remember, they would be basing their decision on someone else's opinion. If Kevin would deliberately misstate facts, that is a different matter. The latter would be a fraud. The former is just Darwin in action. And really, what is the worst that could happen? They would end up with a camera that is 10x better anyway than they are photographers. Oh, the horror! If someone chose Canon R vs. Nikon Z just because Canon put pineapple on Kevin's pizza, the universe would implode for sure.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 06, 2018, 05:27:36 pm
I'm sure the reviews will be honest as they have been in Lula and Kevin will not misstate facts. Nevertheless there is a difference in the tone of the review of the Nikon Z vs. the Canon R (a camera filled with innovations that haven’t been present on other cameras before). In addition, the Nikon Z was mentioned in a Rantatorial while the Canon R was on the front page.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Les Sparks on September 06, 2018, 11:17:04 pm
I think Kevin has  been pretty clear about the Canon Nikon thing. Nikon got a tutorial because there was not much to say except nikon has new cameras Kevin got to play with it for too short a time to reach any conclusions so didn't draw any. He reported on some concerns others have expressed and ended by saying he ordered Nikons for review.
Canon got more  coverage because they made camera and people available for extend time. So Kevin has something to say based on his experience. He noted that he would probably purchase the Canon for review if it were interesting.
Seems to me that the Nikon and Canon were treated fairly.
Les Sparks
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 06, 2018, 11:33:41 pm
Now it is my turn.  For the last few days, we have been going 15 hours a day with this camera.  We have done an extensive hands-on interview going over this camera with one of Canon's top tech guys.  If you want to know this camera, menus, and answers to the design questions then this video will reveal it.

I also just finished (Thursday evening Hawaii time) the Hits and Misses video.  I think I'll let you be the judge about how I feel about this camera.  We fly home tomorrow and then Michael who is along with me on this trip has a couple of massive video edits to do.  When these are ready we will share them with you right away.  I am not going to give away my findings and feelings.  Wait a few more days for that. 

I will also say that I am excited (really excited) about the Fuji XT-3 release.  Too bad they were doing it at the same time as Canon.  I am a big Fuji user and it looks like they did a really good job with this release.  Since I already own all the Fuji camera from XT-1 and the Pro cameras I have put an order in for the XT-3 and we will cover that too.

So, let us get home and finalize the videos and accompanying articles for the Canon R camera.  Then we will get on to the XT3 and the Z6 and Z7 cameras when tey ship.

Canon is allowing us to take these cameras home and use further for several weeks.  So, we may have even more to say about that soon.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 06, 2018, 11:35:26 pm
Seems to me that the Nikon and Canon were treated fairly.
Les Sparks

One as a front page and the other in a rantatorial, yeah, definitely fair
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 01:36:29 am
So? Remember, they would be basing their decision on someone else's opinion. If Kevin would deliberately misstate facts, that is a different matter. The latter would be a fraud. The former is just Darwin in action. And really, what is the worst that could happen? They would end up with a camera that is 10x better anyway than they are photographers. Oh, the horror! If someone chose Canon R vs. Nikon Z just because Canon put pineapple on Kevin's pizza, the universe would implode for sure.

Well, to an extent I agree with you - someone would be a bit daft to make a major purchase based on Kevin’s opinion, but clearly Canon think that they will, at least in part. Whether those purchasers are good photographers neither you nor I can say, and maybe they are dentists so losing a few grand when their camera gets wet is not a big deal. :-)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Jeff on September 07, 2018, 02:47:35 am
A thought.

Are all these recent announcements so timed to ensure people actually visit their stands at the upcoming Photokina  ?

Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: davidgp on September 07, 2018, 02:54:17 am
One as a front page and the other in a rantatorial, yeah, definitely fair

Yes, fair... if you have been visiting LuLa for many years, even before Kevin was part of it, you will know they don’t do product announcements without touching the product.

Kevin already commented that he was interested in testing the Z cameras plus lenses and that he was willing to buy them... he got a sneak peak going to a local dealer to see the camera for a few minutes, not enough time to real get an impression... now, the rant was not about the camera, was about Nikon inviting all the press around the world and not LuLa... a fair complaint.

Now, Canon invited LuLa to the press event, they are allowing him to keep the camera, so yes... he has access to the camera for a long period, he can speak about it.

Man... I don’t see Phase ONE complaining that LuLa has no article about their new backs... even if Kevin worked there... I don’t see Fuji fans complaining they X-T3 has not article... Kevin already said that he ordered one... and he will speak about it when it is around.

So yes... a fair treatment



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 03:16:34 am
Yes, fair... if you have been visiting LuLa for many years, even before Kevin was part of it, you will know they don’t do product announcements without touching the product.

But apparently they do feel able to list the negative aspects culled from various YouTubers without handling the product.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on September 07, 2018, 03:25:58 am
you will know they don’t do product announcements without touching the product.

http://dgpfotografia.com

Well, at least the product was touched  :)

"After looking at and holding the Z6 and Z7 cameras, as well as doing some test shots in a very limited environment, I will hold my judgment."

No basta con ser la mujer del César, hay que parecerlo
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rob C on September 07, 2018, 04:16:32 am
Well, at least the product was touched  :)

"After looking at and holding the Z6 and Z7 cameras, as well as doing some test shots in a very limited environment, I will hold my judgment."

No basta con ser la mujer del César, hay que parecerlo


I don't give a fig about the wife of César, but I sure miss mine! And she always did look and behave as my wife, too! But then, she was no photographic toy.

I have often wondered about those people who get their jollies from reading and writing about cameras, rather than from using them to some greater purpose than to illustrate their "Tests".

Holy crap, almost any camera today can be used as instrumental in the making of a great photograph: it is always the user who is in control (or otherwise) of the final outcome. I started with a Vito B, a basic, fixed-lens little Voigtlander that weighed a ton, moved on to an Exakta Varex or two, and then to Nikon F. Those Exaktas were, by today's conceptions, out of the pre-steam-age. But you know what? Once I figured how they worked, it didn't cross my mind that they were clunky: I just used 'em. I moved to Nikon because my last employer used one as well as an M3 - for different gigs - and the lenses available for the Nikon were far better than those I'd bought for my Exaktas. I'm sure that the Pentax range would have been just as good as the Nikon.

It's my opinion that those people who constantly upgrade and switch and chop and change have a real problem: they believe that camera X is going to impart unto them some magical quality so far missing in their visual makeup. Not gonna happen; save your pennies for something more realistic, not frustrating, and that probably makes you fat.

Rob
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 06:42:50 am

It's my opinion that those people who constantly upgrade and switch and chop and change have a real problem: they believe that camera X is going to impart unto them some magical quality so far missing in their visual makeup. Not gonna happen; save your pennies for something more realistic, not frustrating, and that probably makes you fat.

Rob

Shame on the people spending their money in non-approved fashion !!
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rob C on September 07, 2018, 08:36:18 am
Shame on the people spending their money in non-approved fashion !!


Yeah, it's a cardinal sin.

:-)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: amolitor on September 07, 2018, 09:07:15 am
It's a great deal more subtle than "Maybe some schmoes will buy it if Kevin says nice things about it"

Canon has successfully created an entire atmosphere of positivity around a camera that is essentially the same as Nikon's widely panned offerings. Wiser heads than mine predicted that Canon would dominate this contest, and do so through marketing, rather than by building products that are in any fundamental way "better" or "different", and I think we're seeing those wiser heads proven right.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rob C on September 07, 2018, 09:12:46 am
It's a great deal more subtle than "Maybe some schmoes will buy it if Kevin says nice things about it"

Canon has successfully created an entire atmosphere of positivity around a camera that is essentially the same as Nikon's widely panned offerings. Wiser heads than mine predicted that Canon would dominate this contest, and do so through marketing, rather than by building products that are in any fundamental way "better" or "different", and I think we're seeing those wiser heads proven right.


Gimme a break! The things were only announced a few days ago! What do you base your projection upon? Reading the bullshit from Internet gurus and fellow-travellers?

Let a year roll past, and then come to a learned conclusion.

Rob
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: amolitor on September 07, 2018, 09:15:42 am
I'm talking specifically about what flavor the Internet bullshit is, Rob.

Canon and Nikon both wanted positive flavored Internet bullshit, but Canon outbid.

Sure, in a year everything will look different, and indeed even now we're reminded that the flavor of the internet bullshit it not an accurate reflection of the market, although it has an effect.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 07, 2018, 09:19:17 am
...Let a year roll past, and then come to a learned conclusion.

“Too early to tell.”

         - Chinese President, when asked about the impact of the 1789 French Revolution
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 07, 2018, 09:29:49 am
... Canon has successfully created an entire atmosphere of positivity around a camera that is essentially the same as Nikon's widely panned offerings...

Widely panned!? Bernard is already spending several nights in a tent in front of a Nikon store, lining up for a preorder.

I, on the other hand, have no intention to replace, or even supplement, my Canon 5Ds.

So, whose marketing is more successful?
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: 32BT on September 07, 2018, 09:35:48 am
Widely panned!? Bernard is already spending several nights in a tent in front of a Nikon store, lining up for a preorder.

I, on the other hand, have no intention to replace, or even supplement, my Canon 5Ds.

So, whose marketing is more successful?

The question though is what you had done if the inside of your wallet looked the same as Bernard's... ;-)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 07, 2018, 09:38:25 am
The question though is what you had done if the inside of your wallet looked the same as Bernard's... ;-)

Touché! 😊
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: davidgp on September 07, 2018, 09:55:58 am
Widely panned!? Bernard is already spending several nights in a tent in front of a Nikon store, lining up for a preorder.

I, on the other hand, have no intention to replace, or even supplement, my Canon 5Ds.

So, whose marketing is more successful?

As Rob said... probably we will see in the following months... year... what marketing strategy was more successful...

I think the idea of Canon to allow reviewers like Kevin to have te camera for some weeks at home will give them more article opportunities... would that work at the end? No idea...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 11:08:01 am
The question though is what you had done if the inside of your wallet looked the same as Bernard's... ;-)

I can only dream!!
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 11:11:23 am
Widely panned!? Bernard is already spending several nights in a tent in front of a Nikon store, lining up for a preorder.

I, on the other hand, have no intention to replace, or even supplement, my Canon 5Ds.

So, whose marketing is more successful?

Bernard also expressed an interest in buying a Canon in addition to the Nikon we all knew he'd buy, so the Hawaiian KoolAid is powerful stuff!!
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rob C on September 07, 2018, 11:38:22 am
Bernard also expressed an interest in buying a Canon in addition to the Nikon we all knew he'd buy, so the Hawaiian KoolAid is powerful stuff!!

Who could reasonably argue? It blows the top off the mountains even after making them in the first place.

Rob
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 07, 2018, 01:13:35 pm
Well, I can. I know him. And anyone who has been frequented this site and still has two grains of salt left in his brain, even if not personally knowing him, would have come to the same conclusion. I can understand if a newbie, someone who's never visited the site before, would ask the question, but old members...?
So we should not expect any disclosure if a trip is paid for by a camera company?  I've been on the battle lines on this issue regarding journal articles from clinical trials sponsored by pharmaceutical companies and to not expect disclosure just won't fly these days.  Why should transparency be any different here?  I certainly would expect a review or discussion to cover the important issue of who paid for the trip (done in this case) and how the equipment was obtained (whether it was purchased or supplied by the manufacturer).  I want to know this so that I can judge whether 'I' perceive any bias in the review/discussion.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 07, 2018, 01:27:05 pm

It's my opinion that those people who constantly upgrade and switch and chop and change have a real problem: they believe that camera X is going to impart unto them some magical quality so far missing in their visual makeup. Not gonna happen; save your pennies for something more realistic, not frustrating, and that probably makes you fat.

Rob
I was given an old Ricoh rangefinder by my father lots of years ago which was my starter camera.  First SLR was a Nikormat FTN which was perfectly fine for my purposes.  I waited on digital and then bought an early Nikon DSLR and had my old lenses adapted so they could be used with manual focus (I forget the model but I think it was a 6 megapixel model).  I then bought a D300 for it's better performance and finally a D810 when B&H was having a sale several years ago.  The only reason for me to be interested in mirrorless is the size/weight factor.  As we are traveling more in retirement, I'm more interested in a lighter weight camera/lens solution.  I hope I am smart enough to not accept a 'magical quality solution.'  My back however would be happy with a lighter camera load.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: KLaban on September 07, 2018, 01:47:11 pm
The question though is what you had done if the inside of your wallet looked the same as Bernard's... ;-)

If the inside of my wallet looked the same as Bernard's I wouldn't be wasting my time here!
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 07, 2018, 02:36:22 pm
So we should not expect any disclosure if a trip is paid for by a camera company?...

Why are even having this discussion? The disclosure WAS made, plus it is a legal requirement.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 02:41:31 pm
So we should not expect any disclosure if a trip is paid for by a camera company?  I've been on the battle lines on this issue regarding journal articles from clinical trials sponsored by pharmaceutical companies and to not expect disclosure just won't fly these days.  W

It's ok, Alan - I'm sure all those drugs are kind of the same.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 07, 2018, 03:28:50 pm
It's ok, Alan - I'm sure all those drugs are kind of the same.

If Kevin would be in the position to prescribe those cameras and lenses the way docs do (i.e., at mostly third-party expense), and the consequences could be life threatening, I would also be clamoring for full disclosure ;)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Rob C on September 07, 2018, 03:33:01 pm
If the inside of my wallet looked the same as Bernard's I wouldn't be wasting my time here!


Huh, that's nothing: open mine and moths fly out! When the first bat does that too, I'll buy a new wallet.

;-)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: barnuvious veranda on September 07, 2018, 04:54:08 pm
Tired of Canon's "just enough" updates after 14 digital years and still owning my great Nikon glass from my first 25 years of shooting film, I've been waiting with great interest for both of their highly-announced 'mirrorless' offerings. And now that they're unveiled, we have yet another one of Canon corporate-think's "just enough" (they think) offerings, and a new Nikon that I was REALLY hoping to be the smaller version of their D850, but has fallen short by one card slot and unremarkable eye/face AF. So I'll tread water with these beautiful Fuji APS-C jewels, hoping that Nikon actually releases a 'PRO' version very soon.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 07, 2018, 05:31:06 pm
It's ok, Alan - I'm sure all those drugs are kind of the same.
Two things I go by, avoid hospitals and take as few Rx drugs as possible!! :)
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: DaveCurtis on September 07, 2018, 07:40:56 pm
The new 50mm f1.2 looks impressive as well as large. Over at dreview they have some f.1.2 samples. Very sharp.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: Zathras on April 24, 2019, 10:18:29 pm
Simple. Kevin was invited to the Canon launch, but Nikon didn't bother to invite him. Could it be simpler than that?

My apologies (also for being so late replying). You are right. I just didn't search the site thoroughly enough? I am sorry for being kind of whiny there. I'll try to do better.
Title: Re: Just Published - Canon Launches the EOS R Camera
Post by: MMitchell on May 08, 2019, 06:42:09 pm
Simple. Kevin was invited to the Canon launch, but Nikon didn't bother to invite him. Could it be simpler than that?

Just speculating, that when M.R. introduced the "Hitler rants about the D3X" video from youtube in one of his video talks, maybe Nikon was offended?  The $8000 body-only introductory price was shocking to many people, and the fake Hitler rant might have upset Nikon not because of the dark humor, but because it raised a lot of eyebrows about that price.