Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: francescogola on August 19, 2018, 05:49:59 am
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Hello friends,
I'd love to hear your experience on the calibration of a NEC PA272W monitor.
I made some researches on this forum, but I found very conflicting opinions.
I own an X-Rite i1Display that works pretty well with the MacBook Pro display.
For the NEC monitor, if I'm not wrong, I have 3 options:
- Spectraview II
- X-Rite i1Profiler
- DisplayCAL
I tried to play with DisplayCAL with the MacBook Pro display, but results were pretty bad, probably due to my lack of skills on fine-tuning the app.
As I calibrated the MacBook Pro display with i1Profiler, do you believe that using it for NEC monitor too will help on having a better results (aka better color match between the two screens)?
Any advice is more than welcome!
Thanks,
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Your list doesn't include basICColor Display 5, which I have been using for years and I think is an excellent profiler for these monitors.
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Your list doesn't include basICColor Display 5, which I have been using for years and I think is an excellent profiler for these monitors.
Interesting, thanks!
Do you have a positive experience both on NECs and MacBooks?
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I don't profile my laptop because any change of the angle between your eyes and the screen, say due to changing tilt of the cover, the image appearance changes. I have a MacBook Pro and don't consider it an option for serious editing.
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For a SpectraView, I can't fathom why anyone would use anything but SpectraView.
For a Macbook Pro, like Mark, I don't profile it (expect for testing). I don't really see the point as I don't trust or use it for image editing.
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For a SpectraView, I can't fathom why anyone would use anything but SpectraView.
Because my testing indicated that I was getting slightly better monitor to print matching from basICColor - not to say Spectraview was bad - it's not, in fact it's pretty good; it's just that I found basICColor a bit better. That was probably seven years ago. Maybe both have changed since then, so this is a carry-over finding that I haven't updated with new comparisons. For someone looking at options, no harm trying as many as available for free demo.
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Because my testing indicated that I was getting slightly better monitor to print matching from basICColor - not to say Spectraview was bad - it's not, in fact it's pretty good; it's just that I found basICColor a bit better.
Sorry, I'm not going to buy that per se. Better match indicates better settings for the match. Now are you saying that no matter the settings in SpectraView, you couldn't produce a match/as good a match? The two products will very, very unlikely produce the same rendering with the same settings. If that's what you tried.
Can basICColor produce multiple calibrations and profiles, allow you to switch on the fly and load that into the panel? If not, there's little question using it versus SpectraView will cripple the functionality of the SpectraView hardware. Does it use all the SpectraView engine? If not, it versus SpectraView will cripple the functionality of the SpectraView hardware.
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No, I tried various settings in each.
There is a lot of information about what basICColor does on their website and in their (downloadable) manual, so you can check the details yourself; but yes, it can make bespoke profiles for different displays hooked to the same graphics card.
I'm not the least bit concerned about Spectraview hardware. basICColor communicates with the display hardware and it produces fine profiles; what it's doing under the hood is for them and them, I'm just a user with eyes. I didn't say there's anything wrong with Spectraview, I just suggested basICColor as another one to add to the O/P's list, worth a look. This is the application that NEC supplies to European customers for the high-end NEC monitors.
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No, I tried various settings in each.
There is a lot of information about what basICColor does on their website and in their (downloadable) manual, so you can check the details yourself; but yes, it can make bespoke profiles for different displays hooked to the same graphics card.
But SpectraView does this IN the panel hardware! And swaps the profiles. This is absolutely not happening in the graphic card. You're not using the full hardware capabilities by not using the host software to drive the panel.
I'm not the least bit concerned about Spectraview hardware
Many who did buy them for their functionality should and do. ;)
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I said communicates with the display hardware and you say panel hardware. We're saying the same thing - i.e display=panel=device - not the graphics card. The software I'm using to drive the panel does what it needs to do: it makes very fine profiles and allows me to get very good screen to print matching. That's all I need from it. I only mentioned it as an option for the O/P - I never suggested not to use anything else on his list. He should try all of it if he has the time and patience. He won't go wrong with either Spectraview or basICColor - the others I haven't used so wouldn't speculate.
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I said communicates with the display hardware and you say panel hardware. We're saying the same thing - i.e display=panel=device - not the graphics card.
OK, if you say so. You're certain that all the panel hardware is supported by the two equally?
There IS a basICColor version that should, based on a European bundle WITH SpectraView display. But I don't know that's every version one can possibility buy/use.
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I have no idea whether ALL the hardware is supported equally in both, nor do I care. I'm only interested in outcomes.
I have been told in the past that the version of basICColor Display bundled with the European "Reference Series" panelss is exactly the same as the software sold to everyone anywhere. As you may recall, (just an aside here), after bales of confusion broke out, we in North America were told there is no functional or quality difference between a "Reference Series" panel sold in Germany and the ones bearing the same model series sold in North America. The former is accompanied by a certificate of calibration and comes with basICColor, whereas over here we don't get certificates and we get Spectraview.
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I have a PA242W with Spectraview II software. It calibrates simply without much input from me. The software is mated to the display by the manufacturer of the display. Since I I'm not technical like Mark or Andrew, I appreciate that my setup works simply and in the background. Life is complicated enough.
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My PA came with a certificate. Not that it means a lot.
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My PA came with a certificate. Not that it means a lot.
Mine didn't, but that's probably because you are Andrew Rodney and I'm not, or they think Canadians don't deserve certificates. I think I should sue them for "certificated discrimination" or is it "certified discrimination" or "just plain nutty marketing". :-) :-)
(Back to serious: they did tell me back then that the certificate has no bearing on the basic quality of the panel).
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Mine didn't, but that's probably because you are Andrew Rodney and I'm not, or they think Canadians don't deserve certificates.
That has to be it Mark. Like the leader of the "free world", you should state you'll sue them. ;D
(Back to serious: they did tell me back then that the certificate has no bearing on the basic quality of the panel).
Which is the reason I wrote: Not that it means a lot.
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I have a PA242W with Spectraview II software. It calibrates simply without much input from me. The software is mated to the display by the manufacturer of the display. Since I I'm not technical like Mark or Andrew, I appreciate that my setup works simply and in the background. Life is complicated enough.
Ya, that's fine and make sense, but I assure you, basIIColor Display is as easy to use as it can get - one doesn't need to be "technical".
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That has to be it Mark. Like the leader of the "free world", you should state you'll sue them. ;D .......
And then not do it....... 8)
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Ya, that's fine and make sense, but I assure you, basIIColor Display is as easy to use as it can get - one doesn't need to be "technical".
When I first set it up, I had some questions. The NEC tech was very helpful including helping me to download and setup the latest Spectraview and NEC software. My point being that by buying the hardware and software from NEC, I could get a single source for service and support, something I find very helpful today. How many times with other equipment and APPs have I gotten each side pointing the finger at the other manufacturer as the cause of the problem and who to go to for help. With NEC monitor and NEC software, I make one phone call. That's worth a lot.
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That can have its benefits.
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I'm using BasICColor Display with a NEC PA272W and I'm very happy with it. Not that it means a lot too.
From Spectraview FAQ: https://www.necdisplay.com/support-and-services/spectra-view-II/FAQ
"The SpectraViewII calibration system is developed by NEC and optionally includes an NEC branded X-Rite iOne Display V2 color sensor. SpectraViewII can be used with any supported display model and is sold both as a complete kit bundled with a display, and as an add-on product.
In Europe SpectraView Profiler includes a display monitor with hood, custom calibration software developed by basICColor, and each display is individually certified. It is not possible to purchase and use the SpectraView Profiler software with a non-SpectraView Profiler display."
As BasICColor do the software for the European market it looks like they have full access and knowledge to do the job.
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I have a Spectraview monitor and live in the UK. I use the BasiCColor software for calibration. I can conform the BasiCColor software adjusts the monitor directly just like the Spectraview software does. In the calibration sense they are functionally identical. You pick your target, put the sensor on the screen and hit go. You can see the monitor adjust itself as the calibration process is performed.
It is only in the last few years that you could actually buy the Spectraview software in Europe.
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That's great, thanks!
I think I'll give a try to SpectraView as the BasICColor apparently is not optimized for lates macOS and the last updates is not that recent.
Thank you!
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That's great, thanks!
I think I'll give a try to SpectraView as the BasICColor apparently is not optimized for lates macOS and the last updates is not that recent.
Thank you!
I don't know where you got this rubbish from. Here are the specs for basICColor Display from the basICColor website (https://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-5-en/):
Macintosh:
Mac OS X 10.6 (Intel), Mac OS X 10.7, Mac OS X 10.8, Mac OS X 10.9,
Mac OS X 10.10, Mac OS X 10.11, macOS 10.12, macOS 10.13
Intel® Core-Duo-Processor
1GB RAM, 250MB Available Disk Space, minimum
Graphic Card and Monitor Supporting 1280x1024 Pixel and 24 Bit Color Depth
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Here from Basiccolor :
Hardware Support List basICColor display 5.8.1
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Colorimeter:
- basICColor DISCUS
- basICColor SQUID
- basICColor SQUID 2
- basICColor SQUID 2 WG
- basICColor SQUID 3
- datacolor Spyder 2
- datacolor Spyder 3
- datacolor Spyder 4
- datacolor Spyder 5
- EIZO Swing
- Monaco OPTIX XR - please refer to our FAQ list: http://www.basiccolor.de/faqs-en/
- NEC SpectraSensor Pro
- NEC MDSVSENSOR 2
- X-Rite DTP 94 USB - please refer to our FAQ list: http://www.basiccolor.de/faqs-en/
- X-Rite Eye-One display
- X-Rite Eye-One display 2
- X-Rite Eye-One display 2 WG
- X-Rite Eye-One display LT
- X-Rite i1Display Pro
Spectrophotometer:
- GL optic mini-spectrometer (Windows only)
- Instrument Systems CAS 140CT (Windows only)
- Konica Minolta FD-7
- X-Rite Eye-One Pro
- X-Rite Eye-One Monitor
- X-Rite i1Pro 2
- X-Rite ColorMunki
Display Color Analyzer:
- Konica Minolta Display Color Analyzer CA-210
Displays (hardware calibration):
- Eizo CG 210
- Eizo CE 210W
- Eizo CG 211
- Eizo CG 220
- Eizo CG 221
- Eizo CG 222W
- Eizo CG 223W
- Eizo CG 232W
- Eizo CE 240W
- Eizo CG 241W
- Eizo CG 2420
- Eizo CG 242W
- Eizo CG 243W
- Eizo CG 245W
- Eizo CG 246
- Eizo CG 247
- Eizo CG 248-4K
- EIZO CG 2730
- Eizo CG 275W
- Eizo CG 276
- Eizo CG 277
- Eizo CG 301W
- Eizo CG 303W
- Eizo CG 318-4K
- NEC SpectraView 231
- NEC SpectraView 232
- NEC SpectraView 241
- NEC SpectraView 242
- NEC SpectraView 271
- NEC SpectraView 272
- NEC SpectraView Reference 241
- NEC SpectraView Reference 242
- NEC SpectraView Reference 271
- NEC SpectraView Reference 272
- NEC SpectraView Reference 301
- NEC SpectraView Reference 302
- NEC SpectraView Reference 322UHD
- NEC MultiSync LCD PA231W
- NEC MultiSync LCD P232W
- NEC MultiSync LCD PA241W
- NEC MultiSync LCD PA242W
- NEC MultiSync LCD PA271W
- NEC MultiSync LCD PA272W
- NEC MultiSync LCD PA301W
- NEC MultiSync LCD PA302W
- NEC MultiSync PA322UHD
- NEC MultiSync MD301C4
- NEC MultiSync MD322C8
- NEC MultiSync X841UHD
- NEC MultiSync X651UHD
- NEC MultiSync X981UHD
- NEC MultiSync EA244UHD
- NEC MultiSync EA304WMi
- Quato Intelli Proof 190
- Quato Intelli Proof 201
- Quato Intelli Proof 213
- Quato Intelli Proof 220 LE
- Quato Intelli Proof 220 Excellence
- Quato Intelli Proof 240 Excellence LED
- Quato Intelli Proof 242 LE
- Quato Intelli Proof 242 Excellence
- Quato Intelli Proof 260 / 264 Excellence
- Quato Intelli Proof 262 Excellence
- Quato Intelli Proof 270 Excellence
- Quato Intelli Proof 300 Excellence
- Quato Intelli Proof 420 Excellence
- Quato Proof View 700-42
Displays (combined hard- and software calibration):
- Apple monitors*
Displays (software calibration):
- all other displays, LCD and CRT
Other Devices:
- basICColor diLIGHT
- JUST Color Communicator 2
- manroland Press Console
* only Apple monitors supported with a brightness slider
in the monitor preferences pane.
Spectraview Profiler is the rebadged basiccolor software, sold in Europe.
Spectraview ii is distributed in US, maybe elsewhere too.
They have sdk from Eizo and Nec.
Unofficial : the sdk for hard calibration works for a few other monitors, which not included in the list (tested on other Eizo models).
Basiccolor is one of the best engineering team in color management. They also sell the best colorimeter on the market (basiccolor discuss).
Some functionnalitys can lack if you compare to Eizo colornavigator for exemple, but basiccolor display offers a very high end calibration profiling system.
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Here from Basiccolor :
Spectraview Profiler is the rebadged basiccolor software, sold in Europe.
Spectraview ii is distributed in US, maybe elsewhere too.
They have sdk from Eizo and Nec.
Unofficial : the sdk for hard calibration works for a few other monitors, which not included in the list (tested on other Eizo models).
Basiccolor is one of the best engineering team in color management. They also sell the best colorimeter on the market (basiccolor discuss).
Some functionnalitys can lack if you compare to Eizo colornavigator for exemple, but basiccolor display offers a very high end calibration profiling system.
Will NEC handle warranty and other issues with software other than Spectraview?
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Will NEC handle warranty and other issues with software other than Spectraview?
Alan, if NEC isn't marketing basICColor in our service area (North America) I don't see any reason why they should support basICColor issues, but they would support NEC hardware issues. That said, whether using Spectraview or basICColor, display profiling is pretty straightforward and as long as the instrument is properly matched to the kind of panel - mainly, you want a colorimeter capable of picking up the gamut of the monitor, the results should be good. I wouldn't make much of the support question in the context of the profiling software and the panel coming from different manufacturers. Beyond installation and connectivity of the panel, very little by way of support is usually required unless you have a defective panel, and if I've ever had questions about this or that setting for profiling, the instruction manual, advice on the internet, or a contact with the software vendor has sufficed in dealing with it. This is one of the easier aspects of digital imaging, at least in my experience.
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Alan, if NEC isn't marketing basICColor in our service area (North America) I don't see any reason why they should support basICColor issues, but they would support NEC hardware issues. That said, whether using Spectraview or basICColor, display profiling is pretty straightforward and as long as the instrument is properly matched to the kind of panel - mainly, you want a colorimeter capable of picking up the gamut of the monitor, the results should be good. I wouldn't make much of the support question in the context of the profiling software and the panel coming from different manufacturers. Beyond installation and connectivity of the panel, very little by way of support is usually required unless you have a defective panel, and if I've ever had questions about this or that setting for profiling, the instruction manual, advice on the internet, or a contact with the software vendor has sufficed in dealing with it. This is one of the easier aspects of digital imaging, at least in my experience.
Mark: Why look for trouble with a non-NEC product? Is the price that different? Whenever I tried to match different manufacturers, I always seem to pay a penalty.
Right now I have problems with Microsoft Outlook email on my desktop working with my Samsung cell phone using Verizon Wireless and my email handled by Comcast. Everyone is pointing fingers telling me to go talk to the other party. Trying to get advice from equally dumb people on the internet is extremely burdensome. Maybe because I'm old. But keeping life simple and working with one vendor has it's advantages even if it costs a few extra bucks.
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Mark: Why look for trouble with a non-NEC product? Is the price that different? Whenever I tried to match different manufacturers, I always seem to pay a penalty.
Nothing to do with money Alan, and only to do with outcomes. I don't look for trouble either - I look for performance and ease of use. Nor is it a matter of "matching" manufacturers. The question is compatibility. We are always dealing with compatibility between one thing and another in digital imaging, and it can be very problematic, but in my experience least of all with the profiling of an NEC monitor whether one uses Spectraview or basICColor.
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That said, whether using Spectraview or basICColor, display profiling is pretty straightforward and as long as the instrument is properly matched to the kind of panel - mainly, you want a colorimeter capable of picking up the gamut of the monitor, the results should be good.
Got nothing to do with gamut Mark. It has to do with a colorimeter who's filters and filter matrices 'match' (are compatible) with the backlight. You can have a wide gamut CCFL display with a colorimeter that works just fine, but will not work well with an sRGB gamut display using white LEDs. The newer X-rite devices actually have the ability for downloadable matrices but I'm not aware of if and when it's been necessary. Mostly for future display technologies and future compatibility with the hardware.
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Useful clarification Andrew, but I recall being told when I bought the NEC PA271 that I needed a colorimeter capable of accommodating the wider gamut of the new display. Maybe the person who advised me that way didn't have the reason quite right, but he should have?!?!
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Useful clarification Andrew, but I recall being told when I bought the NEC PA271 that I needed a colorimeter capable of accommodating the wider gamut of the new display. Maybe the person who advised me that way didn't have the reason quite right, but he should have?!?!
Again, not gamut, backlight and filter matrices. It's why in the very old days, we'd use a Spectrophotometer and a Colorimeter on NEC's; two step process. Not necessary today with newer Colorimeters, certainly those NEC bundles with their panels.
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Right now I have problems with Microsoft Outlook email on my desktop working with my Samsung cell phone using Verizon Wireless and my email handled by Comcast. Everyone is pointing fingers telling me to go talk to the other party. Trying to get advice from equally dumb people on the internet is extremely burdensome. Maybe because I'm old. But keeping life simple and working with one vendor has it's advantages even if it costs a few extra bucks.
OT to this discussion but I would note that the only way to have seamless email these days is to use a web-based system and leave MS Outlook. Either gmail or Yahoo are perfectly fine and you can export all your Outlook contacts into either application. You can use an Internet browser on a PC at home and the dedicated phone and or tablet app on the road.
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OT to this discussion but I would note that the only way to have seamless email these days is to use a web-based system and leave MS Outlook. Either gmail or Yahoo are perfectly fine and you can export all your Outlook contacts into either application. You can use an Internet browser on a PC at home and the dedicated phone and or tablet app on the road.
Completely OT, but Yahoo is NOT fine. Regrettably, I use it because of their hook-up with Rogers, my ISP, but they have an extremely invasive privacy policy that so far I have not signed up to. Every day I get reminders to sign up, but I keep deferring it. When they leave me no option I shall leave them. MS Outlook hooked up to your own domain with a server space provider (e.g. GoDaddy or similar) is much less intrusive. Not to speak of Yahoo's multiple technical shortcomings and glitches...as for Google - world headquarters for data mining. I'll leave it at that because this is way OT.
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Again, not gamut, backlight and filter matrices. It's why in the very old days, we'd use a Spectrophotometer and a Colorimeter on NEC's; two step process. Not necessary today with newer Colorimeters, certainly those NEC bundles with their panels.
OK, thanks.
When I bought my PA271 it came bundled with an NEC-branded X-Rite eye-one display 2. It's compatible with the display, Spectraview and basICColor.
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The newer X-rite devices actually have the ability for downloadable matrices but I'm not aware of if and when it's been necessary.
Actually no, they don't have downloadable matrices. What they (and the Spyder 4 & 5) do have, is the spectral sensitivities of the particular instruments filters+detector in their EEPROM. From that and the display spectral characteristic, a custom matrix for that display & instrument can be computed on the fly by the driver code. End result is probably not quite as accurate as a custom measured matrix for that instrument & display, but a whole lot better than generic calibration matrices.
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Actually no, they don't have downloadable matrices. What they (and the Spyder 4 & 5) do have, is the spectral sensitivities of the particular instruments filters+detector in their EEPROM. From that and the display spectral characteristic, a custom matrix for that display & instrument can be computed on the fly by the driver code. End result is probably not quite as accurate as a custom measured matrix for that instrument & display, but a whole lot better than generic calibration matrices.
Thanks. Even better than I incorrectly believed. Clever.
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I apologize for cutting in her not completely on topic. However, this seemed to be perhaps the best place to find an answer to my question(s). My first NEC display was the 2690 (26" Display) and I was very happy with it, but after approximately 5 years of steady use it developed an issue that eventually caused me to buy the PA271. Now after about 6 years of rather steady usage it too is showing an issue which seems to be much like that of the 2690, although not exactly the same. I'm seeing an encroaching pattern of a rather light brown colour mostly at the right side and recently across the top and now at the left upper top as well. My question is this - has anyone here experienced this sort of invasion on an NEC display and what would be perhaps the expected life span of these displays on average? I'm not doing as much business now so I cannot rationalize another $1800.00 CDN, but at some point I will have to purchase another display of some sort. I also have a PA241 that I've had for approximately 6 years and it is not displaying any such issue, but it has not seen nearly the amount of usage as the 27", in case that could perhaps be the reason for the issue on the 27".
Any replies will be much appreciated. :)
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How many hours of use are recorded on each display?
To answer your question however, no.
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I don't know where you got this rubbish from. Here are the specs for basICColor Display from the basICColor website (https://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-5-en/):
Macintosh:
Mac OS X 10.6 (Intel), Mac OS X 10.7, Mac OS X 10.8, Mac OS X 10.9,
Mac OS X 10.10, Mac OS X 10.11, macOS 10.12, macOS 10.13
Intel® Core-Duo-Processor
1GB RAM, 250MB Available Disk Space, minimum
Graphic Card and Monitor Supporting 1280x1024 Pixel and 24 Bit Color Depth
Mark, the link you posted just takes me to a login page so I can’t verify what you wrote but macOS 10.13 is two versions ago so perhaps the post you were responding to is correct and BasICColor doesn’t support the current Mac OS?
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BasICColor, as a company, unfortinately became insolvent this spring (see article in german (http://www.di-branche.de/DIGITAL-IMAGING/newsletter/default.asp?nws_item=49102&i_item=49102&nws_step=999&nws_start=1)). That's why there is no access to basiccolor.de actually (Marc, how did you manage to copy the specs?)
Luckily, Karl Koch and team members from BasICColor (re)developed "Display version 6". Became available some weeks ago for Mac, Win should follow. I know two dealers in Germany who sell it: Kruegercolor (https://www.dr-juergen-krueger.de/colormanagement_loesungen_von_basiccolor.htm) and Photolux (https://www.photolux-shop.de/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Basiccolor&categories_id=&manufacturers_id=&pfrom=&pto=) (on request). dtculturalheritage (https://dtculturalheritage.com/basiccolor-returns/) sells BasICColor, too.
New ver. 6 is able to address hardware LUTs on my PA271Q (ver. 5 was not! Some W versions get hardware support from ver. 5, so better check). As it would be nonsense (in my view) to use software calibration/profiling with a monitor capable of hardware calibration, this is the only alternative to Spectraview II on a PA271Q. Both products run on Catalina.
Display 6 is able to address all 10 memory locations of my PA271Q (while SPII can only address one slot, Nr. 5). It seems to be redesigned (new UI, don't know about changes under the hood) and suffers of some child deseases, but I got provided with a couple of updates during the last weeks.
In my view SPII offers more possibilities in adapting white point, gamma, etc. but suffers from only addressing one LUT memory location. Although settings (and measurement data) can be saved inside SPII and later loaded into memory, AFAIK this takes a little longer than switching memory locations in Display 6.
In my view, Display 6 is less versatile, but easier to use then SPII. According to Dr. Krueger (and Mark on ver. 5, see above) it provides better monitor profiles then SPII - which I haven't tested/measured yet. Visually compared, both products provide me with good profiles. I plan to run some comparison tests in the next weeks (ok, after christmas. Or after turn of the year ;-).
Btw, Display 6 can configure some viewing booths as well.
Hope that helps making a decision.
Regards, Michael