Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => But is it Art? => Topic started by: 32BT on July 25, 2018, 10:08:38 am
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It's interesting, if you frequently visits sites like LuLa with above average creative contributors, you might end up in a bit of a filterbubble thinking it a good crosssection of the world at large. But probably in reality 90% of the people lack creative inspiration of any kind, and that is probably what shows here as well, because when you ask yourself: what good can i do with all this dough, for myself or others, would you end up in a fur coat?
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/lauren-greenfield-generation-wealth-documentary-1321667
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...would you end up in a fur coat?...
If you experienced Chicago winters, hell yeah ;)
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“I often look at the extremes to understand the mainstream,” says artist and photographer Lauren Greenfield.
That's drivel, which fatally undermines anything else she has to say (which, from the article, is pretty much negligible anyway).
Jeremy
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“I often look at the extremes to understand the mainstream,” says artist and photographer Lauren Greenfield.
That's drivel, which fatally undermines anything else she has to say (which, from the article, is pretty much negligible anyway).
Jeremy
Jeremy
Your looking at that like a lawyer, Lauren is looking at it as an Artist.
Peter
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I remember my muse having a rather fetching shortie fur coat; I remember it because it was fun wearing it over my shoulders as she worked in the snow at my local park... what's good for Mick's probably good enough for me, too, sometimes.
Rather fancied myself in one, but the closest we got was a cast-off from my mother that suited my wife a lot better. Of course, this was all before the current shift in sensibilities... however, I can assure you that a fur is much warmer than a leather jacket that, sans fleece, is no bloody good at all as insulation from cold.
Those ladies from Edinburgh sure were onto something.
Don't we all feel so much better knowing that?
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Don't we all feel so much better knowing that?
Rob,
Immensely... :~)
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From the article:
“It does feel like we’re kind of hurtling toward the apocalypse,” Greenfield admitted, adding that Donald Trump’s election influenced the direction of the film. (Footage from the president’s campaign rallies and former reality show, The Apprentice, has been incorporated into the film.) “I wanted to show the culture that made him possible. He was the symptom of a diseased culture.”
No mention of the symptom of phoniness and deceit named "Hillary." "Yin" does not exist without "yang." I would probably watch the film if given a chance. I did enjoy watching the "Queen of Versailles." I sometimes felt that her intent was to make me envious of people with great wealth, but that missed its mark. I'm happy with what I have and am enjoying life.
"The man who knows enough is enough, will always have enough."
Lao Tsu, 5th C. BC
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From the article:
“It does feel like we’re kind of hurtling toward the apocalypse,” Greenfield admitted, adding that Donald Trump’s election influenced the direction of the film. (Footage from the president’s campaign rallies and former reality show, The Apprentice, has been incorporated into the film.) “I wanted to show the culture that made him possible. He was the symptom of a diseased culture.”
No mention of the symptom of phoniness and deceit named "Hillary." "Yin" does not exist without "yang." I would probably watch the film if given a chance. I did enjoy watching the "Queen of Versailles." I sometimes felt that her intent was to make me envious of people with great wealth, but that missed its mark. I'm happy with what I have and am enjoying life.
"The man who knows enough is enough, will always have enough."
Lao Tsu, 5th C. BC
Trouble is, that's retrospective knowledge.
When you are young, working, you have no idea what lies ahead, and unless an artist - a breed that often does not think too far ahead, being preoccupied with other powerful instincts than survival - then your instinct is to work to better the present and protect the future.
From the few über-rich I have kown - three dead, more to go - the survival game does not feature at all; it's pretty much assumed from birth. What seems to be the drive is to create business ahead, try to make more successful what exists or explore what new direction one might venture... in other words, the mindset is not one I could ever have felt mine. Of that handful I've know, none was of the type that gives offspring carte blanche and open Amex. One was lent the yacht for his honeymoon, but had to pay for the fuel for the speedboat tender... his (the young son's) working day was full looking after business, 7/7. They all seemed to be that way.
Maybe the difference is this: showbiz offspring don't often come from a family that worked building up business: they come from the equivalent of lottery winners. The work ethic isn't there, usually - how could it be? Hence, flash lives, drugs, waste on epic scale followed, possibly, by early death or bankruptcy.
Aphorism is great for writers - and politicians.
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The Greenfield work is interesting as a social document. Centuries from now, if we as a species live that long, theatrical (movie, VR) set and costume designers will be studying photographs like this for whatever plays are written about the New Gilded Age.
I look at the wretched excess and see people whose main preoccupation is buying stuff, the "best" stuff. Positively exhausting, being a Lady who Lunches, I would think. I have half-brothers who grew up idolizing Big Money, and one of them married a hedge fund heiress. Sounds positively like Edith Wharton novel.
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From experience: there’s a spending threshold above which, if you choose to cross it, you can no longer buy things that free you up and instead must start buying things that tie you down. This threshold is lower than you likely imagine.
The wealthiest person I know lives with a lighter footprint than I do. My aim is to live more like him.
The public's fascination with wealth and fixation on the external trappings of wealth, as made manifest by its most extreme & obscene performance artists, is indeed IMO symptomatic of moral & spiritual disease.
-Dave-
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“I often look at the extremes to understand the mainstream,” says artist and photographer Lauren Greenfield.
That's drivel, which fatally undermines anything else she has to say (which, from the article, is pretty much negligible anyway).
Jeremy
Bit harsh! Seems like a valid strategy to me.
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<snip>
The public's fascination with wealth and fixation on the external trappings of wealth, as made manifest by its most extreme & obscene performance artists, is indeed IMO symptomatic of moral & spiritual disease.
-Dave-
You know, I started as a postman's son and I'm now pretty affluent and will admit to occasional conservative tendencies when it comes to economics. I don't really think people worship money -- I know a billionaire, and he isn't worshipped. It's celebrity that's worshipped. I gotta say, the annual Met Ball is enough to drive one into the arms of the Trotskyites. I know, I know, good cause and all, but I watched the movie about it and I really couldn't believe that we would have that shlt in America. It looks like something Louis XIV might have thought up after a six-day drunk, and f*ck the peasants. It really sickened me. I was clicking around on TV tonight and encountered an ad for some obscure movie star awards and there were hundreds of people there to scream. Those celebrities are f*ckin' **actors.** They do almost nothing worthwhile. We elected a f*ckin' actor to be President and his show even sucked. In our culture, people apparently believe that Tom Cruise can fly fighter jets and shoot down representatives of the Yellow Peril; that Hugh Jackman has claws made of adamantium, which doesn't even exist; that a dimwitted party girl like Princess Di is worthy of worship. WTF? IMHO, the most honest celebrity around is Kim Kardashian, who doesn't pretend to be anything other than what she is, a money-grubbing sensationalist who will sell her own ass to get on TV.
Pardon the rant; some things set me off.
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You know, I started as a postman's son and I'm now pretty affluent and will admit to occasional conservative tendencies when it comes to economics. I don't really think people worship money -- I know a billionaire, and he isn't worshipped. It's celebrity that's worshipped.
Yes, you've said it more precisely than I did. In part I had in mind the TV show Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, though there I suppose it's less the money that attracts people than the lifestyle they imagine flows from the money. The "rich dude clichés," as a friend of mine puts it.
-Dave-
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I don't really think people worship money -- I know a billionaire, and he isn't worshipped. It's celebrity that's worshipped.
While I don't disagree with your general thesis, and certainly not with your view of "celebrities", your first sentence confuses the worship of money with that of the people who have it.
Jeremy
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While I don't disagree with your general thesis, and certainly not with your view of "celebrities", your first sentence confuses the worship of money with that of the people who have it.
Jeremy
Very true...many rich do worship the money.
Peter
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Jeremy
Your looking at that like a lawyer, Lauren is looking at it as an Artist.
Peter
Right on, Peter.
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Why do the extremely wealthy have such bad taste? Clothes, art, interior decoration.... Yes, I know that the Greenfield subjects are not entirely representative, as many extremely wealthy people don't even want Architectural Digest to photo their digs.
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Why do the extremely wealthy have such bad taste? Clothes, art, interior decoration.... Yes, I know that the Greenfield subjects are not entirely representative, as many extremely wealthy people don't even want Architectural Digest to photo their digs.
Were I a celebrity of some kind, the last thing I'd do is invite the world's press to snoop around my home, yacht or whatever. The less temptation out there, the less free info. given thieves, kidnappers and sundry bad asses the better. They do due diligence too, you know.
Regarding the collected art: perhaps if the pix are being collected as investment, then the "guidance" of a gallerist may be very useful in ensuring that money gets made and not lost. Of all folks, they must have the best idea of where perceived values lie. So, you either send it straight into a safe place or you display it for a bit of pleasure and entertainment.
Clothes? I dress like a pauper except that my jeans, for at least since the 70s, have been exclusively Levis. If some people can get all their clothes made to fit, perhaps they might look better in them than if they bought off the peg as I have to do.
Interior decoration? Well, I suppose that in the USA some feel that looking European classic may smell of good taste; unless one has a lot of space, most of that colourful, heavy stuff looks awful. That said, as a relatively middle-class guy at the time, I did sell some good wooden furniture we had and swapped to the glass 'n' chrome stuff during the early 70s. It turned sour quite quickly. Today, if I ever get to sell my place in Spain, I intend to get a smaller pad and turn most of it into open plan, except for the bedroom, bathroom and kitchen, of course, and furnish with as little as possible. Less junk means less cleaning, and even my modest abode of today takes me forever to clean when anyone is expected to come round. As I am a photographer, I have always tried to ensure our walls were basically white; my first studio sported a red ceiling in one room, but it looked stupid (it was 1966, after all), and home was always pretty much white...in Scotland one needed all the light one could get. And my snaps and calendars looked better against white.
Trouble is, the wealthy appear be in love with ornate wallpaper, so they start off at a massive disadvantage. Even if they eventually call in the troops and get it all painted white, the vile colours may vanish, but the textures, the textures...
:-)
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Were I a celebrity of some kind, the last thing I'd do is invite the world's press to snoop around my home, yacht or whatever.
Ah, but Rob, the reason you aren't a celebrity of some kind (save in our own little community, of course), is that you don't have the wish to show off to the world's press.
And what a sensible chap you are!
Jeremy
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Trouble is, the wealthy appear be in love with ornate wallpaper, so they start off at a massive disadvantage. Even if they eventually call in the troops and get it all painted white, the vile colours may vanish, but the textures, the textures...
:-)
Brilliantly observed, Rob!
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People who are compelled to flaunt their wealth, and the stuff they've bought with it, are also highly likely to be tasteless. The one is related to the other. ;D Lack of self-awareness & self-regard, the need to be paid attention to (thus the public loudness & tacky/gaudy "æsthetic") and so gain a kind of sense-of-self & sense-of-worth from the outside in…it's all of a piece.
-Dave-
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A few years back, I attended the Association of International Photography Art Dealers, or AIPAD, as it’s more commonly known, held at the Park Avenue Armory, in NYC. There were lots of Ansel Adams B/W prints. Many dealers apparently sell his stuff. I saw three different Sunrise over Hernandez prints. One dealer had his at around $80,000; another at $115,000 and the last at around $140,000.
So I'm standing at the last dealer, the one with the $140,000 edition, when in flows this attention grabbing couple. He, a rather ordinary fifty something year old dressed to kill, and she, a knock-out blond about half his age. So I overhear him telling her, "This is nothing. My Hernandez cost me $180,000." As they drifted away, he had a smile on his face. And she, well, I think she was impressed. I was. But not about the $180,000. Or that he had an Adams Hernandez. I was impressed that he had such a hot girlfriend. :)
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A few years back, I attended the Association of International Photography Art Dealers, or AIPAD, as it’s more commonly known, held at the Park Avenue Armory, in NYC. There were lots of Ansel Adams B/W prints. Many dealers apparently sell his stuff. I saw three different Sunrise over Hernandez prints. One dealer had his at around $80,000; another at $115,000 and the last at around $140,000.
So I'm standing at the last dealer, the one with the $140,000 edition, when in flows this attention grabbing couple. He, a rather ordinary fifty something year old dressed to kill, and she, a knock-out blond about half his age. So I overhear him telling her, "This is nothing. My Hernandez cost me $180,000." As they drifted away, he had a smile on his face. And she, well, I think she was impressed. I was. But not about the $180,000. Or that he had an Adams Hernandez. I was impressed that he had such a hot girlfriend. :)
He didn't have a hot girlfriend: his wallet did.
:-)
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He didn't have a hot girlfriend: his wallet did.
:-)
Gives new meaning to: is that your wallet? Or are you just glad to see me?
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Gives new meaning to: is that your wallet? Or are you just glad to see me?
Middle of the day really is a creative time for you!
:-)
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During my CA trip this past June my friend (who I was visiting) & I went out to dinner, for kicks, at a very tony restaurant. The kind of place where the diners are there to eye each other up as much as have a meal. :D The couple at the table left of us, from my perspective, were the stereotypical old dude and much younger blond woman. Old dude was going on about some business thing or other while young woman lapped it up with what was clearly exaggerated interest. The played and the player. At one point I happened to look over and lock eyes with the woman. Probably had an amused look on my face. In response she gave me a wry smile. Hope she's getting whatever it is she wants.
-Dave-
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During my CA trip this past June my friend (who I was visiting) & I went out to dinner, for kicks, at a very tony restaurant. The kind of place where the diners are there to eye each other up as much as have a meal. :D The couple at the table left of us, from my perspective, were the stereotypical old dude and much younger blond woman. Old dude was going on about some business thing or other while young woman lapped it up with what was clearly exaggerated interest. The played and the player. At one point I happened to look over and lock eyes with the woman. Probably had an amused look on my face. In response she gave me a wry smile. Hope she's getting whatever it is she wants.
-Dave-
Dave,
They always do until they don't...And then they do in court.
Peter
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Seems that unless you get it right early on, the mating game is a pretty miserable, expensive experience.
I can understand the therapeutic desire for the hot wheels: takes you to a different place, even if, when you park, it's just the same old place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj0o0QO2riY
;-)
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As a couple who have lived most of their lives living hand to mouth I'm sure we would risk a taste-bypass in exchange for extreme wealth.
;-)
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As a couple who have lived most of their lives living hand to mouth I'm sure we would risk a taste-bypass in exchange for extreme wealth.
;-)
May I be smitten with such an affliction. Just long enough, to be determined by me.
Peter
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May I be smitten with such an affliction. Just long enough, to be determined by me.
Your thought has been had before, Peter. From Fiddler on the Roof:
Perchik: Money is the world's curse.
Tevye: May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover.
Jeremy
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Your thought has been had before, Peter. From Fiddler on the Roof:
Perchik: Money is the world's curse.
Tevye: May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover.
Jeremy
I Know....I first heard that line on Broadway in the sixties as a young boy, and have been wish for that horror ever since. LOL
Peter
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I Know....I first heard that line on Broadway in the sixties as a young boy, and have been wish for that horror ever since. LOL
And I heard it in London, in the sixties, as a young boy. We must be of an age, Peter - you can't be 244 after all, despite the claim in your profile.
Jeremy
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As a couple who have lived most of their lives living hand to mouth I'm sure we would risk a taste-bypass in exchange for extreme wealth.
;-)
Hand-to-mouth is, after all, a relative experience.
My hand-to-mouth is another's heaven, but yet another's suicide call.
I sort of guestimate that after the first forty million squids one can become content, complacent, even. And possibly, therein the danger of losing the lot.
They used to say that he who dies with the most toys wins, but that was a very '80s thing, and paid no heed to the sense of responsibility those goddam toys bring after the unwrapping. Today, post-2008, I think folks have a different take, and possibly think of high numbers in terms of survival insurance rather than acquisitions.
I had a business friend who was always looking for expansion. He ended up losing most of what he had, wife included, for nothing more than, on the one hand, chasing his long-gone youth and, on the other, dreams of even more wealth than he had amassed already.
Lucky the guy who finds his level and has enough squirreled away to make it last his lifetime.
Rob
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And I heard it in London, in the sixties, as a young boy. We must be of an age, Peter - you can't be 244 after all, despite the claim in your profile.
Jeremy
I must fix that...Imagine to be 244. That would be something, but living that long I certainly would run out money.
Peter
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Not necessarily, Peter. You could make a living appearing in a circus.
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Not necessarily, Peter. You could make a living appearing in a circus.
Brilliant!
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Your thought has been had before, Peter. From Fiddler on the Roof:
Perchik: Money is the world's curse.
Tevye: May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover.
I saw Fiddler On The Roof, with Zero Mostel, at the Fisher Theatre in Detroit in 1976. Members of the Fisher family were in attendance that night, and Mostel played up quips like the one above for maximum laughter. There were tears of mirth running down many faces. Mine may have been among them. ;)
Fiddler… actually premiered at the Fisher in 1964, in a kind of shakedown cruise, before moving to Broadway.
-Dave-
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I saw Fiddler On The Roof, with Zero Mostel, at the Fisher Theatre in Detroit in 1976. Members of the Fisher family were in attendance that night, and Mostel played up quips like the one above for maximum laughter. There were tears of mirth running down many faces. Mine may have been among them. ;)
Fiddler… actually premiered at the Fisher in 1964, in a kind of shakedown cruise, before moving to Broadway.
-Dave-
I saw Zero Mostel twice, once as a lad in the 60's and then in 1976 whilst I was learning how to wield a brush.
Peter
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... I saw three different Sunrise over Hernandez prints. One dealer had his at around $80,000; another at $115,000 and the last at around $140,000...
Too bad they were all fake.
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Too bad they were all fake.
Glad you're posting again; was wondering where you were.
Rob
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Glad you're posting again; was wondering where you were.
Ha! Nice. I’ve been traveling. Belgrade, Serbia, currently in Nicosia, Cyprus. Might post some pics soon.
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Too bad they were all fake.
Why do you say that?
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Why do you say that?
Because there is no such thing as “Sunrise over Hernandez,” just “Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico.” 😊
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Sweet revenge on the rich is illustrated by the meme “Buy experiences, not things.”
My best value in that meme was stopping dead in my tracks and pulling off the road in amazement in New Mexico one day back in the 70s. There it was, right outside my windshield, the little white crosses, the whole nine yards. Yes, I was in Hernandez, New Mexico. I have a Kodachrome of it, somewhere.
The scene is gone now, Hernandez is no more. But the memory, the experience, is intact.
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Because there is no such thing as “Sunrise over Hernandez,” just “Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico.”
Well, that's why they were so expensive. The Sunrise over Hernandez are rarer.😏
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Ha! Nice. I’ve been traveling. Belgrade, Serbia, currently in Nicosia, Cyprus. Might post some pics soon.
Please do!
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Of course…you can have a decent pile o' dough socked away and still value experiences more than it. You can even use it to expand your reach of places to experience. The danger, beyond fixating on bank and investment account balances, is in using money to isolate yourself from the rest of humanity and of the world. You can visit a place in a certain detached way and never really be there.
-Dave-
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That whole thing about **taste** usually refers to objects and styles, but taste isn't innate. It's something you acquire after quite a bit of searching and contemplation. A lot of rich people don't have time for that, because they're doing whatever they do to get rich. And what they do to get rich is often intensely interesting, IMHO. Compelling, even. A lot of it doesn't even have to do with gathering money, but with competition, learning about how the world works, negotiating with a wide variety of people from other cultures, etc. The money is often a by-product. I'm not denying that there are people who are no more than unethical money-grubbers, but as a former longtime newspaper reporter, I met a lot of super-rich people and found that many of them have extraordinary insights into the way the world works, in the sphere they're dealing with.
Of all the art forms, I think photography (which I love and collect) tends to have the largest number of people with poor taste. There's a reason for that -- a very large number of people who may become good technical photographers are in it for essentially wannabe reasons. To a very talented engineer, photography seems to be an art form that is accessible. You can be a screamingly good coder or engineer, but still feel that something is missing in life (art.) That's why we see, on so many forums, the emphasis on autofocus speed, sensor size, IBIS, and so on. They are *engineering* concerns. There are Sony fixed-zoom consumer cameras out there that can take better technical pictures than anything Ansel Adams ever used, but in engineering terms, they just can't hold a candle to the latest D850 or Canon equivalent. So, we wind up with a lot of really inane photography. Especially landscapes. And the reason for that is the same reason that rich people often have poor taste in objects and styles -- many engineers really don't have time to develop it.
I do think that disparities in wealth can be terribly corrosive, both personally and culturally, and especially when the wealth in a small segment of society becomes extreme. But it doesn't have to become extreme to see it. There's an old Russian story about the peasant whose ox dies. He doesn't pray for a new ox; he prays that his neighbor's ox dies.
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I think that's a rather limited view of photography as art for the average person. We're not all Ansels or HCB or whoever. There are loads of amateur musicians who will never make a recording, amateur cooks who will never become restaurant chefs, and painters who will never become Van Gogh. Even Van Gogh almost didn't become Van Gogh. He starved while alive and most living engineers would prefer to eat. In the end, there's nothing wrong with experiencing art to the best of a person's capability even though God made us all different in our skills. There appears to be a creative instinct in all of us. Certainly we should be free to create.