Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => Street Showcase => Topic started by: Martin Kristiansen on July 20, 2018, 03:35:14 am

Title: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 20, 2018, 03:35:14 am
I have been shooting these memorials for about a year now. It have had some interest from a gallery owner wanting to give me an exhibition, depending on the quality of the work. I have not really shown any of these images up until now. Think I must have shot about 30 of them so far
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Tony Jay on July 20, 2018, 03:48:20 am
Is that a memorial to a road accident death or a death from violence (hijacking, taxi feuds, etc)?

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 20, 2018, 03:53:37 am
I donít know. The name on the memorial in the Afrikaans work for Jackal, Jakkals in Afrikaans. It could be a highjacking but it would be an unusual place for that as people are most commonly hijacked at entrances to homes and so on. If it was taxi violence I donít think it would be an Afrikaans nickname. Could be a pedestrian or cycling death.

Thatís the thing with these memorials, the sense of mystery. I find I almost always come up with some or other narrative. This one really is odd though.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Tony Jay on July 20, 2018, 07:51:03 am
I donít know. The name on the memorial in the Afrikaans work for Jackal, Jakkals in Afrikaans. It could be a highjacking but it would be an unusual place for that as people are most commonly hijacked at entrances to homes and so on. If it was taxi violence I donít think it would be an Afrikaans nickname. Could be a pedestrian or cycling death.

Thatís the thing with these memorials, the sense of mystery. I find I almost always come up with some or other narrative. This one really is odd though.
Thanks Martin!

In any developed country a memorial like that would almost certainly represent a death from a road accident - but in South Africa anything is possible...

BTW I am an ex-pat, living now in Australia, but still travel regularly to Southern Africa...

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 20, 2018, 08:39:47 am
It is an odd image, but very compelling.
I'd like to see more of the series.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 20, 2018, 08:53:40 am
Thanks Martin!

In any developed country a memorial like that would almost certainly represent a death from a road accident - but in South Africa anything is possible...

BTW I am an ex-pat, living now in Australia, but still travel regularly to Southern Africa...

Tony Jay

I guessed by your questions that you had local knowledge.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 13, 2018, 02:22:49 pm
Another from this series. Shot on Sunday.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivo_B on August 13, 2018, 03:39:14 pm
I have been shooting these memorials for about a year now. It have had some interest from a gallery owner wanting to give me an exhibition, depending on the quality of the work. I have not really shown any of these images up until now. Think I must have shot about 30 of them so far

Interesting subject! I like to see more!
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 14, 2018, 03:59:21 am
Thanks Ivo. I have shot many of these memorials. More than 30 I think. I have a few people interested in helping me towards an exhibition. Itís time to start looking for funding I think.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 14, 2018, 02:56:42 pm
Thanks Ivo. I have shot many of these memorials. More than 30 I think. I have a few people interested in helping me towards an exhibition. Itís time to start looking for funding I think.

30 images makes a nice exhibition. How do you want to print and mount?
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 14, 2018, 03:26:32 pm
Iím playing with a few ideas. Some I may do as a triptych. Playing on the theme of religious icons. I have found another 5 I want to shoot in the next week. One other close by I didnít do well I need to try again. Still playing with colour and post to get a coherent message. Iím about a year away from finishing this

Have a gallery owner interested and a very senior curator helping me as well. Iím enjoying the process very much
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: ned on August 15, 2018, 09:08:59 am
Nice project, Iíve had the same idea but never did anything with it (like many ideas).  Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Two23 on August 15, 2018, 09:36:18 am
I tend to shoot these with a 1904 Kodak Brownie. :)


Kent in SD

Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 15, 2018, 09:49:18 am
I tend to shoot these with a 1904 Kodak Brownie. :)


Kent in SD

Any particular reason for that?
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 15, 2018, 03:25:23 pm
Iím playing with a few ideas. Some I may do as a triptych. Playing on the theme of religious icons. I have found another 5 I want to shoot in the next week. One other close by I didnít do well I need to try again. Still playing with colour and post to get a coherent message. Iím about a year away from finishing this

Have a gallery owner interested and a very senior curator helping me as well. Iím enjoying the process very much

Good luck, Martin!
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Two23 on August 15, 2018, 06:55:53 pm
Any particular reason for that?


Yes, primarily image quality.  The uncoated single meniscus lens in the Brownie, couple with the vagaries of focus and low contrast, create a very ethereal look I just can't get with modern equipment.  The center is reasonably sharp but that rapidly falls off away from center.  It gives me a more timeless look, something I rarely find in current photography.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 18, 2018, 08:45:19 am
And another. Even I know this isnít street. Sorry Russ
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: brianrybolt on August 18, 2018, 02:14:52 pm
Good luck with your project.  I think it has lots of potential.  Would make a great book.  Where do you think it might be exhibited?

Best,
Brian
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 18, 2018, 03:35:41 pm
Good luck with your project.  I think it has lots of potential.  Would make a great book.  Where do you think it might be exhibited?

Best,
Brian

I would look firstly in Johannesburg. Now my home town so more easily arranged. I have someone interested but donít want to say anything ahead of time. I would prefer a smaller space I think but that might change. Would love a book. That interests me the most. In the next few months Iím going to start looking for funding. Who knows. I could get lucky.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Riaan van Wyk on August 19, 2018, 03:13:35 am
Martin, interesting subject, here in Kwazulu Natal one doesn't often see these. What I have noticed though are plaques people are putting up on the dolosses on the harbour wall, if I go there this afternoon I'll take a cellpic and share.

On another note: how are you going to publish the work in book form in SA? I've researched this for almost two years now and I can't find an avenue that makes any financial sense.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 19, 2018, 05:45:33 am
If you would post the images that would be very interesting. Thank you. Who puts the memorials up and for what? Is it road dearthís? Is so I will down to shoot them shortly. I grew up in KZN. Went to school in Pinetown, Dundee and Maritzburg. Born in Newcastle. I am often down that way and donít need much of an excuse to visit.

I am going to try and find a sponsor for the book. I agree that a book makes no financial sense in South Africa. Unless you want to reduce your tax burden and I donít have that problem. I am prepared to self publish if I must.

Strange that you donít see the memorials much in KZN. What I can tell you is most of the names on the memorials are Afrikaans. A few black names and a very few English. The Afrikaans names could of course be colored but the colored community up here is very small. Perhaps this is more of an Afrikaans cultural phenomena in South Africa. I wonder if I would find more in upcountry KZN where the Afrikaans community is larger than in Durban for example.

There are also more of these things than people realize. I have found about 25 in fairly close proximity, two hour drive, to where I live. When I tell people they are always surprised. People donít notice them. I spotted two on a road I have driven several times in the past month so yesterday went out to shoot them. Drove slowly and found six on that road in total. I didnít notice them on a general drive and I am always on the lookout.

If you spot any please let me know. Next time I head to the coast I will look them up. Perhaps we could meet for a coffee if you are up for that.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 08:17:00 am
Hi Martin, Here's one from New Mexico in 2003. New Mexico is loaded with these. Their approach to keeping down drunk driving is to post signs along the highways saying "Don't drink and drive." The number of roadside shrines attests to the fact that many drivers are too drunk to be able to read the signs. I like your roadside shrine shots, but would somebody please explain to me what this has to do with street photography?
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 19, 2018, 09:14:10 am
It has nothing to do with street photography now. I posted the first image which I felt did fit as a street photograph then I posted more images from the series that kind of drifted from the theme as street. In my defense I would say that this is not the most a thread has ever drifted from its intended theme.

Feel free to ignore anything I post here. You were in the military were you not Russ? So was I, almost 5 years. It wasnít a good fit. Iím not great at rules. Iím conscientious, hard working, tidy, honest and totally sober. Just never did get my head around rules that seemed pointless to me. Now Iím too old to care or really try.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 09:35:48 am
Thanks, Martin, Thatís a fair explanation, and I agree the thread has ďdriftedĒ away from that initial picture. ďJumpedĒ probably would be a better word for what happened. But I still donít understand what connects that first image to street photography. Are you familiar with Cartier-Bresson or Robert Frank or Elliott Erwitt or Garry Winogrand or Helen Levitt? Iím sorry if I come across as a pest, but street photography has been my favorite thing since 1953, when the Korean war ended and I was in Taegu. Yes, I spent 27 years in the Air Force and went to war three times. In many ways I didnít fit the mold any better than you did, but I fought a lot of the BS successfully, and I loved to fly.

And Iím kicking myself for pushing for a Street Showcase here in LuLa. I wish we could get rid of it. The problem is that itís confusing people. Many seem to think that if they have a photo with a street in it, thatís street photography. Instead of launching into an extended explanation, let me point you to an article I did that was published on LuLa a couple years ago: https://luminous-landscape.com/on-street-photography/.

Iíll drop it at this point. Keep shooting.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: brianrybolt on August 19, 2018, 09:38:28 am
Hi Martin, Here's one from New Mexico in 2003. New Mexico is loaded with these. Their approach to keeping down drunk driving is to post signs along the highways saying "Don't drink and drive." The number of roadside shrines attests to the fact that many drivers are too drunk to be able to read the signs. I like your roadside shrine shots, but would somebody please explain to me what this has to do with street photography?

I find it obvious.  They're by or near to the street.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 09:43:57 am
Thanks, Brian. You just illustrated my point vividly.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 19, 2018, 09:49:39 am
Russ of course I am familiar with Robert Frank. In fact I have his book the Americans. Fair number of images in it that you wouldnít call street I think. I am also very familiar with Bresson. He also shot many images that are not street. Using them as a definition of street is not useful as so much that they did isnít street. So that leaves us once again lacking a real definition.

Let me tell you why I think of this as street. Years ago I saw a great food photograph. In a recipe book. It was a white plate with some brown smears on it and a dirty fork. Recipe was for a chocolate mous. Point is it was so great it was eaten before it could be photographed. My images show death, loss and the attempt by people to immortalize a dead person. All futile and no one to be seen. Itís all about loss. Empty gestures by missing people to dead person. The people are not present, just like the chocolate mous.

Rules are fine Russ, just like the rules of composition. They give you a point of entry and allow a sense of useful rule breaking or rule following. A balance.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: 32BT on August 19, 2018, 10:18:22 am
Russ of course I am familiar with Robert Frank. In fact I have his book the Americans. Fair number of images in it that you wouldnít call street I think. I am also very familiar with Bresson. He also shot many images that are not street. Using them as a definition of street is not useful as so much that they did isnít street. So that leaves us once again lacking a real definition.

Let me tell you why I think of this as street. Years ago I saw a great food photograph. In a recipe book. It was a white plate with some brown smears on it and a dirty fork. Recipe was for a chocolate mous. Point is it was so great it was eaten before it could be photographed. My images show death, loss and the attempt by people to immortalize a dead person. All futile and no one to be seen. Itís all about loss. Empty gestures by missing people to dead person. The people are not present, just like the chocolate mous.

Rules are fine Russ, just like the rules of composition. They give you a point of entry and allow a sense of useful rule breaking or rule following. A balance.

The difference though between the chocolate mousse and the shrine is that the former contains a (relatable) story, whereas the shrine tells us prescious little, like an unsolvable puzzle: you can still claim it is a puzzle, but it isn't helping one to consciously or subconsciously fill in the blanks and get a jolt or a higher learning.

In that sense the chocolate mousse picture could be considered "better" street than a shrine. In addition it helps if there are actual humans in the picture that somehow relate to the shrine in a way that makes one think about that relation. Or they obviously caring or careless toward the shrine? (The latter could help to relate the story for example that these shrines have become so ubiquitous that people be become imune toward their meaning).

I vividly remember a picture by a former contributor showing a veteran at the wall of remembrance probably looking for a name, and there is a shadow of a swordlike shape pointing at his head. That makes for great symbolism, that triggers thought. It triggers thoughts in a way that just a shrine, or just the wall with names does not.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 19, 2018, 10:53:17 am
The difference though between the chocolate mousse and the shrine is that the former contains a (relatable) story, whereas the shrine tells us prescious little, like an unsolvable puzzle: you can still claim it is a puzzle, but it isn't helping one to consciously or subconsciously fill in the blanks and get a jolt or a higher learning.

In that sense the chocolate mousse picture could be considered "better" street than a shrine. In addition it helps if there are actual humans in the picture that somehow relate to the shrine in a way that makes one think about that relation. Or they obviously caring or careless toward the shrine? (The latter could help to relate the story for example that these shrines have become so ubiquitous that people be become imune toward their meaning).

I vividly remember a picture by a former contributor showing a veteran at the wall of remembrance probably looking for a name, and there is a shadow of a swordlike shape pointing at his head. That makes for great symbolism, that triggers thought. It triggers thoughts in a way that just a shrine, or just the wall with names does not.

Yes well it was always a made up story to give Russ something to chew over. I realize itís not really street. Although I think the first image may have just about crept into that genre. By the way they arenít actually shrines. No deity present and not sacred as such. Memorials is what they are. Perhaps they look like shrines as known in other countries but the function and meaning is different in this context.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Two23 on August 19, 2018, 11:36:40 am
I take photos of these roadside shrines every now & then as they can be compelling subjects.  I've seen them from Hawaii to Pennsylvania so I know they must be pretty common in our culture.  Some can get a bit elaborate!  I usually photo them on a gray day, in b&w, with an ancient camera.  For me that captures the mood.  Is it "street" photography?  No.  That is an already defined genre, like portrait photography etc.  I do like seeing how different photographers approach the subject though.  I don't have a lot of authentic "street" photography as I mostly roam the more isolated areas of the Northern Plains, but when I do get to larger cities I am eager to load up a roll of FP4 and hit the downtown!  I am very much in favor of keeping Street Showcase as there aren't any other outlets for it and discussions that I'm aware of.  For me it's interesting and a valuable resource.  Perhaps we need another forum for these offbeat topics that don't really fit what we have?  I propose something like "Catch of the Day" or "Soup du Jour?"  "Catch of the Day" sounds, well, catchy! ;D


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 19, 2018, 12:19:36 pm
Well I started shooting these things while driving around looking for landscapes. I tend to place them in a landscape so perhaps I should have posted them there.

I wonít be posting anymore here as it seems to annoy so many people and Iím tired of the debate. Strange that I have always equated creativity with if not breaking rules then at least exploring ways to look at and interpret the rules. Seems that here we are a bit too conservative for that approach.

Very busy period coming up commercially and with personal projects. Need to focus on that a bit more.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 12:22:54 pm
Rules are fine Russ, just like the rules of composition. They give you a point of entry and allow a sense of useful rule breaking or rule following. A balance.

Which is exactly why I'd like to get rid of the LuLa Street Showcase. The name "street" in this instance gives a false idea of what street photography is all about unless you've learned what street photography IS all about. Of course HCB shot pictures that weren't street. His pictures of Ghandi's funeral were a long way from street. Capa advised him to call himself a photojournalist and to downplay the street photography. Frank shot pictures that weren't street, but damn few of them were in The Americans. The problem with LuLa's Street Showcase is that it simply intensifies the already existing confusion about street photography.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Two23 on August 19, 2018, 12:52:04 pm
Which is exactly why I'd like to get rid of the LuLa Street Showcase. The name "street" in this instance gives a false idea of what street photography is all about unless you've learned what street photography IS all about.


Get rid of it?  That seems a bit extreme.  It's been popular with members here, and I think it's a valuable outlet for these kinds of photos.  Sure, there are Flickr groups, but the main thing I get from LuLa is discussion/debate.  You just don't see much of that on Flickr etc.  All in all I believe it's been a plus for LuLa.  It has certainly perked up my own semi-dormant interest in the genre, and has helped give LuLa a more rounded offering in general.  While I completely understand your passion, perhaps being a little less.......strident, might in the end bring about the forum "purity" you seek?  A "My way or no way!" approach really doesn't advance your cause in the long run.  I personally am a bit dismayed that a talented & thoughtful photographer has been discouraged from posting photos.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Riaan van Wyk on August 19, 2018, 01:14:26 pm
If you would post the images that would be very interesting. Thank you. Who puts the memorials up and for what? Is it road dearthís? Is so I will down to shoot them shortly. I grew up in KZN. Went to school in Pinetown, Dundee and Maritzburg. Born in Newcastle. I am often down that way and donít need much of an excuse to visit.

I am going to try and find a sponsor for the book. I agree that a book makes no financial sense in South Africa. Unless you want to reduce your tax burden and I donít have that problem. I am prepared to self publish if I must.

Strange that you donít see the memorials much in KZN. What I can tell you is most of the names on the memorials are Afrikaans. A few black names and a very few English. The Afrikaans names could of course be colored but the colored community up here is very small. Perhaps this is more of an Afrikaans cultural phenomena in South Africa. I wonder if I would find more in upcountry KZN where the Afrikaans community is larger than in Durban for example.

There are also more of these things than people realize. I have found about 25 in fairly close proximity, two hour drive, to where I live. When I tell people they are always surprised. People donít notice them. I spotted two on a road I have driven several times in the past month so yesterday went out to shoot them. Drove slowly and found six on that road in total. I didnít notice them on a general drive and I am always on the lookout.

If you spot any please let me know. Next time I head to the coast I will look them up. Perhaps we could meet for a coffee if you are up for that.

Small world.  Born in Empangeni, schooled, married and divorced there and took flight to the northernmost part of KZN soon after, lived in the most rural area you could think of for five years. And then, to quote Uncle Kris, " met a good woman who showed me how to beat the devil"

Have been back in civilization a few years now and live in Richards Bay.

The plaques are more "reminders" it seems of someones passing it would seem. I don't see any trend with regard to who puts these up but in addition to the people you mention I saw an Indian name on one of them, we have a huge Indian community here so it would make sense.

It would be great to meet you Martin, I could also take you for an outing in the harbour here so you can see the treestumps that I have been irritating this forum with for years. Also to show you the plaques, as attached. If you need a place to stay over I'm also happy to oblige, The Blonde will be pleased to meet a real photographer/ artist for a change.

As an aside, I have a popular thread on a local 4x4 forum with various pics from my travels in Zululand, you might find some of it interesting.

https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/263776-Zululand-Travels-and-Pictures


Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 19, 2018, 02:24:01 pm
Unless a gatekeeper is appointed, this subforum will contain street photography the most people, bar a few initiated, understand as having something to do with street.

Besides, who are those HCBs, Franks, Winogrands, Levitts, etc. Who cares about dead photographers? Do they have Instagram accounts even?

We here, on LuLa, see preciously few good photographs posted. Discouraging a few that still manage to post some, like Martin, just because it doesnít fit the straitjacket definition, is a disservice to LuLa readers.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 19, 2018, 02:34:34 pm
Small world.  Born in Empangeni, schooled, married and divorced there and took flight to the northernmost part of KZN soon after, lived in the most rural area you could think of for five years. And then, to quote Uncle Kris, " met a good woman who showed me how to beat the devil"

Have been back in civilization a few years now and live in Richards Bay.

The plaques are more "reminders" it seems of someones passing it would seem. I don't see any trend with regard to who puts these up but in addition to the people you mention I saw an Indian name on one of them, we have a huge Indian community here so it would make sense.

It would be great to meet you Martin, I could also take you for an outing in the harbour here so you can see the treestumps that I have been irritating this forum with for years. Also to show you the plaques, as attached. If you need a place to stay over I'm also happy to oblige, The Blonde will be pleased to meet a real photographer/ artist for a change.

As an aside, I have a popular thread on a local 4x4 forum with various pics from my travels in Zululand, you might find some of it interesting.

https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/263776-Zululand-Travels-and-Pictures

I have photos taken of myself by my father while I floated around on Richards bay on a little boat. Not a building there. A clean Pretty lagoon. I will post.

I drive a Toyota 76 Landcruiser myself. Will definately check out your link and plan a visit.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 19, 2018, 03:05:59 pm


We here, on LuLa, see preciously few good photographs posted. Discouraging a few that still manage to post some, like Martin, just because it doesnít fit the straitjacket definition, is a disservice to LuLa readers.

Hear, hear.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 03:14:52 pm
Proves once again that ignorance is bliss. Street is a genre, just as landscape is a genre and informal portraiture is a genre. If you don't understand what belongs in the genre you're a lot better off posting in User Critiques.

But, sorry guys, I understand it's hopeless. You actually have to study a genre to understand what belongs in it. Fat chance of that happening on LuLa.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Two23 on August 19, 2018, 04:32:28 pm
Proves once again that ignorance is bliss. Street is a genre, just as landscape is a genre and informal portraiture is a genre. If you don't understand what belongs in the genre you're a lot better off posting in User Critiques.

But, sorry guys, I understand it's hopeless. You actually have to study a genre to understand what belongs in it. Fat chance of that happening on LuLa.


Maybe street photography is sort of like pornography?  There's no hard & fast objective way to define, but you know it when you see it? ;)

If it gives you any comfort, a month ago I bought a copy of Meyerowitz's book, "Bystander."  I'm slowly plowing through it.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 06:54:59 pm
Right, Kent. There's no fixed definition for it. How about a fixed definition for landscape? Can you give me one? Can anyone give me one?
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 19, 2018, 07:03:39 pm
Right, Kent. There's no fixed definition for it. How about a fixed definition for landscape? Can you give me one? Can anyone give me one?

No need. Everyone understands what it is.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Two23 on August 19, 2018, 07:10:30 pm
Right, Kent. There's no fixed definition for it. How about a fixed definition for landscape? Can you give me one?


No, I can't give you an objective definition for landscape photos.  However, I can tell the difference between landscapes & pornography. ;)


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 19, 2018, 07:27:52 pm
Back to the OP.

Roadside memorials seem to span geographies, continents, and religions. My first encounter was in my father's birth place, a village in Serbia, orthodox Christianity. But somehow I always connected it with a more primitive worldview, typical for what could be labeled as a provincial mentality. Never seen them in cities.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 07:46:35 pm
No need. Everyone understands what it is.

Really? Is this landscape? If not, why not?
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 19, 2018, 07:49:12 pm
Really? Is this landscape? If not, why not?

I was hoping we could go back to the OP.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 19, 2018, 07:50:41 pm
Come on, Slobodan. Answer the question.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 19, 2018, 09:14:57 pm
Come on, Slobodan. Answer the question.

It is a pigscape.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Alan Klein on August 19, 2018, 09:18:07 pm
Personally, I find roadside memorials out of place and an eyesore.  No disrespect to the family.  They seem to be a relatively new phenomenon.  I never saw these when I was younger. 
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 20, 2018, 02:24:46 am

No, I can't give you an objective definition for landscape photos.  However, I can tell the difference between landscapes & pornography. ;)


Kent in SD

Regular porno, or Facebook porno.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Rob C on August 20, 2018, 06:32:52 am
Regular porno, or Facebook porno.

And that's why genre is so important, and an understanding of what it signifies matters!

Porn itself is full of subdivisions that beggar belief. Every fetish has its special snappers and "artists" trying to get into the mainstream and thus into the big bucks and gallery representation. And often, they succeed. Ever wonder why Mapplethorpe managed to get representation in such a big way? Think about it. Not much to do with the Hasselblad, poor thing.

In the street department much confusion reigns because there hasn't been enough reading - sometimes - about its genesis. And that's where and why it often gets confused with reportage.

The vast majority of the early Parisian stuff was shot to order, as illustration for left-wing magazines and newspapers. As such, it wasn't street, but reportage, a story with a publication-led agenda. That's why we get so much "quaint" material shot in poor neighbourhoods full of raggedy kids, cheap cafťs and depicting layabouts and people doing hard, manual labour in markets. It's supposed to contrast the nobility of the poor workers and their honesty, on the one hand, with the decadent company owners (that employ them) on the other. (Even W. Eugene Smith's essay on Pittsburgh couldn't leave out references to the super-rich and their mansions, clubs and restaurants. Why do so many photographers have this hang-up?) Many of those new migrants, mainly Jewish, had to learn the language as they worked, making life even more complex as they plied the only trade they could. It's worth noting that few got rich out of photography when they were doing it for a living; yes, some went on to greater personal comfort and fame in much later life and in a very different social atmosphere where photography and art were presumed to have met.

Perhaps the most simple way to differentiate between street and documentary is this: documantary tries to tell a story about something over a spread of associated images, whereas street exists for no other purpose than to pick up on the quirks of mankind at large.

That's  the main reason why I feel that "street art" has to be seen under a different light: it isn't to do so much with people doing things that are odd or even peole looking a bit crazy themselves, it's about a sense of graphic design as found out there in the public domain, and mainly at street level, not up in the sky as with architectural street.

Anyway, real architectural photography is another animal altogether: it's a highly skilled specialist job of itself. I sometimes wonder how such photographers feel when confronted with what is loosely defined as architectural photography here and elsewhere within the amateur world. I suspect those folks are rather concerned with genre too!
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 20, 2018, 07:13:36 am
Thanks, Rob. I'd hope that explanation would have some effect, but I doubt it will. After all, if there's a street in the picture it must be street photography.

So I just posted my Vietnamese pig in Landscape Showcase. Let's see if the landscape people agree it's landscape. It's as much landscape photography as any recent stuff posted in Street Showcase is street photography.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 20, 2018, 07:31:46 am
And that's why genre is so important, and an understanding of what it signifies matters!

Porn itself is full of subdivisions that beggar belief. Every fetish has its special snappers and "artists" trying to get into the mainstream and thus into the big bucks and gallery representation. And often, they succeed. Ever wonder why Mapplethorpe managed to get representation in such a big way? Think about it. Not much to do with the Hasselblad, poor thing.

In the street department much confusion reigns because there hasn't been enough reading - sometimes - about its genesis. And that's where and why it often gets confused with reportage.

The vast majority of the early Parisian stuff was shot to order, as illustration for left-wing magazines and newspapers. As such, it wasn't street, but reportage, a story with a publication-led agenda. That's why we get so much "quaint" material shot in poor neighbourhoods full of raggedy kids, cheap cafťs and depicting layabouts and people doing hard, manual labour in markets. It's supposed to contrast the nobility of the poor workers and their honesty, on the one hand, with the decadent company owners (that employ them) on the other. (Even W. Eugene Smith's essay on Pittsburgh couldn't leave out references to the super-rich and their mansions, clubs and restaurants. Why do so many photographers have this hang-up?) Many of those new migrants, mainly Jewish, had to learn the language as they worked, making life even more complex as they plied the only trade they could. It's worth noting that few got rich out of photography when they were doing it for a living; yes, some went on to greater personal comfort and fame in much later life and in a very different social atmosphere where photography and art were presumed to have met.

Perhaps the most simple way to differentiate between street and documentary is this: documantary tries to tell a story about something over a spread of associated images, whereas street exists for no other purpose than to pick up on the quirks of mankind at large.

That's  the main reason why I feel that "street art" has to be seen under a different light: it isn't to do so much with people doing things that are odd or even peole looking a bit crazy themselves, it's about a sense of graphic design as found out there in the public domain, and mainly at street level, not up in the sky as with architectural street.

Anyway, real architectural photography is another animal altogether: it's a highly skilled specialist job of itself. I sometimes wonder how such photographers feel when confronted with what is loosely defined as architectural photography here and elsewhere within the amateur world. I suspect those folks are rather concerned with genre too!

All true and correct, Rob. This is exactly why street photography as style is merely a drop on a hot tin roof and there is so much more than street.

The big defect in street photography is the poor projection of the photographer and the even so poor projection of the viewer. Result is to often a photograph only strong in the mind. I remember a very true statement: a picture should be that good it even stands out on newspaper print, that means, stripped from all technical nitwittery.

What annoys me is the Ďyou should read about the mastersí mantra. Like a photographer who moved further only do so because he is unaware. This is utterly disrespectful or a sign of stupidity because not able to look further than the nose.

The strange thing is that the peoples shouting the hardest about definitions and rules seems not able to produce something that would stay strong, even printed on a toilet paper.

It quickly turns into an attitude dangerous close to arrogance.


I would be very happy that a sub forum street provoke such a response of photographers walking over the definitions or rules. That means itís not dead.



Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: RSL on August 20, 2018, 08:03:02 am
As I said, Rob, I didn't expect your explanation would have any effect on those who don't know and aren't about to take the trouble to learn, and Ivo is right there ready to pounce and prove the point.

It's obviously hopeless, and it's past time to drop "Street Showcase."
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: 32BT on August 20, 2018, 08:13:49 am
I would be very happy that a sub forum street provoke such a response of photographers walking over the definitions or rules. That means itís not dead.

Genre-bending is fine, as long as we can all agree that nothing we have seen in the streetsubsection so far falls in that category with the possible exception of your surrealistic kid-at-the-beach picture.

For me the definition of street genre could be:
a slice of life that teaches us something about life or a comment on it.

Any significance we attach to elements need to be more or less unversal by implication. Symbolism yes, depiction no.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Rob C on August 20, 2018, 08:17:12 am
Ivo,

Walking all over rules, as you write, isn't any guarantee of seeing better work.

Your own work as seen here is across a broad canvas, but your street stuff is still identifiable as street. I don't believe it's really a matter of rules at all; I think it's a matter of understanding where, in the grander scheme of things photographic, something fits.

We've touched on this thing before on LuLa and I honestly don't see how accepting that everything falls into some genre or the other - you just can't be original enough to avoid it - is a problem. It's principal benefit, when you accept that genre exists everywhere, is to use it so that it allows things to be posted into spaces that some might choose to look into, whereas others (spaces) do not press your buttons enough to make the detour worthwhile. I almost never look at any landscape work. It was just a fluke that I saw the great sun/landscape shot that has been arousing some people's doubts because it isn't straight - whatever anything straight means today. Perhaps if landscape, too, had a separate section for manipulated imagery it would make sense, and I, for one, might find an interest in it.

None of this is an attempt at elitism, at pretending expertise where it does not exist, and neither does it mean that people are not permitted to shoot in any way that they see fit; it's just a wish for some easy cataloging of the photographs - it happens after the event.

Rob
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: 32BT on August 20, 2018, 08:19:39 am
Back to the OP.

Roadside memorials seem to span geographies, continents, and religions. My first encounter was in my father's birth place, a village in Serbia, orthodox Christianity. But somehow I always connected it with a more primitive worldview, typical for what could be labeled as a provincial mentality. Never seen them in cities.

I've seen memorials in the city, but more fleeting: flowers at a lamppost, sometimes a drawing, sometimes a toy. They are probably not meant as durable reminders though.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Rob C on August 20, 2018, 08:24:26 am
I've seen memorials in the city, but more fleeting: flowers at a lamppost, sometimes a drawing, sometimes a toy. They are probably not meant as durable reminders though.

There used to be quite a few here in Mallorca some decades ago, usually flowers at crash sites. Maybe the better cars and more experienced drivers of today have reduced the toll - or folks are no longer that way inclined, what with the dropping away of religion.
Title: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 20, 2018, 08:31:51 am
As I said, Rob, I didn't expect your explanation would have any effect on those who don't know and aren't about to take the trouble to learn, and Ivo is right there ready to pounce and prove the point.

It's obviously hopeless, and it's past time to drop "Street Showcase."

Again this arrogans.

I had my lectures and did my readings and I continued at the point you fell asleep.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 20, 2018, 08:40:22 am


For me the definition of street genre could be:
a slice of life that teaches us something about life or a comment on it.



Ja, agree. But this leaves it to the viewers perception and then, practically all what was posted here is according you definition proposal. (I like)
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Ivophoto on August 20, 2018, 08:47:22 am
Ivo,

Walking all over rules, as you write, isn't any guarantee of seeing better work.

Your own work as seen here is across a broad canvas, but your street stuff is still identifiable as street. I don't believe it's really a matter of rules at all; I think it's a matter of understanding where, in the grander scheme of things photographic, something fits.

We've touched on this thing before on LuLa and I honestly don't see how accepting that everything falls into some genre or the other - you just can't be original enough to avoid it - is a problem. It's principal benefit, when you accept that genre exists everywhere, is to use it so that it allows things to be posted into spaces that some might choose to look into, whereas others (spaces) do not press your buttons enough to make the detour worthwhile. I almost never look at any landscape work. It was just a fluke that I saw the great sun/landscape shot that has been arousing some people's doubts because it isn't straight - whatever anything straight means today. Perhaps if landscape, too, had a separate section for manipulated imagery it would make sense, and I, for one, might find an interest in it.

None of this is an attempt at elitism, at pretending expertise where it does not exist, and neither does it mean that people are not permitted to shoot in any way that they see fit; it's just a wish for some easy cataloging of the photographs - it happens after the event.

Rob

I agree with most of your point of view, Rob. ( if not I agree fully) you donít exhibit the little finger to other minded Lulaneers.

Eric Berne would love LuLa.


Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 20, 2018, 10:02:16 am
Thanks to those that had kind words to say and those that offered suppport. Thanks also to those that engaged with the images.
Title: Re: Roadside memorials
Post by: Riaan van Wyk on August 20, 2018, 10:02:50 am
I have photos taken of myself by my father while I floated around on Richards bay on a little boat. Not a building there. A clean Pretty lagoon. I will post.

I drive a Toyota 76 Landcruiser myself. Will definately check out your link and plan a visit.

That would be great Martin.