Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: OmerV on July 16, 2018, 06:34:13 pm
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So the President of the Untided States favors the word of an autocratic despot over that of the his own intelligence agencies, which, by the way, have been staffed with Republicans. Well, at least the comedians are happy.
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Some may be laughing, but most are distressed.
The world's not laughing, Donald, it's crying
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40128046
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They were laughing even harder at Obama, the first president with no balls. He tells the world that using gas against civilians in Syria would be crossing his "red line." They do it anyway. He does nothing. When they did it while Trump was president, he blew the hell out of them twice. Putin invades Ukraine and Obama sends blankets, refused to send any military aid--he didn't want to make Putin mad. Trump has been sending anti-tank missiles. When Russian backed troops cut a supply line to American forces in Syria, Obama did nothing. When Russian mercenaries moved an armored force towards an American position this April, Trump OKayed the request for U.S. marine artillery and air force Apache helicopters to attack them. They blew the hell out of the Russians--killed over 200 and wounded at least 100 more. I don't like everything Trump says, but OTOH Obama was all talk and everyone knew he had no balls. Remember that it was during Obama's administration that we learned about Russian interference in elections. Obama personally asked Putin to "knock it off" (Obama quote.) Putin obviously had zero respect for Obama--nobody does. He's all talk and everyone knows it. No balls at all. Kim Jung Il began testing nuclear war heads and Obama told him to stop. "Rocket Man" responded by firing missiles over Japan. He did that after Trump was elected and Trump began talking about military retaliation. "Rocket Man" began sleeping in a bunker 200 feet below ground! Trump got tensions racheted down below where they were with Obama and there is at least peace talk. None of this would have been possible with Obama because everyone knows he has no balls, no one respects him.
Don't forget our other choice was Hillary. Everyone knows that for a multi-million dollar donation to the "Clinton Library Fund" she'll do whatever you want. No one respects her either.
Kent in SD
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So the President of the Untided States favors the word of an autocratic despot over that of the his own intelligence agencies...
Rather over his own deep state.
And not to let it go unnoticed, "autocratic despot" is just another fake news. Putin won numerous elections with a sizable majority. And before you tell me they were rigged, take into account that I was there, both in Russia (eight years) and in Serbia (which was electing Milosevic happily a dozen times), and tend to know what I am talking about. People of Russia, the majority, apart from a small number of urban elite, love, no - adore, Putin, like Serbs did with Milosevic.
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So the President of the Untided States favors the word of an autocratic despot over that of the his own intelligence agencies, which, by the way, have been staffed with Republicans.
More precisely, they are staffed by career professionals, and currently led by a variety of career professionals (e.g., Gina Haspel, Director of Central Intelligence), military officers (e.g., Paul Nakasone, director of the National Security Agency; Robert Ashley, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency), and at least one high-profile Republican Party politician (Dan Coats, Director of National Intelligence, who serves in a government-wide coordinating role rather than directing a particular agency).
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Rather over his own deep state.
Don't be silly.
And not to let it go unnoticed, "autocratic despot" is just another fake news. Putin won numerous elections with a sizable majority. And before you tell me they were rigged, take into account that I was there, both in Russia (eight years) and in Serbia (which was electing Milosevic happily a dozen times), and tend to know what I am talking about. People of Russia, the majority, apart from a small number of urban elite, love, no - adore, Putin, like Serbs did with Milosevic.
And why do you suppose that is?
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And why do you suppose that is?
And your hypothesis is?
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And your hypothesis is?
Lack of access to a wide range of quality information upon which to base a critically evaluated choice? An learned culture of respect for/fear of autocratic strongmen? I mean, we're 60 years out from the Civil Rights Act, and racial issues still impact the fabric of our country. You don't think that being a single generation out from literal dictatorships informs the psychological makeup of Russia and the Balkans? Have the Russian people EVER really been free to truly speak their minds without fear of government reprisal?
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Lack of access to a wide range of quality information upon which to base a critically evaluated choice? An learned culture of respect for/fear of autocratic strongmen? I mean, we're 60 years out from the Civil Rights Act, and racial issues still impact the fabric of our country. You dot think that being a single generation out of literal dictatorships informs the psychological makeup of Russia and the Balkans? Have the Russian people EVER really been free to truly speak their minds without fear of government reprisal?
So? Your solution is to let American ambassadors run both countries (like they run some others)?
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So the USA made new friends - Russia and NKorea... ( Israel even their best friend)
and the EU, China and the FBI are its worst enemies...
- How things can change ! in 18 months!
A country gets the leader its deserves.
Too bad we also have a problem now.
and its all Obama's fault!
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So? Your solution is to let American ambassadors run both countries (like they run some others)?
My solution to what?
I thought we were discussing the absurdity of the American president siding, publicly, with an autocratic leader with a history of antisocial international behavior against pretty much all of his own intelligence agencies, most of our elected representatives, and a substantial portion of his own handpicked advisors.
As a matter of policy, it's bizarre. As an indicator of his competence, it's alarming.
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And guess what? I am fully supporting that policy. The policy that goes against the FBI that displayed a strong, unacceptable, and unconstitutional political bias, which stated that "we can not ALLOW Trump to become president."? As of when is FBI's role to elect a president or prevent its election?
The deep state that chose to sabotage the President literally five minutes before meeting Putin with the indictment? Not days before, not days later, but five minutes before? You tell me that was not deliberate?
Trump went into the election with a promise to improve relations with Russia. Most reasonable people agree that having a better relationship is in the mutual interest and voted for him. He is keeping his promise, against the deep state efforts. People elected him to improve the relations and he is doing it.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-russia-indictments-why-now-1531778599
Wall Street Journal: "Why Now?" (bold mine)
... raises questions about the timing of the announcement and the work of the hackers themselves. The news came on the eve of the Trump-Putin summit. Why then?
The president was told of the indictments before he traveled. Yet the plain effect of the announcement was to raise further doubts about the wisdom of the meeting—and perhaps to shape its agenda. Neither is the business of the special counsel or anyone else at the Justice Department. The department has a longstanding policy, not directly applicable here but at least analogous, that candidates should not be charged close to an election, absent urgent need, lest the charges themselves affect the outcome. The general principle would seem to apply: Prosecutors are supposed to consider the impact of their actions on significant events outside the criminal-justice system, and to act with due diffidence.
From a law-enforcement standpoint, there was nothing urgent about these indictments. All 12 defendants are in Russia; none are likely ever to see the inside of a U.S. courtroom.
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And guess what? I am fully supporting that policy. The policy that goes against the FBI that displayed a strong, unacceptable, and unconstitutional political bias, which stated that "we can not ALLOW Trump to become president."? As of when is FBI's role to elect a president or prevent its election?
The deep state that chose to sabotage the President literally five minutes before meeting Putin with the indictment? Not days before, not days later, but five minutes before? You tell me that was not deliberate?
Trump went into the election with a promise to improve relations with Russia. Most reasonable people agree that having a better relationship is in the mutual interest and voted for him. He is keeping his promise, against the deep state efforts. People elected him to improve the relations and he is doing it.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-russia-indictments-why-now-1531778599
Wall Street Journal: "Why Now?" (bold mine)
I'll be back to chat about this as soon as I'm able to dig up your complaint about the FBI announcing the (ultimately baseless) reopening of the HRC emails thing right before the election, instead of announcing the concurrent investigation into the Trump campaign. It shouldn't take me long to find that, right?
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Huh. For some reason, I can't find it. I know it must be there, though, because you seem very passionate about the irregularity - nay - the *strong, unacceptable, unconstitutionality* of the FBI taking public action that would impact an important political event. I'll ping Chris - it could be that the search function is flaky today? Dunno.
Regardless, sure - most reasonable people think better relations with Russia would be great. Same with North Korea, China, etc. etc. I must confess, though, that if the optimal route to better relations is to capitulate and kowtow, I can't fathom why there's so much of a problem with Obama refusing to engage in Syria and Ukraine. Unless, you know, tribalism and party above country. But hey, it's a really hard day to be a conservative, an American, and a Trump supporter all in one. It must require an astounding amount of mental gymnastics. Makes me dizzy just thinking about it.
(All kidding aside, why not just admit that Trump really hosed it up today, and that siding with Putin against basically every American investigative body is utterly embarrassing and incompetent?)
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(All kidding aside, why not just admit that Trump really hosed it up today, and that siding with Putin against basically every American investigative body is utterly embarrassing and incompetent?)
And Obama wasn't abysmally incompetent in his response to Putin when Obama learned of the attempted interference? He decided to keep it quiet. He didn't have the balls to confront Putin and threaten any action. (Not that Putin would have taken him seriously.) And what about the incompetence of Hillary that began the whole mess in the first place? She decided to publicly support Putin's political opponent despite the strongest discouragement of every one of her advisers. This was Putin's motivation to interfere in Hillary's election--revenge.
Kent in SD
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I don;t think Trump agreed with our intelligence agencies publicly because he doesn't want to give Mueller's work any credibility. Many Americans don;t know the difference between the Russians hacking and the administration colluding.
I hope Trump told Putin in private that he's willing to move forward with bilateral relations. But if the Russians get involved in our election again in November, all bets are off. The American public won;t allow him to do it as he's been held off from doing it to date. So now it's up to Putin if he wants to reset the relationship. Stay out of our elections.
Having better relations with Russia is going to be required against China. A rich and powerful China will be our future adversary, not poor Russia. We need the nuclear armed Russians holding their border against China.
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I can't wait for a trade agreement with Russia. I look forward to all those great nesting doll sets at good prices.
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And Obama wasn't abysmally incompetent in his response to Putin when Obama learned of the attempted interference? He decided to keep it quiet. He didn't have the balls to confront Putin and threaten any action.
Well, no, he wasn't. Obama levied some economic sanctions, kicked out some spies, closed a Russian facility here in the States and tried to get a public condemnation which Paul Ryan apparently agreed to, but which McConnell refused to sign on to. Further, though it's derided as being "weak," he at least had the "balls" to tell Putin to his face to "knock it off." Which is practically a hydrogen bomb compared to Trump's simpering equivocation today. Look, no one is ever going to put Obama's actions in Syria or the Ukraine in the annals of great American leadership, but Trump is a G**D*** disaster with an unhealthy respect for autocrats and a dangerous disdain for classical liberal values.
And what about the incompetence of Hillary that began the whole mess in the first place? She decided to publicly support Putin's political opponent despite the strongest discouragement of every one of her advisers. This was Putin's motivation to interfere in Hillary's election--revenge.
Like I said - It's hard to keep finding excuses for Trump. I get it. But some of y'all are really *invested* for some odd reason. Besides, the question (to everyone except Trump) isn't whether Russia interfered or not, it's whether Trump and/or his people were aware of it and did nothing, or worse, participated.
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This was Putin's motivation to interfere in Hillary's election--revenge.
Crap. The bandwidth needed to transfer the files was greater than a hacker on the internet could manage. This points to a direct download to a usb or similar.
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While not particularly a fan of His Golden Greatness, the increasingly hysteria of his opponents is quite something to watch.
Only in some bizarre echo chamber could anyone believe the whole "Russia did it" meme.
Likewise the idea of a Russian threat.
Look at defence spending in 2017 ($US):
U.K. about $55.2 billion
Germany $45.4 billion
United States $685.9 billion ($886 billion budgeted for 2019)
Russian budget for 2018: $42.3 billion, an effective decline.
Come on, show me who should see who as a threat.
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Crap. The bandwidth needed to transfer the files was greater than a hacker on the internet could manage. This points to a direct download to a usb or similar.
That's not correct.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170814/11490537992/stories-claiming-dnc-hack-was-inside-job-rely-heavily-stupid-conversion-error-no-forensic-expert-would-make.shtml
For reference, here's the original article that started the misconception:
https://www.thenation.com/article/a-new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-years-dnc-hack/
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Jim, Could the DNC servers slow down the transfer even if the internet is faster?
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To cut through the rhetoric for a moment,
it's a funny old world where someone who is attempting to make the planet more peaceable is villified.
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Jim, Could the DNC servers slow down the transfer even if the internet is faster?
Sure. The transfer rate would top out at the maximum speed the slowest point of connection. (Edit - but it wouldn't be the server itself)
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Sure. The transfer rate would top out at the maximum speed the slowest point of connection.
Do we have any info on the servers?
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Me? I'm still trying to figure out why my photos on the camera's memory card won't transfer to Lightroom in my desktop about half the time.
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To cut through the rhetoric for a moment,
it's a funny old world where someone who is attempting to make the planet more peaceable is villified.
To be clear, I have zero problem with making the world a more peaceful place.
For the record, I also have zero problem with trying to create better relations with Russia, North Korea, China or whomever. I'm generally favor of dialogue, no matter who it might be with, and I'll admit without reservation that being more open to the kind of high-level meetings is an area in which I give Trump credit. I just don't think he's competent enough to take advantage of these opportunities that he's creating, and that's unfortunate. He also has an unfortunate tendency to reward autocrats and insult egalitarian democracies. Except Norway - he seems to love Norway. Go figure?
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Do we have any info on the servers?
Not that I know of, but the transfer rates in question would be connection limited, not processor limited. What we would need to know would be the transfer rates of the DNC's Internet connection, for example, and as the TechCrunch article states, a business connection at that time would have absolutely been capable of reaching those speeds.
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Me? I'm still trying to figure out why my photos on the camera's memory card won't transfer to Lightroom in my desktop about half the time.
;D
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To be clear, I have zero problem with making the world a more peaceful place.
For the record, I also have zero problem with trying to create better relations with Russia, North Korea, China or whomever. I'm generally favor of dialogue, no matter who it might be with, and I'll admit without reservation that being more open to the kind of high-level meetings is an area in which I give Trump credit. I just don't think he's competent enough to take advantage of these opportunities that he's creating, and that's unfortunate. He also has an unfortunate tendency to reward autocrats and insult egalitarian democracies. Except Norway - he seems to love Norway. Go figure?
He must like Norwegian chicks. :)
Regarding taking advantage of the opportunities he's creating, he's at least creating those opportunities. Past administrations failed at that. Now let's give him a chance for peace. He needs time and support. With the Republican establishment as well as the Democrats opposed to him and wanting to bomb Russia and North Korea, he's doing it all on his own.
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While not particularly a fan of His Golden Greatness, the increasingly hysteria of his opponents is quite something to watch.
Only in some bizarre echo chamber could anyone believe the whole "Russia did it" meme.
Likewise the idea of a Russian threat.
Look at defence spending in 2017 ($US):
U.K. about $55.2 billion
Germany $45.4 billion
United States $685.9 billion ($886 billion budgeted for 2019)
Russian budget for 2018: $42.3 billion, an effective decline.
Come on, show me who should see who as a threat.
Russia is actually quite weak. I have a niece who lived there as a Christian missionary but has since moved to Ukraine. She said the alcoholism there is only surpassed by the rate on our Indian reservations. From first hand experience, I have to say that is something! Life expectancy there is growing shorter because of it.
"Perhaps the only genuine crisis aspect of current Russian demographic trends appears in increased rates of mortality, which have been especially dramatic among working-age men. In 1992, there was a sharp increase in deaths from nonnatural causes. By 1994, mortality rates for males between ages 15 and 64 were about twice as high as they had been in 1986 (Figure 4). Rising alcoholism and related conditions have figured prominently in this trend."
There is also a demographic crisis--more Russians are dying than are being born:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP162/index2.html
It appears that while Putin is trying to look tough, the reality is the country is imploding.
Kent in SD
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Russia is actually quite weak. I have a niece who lived there as a Christian missionary but has since moved to Ukraine. She said the alcoholism there is only surpassed by the rate on our Indian reservations. From first hand experience, I have to say that is something! Life expectancy there is growing shorter because of it.
"Perhaps the only genuine crisis aspect of current Russian demographic trends appears in increased rates of mortality, which have been especially dramatic among working-age men. In 1992, there was a sharp increase in deaths from nonnatural causes. By 1994, mortality rates for males between ages 15 and 64 were about twice as high as they had been in 1986 (Figure 4). Rising alcoholism and related conditions have figured prominently in this trend."
There is also a demographic crisis--more Russians are dying than are being born:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP162/index2.html
It appears that while Putin is trying to look tough, the reality is the country is imploding.
Kent in SD
That's actually not good for the world. After all they have the largest stockpile of nukes. A better more stable Russia would be good for everyone including Russia. On the other hand, Putin seems pretty sober and calculating. I don't expect him to push too hard. I remember his boss before he became boss, Boris Yeltsin. The guy couldn't draw a sober breathe the whole time he lead Russia.
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I can't wait for a trade agreement with Russia. I look forward to all those great nesting doll sets at good prices.
I already got mine! It's a really cool set, too. :) Prices have gone up since then.
Kent in SD
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To be clear, I have zero problem with making the world a more peaceful place.
For the record, I also have zero problem with trying to create better relations with Russia, North Korea, China or whomever. I'm generally favor of dialogue, no matter who it might be with, and I'll admit without reservation that being more open to the kind of high-level meetings is an area in which I give Trump credit. I just don't think he's competent enough to take advantage of these opportunities that he's creating, and that's unfortunate.
Yes, how it will go is an unknown. I'm hoping that even if negotiations don't progress that far, he will at least disrupt the sort of dualistic thinking we have at present so that a future generation will find it easier.
I haven't forgotten the terror my parents' generation felt during the cold war. That has probably informed my disgust for politicians who beat the war drum for personal gain. Every country has them.
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Some of this is too funny for words. The FBI and CIA and NATO countries are enemies now, and Putin is your friend?
The "Deep State" is attacking the country? How do you know it's not the Masons? Or maybe the Catholics?
There's even some blame-Obama stuff and hate Hilary written above. Change the record, guys. Trump has been in office nearly 2 years now.
The previous administration obtained de-nuking of Iran and Russia, WITH on-site inspections, and Trump threw the Iran deal out for no discernible good reason. Now Trump goes to N. Korea and Russia, babbles nonsense in public, and obtains NOTHING in return, except for a few self-congratulatory tweets.
The impetus for electing Trump, which was partly the throwing under the bus of the American middle class by a generation of politicians who didn't care, was valid enough. (The social conservative and racist side of his popularity are repulsive, but hey, everyone has to buy their votes somewhere, I guess, since that's the system we have now.) Trump was supposed to clean out the swamp, but instead he's distracting everyone with a near phoney Mexican border war and a completely phoney trade war. The USA is going through about 8 years of continuous economic growth, but somehow you have been conned into thinking that the other countries on earth are conspiring to destroy your economy. Get a grip.
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Trump looked like a beaten dog when he appeared at the press conference with Putin. I wonder what the Russians have on him. Maybe time will tell. The quicker this nightmare is over, the better.
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Trump looked like a beaten dog when he appeared at the press conference with Putin. I wonder what the Russians have on him. Maybe time will tell. The quicker this nightmare is over, the better.
For millions of Syrian, Kurdish, Iraqi, and Ukrainian civilians, the nightmare was Obama.
Kent in SD
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For millions of Syrian, Kurdish, Iraqi, and Ukrainian civilians, the nightmare was Obama.
Kent in SD
One can say the same thing about other religious/ethnic groups and a number of other presidents. FDR & European Jews, Eisenhower and Hungary in 1956, LBJ and Nixon in Southeast Asia, Carter and Iran, Reagan in Lebanon, etc. Placing the blame on Obama for the Kurdish and Iraqis is rather foolish since Bush II got us into Iran without any exit strategy other than "mission accomplished."
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Some of this is too funny for words. The FBI and CIA and NATO countries are enemies now, and Putin is your friend?
The "Deep State" is attacking the country? How do you know it's not the Masons? Or maybe the Catholics?
There's even some blame-Obama stuff and hate Hilary written above. Change the record, guys. Trump has been in office nearly 2 years now.
The previous administration obtained de-nuking of Iran and Russia, WITH on-site inspections, and Trump threw the Iran deal out for no discernible good reason. Now Trump goes to N. Korea and Russia, babbles nonsense in public, and obtains NOTHING in return, except for a few self-congratulatory tweets.
The impetus for electing Trump, which was partly the throwing under the bus of the American middle class by a generation of politicians who didn't care, was valid enough. (The social conservative and racist side of his popularity are repulsive, but hey, everyone has to buy their votes somewhere, I guess, since that's the system we have now.) Trump was supposed to clean out the swamp, but instead he's distracting everyone with a near phoney Mexican border war and a completely phoney trade war. The USA is going through about 8 years of continuous economic growth, but somehow you have been conned into thinking that the other countries on earth are conspiring to destroy your economy. Get a grip.
Whenever a foreigner tells America we're not doing it right, I figure we are. The phony caring is, well, phony. Foreigners just want America to keep spending and protecting them at our expense. Your Canada is paying 1.23% of your GDP for your military. As a member of NATO, you should be spending 2%. When you start spending 2%, then you can tell us we're not doing it right.
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Russia is actually quite weak. I have a niece who lived there as a Christian missionary but has since moved to Ukraine. She said the alcoholism there is only surpassed by the rate on our Indian reservations. From first hand experience, I have to say that is something! Life expectancy there is growing shorter because of it.
"Perhaps the only genuine crisis aspect of current Russian demographic trends appears in increased rates of mortality, which have been especially dramatic among working-age men. In 1992, there was a sharp increase in deaths from nonnatural causes. By 1994, mortality rates for males between ages 15 and 64 were about twice as high as they had been in 1986 (Figure 4). Rising alcoholism and related conditions have figured prominently in this trend."
There is also a demographic crisis--more Russians are dying than are being born:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP162/index2.html
None of this is new as my friend Murray Feshbach showed in his research of Russian demographic data several decades ago.
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One can say the same thing about other religious/ethnic groups and a number of other presidents. FDR & European Jews, Eisenhower and Hungary in 1956, LBJ and Nixon in Southeast Asia, Carter and Iran, Reagan in Lebanon, etc. Placing the blame on Obama for the Kurdish and Iraqis is rather foolish since Bush II got us into Iran without any exit strategy other than "mission accomplished."
Obama pulled American troops out of Iraq in 2011. He drew a "red line" in Syria and then failed to act on it. That caused a vacuum that ISIS filled. ISIS caused all the subsequent problems in Iraq and partially in Syria and help open the middle east to Iranian influence which brought in the Russians as well. That caused all the refugees to Europe. That happened on Obama's watch. That was his decision. I know that he blamed Bush for 8 years. But that's not how the world works. When you're CEO, you have to take responsibility and act once you take over. If he didn't want to be burdened by previous president's decisions, he should not have run for office. Responsibility comes with authority. It's time you stop giving Obama a pass. He failed on the international scene.
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Whenever a foreigner tells America we're not doing it right, I figure we are. The phony caring is, well, phony. Foreigners just want America to keep spending and protecting them at our expense. Your Canada is paying 1.23% of your GDP for your military. As a member of NATO, you should be spending 2%. When you start spending 2%, then you can tell us we're not doing it right.
It's not a zero-sum game, Alan, and as for "caring," I can truthfully say that I place no less value on Robert's well-being than I do on yours, despite the fact that he is Canadian and you, like me, are American. The goal we should all be striving for is maximum benefit for maximum people, and honestly, if Canada spends 1.5, 1.7, 2.2 or 5% of their GDP on defense, as a practical matter it's sort of irrelevant, except in terms of tokenism. Do we bear an "unfair" burden for keeping the world on an even keel? I guess maybe we do, but the payback on that investment has been huge, and it seem to me its money well spent.
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It's not a zero-sum game, Alan, and as for "caring," I can truthfully say that I place no less value on Robert's well-being than I do on yours, despite the fact that he is Canadian and you, like me, are American. The goal we should all be striving for is maximum benefit for maximum people, and honestly, if Canada spends 1.5, 1.7, 2.2 or 5% of their GDP on defense, as a practical matter it's sort of irrelevant, except in terms of tokenism. Do we bear an "unfair" burden for keeping the world on an even keel? I guess maybe we do, but the payback on that investment has been huge, and it seem to me its money well spent.
America use to be the world's largest creditor nation. Today, it's the world's largest debtor nation. This year, our trade deficit will be around $800 billion. The US deficit will be around $1 trillion dollars. That's around $3000 for every man, women and child in our country. That means, me and my wife who are retired Americans are another $6,000 in debt. Probably twice that amount since half the country won't ever pay taxes. Social Security and Medicare may be cut. The country is going broke. We can;t afford it anymore. Other nations like Germany, Canada, have become very rich, a lot due to American largesse. They can afford to pull their weight more. As Trump said, "we can't be schmucks anymore."
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America use to be the world's largest creditor nation. Today, it's the world's largest debtor nation. This year, our trade deficit will be around $800 billion. The US deficit will be around $1 trillion dollars. That's around $3000 for every man, women and child in our country. That means, me and my wife who are retired Americans are another $6,000 in debt. Probably twice that amount since half the country won't ever pay taxes. Social Security and Medicare may be cut. The country is going broke. We can;t afford it anymore. Other nations like Germany, Canada, have become very rich, a lot due to American largesse. They can afford to pull their weight more. As Trump said, "we can't be schmucks anymore."
If you are going bust, I think you should look at what you manufacture, how much you pay yourselves for making the stuff, and how willing you are to innovate. You should perhaps cast an eye on how your tax system works and how well or otherwise it collects from your nation's top earners, how much from its internationals who prefer paying "taxes" to Ireland and on and on. There are billions involved there.
Considering you are the leading manufacturers for all the hardware that gets used by NATO and friendly countries, apart from the stuff you flog worldwide, the vast sums spent on defence would appear to trickle right back home, and not disappoint the NRA, either! Look at more sides of the situation than one.
Try thinking beyond your Atlantic/Pacific coasts, or that wall-to-maybe-be down south. You've already pissed off what's up north.
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If you are going bust, I think you should look at what you manufacture, how much you pay yourselves for making the stuff, and how willing you are to innovate. You should perhaps cast an eye on how your tax system works and how well or otherwise it collects from your nation's top earners, how much from its internationals who prefer paying "taxes" to Ireland and on and on. There are billions involved there.
Considering you are the leading manufacturers for all the hardware that gets used by NATO and friendly countries, apart from the stuff you flog worldwide, the vast sums spent on defence would appear to trickle right back home, and not disappoint the NRA, either! Look at more sides of the situation than one.
Try thinking beyond your Atlantic/Pacific coasts, or that wall-to-maybe-be down south. You've already pissed off what's up north.
You're changing the subject. The issue is tariffs. Yours are higher than ours. That's not fair. Reduce your tariffs to our level and we have a deal.
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From a Facebook post today:
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One can say the same thing about other religious/ethnic groups and a number of other presidents. FDR & European Jews, Eisenhower and Hungary in 1956, LBJ and Nixon in Southeast Asia, Carter and Iran, Reagan in Lebanon, etc. Placing the blame on Obama for the Kurdish and Iraqis is rather foolish since Bush II got us into Iran without any exit strategy other than "mission accomplished."
Not meaning to confrontational here, but how often do countries actually go to war with well thought out exit strategies?
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America use to be the world's largest creditor nation. Today, it's the world's largest debtor nation. This year, our trade deficit will be around $800 billion. The US deficit will be around $1 trillion dollars. That's around $3000 for every man, women and child in our country. That means, me and my wife who are retired Americans are another $6,000 in debt. Probably twice that amount since half the country won't ever pay taxes. Social Security and Medicare may be cut. The country is going broke. We can;t afford it anymore. Other nations like Germany, Canada, have become very rich, a lot due to American largesse. They can afford to pull their weight more. As Trump said, "we can't be schmucks anymore."
IIRC you said you and your wife both drive Acuras. Part of America's trade deficit is the fondness for foreign produced goods. America has moved away from manufacturing and into financial services and the like. Buy America is a great slogan but where are the products?
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Obama pulled American troops out of Iraq in 2011. He drew a "red line" in Syria and then failed to act on it. That caused a vacuum that ISIS filled. ISIS caused all the subsequent problems in Iraq and partially in Syria and help open the middle east to Iranian influence which brought in the Russians as well. That caused all the refugees to Europe. That happened on Obama's watch. That was his decision. I know that he blamed Bush for 8 years. But that's not how the world works. When you're CEO, you have to take responsibility and act once you take over. If he didn't want to be burdened by previous president's decisions, he should not have run for office. Responsibility comes with authority. It's time you stop giving Obama a pass. He failed on the international scene.
Where did I ever give Obama a pass on his conduct of foreign affairs? My only point in the post was that almost every president had failures of one kind or another. To focus only on Obama is to ignore the history that came before. Your statement on the red line in Syria and ISIS is erroneous. ISIS arose from the Iraq ware that Bush 2 waged. It originated as a Sunni fight against the installed Shia leadership in Iraq. It only spread to Syria in 2010.
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IIRC you said you and your wife both drive Acuras. Part of America's trade deficit is the fondness for foreign produced goods. America has moved away from manufacturing and into financial services and the like. Buy America is a great slogan but where are the products?
I never said we shouldn't trade. I bought my first Japanese product 53 years ago in 1965 when I was in Japan in the USAF. It was a Nikon F Photomic T with 50mm and 135mm lenses. What a 35mm camera that was. But the issue now is tariffs. Why should the Japanese, the EU, China and others charge higher tariffs. It's not fair to us.
Regarding products we make, it's not down. I thought that too until I checked. Actually, the percentage of manufacturing against the GDP, around 18%, has been constant for decades. What's down is the number of Americans who are needed to produce manufactured products. It's like what happened to farming. We produce huge amount of farm products. But due to automation, we don;t need as many farmers and farm hands. Look how cars are built. Automation has reduce the amount of car workers.
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Where did I ever give Obama a pass on his conduct of foreign affairs? My only point in the post was that almost every president had failures of one kind or another. To focus only on Obama is to ignore the history that came before. Your statement on the red line in Syria and ISIS is erroneous. ISIS arose from the Iraq ware that Bush 2 waged. It originated as a Sunni fight against the installed Shia leadership in Iraq. It only spread to Syria in 2010.
My statement included the fact that Obama pulled American troops out too early in 2011. That created a vacuum that ISIS filled. You can't blame Bush for what happened before. That would be like Bush blaming the British for dividing up the Middle East the way they did after WWI by including Shia and Sunni in the same country.
Here's an article from a book that Leon Panetta wrote blaming Obama for pulling out of Iraq in 2011 and allowing ISIS to form. Panetta was Obama's Secretary of Defense.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/leon-panetta-criticizes-obama-for-iraq-withdrawal/
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I never said we shouldn't trade. I bought my first Japanese product 53 years ago in 1965 when I was in Japan in the USAF. It was a Nikon F Photomic T with 50mm and 135mm lenses. What a 35mm camera that was. But the issue now is tariffs. Why should the Japanese, the EU, China and others charge higher tariffs. It's not fair to us.
Regarding products we make, it's not down. I thought that too until I checked. Actually, the percentage of manufacturing against the GDP, around 18%, has been constant for decades. What's down is the number of Americans who are needed to produce manufactured products. It's like what happened to farming. We produce huge amount of farm products. But due to automation, we don;t need as many farmers and farm hands. Look how cars are built. Automation has reduce the amount of car workers.
Right on, Alan. And I bought my Canon 7 in Vietnam in 1965. A beautiful Leica knockoff. I loved that camera.
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My statement included the fact that Obama pulled American troops out too early in 2011...
A clear case of premature evacuation ;)
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The world always laughs at the United States, right up to the point where, again and again we have to pull the world's nuts out of the fire. But after all, we're rubes. Look at Trump. What a rube. There's no explaining why the U.S. economy is back on track and people are back at work. How could that possibly be a result of a rube like Trump? Cause and effect is hard for left-wingers to understand. Always has been.
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Regarding products we make, it's not down. I thought that too until I checked. Actually, the percentage of manufacturing against the GDP, around 18%, has been constant for decades. What's down is the number of Americans who are needed to produce manufactured products. It's like what happened to farming. We produce huge amount of farm products. But due to automation, we don;t need as many farmers and farm hands. Look how cars are built. Automation has reduce the amount of car workers.
Ironically, sometimes too much automation can reduce the productivity. Even in a high-tech industry.
“Excessive automation at Tesla was a mistake. To be precise, my mistake,” the CEO wrote in a tweet Friday, hours after CBS aired an interview in which he acknowledged putting too many robots in Tesla’s lone auto factory. “Humans are underrated.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-13/musk-tips-his-tesla-cap-to-humans-after-robots-undercut-model-3
https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/28/tesla-is-overusing-automation-in-model-3-final-assembly-analysts-say/
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Right on, Alan. And I bought my Canon 7 in Vietnam in 1965. A beautiful Leica knockoff. I loved that camera.
Russ, How did you buy a camera in Vietnam in 1965? Were you a spy? :)
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Russ, How did you buy a camera in Vietnam in 1965? Were you a spy? :)
Alan, in 1965 I was commander of this beautiful radar site -- Paddy Control -- in the delta. I bought the camera in the army PX.
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https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article215016100.html
"Rand Paul and Donald Trump bond over Trump’s performance with Putin"
... Paul called the criticism directed at Trump misguided and said it was a “mistake” for critics to turn the meeting into a “partisan escapade.”
“This is an extraordinary thing about President Trump that should be lauded and not belittled,” Paul said on CBS This Morning, noting that the Putin summit and Trump’s meeting last month with North Korea’s leader shows “he is willing to meet with adversaries to try to prevent us from having World War III.”
Paul also defended Trump’s criticism of the investigation into Russian election meddling, arguing that Trump was “sensitive” after 18 months of what he called an “onslaught of partisan investigations.”
Paul was an enthusiastic supporter of Trump’s decision to meet with Putin in the first place, writing earlier this week in Politico that “dialogue is especially important when hundreds of millions of lives are at stake, as is the case in relations between the United States and nuclear-armed Russia.”
Paul also said he plans to travel to Russia “in an attempt to discuss common ground with their leaders and help prevent further, unnecessary escalation of tensions.” He said he planned to discuss trade, cultural exchanges “and how to better work for peace and prosperity in the world” and would consult with Trump before his visit.
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There's no explaining why the U.S. economy is back on track and people are back at work. How could that possibly be a result of a rube like Trump? Cause and effect is hard for left-wingers to understand. Always has been.
::)
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The world always laughs at the United States, right up to the point where, again and again we have to pull the world's nuts out of the fire. But after all, we're rubes. Look at Trump. What a rube. There's no explaining why the U.S. economy is back on track and people are back at work. How could that possibly be a result of a rube like Trump? Cause and effect is hard for left-wingers to understand. Always has been.
The Republicans and Trump were handed a good economy which was reconstructed by the previous administration (Obama) after it was handed a recession by the W. Bush administration.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/article215016100.html
"Rand Paul and Donald Trump bond over Trump’s performance with Putin"
You left out what Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and other Republicans are saying.
From John McCain: No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant.
From Jeff Flake: I never thought I would see the day when our American President would stand on the stage with the Russian President and place blame on the United States for Russian aggression. This is shameful.
The United States has long had economic ties with China, Vietnam, and other non-democratic states, including Russia. Rand Paul is not saying anything new. What he is doing is being an opportunistic apologist for a bumbling Trump.
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... From John McCain...
Would that be the same "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" McCain?
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You left out what Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and other Republicans are saying.
From John McCain: No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant.
From Jeff Flake: I never thought I would see the day when our American President would stand on the stage with the Russian President and place blame on the United States for Russian aggression. This is shameful.
I left out the part of your post that would most embarrass you, Omer. But the idea that McCain and Flake are anything other than "never Trump" RINOs is ridiculous. Who cares what they say?
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Would that be the same "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" McCain?
...and?
Better bomb Iran than N. Korea. Or is it now Germany, France, Canada and Mexico? Sigh, so many choices. First world problems. Ah well.
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I left out the part of your post that would most embarrass you, Omer. But the idea that McCain and Flake are anything other than "never Trump" RINOs is ridiculous. Who cares what they say?
Do Republicans even exists? Isn't it the Dear Leader Trump Party now?
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...and?...
And we are supposed to pay attention what a war hawk says about attempts to avoid wars?
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Do Republicans even exists? Isn't it the Dear Leader Trump Party now?
If McCain actually had been a Republican he'd have been president. As it was, his run pretending to be a Republican was ridiculous.
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I always thought that it was the choice of his running mate.
“John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/opinion/08kristol.html
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Regarding products we make, it's not down. I thought that too until I checked. Actually, the percentage of manufacturing against the GDP, around 18%, has been constant for decades. What's down is the number of Americans who are needed to produce manufactured products. It's like what happened to farming. We produce huge amount of farm products. But due to automation, we don;t need as many farmers and farm hands. Look how cars are built. Automation has reduce the amount of car workers.
This is why the promise of jobs from Trump is just a con. The manufacturing base of lots of jobs is never coming back. Tariffs or the lack thereof are really not going to change that. Service economies don't care about tariffs.
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I always thought that it was the choice of his running mate.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/opinion/08kristol.html
Hi Les. Apparently you're embarrassed to tell us your age, but it's pretty clear you weren't around when Harry Truman got on the ballot as VP. He really was nothing much more than a small-time ward heeler at the time. FDR never even told him about the A Bomb. When he suddenly found himself President of the U.S. it turned out he had what it took. He used the bomb when it was time to use the bomb, even though it was obvious there was going to be a huge reaction. I was there. I missed WW II by a hair but immediately got myself into Korea. I disagreed with Harry on a whole lot of things, but he was a strong president; a huge surprise to everyone. I'm not sure what you had in mind with Bill Kristol's article, but considering his current position it's hard to believe the guy has a clue what's going on.
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This is why the promise of jobs from Trump is just a con. The manufacturing base of lots of jobs is never coming back. Tariffs or the lack thereof are really not going to change that. Service economies don't care about tariffs.
You got it wrong again. You conflated two points that aren't related. The fact that there are less people manufacturing does not mean that higher tariffs don't effect our exports. They still do. The fact is 18% of economy is still manufacturing as it's been for decades. It's just that there's less people needed to produce those products than there were before. So anything we can do to have other nations lower their tariffs will help our manufacturing base and 18% of our economy.
Regarding the loss of jobs and Trump promises, it is true that many former jobs will not come back. But Trump said he would do what he could do to help those workers whose industries have been replaced. Hillary insulted them calling them the "deplorables". She lost the election because of her snooty, liberal, condescending contempt for former working-class Democrats who were trying to make ends meet. People want to have hope. Hillary offered none of that.
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You got it wrong again. You conflated two points that aren't related. The fact that there are less people manufacturing does not mean that higher tariffs don't effect our exports. They still do. The fact is 18% of economy is still manufacturing as it's been for decades. It's just that there's less people needed to produce those products than there were before. So anything we can do to have other nations lower their tariffs will help our manufacturing base and 18% of our economy.
Regarding the loss of jobs and Trump promises, it is true that many former jobs will not come back. But Trump said he would do what he could do to help those workers whose industries have been replaced. Hillary insulted them calling them the "deplorables". She lost the election because of her snooty, liberal, condescending contempt for former working-class Democrats who were trying to make ends meet. People want to have hope. Hillary offered none of that.
I ignore all the anti-Clinton screeds because she was not my candidate of choice and I knew that she would be a disaster from the time they tried to coronate her as Queen Hilary (I have an equally intense dislike of Senator Sanders).
I have yet to see any effort the Trump administration has done to help out those whose jobs have been displaced whether they are/were in manufacturing or mineral extraction (which includes his beautiful American coal industry). I would like to see him come up with some proposals that are worthy of consideration. Remember tariffs are just a not so hidden tax on consumers and we are already seeing increases in prices because of this. How this will play out in Peoria and other Republican strongholds will await a decision of the electorate in November. We are already hearing from farmers and manufacturers that things are not going well. Trade wars never end well.
Regarding the comment I made about protecting our domestic sugar industry, here is an ANALYSIS (http://www.aei.org/publication/protectionist-sugar-policy-cost-americans-3-billion-in-2012/) from American Enterprise Institute (yes, I do read a lot of different think tank reports from both the left and right sides of the political spectrum. "Over the last 10 years the sugar program has eliminated more than 14,000 confectionery jobs and more than 75,000 food manufacturing jobs."
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If McCain actually had been a Republican he'd have been president.
I always thought that it was the choice of his running mate.
Sigh. I never thought I would feel nostalgic for the days when I worried that an ignoramus might be a heartbeat away from the presidency.
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I ignore all the anti-Clinton screeds because she was not my candidate of choice and I knew that she would be a disaster from the time they tried to coronate her as Queen Hilary (I have an equally intense dislike of Senator Sanders).
I have yet to see any effort the Trump administration has done to help out those whose jobs have been displaced whether they are/were in manufacturing or mineral extraction (which includes his beautiful American coal industry). I would like to see him come up with some proposals that are worthy of consideration. Remember tariffs are just a not so hidden tax on consumers and we are already seeing increases in prices because of this. How this will play out in Peoria and other Republican strongholds will await a decision of the electorate in November. We are already hearing from farmers and manufacturers that things are not going well. Trade wars never end well.
Regarding the comment I made about protecting our domestic sugar industry, here is an ANALYSIS (http://www.aei.org/publication/protectionist-sugar-policy-cost-americans-3-billion-in-2012/) from American Enterprise Institute (yes, I do read a lot of different think tank reports from both the left and right sides of the political spectrum. "Over the last 10 years the sugar program has eliminated more than 14,000 confectionery jobs and more than 75,000 food manufacturing jobs."
No one's arguing for long-term tariffs. Trump understands that tariffs raise costs to consumers and a trade war benefits no one. However, lowering tariffs in other countries would provide more jobs to Americans as well as more wealth for the US.
So, the point of the tariffs is to get others to reduce theirs so we can export more.
Which reminds me of the joke that I posted on another thread. It applies here too"
It seems a farmer was complaining to a friend about the trouble he was having in getting his stubborn mule to move. After listening to the farmer's complaint, the friend said he knew just what to do.
"Get a two-by-four board and whack the mule across the head with all your might," advised the friend. The farmer was taken aback. "But how will that get him to move?" asked the farmer. "Well, you see," the friend said, "first you've got to get his attention!"
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Sigh. I never thought I would feel nostalgic for the days when I worried that an ignoramus might be a heartbeat away from the presidency.
;D
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Well, I don’t envy the conservative side of the LuLa forum luminaries. Donald has stepped back his waffling support for the American “Deep State” and now full heartedly supports it. Okay, he’ll probably change his mind tomorrow, but we’ll take it a day at a time, no?
Supporting a “wreck of a man”(according to George Will,) can’t be easy. Still, it seems the pressure of political expediency by folks like McConnell has scored some pragmatic points as there is no doubt the Democrats were salivating over how best to use Donald’s remarkable blunder at Helsinki.
Definitely, it’s one day a time with this bro’.
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I wonder if one of Sacha Baron Cohen's alter egos could get an interview with Trump. Amazing to me how many people who ought to know better have fallen into his snare and embarrassed themselves on his "Who Is America" program. His 'Kinder-Guardian' loving Israeli counter-terrorist office was top rate.
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You're changing the subject. The issue is tariffs. Yours are higher than ours. That's not fair. Reduce your tariffs to our level and we have a deal.
There is no change of subject; it is all absolutely connected at the hip. It's one man's way of riding roughshod over anything and anybody that doesn't fit his electoral stance, however much he does or does not himself believe in the sense of what he says. Unilaterally tearing up mutually accepted terms and contracts is not the way you live and behave in a civilized society: you wait until expiry of said contracts and then renegotiate or, should you prefer, walk away then.
Also, as others have pointed out, there can be no renewal of many rust-belt (and other) jobs; time, requirements and methods have moved on and going backwards is no longer an option. The best you can do to preserve the status quo is to say enough! innovate no further; either accept that we keep jobs going for the less intellectual, or we agree to put them on permanent life-support via state pensions and remove their dream of ever finding grunt employment again. And hey, it's not reserved to the States! All modern countries face the same problem of future generations without the ability, capacity to gain the skills they will need to keep up in the race to have work. I think that I, too, would have been almost unemployable were I a youth today: my skills were not in the sciences and even less in mathematics. Worse, I never felt the least interest in those fields, which says all that needs saying about personal wiring and ability to get to the top in said applications which are, today, ever more the basis of employment and success.
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If you're talking about tariffs without talking about subsidies and any other assistance or restrictions then you're talking nonsense. Protection exists in many format including grants, tax breaks, promotion, tariffs, subsidies, quotas, foreign investment restrictions, restrictions of certain technologies, administrative barriers, anti-dumping legislation, exchange rate control or limitations or restrictions, certain patent situations, political campaigns, preferential government spending, and so on. That's just off the top of my head.
Comparing just one of those components, and not all of them, is nonsense.
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There is no change of subject; it is all absolutely connected at the hip. It's one man's way of riding roughshod over anything and anybody that doesn't fit his electoral stance, however much he does or does not himself believe in the sense of what he says. Unilaterally tearing up mutually accepted terms and contracts is not the way you live and behave in a civilized society: you wait until expiry of said contracts and then renegotiate or, should you prefer, walk away then....
Rob, I'm sorry that we now have a hard-nosed business man as president who knows how to play the game as well as the Europeans do. Our last president rolled over because he just wanted to be liked by the world. Trump puts America's interest first as an American president should. I wouldn't expect anything less from your leaders. They certainly know how to do that so please don't make believe that you don't put your country first as well. In any negotiation, each side tries to bargain the best deal for their side.
In any case, there's no agreement as far as I know that allows the EU to charge 10% tariffs on American cars sent there while we charge only 2.5% on European cars sent here. So let me suggest the following. EU and American trade negotiators should sit down and try to get rid of all tariffs on both sides of the Atlantic so we can have free and fair trade across the board. In the meanwhile, we will match your higher tariffs, tariff for tariff.
What do you say?
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If McCain actually had been a Republican he'd have been president.
Ah, the old "No True Republican" tactic. Nicely done.
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A bit of a non-sequitor, but I wanted drop back into this thread and apologize publicly to Slobodan for my over-the-top snark earlier in the thread. He and I have hugely disparate opinions here, but my comments strayed way too far into disdainful dismissal, and I'm embarrassed about that, and letting my own ego get too involved.
So, I'm sorry, Slobodan.
(I would have sent this via PM directly but I thought it important to let the rest of the regulars here know that I regret my attitude, in my ongoing effort to be the change in discourse that I'd like to see in everyone else :) )
Carry on - I'll giving myself a vacation from this section for a bit. :)
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Wow, man, that is certainly appreciated, though not something I would consider quite necessary. Knowing that it came from you, I took it as a bit stronger sarcasm, something I myself am not a stranger to, thus hardly in the position to complain about it. Over the years, I learned enough, I think, about the personalities of the participants in these debates, to take things in context of who said it. There are people who often have quite a different opinion than mine, yet are able to present it without personal attacks, in a logical, factual manner, worthy of debate and consideration, and you are certainly one of them.
And I certainly support your desire for the change in discourse, less animosity and more factual and well argued positions.
Once again, thanks, James.
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I haven’t really had much to say on all these topics around Trump and US politics. It always seems to quickly devolve into an ugly emotive debate along American party lines. I’m not American so not my fight. I also think it would be rude and disrespectful to get involved in the personal issues of other people.
However the topic of this thread is the world is laughing, at Trump. Well as part of the world I feel free to post my opinion on this matter. I’m not no sure the world is laughing. Perhaps in some European countries it could be laughter, but where I live not so much. The US is of course a major influence across the planet but not so much as in the past. We don’t see much made in America stuff, perhaps some designed in California labels. That’s too bad. Always admired American engineering.
To many of us the difference between Hillary and Trump is more a matter of style than policy. To me things don’t change that much whoever is running the US. Still lots of trade interference as in we have masses of low quality chicken being dumped here and we must accept it or we don’t get access to to markets. Our chicken industry has died as a result and frankly what is arriving in our stores from the US is of very low quality. We are little and get no say. If the Europeans are sticking it to the US in terms of trade agreements I just see it as a bully getting a bit of push back. Now the US is having a disagreement with China as well. China gets a lot of bad press in the West and justified in many cases. However China has helped Africa much more than the first world ever has. Increasingly we look in that direction. Weird to think but it’s easier for me to get a visa for China and to travel there than any western country. More welcoming, friendlier and comfortable in many ways. My family in California and Hawaii keep inviting me to visit, same with my Norwegian family. I find it hard to say why it doesn’t happen. Last year I spent a month in China on holiday. Next out of Africa trip will be to India I think, or Nepal. Europe and the US are not currently on the agenda.
So laughing, not so much. Bewilderment yes.
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I haven’t really had much to say on all these topics around Trump and US politics. It always seems to quickly devolve into an ugly emotive debate along American party lines. I’m not American so not my fight. I also think it would be rude and disrespectful to get involved in the personal issues of other people.
However the topic of this thread is the world is laughing, at Trump. Well as part of the world I feel free to post my opinion on this matter. I’m not no sure the world is laughing. Perhaps in some European countries it could be laughter, but where I live not so much. The US is of course a major influence across the planet but not so much as in the past. We don’t see much made in America stuff, perhaps some designed in California labels. That’s too bad. Always admired American engineering.
To many of us the difference between Hillary and Trump is more a matter of style than policy. To me things don’t change that much whoever is running the US. Still lots of trade interference as in we have masses of low quality chicken being dumped here and we must accept it or we don’t get access to to markets. Our chicken industry has died as a result and frankly what is arriving in our stores from the US is of very low quality. We are little and get no say. If the Europeans are sticking it to the US in terms of trade agreements I just see it as a bully getting a bit of push back. Now the US is having a disagreement with China as well. China gets a lot of bad press in the West and justified in many cases. However China has helped Africa much more than the first world ever has. Increasingly we look in that direction. Weird to think but it’s easier for me to get a visa for China and to travel there than any western country. More welcoming, friendlier and comfortable in many ways. My family in California and Hawaii keep inviting me to visit, same with my Norwegian family. I find it hard to say why it doesn’t happen. Last year I spent a month in China on holiday. Next out of Africa trip will be to India I think, or Nepal. Europe and the US are not currently on the agenda.
So laughing, not so much. Bewilderment yes.
Your travel problems: you have to thank political correctness for that, especially within Britain. In the US, even Lethal Weapon decides to characterize one of the villains with an SA accent...
Glasgow changed the perfectly good name of one of its public areas as below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Stock_Exchange
and the same kind of emotional charge is manifest all round the world. Sweeping, political gestures born of foreign emotions carry all sorts of eddies and currents nobody would have suspected. Dundee, Scotland, flew (does it still?) the Palestinian flag... a St Andy I could understand.
It is a mess, getting worse.
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I haven’t really had much to say on all these topics around Trump and US politics. It always seems to quickly devolve into an ugly emotive debate along American party lines. I’m not American so not my fight. I also think it would be rude and disrespectful to get involved in the personal issues of other people.
However the topic of this thread is the world is laughing, at Trump. Well as part of the world I feel free to post my opinion on this matter. I’m not no sure the world is laughing. Perhaps in some European countries it could be laughter, but where I live not so much. The US is of course a major influence across the planet but not so much as in the past. We don’t see much made in America stuff, perhaps some designed in California labels. That’s too bad. Always admired American engineering.
To many of us the difference between Hillary and Trump is more a matter of style than policy. To me things don’t change that much whoever is running the US. Still lots of trade interference as in we have masses of low quality chicken being dumped here and we must accept it or we don’t get access to to markets. Our chicken industry has died as a result and frankly what is arriving in our stores from the US is of very low quality. We are little and get no say. If the Europeans are sticking it to the US in terms of trade agreements I just see it as a bully getting a bit of push back. Now the US is having a disagreement with China as well. China gets a lot of bad press in the West and justified in many cases. However China has helped Africa much more than the first world ever has. Increasingly we look in that direction. Weird to think but it’s easier for me to get a visa for China and to travel there than any western country. More welcoming, friendlier and comfortable in many ways. My family in California and Hawaii keep inviting me to visit, same with my Norwegian family. I find it hard to say why it doesn’t happen. Last year I spent a month in China on holiday. Next out of Africa trip will be to India I think, or Nepal. Europe and the US are not currently on the agenda.
So laughing, not so much. Bewilderment yes.
Well, politics can be a tiresome bore, and as the majority of humans have more pressing matters to exert their energy on, undoubtedly the current political circus in the US is more of a momentary diversion. But Trump has been a gift to news organizations and comedians. And the Russians seem to be having a grand time blending the two, as I think the British have done as well, both in their own inimitable way of course.
As for Hillary and Donald, well, the Coffee Corner forum would hardly exist if they were as indistitinct as you suggest. :D
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Well, politics can be a tiresome bore, and as the majority of humans have more pressing matters to exert their energy on, undoubtedly the current political circus in the US is more of a momentary diversion. But Trump has been a gift to news organizations and comedians. And the Russians seem to be having a grand time blending the two, as I think the British have done as well, both in their own inimitable way of course.
As for Hillary and Donald, well, the Coffee Corner forum would hardly exist if they were as indistitinct as you suggest. :D
There are non that differ so violently as those that differ over details. As I said. To me the differences are a matter of style. They are both self important arrogant liars. Neither of them would piss on you if you were on fire. Yet we take time out to defend them and support them. More fools us.
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I never realized America was such a large exporter of chickens. It doesn't seem like that's something we could compete with others.
Here's a summary of our trade with South Africa:
Overall exports to South Africa in 2017 was US$5 billion and we imported about US$7.7 billion. Of that America exported poultry meat & prods. (ex. eggs) equalling $26 million, a small amount compared to overall trade. Prior to 1999, the US exported more to SA then it imported from them. But it's been reversed since then, adding to the reason America is the largest net debtor in the world.
Here's a summary of imports and exports between the two countries.
https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/africa/southern-africa/south-africa (https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/africa/southern-africa/south-africa)
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Funny one isn’t it Alan. As with all things it’s a little nuanced and those numbers you quoted may change as this is a recent development. Apparently in the US you eat different parts of the chicken to what we do. In South Africa the white meat isn’t very popular while in the US the situation is reversed. Your market is huge compared to us so you have tons of chicken parts you can’t sell domestically. We now get that at prices below what it takes to raise a chicken locally. In fairness we are now supposed to be able to sell other stuff to you in compensation. What that is I couldn’t tell you. BMW and Mercedes cars perhaps. We make more of those than we have people that can afford them.
If ever you need goats give me a call. We have loads. Goat MacNugget anyone?
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The US is of course a major influence across the planet but not so much as in the past. We don’t see much made in America stuff, perhaps some designed in California labels. That’s too bad. Always admired American engineering.
Every time we travel to Europe I see lots of Hollister California branded clothes being worn by young Euro men and women. As one who was raised in California I always get a good laugh over this brand which tries to portray a small agricultural town as something more akin to Shangri-La. The funniest shirts are the ones that say 'Hollister Surf Club' despite the town being 30 or so miles from the ocean. The clothing brand is owned by Abercrombie & Fitch.
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Funny one isn’t it Alan. As with all things it’s a little nuanced and those numbers you quoted may change as this is a recent development. Apparently in the US you eat different parts of the chicken to what we do. In South Africa the white meat isn’t very popular while in the US the situation is reversed. Your market is huge compared to us so you have tons of chicken parts you can’t sell domestically. We now get that at prices below what it takes to raise a chicken locally. In fairness we are now supposed to be able to sell other stuff to you in compensation. What that is I couldn’t tell you. BMW and Mercedes cars perhaps. We make more of those than we have people that can afford them.
If ever you need goats give me a call. We have loads. Goat MacNugget anyone?
I like Kentucky Fried Chicken and have been known to stop there for a bite when my wife isn't looking. You can get the dark meat or light meat dinners with mashed potatoes and coleslaw and cornbread. Since I like the dark meat of a leg and the white meat of a breast, something not on the menu directly, they charge me an extra dollar for the combo. "Finger lickin' good!"
Here's the list of your country's export to the US: Trump put tariffs on everyone's steel and aluminum including yours. That's caused problems in your industry. Hopefully he will make some headway in getting rid of all tariffs. That would help out everyone.
South Africa was the United States' 36th largest supplier of goods imports in 2016.
U.S. goods imports from South Africa totaled $6.8 billion in 2016, down 7.5% ($550 million) from 2015, and down 9.8% from 2006.
The top import categories (2-digit HS) in 2016 were: precious metal and stone ( ) ($2.2 billion), vehicles ($1.6 billion), iron and steel ($507 million), machinery ($454 million), and ores, slag, and ash ( ) ($296 million).
U.S. total imports of agricultural products from South Africa totaled $270 million in 2016. Leading categories include: other fresh fruit ($59 million), tree nuts ($53 million), wine and beer ($47 million), processed fruit & vegetables ($24 million), and planting seeds ($14 million).
U.S. imports of services from South Africa were an estimated $1.8 billion in 2016, 12.9% ($208 million) more than 2015, and 34.5% greater than 2006 levels. Leading services imports from South Africa to the U.S. were in the travel, transportation, and professional and management services sectors.
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Martin I just realized we import diamonds from S.A. (The top import categories (2-digit HS) in 2016 were: precious metal and stone ( ) ($2.2 billion)...)
I just bought diamond earrings for my wife for our 25th anniversary. I wonder if they came from South Africa?
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Could have Alan but DeBeers are the diamond supplier to the world. South African company. They have mines all over the world including in South Africa of course. The big diamond producers by country are Namibia, Botswana, Lesotho. Lots coming out of West Africa but the problem there is a lot are conflict stones. Even if sourced from De Beers the diamonds could come from almost anywhere.
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I think our best exports to the States has been people like Elon Musk and Charlize Theron.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/18/us-government-paid-trumps-turnberry-hotel-53000
In any other country this would be regarded as fraud? Trumps visit to Scotland was a private visit.
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There are non that differ so violently as those that differ over details. As I said. To me the differences are a matter of style. They are both self important arrogant liars. Neither of them would piss on you if you were on fire. Yet we take time out to defend them and support them. More fools us.
Yeah, you’re not invested in the consequences of American politics. Okay, except for chicken.
PS Charlize Theron can stay here as long as she wants, and make all the movies she wants. Yeah.
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I think our best exports to the States has been people like Elon Musk and Charlize Theron.
Brains and beauty. Well, she's pretty smart too. :)
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Just to be clear. When I was so scathing about Trump and H Clinton I was pointing to them as represenatatives of politicians in general. Not just American politicians. We have our own you know.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/18/us-government-paid-trumps-turnberry-hotel-53000 (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/18/us-government-paid-trumps-turnberry-hotel-53000)
In any other country this would be regarded as fraud? Trumps visit to Scotland was a private visit.
When Obama went on private vacations to Hawaii where he's from originally, the government picked up all the costs (US$5 million in 2015, one of 8 trips he took there) for security, travel, Air Force 1 and supporting aircraft, his wife, his kids, etc. He stayed at an estate that rents for $5000-$10000 a night depending on the season. He doesn't own anything in Hawaii. Additionally, how else do you protect the President? Should Obama fly Air Hawaii? In any case, the president is always on duty doing the business of America. Do you really think Trump ever stops working at it? Frankly, it would be nice if he did take a break and give everyone else time to breathe. :)
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/obama-familys-2015-hawaii-vacation-cost-taxpayers-4823206-88/
Some of the costs for Obama's trip just for the Secret Service:
"Although the vacation officially lasted from December 18, 2015, to January 3, 2016, the Secret Service rented several Kailua homes for 19 nights, starting from December 16. The total for the rentals, located near the Marine Corps base at Kaneohe Bay was $245,993.12. According to bills obtained by Judicial Watch through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), the Secret Service also paid for rooms at the Hawaii Prince Hotel Waikiki and Golf Club. The Secret Service also reserved rooms at the Moana Surfrider resort on Waikiki Beach, and the Ala Moana Hotel, which cost a total of $40,249.48 and $671,895.99, respectively.[/font][/size]
The Secret Service rented cars from Avis, Alamo, and Hertz – 103 cars for the two-week vacation, totaling $165,893.88 in taxpayer money.[/font][/size]
Reportedly, the Obamas stayed at the Hale Reena Estate (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obama-hawaii-vacation-rentals_us_56709ac0e4b0dfd4bcbfd707), which “rents for anywhere between $5,000 to $10,000 a night, depending on the season.”[/font][/size]
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I like Kentucky Fried Chicken and have been known to stop there for a bite when my wife isn't looking. You can get the dark meat or light meat dinners with mashed potatoes and coleslaw and cornbread. Since I like the dark meat of a leg and the white meat of a breast, something not on the menu directly, they charge me an extra dollar for the combo. "Finger lickin' good!"
Here's the list of your country's export to the US: Trump put tariffs on everyone's steel and aluminum including yours. That's caused problems in your industry. Hopefully he will make some headway in getting rid of all tariffs. That would help out everyone.
South Africa was the United States' 36th largest supplier of goods imports in 2016.
U.S. goods imports from South Africa totaled $6.8 billion in 2016, down 7.5% ($550 million) from 2015, and down 9.8% from 2006.
The top import categories (2-digit HS) in 2016 were: precious metal and stone ( ) ($2.2 billion), vehicles ($1.6 billion), iron and steel ($507 million), machinery ($454 million), and ores, slag, and ash ( ) ($296 million).
U.S. total imports of agricultural products from South Africa totaled $270 million in 2016. Leading categories include: other fresh fruit ($59 million), tree nuts ($53 million), wine and beer ($47 million), processed fruit & vegetables ($24 million), and planting seeds ($14 million).
U.S. imports of services from South Africa were an estimated $1.8 billion in 2016, 12.9% ($208 million) more than 2015, and 34.5% greater than 2006 levels. Leading services imports from South Africa to the U.S. were in the travel, transportation, and professional and management services sectors.
One more time!
You return to the plea of totally removing tariffs. Remove them from Europe or China and Pittsburgh does not soar again. It stays buried forever. Don't you get it? When you insist on paying yourself more than does you neighbour for similar product, you will never compete without tarrifs; you vanish under the burden of your own domestic costs! Then only in a closed loop of internal economy, devoid of export of import, can you keep rolling.
Only by trying to negotiate relative prices that permit mutual survival with your trading partners do you have any trade left at all. That's what trade negotiations between nations are meant to thrash out. And precisely why unilateral walking always and girly hissy-fits are so internationally destructive. If Mr T affected only the States, nobody else would complain at all. Unfortunately, the madness has worldwide ramifications.
Exactly the same, destructive muscle-bound shit goes down with farming and the supermarkets, and is embodied in the street price of milk, which bleeds the farmer dry but is just a price-cutter lure in the inter-supermarkets' battle for supremacy and market share, with the end-hope of absolute monopoly.
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When Obama went on private vacations to Hawaii where he's from originally, the government picked up all the costs (US$5 million in 2015, one of 8 trips he took there) for security, travel, Air Force 1 and supporting aircraft, his wife, his kids, etc. He stayed at an estate that rents for $5000-$10000 a night depending on the season. He doesn't own anything in Hawaii. Additionally, how else do you protect the President? Should Obama fly Air Hawaii? In any case, the president is always on duty doing the business of America. Do you really think Trump ever stops working at it? Frankly, it would be nice if he did take a break and give everyone else time to breathe. :)
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/obama-familys-2015-hawaii-vacation-cost-taxpayers-4823206-88/
Some of the costs for Obama's trip just for the Secret Service:
"Although the vacation officially lasted from December 18, 2015, to January 3, 2016, the Secret Service rented several Kailua homes for 19 nights, starting from December 16. The total for the rentals, located near the Marine Corps base at Kaneohe Bay was $245,993.12. According to bills obtained by Judicial Watch through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), the Secret Service also paid for rooms at the Hawaii Prince Hotel Waikiki and Golf Club. The Secret Service also reserved rooms at the Moana Surfrider resort on Waikiki Beach, and the Ala Moana Hotel, which cost a total of $40,249.48 and $671,895.99, respectively.[/font][/size]
The Secret Service rented cars from Avis, Alamo, and Hertz – 103 cars for the two-week vacation, totaling $165,893.88 in taxpayer money.[/font][/size]
Reportedly, the Obamas stayed at the Hale Reena Estate (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obama-hawaii-vacation-rentals_us_56709ac0e4b0dfd4bcbfd707), which “rents for anywhere between $5,000 to $10,000 a night, depending on the season.”[/font][/size]
Trump went to Scotland purely to play golf. He played two rounds. He owns the hotel therefore the money went into his wallet. This has nothing to do with Obama.
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One more time!
You return to the plea of totally removing tariffs. Remove them from Europe or China and Pittsburgh does not soar again. It stays buried forever. Don't you get it? When you insist on paying yourself more than does you neighbour for similar product, you will never compete without tarrifs; you vanish under the burden of your own domestic costs! Then only in a closed loop of internal economy, devoid of export of import, can you keep rolling.
Only by trying to negotiate relative prices that permit mutual survival with your trading partners do you have any trade left at all. That's what trade negotiations between nations are meant to thrash out. And precisely why unilateral walking always and girly hissy-fits are so internationally destructive. If Mr T affected only the States, nobody else would complain at all. Unfortunately, the madness has worldwide ramifications.
Exactly the same, destructive muscle-bound shit goes down with farming and the supermarkets, and is embodied in the street price of milk, which bleeds the farmer dry but is just a price-cutter lure in the inter-supermarkets' battle for supremacy and market share, with the end-hope of absolute monopoly.
If tariffs are bad for America, and I agree they are long term, then they are bad for Europe and China as well. For you to argue that yours are justified and superior and ours aren't is tortured logic. Let's drop tariffs across the board and have real free and fair trade. Tariffs are government subsidies in effect and are bad for free markets. They shut down competition and reduce wealth production overall producing winners and losers by government fiat.
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Trump went to Scotland purely to play golf. He played two rounds. He owns the hotel therefore the money went into his wallet. This has nothing to do with Obama.
...and Obama went to Hawaii 8 times with his family on vacation to do what? The fact Obama was a poor President (he isn't any longer worth $60 million) and owned no property, does not mean Trump should live in a tent. Trump owns property. He lives in Trump Tower and stays there in his home when he visits NYC . The Secret Service spends millions every year on security and has to reimburse Trump Tower for that. Should Trump donate three floors of the Tower to the government for the Secret Service to sleep and set up headquarters? You're not serious are you? They also rent and use property in other buildings around the Tower that Trump does not own. The same when he visits Mar-a-lago in Florida.
Regarding Scotland, as you said he owns the hotel there and stayed there. Should he rent your house to stay in. The Scotland Golf Club is his home away from home. Bush and Johnson stayed on their Texas ranches that also had heavy Secret Service protection. Congress authorizes payments for these things. Each political party always complains when the president of the opposing party spends money on their vacations etc. There's nothing different about the past except that Trump is rich and stays in his rich residences. Congress approved it. Of course all the big shots in COngress get flown around in private jets owned and run by the USAF. So usually its the COngressmen who don't get that perk who complain about the president's perks. :)
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By the way, Trump gives the government back his entire presidential salary something Obama didn't do. I guess he doesn't want to look like a cheapskate. :)
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Two wrongs do not make a right and you always try to shift the blame. This smacks of Trump trying to line his pocket which is his sole reason for being President? ::)
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Speaking of presidential perks, I always loved the Marines' secret call-sign for the chopper that hauled Hillary around: "Broomstick One."
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Two wrongs do not make a right and you always try to shift the blame. This smacks of Trump trying to line his pocket which is his sole reason for being President? ::)
Trump didn't need the presidency to become rich. He already was rich. Obama on the other hand was poor and is now worth 60 million since being president. The Clinton's have become hundreds of millionaire since becoming president. Al Gore become a hundred millionaire plus since being only a vice president.
There are no two wrongs. Obama spent a lot of our taxpayers money on vacations. He deserved it too. Americans are happy about their presidents and want them to have peace and quiet on their time off and are willing to spend for their security and help. Well, at least if the president is from the party they favor. If he's from the other party, then he shouldn't get a dime :)
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If tariffs are bad for America, and I agree they are long term, then they are bad for Europe and China as well. For you to argue that yours are justified and superior and ours aren't is tortured logic. Let's drop tariffs across the board and have real free and fair trade. Tariffs are government subsidies in effect and are bad for free markets. They shut down competition and reduce wealth production overall producing winners and losers by government fiat.
Harry Effin' C, Alan, what ails you? Do you have reading deficiency of some kind?
I just explained to you, in the most simple terms I can find, that when you pay yourself too much (you, the USA) then you will perish regardless of what lower price others charge themselves. You, as manufacturers and employers, know that already, which is the sole reason you hire illegals whenever and wherever you can: to attempt to be able to remain competitive and be able to shift your product. At legal US rates of pay, that appears an impossible task, even within rich America.
I tried to tell you that that's where trade deals come in, where correctional balances such as tariff levels are agreed, and can't be walked away from unilateraly without causing chaos.
Why does that logic escape you, or find only your blind side?
Sorry, man, there is no point in throwing ideas around with you: they bounce right off and spin away into space.
Adios.
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...and Obama went to Hawaii 8 times with his family on vacation to do what? The fact Obama was a poor President (he isn't any longer worth $60 million) and owned no property, does not mean Trump should live in a tent. Trump owns property. He lives in Trump Tower and stays there in his home when he visits NYC . The Secret Service spends millions every year on security and has to reimburse Trump Tower for that. Should Trump donate three floors of the Tower to the government for the Secret Service to sleep and set up headquarters? You're not serious are you? They also rent and use property in other buildings around the Tower that Trump does not own. The same when he visits Mar-a-lago in Florida.
It's really a no point worthless discussion about travel expenses. Judicial Watch which is a conservative group carefully documented the Obama travel expenses and are doing the same thing for Trump. I think the Obama family went to Hawaii once each winter while Trump flies down to Mar A Lago almost every weekend. In nice weather he goes up to his golf club in New Jersey. In terms of number of trips Trump trumps Obama. We only have monetary data for a little over one year for President Trump so it's not clear whether taxpayers will end up paying more for his travel than for Obama. In terms of Secret Service protection, it was clearly easier to secure the Texas ranch for Bush-2 than for the Hawaii vacations and Trump visits. Obama also used Camp David a lot and Trump doesn't use it at all.
For those interested, a summary of the Judicial Watch accounting for Trump's first year of travels is HERE. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/20/trumps-travel-costs-during-his-first-year-exceed-13-million-dollars.html)
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Harry Effin' C, Alan, what ails you? Do you have reading deficiency of some kind?
I just explained to you, in the most simple terms I can find, that when you pay yourself too much (you, the USA) then you will perish regardless of what lower price others charge themselves. You, as manufacturers and employers, know that already, which is the sole reason you hire illegals whenever and wherever you can: to attempt to be able to remain competitive and be able to shift your product. At legal US rates of pay, that appears an impossible task, even within rich America.
I tried to tell you that that's where trade deals come in, where correctional balances such as tariff levels are agreed, and can't be walked away from unilateraly without causing chaos.
Why does that logic escape you, or find only your blind side?
Sorry, man, there is no point in throwing ideas around with you: they bounce right off and spin away into space.
Adios.
Rob. We are talking about tariffs, not the difference in costs to build a similar product made in different nations. Regardless of what it costs America to make a car, for example, your 10% tariff makes it just that much harder to sell our cars over there because you have no tariffs on your own cars. It's harder to compete with your cars in Europe. However, America only applies 1 1/2% tariff on your cars sent here so you can better compete with our Fords and Chevys made here. All we want to do is equalize the tariffs, eliminate them would be better, so we can compete on an equal basis in your country as you do in ours. So until we equalize tariffs, we're going to increase tariffs to meet yours to reduce your ability to export to us and complete with our products built here. If we still lose out once we get rid of tariffs on both sides because our labor prices are too high, so be it. At least that would come from fair competition. This is what Trump is doing. I guess he took my advice. :)
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It's really a no point worthless discussion about travel expenses. Judicial Watch which is a conservative group carefully documented the Obama travel expenses and are doing the same thing for Trump. I think the Obama family went to Hawaii once each winter while Trump flies down to Mar A Lago almost every weekend. In nice weather he goes up to his golf club in New Jersey. In terms of number of trips Trump trumps Obama. We only have monetary data for a little over one year for President Trump so it's not clear whether taxpayers will end up paying more for his travel than for Obama. In terms of Secret Service protection, it was clearly easier to secure the Texas ranch for Bush-2 than for the Hawaii vacations and Trump visits. Obama also used Camp David a lot and Trump doesn't use it at all.
For those interested, a summary of the Judicial Watch accounting for Trump's first year of travels is HERE. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/20/trumps-travel-costs-during-his-first-year-exceed-13-million-dollars.html)
And your point is what? ??? That Obama is frugal? That he lived in a log cabin and chopped wood to heat it while he was president? That he wanted to save the taxpayer money. Let's see. He cost the American taxpayers $5 million for a two week vacation in Hawaii times 8 vacations or $40 million. Chump change, I guess. But I wouldn't know what it feels like when Obama spent $10,000 a night for a hotel room in Hawaii on vacation with taxpayer's money. Must be sweet.
This comes up every time there's a new president. People who voted for the president think he deserves it all. Voters who didn't think he shouldn't get a dime. :)
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And your point is what? ??? That Obama is frugal?
I said nothing of the sort and don't appreciate you putting words to my post when they did not exist. I only pointed out the obvious, both Presidents Obama and Trump have spent taxpayer money for travel and security; nothing more and nothing less. I'll leave it at that and only note that anyone interested in this going forward can follow Judicial Watch for a full accounting of the Trump expenditures. I could care less.
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I said nothing of the sort and don't appreciate you putting words to my post when they did not exist. I only pointed out the obvious, both Presidents Obama and Trump have spent taxpayer money for travel and security; nothing more and nothing less. I'll leave it at that and only note that anyone interested in this going forward can follow Judicial Watch for a full accounting of the Trump expenditures. I could care less.
The thrust of your original post was that Trump was somehow taking advantage of the taxpayers. I was just pointing out that Obama cost us millions too and was no Saint.
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How many American presidents have been assasinated? More than in any other democratic country 8 imagine. Stop offing the presidents and you can start saving on security I would imagine.
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... He owns the hotel therefore the money went into his wallet...
After paying for the local wages, taxes, suppliers, etc., which would take 80-90% of the money spent there.
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In any case, there's no agreement as far as I know that allows the EU to charge 10% tariffs on American cars sent there while we charge only 2.5% on European cars sent here.
What’s the point of negotiating the reducation of tariffs for US cars that nobody is interested in buying outside the US?
Ok, Tesla is one exception but they can’t produce enough to meet US demand.
Cheers,
Bernard
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What’s the point of negotiating the reducation of tariffs for US cars that nobody is interested in buying outside the US?
Ok, Tesla is one exception but they can’t produce enough to meet US demand.
Cheers,
Bernard
Then the EU should have no problem eliminating their tariffs. We'll see what happens when Junker negotiates next week in the US when he meets with Administration trade officials.
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Then the EU should have no problem eliminating their tariffs. We'll see what happens when Junker negotiates next week in the US when he meets with Administration trade officials.
In my view yes.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Will Junker eliminate tariffs on everything else is well?
Or do you think Trump will add tariffs on cars anyway just to get Europe to reduce them on other products?
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So now we have a currency crisis on top of a tariff dispute.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-20/currency-war-erupts-as-trump-blasts-china-eu-for-manipulating
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Will Junker eliminate tariffs on everything else is well?
Or do you think Trump will add tariffs on cars anyway just to get Europe to reduce them on other products?
The concept of negotiation is understood. Now, this is just a theory of yours that will only be backed up by facts the moment Trump lowers those he has been raising.
I understand also the urge for you to try to look at his decisions as if they were aligned with the fundamental Republican values, but again... it is nothing but wishful thinking at the moment.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The concept of negotiation is understood. Now, this is just a theory of yours that will only be backed up by facts the moment Trump lowers those he has been raising.
I understand also the urge for you to try to look at his decisions as if they were aligned with the fundamental Republican values, but again... it is nothing but wishful thinking at the moment.
Cheers,
Bernard
I'm sorry. But I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate?
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> The world is laughing.
There was a time when the US was one of Australia's largest trading partners. It is now 6th at under 4%. So when someone from the US pops downs and says we need to stop trading with China at 30% then they may well get laughed at.
Our biggest trade deficit however is with the US. That means that we import a lot more than we export. That probably has a lot to do with trade barriers on exports such as agriculture. We import a lot of iPhones, but they are probably made in Malaysia anyway. We also import a lot of defence stuff, like a missile defence system that nobody knows if it even works.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/australias-top-import-partners/
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> The world is laughing.
There was a time when the US was one of Australia's largest trading partners. It is now 6th at under 4%. So when someone from the US pops downs and says we need to stop trading with China at 30% then they may well get laughed at.
Our biggest trade deficit however is with the US. That means that we import a lot more than we export. That probably has a lot to do with trade barriers on exports such as agriculture. We import a lot of iPhones, but they are probably made in Malaysia anyway. We also import a lot of defence stuff, like a missile defence system that nobody knows if it even works.
http://www.worldstopexports.com/australias-top-import-partners/
You can safely bet that Rubber Man will either ignore or change that to a positive - for everyone - and yet another example of how Mr T has got it right, and the rest of the world is stupid. And in a sense he is right: not only does he manage to sell war toys to NATO, he wants us to pay increasingly more on top of the purchase for the privilege of playing with 'em.
Broadly speaking, I guess that if I had been born into billions, I'd probably also still have a few billion left, no matter what an incompetent asshole I was and how many other lives I had ruined by going serial bankrupt at convenient times!
As for those stand-up Pressie guys we were talking about some time ago: the one I think did put his money where his mouth was, was the late J Kennedy. Cuba was the step too far for the Opposition to attempt. He faced them down. We had Churchill and Thatcher - and nothing since, much as has been your own fate. Obama: he did try to save America from shooting itself and its kids into oblivion, but the lobbies defeated him; he did tell the UK that post-Brexit they would stand last in the queue for trade deals becaue the US prefers to deal with the Big Boys. Quite bloody right, too! So at least he was blunt enough to be honest with "our best friends" and say what was always glaringly obvious. Today, best friends can be Germany, France, the UK, NK, SK, Japan, Russia - wait for it Oz, your turn is somewhere on that flexible list! Of course, if by best you also mean you do not have a list of priorities in mind, I guess any old nation you communicate with can be best friend. Showbiz "darling", then.
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So now we have a currency crisis on top of a tariff dispute.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-20/currency-war-erupts-as-trump-blasts-china-eu-for-manipulating
You state this as if the tariff dispute and possible currency problems just happened to happen. Trump created them out of thin air. The US economy was humming along fine. There were no major problems to fix and those, whatever they were, could have easily be dealt using the existing international mechanisms that were put into place for exactly that purpose.
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You state this as if the tariff dispute and possible currency problems just happened to happen. Trump created them out of thin air. The US economy was humming along fine. There were no major problems to fix and those, whatever they were, could have easily be dealt using the existing international mechanisms that were put into place for exactly that purpose.
OF course they'r related. Some background.
They have been manipulating their currency for years against the world to get an economic advantage against all of us. China ignored three WTO "lawsuits" we made against them under Obama that we won. Even Obama imposed tariffs but did it half way and the Chinese ignored him. China has been stealing all our intellectual property, and yours too, at a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars. They gleefully signed the Paris Accords that somewhat binds the rest of the world to spending more on energy. This raises the cost of manufacturing for the rest of the Paris accord signer (except us since Trump dropped out). It makes Chinese products more competitive since they don;t have to meet any standards until 2030. It's another arrow in their quiver to make everyone else economy less competitive. When a foreign company opens a factory in China, they are required to turn over all design of their products. That theft saves huge research and development costs.
I'm a free marketeer. I believe the government should only provide an even playing ground to do competitive business. The government is also responsible of protecting our industries as well as your government protects yours. I don't know if raising tariffs are the way to force a better situation or not. It may turn out worse. But Trump ran on correcting it and is doing what he thinks is the only way to correct it. I hope it works. If his way is wrong, what should be done about China's theft, currency manipulation etc? They refuse to comply with world standards and rules.
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It seems Macron and Trump will be comparing notes soon as the French leader faces criticism.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-news-macron-beat-07222018-story.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-news-macron-beat-07222018-story.html)
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OF course they'r related. Some background.
They have been manipulating their currency for years against the world to get an economic advantage against all of us. China ignored three WTO "lawsuits" we made against them under Obama that we won. Even Obama imposed tariffs but did it half way and the Chinese ignored him. China has been stealing all our intellectual property, and yours too, at a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars. They gleefully signed the Paris Accords that somewhat binds the rest of the world to spending more on energy. This raises the cost of manufacturing for the rest of the Paris accord signer (except us since Trump dropped out). It makes Chinese products more competitive since they don;t have to meet any standards until 2030. It's another arrow in their quiver to make everyone else economy less competitive. When a foreign company opens a factory in China, they are required to turn over all design of their products. That theft saves huge research and development costs.
I'm a free marketeer. I believe the government should only provide an even playing ground to do competitive business. The government is also responsible of protecting our industries as well as your government protects yours. I don't know if raising tariffs are the way to force a better situation or not. It may turn out worse. But Trump ran on correcting it and is doing what he thinks is the only way to correct it. I hope it works. If his way is wrong, what should be done about China's theft, currency manipulation etc? They refuse to comply with world standards and rules.
Oh I didn't mention tariffs. China imposes a 40% tariff on BMW cars built in America that we try to sell in China. How does that help America, BMW or Germany?
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How Ivanka Trump’s fashion line was exempted from her father’s war on Chinese goods
https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/how-ivanka-trumps-fashion-line-was-exempted-from-her-fathers-war-on-chinese-goods/news-story/fe2eb5ccd567062defe1e8dab68dc5a7 (https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/how-ivanka-trumps-fashion-line-was-exempted-from-her-fathers-war-on-chinese-goods/news-story/fe2eb5ccd567062defe1e8dab68dc5a7)
QUOTE "In a press release, the Office of the United States Trade Representative explained that the goods affected were chosen based on what would impact the US economy and American customers the least.
Donald Trump’s trade war on China has begun, but Ivanka has escaped the firing line.
“Trade analysts from several US Government agencies identified products that benefit from Chinese industrial policies, including Made in China 2025,” the release said.
“The list was refined by removing specific products identified by analysts as likely to cause disruptions to the US economy, and tariff lines that are subject to legal or administrative constraints.
“The remaining products were ranked according to the likely impact on US consumers, based on available trade data involving alternative country sources for each product. The proposed list was then compiled by selecting products from the ranked list with lowest consumer impact.
In other words, banning the categories Ivanka’s goods fell into would have a greater impact on American shoppers than those that Trump has threatened, which includes fish, electronics, produce and beauty goods."”
Cheers,
Bart
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How Ivanka Trump’s fashion line was exempted from her father’s war on Chinese goods
https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/how-ivanka-trumps-fashion-line-was-exempted-from-her-fathers-war-on-chinese-goods/news-story/fe2eb5ccd567062defe1e8dab68dc5a7 (https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/how-ivanka-trumps-fashion-line-was-exempted-from-her-fathers-war-on-chinese-goods/news-story/fe2eb5ccd567062defe1e8dab68dc5a7)
QUOTE "In a press release, the Office of the United States Trade Representative explained that the goods affected were chosen based on what would impact the US economy and American customers the least.
Donald Trump’s trade war on China has begun, but Ivanka has escaped the firing line.
“Trade analysts from several US Government agencies identified products that benefit from Chinese industrial policies, including Made in China 2025,” the release said.
“The list was refined by removing specific products identified by analysts as likely to cause disruptions to the US economy, and tariff lines that are subject to legal or administrative constraints.
“The remaining products were ranked according to the likely impact on US consumers, based on available trade data involving alternative country sources for each product. The proposed list was then compiled by selecting products from the ranked list with lowest consumer impact.
In other words, banning the categories Ivanka’s goods fell into would have a greater impact on American shoppers than those that Trump has threatened, which includes fish, electronics, produce and beauty goods."”
Cheers,
Bart
Well, she is his daughter. Can you imagine her phone to her father if the US trade division included her stuff. "Daddy. You are the President. Can't you do something?"
In any case, Trump will be putting tariffs on all Chinese products. So I doubt if she'll be immuned much longer.
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Well, she is his daughter. Can you imagine her phone to her father if the US trade division included her stuff. "Daddy. You are the President. Can't you do something?"
Can I imagine her calling and asking him to help? Yes, I can. Can I imagine him declining because it would be unethical to do so? Nope.
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In other words, banning the categories Ivanka’s goods fell into would have a greater impact on American shoppers than those that Trump has threatened, which includes fish, electronics, produce and beauty goods."”[/i]
Cheers,
Bart
I know that Lord & Taylor, a major American clothing store, has stopped carrying Ivanka Trump branded items. It may be that sales of her clothing line are dropping because of lack of demand and tariffs would be insignificant in terms of sales loss.
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I know that Lord & Taylor, a major American clothing store, has stopped carrying Ivanka Trump branded items. It may be that sales of her clothing line are dropping because of lack of demand and tariffs would be insignificant in terms of sales loss.
You must be reading the fake news from the Washington Post again. Lord and Taylor seems to be selling it.
http://www.lordandtaylor.com/Ivanka-Trump/Women/Clothing/Skirts/shop/_/N-1z138o7Z4ztezc
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You must be reading the fake news from the Washington Post again. Lord and Taylor seems to be selling it.
http://www.lordandtaylor.com/Ivanka-Trump/Women/Clothing/Skirts/shop/_/N-1z138o7Z4ztezc
Perhaps Alan misspoke and meant to say Nordstroms.
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They have some pretty significant discounts on some of the items. Not selling very well, perhaps?
Trump cares about Trump, and, to the extent that it reflects on him, his family. He demonstrably makes constant mistakes and lies, and resorts to infantile name calling and abuse. He's a disgrace, and he's doing nothing to help the US.
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I'm sorry. But I don't understand your points. Could you elaborate?
Maybe the bot needs a software upgrade!
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You must be reading the fake news from the Washington Post again. Lord and Taylor seems to be selling it.
http://www.lordandtaylor.com/Ivanka-Trump/Women/Clothing/Skirts/shop/_/N-1z138o7Z4ztezc
My wife shops at the local Lord & Taylor a lot and when she was in last week she was told that the store is no longer carrying Ivanka branded clothes. That is the only data point I have and it's not fake news as my wife always tells the truth.
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So, assuming it's true, Alan, what do you suppose is the reason?
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My wife shops at the local Lord & Taylor a lot and when she was in last week she was told that the store is no longer carrying Ivanka branded clothes. That is the only data point I have and it's not fake news as my wife always tells the truth.
Well Trump gets his news from the media and they always tell the truth too. :)
OK we'll give you a pass and accept that you misspoke and did not lie. Would you be willing to accept the Trump misspeaks at times and give him a pass? Frankly, I think Trump has a touch of dyslexia mixed with New Yorker hyperbole and often gets his words mixed up and the liberal press takes advantage of that.
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Actually, Alan, he does it on purpose to keep the left-wing media off balance. Works like a charm. They always go off baying after his mechanical rabbits.
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Well Trump gets his news from the media and they always tell the truth too. :)
OK we'll give you a pass and accept that you misspoke and did not lie. Would you be willing to accept the Trump misspeaks at times and give him a pass? Frankly, I think Trump has a touch of dyslexia mixed with New Yorker hyperbole and often gets his words mixed up and the liberal press takes advantage of that.
I think that comment is offensive to dyslexics. There is a difference between trouble with letters and being a horrible liar.
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I think that comment is offensive to dyslexics. There is a difference between trouble with letters and being a horrible liar.
He didn't lie when he made his campaign promises unlike most politicians who do different things after they're elected because it's politically expedient.
Take moving our embassy to Jerusalem. He said he would do it in the campaign. Then when he said he would actually do it as president, everyone including most of the people in his own party told him not to do it. It would create more problems, blah blah blah. Well, he did it anyway. There's been no baleful results. But the point is, whether you agree with the policy or not, he stuck to his word. That's refreshing in a politician.
I think he's made up his mind that he will do stuff that he wanted to do before becoming president to help America . Damn impeachment, screw re-election, the heck with a republican controlled congress, the hell with the media, or whatever. I guess it's because he has a job other than being politician that he can be free to do what he wants. I'm not saying he won't compromise or complain or make deals. It's just that he follows his own compass most of the time. I like that.
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He didn't lie when he made his campaign promises unlike most politicians who do different things after they're elected because it's politically expedient.
Take moving our embassy to Jerusalem. He said he would do it in the campaign. Then when he said he would actually do it as president, everyone including most of the people in his own party told him not to do it. It would create more problems, blah blah blah. Well, he did it anyway. There's been no baleful results. But the point is, whether you agree with the policy or not, he stuck to his word. That's refreshing in a politician.
I think he's made up his mind that he will do stuff that he wanted to do before becoming president to help America . Damn impeachment, screw re-election, the heck with a republican controlled congress, the hell with the media, or whatever. I guess it's because he has a job other than being politician that he can be free to do what he wants. I'm not saying he won't compromise or complain or make deals. It's just that he follows his own compass most of the time. I like that.
Following your own compass is great when you are alone in your boat.
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My wife shops at the local Lord & Taylor a lot and when she was in last week she was told that the store is no longer carrying Ivanka branded clothes. That is the only data point I have and it's not fake news as my wife always tells the truth.
I doesn't seem to matter anymore, Alan - Ivanka Trump is closing down her fashion company. That's what CNN just broadcast. Maybe some won't believe and rate this as fake news?
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I doesn't seem to matter anymore, Alan - Ivanka Trump is closing down her fashion company. That's what CNN just broadcast. Maybe some won't believe and rate this as fake news?
She will more than make it up from the publicity created by Trump becoming president.
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She will more than make it up from the publicity created by Trump becoming president.
Maybe according to the old aphorism, "...she can turn sows' ears into purses......"
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I doesn't seem to matter anymore, Alan - Ivanka Trump is closing down her fashion company. That's what CNN just broadcast. Maybe some won't believe and rate this as fake news?
A direct quote from Ms. Trump, "After 17 months in Washington, I do not know when or if I will ever return to the business, but I do know that my focus for the foreseeable future will be the work I am doing here in Washington, so making this decision now is the only fair outcome for my team and partners.”
I hope this is not fake news since it comes from a press release but I'm more interested to know what exactly she is working on here in Washington. It's not readily apparent.
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A better question, Alan, is: what difference could it possibly make?
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I'm more interested to know what exactly she is working on here in Washington. It's not readily apparent.
She has reportedly been spending quite a bit of time lobbying congressional representatives of both parties to enact a federal family leave law. The United States is one of the few major industrial countries that doesn't subsidize time off from work for new parents or for parents to care for sick children. If I recall correctly, even some Democrats gave her credit for persuading the Senate to hold a public hearing on the issue earlier this month.
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Following your own compass is great when you are alone in your boat.
Rob, 60 million people voted for him and support his policies. He's not alone.
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Rob, 60 million people voted for him and support his policies. He's not alone.
I know it's not Trump's fault but 60 million out of about 330,000 million is not a lot, even if you remove all the underage folks who can't vote yet. But it seems as if nothing much can be done about this.
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My wife shops at the local Lord & Taylor a lot and when she was in last week she was told that the store is no longer carrying Ivanka branded clothes. That is the only data point I have and it's not fake news as my wife always tells the truth.
Just coincidentally, I was in the mall today to buy some shirts for myself and stopped in at Lord and Taylor. After I bought a shirt, I went over to the ladies department. I asked the saleswomen if she had Ivanka dresses. After giving me a weird look, she pointed over to to a section and told me that all Ivanka's stuff was over there. I thank her and added sheepishly that I wanted to buy something for my wife. :-[
So I moseyed over to the Ivanka clothes and jewelry section and there it was.
Then I looked at the label to see where it was made.
Then I notice a piece of paper sticking out of the shirt pocket. I pulled it out, unfolded it, and it said Vote for Trump. My Daddy needs your vote. MAGA.
What a daughter! :)
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I know it's not Trump's fault but 60 million out of about 330,000 million is not a lot, even if you remove all the underage folks who can't vote yet. But it seems as if nothing much can be done about this.
Well, a lot of Americans are shooting at each other. They're busy.
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Just coincidentally, I was in the mall today to buy some shirts for myself and stopped in at Lord and Taylor. After I bought a shirt, I went over to the ladies department. I asked the saleswomen if she had Ivanka dresses. After giving me a weird look, she pointed over to to a section and told me that all Ivanka's stuff was over there. I thank her and added sheepishly that I wanted to buy something for my wife. :-[
So I moseyed over to the Ivanka clothes and jewelry section and there it was.
Then I looked at the label to see where it was made.
Must be a regional issue but I guess the rack will soon be history if they ever sell the remainders. Yes, all of her line is made in China AFAIK. I wonder if her company had an ethical compliance code. I've been a VF shareholder (Lee and Wrangler jeans, North Face, Timberland, and a host of other brands) and they have a good set of compliance principles. (https://sustainability.vfc.com/resources/policies-standards/global-compliance-principles)
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He didn't lie when he made his campaign promises
That's a bit rich, even for the most determined troll. Maybe tone down your stories - they work better if they're just vaguely plausible.
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Rob, 60 million people voted for him and support his policies. He's not alone.
Except that's a small percentage of the population, but even so, did that small percentage have any idea that they would be ruled by a guy who runs "diplomacy" via Tweet, says one thing and contradicts or apologises for it the very next moment, and ignores what many of his own team seem to think is sane?
Of course, that only matters if the voter is sane. From the outside, it seems that is as unlikely a scenario as it is back in my own land.
Kinda reminds me of the current UK political lot, where they are both in meltdown, have no ¡dea what to do next, promise to deliver everything without having the power to deliver anything but disaster through inertia.
Labour is currently enjoying internecine destruction about whether or not it loves Jews. On another front it wants to limit immigration to satisfy the threatened lower earners (if they are threatened, or just imagine it because those damned foreigners visibly do the jobs the Brit thinks less rewarding than the unemployment gig) yet at the same time, knows that that's the number it has to increase in order not only to attract the critical mass of voters it traditionally draws from the lower ranks, but also has to give the impression that it is the party of the open, welcoming arms, something easy to be when you pay for it from the pockets of the higher earners (you dig the circle of interests?) or simply increase your nation's international debt.
Conservatives don't know if they live in the 1800s, if they can just send a gunboat somewhere or if they have to belong to a power greater than their own to ensure national (as in British) survival. Scotland, the while, sings popular songs, mourns burned out old art school buildings that are better flattened and rebuilt to suit today, and sharpens its claymores... The Irish? Who can tell - who ever could? The Welsh? Who dat?
In short, Trumpo could well be the poster boy of many western societies.
Ye gods! How did it come to pass?
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Ye gods! How did it come to pass?
Don't despair, a lot of it isn't real. For example, the US seems to be in a tizzy about immigration for which many reasons are given, loss of jobs to Americans being one. Except the US economy has been humming along with healthy monthly job creation numbers for 8 consecutive years now (pointedly, 6 of those years before Trump was elected). California farm owners are facing a labour shortage and some are considering moving to other countries, including Mexico. Mexican immigration has been decreasing for the last few years because of improved conditions back home. Of course, the country needs to find ways to deal with illegal immigration, no question, but are the current urgent headlines real or just propaganda designed to distract?
In many places, including these pages, we're subjected to "libertarian" (not sure what other word to use) views about free markets and standing on your own two feet, but I haven't heard much criticism of Trump $12B subsidy to US farmers to offset the tariffs that he instituted for unclear reasons. And keep in mind that the "family farm" with Billy, Lizzie and the white picket fence disappeared years ago, those subsidies will go to large agricultural corporations.
The US has over 700 military bases in 120+ countries, is economically dominant, yet to some (on these pages and elsewhere) the US is under siege from the EU, Canada, or whoever. Not only is this not plausible, it's borderline irrational.
Have you noticed that whatever Trump does, or says he's going to do, or says he's going to do then promptly forgets about, no matter how self-contradictory, there is always some excuse for why what he says or does is the correct thing to do. It's religion more than anything else, isn't it? Most public discussion occurs at the level of the neighbourhood bar talk, after 6 beers.
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Well the choice was Trump or looking and listening to that fat a$$ shreiking and cackling witch for four maybe eight years.
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Well the choice was Trump or looking and listening to that fat a$$ shreiking and cackling witch for four maybe eight years.
I think you’re sort of kidding, but far too many people cast their votes on this exact basis.
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I think you’re sort of kidding, but far too many people cast their votes on this exact basis.
No I'm not kidding. Americans had a choice. I wasn't going to vote for the corrupt Clintons. My choice in the Republican nomination side was not for Trump but for Bush for his experience and demeanor and name, or Rubio for his youth and ability to debate well, or Kasich for his down-to-earth common sense, or Cruz for his conservativeness but there was an icky factor with him, Christie for his toughness similar to Trumps. I couldn't listen to Trump, still can't.
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No I'm not kidding. Americans had a choice. I wasn't going to vote for the corrupt Clintons. My choice in the Republican nomination side was not for Trump but for Bush for his experience and demeanor and name, or Rubio for his youth and ability to debate well, or Kasich for his down-to-earth common sense, or Cruz for his conservativeness but there was an icky factor with him, Christie for his toughness similar to Trumps. I couldn't listen to Trump, still can't.
Are you saying you don't like Trump? You have previously gave the impression you were a big fan of him.
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So, the best the great US of A could come up with was a fat a$$ shreiking and cackling witch or a racist, misogynistic and narcissistic a$$?
Sounds rather like the UK.
;-)
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...Are you saying you don't like Trump? You have previously gave the impression you were a big fan of him.
Don't know about Alan K, though I presume he does belong to the same group, but NOBODY likes Trump, not even his supporters. What people support is not the man, but his policy directions.
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So, the best the great US of A could come up with was a fat a$$ shreiking and cackling witch or a racist, misogynistic and narcissistic a$$?
Facts vs. opinion (aka fake news):
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Except that's a small percentage of the population...
Irrelevant argument. How is that different from previous elections or from other democracies? In all those cases, the percentage of those voting is usually way smaller than the percentage of eligible voters.
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No I'm not kidding. Americans had a choice. I wasn't going to vote for the corrupt Clintons. My choice in the Republican nomination side was not for Trump but for Bush for his experience and demeanor and name, or Rubio for his youth and ability to debate well, or Kasich for his down-to-earth common sense, or Cruz for his conservativeness but there was an icky factor with him, Christie for his toughness similar to Trumps. I couldn't listen to Trump, still can't.
Are you saying you don't like Trump? You have previously gave the impression you were a big fan of him.
No I kind of like him now. Sort of like a scar you get. At first, the cut bled and hurt. Then you get a scar that you can show off. :) Does that make sense?
Actually I'm impressed with Trump's toughness, how he can move the process along pretty quickly, how he can take a punch and give back two, his resiliency, his ability to simplify the issue and act decisively, his patriotism and willingness to fight for America, and keeping to his campaign promises. I love it when he tweaks the nose of the old-line republican establishment, their holier-than-thou conceitful thinking that their sh!t doesn't stink. The Democrats are a lost cause. In the old days they were liberal but at least stood by America. Now they're willing to destroy it to gain power. They're a disgrace.
I don;t like his pettiness and sensitivity but that goes along with his punching back hard. He's not a good speaker and often scrambles his words unlike polished politicians. Of course, that helps him with average guys on the street. I don;t like when he demeans people, calling them names, etc.
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Irrelevant argument. How is that different from previous elections or from other democracies? In all those cases, the percentage of those voting is usually way smaller than the percentage of eligible voters.
We're actually pretty bad at it, compared to most places.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/21/u-s-voter-turnout-trails-most-developed-countries/
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Irrelevant argument. How is that different from previous elections or from other democracies? In all those cases, the percentage of those voting is usually way smaller than the percentage of eligible voters.
Which makes our electoral system with popular majorities by state far better than systems that rely only on the popular vote across a country. There's a definitive winner. Trump won 304 electoral votes to Hillary's 227.
or Trump 57%, Hillary 43%. A substantial and impressive margin especially when you consider the pundits had predicted the opposite to happen. They predicted Hillary to get 322 votes. http://time.com/4561625/electoral-college-predictions/ (http://time.com/4561625/electoral-college-predictions/)
Makes the argument about Russian collusion even more sillier. The electoral system forces majorities in most circumstances rather than pluralities. In parliamentary systems, the prime minister often wins with only a small plurality of votes. In America, you get a clear cut choice. And a clear cut winner.
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Don't know about Alan K, though I presume he does belong to the same group, but NOBODY likes Trump, not even his supporters. What people support is not the man, but his policy directions.
I do wish more people *actually* knew what those positions were, what they mean, and how they impact their own (and there fest of their fellow citizens') future. I can see (I can even MAKE) an argument for many of the policies that are being advanced (deregulation, reductions in corporate taxation, etc.) but my complaint is that the decisions and particularly the implementation are seemingly being done with insufficient forethought, planning or analysis of outcomes, but are instead geared toward soundbites and headlines that register with a base that cares more about angering liberals than policy.
That's a bad thing.
Then there's Trump himself - policy positions aside, I can't fathom that anyone actually thinks he's the guy you want in the big chair when a true crisis comes along.
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I do wish more people *actually* knew what those positions were, what they mean...
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But that's really, really BAD.
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But that's really, really BAD.
The quote I used is from a marketeer, but it is not far from the truth when it comes to politics. And I personally believe that it is more about gut feelings, rather than beliefs, though those exist as well. Most people do not have the time or desire for deep analysis of complex issues. They rely on headlines, common sense and gut feeling. And stereotypes (which exist for a reason). Now, with fake news all over, whether as fake fake news or really fake news (and precisely because they can't distinguish them anymore), most people haver resorted to common sense and gut feelings. And stereotypes.
Now, most reasonable people would agree that common sense does not always makes sense, or that stereotypes are not applicable in all cases, or that gut feelings might get it wrong. And yet, most people prefer shortcuts to deep analysis. Then again, even deep analysis does not always produce an actionable result, but mostly ends in a "on one hand, and on the other hand..." type of paralysis.
Sometimes, the Gordian knot parable is the solution. Or the Hercules' stables fable.
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Well the choice was Trump or looking and listening to that fat a$$ shreiking and cackling witch for four maybe eight years.
Oh irony of ironies. Change 'witch' to 'man' and you have the perfect description of our President.
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Irrelevant argument. How is that different from previous elections or from other democracies? In all those cases, the percentage of those voting is usually way smaller than the percentage of eligible voters.
It's a mixed bag as this Pew Research study (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/21/u-s-voter-turnout-trails-most-developed-countries/) shows. Some countries have a very high relative turnout. The most puzzling number to me is Switzerland where under 40% of the voting population actually voted. Maybe the Swiss are so content that they don't need to vote.
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The quote I used is from a marketeer, but it is not far from the truth when it comes to politics. And I personally believe that it is more about gut feelings, rather than beliefs, though those exist as well. Most people do not have the time or desire for deep analysis of complex issues. They rely on headlines, common sense and gut feeling. And stereotypes (which exist for a reason). Now, with fake news all over, whether as fake fake news or really fake news (and precisely because they can't distinguish them anymore), most people haver resorted to common sense and gut feelings. And stereotypes.
Now, most reasonable people would agree that common sense does not always makes sense, or that stereotypes are not applicable in all cases, or that gut feelings might get it wrong. And yet, most people prefer shortcuts to deep analysis. Then again, even deep analysis does not always produce an actionable result, but mostly ends in a "on one hand, and on the other hand..." type of paralysis.
Sometimes, the Gordian knot parable is the solution. Or the Hercules' stables fable.
He may not be Alexander, but Trump is a Gordian knot kind of guy.
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It's a mixed bag as this Pew Research study (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/21/u-s-voter-turnout-trails-most-developed-countries/) shows. Some countries have a very high relative turnout. The most puzzling number to me is Switzerland where under 40% of the voting population actually voted. Maybe the Swiss are so content that they don't need to vote.
I think it may be because of the electoral system in America and winner takes all by state. Why would a Republican bother to vote in democrat majority California? Or a Democrat voting in republican majority Wyoming? It's a waste of time.
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Well the choice was Trump or looking and listening to that fat a$$ shreiking and cackling witch for four maybe eight years.
That is not acceptable language, Alan. Public warning.
Oh irony of ironies. Change 'witch' to 'man' and you have the perfect description of our President.
Nor is that, even if it is merely an echo.
Jeremy
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That is not acceptable language, Alan. Public warning.
Nor is that, even if it is merely an echo.
Jeremy
Thank you.
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That is not acceptable language, Alan. Public warning.
Nor is that, even if it is merely an echo.
Jeremy
Sorry Jeremy.
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Why would you vote if yours is for a minority in your electorate? Because your vote is your only input - people have died around the world to fight for the right to vote. We have a national clean-up day where I live and even small children take part picking up what little rubbish they can carry. Their individual effort is worthless and wouldn't be missed but they do it to do what a democracy makes possible- to take part.
Not to take part is an insult to all those who fought for democratic rights.
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Why would you vote if yours is for a minority in your electorate? Because your vote is your only input - people have died around the world to fight for the right to vote. We have a national clean-up day where I live and even small children take part picking up what little rubbish they can carry. Their individual effort is worthless and wouldn't be missed but they do it to do what a democracy makes possible- to take part.
Not to take part is an insult to all those who fought for democratic rights.
I do vote. In every election going back decades. I don't think any of my candidates have ever won. I've lived in very liberal democrat states and areas like NYC and New Jersey. :)
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Irrelevant argument. How is that different from previous elections or from other democracies? In all those cases, the percentage of those voting is usually way smaller than the percentage of eligible voters.
It was not an argument: it was a prelude for the rest of the post. One part without the other makes no argument - just a partial comment. It related directly to the part of the post remarking on the style that the man has: vulgar, not diplomatic and generally disgraceful. However, if that's how anyone wishes to see their country represented, then hey ho. Did the USA's Republican tribe expect a fibbing, fact-bending hooligan to represent it? Actually, by the mental gymnastics displayed here by some of his faithful, maybe they long ago gave up expecting even a veneer of class or dignity in public life.
Which isn't to suggest the alternative candidates offered anything much more edifying. On either side.
:-)
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Irrelevant argument. How is that different from previous elections or from other democracies? In all those cases, the percentage of those voting is usually way smaller than the percentage of eligible voters.
Other democracies?
The lowest voter turnout in Australia for federal elections since 1925 is 91% and the lowest effective participation rate was over 80%.
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/research/files/voter-turnout-2016.pdf
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Phil, the last thing I expected from you was fake news.
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Phil, the last thing I expected from you was fake news.
Screen Shot 2018-07-26 at 3.18.32 PM.png (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=125885.0;attach=181581) (41.34 kB, 705x162 - viewed 4 times.)
"Stop twisting my arm. I know I got to vote. But I can't vote for that egotist Trump or Crooked Hillary. Take me off to jail."
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"Stop twisting my arm. I know I got to vote. But I can't vote for that egotist Trump or Crooked Hillary. Take me off to jail."
You always have the option of voting for a variety of third party candidates (remember Ralph Nader had over 97K votes in Florida; had he not been on the ballot, we would have not had Bush 2 as President) as well as writing in a candidate. You can even vote for yourself if you think you would do a better job.
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You always have the option of voting for a variety of third party candidates (remember Ralph Nader had over 97K votes in Florida; had he not been on the ballot, we would have not had Bush 2 as President) as well as writing in a candidate. You can even vote for yourself if you think you would do a better job.
Well, if I could get you to vote for me, I'd have two votes. :)
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Phil, the last thing I expected from you was fake news.
How is that fake? It's showing that if you make voting compulsory you get better turnout, better participation, and low informal voting. You said low turn out and "minority majorities" were the way it is - I'm showing it doesn't have to be, and I'm providing real evidence instead of just rhetoric and party-line nonsense.
The fine for not voting isn't high, but it's the concept. We also offer sausage-sizzles on polling day, and that must have a significantly positive impact!
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Well the choice was Trump or looking and listening to that fat a$$ shreiking and cackling witch for four maybe eight years.
That is the most misogynistic sentance I've ever read in these pages.
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That is the most misogynistic sentance I've ever read in these pages.
I thought I was just being insulting. But you're right that I shouldn't have posted it and had already apologized in an earlier post. I'm sorry you missed it.
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That is the most misogynistic sentance I've ever read in these pages.
Facts can be misogynistic?
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Facts can be misogynistic?
Try to answer this one for yourself. You can do it if you put in a little effort.
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Facts can be misogynistic?
That's not appropriate either, Slobodan.
Jeremy
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That's not appropriate either, Slobodan.
Jeremy
Sorry, Jeremy, I disagree. Describing a presidential candidate as “shrieking,” for instance, has nothing to do with misogyny. There was once a male presidential candidate, Howard Dean, whose shrieking cost him a nomination.
In Hillary’s case, all those clearly exaggerated attempts to look jovial, common, humorous, “just like us,” ended up just adding to the impression of her most people already had as insincere, and detached, to say the least. And once again, that has nothing to do with misogyny. Another male presidential candidate tried the same, with the same opposite effect [Al Gore, with the (in)famous 15 minute on-stage French kiss of his wife].
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I'm staying out of this one. :)
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Sorry, Jeremy, I disagree. Describing a presidential candidate as “shrieking,” for instance, has nothing to do with misogyny. There was once a male presidential candidate, Howard Dean, whose shrieking cost him a nomination.
In Hillary’s case, all those clearly exaggerated attempts to look jovial, common, humorous, “just like us,” ended up just adding to the impression of her most people already had as insincere, and detached, to say the least. And once again, that has nothing to do with misogyny. Another male presidential candidate tried the same, with the same opposite effect [Al Gore, with the (in)famous 15 minute on-stage French kiss of his wife].
There was rather more to Alan's offensive comment than just that one adjective; and you apparently endorsed all of it.
Jeremy
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Slobodan: Please stop defending me. I appreciate it but it's OK. I don't consider what I said misogyny. I love women. But my words were insulting and I apologized and have moved on. Thanks again.
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Sorry, Jeremy, I disagree. Describing a presidential candidate as “shrieking,” for instance, has nothing to do with misogyny. There was once a male presidential candidate, Howard Dean, whose shrieking cost him a nomination.
Just imagine at the time what would have happened if he was caught on tape, admitting to grabbing (assaulting) women's genitals!
The current misogynist president of the US did of course.
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I love women.
We've heard that line before:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/08/21-times-donald-trump-has-assured-us-he-respects-women/?utm_term=.1e5d36b94be8 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/08/21-times-donald-trump-has-assured-us-he-respects-women/?utm_term=.1e5d36b94be8)
At an Oct. 9, 2016, debate after the "Access Hollywood" video was released: "I have great respect for women. Nobody has more respect for women than I do. I've said things that, frankly, you hear these things I said. And I was embarrassed by it. But I have tremendous respect for women. And women have respect for me."
What he says and what he does differ.... Don't follow in his examples. ;D
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There was rather more to Alan's offensive comment than just that one adjective; and you apparently endorsed all of it.
I did.
And do not see a problem with Alan's comments. Here is why:
We have several currently running threads, and many more in the past, in which the current President is exposed to all kinds of insults, from comments on the size of his hands and manhood, to reposting the severing of his (fake) head. All kinds of epithets freely fly around: idiot, mentally unfit, fascist, etc. As a supporter of free speech, I have no problem with that either.
But, hey, mention something relatively mild and mostly factual about a female presidential candidate, and all hell breaks lose: pc warriors start intervening in a righteous rage, using the usual weapons of mass distraction: misogyny, racism, blah, blah, blah. And I do have a problem with that.
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Slobodan: Please stop defending me. I appreciate it but it's OK. I don't consider what I said misogyny. I love women. But my words were insulting and I apologized and have moved on. Thanks again.
I am not necessarily defending you personally, but free speech. Also commenting against the double standard, as I explained in my post above.
Would anyone else here that insults the President on a daily basis be so gentlemanly as well and apologize?
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<Draws up a chair>
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Would anyone else here that insults the President on a daily basis be so gentlemanly as well and apologize?
You miss the point. The issue is not that you insult Clinton, it's that you insult women.
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You miss the point. The issue is not that you insult Clinton, it's that you insult women.
Exactly how are things specifically said about Clinton insulting all women? Are things said about Trump insulting all men?
You bring up a point that is exactly what I was arguing about: one can not say anything negative about someone who belongs to protected species, as it will be immediately interpreted as against all members of the protected species.
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Exactly how are things specifically said about Clinton insulting all women? Are things said about Trump insulting all men?
You bring up a point that is exactly what I was arguing about: one can not say anything negative about someone who belongs to protected species, as it will be immediately interpreted as against all members of the protected species.
Because you use insulting language which is specifically directed to her as a woman, just as it would be unacceptable to call Obama by the n- word.
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Because you use insulting language which is specifically directed to her as a woman, just as it would be unacceptable to call Obama by the n- word.
But it is acceptable to discuss Trump's hair (the loss of which, and combing over, is predominantly male-specific). Or the size of his manhood, exclusively male-specific (with my apologies for pre-op transgenders)? Or the size of his beer belly, again mostly a male-specific problem?
Nothing that was said about Clinton in Alan's post could not be verified: she did shriek and cackle, there are videos to prove that. And, as I already mentioned, there were male presidential candidates who were criticized for that. Or for trying to dispel the perception they are wooden and devoid of human feelings (Gore).
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<Grabs the popcorn>
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<Grabs the popcorn>
Better that than the pussy.
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As thinking, at the time, that I had no dog in the race, I disliked Hillie because of her patently fake "pointing" at space and beaming great big smiles of recognition at it.
Never did I imagine that I should have been personally concerned about the transatlantic circus, but was I mistaken! The guy that moved in has sent shock waves around the world, not because he is "making America great again" which everybody thought it already was, but because his absolutely crazy deportment has undermined confidence in the social/world order, which on top of 2008 was the very last thing this planet needed.
The politics of the backwoods does not translate well into formula for international co-existence.
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I am not necessarily defending you personally, but free speech. Also commenting against the double standard, as I explained in my post above.
Would anyone else here that insults the President on a daily basis be so gentlemanly as well and apologize?
Of course there is a double standard and there are restrictions on 'free speech' here on this forum. Some of us have been upbraided by Jeremy for certain comments and we manage to put that behind us and not go into forbidden territory.
Personally I don't think it is insulting to call the President a liar. Only those who believe in alternative facts would think otherwise. this is the primary reason that the world is laughing at us. Anyone who has traveled overseas within the last 14 months knows this to be true.
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Personally I don't think it is insulting to call the President a liar.
Certainly when the overwhelming facts show not only is he a massive liar, but one that knows more about lying than all the liars! :'(
Only those who believe in alternative facts would think otherwise.
They believe the lies and ignore the facts. And then tell those who call out the lies, fake news. So we have lies and hypocrisy living hand in hand.
his is the primary reason that the world is laughing at us.
Or crying as the days go on....
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Nothing that was said about Clinton in Alan's post could not be verified:
Really? She is a witch?
Either you're a troll, or you're so far from understanding the subject that it makes no sense to attempt to discuss it with you.
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Because you use insulting language which is specifically directed to her as a woman, just as it would be unacceptable to call Obama by the n- word.
which was the insulting word - "fat" or "shrieking"?
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I am not necessarily defending you personally, but free speech. Also commenting against the double standard, as I explained in my post above.
Would anyone else here that insults the President on a daily basis be so gentlemanly as well and apologize?
I agree with your point about double standards. But I shouldn't have gotten down into the sewer with them.
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I'm staying out of this one. :)
The history of that post and those that follow (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=125885.msg1058335#msg1058335) (thus far), indicate that is largely if not totally 'fake news'. ;)
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If the world is laughing it's because it's reading this thread.
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If the world is laughing it's because it's reading this thread.
Said the pot to the kettle...
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Better that than the pussy.
If you are gay.
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Said the pot to the kettle...
And speaking for everyone in the world no less, a sign of absurdity or comedy (without the required ;) :D ;D ) to indicate it's not to be taken seriously for those who haven't been reading such posts for awhile and know better. ;)
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Really? She is a witch?...
You have not been following the thread carefully and the context in which I used "nothing that was said...". Earlier in the thread, I posted a screenshot where I clearly included "witch" into opinions, not facts. Then I asked in another post if facts can be considered misogynistic. Therefore, my subsequent post was about facts that can be verified by videos, which clearly excludes "witch."
I am reposting the screenshot, for your convenience:
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If you are gay.
Hey, that's pure Trump.
He'd be proud of you.
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You have not been following the thread carefully and the context in which I used "nothing that was said...". Earlier in the thread, I posted a screenshot where I clearly included "witch" into opinions, not facts. Then I asked in another post if facts can be considered misogynistic. Therefore, my subsequent post was about facts that can be verified by videos, which clearly excludes "witch."
What is a fact? Your use of a particular word to describe someone's behaviour is also evidence of your misogyny. An example is calling Obama a "chattering monkey face". One is clealy racist, and the other is racist in that context.
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... Your use of a particular word to describe someone's behaviour is also evidence of your misogyny...
Would you be so kind to provide an Index Verborum Prohibitorum so that I know which words not to use?
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The history of that post and those that follow (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=125885.msg1058335#msg1058335) (thus far), indicate that is largely if not totally 'fake news'. ;)
No comment. I'm sworn to secrecy. :)
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No comment. I'm sworn to secrecy. :)
More fake news attached to a comment. :o
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More fake news attached to a comment. :o
I'll have to check the tape to see what I really said. I don't recall at this time. :)
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I'll have to check the tape to see what I really said. I don't recall at this time. :)
To be expected (more fake news) :-\ !
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And speaking for everyone in the world no less, a sign of absurdity or comedy (without the required ;) :D ;D ) to indicate it's not to be taken seriously for those who haven't been reading such posts for awhile and know better. ;)
Oh, it's to be taken seriously, Andrew.
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Oh, it's to be taken seriously, Andrew.
Failed!
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I am not necessarily defending you personally, but free speech. Also commenting against the double standard, as I explained in my post above.
Would anyone else here that insults the President on a daily basis be so gentlemanly as well and apologize?
Find anything I've said about Trump that you think is insulting and I'll demonstrate that it's true and based on his actual performance rather than an innate characteristic such as gender. In other words, I'm playing the ball and not the man.
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...I'm playing the ball and not the man.
Kudos to you. Then again, I did not single you out personally, did I?
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Kudos to you. Then again, I did not single you out personally, did I?
You have quoted terms that I have used.
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Would you be so kind to provide an Index Verborum Prohibitorum so that I know which words not to use?
Doesn't really work like that. For example, calling someone a "big-nosed Serb" may be rude, but it's not necessarily racist; "big-nosed Jew" is another matter.
Might seem complicated, but decent people will see the distinction.
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Doesn't really work like that. For example, calling someone a "big-nosed Serb" may be rude, but it's not necessarily racist; "big-nosed Jew" is another matter.
Might seem complicated, but decent people will see the distinction.
"Well he has got a big nose..."
https://youtu.be/JAVvEQvnDm0
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Insofar as it ever did, this thread now contributes nothing to the sum of human knowledge or entertainment. Enough.
Jeremy