Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Schewe on June 29, 2018, 02:00:06 am

Title: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Schewe on June 29, 2018, 02:00:06 am
As a lover of the National Parks I'm very disappointed at what is happening to them under the current admin...particularly for the idiot in charge of the Dept of the Interior, Ryan Zinke #sad

Hey, Ryan Zinke: You’ve Got Your Ranger Hat on Backward (https://www.outsideonline.com/2301681/hey-ryan-zinke-youve-got-your-ranger-hat-backwards)

(http://schewephoto.com/misc/zinke-hat_h.jpg)

Quote
Above is a picture of Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke posing for a photo last week to promote a new children’s version of the National Park Service passport book. So far, so good, right? Well, upon closer examination, you might notice he’s wearing his hat backward.

(http://schewephoto.com/misc/zinke-hat-zoom.jpg)

Why does this admittedly small detail matter? According to the NPS’s official uniform regulations, “The ranger hat is the most important, recognized and respected symbol associated with the NPS, and should be worn with pride and care.” (The bolding comes straight from the NPS.) 

(https://www.outsideonline.com/sites/default/files/styles/img_850-width_flex-height/public/2018/04/26/zinke-hat-studio.jpg?itok=rqMT0xkQ)

Here's the hat in it's correct orientation. You'd think the USNPS embossing would be hard to miss, and hard to get backwards, right? "The hatband is to be worn with the USNPS logo centered in the front," read the Park Service's uniform regs. The brass buttons should be over the wearer's left shoulder. (Smithsonian Museum)

“Our uniform represents our pride and commitment to serving our country by protecting our most cherished public lands,” says a park ranger I spoke with on Thursday. (He asked not to be named for fear of reprisal from the DOI.) “If I posted to the Internet a photo out of uniform and wearing my ranger hat backwards, I would at the very least receive a verbal thrashing from my chief.”

But that's Trump's MO...hire putzes and idiots or just downright evil people....ain't America Great?

And here's where it gets weird...

Canadian company moves to mine on lands cut from monument (https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Canadian-company-moves-to-mine-on-lands-cut-from-13018211.php)

Quote
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A Canadian company's plans to mine for copper and cobalt on Utah lands that were cut from the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument by President Donald Trump are angering conservation groups that are suing to keep the lands under monument protection.

Conservation and paleontology groups called attention this week to plans announced earlier this month by Glacier Lake Resources Inc. The company said in a news release it would begin surface exploration this summer and that drilling will be permitted shortly.

But officials from the U.S. Bureau of Land Management and Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining told the Deseret News that the company hasn't filed any paperwork seeking permission to start operations.

From this Press Release, they are serious...
ACQUISITION OF COLT MESA COPPER-COBALT PROPERTY, UTAH, SURFACE GRAB SAMPLES RETURN 0.88% Copper and 2.31% Cobalt. (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b0755ac365f02104c1b9097/t/5b2129fb2b6a285cc27de8f2/1528900092042/NRColtMesaAcquisition13June2018Final.pdf)

So, we're gonna make America great again by letting Canadian company mines what was supposed to be a National Park?

Really?

-edited to fix typo-
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: OmerV on June 29, 2018, 07:04:58 am
And he’s posing with a stuffed bear. An omen of what’s in store for the parks and monuments under his “guidance.”

Better get those cameras out into the wild now. In the future we may just have giant landscape dioramas to remember what nature was like in the New Great America.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 29, 2018, 07:16:07 am
Inspector General to Review Land Deal between Zinke and Halliburton Chairman (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2018/06/28/inspector-general-will-review-zinkes-involvement-in-land-deal-backed-by-halliburtons-chairman/?utm_term=.7c7bd27afbfd)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 09:21:48 am
Same old problem, Alan. It's the Washington Post, and they actually want me to pay money to read their fake news. If you'll pay for me I might at least glance at it.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 09:26:32 am
As a lover of the National Parks I'm very disappointed at what is happening to them under the current admin...particularly for the idiot in charge of the Dept of the Interior, Ryan Zinke #sad

Absolutely, Jeff. Wearing your hat backward is at least as dangerous to our national security as keeping top secret, limited access material on an unsecured server. We probably should prosecute the guy for wearing his hat backward.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 10:49:48 am
Absolutely, Jeff. Wearing your hat backward is at least as dangerous to our national security as keeping top secret, limited access material on an unsecured server. We probably should prosecute the guy for wearing his hat backward.
The big difference is one woman knew what she was doing (nothing illegal) the other guy doesn’t (nothing illegal).
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 10:58:59 am
The big difference is one woman knew what she was doing (nothing illegal). . .

Nothing illegal? Ask the people in the military who've been prosecuted for security violations with classified documents a lot less egregious than those, Andrew, whether or not that's illegal.

When I see a statement like that the Duke of Wellington's famous riposte echoes in my mind: "If you believe that, madam, you will believe anything."
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2018, 11:04:52 am
Oh, dear! Oh, the horror!

What’s next for the Coffee Corner (and breaking news)... mismatched socks?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on June 29, 2018, 11:07:17 am
Same old problem, Alan. It's the Washington Post, and they actually want me to pay money to read their fake news. If you'll pay for me I might at least glance at it.

Predictable as ever, Ray pops up to defend the indefensible. Hell, if a conservative were shown to be ripping children from their mothers he'd find a way to make it Obama's fault.

Oh...

Hang on a mo...
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 11:15:44 am
Nothing illegal?
For Hillary, those are the facts you cannot wrap your head around like your inability to understand what climate change is.  (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124501.msg1052544#msg1052544)
Quote
Ask the people in the military who've been prosecuted for security violations with classified documents a lot less egregious than those, Andrew, whether or not that's illegal.
Should I ask those that WERE prosecuted or those who were not? Like your misunderstandings of change (climate for sure), there's a difference between being prosecuted and being 'charged' and found not guilty, as we saw with Hillary.
Next you'll tell us, people are guilty until proven innocent if you're a Democrat, but if you're Trump (or people on his campaign who are facing prosecution), you're innocent and shouldn't even face a trial. 
All why convinced that anything written you haven't read yet, is fake simply because of the source. Which is why it appears, so many don't take you seriously.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 11:16:49 am
Predictable as ever, Ray pops up to defend the indefensible. Hell, if a conservative were shown to be ripping children from their mothers he'd find a way to make it Obama's fault.
Expected behavior for those in the 'bubble'.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 11:20:47 am
. . .there's a difference between being prosecuted and being 'charged' and found not guilty, as we saw with Hillary.

Really? When was Hillary charged, Andrew? And by which grand jury? She never was charged and so never was found not guilty. On the other hand, we actually saw the evidence: the discovery of classified material on her unsecured server. For anybody but Hillary that'd be a felony.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 11:37:57 am
Really? When was Hillary charged, Andrew?
Exactly! No need.

Horowitz’s report also determined that Lynch’s lapse in judgment did not grant Comey license to make his own recommendation public. In his public remarks at the time, Comey called Clinton “extremely careless” with classified information, but said there was no basis for charging her with a crime. From the IG report:

We concluded that Comey’s unilateral announcement was inconsistent with Department policy and violated long-standing Department practice and protocol by, among other things, criticizing Clinton’s uncharged conduct. We also found that Comey usurped the authority of the Attorney General, and inadequately and incompletely described the legal position of Department prosecutors.

Here's a ULR you'll be happy to nav to as it fits inside your bubble:
https://www.infowars.com/the-history-of-hillarys-crimes/
Rubbish but enjoy.  ;D
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 11:43:06 am
Horowitz’s report also determined that Lynch’s lapse in judgment did not grant Comey license to make his own recommendation public. In his public remarks at the time, Comey called Clinton “extremely careless” with classified information, but said there was no basis for charging her with a crime. From the IG report:

Exactly. Comey was way outside his job description. I saw the exchange several times. Gowdy made clear what the law said, and Comey brushed past that and ignored Gowdy's statement and the law.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 11:53:54 am
Exactly. Comey was way outside his job description. I saw the exchange several times. Gowdy made clear what the law said, and Comey brushed past that and ignored Gowdy's statement and the law.
And yet, no charges. From anyone since. For obvious reasons to some.
I saw Gowdy yesterday in session, grilling the FBI chef, he didn't ask a question in his 5 minutes provided to him! He grandstanded again. He told us the Mueller investigation has gone on too long (13 months) while he saw no issue going massively longer chairing the Benghazi investigation a couple years Another hypocrite you really shouldn't be referencing to.   
http://theweek.com/speedreads/782008/trey-gowdy-who-headed-benghazi-investigation-more-than-2-years-claims-mueller-taking-long (http://theweek.com/speedreads/782008/trey-gowdy-who-headed-benghazi-investigation-more-than-2-years-claims-mueller-taking-long)
Free, but you'll call it fake news.... Even though the facts are factual!
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 29, 2018, 11:55:49 am
Predictable as ever, Ray pops up to defend the indefensible. Hell, if a conservative were shown to be ripping children from their mothers he'd find a way to make it Obama's fault.

Oh...

Hang on a mo...

Jeremy, I have already firmly indicated that that topic is now absolutely off limits. Consider this a final warning: raise it again and you will be banned.

Jeremy
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 12:02:25 pm
And yet, no charges. From anyone since. For obvious reasons. . .

I'll certainly agree the reasons are obvious, but that may change. Gowdy didn't need to ask questions. We all know the score. The top of the justice department may be facing a summer cleaning.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 12:18:27 pm
I'll certainly agree the reasons are obvious, but that may change.
And that may not change. IF and when it does change, ping us.
Gowdy didn't need to ask questions because his role wasn't to get answers.
You know the score you wish to believe, speaking for everyone ("we all know the score") shows desperate posting bias, an absurd statement. When the 'game is over', when perhaps Mueller provides his report, more of us will know the score. Until then, people you Gowdy who don't know will not cease from providing a report to his base as we saw yesterday while like you, ignoring the hypocrisy of saying the investigation has gone on too long. As for a summer cleaning, that's possible. As we've seen, this administration doesn't act as if they have done nothing wrong, they act like they know they've done something wrong; just my personal observation. When the data is provided (data some here will ignore before it is provided), those of us with open minds will examine it. It's absolutely possible Trump and his staff did nothing wrong. And if Mueller provides that, I'll gladly accept it. IF he's allowed to finish his work. That so many don't want him to, shows a bias that appears to be the agenda of the guilty.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 29, 2018, 12:40:01 pm
Really? When was Hillary charged, Andrew? And by which grand jury? She never was charged and so never was found not guilty. On the other hand, we actually saw the evidence: the discovery of classified material on her unsecured server. For anybody but Hillary that'd be a felony.
Colin Powell also used an unsecured email server during his tenure as Secretary of State.  While it was the subject of several Washington Post stories, this LINK (https://democrats-oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/documents/DOS-HOGR-09022016-000001%20to%20000003.pdf) should pass the "paywall test."
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 29, 2018, 12:42:04 pm
Back to the OP. It was easy to fix the hat position. And nobody got hurt.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2018, 12:55:56 pm
... the hypocrisy of saying the investigation has gone on too long...

A minor detail: Gowdy did not have the legal power that a Special Counsel, like Mueller has.

Quote
...his committee — a legislative committee — is powerless to obtain search warrants and coerce the physical surrender of evidence... Congress has no authority to conduct criminal investigations or to seize evidence... Congress has no power to seize the evidence the subpoena seeks or to indict the perjurious official... Congress has no standing to appear in court on behalf of the United States and to seek search warrants. Nor does it have a police force for the execution of warrants...

Source: https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/03/dont-blame-gowdy-andrew-c-mccarthy/
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 01:01:43 pm
A minor detail: Gowdy did not have the legal power that a Special Counsel, like Mueller has.
Nor should he. That's why it's called a special counsel and it's supposed to be non partisan (unlike Gowdy), even if you believe the lie it's filled with 13 angry democrats. Like the FBI and other such bodies, both democrats and republicans should and do work there but they should do their work without their political views affecting their work. And yes, two FBI agents exchanged text messages showing supreme bias, but as yet, no evidence those two affected the yet to be provided outcome of the investigation. And yes, they should be removed and were removed from the case.
EVERYONE (and I can speak for everyone in this case) has some bias and beliefs. The differences should be if their personal bias affects work that is supposed to be impartial. If we don't believe that's possible, we are all doomed. 
None of this removes Gowdy's hypocrisy FWIW. Not when you consider how long his and Muellers investigations took/are taking and the importance of each!
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 01:47:47 pm
Colin Powell also used an unsecured email server during his tenure as Secretary of State.  While it was the subject of several Washington Post stories, this LINK (https://democrats-oversight.house.gov/sites/democrats.oversight.house.gov/files/documents/DOS-HOGR-09022016-000001%20to%20000003.pdf) should pass the "paywall test."

Colin didn't have a server with classified material on it, Alan. He had a computer that he used to communicate with others. I gather that in spite of your "scientific" background you don't understand what a server is. In any case I don't remember classified information being involved, and I can't find any reference to classified in this document. But Colin screwed up, and knew he screwed up. He didn't try to pretend he didn't.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 01:52:43 pm
Colin didn't have a server with classified material on it, Alan. He had a computer that he used to communicate with others. I gather that in spite of your "scientific" background you don't understand what a server is. In any case I don't remember classified information being involved, and I can't find any reference to classified in this document. But Colin screwed up, and knew he screwed up. He didn't try to pretend he didn't.
Colin Powell told Clinton he bypassed official servers to email foreign leaders “without going through State Department servers”, a seven-year-old email exchange reveals.
Powell's statement came after a top Democrat released an email Powell sent Clinton in early 2009 describing his use of personal communication devices in State's secure executive suite despite warnings from security officials that such use could jeopardize classified information.

Sever, email from computer, what's the difference IF as indicated above, such use could jeopardize classified info? Answer, none.
Now how's Trump doing communicating without a secured cell phone?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 29, 2018, 01:55:42 pm
All email goes through a server of some description. It’s how email works. You send it from you computer and it goes to a server. Classified documents are supposed to go through a secure server. If Colin Sen a n email, which he did, he used a server.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 01:57:29 pm
All email goes through a server of some description. It’s how email works. You send it from you computer and it goes to a server. Classified documents are supposed to go through a secure server. If Colin Sen a n email, which he did, he used a server.
All true expect when you use such a communication device inside the political unreality bubble which some here apparently are doing and more....  ;D
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 01:59:59 pm
Colin Powell told Clinton he bypassed official servers to email foreign leaders “without going through State Department servers”, a seven-year-old email exchange reveals.
Powell's statement came after a top Democrat released an email Powell sent Clinton in early 2009 describing his use of personal communication devices in State's secure executive suite despite warnings from security officials that such use could jeopardize classified information.

The document Alan linked to made it clear that Colin understood the danger. But it wasn't even close to the same thing as storing top secret, limited access material on an unsecured server in a john. That's a felony. Clear as day.

Oh, and since Hillary wasn't indicted and wasn't found not guilty as you seem to think she was, she's still not in the clear. History may yet catch up with her.

Quote
Sever, email from computer, what's the difference IF as indicated above, such use could jeopardize classified info? Answer, none.

In other words, you haven't a clue what a server is -- especially one hidden in a john.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 29, 2018, 02:07:43 pm
The document Alan linked to made it clear that Colin understood the danger. But it wasn't even close to the same thing as storing top secret, limited access material on an unsecured server in a john. That's a felony. Clear as day.
Here is a more in depth article from The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/08/colin-powell-hillary-clinton-email-state-department) that goes over other practices by Colin Powell.  I am especially amused by this, "Powell has previously admitted using a laptop on a private line and sending notes to ambassadors and foreign ministers via personal email, according to a report by the state department’s inspector general."  Nothing better than using the telephone system in the good old days of modems.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 02:08:42 pm
The document Alan linked to made it clear that Colin understood the danger. But it wasn't even close to the same thing as storing top secret, limited access material on an unsecured server in a john. That's a felony. Clear as day.
Perhaps to you. But then you're not a prosecutor are you? As such, you'll now tell us that the current powers to be agree with you (it's a felony as clear as day) but they are going to ignore all this. OR perhaps, your opinion is just that!
What's worse? That Colin didn't understand the 'dangers'?

Quote

Oh, and since Hillary wasn't indicted and wasn't found not guilty as you seem to think she was, she's still not in the clear.
Yes, that's how I process facts unlike some here. IF differing facts are provided whereby someone in the administration/Gov finds evidence she should be indicated, I'll of course change my mind. And that's the difference between us. I no more believe Hillary is due for indictment, let alone jail as I do believe it's true for Trump or even Manafort, because thus far, there's no evidence. You've made up your mind (Lock her up) and I simply refuse to use the same premeditated thought process as you do. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 02:09:57 pm
Here is a more in depth article from The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/08/colin-powell-hillary-clinton-email-state-department) that goes over other practices by Colin Powell.  I am especially amused by this, "Powell has previously admitted using a laptop on a private line and sending notes to ambassadors and foreign ministers via personal email, according to a report by the state department’s inspector general."  Nothing better than using the telephone system in the good old days of modems.

That occurred to me too, Alan, but Colin was Secretary of State during George W's administration. I don't remember using modems during that period.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 02:14:44 pm
I don't remember using modems during that period.
Therefore it must be impossible? George W entered office in 2001, 56K modems were introduced in 1998, so it's really not as inconceivable as you want us to believe (and some don't):
Meanwhile, how's that non secured cell phone of Trump working for you? I'll ask again.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 02:17:09 pm
Perhaps to you. But then you're not a prosecutor are you?

No, Andrew, I'm not a prosecutor, though I've administered non-judicial punishment to a few people and carried out Article 32 investigations. But I spent 26 years in the Air Force, got a top secret clearance in my third year, and got an increase in that clearance to specific limited access stuff for the last of my three combat-zone tours. I'm quite familiar with the laws surrounding classified information. You obviously aren't.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 02:18:37 pm
Therefore it must be impossible? George W entered office in 2001, 56K modems were introduced in 1998, so it's really not as inconceivable as you want us to believe (and some don't):
Meanwhile, how's that non secured cell phone of Trump working for you? I'll ask again.

Do you know the difference between a modem and a digital bridge?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 03:06:01 pm
Do you know the difference between a modem and a digital bridge?
Moot.
It is interesting to see how people's "minds work":
I don't recall using a Modem when George W was president, therefore, it isn't possible that Colin used one therefore, a reference that he did is fake news (or untrue, or shouldn’t be accepted as shown).
Scientists made a new measurement detecting the lowest temperature on the planet, therefore there is no climate change (incorrectly called Global Warming).
I've never met anyone named Russ Lewis. Therefore he doesn't exist. Therefore anything written here by someone named Russ Lewis is fake news. 
Quote
But I spent 26 years in the Air Force, got a top secret clearance in my third year, and got an increase in that clearance to specific limited access stuff for the last of my three combat-zone tours. I'm quite familiar with the laws surrounding classified information. You obviously aren't.
Fake news? OK, I will absolutely defer to your expertise about working in the Air Force. I have zero such experience. My wife holds a top secret clearance however (she works at LANL, behind the fence). I defer to her experience there too.
I haven't suggested you are not familiar with the laws surrounding classified info, only you are not familiar with the details of Hillary's case that dismisses what DOJ/FBI or whoever HAS decided, today and in the past, that she shouldn't be indicted. If you have evidence she should be indicted, you should contact the DOJ/FBI or whoever decides she should or shouldn’t be indicted.
I have no evidence Trump did anything wrong. If the time comes Mueller does, I have no reason not to believe him. If he finds him utterly innocent, I have no reason not to believe him.
BTW, if you really do exist, thank you for your service to this country.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 03:08:30 pm
In other words, you don't know the difference between a modem and a digital bridge.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: JoeKitchen on June 29, 2018, 03:08:51 pm
Interesting progression. 

We went from mocking someone for accidentally putting his hat on backwards, which for all intents and purposes looks exacting the same from any angle except for a small brass detail, to the differences between Colin Powell and HRC email practices, something I thought we got past back in Nov. 2016.

Totally natural and logical to me. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 03:10:52 pm
In other words, you don't know the difference between a modem and a digital bridge.
In other words, it's moot. Which means off topic. Which means you're using this as a distraction because it appears:The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument.



Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 03:13:23 pm
Interesting progression. 

We went from mocking someone for accidentally putting his hat on backwards, which for all intents and purposes looks exacting the same from any angle except for a small brass detail, to the differences between Colin Powell and HRC email practices, something I thought we go past back in Nov. 2016.
Well examine post #5, as to the origin of going OT (silly guy with silly hat) to HRC/Powell. It's the Coffee Corner, what else should we expect???
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 29, 2018, 07:20:20 pm
In other words, you don't know the difference between a modem and a digital bridge.

Do you, Russ?  It doesn't seem like it based on what you seem to be implying in the related scenario.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 29, 2018, 07:52:36 pm
In other words, you don't know the difference between a modem and a digital bridge.

I have never seen a product called digital bridge, so I only assume that they are much bigger than a modem.
Searching for a definition of digital bridge, I didn't find any, but learned that all bridge cameras are digital. I also found several companies with Digital Bridge in their name.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 29, 2018, 07:59:56 pm
Do you, Russ?  It doesn't seem like it based on what you seem to be implying in the related scenario.

Phil, if the age in your profile is correct I suspect you never dialed a number to which you wanted to connect your computer, listened for the modem tones, then put your phone handset into your local modem in order to make a computer connection. That's what the term "modem" refers to: modulate and demodulate tones. We used to make data transfers with actual tones sent down the phone line. Nowadays we use a digital bridge, which sends digital signal packets down the line outside the sound bandwidth of the phone. It's always connected. You no longer have to get tonal handshaking going before you can send and receive. You even can use your telephone while the transfer is going on. We still call the box we use as a digital bridge a "modem," but it's not a modem.

That explain it for you? I've forgotten exactly when we stopped using modems, but I did for a long time.

And Les, since your age is N/A I'm sure you never saw or heard a modem.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 08:05:43 pm
My first modem was 1200 baud if memory serves me. Maybe 600, those brain cells are gone. I recall how thrilled I was when I move to an ISDN line! It was fast. In those days.
Anyway, this is utterly off topic. The 'do you know the difference' is a rabbit hole you invented for a reason I can't understand, nor should I have to.

That occurred to me too, Alan, but Colin was Secretary of State during George W's administration. I don't remember using modems during that period.
Seems utterly off topic, and like we see with our president, a obvious distraction from the original point made that some here have forgotten due to the distraction so let's refocus:

Here is a more in depth article from The Guardian that goes over other practices by Colin Powell.  I am especially amused by this, "Powell has previously admitted using a laptop on a private line and sending notes to ambassadors and foreign ministers via personal email, according to a report by the state department’s inspector general."  Nothing better than using the telephone system in the good old days of modems.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: degrub on June 29, 2018, 08:09:52 pm
i thought the original point was about hat bands.
110 baud original.
or toggle switches for boot sequences into 8/16 bit registers.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 29, 2018, 08:11:04 pm
The big difference is one woman knew what she was doing (nothing illegal) the other guy doesn’t (nothing illegal).

Here's Comey' statement about Hillary's emails.  It's pretty condemning.  Maybe not as condemning as putting on a hat backwards, but pretty bad nonetheless. 

"...Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information.

For example, seven e-mail chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program level when they were sent and received. These chains involved Secretary Clinton both sending e-mails about those matters and receiving e-mails from others about the same matters. There is evidence to support a conclusion that any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position, or in the position of those government employees with whom she was corresponding about these matters, should have known that an unclassified system was no place for that conversation. In addition to this highly sensitive information, we also found information that was properly classified as Secret by the U.S. Intelligence Community at the time it was discussed on e-mail (that is, excluding the later “up-classified” e-mails).

None of these e-mails should have been on any kind of unclassified system, but their presence is especially concerning because all of these e-mails were housed on unclassified personal servers not even supported by full-time security staff, like those found at Departments and Agencies of the U.S. Government—or even with a commercial service like Gmail.

Separately, it is important to say something about the marking of classified information. Only a very small number of the e-mails containing classified information bore markings indicating the presence of classified information. But even if information is not marked “classified” in an e-mail, participants who know or should know that the subject matter is classified are still obligated to protect it..."


https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system (https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 08:12:25 pm
i thought the original point was about hat bands.
110 baud original.
or toggle switches for boot sequences into 8/16 bit registers.
Indeed, just less than half a dozen posts, Jeff’s topic was Hijacked.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 08:15:49 pm
Here's Comey' statement about Hillary's emails.  It's pretty condemning.  Maybe not as condemning as putting on a hat backwards, but pretty bad nonetheless.
Condemning maybe, but that's as far as it's gone, long after Comey was fired. So now, in this context, Comey is an OK guy, but when he discusses Trump, that's fake news?
Again, if you have evidence Hillary's case should be reopened, provide that evidence; here, to the FBI/DOJ, etc. She and Powell, yeah, more commending than putting on a hat backwards. Both were apparently far smarter and sharper than the bozo with the stuffed animal.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on June 29, 2018, 08:16:50 pm
My first modem was 300 baud, and functioned the way Russ described.
My present modem (and it is still called a modem, by Verizon) connects my home PC and network to Verizon's fiber optic network.
Obviously, its internal functioning is way different from the days of 3300 and 1200 baud modems.

But in my 35 years as a professor of math and computer science, I never heard the term "digital bridge." Perhaps it's some local Florida custom.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 08:20:08 pm
But in my 35 years as a professor of math and computer science, I never heard the term "digital bridge." Perhaps it's some local Florida custom.
Ditto, and using 'the Google' didn't help either. Fake news, made up term? Here in the Coffee Corner? Impossible! Sarcasm over, I did find this, it's not a modem!
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 29, 2018, 08:25:13 pm

And Les, since your age is N/A I'm sure you never saw or heard a modem.

Russ, I used my first 300B modem in mid seventies, they were then larger in size than today's cable modems.
And here is a recent picture of my very clean, but much smaller 9600B modem.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 08:27:21 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem)
There is 'digital' to be found here.
There is 'bridge' to be found here.
There is no "digital bridge" to be found here.
Still looking..... :o
Nothing there about how to wear a hat...
But there IS this:
https://theidleman.com/manual/advice/how-wear-hat/ (https://theidleman.com/manual/advice/how-wear-hat/)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 29, 2018, 08:27:37 pm
Phil, if the age in your profile is correct I suspect you never dialed a number to which you wanted to connect your computer, listened for the modem tones, then put your phone handset into your local modem in order to make a computer connection. That's what the term "modem" refers to: modulate and demodulate tones. We used to make data transfers with actual tones sent down the phone line. Nowadays we use a digital bridge, which sends digital signal packets down the line outside the sound bandwidth of the phone. It's always connected. You no longer have to get tonal handshaking going before you can send and receive. You even can use your telephone while the transfer is going on. We still call the box we use as a digital bridge a "modem," but it's not a modem.

That explain it for you? I've forgotten exactly when we stopped using modems, but I did for a long time.

And Les, since your age is N/A I'm sure you never saw or heard a modem.
  My first experience with modems was as a Top Secret crypto technician in the USAF 1963-1967.  So they were around then at least.  They were used to modulate and demodulate voice into data streams for encryption through a crypto machine.  At that time, the modems did not modulate voice into enough levels.  So when a general spoke to another general who he knew personally, he couldn't recognize their voice.  So they were very untrusting of the early system.  Of course today, we modulate voice and music with ease and clarity.  But in the beginning, it was very basic and coarse.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 29, 2018, 08:30:28 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modem)
There is 'digital' to be found here.
There is 'bridge' to be found here.
There is no "digital bridge" to be found here.
Still looking..... :o
Nothing there about how to wear a hat...
But there IS this:
https://theidleman.com/manual/advice/how-wear-hat/ (https://theidleman.com/manual/advice/how-wear-hat/)

Andrew, it looks like somebody is trying  to sell you a digital bridge.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 29, 2018, 08:32:14 pm
Interesting progression. 

We went from mocking someone for accidentally putting his hat on backwards, which for all intents and purposes looks exacting the same from any angle except for a small brass detail, to the differences between Colin Powell and HRC email practices, something I thought we got past back in Nov. 2016.

Totally natural and logical to me. 

Just to clarify.  It wasn't his hat.  He doesn't own it or a hat like it.  It was given to him just for the advertisement photograph. But you're right; it was an easy mistake to make.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 08:42:13 pm
But you're right; it was an easy mistake to make.
As expected:

Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 29, 2018, 08:49:34 pm
Condemning maybe, but that's as far as it's gone, long after Comey was fired. So now, in this context, Comey is an OK guy, but when he discusses Trump, that's fake news?
Again, if you have evidence Hillary's case should be reopened, provide that evidence; here, to the FBI/DOJ, etc. She and Powell, yeah, more commending than putting on a hat backwards. Both were apparently far smarter and sharper than the bozo with the stuffed animal.

I always thought the fight about classified government messages on the server was a distraction to the real issue Hillary wanted to avoid discussing.  And that was the 30,000 private messages she deleted that no one ever saw.  You see, the server was set up for the purpose of her never having to show anyone any private messages.  The messages she didn't want to ever come to light were between her and foreign and local contributors to the Clinton Foundation slush fund that that made the Clinton's millions.  Who knows what other shenanigans were in those deleted emails? Who believed her when she said she only deleted her mother-in-laws recipes and discussions about holiday get-togethers?  If she used government servers, those private messages would have been memorialized forever. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 29, 2018, 10:51:39 pm
Phil, if the age in your profile is correct I suspect you never dialed a number to which you wanted to connect your computer, listened for the modem tones, then put your phone handset into your local modem in order to make a computer connection.

You'd be entirely wrong.  I used an acoustic coupler modem for the first time in 1983 (300 baud) at the age of 13.  I started using modems regularly in 1987, but they were not acoustic couplers, but rather direct connection acoustic devices, starting with, at the time, a very fancy 2400 baud and over the years moving up and using a 9600 baud (briefly), then a 12000 baud (Zyxel - proprietary 12k rate, but supported standard 9600), then 14k4, 28k8, 56k, then moving away from acoustic devices on to cable modems and then ADSL.  That was all personal use.  In business, from the mid 90's to the early 2000's, my laptops had modems that could connect directly to the bank's computers to access various systems - done with acoustic connections, of course.

I could pick the connection speed by listening to the connection negotiation and, more than one, cancelled a call to try again to get a better connection (particularly when I was making international calls to pick up and deliver Fidonet and other FTN mail packets before I was involved in a little project that started to tunnel those packets via the internet (UUCP)) so I could do large transfers using Y-modem instead of Z-modem because Y-modem had no CRC and was therefore faster, so long as you had a clean enough line to not need the CRC (or sometimes just because I was going to be connected for a while and a cleaner connection was just plain nicer and less chance of dropping out).

That's what the term "modem" refers to: modulate and demodulate tones. We used to make data transfers with actual tones sent down the phone line.

I know.  It wasn't a big mystery.

Nowadays we use a digital bridge, which sends digital signal packets down the line outside the sound bandwidth of the phone. It's always connected. You no longer have to get tonal handshaking going before you can send and receive. You even can use your telephone while the transfer is going on. We still call the box we use as a digital bridge a "modem," but it's not a modem.

Again, I know.  You're referring to DSL services, they use a higher frequency.  They're still called modems, as you concede.


That explain it for you? I've forgotten exactly when we stopped using modems, but I did for a long time.

Oh, I've never been in doubt as to what a modem is or what DSL is (or that when you say digital bridge you are referring to DSL services).  The point, which you've missed entirely, is that if Powell was connecting or sending email via a "private line" from his laptop, he was either using an actual modem to connect to another computer or an ISP, or he was connecting via DSL using a device commonly referred to as a modem either to an ISP or to some other computer.  The point is that it was a private line and not connected via the approved methods.  The rest is just obfuscation on your part and a very silly attempt to suggest that only someone of your vintage would understand or be aware of acoustic (coupler or otherwise) modems and related technologies or that they wouldn't have used them.

FWIW, I was also programming Z80 processers in Assembler in 1981 and I helped to assemble my highschool's Mircobee kit computers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroBee) in the mid 80's, and helping to set up the Token Ring network in the computer room where the Microbees were.  That was '85 IIRC.

This is just technology that I grew up with, Russ - it's not bloody magic.

EDIT: Andrew Mentioned ISDN - yes, very fast!  I never had it myself, but I had a few clients in the early 2000's with them.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 29, 2018, 10:57:04 pm
I never heard the term "digital bridge."

Nor had I, but the context took me to assume it referred to DSL services, and that turned out to be the case, and it's not an unreasonable term so I assume it was used somewhere at some point or is just a general, descriptive term that Russ has used (which is fine).
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on June 29, 2018, 11:30:12 pm
So to connect this with the original post, if Ryan Zinke ever had to use an acoustic coupler modem, I wonder which way he would have plugged the handset into it?   ???
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Schewe on June 29, 2018, 11:44:57 pm
Backwards, of course, cause he is pretty dumb.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 29, 2018, 11:53:40 pm
Or worse still, he might put the acoustic coupler on his ear. And then put the hat back on.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: aderickson on June 30, 2018, 12:31:17 am
As a former USNPS Ranger (Glacier NP 1973) I find it offensive that he even had the hat on his head. That he had it backwards is insulting.

I still have my flat brimmed Stetson and display it proudly in my den.

Allan
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 30, 2018, 02:10:17 am
Whoever was taking the photograph didn't do their job.  This appears to be an ad campaign for kid rangers or whatever.  Whoever produced this, took the shot and released the photo should be fired. 

Reminds me of the Dukakis presidential campaign years ago.  The candidate was trying to impress people with his military prowess but came off looking like a wuss and incompetent with this stupid helmet on his head that made him look like Mickey Mouse.  He lost naturally.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2013/11/dukakis-and-the-tank-099119
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on June 30, 2018, 02:25:01 am
Whoever was taking the photograph didn't do their job.  This appears to be an ad campaign for kid rangers or whatever.  Whoever produced this, took the shot and released the photo should be fired. 

I'm pretty sure that it was actually Obama's fault. Haven't you learned ANYTHING?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 30, 2018, 07:34:59 am
FWIW, I was also programming Z80 processers in Assembler in 1981

Interesting. I started doing that in 1977. By 81 we were on to better processors. Why were you still doing Z80s?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 30, 2018, 07:58:07 am
FWIW, I was also programming Z80 processers in Assembler in 1981 and I helped to assemble my highschool's Mircobee kit computers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroBee) in the mid 80's, and helping to set up the Token Ring network in the computer room where the Microbees were.  That was '85 IIRC.
When I was a post-doc at Cornell (1975-78) we had a DEC PDP-11 'mini' computer that had to be booted up every morning with toggle switches and paper tape reader (remember those?).  IIRC we had both BASIC and FORTRAN compilers that also had to be individually read into the machine.  Any optimization had to be done through assembler and we usually had to get someone from the computer science department to come over and do that as most of us only could do high level programming and the computer was set up to data acquisition from some of the instruments that we used to do protein studies.  I can't remember how much memory it had but there is no question that my current Intel PC workstation is orders of magnitude more powerful, boots much faster and is easier to use than the old PDP.

It's always interesting to go back and look at all the companies around at that time that did not have the vision to innovate (CDC, Wang, DEC, Harris-Lanier, etc.) and are now just faint memories for those of us of a certain age and certainly totally unknown to most millennial CS degree holders. The same could be said of software companies that were powerhouses in the early days (Novell, WordPerfect, Lotus, etc.)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 30, 2018, 08:12:20 am
Interesting. I started doing that in 1977. By 81 we were on to better processors. Why were you still doing Z80s?

Since we're bragging ...

Been there, done that, (still) got the books (the T-shirts didn't fit anymore). See attachment.
I couldn't find the earlier 8080/8086 books or else I would have added them as well.
The Intel 8080 could address a whopping 64 kilobytes of memory ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 30, 2018, 08:14:13 am
I'm pretty sure that it was actually Obama's fault. Haven't you learned ANYTHING?
Wasn’t Obama the photographer and the stylist? ;D
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 30, 2018, 08:16:43 am
Interesting. I started doing that in 1977. By 81 we were on to better processors. Why were you still doing Z80s?

Because at 11 years of age, I didn't have the financial capacity to buy my own computer hardware.  I had access to a System 80 (which was a locally sold Z80-based PC similar to a TRS-80).  It's still produced today, BTW (the Z80, plus some derivative chips).

My personal access/ownership of computers started there, went to a Dick Smith Wizard (which was a rebadged CreatiVision games console but you could get a BASIC cart for it), Atari 800, TI-994a, Apple IIe, Amiga 2000 (with an 80286 board as a secondary bus), upgraded Amiga 2000 (added a 68040 processor), upgraded the 80286 board to an 80386 board, added an Amiga 1200 which I networked to the A2000 with a parallel port network and it could also see the secondary bus 800386), then a Pentium I and then a slew of PCs on from there until now.

I taught myself various versions of BASIC, Assembler, and REXX - but I was never a coder as such, just little projects to get things done for myself.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 30, 2018, 08:21:11 am
paper tape reader (remember those?).

I never used them, but saw them and knew of them.  A bit like the tape drives and old hard discs that I did use briefly doing some work experience (and then some actual work over the Christmas/summer holidays here when I was 15 nearly 16) for large building contractor who ran a VAX system and I was doing the role of a "computer operator" as it was.

I remember they had a guy who came in from time to time to consult who was called the $200/hour man.  In 1985, that was rather a lot of money.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 30, 2018, 08:22:30 am
Been there, done that, (still) got the books (the T-shirts didn't fit anymore). See attachment.
I couldn't find the earlier 8080/8086 books or else I would have added them as well.

Wow, I had the Zaks book!  Cool that you still have those :-)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 30, 2018, 08:27:09 am
Wow, I had the Zaks book!  Cool that you still have those :-)

Sweet memories ...

Did my first attempts at writing RSA cryptography routines on those, in Assembly of course.
Every clock-cycle counted, and memory was limited, so optimizations were crucial.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 30, 2018, 08:42:42 am
Because at 11 years of age, I didn't have the financial capacity to buy my own computer hardware.  I had access to a System 80 (which was a locally sold Z80-based PC similar to a TRS-80).  It's still produced today, BTW (the Z80, plus some derivative chips).

My personal access/ownership of computers started there, went to a Dick Smith Wizard (which was a rebadged CreatiVision games console but you could get a BASIC cart for it), Atari 800, TI-994a, Apple IIe, Amiga 2000 (with an 80286 board as a secondary bus), upgraded Amiga 2000 (added a 68040 processor), upgraded the 80286 board to an 80386 board, added an Amiga 1200 which I networked to the A2000 with a parallel port network and it could also see the secondary bus 800386), then a Pentium I and then a slew of PCs on from there until now.

I taught myself various versions of BASIC, Assembler, and REXX - but I was never a coder as such, just little projects to get things done for myself.

Sounds as if you and I have something in common, Phil. I got into computer science by chance too. When the IBM 360 first came out -- the first multi-tasking computer -- I was a Lt. Col at NORAD Hq. Ops Plans. We were working on a replacement for the original computer system in Cheyenne Mountain. I went to a course on the 360 at IBM, and during the course got exposed to PL/I, which was a mix between Fortran and COBOL. For some reason I really took to programming. The TRS-80 model I came out about the time I retired from the AF in 1977, and I was the second guy in Colorado Springs to own one.

Long story shorter: I started doing software development for a couple businesses in the local area. Got involved in writing a financial program for Colorado Tech, along with Dr. John Zingg, a retired AF officer who was a good friend, head of the computer science department, and the guy who'd started the computer science program at the Air Force Academy. I tumbled onto the C programming language and learned it. John talked me into doing a class in C, which was new for the school.

I've always loved teaching, but one of the things I discovered at the college was that when it comes to programming, you either have it or you don't. It's sort of like musical ability. It's something you're born with -- or not. There were a few young people in the school who were in computer science because they thought they could make big bucks in the field. But they simply didn't have the aptitude for it. Others flew high without really having to strain anything.

I started a little corporation and pretty soon had too much software development work to afford to go on teaching. I've always regretted that, but I had a ball breaking problems into smaller problems and the smaller problems into trivial problems and then building the software to put it all back together. At one point I also taught a course in C++ to Cirrus Logic's R&D branch in Colorado. I finally quit a couple years ago. Age has its problems. But I still love playing with it.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 30, 2018, 09:40:41 am
. . .paper tape reader (remember those?).

Not only do I remember those, Alan, I spent a couple years working with paper tape readers, paper tape punches, and keypunches at NORAD headquarters when I was developing stuff to get the Cheyenne Mountain computer system out of the dark ages of 100 baud teletype and into store and forward reporting through minicomputers at region blockhouses. I became a damn good keypunch operator, I'm proud to say. Anybody remember the 80 column punchcard?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on June 30, 2018, 09:41:47 am
 
Or worse still, he might put the acoustic coupler on his ear. And then put the hat back on.
;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: degrub on June 30, 2018, 10:17:27 am
Not only do I remember those, Alan, I spent a couple years working with paper tape readers, paper tape punches, and keypunches at NORAD headquarters when I was developing stuff to get the Cheyenne Mountain computer system out of the dark ages of 100 baud teletype and into store and forward reporting through minicomputers at region blockhouses. I became a damn good keypunch operator, I'm proud to say. Anybody remember the 80 column punchcard?
LOL. i still have a couple boxes of cards in the "library". And a punched tape to make a "Snoopy" calendar for the year 1971. i say that assuming the silverfish haven't devoured them yet...
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 30, 2018, 11:00:44 am
Not only do I remember those, Alan, I spent a couple years working with paper tape readers, paper tape punches, and keypunches at NORAD headquarters when I was developing stuff to get the Cheyenne Mountain computer system out of the dark ages of 100 baud teletype and into store and forward reporting through minicomputers at region blockhouses. I became a damn good keypunch operator, I'm proud to say. Anybody remember the 80 column punchcard?
LOL!!  I took computer programming in college (1968) and it was all mainframe and punchcards in those days.  They would run the CS student programs at the top of the hour so if you screwed up a card and got an error message, you corrected it and waited an hour for the next run.  It's amazing what we had to deal with in those days.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 30, 2018, 11:04:37 am
I tumbled onto the C programming language and learned it. John talked me into doing a class in C, which was new for the school.
I still have my copy of Kernigan and Ritchie which is quite valuable these days in terms of used book prices.  I got a copy of Borland Turbo C when it first came out and taught myself C programming.

Quote
I've always loved teaching, but one of the things I discovered at the college was that when it comes to programming, you either have it or you don't. It's sort of like musical ability. It's something you're born with -- or not. There were a few young people in the school who were in computer science because they thought they could make big bucks in the field. But they simply didn't have the aptitude for it. Others flew high without really having to strain anything.
Bill Gates proves this.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: degrub on June 30, 2018, 11:18:02 am
LOL!!  I took computer programming in college (1968) and it was all mainframe and punchcards in those days.  They would run the CS student programs at the top of the hour so if you screwed up a card and got an error message, you corrected it and waited an hour for the next run.  It's amazing what we had to deal with in those days.
a funny home made cigarette would get your re-run to the front of the JList with the right system operator in our school....
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 30, 2018, 11:30:14 am
a funny home made cigarette would get your re-run to the front of the JList with the right system operator in our school....
I was at UC Santa Barbara as an undergrad and everyone had weed in those days.  Maybe some good brownies would have helped
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 30, 2018, 11:56:19 am
So it seems we all have a lot more in common then our political posts would indicate. Our computer pasts.  So my turn to brag a little.   After in left the USAF in 1967 installing and maintaining crypto machines that used bi-stable ferromagnetic cores for flip flops rather than silicon, I went to work for Univac installing maintaining and repair their Univac 494 system, including the magnetic tape drives, memory drums, modems transmissions and computer and memories.  The 494 was a competitor at the time to the computer Russ's mentioned: IBM 360.  While IBM was using bytes (32 bit words 4x8), Univac was using octal machines at the time, the 494 being 30 bit words (3x10).  Although I wasn't trained in programming I did understand how each instruction (ie shift left, replace, etc.) worked through it's dozens of timing operations.  You needed that for equipment maintenance.  I use to write programs though in machine language just to mess around.  Actually its depressing discussing these old machines. It shows how old we all are getting. 

Intersting story that links up in a way with Hillary's email server issue was when we installed a new 494 at CIA headquarters.  One of the core memories didn't pass the memory tests we were doing.  So we isntalled a replacement.  The CIA wouldn;t let us remove the memory though under procedures they had.  Even though we assured them and they knew that the memory was wiped clean from running a "wash" program, and the computer had never been turned over to them to put anything on it, their policy was to not allow the memory to leave their premises.  I believe they eventually destroyed the bad memory.  But I'm no positive about that.   Apparently that sense of security was not passed down to Secretaries of State, either Gen.Colin Powell (who should have known better as a military man) or Hillary Clinton.

Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: KLaban on June 30, 2018, 12:33:12 pm
So it seems we all have a lot more in common then our political posts would indicate. Our computer pasts.  So my turn to brag a little.   After in left the USAF in 1967 installing and maintaining crypto machines that used bi-stable ferromagnetic cores for flip flops rather than silicon, I went to work for Univac installing maintaining and repair their Univac 494 system, including the magnetic tape drives, memory drums, modems transmissions and computer and memories.  The 494 was a competitor at the time to the computer Russ's mentioned: IBM 360.  While IBM was using bytes (32 bit words 4x8), Univac was using octal machines at the time, the 494 being 30 bit words (3x10).  Although I wasn't trained in programming I did understand how each instruction (ie shift left, replace, etc.) worked through it's dozens of timing operations.  You needed that for equipment maintenance.  I use to write programs though in machine language just to mess around.  Actually its depressing discussing these old machines. It shows how old we all are getting. 

I tried Google translate but it didn't recognise the language.

;-)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 30, 2018, 01:04:52 pm
Anybody remember the 80 column punchcard?

I certainly do. I started programming in 1976 using PortaPunch cards, which were 40-column cards that you "punched" by knocking out pre-perforated chads with a pencil. I then moved on to punching 80-column cards using a cast-iron gadget with a dozen keys (one for each row) which had to be pressed in combination to create the characters, after I'd learned that, for example 0-2 was R and 0-3-8 was left parenthesis. We'd then post the deck from my school to Imperial College in London, where they'd be run through their CDC-7600 (run-time limit 15 seconds) and posted back to us, with the printed output, a week or so later.

It encouraged rather careful programming. An hour? Pah.

Jeremy
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 30, 2018, 01:53:57 pm

It encouraged rather careful programming. An hour? Pah.

Jeremy
It makes me wonder if all the programmers trained over the past 15 years would have had the patience to do things the way it was done in the old days.  I still fool around with cryptography and am learning Python right now.  Instant gratification if the program runs or disappointment if it doesn't.  Even if things go a bit wrong, you usually get the error message(s) that allow you to make the corrections quickly.  There are also great GUI interfaces these days (currently I am using Atom) that make things a lot easier.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 30, 2018, 01:58:47 pm
I certainly do. I started programming in 1976 using PortaPunch cards, which were 40-column cards that you "punched" by knocking out pre-perforated chads with a pencil. I then moved on to punching 80-column cards using a cast-iron gadget with a dozen keys (one for each row) which had to be pressed in combination to create the characters, after I'd learned that, for example 0-2 was R and 0-3-8 was left parenthesis. We'd then post the deck from my school to Imperial College in London, where they'd be run through their CDC-7600 (run-time limit 15 seconds) and posted back to us, with the printed output, a week or so later.

It encouraged rather careful programming. An hour? Pah.

Jeremy

I don't know if it has encouraged careful programmimng. Picking up the computer error print-outs from the printer room, punching the new cards in another room and then carrying the heavy card boxes to yet another computer room wasn't exactly conducive to calm and productive thinking. It took me always more compile runs than anticipated.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 30, 2018, 03:01:04 pm
I don't know if it has encouraged careful programmimng. Picking up the computer error print-outs from the printer room, punching the new cards in another room and then carrying the heavy card boxes to yet another computer room wasn't exactly conducive to calm and productive thinking. It took me always more compile runs than anticipated.

How accurate is current programming?  People complain all the time about Lightroom etc.  And what about those apps on your phone, smart TV's etc? 

First off there are no clear instructions.  There seems to be industry aversion to providing clear and accurate manuals.  That's why we have so many forums for every piece of equipment and app.  People like me ignorant to the way the hardware and software is suppose to work posts to forum pages asking endless questions that often get answered by other ignorant people who are only slightly more knowledgeable then you.  Just when you get it working right, the company secretly updates the program while you're asleep so the problem is fixed but new problems are created.  Just when you're about the throw the whole thing overboard, the company comes out with an update that you're willing to pay for just to preserve your sanity and the whole thing starts over again.  You want to blow your brains out!
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 30, 2018, 03:18:00 pm
Programming and debugging was much more time consuming those days, but the programs were simple and they worked. And considering limited computer resources they were quite efficient.  Unlike the big bloated programs from major corporations today containing all kinds of fancy bells and whistles, and also all kinds of bugs and inefficient user dialogues.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 30, 2018, 03:19:31 pm
Oh come on, Les. Are you talking about all those "features?"
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on June 30, 2018, 03:32:38 pm
Oh come on, Les. Are you talking about all those "features?"

You mean like in my Sony camera's menu?  By the time you change to the settings you want, the sun set. :)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 30, 2018, 03:49:14 pm
You mean like in my Sony camera's menu?  By the time you change to the settings you want, the sun set. :)
As a new Sony owner, no such problems for me.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Frans Waterlander on June 30, 2018, 04:01:33 pm
As a new Sony owner, no such problems for me.

Well, good for you!
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on June 30, 2018, 04:11:43 pm
Oh come on, Les. Are you talking about all those "features?"

Yeah, must be "features", since mentioning bugs in software products is nowadays non-admissible.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on June 30, 2018, 04:18:56 pm
Never was when it was a "product." Only when it was "in development."
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 30, 2018, 04:26:52 pm
Never was when it was a "product." Only when it was "in development."
Didn't Adobe say that Lightroom is always "in development?"  Maybe that explains it all.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: digitaldog on June 30, 2018, 04:47:57 pm
Well, good for you!
Yeah can walk, chew gum and read a nozzle check at the same time unlike those who cannot read a nozzle check even with the aid of others!  :P
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1042775#msg1042775
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 30, 2018, 05:32:41 pm
one of the things I discovered at the college was that when it comes to programming, you either have it or you don't. It's sort of like musical ability. It's something you're born with -- or not.

And there are two types of people who get it.  Those who want to do it all the time and those who use it just as a tool as and when required.  I'm in the tool user group.  That's how I got into REXX, because Amiga had an implementation of it (AREXX) and most software on the Amiga had an AREXX port for communication, meaning you could (and I did) structure a whole lot of automation between various packages to do things like tossing email and processing attachments and routing and many other things.  Someone who wants to do it all the time creates stuff just for the hell of it, to be creative.  Programming is about understanding process and being able to logically identify problems and patterns and then logically solve them or process them in a desired manner.  The language is secondary (although obviously the better you know a language the more fluent your code will be).  To be a little more on topic, if you want to be the head of the USNPS you should probably have enough passion for it to look at the hat long enough to ask questions about how it should be worn.  Or at least be functional enough with hats to realise they have a front and back :-)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on June 30, 2018, 05:35:50 pm
Anybody remember the 80 column punchcard?

Only because in 5th grade we had a very attractive student teacher who was doing some CS as well as her teaching degree and she brought the cards in for us to see (1980).  We did end up punching up a bunch of them and got to have them run - she organised an excursion to her Uni and we had got a tour of the computers and they ran the cards to create printouts.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 30, 2018, 07:50:41 pm
Hats off to all you computer geeks. Backwards or not ;)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 30, 2018, 07:56:52 pm
Hats off to all you computer geeks. Backwards or not ;)
Now if Secretary Zinke had a baseball cap on backwards that would have been OK!!! ;D
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 01, 2018, 03:48:46 am
Oh come on, Les. Are you talking about all those "features?"

A feature is a documented bug, Russ. Everyone knows that  ;)

Jeremy
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: HSakols on July 02, 2018, 07:12:22 pm
Being someone who can't really go on without wilderness I'm disgusted with Zinke. I just returned from being out for 5 nights hiking 9-10 miles a day.  It was wonderful not having internet or a phone.  What is really hard is seeing the low morale in many Park Service Employees.  I can't blame em.  Jeff you might want to check out  https://www.facebook.com/AltUSNationalParkService/ 

Can you imagine what Ansel would have thought about the new administration? 

Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 02, 2018, 07:52:52 pm
Being someone who can't really go on without wilderness I'm disgusted with Zinke. I just returned from being out for 5 nights hiking 9-10 miles a day.  It was wonderful not having internet or a phone. 
What is really hard is seeing the low morale in many Park Service Employees.  I can't blame em.  Jeff you might want to check out  https://www.facebook.com/AltUSNationalParkService/ 

Can you imagine what Ansel would have thought about the new administration?

That's a good and important point. Having a moron in charge of any organization is very demotivating. Tremendous (and often irreparable) damages can be inflicted that way.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Schewe on July 03, 2018, 01:42:18 am
Jeff you might want to check out  https://www.facebook.com/AltUSNationalParkService/ 

Can you imagine what Ansel would have thought about the new administration?

Yep...I remember that the new National Parks admin tried to find out who was posting on AltParks but couldn't figure it out...

And yes, Ansel would have been pissed...as I am. I really feel bad for the long time park employees because of the lack of respect being show like this debacle with the head of Yellowstone (who DID wear is hat correctly and proudly).

Yellowstone chief Dan Wenk says he feels he's "no longer wanted" after spat with Trump administration (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dan-wenk-yellowstone-national-park-superintendent-forced-out-today-2018-06-07/)

(http://schewephoto.com/misc/yellowstone_superintendent_dan_wenk__27932499106_.jpg)
(note the hat correctly worn)

Quote
BILLINGS, Mont. -- Yellowstone National Park's superintendent said Thursday that he's being forced out in an apparent "punitive action" and feels like he's "no longer wanted." This comes after disagreements with the Trump administration over how many bison the park can sustain, a longstanding source of conflict between park officials and ranchers in neighboring Montana.

Superintendent Dan Wenk announced last week that he intended to retire March 30, 2019, after being offered a transfer he didn't want. He said he was informed this week by National Park Service Acting Director Paul "Dan" Smith that a new superintendent will be in place in August and that Wenk will be gone by then.

"I feel this is a punitive action, but I don't know for sure. They never gave me a reason why," Wenk said. The only dispute he's had with U.S. Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke, who oversees the park service, was whether the park has too many bison, Wenk said.

"I'm feeling like I devoted 43 years of my life, I think I have a record of achievement with the National Park Service that at the end of the day doesn't matter and that I'm no longer wanted at Yellowstone National Park," he told Yellowstone Public Radio (http://ypradio.org/post/exclusive-head-yellowstone-feels-abused-interior-department-0#stream/0).

BTW, Zinke is also one of the guys who like EPA head Pruitt with questionable practices like:

Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke's $12K charter flight approved without full info (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/interior-secretary-ryan-zinkes-12k-charter-flight-approved-without-full-info/)

Quote
A $12,000 charter flight by Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke was reviewed and approved by department ethics officials without complete information, because staffers who helped schedule the trip did not provide sufficient details, an internal watchdog said Monday.

A report by Interior's inspector general said Zinke's use of a chartered flight after he spoke to a National Hockey League team in Las Vegas "might have been avoided" if Interior employees had worked with the team to accommodate Zinke's schedule.

Wait, what was the Interior Department head doing in Vegas talking to a NHL team in the first place?

Well, he sure has learned ethics from his boss, huh?

And this was the nut job that Trump told to figure out what national parks Trump should reduce in size or eliminate...

Yeah, Ansel would be pissed...
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 03, 2018, 02:39:14 pm
WTF us wrong with the USA? I get it that people have differing opinions about how things should be run, and I almost get it that people have become really rude about their opinions, since our current culture tends to reward loudmouths. But why would anyone want to decrease the size of the National Parks? What is wrong with National Parks? Is it really just because environmentalists like National Parks, therefore we have to come out against National Parks, because we like pissing off lefties. Is that really it? Are people that stupid?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 03, 2018, 03:31:44 pm
Any proof that someone wants to decrease the size of National Parks?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 03, 2018, 03:48:56 pm
Googling for "Trump national parks reduction" yielded 2,200,000 million hits.
The first one by National Geographic is shown below. National monuments are not exactly like national parks, but it is a shame anyway.

Quote
President Trump's December decision to scale back two national monuments in Utah took effect on February 2. Bears Ears National Monument has been reduced to 16 percent, and Grand Staircase-Escalante to a little over half of its original size.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/trump-shrinks-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/

and here is another link, this time specifically about National Parks

Quote
Cabins in disrepair, rusting pipelines, crumbling trails. These are some of the attributes that currently define national parks, which are in a state of crisis. Long have their problems been swept under the rug, but now President Trump plans to make matters worse, putting these parks, their wildlife, and their workers on the chopping block.

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/national-parks-are-dying-as-trump-swings-the-axe/
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Schewe on July 03, 2018, 03:52:16 pm
Any proof that someone wants to decrease the size of National Parks?

Did you miss it? It’s already happened to Bears Ear and Escalante in Utah and a possible reduction in several others.

Trump shrinks Bears Ears, Grand Staircase-Escalante monuments in historic proclamations (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/12/04/trump-travels-utah-historic-rollback-national-monuments/919209001/ mp://)

Quote
WASHINGTON — President Trump signed two proclamations Monday that shrink federally protected lands in Utah by about 2 million acres — the largest rollback of national monument designations in history.

Trump's decision to scale back the size of those monuments marks the most aggressive presidential effort to roll back national monument protections in U.S. history. In addition to shrinking the size of the two monuments, Trump also lifted restrictions on motorized vehicles and livestock grazing even within the smaller boundaries.

Already the vultures are circling with a number of extraction industries looking to take advantage of the loosened or eliminated ...and Zinke was the guy that drew up the reduction plans...so yeah tthe dummie that can’t out his hat on correctly it doing lots of damage to the national parks...
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 03, 2018, 04:18:52 pm
The total surface area of the Parks is only a small percentage of the total land area of the USA. There must be natural resources to harvest all over the place. Why put pressure on the Parks? Is it because they get to use that land for free instead of having to pay someone royalties? Is that it?

What an inspiring vision.

John Howard Kuntsler put it well in different context (https://www.ted.com/talks/james_howard_kunstler_dissects_suburbia, in which he criticizes modern American urban design). Pretty soon you could end up with a country full of places no one cares about. But hey, some rich guy will get a little bit richer.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 03, 2018, 04:43:38 pm
...National monuments are not exactly like national parks...

QED

So, any proof national parks are to be downsized?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 03, 2018, 05:05:14 pm
I wasn't aware of the distinction between the two types of properties.

But how is that relevant? Why would it be ok to shrink one type but not the other? There may be different legal procedures involved, I suppose, but that's not the main point of the criticism, I don't think. Were we having a legalistic procedural discussion?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 03, 2018, 05:14:08 pm
I wasn't aware of the distinction between the two types of properties.

But how is that relevant? Why would it be ok to shrink one type but not the other? There may be different legal procedures involved, I suppose, but that's not the main point of the criticism, I don't think. Were we having a legalistic procedural discussion?

There are different levels of protection, and National Parks obviously have better ones, for a reason. National monuments, however, could be changed by executive order. If I am not mistaken (please correct me if wrong), Obama expanded Escalante that way. If so, if one president can expand, another can reduce.

Note that I am not debating the merits of expanding vs. reducing. Nor I am stating that expanding is always wrong and reducing always good. Just pointing out the habit of (deliberately?) confusing the two categories, not unlike confusing legal vs. illegal immigration (which is almost always deliberate).

Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 03, 2018, 05:23:33 pm
National Parks must be created by an Act of Congress and there are 60 of these.  There have been some National Parks that were decommissioned.  National Monuments are also a protected land but can only be created by land owned or controlled by the US government and proclaimed as such by the President.  National Parks are administered by the National Parks Service while National Monuments may be administered by one of a number of Federal agencies including the Park Service, Bureau of Land Management, Forest Service, etc.  Some National Parks were upgraded from Monuments by Congress.

I hope this furthers this interesting discussion.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 03, 2018, 06:41:43 pm
For a hiker or a photographer seeking solitude, undisturbed nature, and beautiful scenery, there is not much difference between those two types of outdoor areas.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 03, 2018, 06:48:48 pm
For a hiker or a photographer seeking solitude, undisturbed nature, and beautiful scenery, there is not much difference between those two types of outdoor areas.

There are still 1 million acres left in Escalante, for instance, for your enjoyment.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 03, 2018, 08:08:14 pm
I wasn't aware of the distinction between the two types of properties.

But how is that relevant? Why would it be ok to shrink one type but not the other? There may be different legal procedures involved, I suppose, but that's not the main point of the criticism, I don't think. Were we having a legalistic procedural discussion?
National Parks are created by an act of Congress approved by the president like all other legislation.  It reflects the will of the people.  On the other hand, National Monuments act was set up at the time to give presidents unilateral emergency acts to separate out relatively small areas.  It wasn't set out to give presidents dictatorial rights to do what they want, where ever they want. The last president set aside huge areas at his own discretion.  While it might seem wonderful to me a New Jerseyite living 2000 miles away, there are many people local to the Monument areas who felt this imposed on their rights and wishes.  The magnitude of Obama's decision should have gone through Congress so the People could decide, not just one person. Then it could have been set up as a National Park rather than a Monument. Presidents aren't kings. 

The other issue with using the Monuments Act is like other presidential orders, it can be overruled or changed by subsequent presidents.  Doing it through Congressional legislation makes it more permanent as it would require a whole other act of Congress with presidential approval to change it, something that doesn't happen too often. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Schewe on July 04, 2018, 01:08:06 am
While it might seem wonderful to me a New Jerseyite living 2000 miles away, there are many people local to the Monument areas who felt this imposed on their rights and wishes.  The magnitude of Obama's decision should have gone through Congress so the People could decide, not just one person. Then it could have been set up as a National Park rather than a Monument. Presidents aren't kings.

Presidents aren't kings...and you are saying that about who? Obama?

The facts of the case of federal vs state and local control was litigated at length in Trump II (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=116264.0) so I won't bother to retry the case against what Trump has done....but the founder and CEO of Patagonia are engaged in a strong fight against what Trump has done. You can read more about it in this NYTimes article Patagonia v. Trump (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/05/business/patagonia-trump-bears-ears.html)

Quote
The outdoor retailer has supported grass-roots environmental activists for decades. Now it is suing the president in a bid to protect Bears Ears National Monument.

I will say that the local control isn't a great argument...not when local yahoos with rifles shot up ancient petroglyphs as reported here As Utah County develops, what is being done to protect ancient petroglyphs? (https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2018/02/23/as-utah-county-develops-what-is-being-done-to-protect-ancient-petroglyphs/)

Quote
Provo • As Steve Acerson perused ancient petroglyphs on the west side of Utah Lake on an unseasonably warm February morning, he started getting more and more upset.

The rock art enthusiast and president of the Utah Rock Art Research Association goes out frequently to identify rock art, and is intimately familiar with many of the known petroglyphs in Utah County — he helped discover many of them.

But as he reached down to point out a petroglyph depicting a bighorn sheep, he noticed the top half of the sheep had been damaged to the point that anyone who wanted to could pick up the detached piece of rock depicting the sheep's head, put it in their pocket, and walk away.

The reason for the damage? The piece of rock depicting the bighorn sheep lay at the base of a ridge used as a backdrop in a popular target shooting area on public lands.

But it's not just random mindless destruction going on but also wholesale looting of ancient Indian site as reported by Smithsonian magazine: An Exclusive Look at the Greatest Haul of Native American Artifacts, Ever (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/exclusive-greatest-haul-native-american-artifacts-looted-180956959/)

Quote
At dawn on June 10, 2009, almost 100 federal agents pulled up to eight homes in Blanding, Utah, wearing bulletproof vests and carrying side arms. An enormous cloud hung over the region, one of them recalled, blocking out the rising sun and casting an ominous glow over the Four Corners region, where the borders of Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico meet. At one hilltop residence, a team of a dozen agents banged on the door and arrested the owners—a well-respected doctor and his wife. Similar scenes played out across the Four Corners that morning as officers took an additional 21 men and women into custody. Later that day, the incumbent interior secretary and deputy U.S. attorney general, Ken Salazar and David W. Ogden, announced the arrests as part of “the nation’s largest investigation of archaeological and cultural artifact thefts.” The agents called it Operation Cerberus, after the three-headed hellhound of Greek mythology.

It seems that locals from Blanding Utah (the closest large town near Bears Ears) have been systematically looting all over southern Utah...but yeah, they are locals and should have the right to control their own territory huh?

And you don't really want to know how the locals are hoping to exploit that land removed from Bears Ears and Escalante...

Drilling and Mining Interests Pushed to Shrink Utah National Monuments, Documents Reveal (https://www.desmogblog.com/2018/03/02/drilling-mining-interests-pushed-shrink-utah-national-monuments-zinke)

Quote
Even though Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke insisted “this is not about energy,” environmentalists and public lands advocates have long suspected the Trump administration's cuts to national monuments were driven by its push for more drilling, mining and other development.

Now, internal Interior Department documents obtained by the New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/02/climate/bears-ears-national-monument.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fclimate&action=click&contentCollection=climate&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront&referer=) show that gaining access to the oil, natural gas and uranium deposits in Bears Ears and coal reserves in Grand Staircase-Escalante were indeed key reasons behind President Trump's drastic cuts to the two monuments in Utah.

In March 2017, an aide to Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) asked a senior Interior Department official to consider reduced boundaries for Bears Ears to remove land that contained oil and natural gas deposits. Hatch's office sent a map depicting a boundary change for the southeast portion of the Bears Ears monument to “resolve all known mineral conflicts,” the email said, referring to oil and gas sites on the land that the state's public schools wanted to lease out to increase state funds.

As the Times reported, the map that Hatch's office provided—and notably sent about a month before Sec. Zinke publicly initiated his review of national monuments in April—was incorporated almost exactly into the much larger reductions President Trump would later announce.

Yeah, sorry...pretty sure the locals aren't the best judges of what is done. So far they have not been good stewards. Seems greed is their primary motive...kinda like Trump, huh?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 04, 2018, 02:51:49 am
National Parks are created by an act of Congress approved by the president like all other legislation.  It reflects the will of the people.  On the other hand, National Monuments act was set up at the time to give presidents unilateral emergency acts to separate out relatively small areas.  It wasn't set out to give presidents dictatorial rights to do what they want, where ever they want. The last president set aside huge areas at his own discretion.  While it might seem wonderful to me a New Jerseyite living 2000 miles away, there are many people local to the Monument areas who felt this imposed on their rights and wishes.  The magnitude of Obama's decision should have gone through Congress so the People could decide, not just one person. Then it could have been set up as a National Park rather than a Monument. Presidents aren't kings. 

The other issue with using the Monuments Act is like other presidential orders, it can be overruled or changed by subsequent presidents.  Doing it through Congressional legislation makes it more permanent as it would require a whole other act of Congress with presidential approval to change it, something that doesn't happen too often.

These are technicalities and rules how to administer the public lands. More important are the reasons why the National Monuments areas were created. 

Quote
The original theory of national parks and monuments was that they would exemplify the spirit of the country. They were the American cathedrals. But instead they attract fights over collective identity. The Malheur occupiers and the opponents of Bears Ears are only the latest iteration of a long fight to free these lands from certain kinds of people. Those who created the parks, monuments, and federal wilderness system preferred certain kinds of residents and visitors: John Muir disliked and made fun of the shepherds and laborers in Yosemite; Teddy Roosevelt and his friends disliked and wanted to escape immigrants in the cities; the creation of Yellowstone and Glacier National Parks involved expulsion of native people.  There has never been enough public space for the contending publics who want it. And so, the land exemplifies the country: It is the site of fights over whose country is being taken away, who is the patriot and who is the usurper or trespasser.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/07/trumpian-nativism-is-transforming-the-american-landscape/564026/
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 04, 2018, 04:47:26 am
Same old problem, Alan. It's the Washington Post, and they actually want me to pay money to read their fake news. If you'll pay for me I might at least glance at it.

I just saw the movie the "The Post". I must say I was impressed by the bravery of those man who risked jail time to let the truth go out because they understood that free press is key for democracy as a counter power for the lies of the government on some topics.

At that time it was the Vietnam war, but many Republican voters were negative about the release of these facts.

History has shown who was right.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 04, 2018, 07:34:58 am
I just saw the movie the "The Post". I must say I was impressed by the bravery of those man who risked jail time to let the truth go out because they understood that free press is key for democracy as a counter power for the lies of the government on some topics.

At that time it was the Vietnam war, but many Republican voters were negative about the release of these facts.

History has shown who was right.

Cheers,
Bernard

A bt off topic, but I'll repeat something I've written on these pages before. Whenever I hear people in power complain about the biased press, it just means to me that the press is doing its job and is on the right track.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2018, 07:37:44 am
These are technicalities and rules how to administer the public lands. More important are the reasons why the National Monuments areas were created. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/07/trumpian-nativism-is-transforming-the-american-landscape/564026/

Les, First off, I'm for National Parks.  In April,  my wife and I drove over 2000 miles visiting and photographing a slew of national and other type parks in Utah where the two in question (we didn't visit those though) and others in Arizona and regular parks in NM as well.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157694819890421

However, it's not a technicality between National Park and National Monuments.  National Parks require the will of the people through Congressional legislation, not a president's lone decision.  Monuments were intended to be small to protect specific antiquities and archeological sites.   Here's the actual law American Antiquities Act of 1906 that set up Monuments. https://www.nps.gov/history/local-law/anti1906.htm  There was no intent to cover the huge park areas that Pres Clinton and Obama created for Big Ears and Grand Staircase, or in fact many of the other wonderful National Parks that were legislated into law by Congress..  In any case, Trump didn't reverse them wholly but reduced one by 85% and the other by about half.  The way to avoid these back and forth political decisions by Presidents is to memorialize them in legislation.  That requires Congress.


Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2018, 07:52:48 am
I just saw the movie the "The Post". I must say I was impressed by the bravery of those man who risked jail time to let the truth go out because they understood that free press is key for democracy as a counter power for the lies of the government on some topics.

At that time it was the Vietnam war, but many Republican voters were negative about the release of these facts.

History has shown who was right.

Cheers,
Bernard

Just to clarify history for you.  It was a Democrat, President Johnson, who started and escalated the war in Vietnam with his phony Tonkin Bay incident, his lie claiming North Vietnam attacked our ships first. It was Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, a Democrat under Democrat President Johnson who lied for years to the public about our ability to win the war after telling Ellsworth of the Pentagon Papers that he didn't think we could win.  I didn't see the movie.  But it seems the movie wants to re-write history if its intent was to blame the war on Republicans.   
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 04, 2018, 08:20:11 am
However, it's not a technicality between National Park and National Monuments.  National Parks require the will of the people through Congressional legislation, not a president's lone decision.  Monuments were intended to be small to protect specific antiquities and archeological sites.   Here's the actual law American Antiquities Act of 1906 that set up Monuments. https://www.nps.gov/history/local-law/anti1906.htm  There was no intent to cover the huge park areas that Pres Clinton and Obama created for Big Ears and Grand Staircase, or in fact many of the other wonderful National Parks that were legislated into law by Congress..  In any case, Trump didn't reverse them wholly but reduced one by 85% and the other by about half.  The way to avoid these back and forth political decisions by Presidents is to memorialize them in legislation.  That requires Congress.
What is missing from this argument is the clear fact that the lands under question are the property of the US government and not the states in question.  The lands in the west, other than Texas, were acquired through war or purchase.  When statehood was conferred by an Act of Congress I don't believe that these lands were part of the granting of statehood but rather preserved by the US government.  the lands in question were hardly inhabited at the time of statehood (Utah is a great example here as the population of the state was centered around Salt Lake City area. Nevada was pretty much Reno and Carson City; Las Vegas came a lot later.)   You might not like that but please note that this was through an Act of Congress which according to your statement was "...the will of the people..."    Some National Parks started off as National Monuments (Grand Canyon and the Olympic Rain Forrest.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2018, 08:46:12 am
What is missing from this argument is the clear fact that the lands under question are the property of the US government and not the states in question.  The lands in the west, other than Texas, were acquired through war or purchase.  When statehood was conferred by an Act of Congress I don't believe that these lands were part of the granting of statehood but rather preserved by the US government.  the lands in question were hardly inhabited at the time of statehood (Utah is a great example here as the population of the state was centered around Salt Lake City area. Nevada was pretty much Reno and Carson City; Las Vegas came a lot later.)   You might not like that but please note that this was through an Act of Congress which according to your statement was "...the will of the people..."    Some National Parks started off as National Monuments (Grand Canyon and the Olympic Rain Forrest.
...and your point is?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: degrub on July 04, 2018, 10:46:52 am
Just to clarify history for you.  It was a Democrat, President Johnson, who started and escalated the war in Vietnam with his phony Tonkin Bay incident, his lie claiming North Vietnam attacked our ships first. It was Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, a Democrat under Democrat President Johnson who lied for years to the public about our ability to win the war after telling Ellsworth of the Pentagon Papers that he didn't think we could win.  I didn't see the movie.  But it seems the movie wants to re-write history if its intent was to blame the war on Republicans.   
Actually, Kennedy (D) and Eisenhower(R) had a hand in it starting for the US as the French got pummeled out by the communist forces in the North. Eisenhower refused to bomb Dien Bien Phu to save the French, but later actively supported the anti-communist government in the South. Kennedy escalated with additional active military support and aid, starting with additional "advisors". Johnson's administration, as you said, used the Tonkin incident get Congress to authorize escalation to active bombing campaigns and then US ground troops the following year.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2018, 12:04:30 pm
Actually, Kennedy (D) and Eisenhower(R) had a hand in it starting for the US as the French got pummeled out by the communist forces in the North. Eisenhower refused to bomb Dien Bien Phu to save the French, but later actively supported the anti-communist government in the South. Kennedy escalated with additional active military support and aid, starting with additional "advisors". Johnson's administration, as you said, used the Tonkin incident get Congress to authorize escalation to active bombing campaigns and then US ground troops the following year.

We support and provide advisers to lots of countries around the world.  But Republican Eisenhower was smart enough to stay out of a war in Vietnam.  America had 8 years of peace during his two terms.  Democrat Kennedy did enough damage with his failed Bay of Pigs fiasco that led directly to the Cuban Missile Crisis and nearly WWIII.  He was assassinated before he could do more damage in Vietnam. But it was Democrat Johnson who fabricated the Tonkin Gulf incident to get Congress to write the War Powers Act that gave him permission to go into a real war.  So it was Johnson who took us from a few advisers under Kennedy to 500,000+ troops and 58,000 Americans dead. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2018, 12:08:08 pm
I was there when this crap started. When Rolling Thunder began on March 1st, 1965, I was in Thailand. Shortly after that the Marines landed on the beaches of Vietnam. They jumped off the landing craft and waded ashore to meet girls with leis and reporters with movie cameras. They could have docked and gone ashore without getting wet, but this was an LBJ and McNamara production. I was sent down to Vietnam in June. When I got to Vietnam as a radar site commander I was in the midst of a bunch of Army guys flying Huey gunships. We weren't pretending to be advisors any longer.

Eisenhower was the first president I voted for, and I remember Eisenhower warning about getting involved in a war in Asia. One reason he backed the anti-communists in the South was to avoid the kind of war his successors got us into. When I look at the history of the damned thing, going back to WW II, I wonder if it wouldn't have been better to back Ho Chi Minh toward the end of the big war. That could lead to a long discussion in which I don't intend to get involved, but there are some good arguments in that direction.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 04, 2018, 12:41:17 pm
Best book on Vietnam that I've read is Frances FitzGerald's "The Fire in the Lake." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_in_the_Lake)  It's an expansive history of Vietnam and the American involvement.  For the military side of things Neil Sheehan's "A Bright Shining LIe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bright_Shining_Lie) that traces things through the lens of John Paul Vann who served early on in the military and after his resignation from the Army as an advisor.  Both books are compelling reads.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Peter McLennan on July 04, 2018, 01:23:27 pm
Ken Burns’ Vietnam doc series is relentlessly informative, even for those of us old enough to have watched it unfold.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 04, 2018, 02:20:26 pm
Just to clarify history for you.  It was a Democrat, President Johnson, who started and escalated the war in Vietnam with his phony Tonkin Bay incident, his lie claiming North Vietnam attacked our ships first. It was Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, a Democrat under Democrat President Johnson who lied for years to the public about our ability to win the war after telling Ellsworth of the Pentagon Papers that he didn't think we could win.  I didn't see the movie.  But it seems the movie wants to re-write history if its intent was to blame the war on Republicans.   

As you well know, it was not the war per se that was the subject of the WP story, it was the lies that accompanied the extension to Cambodia. Nixon was a Republican, as I recall?

Photography content> The War Relics Museum in Ho Chi Minh City has a great number of stunning images.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 04, 2018, 03:28:11 pm
Gee, I though it was "Swift Boat Kerry," the Democrat candidate, who extended the war into Cambodia.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: JoeKitchen on July 04, 2018, 05:00:30 pm
As you well know, it was not the war per se that was the subject of the WP story, it was the lies that accompanied the extension to Cambodia. Nixon was a Republican, as I recall?

Photography content> The War Relics Museum in Ho Chi Minh City has a great number of stunning images.

Actually it was both.  McNamara was the one who initiated the analysis that would eventually become the Pentagon Papers, and it was his assertion that the war was not winnable from the on set that was most surprising. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 04, 2018, 10:28:46 pm
As you well know, it was not the war per se that was the subject of the WP story, it was the lies that accompanied the extension to Cambodia. Nixon was a Republican, as I recall?

Photography content> The War Relics Museum in Ho Chi Minh City has a great number of stunning images.
Nixon initially wanted to reveal the contents of the pentagon papers because they embarrassed Democrats.  But Kissinger, his national security advisor, advised him to fight to keep the papers secret so not to establish precedent for future secrets.  But Nixon had nothing to do with all the lies around Vietnam leading up to our involvement in the war there as the papers covered Vietnam from 1948 to 1967 before Nixon became president (in 1969). 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 05, 2018, 05:14:03 am
Just to clarify history for you.  It was a Democrat, President Johnson, who started and escalated the war in Vietnam with his phony Tonkin Bay incident, his lie claiming North Vietnam attacked our ships first. It was Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, a Democrat under Democrat President Johnson who lied for years to the public about our ability to win the war after telling Ellsworth of the Pentagon Papers that he didn't think we could win.  I didn't see the movie.  But it seems the movie wants to re-write history if its intent was to blame the war on Republicans.   

Euh... I am not sure where I wrote anything not aligned with the historical facts.

But you seem to have missed the point entirely since the point was about the importance of having a free press.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 05, 2018, 07:49:43 am
Euh... I am not sure where I wrote anything not aligned with the historical facts.

But you seem to have missed the point entirely since the point was about the importance of having a free press.

Cheers,
Bernard


I'm all in favor a free press.  But your original post blamed Republicans.  It didn't mention that the Pentagon Papers showed the duplicity and lies of Democrat President Johnson and his Secretary of Defense McNamara who were the main cause of getting America into a major war in Vietnam.  Republican President Nixon was only responsible for defending the release of the papers publicly after the fact so that future secrets of government operations could be protected.  Republicans didn't start the war.  Democrats did.  I just wanted to set the record straight. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Manoli on July 05, 2018, 07:54:27 am
Actually it was both.  McNamara was the one who initiated the analysis that would eventually become the Pentagon Papers, and it was his assertion that the war was not winnable from the on set that was most surprising. 

The Fog of War - an Errol Morris Film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdMeHxDg90


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QYAP821GL.jpg)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: JoeKitchen on July 05, 2018, 08:14:24 am
The Fog of War - an Errol Morris Film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdMeHxDg90


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51QYAP821GL.jpg)

Well, considering our new forum links rule and that sitting through an entire movie is a significantly bigger commitment of my time, which I just don't have right now, then compared to the average link posted (even compared to Schewe's average article sizes), could you at least summarize what you posted and why you are posting this in reaction to my comment? 

I am not even sure if you are being confrontational or agreeable or just providing more information for the sake of it with this link. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 05, 2018, 08:38:50 am
Joe, here's a summary.  The link has a written list of the 11 lessons learned.  I think McNamara was a very conflicted soul.  I wouldn't trade anything for what he must have gone through, the guilt, for the rest of his life knowing that if he was honest, had a little lesss hubris, and broke with Johnson he could have stopped the carnage a lot sooner.

"The Fog of War is a film about the life and times of Robert S. McNamara, the former Secretary of Defense under the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. The piece is a mix between historical footage and an interview with Robert McNamara by the director, Errol Morris. While allowing McNamara to tell the story from his perspective, Morris also divides the film into eleven lessons that can be taken away from McNamara’s life. What results is an inside look at one of the most important and controversial figures of 20th century American government. The film is also a candid look at the human side of the decision makers that run the United States and how their personalities can affect policy.
http://handofreason.com/2011/media/the-fog-of-war-eleven-lessons-from-the-life-of-robert-s-mcnamara
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Manoli on July 05, 2018, 08:44:29 am
I am not even sure if you are being confrontational or agreeable or just providing more information for the sake of it with this link. 

Certainly not being confrontational and your post was a non-partisan cue to a period of history which is more than just 'interesting'  I don't/didn't comment to avoid the ensuing partisan Dems/Reps bickering. It's an excellent documentary, so I linked to a youtube clip. Is it worth 90 minutes of your time ? - only you can be the judge of that. It won awards and was highly acclaimed - IMO with good reason.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Manoli on July 05, 2018, 09:03:42 am
... knowing that if he was honest, had a little lesss hubris, and broke with Johnson he could have stopped the carnage a lot sooner.

I'd agree with the 'broke with Johnson' but whether he could have stopped the carnage sooner is doubtful. I suspect he disliked Johnson in the extreme (understandably) but, as in the current US administration, you do what you can behind the scenes, but I'd guess that there are quite a few who aren't exactly fully behind the POTUS.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 05, 2018, 09:19:42 am
I didn't see the movie. 

Don't let that stop you, Alan.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 05, 2018, 09:34:09 am
I'd agree with the 'broke with Johnson' but whether he could have stopped the carnage sooner is doubtful. I suspect he disliked Johnson in the extreme (understandably) but, as in the current US administration, you do what you can behind the scenes, but I'd guess that there are quite a few who aren't exactly fully behind the POTUS.
Of course we'll never know as you can't change history.  But Johnson refused to run for his second term.  Had McNamara gone public, Johnson may have had to get out sooner.  Of course, Johnson just kicked the can down the road to the next President to deal with it.  So it may not have made a difference anyway because neither president could just get out "without honor".  So its grind to the end may have been inevitable the way it happened. 

On a separate note, I did read a little about the lessons learned by McNamara.  It said he was one of those who planned the fire bomb raids on Japan cities killing civilian populations during WWII.  He acknowledged that he'd probably be charged with wars against humanity if America lost.  So McNamara was certainly not squeamish about making war.  Any argument he would have made against Johnson's beliefs and actions rings hallow. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 05, 2018, 09:55:53 am
Then, of course, there was "body count" Westmoreland.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 05, 2018, 10:01:37 am
Then, of course, there was "body count" Westmoreland.
That's what happens when you don't fight for territory.  How else do you gage success?  We fought with one hand tied behind our backs.  If we had invaded the North and taken territory, we could have had a peace treaty a lot sooner.  Of course the lesson here is to stay out of civil wars if you can in the first place.   
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 05, 2018, 10:31:11 am
I sometimes thought it was with both hands tied behind our backs, Alan. I think I've talked about this before on LuLa: When I was ops officer at Lion (call sign for the radar site at Ubon, Thailand) we'd handle flights of fighter-bombers in and out heading for targets in N. Vietnam. I'd frequently get ops orders with intelligence about SAM sites under construction in N. Vietnam. For some insane political reason we weren't allowed to hit those sites while they were under construction. Of course, once they were operational they could shoot down our aircraft. I'll never forget the poor bastard who was outbound with his F-105 that had been hit and was losing fuel. Our IFF (Identification, friend or foe -- google it) was out, so we couldn't identify him in the mass of aircraft heading west and steer him to Ubon. He made a landing attempt at Mukdahan, north of us on the Mekong, where the Brits were building a new airfield. When he saw the bulldozers on the runway he had to go around. He flamed out a minute later and had to bail out.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 05, 2018, 10:38:34 am
Desperately trying to deflect the historical revisionism back to photography - an exhibition from Copenhagen Photo festival that I recently attended, showing some results of what happens when you don't stay out of other peoples' business ...

https://copenhagenphotofestival.com/begivenhed/international-journalism-project/
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 05, 2018, 10:54:26 am
Desperately trying to deflect the historical revisionism back to photography - an exhibition from Copenhagen Photo festival that I recently attended, showing some results of what happens when you don't stay out of other peoples' business ...

https://copenhagenphotofestival.com/begivenhed/international-journalism-project/
How do you see the rest of the pictures?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: degrub on July 05, 2018, 11:02:26 am
Fly to Copenhagen
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 06, 2018, 12:29:10 am
I'm all in favor a free press.  But your original post blamed Republicans.  It didn't mention that the Pentagon Papers showed the duplicity and lies of Democrat President Johnson and his Secretary of Defense McNamara who were the main cause of getting America into a major war in Vietnam.  Republican President Nixon was only responsible for defending the release of the papers publicly after the fact so that future secrets of government operations could be protected.  Republicans didn't start the war.  Democrats did.  I just wanted to set the record straight.

No, my original post stated accurately that many republican voters reactived nagatively when The Post opened to the public the overall Vietman campain including the way then reining president Nixon (a Republican if I am not mistaken) was hiding information from the public.

My post wasn't about the Vietnam war, it was about the way people react when the free press shares factual information against politicians these people support.

As you understood, it was clearly related to the way you keep criticizing the post when they share information you don't like about Trump.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 06, 2018, 01:07:29 am
... when the free press shares factual information against politicians...

Ah, the golden times of the past. Today, the press shares fake news.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 06, 2018, 08:21:53 am
Ah, the golden times of the past. Today, the press shares fake news.
At least Faux News does.   ;)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 06, 2018, 01:02:27 pm
I meant CNN, MSNBC, etc.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on July 06, 2018, 03:03:58 pm
I meant ...
Great illustration!  ;)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on July 06, 2018, 09:32:55 pm
Great illustration!  ;)

Gold :-)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2018, 12:28:41 am
Ah, the golden times of the past. Today, the press shares fake news.

Trump will remain in history as the person who redefined truth to mean “stories I like” and fake to mean “stories that tell the real truth about me”.  ;D

What a valuable asset to raise kids according to good old Republican values.  8)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2018, 01:07:06 am
Trump will remain in history as the person who redefined truth to mean “stories I like” and fake to mean “stories that tell the real truth about me”...

Maybe if you et al write that history.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 07, 2018, 01:34:24 am
Trump will remain in history as the person who redefined truth to mean “stories I like” and fake to mean “stories that tell the real truth about me”.  ;D

What a valuable asset to raise kids according to good old Republican values.  8)

Cheers,
Bernard

Most historians suggest you wait at least until the next generation before writing the meaning of current history or what actually happened.  We're all too involved to assess anything without prejudice.  Because if you ask me, I've never seen the media so anti-president and biased in 70 years.  :)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 07, 2018, 02:18:28 am
Most historians suggest you wait at least until the next generation before writing the meaning of current history or what actually happened.  We're all too involved to assess anything without prejudice.  Because if you ask me, I've never seen the media so anti-president and biased in 70 years.  :)

Me neither! I have never seen such a president in 70 years.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2018, 04:34:56 am
Most historians suggest you wait at least until the next generation before writing the meaning of current history or what actually happened.  We're all too involved to assess anything without prejudice.  Because if you ask me, I've never seen the media so anti-president and biased in 70 years.  :)

It really raises the question, what would a Republican president have to do for you to question its acts instead of questioning the way media comment about its acts?

Because although I think that solidarity btwn people managed by the state is a better solution for the people, I have lots of respect for the Republican values (entrepreneurship, freedom, autonomy, hard work, ethics,...)... but I don’t see how Trump impersionates these values at all.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 07, 2018, 08:30:00 am
It really raises the question, what would a Republican president have to do for you to question its acts instead of questioning the way media comment about its acts?

Because although I think that solidarity btwn people managed by the state is a better solution for the people, I have lots of respect for the Republican values (entrepreneurship, freedom, autonomy, hard work, ethics,...)... but I don’t see how Trump impersionates these values at all.

Cheers,
Bernard

Tribalism.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2018, 09:08:50 am
Me neither! I have never seen such a president in 70 years.

And that is exactly the point, Les. People wanted to try something completely different, because “same old, same old” was gradually leading in the direction they didn’t want to go.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2018, 09:15:23 am
... but I don’t see how Trump impersionates these values at all.

Which is completely irrelevant. It isn’t his endearing personality that people voted for, but his policy proposals. It sometimes takes a complete jerk to shake things up.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 07, 2018, 09:31:58 am
And that is exactly the point, Les. People wanted to try something completely different, because “same old, same old” was gradually leading in the direction they didn’t want to go.

There is actually some truth in that. Republicans and Democrats are two cheeks of the same bum that has been dumping on the ordinary person for decades. Unfortunately Trump will only be different in a bad sense - siphoning more cash to the rich and degrading the lives of the rest of the population. The diagnosis was correct but the treatment will only make the illness worse.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 07, 2018, 10:00:39 am
There is actually some truth in that. Republicans and Democrats are two cheeks of the same bum that has been dumping on the ordinary person for decades. Unfortunately Trump will only be different in a bad sense - siphoning more cash to the rich and degrading the lives of the rest of the population. The diagnosis was correct but the treatment will only make the illness worse.

But the evidence is that things are better in America.  The stock market is up, GDP growth is up, and  unemployment is down to the lowest in decades, the lowest unemployment ever for Blacks.  ISIS is gone for the most part.  You never read about them any more in the papers.  Taxes are reduced for most people.  We're talking about immigration although it isn't solved yet.  Stopping illegal immigration will help poor Americans get jobs or better paying jobs.  We're trying to restore free and fair trade which will help Americans retain jobs and help American businesses.  Of course, there's going to be a lot of disruption until that's settled.   War with North Korea is on the back burner and we're talking to them.  We're trying to get NATO nations to pay up what they're suppose too which will strengthen NATO and put more money into American's pockets.  Justices are being appointed to the supreme court who's decisions will reflect what the constitution says and not what their personal beliefs are. 

If you hate Trump no matter what, you'll never be able to see these things.  Trump the usurper, the anti-establishmentarian, has the audacity to not only be against Democrats, but Republicans too.  The American establishment, including media, cannot stand the fact that they're not in charge and are doing everything possible to destroy him.  They could win.  Then again they may not.  It's an interesting fight something we've never seen in at least my life.  Trump relishes in the brawl.  He loves giving as much as he takes, probably more.  Most mortals would back off.  Not him.  Frankly, I don't know how he takes all the heat. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 07, 2018, 10:49:47 am
But the evidence is that things are better in America.

You're spinning your wheels, Alan. These are people who will holler about the "evidence" when they're talking about global warming ('er, "climate change," since there isn't any global warming), but who haven't a clue abut economics, so even when the actual economic facts whop them in the face they don't get the message. And they never will.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 07, 2018, 12:14:25 pm
Your ramblings cast doubt on your understanding of the meaning of words. Economy? We shall see. Certainly sparking a world trade war is not a very good start. ISIS were a creation of US failure in Iraq and there is no sign of any improvement in the situation there so no doubt they will be back under a new flag shortly. Trump will soon meet Putin. If he continues to undermine NATO then we can be assured that the outcome will not be to anyone's advantage except Putim's. Domestically hevis a crook who is undermining democracy. On the world stage he is an imbecile who is wrecking the alliances the have kept us safe since WW2. Success? Not exactly.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 07, 2018, 12:20:54 pm
As I said, Jeremy: "they never will." Looks as if you're part of "they."
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 07, 2018, 12:30:59 pm
Your ramblings cast doubt on your understanding of the meaning of words. Economy? We shall see. Certainly sparking a world trade war is not a very good start. ISIS were a creation of US failure in Iraq and there is no sign of any improvement in the situation there so no doubt they will be back under a new flag shortly. Trump will soon meet Putin. If he continues to undermine NATO then we can be assured that the outcome will not be to anyone's advantage except Putim's. Domestically hevis a crook who is undermining democracy. On the world stage he is an imbecile who is wrecking the alliances the have kept us safe since WW2. Success? Not exactly.
If alliances are so important, then European countries should be paying what they said they would pay.  Apparently, they'd rather have the American taxpayer pay for European safety.  If Putin is such a threat, why is Germany reducing their spending on their military?  If alliances are so important, why does Europe charge higher tariffs than America?  Why don't you treat America as fair as we treat you?

The truth is Europe has taken advantage of American largesse for decades.  It hates Trump because he's called your bet and raised and you just want to go back to the way it was because it was cheaper for you and you made more money.  Trump's no fool.  He's the only politician working to protect and help America.  He doesn't care what you think of him like Obama did who continued to give away the store.  It's not personal.  It's about money.  You're just going to have to pay more. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 07, 2018, 02:25:15 pm
If alliances are so important, then European countries should be paying what they said they would pay.  Apparently, they'd rather have the American taxpayer pay for European safety.  If Putin is such a threat, why is Germany reducing their spending on their military?  If alliances are so important, why does Europe charge higher tariffs than America?  Why don't you treat America as fair as we treat you?

The truth is Europe has taken advantage of American largesse for decades.  It hates Trump because he's called your bet and raised and you just want to go back to the way it was because it was cheaper for you and you made more money.  Trump's no fool.  He's the only politician working to protect and help America.  He doesn't care what you think of him like Obama did who continued to give away the store.  It's not personal.  It's about money.  You're just going to have to pay more.

Actually, Germany is increasing their military budget. Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen last week in Washington reaffirmed Germany's commitment to significantly increasing its defense budget. Not being able to rely on USA, it's in their best interest to take care of their own affairs.

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-von-der-leyen-calls-for-more-nato-defense-spending/a-18551385

As to Europe's reaction to Trump, hate is not the right word. Appall, outrage and disbelief would be more correct.

As to Trump being no fool, you are right, fools would be insulted being grouped with Trump. That circus with separating adults and children is just the latest fiasco and evidence of poor judgement. Apart from being inhumane, it was a colossal waste of money and resources when they did it, and now it costs even more to undo it. Prime example of stupidity.  The trade war shenanigans are even more stupid. They have already caused harm and not only to China, but also to Americans and Canadians.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2018, 03:37:27 pm
Interesting to see the parallel btw the gun control and economic war topics.

Each gun owner thinks he is better off with a gun when the global stats are 100% clear that he isn’t because it increases significantly the odds himself (and others too) die from a firearm.

The same guys think that a US with a (temporarily) booming economy as a result of a trade war is good for itself when history unmistakably teaches us that it is going to backfire at the US (and other countries too).

When told so these guys feel like they are being ridiculed by a domestic and foreign elite.

See a pattern?

Well they didn’t understand the difference btwn global and local optimum in math class. Probably due to the budget cuts in teaching resulting from the philosophical idea that people should pay for their own education. A Republican belief...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2018, 03:48:16 pm
Actually, Germany is increasing their military budget....

Which only proves that Trump's pressure works.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 07, 2018, 03:53:18 pm
. . .a (temporarily) booming economy as a result of a trade war. . .

Hi Bernard, Please explain how you think the trade war is causing the boom.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2018, 04:08:26 pm
Hi Bernard, Please explain how you think the trade war is causing the boom.

The current boom isn’t yet the result of the trade war that is just starting, it is the result of some great American campanies, mostly in the tech domain (the Apples of this world) that are loved by customers worldwide, and of state driven spendings in defense. Another point is tax cuts for corporate entities that will further affect the lower incomes by moving basic services - such as education - to the private sector (where the richer will get great service).

I was projecting myself in the mind of the people who think that imposing taxes on BMWs will help domestic car manufacturers. But you may be right, there may never even be an actual boom in the first place, even if the trade war is started in hope that there will be a local one in the US.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 07, 2018, 04:19:19 pm
In other words, you misspoke (or miss-thought) when you said the trade war is causing the boom?

I know, it's hard for anyone to admit he screwed up.

And, wow, that's quite an explanation. Especially the part about the effects of tax cuts. Where did you take your courses in economics?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 07, 2018, 04:20:52 pm
If alliances are so important, then European countries should be paying what they said they would pay.  Apparently, they'd rather have the American taxpayer pay for European safety.  If Putin is such a threat, why is Germany reducing their spending on their military?  If alliances are so important, why does Europe charge higher tariffs than America?  Why don't you treat America as fair as we treat you?

The truth is Europe has taken advantage of American largesse for decades.  It hates Trump because he's called your bet and raised and you just want to go back to the way it was because it was cheaper for you and you made more money.  Trump's no fool.  He's the only politician working to protect and help America.  He doesn't care what you think of him like Obama did who continued to give away the store.  It's not personal.  It's about money.  You're just going to have to pay more.

Youve been listening to Faux News too much Alan. Perhaps you think that abusing allies (Trudeau, Merkel) is a recipe for success. It's not. It may be a recipe to get re-elected by the great unwashed. We'll see if the is of benefit to the US as a whole.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2018, 04:32:45 pm
In other words, you misspoke (or miss-thought) when you said the trade war is causing the boom?

I know, it's hard for anyone to admit he screwed up.

And, wow, that's quite an explanation. Especially the part about the effects of tax cuts. Where did you take your courses in economics?

Russ,

Ok, I see that you are not interested in debating, I’ll stop here.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 07, 2018, 04:55:18 pm
Which only proves that Trump's pressure works.

Yes, and they will buy more goods from Airbus, Thyssenkrupp, MBDA, British Aerospace, Leonardo (Italy).
I fail to see how that will help Joe The Plumber.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/buy-german-berlin-readies-defense-policy-907700
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2018, 05:05:36 pm
Quote
... I fail to see how that will help Joe The Plumber...

By not having to pay what Germany is going to pay now?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 07, 2018, 05:06:06 pm
Which only proves that Trump's pressure works.

Or not.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/01/news/nato-spending-donald-trump/index.html
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 07, 2018, 05:16:32 pm
Or not...

It would be interesting to see the breakdown between 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 so far.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 07, 2018, 05:44:45 pm
It would be interesting to see the breakdown between 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 so far.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/03/10/how-much-do-nato-member-nations-spend-on-defense/

Since 2014 most have increased spending, to meet the goal of 2% by 2024, as agreed.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on July 07, 2018, 06:32:54 pm
Where did you take your courses in economics?

Where did you take yours, Russ?  For me, The University of New South Wales (undergrad) and Charles Sturt University (postgrad), plus 13.5 years in international trade finance and banking (from junior clerk to national level management).  And there are at least two people who immediately spring to mind on this forum who have higher qualifications and more experience than me.

So, what are your qualifications and experience since you've twice in this thread cast aspersions on others?  And before you jump to any conclusions about my views on the related questions due to political leanings, remember that I'm fiscally conservative (enough to make Slobodan comment on that fact).  So just lay out your qualifications before you keep calling for others (and having been alive isn't a catch all qualification for every opinion that you have).
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Farmer on July 07, 2018, 06:35:31 pm
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/03/10/how-much-do-nato-member-nations-spend-on-defense/
Since 2014 most have increased spending, to meet the goal of 2% by 2024, as agreed.

And that's why Trump was full of it the entire time.  They already had an agreed plan to increase spending over a period but he just kept making up his own version claiming they weren't spending as agreed by ignoring the target dates and then compared total US expenditure instead of the portion on NATO (just to compound the BS). 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 07, 2018, 06:45:38 pm
By not having to pay what Germany is going to pay now?

I still fail to see how the increased military purchases from German defense contractors will help Joe. But let me explain it from my very own personal perspective.
I am in favor and active participant in the Northamerican trade. Just today, I bought two pounds of California strawberries and three pounds of Washington cherries. Excellent stuff. Sweet, juicy and cheaper than the Ontario equivalent produce. I don't know how the American farmers can do it - most likely due to cheap Mexican labor and high degree of mechanization in their operations.
 
Munching on the strawberries, I glanced at my retirement stock portfolio and noticed that one of my positions (Linamar - an established, solid and profitable Canadian car part manufacturer supplying both the US and Canadian car plants) due to the looming car trade war dropped about 30% in value. That unfortunate development (and I suspect few more like that will be coming if somebody won't enlighten soon Trump in basic rules of economy) may cause me to reevaluate my purchasing habits and sway me towards Mexican papayas and Costa Rica bananas.  Unfortunately, such purchasing changes will affect also the American farmers and indirectly also the plumbers in the US agricultural regions.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 07, 2018, 09:32:04 pm
And that's why Trump was full of it the entire time.  They already had an agreed plan to increase spending over a period but he just kept making up his own version claiming they weren't spending as agreed by ignoring the target dates and then compared total US expenditure instead of the portion on NATO (just to compound the BS). 
Obama complained too that Germany is increasing their spending too slowly.  They aren't meeting its commitments.  The 2% by 2024 promise is voluntary.   That isn't acceptable.  Frankly, we don't trust Germany.  Why can France and broke Greece make the 2% and the richest country in Europe, Germany,  refuses?  There's no requirement that the US has to pay for all that defense.  You take it for granted that somehow we owe it to you.  Europe is rich enough to defend itself.  Stop pleading poverty or Trump should just remove a division or two.  That will get your attention.   American taxpayers are tired of subsidizing rich nations who refuse to defend themselves. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 07, 2018, 09:41:15 pm
I still fail to see how the increased military purchases from German defense contractors will help Joe. But let me explain it from my very own personal perspective.
I am in favor and active participant in the Northamerican trade. Just today, I bought two pounds of California strawberries and three pounds of Washington cherries. Excellent stuff. Sweet, juicy and cheaper than the Ontario equivalent produce. I don't know how the American farmers can do it - most likely due to cheap Mexican labor and high degree of mechanization in their operations.
 
Munching on the strawberries, I glanced at my retirement stock portfolio and noticed that one of my positions (Linamar - an established, solid and profitable Canadian car part manufacturer supplying both the US and Canadian car plants) due to the looming car trade war dropped about 30% in value. That unfortunate development (and I suspect few more like that will be coming if somebody won't enlighten soon Trump in basic rules of economy) may cause me to reevaluate my purchasing habits and sway me towards Mexican papayas and Costa Rica bananas.  Unfortunately, such purchasing changes will affect also the American farmers and indirectly also the plumbers in the US agricultural regions.

Les, Maybe you can take our illegal Mexicans to Canada to handle your strawberry crop?  That way we'll solve our illegal immigration problem and you'll have sweeter fruits to eat.  :)

Regarding higher American tariffs, Trump isn't interested in keeping them.  He's using them as an initial negotiation gambit.  If all the other countries would lower their tariffs to meet our lower ones, or all sides get rid of tariffs completely, the whole dispute would be over.  Then your investments would be back to normal as will trade.  Even better. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 07, 2018, 09:55:53 pm
And that's why Trump was full of it the entire time.  They already had an agreed plan to increase spending over a period but he just kept making up his own version claiming they weren't spending as agreed by ignoring the target dates and then compared total US expenditure instead of the portion on NATO (just to compound the BS). 

Germany admits that they will only increase their defense  spending to 1.5% of GDP by 2025, well short of the 2% they promised by 2024.  Here's an article by Reuters which Bart always assures me is the most trustworthy of sources.  Thanks Bart. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-military-nato/germany-aims-to-spend-15-percent-of-gdp-on-defense-by-2025-minister-idUSKCN1IF22U

"BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will tell NATO in July that it expects to boost military spending to around 1.5 percent of gross domestic product by 2025, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen told Germany’s top military brass on Monday.

That would mark a significant increase from the current percentage of 1.2 percent, but would still fall short of a NATO target calling for its members to move toward spending 2 percent of GPD on defense by 2024."
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 07, 2018, 10:20:15 pm
Obama complained too that Germany is increasing their spending too slowly.  They aren't meeting its commitments.  The 2% by 2024 promise is voluntary.   That isn't acceptable.  Frankly, we don't trust Germany.  Why can France and broke Greece make the 2% and the richest country in Europe, Germany,  refuses?  There's no requirement that the US has to pay for all that defense.  You take it for granted that somehow we owe it to you.  Europe is rich enough to defend itself.  Stop pleading poverty or Trump should just remove a division or two.  That will get your attention.   American taxpayers are tired of subsidizing rich nations who refuse to defend themselves.

It looks like Germany is gradually increasing their military budget. So no need to worry. Personally, I would be more concerned if their military spending goes up too quickly and over 2%. I happen to agree with Ursula von der Leyen who says it's more important how you spend that money and not how much you spend. BTW, she is also quite pretty for a defense minister. And I'm sure that she would think twice before wasting over $200 million on questionable Tomahawk missions.
 
https://www.politico.eu/article/german-defense-minister-ursula-von-der-leyen-strikes-back-on-donald-trump-nato-spending-target/

Quote
Regarding higher American tariffs, Trump isn't interested in keeping them.  He's using them as an initial negotiation gambit.  If all the other countries would lower their tariffs to meet our lower ones, or all sides get rid of tariffs completely, the whole dispute would be over.  Then your investments would be back to normal as will trade.  Even better.

Regarding the car tariffs, I think also that Trump's initial announcement is only the first salvo in the coming negotiation, but sometimes these things can turn out drastically different than originally intended, so hopefully, they will all smarten up and get rid quickly of all car tarrifs. I drive an old but trusty Dodge van. But it is getting also rusty, so if their new prices will increase, I might look at a Japanese or Korean replacement instead. Coincidentally, last time I visited my friends in USA, their recommendations were Nissan Altima and Hyundai Sante Fe.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 07, 2018, 11:02:13 pm
It looks like Germany is gradually increasing their military budget. So no need to worry. Personally, I would be more concerned if their military spending goes up too quickly and over 2%. I happen to agree with Ursula von der Leyen who says it's more important how you spend that money and not how much you spend. BTW, she is also quite pretty for a defense minister. And I'm sure that she would think twice before wasting over $200 million on questionable Tomahawk missions.
 
https://www.politico.eu/article/german-defense-minister-ursula-von-der-leyen-strikes-back-on-donald-trump-nato-spending-target/

Regarding the car tariffs, I think also that Trump's initial announcement is only the first salvo in the coming negotiation, but sometimes these things can turn out drastically different than originally intended, so hopefully, they will all smarten up and get rid quickly of all car tarrifs. I drive an old but trusty Dodge van. But it is getting also rusty, so if their new prices will increase, I might look at a Japanese or Korean replacement instead. Coincidentally, last time I visited my friends in USA, their recommendations were Nissan Altima and Hyundai Sante Fe.

Les, Please read my last post where that pretty lady said Germany would only meet 1.5% by 2025.  You're just a patsy when it comes to a pretty face.  :)

Regarding cars, my wife and I drive Japanese Acuras.  I'm sorry to say I haven't bought or leased an American car in years. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 08, 2018, 12:29:12 am
Les, Please read my last post where that pretty lady said Germany would only meet 1.5% by 2025.  You're just a patsy when it comes to a pretty face.  :)

Regarding cars, my wife and I drive Japanese Acuras.  I'm sorry to say I haven't bought or leased an American car in years.

Alan, I'm not that shallow. But before the next summit I'd like to state my preference to discuss Leopard tanks with Ursula rather than the car tariffs with Angela.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 08, 2018, 12:50:12 am
What would get your attention is Russian tanks rolling over Germany and Russian missiles a whole lot closer to home. Defending Europe is not a charity.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 08, 2018, 12:59:00 am
What would get your attention is Russian tanks rolling over Germany and Russian missiles a whole lot closer to home. Defending Europe is not a charity.

As a matter of fact, I witnessed Russian tanks rolling into the former Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1968. Nobody lifted a finger at that time.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 08, 2018, 02:57:32 am
As a matter of fact, I witnessed Russian tanks rolling into the former Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1968. Nobody lifted a finger at that time.

Quite. So if Trump collapses NATO we can anticipate that piece of history to be repeated.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 03:55:59 am
As if pleasing the defense lobby had had nothing to do with all this...

Mr. Trump is just negotiating with Lockeed Martin.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: LesPalenik on July 08, 2018, 03:59:06 am
Quite. So if Trump collapses NATO we can anticipate that piece of history to be repeated.

You may be right, there are some parallels between one clown and liar with a loud mouth from late thirties and another lying clown with a loud mouth from the recent times.   Both sported ridiculous hair cuts, although one in black and the other in orange blond.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 08, 2018, 08:18:51 am
Tribalism.
Quite right.  there have been several fine books published withing the last seven or so years on this phenomenon.  Perhaps the best one is "Democracy for Realists: Why Elections Do Not Produce Responsive Government" by Achen and Bartels and that is their conclusion.  The discussion of the influence of shark attacks in New Jersey during 1915-16 and how this might have influenced the election in 1916 is most interesting.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 08, 2018, 08:22:41 am
Regarding cars, my wife and I drive Japanese Acuras.  I'm sorry to say I haven't bought or leased an American car in years.
Perhaps you are part of the problem that won't MAGA.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 08, 2018, 08:25:37 am
You may be right, there are some parallels between one clown and liar with a loud mouth from late thirties and another lying clown with a loud mouth from the recent times.   Both sported ridiculous hair cuts, although one in black and the other in orange blond.
Be very careful!  I tried to make this analogy on another thread and caused it to be locked and also received a reprimand from our moderator.  I do agree with your statement!!!
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 08, 2018, 08:28:04 am
Les, Maybe you can take our illegal Mexicans to Canada to handle your strawberry crop?  That way we'll solve our illegal immigration problem and you'll have sweeter fruits to eat.  :)

Regarding higher American tariffs, Trump isn't interested in keeping them.  He's using them as an initial negotiation gambit.  If all the other countries would lower their tariffs to meet our lower ones, or all sides get rid of tariffs completely, the whole dispute would be over.  Then your investments would be back to normal as will trade.  Even better.

The fruit picking areas all over Canada have been employing Mexican migrant (and elsewhere) workers for years. There is a decades-long well-established temporary worker program with infrastructure (housing, chartered flights, etc.) put in place to deal with it. Nothing new there.

As for the health of the current American economy, good, everyone hopes it continues. But business investment has always occurred in cycles, it's too soon to attribute this growth spurt to anything in particular. It may have been aided by the tax cuts, but it's hard to believe that they would have worked their way through already and that's even more true of tariffs. In the case of tariffs, it's a double-edged sword, lots or American businesses will be hurt by higher priced imports. It's complicated and it is why countries spend years ironing out the details of trade agreements. What matters more is that over the long term, since about the 1980s, middle-class income has stagnated. This is not changing. The swings in the economy occur against that constant backdrop.

I disagree with one poster above about imported strawberries. Local ones are far better and always have been. With strawberries, picking them at the right time is what matters. Niagara strawberries were always better and cheaper than the imported American ones. Even here in Ottawa, local farms produce fantastic fruit and the local grocery stores preferentially stock local berries because they are better and cheaper. There are strawberry plants now that give multiple crops up until about September, so I don't even have to rush to stuff myself in June. West coast American cherries, however, are just fantastic.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 08, 2018, 08:54:04 am
Obama complained too that Germany is increasing their spending too slowly.  They aren't meeting its commitments.  The 2% by 2024 promise is voluntary.   That isn't acceptable.  Frankly, we don't trust Germany.  Why can France and broke Greece make the 2% and the richest country in Europe, Germany,  refuses?  There's no requirement that the US has to pay for all that defense.  You take it for granted that somehow we owe it to you.  Europe is rich enough to defend itself.  Stop pleading poverty or Trump should just remove a division or two.  That will get your attention.   American taxpayers are tired of subsidizing rich nations who refuse to defend themselves.

Careful what you wish for. There are 700+ American military bases in over 125 countries. You didn't do that because other countries asked you to (although I'm sure some did), you did it because it suited your interests.

So now you want other countries to take up the slack. I understand, so do I. In one specific case, I find it repulsive that there isn't a constant Canadian naval military presence in the Arctic. However, once all those allies increase their defence spending, they will then have their own independent military power. You seem to assume that they will all continue to adhere to American policy. Some might, some might not. If they start to view their American partner as unstable and unreliable (thanks to Mr. T, who may just be a temporary aberration of course), some may start to view things differently. If you want to maintain alliances with people with whom you have common interests, it's best not to treat them like enemies.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 08, 2018, 09:37:13 am
Be very careful!  I tried to make this analogy on another thread and caused it to be locked and also received a reprimand from our moderator.  I do agree with your statement!!!

Maybe you ought to study some history, Alan, before you agree with that statement.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 11:13:23 am
What would get your attention is Russian tanks rolling over Germany and Russian missiles a whole lot closer to home. Defending Europe is not a charity.
You're right .  It isn't charity.  So why isn't Germany, the richest nation in Europe, and the other 23 slackers, meeting their defense requirements and promises?  It seems they'd rather let American taxpayers pay for their defense.  Where's their pride?  Don't they care enough about their own countries they're willing to defend them instead of depending on America?  This isn't the Cold War any longer.  The Soviet Union is no more and Eastern Europe is free.  It's not 1948 when Europe was devastated and needed rebuilding.  Today it can easily afford defense expenditures.  But they grown too conditioned to let America carry the load.  They figure let's just have the stupid Americans to keep paying our military bills.  Europe's GNP is as large as America's. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=nato+countries+defense+expenditures&num=20&rlz=1T4GGHP_enUS577US577&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHy-7y4o_cAhWJr1kKHcjgCOcQ_AUICygC&biw=1350&bih=719#imgrc=um00MSXPmIwyHM:&spf=1531062290647

Yet except for 4 countries, are not meeting their 2% payments.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.fs.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-b5364470b65c285ca26f1ff052124660-c&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FHow-does-the-U-S-military-budget-compare-to-those-of-other-countries&docid=Ji4nTN1L0PcN3M&tbnid=6955ZdcW3OCYTM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj4_Yne5I_cAhWjxVkKHfYOAJkQMwhoKCAwIA..i&w=602&h=413&bih=719&biw=1350&q=nato%20countries%20defense%20expenditures&ved=0ahUKEwj4_Yne5I_cAhWjxVkKHfYOAJkQMwhoKCAwIA&iact=mrc&uact=8

America can't afford all these military costs like we use too.  Once we were the largest creditor nation in the world.  Today we're the largest debtor nation in the world.  The fact is America will have $1 trillion deficit this year.  We're $21 trillion in debt.  Our trade deficit will be around $800 billion this year.  (Well trade is another discussion).  We should just pull out a division or two.  That will wake Europe up.   

Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 08, 2018, 12:22:10 pm
As if pleasing the defense lobby had had nothing to do with all this...

Mr. Trump is just negotiating with Lockeed Martin.

Bingo. At least some are paying attention.

Wasting money on military spending is easy enough, look at the USA. Spending it wisely is a whole lot more challenging.

That's also why lifting the sanctions for the invasion of Crimea is counterproductive, the next US foreign policy blunder in the making.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: degrub on July 08, 2018, 12:24:01 pm
maybe it would...
The issue is imperious Russia is stretching its fingers to grasp strategic opportunities when they are available cheaply - perhaps Crimea is one - while the West is slumbering in somnolence. The united states of Europe does not exist despite Churchill's vision and hope.

China is on the same path to resturn to historic regional dominance and grandeur.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 08, 2018, 12:28:57 pm
China is on the same path to return to historic regional dominance and grandeur.

Not limited to only regional ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 12:34:58 pm
maybe it would...
The issue is imperious Russia is stretching its fingers to grasp strategic opportunities when they are available cheaply - perhaps Crimea is one - while the West is slumbering in somnolence. The united states of Europe does not exist despite Churchill's vision and hope.

China is on the same path to resturn to historic regional dominance and grandeur.

Exactly.  European countries are all bark and no bite.  The Serbian War, in Europe's back yard, was allowed to fester and continue by other European countries until America stepped in.  If the EU means anything it should be about joint protection and handling business in their own spheres of influence.  They've grown lazy with wealth and dependence on America, a bad situation for both them and America.  WWII ended 70 years ago.  The Soviets are gone 30 years.   It's time for them to step up to the bat. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 08, 2018, 01:59:56 pm
You may be right, there are some parallels between one clown and liar with a loud mouth from late thirties and another lying clown with a loud mouth from the recent times.   Both sported ridiculous hair cuts, although one in black and the other in orange blond.

Be very careful!  I tried to make this analogy on another thread and caused it to be locked and also received a reprimand from our moderator.  I do agree with your statement!!!

And it will happen again. Nazi comparisons are the refuge of those bereft of logical argument, who mistakenly regard them somehow as trump cards (no, that's not a joke), defeating other argument; and they are highly offensive to many, including those who lost relatives in camps.

The next person to indulge, whether directly or indirectly, will be banned.

Jeremy
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 08, 2018, 02:13:34 pm
. . .they are highly offensive to many, including those who lost relatives in camps.

And to those of us who were sentient during that war, and lost relatives and friends in the war itself. People who equate any group with the National Socialists (NAZIs) haven't a clue what the NAZIs were like. Even reading history probably isn't enough to give you a serious appreciation for how far from the mark your comparisons are.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 08, 2018, 02:25:31 pm
And to those of us who were sentient during that war, and lost relatives and friends in the war itself. People who equate any group with the National Socialists (NAZIs) haven't a clue what the NAZIs were like. Even reading history probably isn't enough to give you a serious appreciation for how far from the mark your comparisons are.

By talking about what we should not talk about, risks talking about it.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 08, 2018, 04:14:16 pm
Back to national parks... has anyone noticed that Trump donated his quarterly salary to... National Parks?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 04:19:37 pm
This Nato spending topic is truly hilarious.

If the US are spending too much, why does Trump not reduce US spendings today?

When a couple is going bankrupt, does the man who is over-spending on toys ask his wife to spend more to balance things up?  ;D

He has shown a great ability to take radical decisions on key topics, why not this one?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 08, 2018, 04:32:00 pm
Back to national parks... has anyone noticed that Trump donated his quarterly salary to... National Parks?

Good. I hope that's real. Easy to make promises, but I'll be convinced when the "fake news" old media reports that the cheque has cleared.  :)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 04:33:13 pm
And to those of us who were sentient during that war, and lost relatives and friends in the war itself. People who equate any group with the National Socialists (NAZIs) haven't a clue what the NAZIs were like. Even reading history probably isn't enough to give you a serious appreciation for how far from the mark your comparisons are.

Russ,

I agree with you 100% on this for many reasons.

Among them the fact that Trump has apparently no ideology besides money.

But we must understand that the comparison is drawn because there are always common characteristics amongst populist leaders playing with the basic fears and ignorance of voters. By telling US citizens “America first” he has defined a very strong “us vs them” chism, he is telling his voters “your problems come from Chinese or Europeans”.

The reality being that the lack of good public schools in poor neighborhoods/states isn’t because of BMW or American companies manufacturing goods in China, it is the result of public American money being used to fund the development of the F35.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 04:34:03 pm
This Nato spending topic is truly hilarious.

If the US are spending too much, why does Trump not reduce US spendings today?

When a couple is going bankrupt, does the man who is over-spending on toys ask his wife to spend more to balance things up?  ;D

He has shown a great ability to take radical decisions on key topics, why not this one?

Cheers,
Bernard


Trump may spend less on NATO.  I've been predicting for over a year that if Europe doesn't increase their spending, he's going to pull a division of American troops out of Europe.  May move a battalion over to countries that are meeting their 2% like Estonia or Poland.  Actually Greece would be better as the troops would love doing a tour in the Greek Isles.  We'll see if that wakes up Europeans.  Of course, liberals here and there will claim that Putin is blackmailing him so loathe are they for supporting anything that helps America if it has Trump's stamp on it. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 04:36:46 pm
Good. I hope that's real. Easy to make promises, but I'll be convinced when the "fake news" old media reports that the cheque has cleared.  :)
NY Times article. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/03/us/politics/national-park-service-trump-salary.html
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 04:40:19 pm
...


The reality being that the lack of good public schools in poor neighborhoods/states isn’t because of BMW or American companies manufacturing goods in China, it is the result of public American money being used to fund the development of the F35.

Cheers,
Bernard

You're arguing for America to pull out of NATO, let Europe defend itself, and save on our military expenses which could better be used for social programs or to lower taxes.  Be careful.  Trump is listening.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 04:40:50 pm
Trump may spend less on NATO.  I've been predicting for over a year that if Europe doesn't increase their spending, he's going to pull a division of American troops out of Europe.  May move a battalion over to countries that are meeting their 2% like Estonia or Poland.  Actually Greece would be better as the troops would love doing a tour in the Greek Isles.  We'll see if that wakes up Europeans.  Of course, liberals here and there will claim that Putin is blackmailing him so loathe are they for supporting anything that helps America if it has Trump's stamp on it.

Russ,

This would still be pocket change.

Why not go big on this? Why not withdraw all troops?

What about the 70,000 soldiers stationed in Okinawa?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 08, 2018, 04:41:28 pm
NY Times article. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/03/us/politics/national-park-service-trump-salary.html

Thanks, that's good news.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 04:42:59 pm
You're arguing for America to pull out of NATO, let Europe defend itself, and save on our military expenses which could better be used for social programs or to lower taxes.  Be careful.  Trump is listening.

Yes, exactly.

Why is this not happening?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 04:43:29 pm
Russ,

This would still be pocket change.

Why not go big on this? Why not withdraw all troops?

What about the 70,000 soldiers stationed in Okinawa?

Cheers,
Bernard

China's a bigger threat to the west than Russia.  However, I think Trump's heart is into a Fortress America.  Sort of like a Trump Tower of international relations.  :)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: degrub on July 08, 2018, 04:45:08 pm
Yes, exactly.

Why is this not happening?

Cheers,
Bernard

P-U-T-I-N
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 04:48:31 pm
Yes, exactly.

Why is this not happening?

Cheers,
Bernard

Well what is it you want?  and Why?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 05:06:46 pm
Well what is it you want?  and Why?

How is what I want at all relevant in this discussion about the deeds of Trump?

Isn’t your view, as the most faithful Trump supporter, a lot more relevant? At least you should hope that your views are relevant, shouldn’t you?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 05:22:53 pm
China's a bigger threat to the west than Russia.  However, I think Trump's heart is into a Fortress America.  Sort of like a Trump Tower of international relations.  :)

Like a big wall financed by Europe? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 08, 2018, 09:53:27 pm
How is what I want at all relevant in this discussion about the deeds of Trump?

Isn’t your view, as the most faithful Trump supporter, a lot more relevant? At least you should hope that your views are relevant, shouldn’t you?

Cheers,
Bernard

This thread isn't only about the deeds of TRump or his thinking why he does things.  And while I appreciate you like to understand my views, I too want to know your views.  Otherwise you'll be like all the other Trump complainers.  Complaining about what he does without suggesting ways of solving problems on your own.  For example, North Korea.  So many complain that his meeting with Kim was stupid, won;t accomplish anything etc.   But what are their suggestions to prevent war and de-fang Kim?  They have none.  Even Obama did nothing kicking the can down the road.  There are always people sitting on the sidelines throwing tomatoes at others who are at least trying to solve problems.  People may not like what Trump does; sometimes I disagree with him as well.  But at least he's trying to do something.  Things are happening.  He may turn out to be the most consequential president in a long time.  (Duck.  Here come the tomatoes.)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 09, 2018, 12:36:50 am
There are always people sitting on the sidelines throwing tomatoes at others who are at least trying to solve problems.  People may not like what Trump does; sometimes I disagree with him as well.  But at least he's trying to do something.

I don't believe that most of what he is doing is going in the right direction. Nor for the world (my selfish interest), nor for the US (my empathy for all my US and foreign friends living there).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 09, 2018, 01:15:35 am
Actually Greece would be better as the troops would love doing a tour in the Greek Isles. 

Greece's defence spending is so high because they have to defend themselves against a Turkey that is armed to the teeth by our good allies the US.  The US supported the fascist side in the Greek civil war, post 1945, so their military base was closed down by the Papandreou government and will not be opening again.

In fact the US troops anywhere serve only as a human tripwire to reassure the local population that if the Russian tanks roll in there will be US casualties that require a serious response.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 09, 2018, 07:30:43 am
Complaining about what he does without suggesting ways of solving problems on your own.  For example, North Korea.  So many complain that his meeting with Kim was stupid, won;t accomplish anything etc.   But what are their suggestions to prevent war and de-fang Kim? 
Ignore North Korea as it will implode at some point in the future as most totalitarian regimes.  It does not present any kind of security risk to the United States and all the efforts put into the recent "summit" only added to the legitimacy of the regime as is evident by the recent statements following Pompeo's visit.  The same thing happened with the former Soviet Union, and while popular lore has it that the 'Star Wars' threat announced by President Reagan was responsible for breaking it apart, more nuanced observers such as my good friend Murray Feshbach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Feshbach) saw the writing on the wall much earlier.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Robert Roaldi on July 09, 2018, 07:34:30 am
This thread isn't only about the deeds of TRump or his thinking why he does things.  And while I appreciate you like to understand my views, I too want to know your views.  Otherwise you'll be like all the other Trump complainers.  Complaining about what he does without suggesting ways of solving problems on your own.  For example, North Korea.  So many complain that his meeting with Kim was stupid, won;t accomplish anything etc.   But what are their suggestions to prevent war and de-fang Kim?  They have none.  Even Obama did nothing kicking the can down the road.  There are always people sitting on the sidelines throwing tomatoes at others who are at least trying to solve problems.  People may not like what Trump does; sometimes I disagree with him as well.  But at least he's trying to do something.  Things are happening.  He may turn out to be the most consequential president in a long time.  (Duck.  Here come the tomatoes.)

Trump is trying to SOLVE problems? Okay, maybe he is but it sure is hard keeping it all straight when his pronouncements change every 5 minutes with no clear goal in sight.

As for him getting criticized, well, what was he expecting. He's the Prez of the US, criticism comes with the territory.

It must not be easy to keep making excuses for him after the long and seemingly never-ending trail of firings and resignations of people in important positions. Even you have to admit, these aren't good signs.

You keep mentioning N. Korea. What, EXACTLY, was his success there? Did N. Korea agree to dismantle their nuclear program and allow international inspectors on site. Because Iran did agree EXACTLY to that and was abiding by the terms. But Trump unilaterally threw out the Iran deal, and no one seems to know why or at least I've never heard a good explanation. These behaviours seem to me to be foreigner-bashing as distraction. When in doubt find an enemy overseas.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 09, 2018, 08:16:45 am
I don't believe that most of what he is doing is going in the right direction. Nor for the world (my selfish interest), nor for the US (my empathy for all my US and foreign friends living there).

Cheers,
Bernard


If non-Americans don't like what America is doing, that means it must be good for America.  It's not personal.  I understand where you're coming from.  If I were a European for example, I'd be angry at some of the things Trump's doing too as he's going to cost me money and restrict access.  For example: 2% NATO means less social programs for Europeans, trying to lower your foreign tariffs on our exports, putting tariffs on your products like you do on ours, restrict and regulate immigration, building walls, opening up America to produce more American oil, reducing regulations to make our products cheaper against other countries', etc.

Of course he's doing some stuff like increasing military spending that is good for our allies as it assures more protection for you against an expanding Russia or China. 


The other policies are for domestic effect only (ie. Obamacare) and doesn't effect other countries. So non-American arguments against them is butting in to things that aren't any of your business. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 09, 2018, 08:20:00 am
Greece's defence spending is so high because they have to defend themselves against a Turkey that is armed to the teeth by our good allies the US.  The US supported the fascist side in the Greek civil war, post 1945, so their military base was closed down by the Papandreou government and will not be opening again.

In fact the US troops anywhere serve only as a human tripwire to reassure the local population that if the Russian tanks roll in there will be US casualties that require a serious response.

A lot of Americans have grown tired of being a trip wire in Europe and spending our blood and treasure on others who refuse to defend themselves. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 09, 2018, 08:27:54 am
Ignore North Korea as it will implode at some point in the future as most totalitarian regimes.  It does not present any kind of security risk to the United States and all the efforts put into the recent "summit" only added to the legitimacy of the regime as is evident by the recent statements following Pompeo's visit.  The same thing happened with the former Soviet Union, and while popular lore has it that the 'Star Wars' threat announced by President Reagan was responsible for breaking it apart, more nuanced observers such as my good friend Murray Feshbach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Feshbach) saw the writing on the wall much earlier.

I agree with you that North Korea should just be left alone to stew in their own juices.  Starting a war doesn't make sense because I too agree they're not going to attack.  On the other hand, a nuclear armed Korea may encourage  other countries to develop the A bomb - Japan, etc.  DO we need more A bombs in the world?  Also, NK might sell their nuclear and missile technology to others, something none of us need. (ie Iran) I don;t think talking to them has much to lose even if nothing happens in the end.  If it does work, and we could reduce tensions more.  What's wrong with that?
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 09, 2018, 08:37:22 am
Trump is trying to SOLVE problems? Okay, maybe he is but it sure is hard keeping it all straight when his pronouncements change every 5 minutes with no clear goal in sight.

As for him getting criticized, well, what was he expecting. He's the Prez of the US, criticism comes with the territory.

It must not be easy to keep making excuses for him after the long and seemingly never-ending trail of firings and resignations of people in important positions. Even you have to admit, these aren't good signs.

You keep mentioning N. Korea. What, EXACTLY, was his success there? Did N. Korea agree to dismantle their nuclear program and allow international inspectors on site. Because Iran did agree EXACTLY to that and was abiding by the terms. But Trump unilaterally threw out the Iran deal, and no one seems to know why or at least I've never heard a good explanation. These behaviours seem to me to be foreigner-bashing as distraction. When in doubt find an enemy overseas.

There's nothing confusing about what he's doing.  It's pretty much everything he said he do during the campaign.  Read my 8:16 post.

Regarding his staff, he's fired people who haven;t worked out or have become creatures of the Washington swamp like Pruitt.  That too was a campaign promise.   He's kept effective subordinates like Secr. of Defence Mattis,  and most of his economic advisers and added some others. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 09, 2018, 09:41:47 am
A lot of Americans have grown tired of being a trip wire in Europe and spending our blood and treasure on others who refuse to defend themselves.

Then you need to think a little harder, and understand that by defending Europe you defend yourselves. 
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 09, 2018, 09:49:02 am
Then you need to think a little harder, and understand that by defending Europe you defend yourselves. 

The only thing we would need to “defend ourselves” by defending Europe, is to defend Europe form the invasion. Human, not a tank one. But Europe is apparently working directly against us in that respect.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Klein on July 09, 2018, 09:56:22 am
Then you need to think a little harder, and understand that by defending Europe you defend yourselves. 

I said: "A lot of Americans have grown tired of being a trip wire in Europe and spending our blood and treasure on others who refuse to defend themselves."   The fact is defending Europe does more for Europe then it does for us.  The Soviet Union is gone.  Russia is not seen as a threat to us.  Or you.  It appears you don;t seriously believe Russia is a threat.  You're dependent on them for oil and gas. They buy from you.  If they were such a threat, why does Germany and 22 other NATO countries scrimp on their military budgets?   You're taking advantage of America.    All this nonsense that America is safer is just a way to BS Americans into spending money on European defense and saving money for Europeans to spend on themselves for social services.  You could BS Obama, Hillary, and other past presidents, but not Trump the Cheapskate.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: RSL on July 09, 2018, 09:58:06 am
Unless what's left of its original people rise up and throw out the European establishment, all of Europe will be under Sharia law in two more generations. The United States won't be able to do a damn thing about this unless we send a (male) army over there to impregnate European women and put a stop to the rapid disappearance of Europe's current residents.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: stamper on July 09, 2018, 10:11:32 am
Unless what's left of its original people rise up and throw out the European establishment, all of Europe will be under Sharia law in two more generations. The United States won't be able to do a damn thing about this unless we send a (male) army over there to impregnate European women and put a stop to the rapid disappearance of Europe's current residents.

The USA is a mongrel race therefore no pure racial continuation.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 09, 2018, 10:46:07 am
... unless we send a (male) army over there to impregnate European women...

Too late, Russ. Someone else has already sent that army ;)
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 09, 2018, 01:38:38 pm
I said: "A lot of Americans have grown tired of being a trip wire in Europe and spending our blood and treasure on others who refuse to defend themselves."   The fact is defending Europe does more for Europe then it does for us.  The Soviet Union is gone.  Russia is not seen as a threat to us.  Or you.  It appears you don;t seriously believe Russia is a threat.  You're dependent on them for oil and gas. They buy from you.  If they were such a threat, why does Germany and 22 other NATO countries scrimp on their military budgets?   You're taking advantage of America.    All this nonsense that America is safer is just a way to BS Americans into spending money on European defense and saving money for Europeans to spend on themselves for social services.  You could BS Obama, Hillary, and other past presidents, but not Trump the Cheapskate.

Like I said elsewhere - Trump has managed to fool a certain segment of the electorate. Your choice.

Here in the real world we're dealing with the results of US foreign involvement in the middle east. I cant say that that little foray has done much for my safety.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 09, 2018, 01:39:43 pm
If non-Americans don't like what America is doing, that means it must be good for America. 

Brilliant logic, Alan.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 09, 2018, 01:42:08 pm
Unless what's left of its original people rise up and throw out the European establishment, all of Europe will be under Sharia law in two more generations..

A foolish comment, not least because most of the current immigration of Muslims into Europe is fuelled by US wars in Iraq and consequent upheaval in Syria.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 09, 2018, 01:45:27 pm
Quote
Regarding his staff, he's fired people who haven;t worked out or have become creatures of the Washington swamp like Pruitt.  That too was a campaign promise.

What? He promised to hire crooks? Well he certainly kept that one!
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on July 09, 2018, 01:45:54 pm
... Here in the real world we're dealing with the results of US foreign involvement in the middle east...

I'll give you that.

But how is that Trump's fault? If anything, it is a cumulative result of years of experts' (vs. amateurs like him) policies on both sides of the aisle. All those academic, eloquent, elite, educated, life-long career, "supremely qualified" experts that recommended and implemented those policies, and yet the end result is a total mess.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: jeremyrh on July 09, 2018, 01:48:41 pm
I'll give you that.

But how is that Trump's fault? If anything, it is a cumulative result of years of experts' (vs. amateurs like him) policies on both sides of the aisle. All those academic, eloquent, elite, educated, life-long career, "supremely qualified" experts that recommended and implemented those policies, and yet the end result is a total mess.

Agreed. It's not his fault any more than it's Obama etc.
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on July 09, 2018, 02:04:28 pm
A foolish comment, not least because most of the current immigration of Muslims into Europe is fuelled by US wars in Iraq and consequent upheaval in Syria.
Spot on comment and it goes all the way back to the secret Sykes/Picot Agreement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement) that was made during WW I.  Also, let's not forget that some of the migration was a result of needing more workers in certain European countries beginning in the 1970s (Morroccans coming to Holland and Turks to Germany).  Many of the immigrants to England and France were a result of agreements resulting from colonial or Commonwealth 'holdings.'
Title: Re: The man in charge of the National Parks has his friggin' hat on backwards!
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on July 09, 2018, 02:12:52 pm
This thread has now drifted sufficiently far from its topic, insofar as the right way to wear a hat can be considered a topic, that it is time it ceased to be.

Jeremy