Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: OmerV on June 26, 2018, 10:20:28 am

Title: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: OmerV on June 26, 2018, 10:20:28 am
...or maybe not. Given our Dear Leaderís penchant for capricious fun, todayís criticism may be tomorrowís return to approval. But Wall Street may yet throw up a fur ball at His Eminenceís dysfunctional preening.

And with both Melania and Ivanka as cheerleaders, all together now, ďI really donít care, do U?Ē

Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Rob C on June 26, 2018, 10:48:15 am
But she really did make that blue outfit look good on her husband's big day.

:-)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Peter McLennan on June 26, 2018, 11:27:13 am
The irony of it being HD to be among the first to "show the white flag" is nothing if not delightful.  8)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 26, 2018, 11:42:33 am
The true irony is that Harley Davidson some years ago asked the government for tariffs against Japanese/European competitors and got them.

Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: OmerV on June 26, 2018, 12:54:09 pm
The true irony is that Harley Davidson some years ago asked the government for tariffs against Japanese/European competitors and got them.

Yes. And now that the American market for H-D 'cycles is shrinking, it needs to go overseas like other American companies have done. Setting up manufacturing facilities in other countries may be the only choice H-D has. It will be interesting to see how both H-D and Trump will work with the many Americans who support both.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 26, 2018, 04:06:56 pm
Trump Threatens Harley Davidson (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/06/26/trump-threatens-harley-davidson-with-taxes-like-never-before-and-eventual-collapse/?utm_term=.fd25f2589765)

Just posting a link and will not comment or respond otherwise.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: RSL on June 26, 2018, 04:12:59 pm
That tendentious link is your "comment," Alan.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Farmer on June 26, 2018, 05:51:37 pm
That tendentious link is your "comment," Alan.

The only real controversy is the way Trump abuses and name-calls and threatens and thinks that's an appropriate way to use his office.  The article was highly factual and reasonable.  You might feel it's left-leaning attacks on your favourite orange-haired son, but for any reasonable, neutral observer - it's a very reasonable and responsible piece of journalism.  This is who Trump is and how he acts - fact.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 26, 2018, 06:13:57 pm
The only real controversy is the way Trump abuses and name-calls and threatens and thinks that's an appropriate way to use his office.  The article was highly factual and reasonable.  You might feel it's left-leaning attacks on your favourite orange-haired son, but for any reasonable, neutral observer - it's a very reasonable and responsible piece of journalism.  This is who Trump is and how he acts - fact.
Is this chastening of US companies by a US president to the pubic new (Alan?, Frans? Slobodan) and it's going to make American (companies and their employees) great again?
How about within a year and a half, 17 US companies?:
http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/04/news/companies/trump-companies-attacks/index.html

Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 26, 2018, 06:18:46 pm
The Jobs at Carrier that President Trump did not Save (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a20066498/carrier-factory-donald-trump-jobs/)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 26, 2018, 06:55:48 pm
I find this interesting because other than the cabal in the white house, is there anyone who thought that something good could come out of a trade war?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 26, 2018, 07:01:27 pm
The Jobs at Carrier that President Trump did not Save (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a20066498/carrier-factory-donald-trump-jobs/)
Some nice B&W shots. Let's attempt to provide 2% photography to 98% political comments on a photography site 'dedicated' to photography. :'(
Didn't realize that Popular Mechanics was such a left leaning (fake news) publication! Or so I suspect we'll hear.  ::)
ďMany of them voted for him. People heard what they needed to hear that day.Ē
Exactly what I posted from another 'left' (non WSJ) rag in the closed thread:
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 26, 2018, 07:03:53 pm
The Jobs at Carrier that President Trump did not Save (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a20066498/carrier-factory-donald-trump-jobs/)

So:

Quote
...720 jobs saved is 480 jobs lost...

How do we look at that?  Glass half-full or half-empty? Do we look at the jobs saved that are 50% larger than those lost and say it is a success? Or we say, nah, 480 lost jobs, utter failure? Or something in between? 

Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 26, 2018, 07:09:04 pm
So:

How do we look at that?  Glass half-full or half-empty? Do we look at the jobs saved that are 50% larger than those lost and say it is a success? Or we say, nah, 480 lost jobs, utter failure? Or something in between?
We look at the promise and what in reality happened, and despite the promise, the ambiguity about those jobs not lost and WHY, going full circle to the quote about people hear what the needed to hear:
Pinpointing the precise number of jobs saved, and the number sent away, is difficult. You have to account for a shifting number of seasonal employees, different figures provided by members of the union, the limited numbers shared by Carrier, and the political motivations of politicians. The union says it had 1,200 members at the Carrier plant. Trump claims to have struck a deal that saved 1,100.


It's not difficult to make promises that are not kept, and see people support again when people hear what they want to hear.
How many jobs will Trump affect by his unnecessary trade war (which is EASY to win)?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 26, 2018, 07:11:23 pm
Isn't it funny how attempt to intervene always end up with counter-productive side effects?

Of course, we could argue that the decision of Trump to impose additional taxes is 180 degrees opposed to the very ideal of Republicans in favor or less state... but we knew this already didn't we? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 26, 2018, 07:20:52 pm
...Trump claims to have struck a deal that saved 1,100....

Ok, let me rephrase:

How do we look at a promise/claim that was 2/3rds fulfilled? As a promise not kept? As a lie? Or as a promise partially fulfilled? 2/3rds sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 26, 2018, 07:24:52 pm
Ok, let me rephrase:

How do we look at a promise/claim that was 2/3rds fulfilled? As a promise not kept? As a lie? Or as a promise partially fulfilled? 2/3rds sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
Seems we either accept what we wish to accept, hear what we want to hear, or we accept there isnít a clear answer as indicated by the text I provided AND underlined. I donít honestly know. But I know what I donít know. Iím open to give credit if/when I know.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 26, 2018, 07:31:58 pm
As someone who was just two months ago laid off in Indiana, I have nothing but heartfelt sympathies for anyone who lost their jobs at Carrier (and elsewhere). Just wanted to make sure that it is not interpreted as if I am saying that 720 saved somehow diminishes the personal tragedies of the 480 lost.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 26, 2018, 07:41:09 pm
As someone who was just two months ago laid off in Indiana, I have nothing but heartfelt sympathies for anyone who lost their jobs at Carrier (and elsewhere).
I too have nothing but heartfelt sympathies for those as well. Itís basic compassion for our fellow man/women. I also have nothing but heartfelt sympathies for children separated from their parents.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 26, 2018, 07:47:36 pm
... I also have nothing but heartfelt sympathies for children separated from their parents.

+1
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Rand47 on June 26, 2018, 07:52:29 pm
I don't have anything much nice to say about our President's puerile behavior.

But I can say this.  If anyone thinks the current imposition of tariffs is "the" cause for HD contemplating doing mfg overseas, my guess is that is totally a naÔve notion.  Large companies are doing future projections several years ahead of actions taken.  They may have seized on the announcements to get the most spin from their decision, but the decision was made long ago I'm reasonably sure.

Actually, if I wanted to be cynical, I'd venture a guess that this timing of the announcement was probably a stroke of luck for HD.  Their own "fan base" here in the US is largely made up of folk who think "MADE IN USA" good.... Made anywhere else, CRAP."  where motorcycles are concerned.  (BMW being a possible exception amongst the Harley-ites.  There's some grudging respect there.)  So, to be able to "blame it on Trump" as the reason for the move will have the faithful pissed off at the Pres and not at HD for being "sell outs."

For the scooter fans out there, I've owned and ridden HD and BMW, so no bias there on my part.

Rand 
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Chris Kern on June 26, 2018, 08:29:31 pm
Isn't it funny how attempt in intervene always end up with counter-productive side effects?

Not always, just when the intervention is incompetent, and attempts to circumvent the long-accepted mechanisms for resolving international trade issues.

There's no question that economic "globalization" has displaced many workers in the United States.  And that quite a few of them were left behind in the economic recovery that took place during the Obama Administration.

The United States also has legitimate complaints about some of the tariff barriers erected by our major trading partners, including several European countries which still practice a form of dirigisme.  (Of course, the United States is not entirely blameless in this regard: Canadian dairy? American sugar.)

These are appropriate issues for the Trump Administration to address.

The problem is that the few senior appointive policy-makers in the Administration who appear to appreciate the complexities of international trade have either been pushed out or marginalized because el seŮor Loco has an aversion to expertise and to the give-and-take that inevitably must take place when different governments (especially democratic ones, but even autocratic governments such as China's) attempt to satisfy their respective domestic economic constituencies.

The United States was the prime mover behind the establishment of the World Trade Organization and its predecessor as forums to resolve these complex international issues and, historically, the United States has tended to do quite well when it brought disputes before them.  But bypassing the established international trade forum on the emotional whims of an erratic leader does indeed produce unexpected, but entirely unsurprising, results.

It's easy to start trade wars.  It's difficult to contain them.  The United States was largely responsible for creating a rules-based international trade system and now ó at least, for the moment ó the current national Administration seems to be abandoning it.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Two23 on June 26, 2018, 11:57:31 pm
I find this interesting because other than the cabal in the white house, is there anyone who thought that something good could come out of a trade war?


There will be no "trade war."   Remember that just a year ago the bash-Trump press was predicting a nuclear war with N. Korea.  The press has gone to hysterical limits with their hyperbole.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Klein on June 27, 2018, 12:51:40 am
The irony of it being HD to be among the first to "show the white flag" is nothing if not delightful.  8)

Exactly what I thought.  Rough and tumble HD.  A bunch of chickens. 
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Klein on June 27, 2018, 01:11:07 am

There will be no "trade war."   Remember that just a year ago the bash-Trump press was predicting a nuclear war with N. Korea.  The press has gone to hysterical limits with their hyperbole.


Kent in SD

I agree.  Trump isn't looking for a hot war with NK or an economic war with China or Europe. Trump starts negotiations with asking for everything and offering nothing.  He's learned he gets more in the end by being unreasonably tough to start with.  All he wants is for tariffs to be equal or non-existent for everyone.  America will be glad to compete on a fair and equal playing ground. 

His attacks on HD serves a purpose.  It sends a message to other American companies thinking about moving their plants overseas while he's battling for lower foreign tariffs.  That message is : Don't think about it or I will savage you.  Hang tough and I'll get them to lower their tariffs so you can compete better in those countries.  But you have to be firm and patient.  Don't betray me or America.   

American companies will think twice about moving at this time.  They don;t want the President's ire. 

Trump is so concerned because HD sends a message to foreign countries that their tariffs are working.  That they can wait to settle because America will blink first.  They'll wait us out extending the battle and lessen the chance for successful negotiations if not an outright trade war. 

The fact it's Harley Davidson running for cover at the first fusillade is really embarrassing I have to say being a fan of them all my life. 
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 27, 2018, 03:25:23 am
The fact it's Harley Davidson running for cover at the first fusillade is really embarrassing I have to say being a fan of them all my life.

HD is doing the right thing. They are considering creating local jobs where their bikes are being bought.

Obviously they have been strongly encouraged by the increased taxes resulting from Trump's decisions.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 27, 2018, 03:59:00 am
I also have nothing but heartfelt sympathies for children separated from their parents.

I have locked three threads on that topic and made it clear that I will lock any more. Do not attempt to reintroduce it here. It's not relevant to this discussion.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: OmerV on June 27, 2018, 07:38:28 am
I agree.  Trump isn't looking for a hot war with NK or an economic war with China or Europe. Trump starts negotiations with asking for everything and offering nothing.  He's learned he gets more in the end by being unreasonably tough to start with.  All he wants is for tariffs to be equal or non-existent for everyone.  America will be glad to compete on a fair and equal playing ground. 

His attacks on HD serves a purpose.  It sends a message to other American companies thinking about moving their plants overseas while he's battling for lower foreign tariffs.  That message is : Don't think about it or I will savage you.  Hang tough and I'll get them to lower their tariffs so you can compete better in those countries.  But you have to be firm and patient.  Don't betray me or America.   

American companies will think twice about moving at this time.  They don;t want the President's ire. 

Trump is so concerned because HD sends a message to foreign countries that their tariffs are working.  That they can wait to settle because America will blink first.  They'll wait us out extending the battle and lessen the chance for successful negotiations if not an outright trade war. 

The fact it's Harley Davidson running for cover at the first fusillade is really embarrassing I have to say being a fan of them all my life.

Trump loves spectacles, and the tariff thing is just that. Harley-Davidson has, perhaps unwittingly, pointed out Trumpís nakedness. H-D has long had facilities in foreign countries, and the new Thailand factory has been known about for months, including by the unions.

This is old news and Trump is petulantly using H-D as a whipping boy not to warn other businesses, but to keep his flimsy masquerade from being seen through by his supporters.


Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Rob C on June 27, 2018, 07:48:43 am
I await reaction from Ford. Having, finally, introduced Mustangs with RHD, they now become threatened with UK extinction (the cars, not the country, which is making a great job of that all by itself with no foreign help) as well as anywhere else using that take on road politics.

Jeremy, rather than allowing hotheads threaten threads with closure (suicide by cop), why not just close down the troublemakers instead for a few days? Nobody will miss them, and they may learn the error of their uncivilized ways.

:-)

Rob
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 27, 2018, 10:12:36 am
Jeremy, rather than allowing hotheads threaten threads with closure (suicide by cop), why not just close down the troublemakers instead for a few days? Nobody will miss them, and they may learn the error of their uncivilized ways.
Ah, speaking for others/everyone and speaking of censorship. We've come to this level  :'(
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: RSL on June 27, 2018, 10:17:04 am
What "level" is that, Andrew?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 27, 2018, 10:18:59 am
What "level" is that, Andrew?
Speaking for others/everyone and censorship.  :o
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: RSL on June 27, 2018, 10:23:42 am
As they say in Canada, Andrew: "Eh?"
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 27, 2018, 11:27:05 am
As they say in Canada, Andrew: "Eh?"
Maybe this will help?
Parlant pour les autres tout le monde et la censure!  ;D
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: RSL on June 27, 2018, 11:40:01 am
อะไร?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: MattBurt on June 27, 2018, 12:41:54 pm
I agree HD probably had this planned already but the escalating trade war just justified their move as a smart one for their business.

I also find it interesting that Trump is threatening them with some kind of vague tax hike, implying he would just raise taxes on them. Probably an idle threat but it gives some insight to his mindset and respect for established protocols.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: degrub on June 27, 2018, 12:50:59 pm
อะไร?

LOL !

เพื่ออะไร
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: RSL on June 27, 2018, 01:07:15 pm
ฉันไม่รู้

I don't know what Andrew's driving at. I suspect he doesn't know either. But I also suspect that neither French nor Thai is going to help.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 27, 2018, 01:09:56 pm
ฉันไม่รู้

I don't know what Andrew's driving at. I suspect he doesn't know either. But I also suspect that neither French nor Thai is going to help.
I don't agree with you. Therefore you are a troublemaker and a hothead, you should be banned here for a few days, nobody will miss you, learn the error of your uncivilized ways.
See now?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: degrub on June 27, 2018, 01:32:08 pm
Appears to be playing off Rob's sentiment for no useful purpose to the group.
time for supper.
เป็นไร
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 27, 2018, 01:34:54 pm
Appears to be playing off Rob's sentiment for no useful purpose to the group.
time for supper.
เป็นไร
Speaking for others too (no useful purpose to the group). Enjoy your supper (solely my personal opinion)....
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: RSL on June 27, 2018, 01:49:52 pm
To go to English verbalization: Chai, mai pin lai (or rai if you're in Bangkok). it doesn't matter. But it seems to matter a lot to Andrew.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 27, 2018, 02:18:01 pm
Jeremy, rather than allowing hotheads threaten threads with closure (suicide by cop), why not just close down the troublemakers instead for a few days? Nobody will miss them, and they may learn the error of their uncivilized ways.

I have merely issued an instruction, Rob. The sanction if it is not heeded lies within my discretion.

Jeremy

Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 27, 2018, 04:29:37 pm
Stock Market Returns: Obama vs Trump prior to Trade War (http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2018/06/update-for-fun-stock-market-as.html)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Klein on June 27, 2018, 06:56:04 pm
Stock Market Returns: Obama vs Trump prior to Trade War (http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2018/06/update-for-fun-stock-market-as.html)
   Do you think Hillary would have done better then Trump or are you suggesting Obama should have run for a third term?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 27, 2018, 06:59:47 pm
   Do you think Hillary would have done better then Trump or are you suggesting Obama should have run for a third term?
Hillary? Who knows, terribly flawed candidate IMHO, not the most flawed. 3rd term? I can only dream. So much for metaphorical questions and answers. Next up?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: degrub on June 27, 2018, 07:52:10 pm
How about burning incense for the new HD plant in Thailand and for the dozen kids and coach lost and trapped somewhere in a flooded cave system in Chang Rai for four days and counting ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44625006
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Rob C on June 28, 2018, 11:12:34 am
Holes in the ground are always best avoided.

However, every time I pick up on a headline about drownings, when not poor migrants it's almost invariably the consequence of overloaded ferries in the East and Far East.

With the history, you'd think they would have put two and two together by now.

Rob
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 28, 2018, 12:26:31 pm
Still Good Paying Jobs in America if You want to Hit the Road (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/americas-severe-trucker-shortage-could-undermine-the-prosperous-economy/2018/06/28/61c19e12-7595-11e8-b4b7-308400242c2e_story.html?utm_term=.f151a1a3da8f)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Frans Waterlander on June 28, 2018, 07:53:31 pm
Hillary? Who knows, terribly flawed candidate IMHO, not the most flawed. 3rd term? I can only dream. So much for metaphorical questions and answers. Next up?

One person's dream, another person's nightmare.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 28, 2018, 08:00:14 pm
One person's dream, another person's nightmare.
So much for metaphorical nightmares.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 28, 2018, 09:31:29 pm
One person's dream, another person's nightmare.

Eh.. Obama can fairly be describes as anywhere from ineffective to reasonably pragmatic, but it's sort of hard to put anything did in the "nightmare" category, with the possible exception of liberals being distressed/distraught at his continuation/expansion of his predecessor's drone warfare and ME policy. 

Conservatives don't really have that much to complain about really - I know the ACA is a giant bogeyman, but unless you though Bush's Medicare expansion was also a nightmare AND you're up in arms about Trump's skyrocketing deficit, you're just sort of playing partisan politics.  IMHO, of course.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 28, 2018, 09:33:48 pm
Eh.. Obama can fairly be describes as anywhere from ineffective to reasonably pragmatic, but it's sort of hard to put anything did in the "nightmare" category, with the possible exception of liberals being distressed/distraught at his continuation/expansion of his predecessor's drone warfare and ME policy. 
If not for Frans's so called nightmare, he wouldn't have a book about Obama to peddle (Socialism, Corruption and Economic Collapse, all that FUD). So you have to zero in on the agenda of his metaphorical nightmare.
I prefer the fiction of Stephen King and George RR Martin.  ;D
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 28, 2018, 09:54:33 pm
If not for Frans's so called nightmare, he wouldn't have a book about Obama to peddle (Socialism, Corruption and Economic Collapse, all that FUD). So you have to zero in on the agenda of his metaphorical nightmare.
I prefer the fiction of Stephen King and George RR Martin.  ;D

Someone had to fill in while Dinesh D'Souza was doing time for actually committing the voter fraud the right imagines everywhere, I guess ;)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 28, 2018, 09:58:10 pm
Someone had to fill in while Dinesh D'Souza was Doing time for actually committing the voter fraud the right imagines everywhere, I guess ;)
Pardon me?  ;D
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 28, 2018, 10:01:00 pm
Pardon me?  ;D

:D
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 28, 2018, 11:36:10 pm
Eh.. Obama can fairly be describes as anywhere from ineffective to reasonably pragmatic, but it's sort of hard to put anything did in the "nightmare" category...

Indeed... other than setting back racial relations 50 years, treating ISIS as JV, weaponizing the browning of America, and ushering communism into the U.S., no, nothing else was that nightmarish ;)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 28, 2018, 11:40:05 pm
Indeed... other than setting back racial relations 50 years, treating ISIS as JV, weaponizing the browning of America, and ushering communism into the U.S., no, nothing else was that nightmarish ;)
What,nothing about starting a sex slave operation for Hillary? Youíre slipping.  :P
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Frans Waterlander on June 29, 2018, 01:55:40 am
If not for Frans's so called nightmare, he wouldn't have a book about Obama to peddle (Socialism, Corruption and Economic Collapse, all that FUD). So you have to zero in on the agenda of his metaphorical nightmare.
I prefer the fiction of Stephen King and George RR Martin.  ;D

Thanks for plugging my book, again. BTW, did you actually read my book or you just judge it by its cover?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: kers on June 29, 2018, 07:48:39 am
So maybe its time for a remake of 'Easy rider'

featuring Trump, Obama, and Hilary Clinton on HD
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 29, 2018, 08:07:28 am
His attacks on HD serves a purpose.  It sends a message to other American companies thinking about moving their plants overseas while he's battling for lower foreign tariffs.  That message is : Don't think about it or I will savage you.  Hang tough and I'll get them to lower their tariffs so you can compete better in those countries.  But you have to be firm and patient.  Don't betray me or America.   

American companies will think twice about moving at this time.  They don;t want the President's ire. 

Trump is so concerned because HD sends a message to foreign countries that their tariffs are working.  That they can wait to settle because America will blink first.  They'll wait us out extending the battle and lessen the chance for successful negotiations if not an outright trade war. 

The fact it's Harley Davidson running for cover at the first fusillade is really embarrassing I have to say being a fan of them all my life.

As a conservative, aren't yon concerned with an elected official sticking their nose into the affairs of a private company? Should not governments set policy but remain neutral when it comes to individual companies. If the company decides that it is in the best interests of shareholders to move the company, is it ok for the government to step in, do you think?
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 08:11:00 am
Thanks for plugging my book, again. BTW, did you actually read my book or you just judge it by its cover?
You need much help in these parts, at least on topics involving color and reading a nozzle check (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124550.msg1042484#msg1042484), I am happy to mention your little work of fiction here. As for the book cover, not much Photographic quality to critique which isnít surprising to me!  :o I told you, for fiction, King and Martin are my preference.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Rob C on June 29, 2018, 08:38:58 am
As a conservative, aren't yon concerned with an elected official sticking their nose into the affairs of a private company? Should not governments set policy but remain neutral when it comes to individual companies. If the company decides that it is in the best interests of shareholders to move the company, is it ok for the government to step in, do you think?

You make a good point.

However, appealing to that level (as in mindset) of voter almost always has to assume that they hate the boss, that he is ever out to exploit them, and that he is the natural enemy. In essence, classical, left-wing politics which, surprisingly, also appears to be working for the right as embodied in Mr T's credo. I say credo, but of course, I'm sure he doesn't give a fig about any of it - just about where it takes him on this particular merry-go-round he leaped aboard. Unfortunately, as with all fairground attractions, if they don't kill you first, all you reach at the end is the Exit.

Rob
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 09:48:22 am
As a conservative, aren't yon concerned with an elected official sticking their nose into the affairs of a private company?
Like Amazon? Where so many books on fiction and non fiction are sold, some here probably wouldn't use them after an elected official stuck his nose into that company, due to it's owner owning another company. Me, Amazon Prime, Amazon visa, but alas, not Harely Davidson, not a biker.


http://money.cnn.com/2018/04/04/news/companies/trump-companies-attacks/index.html
Amazon is not the first business to end up in the president's crosshairs.


http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/314271-19-companies-that-trump-has-tweeted-about
19 companies that Trump has tweeted about

Trump Steaks anyone? VOMIT.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 29, 2018, 10:39:01 am
Indeed... other than setting back racial relations 50 years, treating ISIS as JV, weaponizing the browning of America, and ushering communism into the U.S., no, nothing else was that nightmarish ;)

Fair points, all.   Plus, who can forget Obama faking the moon landing, blowing up the Maine, coordinating with Hawaiian newspapers to fabricate his birth *from the womb* (which is even more amazing than faking the moon landing despite not even being born yet, IMHO), and, worst of all, kicking everyone's - and I do mean *everyone's* dog. 

The rest I can cope with, but you just don't kick dogs. Not even Digital ones.

Thank God we survived those eight years, and are back to some semblance of normalcy where, when you have neo-Nazis and counter protesters duking it out, there are good people on both sides!

 ;D

...and now off to post about photography and pay my penance.  Again. 
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2018, 10:43:41 am
So maybe its time for a remake of 'Easy rider'

featuring Trump, Obama, and Hilary Clinton on HD

Here you go (ok, next best thing):
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 29, 2018, 11:36:11 am
Thanks for plugging my book, again. BTW, did you actually read my book or you just judge it by its cover?

At amazon.co.uk, sadly, it's out of stock, but it is at 6,544,382 in the books list, so I expect they'll be keen to acquire some more copies.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 29, 2018, 11:40:24 am
At amazon.co.uk, sadly, it's out of stock, but it is at 6,544,382 in the books list, so I expect they'll be keen to acquire some more copies.

Jeremy

ouch. 
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 11:43:45 am
At amazon.co.uk, sadly, it's out of stock, but it is at 6,544,382 in the books list, so I expect they'll be keen to acquire some more copies.

Jeremy
Maybe Frans will send you a signed copy.
There's one book on color management, out of print for years that is listed 1,589,645 in that Book list, but alas, it's not a work of fiction.  ;D
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 11:44:09 am
ouch.
+ 6,544,382!
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 29, 2018, 12:48:44 pm
Gents...  as sympatico as we may be politically, this is a bit too personal IMHO.  Criticize the content but mocking Fransí place in the market seems a bit unkind to me. 
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 29, 2018, 12:49:22 pm
At amazon.co.uk, sadly, it's out of stock, but it is at 6,544,382 in the books list, so I expect they'll be keen to acquire some more copies.

Jeremy
According to Amazon US, the book is self-published.  There is still some in stock over here.  Perhaps you need to alert the author that it is not available in the UK though more likely there never was much interest over there about President Obama's socialist doctrine.  It is factually correct that the book was published in the summer of 2011 according to Amazon and therefore would not have any information on the last five years of President Obama's term in office where the economy was exceptionally robust and the nation was not involved in any trade war.

EDIT:  James Clark posted just before I did about not attacking the author (which I have not done).  There is a long description of the book's chapters on the US Amazon site HERE (https://www.amazon.com/Obama-Doctrine-Socialism-Corruption-Economic/dp/1463641133/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1530290611&sr=1-1&refinements=p_27%3AFrans+Waterlander&dpID=51wl5MvDI-L&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch) for those who are interested.  I found it very interesting but not  enough to purchase a copy (sorry Frans).
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 29, 2018, 01:01:41 pm
According to Amazon US, the book is self-published.  There is still some in stock over here.  Perhaps you need to alert the author that it is not available in the UK though more likely there never was much interest over there about President Obama's socialist doctrine.  It is factually correct that the book was published in the summer of 2011 according to Amazon and therefore would not have any information on the last five years of President Obama's term in office where the economy was exceptionally robust and the nation was not involved in any trade war.

EDIT:  James Clark posted just before I did about not attacking the author (which I have not done).  There is a long description of the book's chapters on the US Amazon site HERE (https://www.amazon.com/Obama-Doctrine-Socialism-Corruption-Economic/dp/1463641133/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1530290611&sr=1-1&refinements=p_27%3AFrans+Waterlander&dpID=51wl5MvDI-L&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch) for those who are interested.  I found it very interesting but not  enough to purchase a copy (sorry Frans).

Indeed you did not.  As you did, I read the chapter summaries and itís clear that the content doesnít really play well, generally speaking, with the eventual outcome of the Obama years.  Iím on a phone, so brevity rules the day. ;)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2018, 01:03:08 pm
Gents...  as sympatico as we may be politically, this is a bit too personal IMHO.  Criticize the content but mocking Fransí place in the market seems a bit unkind to me. 

We seem to agree on something, James :)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 01:07:33 pm
Criticize the content but mocking Fransí place in the market seems a bit unkind to me.
I saw it simply as a data point, but fair enough.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 29, 2018, 01:10:40 pm
We seem to agree on something, James :)

Weíve agreed before.  In fact, I think we share a common philosophy on things like expression and the (lack of) a right to not be offended.  Plus Iíd say your photographic philosophy and style are as close to mine as anyoneís here is.   It just that youíre wrong about so many things political. ;)
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 29, 2018, 01:13:02 pm
... It just that youíre wrong about so many things political. ;)

Funny, another area we agree on. I also think youíre wrong about so many things political :D
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: James Clark on June 29, 2018, 01:16:02 pm
Funny, another area we agree on. I also think youíre wrong about so many things political :D

heh.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Klein on June 29, 2018, 03:13:46 pm
As a conservative, aren't yon concerned with an elected official sticking their nose into the affairs of a private company? Should not governments set policy but remain neutral when it comes to individual companies. If the company decides that it is in the best interests of shareholders to move the company, is it ok for the government to step in, do you think?

That's a great question. My conservative instinct is that government should stay out of business affairs.  For example, I'm not in favor of government playing favorites by having incentives and tax credits for solar companies or Tesla or things like the old oil depletion tax allowance for oil companies.  I also feel that government shouldn't get into the business of tariffs.  It restricts importing cheaper goods that raise our standard of living (if you have a job).  It's nice having cheap labor overseas.  Cameras are cheaper built overseas  On the other hand, if we can get foreign countries to lower their tariffs at least to match ours, that would be good for our companies to export and help jobs here.  If temporary tariffs could cause fairer and more even trade, something Trump is trying to do.  They should be dropped immediately afterwards.

Getting back to your question about business, generally I don't think the government should threaten American companies.  They should really leave business decisions to businesses.   Of course, Trump really can't go beyond a threat.  He has no way he can step in and stop them or impose penalties.  Nor should he.  So the question is should the President use the power of his office to set the tone of what business should do or not do.    Should presidents use the presidential pulpit to admonish  and persuade like all presidents do in all areas of national activity.   I'm not sure.  I do think that his purpose was to send a message to other American businesses and to foreigners in the middle of a trade struggle with them. HD announcement did weaken our bargaining position.  Liberals are always knocking business saying how greedy they are, how they aren't considerate of America and Americans.  So I'm surprised you object when Trump wants to embarrass HD so other companies don't move their business to Europe like HD.  Would you object if Obama made the complaint?


So I think my answer is that now, due to an economic trade war we're having, the President should use his bloody pulpit to rally the troops and embarrass cowards who would abandon the country while we are in a battle.  Beyond that, he ought to stay out of business.
Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: digitaldog on June 29, 2018, 03:18:02 pm
That's a great question. My conservative instinct is that government should stay out of business affairs.  For example, I'm not in favor of government playing favorites by having incentives and tax credits for solar companies or Tesla or things like the old oil depletion tax allowance for oil companies. 
Wheat, Milk (farm), oil, exports, maybe coal?
From a report I found circa 2015:

Title: Re: Poor Harley Davidson...
Post by: Alan Klein on June 29, 2018, 03:44:24 pm
Wheat, Milk (farm), oil, exports, maybe coal?
From a report I found circa 2015:


  If these tax credits were granted to particular industries or specific companies, rather than a general tax credits for any American company, then I'm opposed.  The only time I would consider it if it was a national defense contractor like let's say Lookheed who we depend on for certain systems that defend us militarily.  However, even there, I would encourage as much competition as possible.