Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Schewe on June 22, 2018, 03:27:36 am

Title: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Schewe on June 22, 2018, 03:27:36 am
Times new cover is pretty compelling:

(https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftimedotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F06%2Ftrump-immigration-final.jpg&w=500&q=85)

Interesting story about it too...

The Story Behind TIME's Trump 'Welcome to America' Cover (http://time.com/5317522/donald-trump-border-cover/)

Quote
John Moore, a Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer for Getty Images, has been photographing immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border for years. This week one of his pictures became the most visible symbol of the immigration debate in America.

“This one was tough for me. As soon as it was over, they were put into a van. I had to stop and take deep breaths,” Moore told TIME Tuesday (http://time.com/longform/john-moore-getty-photo-separation/?xid=tcoshare), describing his reaction to the scene of a two-year-old Honduran girl crying as her mother was being detained in McAllen, Texas. “All I wanted to do was pick her up. But I couldn’t.”

You should read the full story:

‘All I Wanted to Do Was Pick Her Up.’ How a Photographer at the U.S.-Mexico Border Made an Image America Could Not Ignore (http://time.com/longform/john-moore-getty-photo-separation/?xid=tcoshare)

Quote
"This one was tough for me. As soon as it was over, they were put into a van. I had to stop and take deep breaths," Getty photographer John Moore said

The story has other compelling images besides the famous one...

And The Atlantic has a collection of Moore's work in this article:

On the Border With the Photographer John Moore (https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/06/on-the-border-with-photographer-john-moore/563282/)

He also has a new book out: Undocumented: Immigration and the Militarization of the United States-Mexico Border (https://www.amazon.com/Undocumented-Immigration-Militarization-United-States-Mexico/dp/1576878678)

Interesting to think that the two most compelling examples of journalism in this whole debacle is a still photo of a small girl crying and audio recording  of children asking for their mothers and fathers from a detention center...
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 09:52:41 am
Quote
The toddler wasn’t separated from her mother when they were caught crossing the U.S. border, her father, Denis Javier Varela Hernandez, told The Washington Post. Varela said his daughter, Yanela, and her mother, 32-year-old Sandra Sanchez, were detained together in McAllen, Texas.
Honduran deputy foreign minister Nelly Jerez and a spokesman for U.S. Customs and Border Protection corroborated the story

In the interest of full disclosure, the quote above is from a HuffPost article. The photo attached was also posted in the same HuffPost article, but the headline is coming from Breitbart.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Two23 on June 22, 2018, 09:57:29 am
If the choice was still Hillary or Trump, I'd definitely still vote the same way.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Rand47 on June 22, 2018, 10:55:39 am
While I find the separation of the kids from their parents one of the dumbest, meanest things we’ve done lately.  I find it equally disturbing that the media in general is suggesting that any time a child is in distress we must “do anything” to “relieve the suffering.”  WTF?  This is pandering in the worst sort of way, IMO.  I continue to become more and more disgusted with all sides of all issues “in the news.”  We’re rapidly becoming a nation that has lost both its mind and its heart.  The lack of critical thinking on all sides is appalling.  The seeming need to win the histrionics war on any topic has replaced any desire for, or progress toward, clarity of issues and forging working compromise in order to move forward on anything.  This nation is headed for self-destruction at an ever increasing pace.

A pox on them all.

Rand
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: donbga on June 22, 2018, 11:15:33 am
While I find the separation of the kids from their parents one of the dumbest, meanest things we’ve done lately.  I find it equally disturbing that the media in general is suggesting that any time a child is in distress we must “do anything” to “relieve the suffering.”  WTF?  This is pandering in the worst sort of way, IMO.  I continue to become more and more disgusted with all sides of all issues “in the news.”  We’re rapidly becoming a nation that has lost both its mind and its heart.  The lack of critical thinking on all sides is appalling.  The seeming need to win the histrionics war on any topic has replaced any desire for, or progress toward, clarity of issues and forging working compromise in order to move forward on anything.  This nation is headed for self-destruction at an ever increasing pace.

A pox on them all.

Rand

Same old fake news.

This discussion illustrates exactly why this forum serves to be nothing but a distraction to the rest of Lula.

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Schewe on June 22, 2018, 11:48:16 am
Same old fake news.

This discussion illustrates exactly why this forum serves to be nothing but a distraction to the rest of Lula.

Guess you didn’t look at the photos huh?
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 11:53:46 am
... any time a child is in distress we must “do anything” to “relieve the suffering.” ...

Kids cry. On flights especially. Then get kicked off the flight. To relieve the suffering of fellow passengers. No outrage. No magazine covers.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 11:54:43 am
...  We’re rapidly becoming a nation that has lost both its mind and its heart.  ...

What's the joke that says if you aren't a liberal at 18, you don't have a heart.  If you're still a liberal at 40, you don't have a brain. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 22, 2018, 11:55:03 am
Guess you didn’t look at the photos huh?

What we looked at, Jeff, was the bullshit. It smells pretty bad.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 22, 2018, 11:56:15 am
In the interest of full disclosure, the quote above is from a HuffPost article. The photo attached was also posted in the same HuffPost article, but the headline is coming from Breitbart.

The BBC seems to agree (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44578339).

Jeremy
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 11:56:20 am
Kids cry. On flights especially. Then get kicked off the flight. To relieve the suffering of fellow passengers. No outrage. No magazine covers.
You ever go to an expensive restaurant and someone is there with the three noisy kids running around the place playing grab-ass?  Indigestion!
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Rand47 on June 22, 2018, 12:00:59 pm
Same old fake news.

This discussion illustrates exactly why this forum serves to be nothing but a distraction to the rest of Lula.

Frankly, I don’t see how my post has anything to do with fake news.  Other than, perhaps, to say that there’s plenty of fake news on all sides at all times.  I learned an important lesson when my work life rose to a point where some of what I was involved in was regular fodder for several large newspapers in the metropolitan Los Angeles area (L.A. Times, etc.).  Every single news article published about “the issue” (that I had first hand knowledge of) was inaccurate (poor journalistic research) and also slanted in one direction or another.  The take away for me in this after a couple of years was to extrapolate to all that I read in the news papers.  If the articles that I read, the reality of which I knew intimately, were so butchered as to be almost unrecognizable - what made me think that other things I read were any more accurate?  For those leaning right to jump on the band wagon of “fake news” in its latest incarnation, to think that there isn’t equallly fake news from all perspectives, is naive in the extreme, as I see it.

Rand
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 12:03:10 pm
The BBC seems to agree (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44578339).

Jeremy

More fake news.  The histeria about Trump has distorted fair and balanced reportage from what use to be fair and balanced news sources.  They should all go back to Journalism 101.  It's a disgrace.  Independents aren't stupid.  People know when someone has their thumb on the scale.  Eventually they wake up and see it like the Boy Who Cried Wolf.  Fake news has to be selective to work long term.  The constant bombardment is eventually ignored, or worse for the pushers, countered with people moving to the other side. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 12:06:39 pm
The BBC seems to agree (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44578339).

Some interesting quotes from that article:

"He [father] said he believed she went to the US to search of better economic opportunities... He told the Daily Mail he understands Ms Sanchez paid $6,000 to a smuggler to get her across the border."

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 12:09:24 pm
Frankly, I don’t see how my post has anything to do with fake news.  Other than, perhaps, to say that there’s plenty of fake news on all sides at all times.  I learned an important lesson when my work life rose to a point where some of what I was involved in was regular fodder for several large newspapers in the metropolitan Los Angeles area (L.A. Times, etc.).  Every single news article published about “the issue” (that I had first hand knowledge of) was inaccurate (poor journalistic research) and also slanted in one direction or another.  The take away for me in this after a couple of years was to extrapolate to all that I read in the news papers.  If the articles that I read, the reality of which I knew intimately, were so butchered as to be almost unrecognizable - what made me think that other things I read were any more accurate?  For those leaning right to jump on the band wagon of “fake news” in its latest incarnation, to think that there isn’t equallly fake news from all perspectives, is naive in the extreme, as I see it.

Rand
I agree that there's fake news on all sides.  The problem is that the media that has the most "juice" like the NY Times, Washington Post, NBC, CBS, ABC, distort on the side of liberal, Democrat and anti Trump.  Then Google, and even the smaller news outlets, repeat more of these distorted views because they byline the bigger and more influential liberal newspapers.  All this reporting also goes out across the world so people in other countries get the anti-Trump, liberally distorted news as well. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 12:10:40 pm
Some interesting quotes from that article:

"He [father] said he believed she went to the US to search of better economic opportunities... He told the Daily Mail he understands Ms Sanchez paid $6,000 to a smuggler to get her across the border."



There you go again confusing us with the truth.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 22, 2018, 12:13:31 pm
It's really sad. I remember when Time magazine was a great source for news. Now there's no news there; just propaganda.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 12:15:42 pm
Jeff, please keep them coming (fake news).

If the next one flops as spectacularly as this one, or the one before that, about "caged" kids, November will be like Christmas come early ;)
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 12:37:34 pm
As usual, most on both sides of this topic has forgotten the 'theme' of this (IMHO silly) forum:
The Art of Photography > The Coffee Corner > How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Jeff at least tried:
Quote
And The Atlantic has a collection of Moore's work in this article:
On the Border With the Photographer John Moore
Pretty nice photographic work IMHO.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Schewe on June 22, 2018, 01:19:42 pm
As usual, most on both sides of this topic has forgotten the 'theme' of this (IMHO silly) forum:
The Art of Photography > The Coffee Corner > How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.

I also posted a link to photos of cats high on catnip (in case you missed it)

Stoned cats! (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=125455.0)
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 01:20:51 pm
I also posted a link to photos of cats high on catnip (in case you missed it)
Stoned cats! (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=125455.0)
The Digital Dog is jealous...
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: OmerV on June 22, 2018, 02:02:43 pm
Kids cry. On flights especially. Then get kicked off the flight. To relieve the suffering of fellow passengers. No outrage. No magazine covers.

Without their parents?

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 02:06:46 pm
Without their parents?
And for weeks, months?
Some are utterly compassion impaired.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 02:39:44 pm
Without their parents?

The kid in question in the OP was with her mother.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 02:43:37 pm
The kid in question in the OP was with her mother.
That dismisses the Trump policy and the 2300+ that were separated in two months? No, I don't expect an answer.
You can prove that the photo you provided from the Obama administration, the kids were indeed separated from their families by ICE? No, I don't expect an answer.
You can prove that the statements from Obama's administration I provided was a lie, and indeed, they separated children from their families at the border? No, I don't expect an answer.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: OmerV on June 22, 2018, 03:01:54 pm
The kid in question in the OP was with her mother.

Yes, that kid.

By the way, my favorite Republican response was, “child actors,” by Ann Coulter who seems intent on being the American Marie Antoinette. Although “actors” is getting a bit old. I hope she can be a bit more original, she is entertaing.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 03:43:21 pm
An interesting perspective (from the CNN, fake news for some):

There's no question that the parents of these children are trying to enter the country illegally. But it's simply not that cut and dried. Many are fleeing persecution in their native countries, seeking asylum in the United States. And all love their kids and are, for the most part, just trying to do right by them. (This obviously doesn't hold for smugglers trying to use children to get into the US.)
These children have committed no crime. They don't know any better. All they know is that one minute they were with their parents and the next they were with a stranger -- and often being flown to some far-off locale where they know no one.

Take it out of this circumstance. Let's say you are walking around a grocery store and you see a 5-year-old boy walking alone and crying. Do you think:
a) "I wonder if this boy and his parents are legally in the country and therefore one of 'our kids'"
OR
b) "This poor little boy is lost. I have to help him find his mother."
Unless you're Voldemort, you always choose "B." Because the priority isn't whether this kid is "one of ours" but rather that the kid is lost and scared. Basic human decency takes over.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 03:52:37 pm
We ARE helping those kids. They WILL be reunited with their parents or relatives.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 03:55:43 pm
They WILL be reunited with their parents or relatives.
You're working on that? Don't answer, you can't. More speculations. They shouldn’t need to be reunited in the first place; a point some are attempting to make that some here will never accept. It's part of being compassion deficient.
Jeremy, while some here love to yell 'Lock her up', I'd prefer 'lock it down'; this tread, maybe the entire Coffee Corner. You have better things to do, that would force others to do better things! 

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 04:00:29 pm
Every time a parent goes to jail, immigrant or citizen, children are separated by default. So, yes they needed to be separated as their parents went to jail. Unless you want them in jail too?

As for "compassion"... when logic and facts fail, the last resort of losers is appeal to compassion.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 22, 2018, 04:07:10 pm
https://www.facebook.com/362804017185166/photos/a.362837327181835.1073741828.362804017185166/1306353379496887/?type=3
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 04:08:58 pm
https://www.facebook.com/362804017185166/photos/a.362837327181835.1073741828.362804017185166/1306353379496887/?type=3
Fake news.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 22, 2018, 04:16:21 pm
I agree that there's fake news on all sides.  The problem is that the media that has the most "juice" like the NY Times, Washington Post, NBC, CBS, ABC, distort on the side of liberal, Democrat and anti Trump.  Then Google, and even the smaller news outlets, repeat more of these distorted views because they byline the bigger and more influential liberal newspapers.  All this reporting also goes out across the world so people in other countries get the anti-Trump, liberally distorted news as well.
Do you believe that all the fact checking on Trump statement is 'fake' news?
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 04:48:08 pm
Do you believe that all the fact checking on Trump statement is 'fake' news?

Not all... most.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 04:55:14 pm
Do you believe that all the fact checking on Trump statement is 'fake' news?
They look for negative news and place it on page 1 in bold, large font and bury good news what Trump does on page 47.  Like global warming, the biased press focuses on the stuff that supports their view and minimizes good news. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 05:06:47 pm
Fake news is also about playing word games. Like when Trump said Obama was tapping his phones, the press laughed and said that's ridiculous, isn't he a wacko.  But it turned out they were spying on him.  And that's the point.  So while there may not have been a tap with Obama listening in with earphones, obviously not what Trump meant, the point Trump made was the Obama administration was spying on him, which turned out to be true. 

The bias is over-the-top to most reasonable people but not Trump haters.  The media never did that before with Obama and never went to that extent even with other Republicans.  If the Republicans keep Congress in November and Trump gets re-elected in 2020, the whole Democrat and liberal media strategy would be shown to have failed.  That will mean that independents saw through the BS.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 05:12:20 pm
Fake news is also about playing word games. Like when Trump said Obama was tapping his phones, the press laughed and said that's ridiculous, isn't he a wacko. 
Instead of just saying it was a big fat lie of his, like so many. Wacko is better than liar I suppose.
Quote
But it turned out they were spying on him.
They were tapping his phones?
Quote
So while there may not have been a tap with Obama listening in with earphones, obviously not what Trump meant, the point Trump made was the Obama administration was spying on him, which turned out to be true
What is obvious to me was he lied. He's a big boy. He said his phones were tapped. That's either a true statement or it's a lie;which was it?
Quote
The media never did that before with Obama and never went to that extent even with other Republicans.
They did, it's just Obama didn't lie as much (he did get caught in some lies, so did many other presidents). The difference (and again, context is key), is how many more lies Trump tells than others.
Quote
That will mean that independents saw through the BS.  Time will tell.
It will, we should revisit this then.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 05:43:32 pm
Andrew, you just proved my point.  Thanks.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 05:45:21 pm
Andrew, you just proved my point.  Thanks.
You are very welcome. As such, I would thank you if you answer my last question.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 06:03:36 pm
You are very welcome. As such, I would thank you if you answer my last question.
What question? 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 06:08:37 pm
What question?
The one in the post prior to yours with the question mark. (looks like this:?).
Hint, it was what I believe to be a gold/bold face lie about wire tapping. Maybe I'm wrong, hence the question to you.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 06:24:32 pm
The one in the post prior to yours with the question mark. (looks like this:?).
Hint, it was what I believe to be a gold/bold face lie about wire tapping. Maybe I'm wrong, hence the question to you.
I already answered that question when I said your response proved my point.  And that is you're twisting his point.  Wire tapping is just one method of spying on someone.  He was spied on.  That was his point obvious to everyone except those who don't like Trump. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Schewe on June 22, 2018, 06:28:16 pm
So while there may not have been a tap with Obama listening in with earphones, obviously not what Trump meant, the point Trump made was the Obama administration was spying on him, which turned out to be true. 

Hum...where did you get that?

Indeed, Trump thought the Obama administration was "spying" on him...that's what Devin Nunes thinks. The FBI DID have a tap on the Russian ambassador (that's how Flynn got caught). Are you saying Grump called the ambassador?

Oh, maybe you mean that the Obama admin had the FBI embed a spy in Trump's campaign? That's what Devin Nunes thinks...turns out the FBI did have an informant talk to a couple of shady people like Carter Page and George Papadopoulos...but alas, that seems to not pan out either according to Obama supporter Trey Gowdy who thought the FBI did exactly what the American people thought they should do...(note, I was making a joke by calling Goudy an Obama supporter–did you catch that?)

Maybe you mean the FISA warrant the FBI got on Carter Page...the guy who has been trying to work with Russia sine 2013 but the Russians think he too stupid to be useful. Yes, the FBI did tap his phones–AFTER-he left the Trump campaign...but maybe Page called Trump and thus the FBI "tapped Trump's phones" after all? Is that what you mean? That's what Devin Nunes thinks...actually, I thinks Devin Nunes thinks anything Donny tells him to think regardless of whether or not it's true...

But you go right ahead believing Obama spied on Trump...
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 06:33:21 pm
I already answered that question when I said your response proved my point.  And that is you're twisting his point.  Wire tapping is just one method of spying on someone.  He was spied on.  That was his point obvious to everyone except those who don't like Trump.
You don't wish to admit he wasn't wire tapped it seems.
There is NO evidence Obama wire tapped Trump. Trump said he was wire tapped. That's a lie. Unless you can provide some evidence.
Trump has told so many similar lies, it's difficult to keep track of the worst, that's up there. It's been reported to be 5 a day! If that's off by 50%, that's still a huge amount of lies. It makes it real hard for some of us to accept when he tells the truth.
He saw Muslims were cheering as the Twin Towers fell. Zero evidence of that.
MORE PEOPLE WATCHED THE INAUGURATION THAN EVER BEFORE- lie Zero evidence of that
HILLARY CLINTON WON THE POPULAR VOTE BECAUSE OF FRAUD- lie-Zero evidence of that.
You say the Obama administration was spying on him. What makes you say that? The stuff about Clapper has, like many of the lies, been shown to be false.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 06:33:45 pm
Informant...spy... potato, potahto.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Two23 on June 22, 2018, 06:36:29 pm
Time, Newsweek, HuffPo, and a long list of others have become nothing more than propaganda outlets (similar to Breitbart, Savage Nations, etc.)  Their intent is to inflame & deceive, not inform.  Until recently I tried to use two main sources of news (NPR & FoxNews) to get a balanced view of issues, but even those two are becomming more biased rather than informing me with straight facts and letting me make up my own mind.  It is the media that is driving the polarization in this country.  People are more divided than at any other time I can remember, and I was in high school during the late 1960s.  When I was growing up it was OK to have a different opinion than someone else, but now if you have a different opinion those with another one try to destroy you.  Take a look at what's happening on college campii.  If the radicals don't like a speaker, not only do they not want to hear it, they don't want YOU to hear it either.  They will use violence to stop it.  This is Fascism pure and simple.  Most of the media is now ideologically driven and anything but neutral.  Ever hear real criticism of Obama's failings?  Rarely, and quickly dropped.  Ever hear of any of Trump's success?  Never, except on FoxNews and on rare occasions NPR.  Most of the rest of the media seems to have become Pravda and Izvestia.  This is very, very dangerous for a democracy.  Despite a diligent search I'm unable to find an organization that will give me the straight story.  Lies and calculated deception flow freely, and the population seems to be losing its ability to do its own critical thinking.  Meanwhile, we arm ourselves because of the increasing distrust.  No one seems willing to step up and diffuse things.  This may not end well.


Kent in SD


Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 06:38:32 pm
You don't wish to admit he wasn't wire tapped it seems.
There is NO evidence Obama wire tapped Trump. Trump said he was wire tapped. That's a lie...

Alan just explained, patiently, twice, that he understood Trump words metaphorically, not literally, and yet, you insist, repeatedly, on the literal meaning. Do you understand the difference between those two concepts?
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 06:40:12 pm
Until recently I tried to use two main sources of news (NPR & FoxNews) to get a balanced view of issues, but even those two are becomming more biased rather than informing me with straight facts and letting me make up my own mind.
Two sources, that's a problem.
It's OK to have different opinions. It isn't to have different facts. I've asked Alan for facts. I'm not seeing any (yet).
Quote
This is very, very dangerous for a democracy.
More dangerous than the President attacking the news media because he doesn't like what they write?
He doesn't have enough members of his own party to attack?
Quote
Meanwhile, we arm ourselves because of the increasing distrust.
Verify, then trust.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 06:45:02 pm
Alan just explained, patiently, twice, that he understood Trump words metaphorically, not literally, and yet, you insist, repeatedly, on the literal meaning.
Another outstanding excuse; I've got to start writing them all down.
I know more about photography than all the photographers (I know more about Isis than all the generals).
Of course you shouldn’t take that statement literally! I metaphorically know more about photography than all of you guys. Believe me (another statement Trump makes all the time).
Your idea that Trumps lies are simply metaphorically induced and not literal, or 'he's just joking' makes perfect sense if you suspend all rational thought.
Of course, when your side says Obama lied or anyone with the last name Clinton, you do realize these are all statements that are not to be taken literally, they should be taken as metaphorically.

How do you guys come up with this stuff.  (question mark removed for obvious reasons based on posting history here)  :'(
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 22, 2018, 06:54:10 pm
Obama was/is eloquent, professorial, oratorial, carefully weighing every word. Therefore, it is easier to take him at his word and not metaphorically.

Trump's speech is far from eloquent, far from professorial, far from oratorial, and is not carefully weighing every word. On the contrary, he speaks in hyperboles, boasting, bragging, joking, simplistically, simple sentences and simple words... and thus connects with his audience far better than Obama and annoys the elite far more than Obama.

One was growing in academia, the other on constructions sites. You can not apply the same metrics in analyzing words of those two guys.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 07:04:12 pm
Alan just explained, patiently, twice, that he understood Trump words metaphorically, not literally, and yet, you insist, repeatedly, on the literal meaning. Do you understand the difference between those two concepts?
Metaphor.  That's the word.  Thanks. 
"a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable"
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 07:07:27 pm
Obama was/is eloquent, professorial, oratorial, carefully weighing every word. Therefore, it is easier to take him at his word and not metaphorically.
He lied far, far FAR less than Trump.
You seem to be suggesting Trump has none of those attributes of Obama, has difficulty forming sentences, and he's not lying. Rubbish. He lied big time most of the time he is on record.
You've made my point about Trump, thanks! 
But man, what a great deal maker... NOT.   
Quote
One was growing in academia, the other on constructions sites.
Yes, some people shouldn’t be President, they don't have the skills, knowledge, temperament, communications skills, ability to concentrate instead of watching TV, honesty etc.

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 07:23:46 pm
Metaphor.  That's the word.  Thanks. 
"a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable"
I am taller, stronger, smarter and better looking than anyone posting here.
This Metaphor stuff is fun but I still feel I have not been totally honest with you Alan.
Will I get over that guilt if like Trump, I post/state more metaphors. Again, no ? for obvious reason to some!
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 07:26:05 pm
He lied far, far FAR less than Trump.
You seem to be suggesting Trump has none of those attributes of Obama, has difficulty forming sentences, and he's not lying. Rubbish. He lied big time most of the time he is on record.
You've made my point about Trump, thanks! 
But man, what a great deal maker... NOT.   Yes, some people shouldn’t be President, they don't have the skills, knowledge, temperament, communications skills, ability to concentrate instead of watching TV, honesty etc.


President Obama was a man of words. He acquiesced a lot and was feckless.  A college professor not a president.    Trump is a man of action. He takes strong positions and pushes like a New York real estate guy.  As a NY sub-contractor, I worked for a lot of guys like him.  They're cheap and want to get the job done ahead of schedule and within budget, better if possible.  Trumps' shock and awe and tariffs are all opening gambits to negotiations.  I've seen him negotiate in beating companies down to maximize his profits.  He's trying to do that for America.  Good for us.  He may be a bastard.  But he's our bastard.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 07:30:01 pm
I've seen him negotiate in beating companies down to maximize his profits.
Metaphorical or literally.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 07:37:27 pm
Literally.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 07:39:30 pm
I've seen him negotiate in beating children by separating them from their parents.  ;D
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 07:45:25 pm
Well, he didn't break any arms.  But the salesmen cried when he was done.  After Trump's manager of purchasing beat us down to get their lowest price, Trump gets on the line.  The salesmen in the company I was working for at the time should have known better.  You know Trump's going to do this.  But they had already given their  drop dead price to the purchasing manager.  Well, Donald wanted another 5% or 10%.  They couldn't lower the price another dime.  So they refused Donald, nicely of course.  So Donald said thanks, hangs up the phone, never called back,  and gave the job to a competitor.  A foreign company.  German.  Well, there were no tariffs at that time.  :)
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Two23 on June 22, 2018, 07:49:18 pm
More dangerous than the President attacking the news media because he doesn't like what they write?


Yes, considerably more dangerous.  Most of the news media is no longer "news"--it's ideology.  The media mostly puts out propaganda or at best heavily skewed POV.  Politicians then feed off this to inflame their base and get more support.  The media then attacks the politicians (at least those who disagree with the media's orthodoxy--the others get a complete pass,) which then encourages the politicians to harden their positions even more.  It's a vicious cycle that so far no one seems willing to try and stop.  Too much money is being made, too much power is at stake.  The losers are civility and the everyday people who are getting increasingly tired of it all.  Starting late last year, I just turn off the TV etc. 


Kent in SD
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 07:51:58 pm
Starting late last year, I just turn off the TV etc. 
Unnecessary to have on if you have the internet.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 07:54:07 pm
He may be a bastard.  But he's our bastard.
That explains the Trump Doctrine:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/trump-official-were-america-bitch-is-doctrine.html
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 08:00:13 pm
That explains the Trump Doctrine:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/trump-official-were-america-bitch-is-doctrine.html

That's metaphor.  Maybe hyperbole.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 08:04:36 pm
That's metaphor.  Maybe hyperbole.
This staffer quoted means this as maybe hyperbole:
“No,” the official said. “There’s definitely a Trump Doctrine.”
What is it? I asked. Here is the answer I received: “The Trump Doctrine is, ‘We’re America, Bitch.’ That’s the Trump Doctrin“
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 08:15:13 pm
This staffer quoted means this as maybe hyperbole:
“No,” the official said. “There’s definitely a Trump Doctrine.”
What is it? I asked. Here is the answer I received: “The Trump Doctrine is, ‘We’re America, Bitch.’ That’s the Trump Doctrin“
Well, it's crass.  But America has always used it's wealth and military muscle to push its way around the world.  That's how big powers act.  Trump just wants to do it more effectively and is not embarrassed to say that's what he's doing.  Just so others understand where he's going with it.   

On the other hand, he has a streak of isolationism in him.  He really doesn't want us to get into foreign wars where Americans will bleed.  His shock and awe regarding NK is just a bluff to get them to the table.  Going to war is the last thing on his mind. We definitely need to settle this with NK at the negotiating table rather than a battlefield.  Don't you think so?

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 22, 2018, 08:54:57 pm
Well, it's crass. 
But stating he can grab women's pussies isn't.
Quote
Trump just wants to do it more effectively and is not embarrassed to say that's what he's doing.
Expect when he doesn't do anything but talk. He's so effective, he and others told us for days and days he couldn’t change the zero tolerance that separated the kids. Then he did it. Under pressure. 
Quote
On the other hand, he has a streak of isolationism in him.
A tiny, little streak .... Like his great skills at making deals. I await seeing some.
Quote
He really doesn't want us to get into foreign wars where Americans will bleed. 
I agree with that too. I agree about his wants to boast infrastructure. I agree with his recent talk of legalizing weed. Let's see what he actually gets done. Metaphorical promises are like what you guys think are only metaphorical lies.   
Quote
His shock and awe regarding NK is just a bluff to get them to the table
The key word is seem. I agree that the current situation seems better than the days of little rocket man taunts.
IF he doesn't blow up the world, I'll be quite happy.  8)
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 09:43:13 pm
Well we seem to agree more than we disagree.  That's a good start.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 22, 2018, 10:02:01 pm
Well, it's crass.  But America has always used it's wealth and military muscle to push its way around the world.  That's how big powers act.  Trump just wants to do it more effectively and is not embarrassed to say that's what he's doing.  Just so others understand where he's going with it.   

Well, that's ok then.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 22, 2018, 10:12:08 pm
Well, that's ok then.
Sure. For America.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: jeremyrh on June 23, 2018, 04:57:45 am
Well, Donald wanted another 5% or 10%.  They couldn't lower the price another dime.  So they refused Donald, nicely of course.  So Donald said thanks, hangs up the phone, never called back,  and gave the job to a competitor.  A foreign company.  German. 

Which part of that represents "being a great deal maker"? I can do exactly the same - go into Tesco's and demand that they give me beer at a discount, then when they refuse go and buy it at Sainsbury's. I don't see myself writing a book about it.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 23, 2018, 06:18:05 am
Here's an interesting podcast about the California economy: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/05/04/608578696/episode-839-the-indicator-goes-to-california (https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/05/04/608578696/episode-839-the-indicator-goes-to-california), about some of the things have been written about this thread and others regarding the economy and undocumented labour. It's about 30 min long.

The one interesting story is about a 3rd or 4th generation California farmer who refuses to hire undocumented field hands and because of that cannot afford to run his farm anymore because the healthy California economy is providing other jobs that people prefer. He tried switching to crops that require less labour but that only goes so far. His solution was to move part of his operation to Mexico where he found cheaper land and labour.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 23, 2018, 06:26:11 am
Sure. For America.

The jury is still out on that. Long-term strategic decisions have effects that only show up in the long term.

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Chairman Bill on June 23, 2018, 07:02:41 am
What I find most disturbing is not Trump and his fascism, but the American people who are offering apologetics on his behalf.

This is no longer about a difference in politics, this is about choosing between being a humane, caring individual, or an utterly immoral little shit who will excuse the forceful separation of young children from their parents, including pre-verbal children and babies, without papers, with no system in place to reunite them with their parents. This is surely one of the most shameful moments in US history. To not oppose it is to be complicit in an act of evil.

And now to return to some photography. Have fun folks.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 07:29:08 am
Obama was/is eloquent, professorial, oratorial, carefully weighing every word. Therefore, it is easier to take him at his word and not metaphorically.

Trump's speech is far from eloquent, far from professorial, far from oratorial, and is not carefully weighing every word. On the contrary, he speaks in hyperboles, boasting, bragging, joking, simplistically, simple sentences and simple words... and thus connects with his audience far better than Obama and annoys the elite far more than Obama.

One was growing in academia, the other on constructions sites. You can not apply the same metrics in analyzing words of those two guys.
I would really be interested in how much time Trump spent on construction sites.  I suspect it was very little as most all of that type of stuff is delegated out.  In terms of your comment about Trump's speech making, the same could be said of Hitler and we all know the result there.  If you state a lie often enough, it becomes real in many peoples minds.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 07:35:50 am
Well, it's crass.  But America has always used it's wealth and military muscle to push its way around the world.  That's how big powers act.  Trump just wants to do it more effectively and is not embarrassed to say that's what he's doing.  Just so others understand where he's going with it.   
But look how the tariff situation is playing out.  We now have a huge tariff on Canadian newsprint (there is not enough capacity in the US to meet needs, nor will there be with the tariffs).  Small newspapers in rural Trump areas are seeing their per paper cost rise by about five cents.  You might not think this is much but if the paper puts out 12,000 copies a day (slightly more on Sunday) this adds up and they have to lay off news staff as there is not enough money to be saved in other areas.  These are mainly papers that cover local and not national news.  A whiskey distiller in Virginia commented the other day that their European launch is close to being cancelled as they are facing an EU tariff of 20% on their product.  German automakers are now facing a potential US tariff despite the fact that they manufacture a lot of cars here in the US.  If they were really gutsy they would shut down their US operations in retaliation and throw about 50,000 workers (in Tennessee, South Carolina, & Mississippi) out on the street.

Quote
On the other hand, he has a streak of isolationism in him.  He really doesn't want us to get into foreign wars where Americans will bleed.  His shock and awe regarding NK is just a bluff to get them to the table.  Going to war is the last thing on his mind. We definitely need to settle this with NK at the negotiating table rather than a battlefield.  Don't you think so?
If so, why are we still in Afghanistan, Iraq, & Syria?
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 08:00:35 am
It's interesting as this thread is a microcosm of tribal America.  American politics has long been tribal (one should read Achen and Bartels' book (http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2016/03/31/what-do-sharks-have-to-do-with-democracy-christopher-achen-larry-bartels-explain/) on this topic).  That's OK in my mind and we need to accept the voter's decision.  Accept does not mean respect and dissent in America has always played a major role in our society and one always hopes that it is peaceful.

I think the dissent that is taking place on this thread (and others that have preceded it) deal mainly with the character of President Trump.  Some of you have argued that the press is complicit in attacking President Trump; I think this is an incorrect reading.  The mainstream news press face a conundrum in how they write about Presidential statements that are verifiably untrue.  The Washington Post has long published a Fact Checker column where they assess a single claim and give substantial background about its veracity.  The column has covered both Democrats and Republicans, the President and members of Congress.  The fact that it spends more time on the President is indicative of the sheer number of false statements he has issued.  In the long run this is damaging because many will no understand what is true from what is false.

Just this week it was uncovered that President Trump's foundation filed four false tax returns.  President Trump in another 'campaign' rally said there have been 63,000 deaths attributable to illegal immigrants (a number that came from a 2006 press release from Iowa Congressman Steven King that is based on extrapolated data and easily proven wrong).  We have also seen repeated claims that that Democrats are to blame for the immigration laws and so on.

I find it ironic that our Attorney General relies on a Biblical verse (Romans 13) when he seems also to counsel a President who has given short shrift to at least four of the Ten Commandments.  We seem to be moving inexorably to an Orwellian outcome where truth is no longer respected. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 08:20:20 am
The jury is still out on that. Long-term strategic decisions have effects that only show up in the long term.


I agree with you.  However, Trump won running on a campaign of putting America first.  He's carrying out his campaign promises something most politicians fail to do.  Good for him for doing what he said he would do.  If he's wrong, the Republicans and Trump will lose politically and America will be hurt economically and internationally.  If he's right, then the Republicans, Trump and the country will win.  Unfortunately, all the bile about Trumps' policies coming from his political and media adversaries, including the unfortunate situation with the illegals,  are not about helping the country or the kids.  Rather they are attacks on Trump to gain political power for themselves. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 23, 2018, 08:30:00 am
Are the majority of Americans better off under Trump? Is there any sort of data that can be trusted on that? Do people feel better off? Or is it too early to tell?


Not my monkey, not my circus. Just wondering.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: stamper on June 23, 2018, 08:31:08 am
Katrin Eismann is a Photoshop author of whom most members will be aware of ? I liked a post of hers on Facebook.

"In an ideal scenario the President of the United States and the worst human being in the world would be two different people." @TheTweetOfGod

Another quote.

“I am a white privileged straight woman. Until this THING is out of office; I am Black, I am Gay, I am Muslim, I am Poor, I am Trans, I am Mexican, I am an Immigrant, I am a Feminist, and finally I am an American.”
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 08:32:38 am
I would really be interested in how much time Trump spent on construction sites.  I suspect it was very little as most all of that type of stuff is delegated out.  In terms of your comment about Trump's speech making, the same could be said of Hitler and we all know the result there.  If you state a lie often enough, it becomes real in many peoples minds.


So now you're calling Trump like Hitler.  And I suppose I'm like a brown shirt Nazi.  Shame on you. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 08:41:51 am

So now you're calling Trump like Hitler.  And I suppose I'm like a brown shirt Nazi.  Shame on you.
His campaign rallies are not unlike those we have seen in the Riefenstahl films.  The fact that he continues to harp on Hilary Clinton almost two years after the election and the crowds continue their chants of 'lock her up' makes this an apt analogy.  His disdain for the truth is straight out of the authoritarian play book.  He is a bully and will not tolerate dissent of any kind (witness his calling out of Mark Sanford at the Republican House meeting the other day.  Is this just his own insecurity or is it something more?).  He has done fewer press conferences than any other President in my time.  Point to me where I slighted you in any way.

Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Two23 on June 23, 2018, 08:49:25 am
What I find most disturbing is not Trump and his fascism, but the American people who are offering apologetics on his behalf.

This is no longer about a difference in politics, this is about choosing between being a humane, caring individual, or an utterly immoral little shit who will excuse the forceful separation of young children from their parents, including pre-verbal children and babies, without papers, with no system in place to reunite them with their parents. This is surely one of the most shameful moments in US history. To not oppose it is to be complicit in an act of evil.



There are something like 980 million people in Central & South America.  Assume at least half of them are poor, might be more than that.  How many of them are you willing to let come here?  Can you give me a number?  Can you tell me what your solution is to keep us from being overrun by maybe a billion or two people from around the world?  So, can you give me a number of how many you are willing to allow to just walk in here?  If enough people from "there" come "here", then "here" becomes just like "there."  Immigration is not a bad thing, but it must be controlled.  It must be limited.  Can you give me your limit on how many poorly educated, unskilled people from places with corrupt and non-functioning governments you want to come and start voting in our elections?  That's basically what it's all about--voters in elections.  So once again, I ask can you give me a number of how many you want to allow?  I think your honest answer is "just enough so that the Democrat Party quits losing elections."


Kent in SD
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: stamper on June 23, 2018, 08:55:48 am

There are something like 980 million people in Central & South America.  Assume at least half of them are poor, might be more than that.  How many of them are you willing to let come here?  Can you give me a number?  Can you tell me what your solution is to keep us from being overrun by maybe a billion or two people from around the world?  So, can you give me a number of how many you are willing to allow to just walk in here?  If enough people from "there" come "here", then "here" becomes just like "there."  Immigration is not a bad thing, but it must be controlled.  It must be limited.  Can you give me your limit on how many poorly educated, unskilled people from places with corrupt and non-functioning governments you want to come and start voting in our elections?  That's basically what it's all about--voters in elections.  So once again, I ask can you give me a number of how many you want to allow?  I think your honest answer is "just enough so that the Democrat Party quits losing elections."


Kent in SD

98% of Americans are immigrants so a few more immigrants into a vast land won't hurt. :-\
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 08:56:10 am

Immigration is not a bad thing, but it must be controlled.  It must be limited.  Can you give me your limit on how many poorly educated, unskilled people from places with corrupt and non-functioning governments you want to come and start voting in our elections?  That's basically what it's all about--voters in elections.  So once again, I ask can you give me a number of how many you want to allow?  I think your honest answer is "just enough so that the Democrat Party quits losing elections."


Kent in SD
Perhaps a solution to this is to extradite all the non-productive American citizens who don't want to work or are addicted to opioids in exchange for immigrants who do want to work hard.  There was an interesting graphic the other day analyzing the Presidential vote down to the county level and relating it to opioid abuse - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-2016-election-opioid-painkiller-supporters-republican-prescription-study-a8413081.html
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 09:02:05 am
His campaign rallies are not unlike those we have seen in the Riefenstahl films.  The fact that he continues to harp on Hilary Clinton almost two years after the election and the crowds continue their chants of 'lock her up' makes this an apt analogy.  His disdain for the truth is straight out of the authoritarian play book.  He is a bully and will not tolerate dissent of any kind (witness his calling out of Mark Sanford at the Republican House meeting the other day.  Is this just his own insecurity or is it something more?).  He has done fewer press conferences than any other President in my time.  Point to me where I slighted you in any way.



You call him Hitler and by extension his supporters Nazis, and you ask how you slighted me, a Jew?    Are you out to lunch?  You just convinced me there is such a thing as Trump Derangement Syndrome. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 09:07:27 am
You call him Hitler and by extension his supporters Nazis, and you ask how you slighted me, a Jew?    Are you out to lunch?  You just convinced me there is such a thing as Trump Derangement Syndrome.
I never extended the statement to those attending his rallies.  If there is a better analogy for an authoritarian who abused the truth please feel free to provide it.  How can this be Trump Derangement Syndrome.  All that was stated is that President Trump shows little regard for the truth and continues to behave in an authoritarian manner.  I think others have asked this question before, '...do you believe that Trump's accusation of fake news is legitimate?...'  How do you reconcile his constant lying?
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Two23 on June 23, 2018, 09:23:26 am
98% of Americans are immigrants so a few more immigrants into a vast land won't hurt. :-\


That's not true.  What is true that perhaps 98% have an immigrant in their family tree.  I'm a 4th generation American; my wife is 3rd generation American.  No one in my extended family can accurately be called an immigrant.  As for a "few more," you suggest that you too have a limit.  Can you tell me what your limit is, and what your solution is to enforce it?


Kent in SD
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 09:28:19 am

That's not true.  What is true that perhaps 98% have an immigrant in their family tree.  I'm a 4th generation American; my wife is 3rd generation American.  No one in my extended family can accurately be called an immigrant.  As for a "few more," you suggest that you too have a limit.  Can you tell me what your limit is, and what your solution is to enforce it?


Kent in SD
Perhaps if the Native Americans had immigration quotas in the 1600s we would not be confronting this issue today.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Chairman Bill on June 23, 2018, 09:29:04 am

There are something like 980 million people in Central & South America.  Assume at least half of them are poor, might be more than that.  How many of them are you willing to let come here?  Can you give me a number?  Can you tell me what your solution is to keep us from being overrun by maybe a billion or two people from around the world?  So, can you give me a number of how many you are willing to allow to just walk in here?  If enough people from "there" come "here", then "here" becomes just like "there."  Immigration is not a bad thing, but it must be controlled.  It must be limited.  Can you give me your limit on how many poorly educated, unskilled people from places with corrupt and non-functioning governments you want to come and start voting in our elections?  That's basically what it's all about--voters in elections.  So once again, I ask can you give me a number of how many you want to allow?  I think your honest answer is "just enough so that the Democrat Party quits losing elections."


Kent in SD

I said nothing about the issue of immigration. I have no issue with the US or any other state having control over their borders. None of your questions has any bearing on dragging children from their parents & shutting them in cages. But a nice attempt at some whataboutism.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 09:39:03 am
I never extended the statement to those attending his rallies.  If there is a better analogy for an authoritarian who abused the truth please feel free to provide it.  How can this be Trump Derangement Syndrome.  All that was stated is that President Trump shows little regard for the truth and continues to behave in an authoritarian manner.  I think others have asked this question before, '...do you believe that Trump's accusation of fake news is legitimate?...'  How do you reconcile his constant lying?
Stop calling him Hitler and his supporters Nazis.  It's not true and it's insulting.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 23, 2018, 09:39:35 am

There are something like 980 million people in Central & South America.  Assume at least half of them are poor, might be more than that.  How many of them are you willing to let come here?  Can you give me a number?  Can you tell me what your solution is to keep us from being overrun by maybe a billion or two people from around the world?  So, can you give me a number of how many you are willing to allow to just walk in here?  If enough people from "there" come "here", then "here" becomes just like "there."  Immigration is not a bad thing, but it must be controlled.  It must be limited.  Can you give me your limit on how many poorly educated, unskilled people from places with corrupt and non-functioning governments you want to come and start voting in our elections?  That's basically what it's all about--voters in elections.  So once again, I ask can you give me a number of how many you want to allow?  I think your honest answer is "just enough so that the Democrat Party quits losing elections."


Kent in SD

Pointless tangent. Who ever suggested letting in that many people?

The propaganda machine has seemingly succeeded in convincing the richest country on earth that they are under siege and that the rest of the world is their enemy. Why have people fallen for this self-evident claptrap?

There was a column in a local magazine that a few cute examples of countries with which Trump has not started a fight and what they have in common is that they have allowed Trump-related businesses into their countries while he's been in office. Shouldn't this worry you?

When he tweets about specific companies and causes their stock prices to drop, is anyone investigating whether any of his business or buddies benefit from these arbitrary swings?

All of the excuses about metaphor and Trump's verbal style is all incoherent smoke. The main image I have in mind is of him tossing rolls of paper towels at a Puerto Rican press conference. As I said in an earlier post, try to picture him doing that to a bunch of Iowa famers after a major flood.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Robert Roaldi on June 23, 2018, 09:40:52 am
Stop calling him Hitler and his supporters Nazis.  It's not true and it's insulting.

Charlottesville.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 09:41:57 am
Perhaps if the Native Americans had immigration quotas in the 1600s we would not be confronting this issue today.
The Indians did have immigration quotas.  It was zero immigrants.  They didn't want Europeans on their land.  But they lost.  We may lose too. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 09:43:30 am
Pointless tangent. Who ever suggested letting in that many people?..l

Nobody needs to suggest it, it would happen anyway.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 23, 2018, 09:43:49 am

There are something like 980 million people in Central & South America.  Assume at least half of them are poor, might be more than that.  How many of them are you willing to let come here?

Sorry, but that's a typical kneejerk FUD type of remark.

Hasn't anyone wondered that by helping the home countries of these people, or improving their human rights position, there might not be a need(!) for or a benefit to emigration? I'm not talking about economic fortune seekers, but people who think that separating from, and sending their children unaccompanied to another country is a better option than keeping them at home (without food or under fear of prosecution).

But then, that is not being helped by pulling out of trade agreements and the USA withdrawing From United Nations Human Rights Council. I'm not saying that all these agreements are perfect, or that the UNHRC is perfect, far from it in the latter case. But how does not talking help, anyone?

Isolation is a demonstration of moral bankruptcy. Closing one's eyes/ears doesn't make the bad stuff go away.

Anyway, this thread has again proven the power of images, manipulated or otherwise.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 09:55:03 am
Charlottesville.
Rob, People can have legitimate complaints about what happened there.  But Americans have been loathed to call other politicians Hitler so horrendous was Hitler's policies and actions.  You don't out-of-hand identify someone who gassed millions of people, and killed millions more in aggressive war and unilateral attacks on all of his European neighbors.  In undermines just how terrible Hitler was and accuses the current politician and his supporters of crimes against humanity that never happened.  It should be off limits.   I hope you can see my point. 

 Frankly it weakens your point because people just think you're being insulting and hyperbolic to the point they don't believe you.  They think it's just political and your arguments are invalid. Sure your supporters will eat it up.  But thinking people, independents, will see you're over the top. Maybe I shouldn't be telling you this. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 09:58:21 am
If he's wrong, the Republicans and Trump will lose politically and America will be hurt economically and internationally.  If he's right, then the Republicans, Trump and the country will win. 
2+2 equals 4, therefore, the Earth is flat.
It's really somewhat interesting to see how fellow Americans minds work. If Trump lies, it's because he's taken literally, it's not a lie. If a Dem lies, it's a lie.
We should lock Clinton up for her email server. But Manafort is a 'good guy' deserves a pardon, didn't do anything wrong, like Flynn, lying to the FBI isn't a lie, it's because what he told them was taken literally.
Obama put immigrant kids into detention, so Trump is no worse despite the massive differences in how and why those kids ended up in detention.
Someone objected to Hilter. When Rep. Randy Weber said Obama is basically worse than Hitler, because he's a Republican, we should not be so upset, he didn't mean it literally.
To my non American readers here; I'm sorry you have to see this shitstorm and worse, it affects you. Many Americans are as shocked and saddened as our minds don't work like some here. The majority of American voters did not vote for Trump (oh, then there is his conspiracies about voter fraud, like so many of his claims, a bold face lie that has zero proof). We'll get this fixed and hopefully we'll be better for the experience but it will take time. Meanwhile, unfortunately, the US has white immigrants that believe in racism, the concept that their opponents should be locked up, that the free press is all fake, that one needs no compassion for babies removed from their moms etc.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 09:58:58 am
But Americans have been loathed to call other politicians Hitler so horrendous was Hitler's policies and actions. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/01/13/texas-congressman-randy-weber-says-obama-is-basically-worse-than-hitler/?utm_term=.0cb5456c2e53
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 10:04:43 am
Nobody needs to suggest it, it would happen anyway.
IOW, I'm in, now shut the door. Got it. As to it would happen (all would flee here) more speculation you consider fact, like lies are metaphors. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 10:08:40 am
What I find most disturbing is not Trump and his fascism, but the American people who are offering apologetics on his behalf.

This is no longer about a difference in politics, this is about choosing between being a humane, caring individual, or an utterly immoral little shit who will excuse the forceful separation of young children from their parents, including pre-verbal children and babies, without papers, with no system in place to reunite them with their parents. This is surely one of the most shameful moments in US history. To not oppose it is to be complicit in an act of evil.

And now to return to some photography. Have fun folks.

Dear Bill,

You just constructed a giant straw man and then called us who see it as such “utterly immoral little shit.”

Sincerely,

Slobodan,
Your utterly immoral little shit
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 23, 2018, 10:09:01 am
98% of Americans are immigrants so a few more immigrants into a vast land won't hurt. :-\

The problem with that logic, Robert, is that if you follow it to its conclusion you have to admit that we're all immigrants unless we came from the place where man first became man. I think that was somewhere in Southeast Asia, though current "science" disagrees. My equally scientific conclusion comes from having spent a couple years there and waking in the night feeling it in my bones.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 10:10:11 am
Stop calling him Hitler and his supporters Nazis.  It's not true and it's insulting.
Show me one statement where I called his supporters Nazis (there were lots of Germans who supported Hitler that were never party members).  If you don't like the HItler analogy, tough toenails as it is an apt one as any viewer of the old propaganda films can easily see.  You should really read 'The True Believer' by Eric Hoffer and you would quickly see the appeal of Trump for those who do not believe in facts.  You still have never answered the question about whether this continual lying by our President is good for the country.  Tribalism is OK and a fact of life but disbelief in the truth is not and quickly leads to authoritarianism.  the fact that a lot of us are concerned about this feature of this President speaks to this point.  You can continue to support him but I am surprised that you cannot acknowledge his blatant attacks on the truth.  I don't know how else to put it.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 10:10:53 am
Sorry, but that's a typical kneejerk FUD type of remark.

Hasn't anyone wondered that by helping the home countries of these people, or improving their human rights position, there might not be a need(!) for or a benefit to emigration? I'm not talking about economic fortune seekers, but people who think that separating from, and sending their children unaccompanied to another country is a better option than keeping them at home (without food or under fear of prosecution).

But then, that is not being helped by pulling out of trade agreements and the USA withdrawing From United Nations Human Rights Council. I'm not saying that all these agreements are perfect, or that the UNHRC is perfect, far from it in the latter case. But how does not talking help, anyone?

Isolation is a demonstration of moral bankruptcy. Closing one's eyes/ears doesn't make the bad stuff go away.

Anyway, this thread has again proven the power of images, manipulated or otherwise.

Cheers,
Bart
Bart, You're not American and you don't live in America.  Who are you to tell us how many immigrants to take in?  You should take them into your country in Europe if you feel so strongly about it. I read the papers and it seems most European countries are trying to pass off refugees escaping war in their own countries to other  European countries.  No one wants them.  But we should open our borders to everyone who thinks they should be here.  We are country that does allow immigration.  We allow approximately 1,000,000 immigrants into our country every year.  The current total of legal immigrants is now over 35,000,000.  We will continue to allow immigration.  It's part of our heritage.  But it has to be legal. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 23, 2018, 10:11:34 am
. . .President Trump shows little regard for the truth. . .

Perhaps, Alan, but he shows a hell of a lot more regard for the truth than does Time magazine.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 10:21:27 am
Stop calling him Hitler and his supporters Nazis.  It's not true and it's insulting.
Alan, get real!  Here is the exact quote from my original post, "...In terms of your comment about Trump's speech making, the same could be said of Hitler and we all know the result there.  If you state a lie often enough, it becomes real in many peoples minds..." 

This was a comparison of Trump's ongoing campaign rallies (despite the fact the election was decided almost two years ago now).  I'm just asking you to understand an analogy.  Do you disagree with the second sentence of the above quote?  You and others still have not addressed the key thing that a lot of lying is going on at these rallies and in his Tweets.  Do you think this is good for political discourse or for America in general?  Of course the common response is that this is all 'fake news' even when there is ample documentation to show that it is an outright lie and not even a slight bending of the truth.  He was caught in another one yesterday when he commented on the increase crime in Germany last year after a lot immigration was permitted.  German statistics showed this to be demonstrably false.

My question is, how can you tolerate this????
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Klein on June 23, 2018, 10:25:30 am
Show me one statement where I called his supporters Nazis (there were lots of Germans who supported Hitler that were never party members).  If you don't like the HItler analogy, tough toenails as it is an apt one as any viewer of the old propaganda films can easily see.  You should really read 'The True Believer' by Eric Hoffer and you would quickly see the appeal of Trump for those who do not believe in facts.  You still have never answered the question about whether this continual lying by our President is good for the country.  Tribalism is OK and a fact of life but disbelief in the truth is not and quickly leads to authoritarianism.  the fact that a lot of us are concerned about this feature of this President speaks to this point.  You can continue to support him but I am surprised that you cannot acknowledge his blatant attacks on the truth.  I don't know how else to put it.

Obama lied about Obamacare.  He lied about secret agreements to Iran.  He lied about what happened in Benghazi.  He lied about the games the IRS played during the 2012 election. But no one called him Hitler.  Sure, Trump lies.  Heck, most politicians lie.  Where have you been?  What's the joke.  "How do you know when a politician is lying?  Well, his lips are moving."


However, that doesn't give you the right to called a politician Hitler and by extension his supporters brown shirts. 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 10:32:54 am
Here is a good column (https://www.propublica.org/article/jared-kushner-grandparents-refugees-america-immigration)on Jared Kushner's grandparents who escaped the Holocaust but had to live as refuges for some time before coming into the US.  Money quote from his grandmother, “For the Jews, the doors were closed. We never understood that. Even President Roosevelt kept the doors closed. Why?”
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 10:35:52 am
However, that doesn't give you the right to called a politician Hitler and by extension his supporters brown shirts.
Your demonstrable lack of reading comprehension regarding my original statement and the re-posting and explanation is just too curious.  If you cannot understand an analogy to an action, "campaign rallies" than this part of the discussion is indeed over.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 23, 2018, 10:40:30 am
Time to shut it down, Jeremy. Alan's lost it again.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 10:40:38 am
So, Alan G., you are basicallly conforming that:

- you compared Trump to Hitler via “analogy”
- by extension, Trump supporters to Hitler supporters
- your “analogy” was correct and justified
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 10:46:42 am
So, Alan G., you are basicallly conforming that:

- you compared Trump to Hitler via “analogy”
- by extension, Trump supporters to Hitler supporters
- your “analogy” was correct and justified
Analogy, metaphor or lie, some here can’t see a difference!
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 10:51:21 am
Time to shut it down, Jeremy. Alan's lost it again.
Ah Yes, censorship is the answer when calling it fake news does not work. Trump would be proud of you if his examples are to be used by his supporters.
Shut down the entire forum; force us to debate Photogrpaphy, force both sides to post such topics elsewhere on the web; I am ok with that!
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 10:54:55 am
Ah Yes, censorship is the answer when calling it fake news does not work...

Oh, dear! Says a supporter of political correctness, the most corrosive form of censorship.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Peter McLennan on June 23, 2018, 11:03:46 am
My favourite Trump supporter line is “He tells it like it is!”
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 23, 2018, 11:14:54 am
Oh, dear! Says a supporter of political correctness, the most corrosive form of censorship.

What does that say about (political) incorrectness?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 11:16:02 am
My favourite Trump supporter line is “He tells it like it is!”
He does when one suspends all evidence based logical facts:
“Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.” -Voltaire
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 11:28:06 am
Analogy, metaphor or lie, some here can’t see a difference!
+1, it's amazing how people interpret a sentence for their own ends.  I thought the comparator was pretty clear.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 23, 2018, 11:30:16 am
+1, it's amazing how people interpret a sentence for their own ends.  I thought the comparator was pretty clear.

It was clear, that's why it hurts.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 11:32:38 am
He does when one suspends all evidence based logical facts:
“Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.” -Voltaire
"Hatred is the most accessible and comprehensive of all unifying agents." - Eric Hoffer, "The True Believer" #65
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 11:43:52 am
"Hatred is the most accessible and comprehensive of all unifying agents." - Eric Hoffer, "The True Believer" #65
Further, with respect to Trump, who is so much talk about strength:
"Rudeness is the weak mans imitation of strength." - Eric Hoffer
Rudeness is IMHO, a kind description of our President’s behavior.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 11:45:34 am
What does that say about (political) incorrectness?...

A lot... about freedom of speech.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 11:46:05 am
Another great Hoffer quote, "To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason.  It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make beliefs possible.  What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs."  #56
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 11:49:35 am
...  "Rudeness is the weak mans imitation of strength." - Eric Hoffer...

Look who is talking.

Show me where I, Alan K, Kent, etc, used any rudeness in addressing our fellow forum members. In the meantime, we were called "pathetic human beings," "immoral little shit," racists, Nazis, etc.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 23, 2018, 11:54:03 am
Exactly, Slobodan. You're dealing with the considerate and learned left.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 11:54:42 am
Look who is talking.
Show me where I, Alan K, Kent, etc, used any rudeness in addressing our fellow forum members. In the meantime, we were called "pathetic human beings," "immoral little shit," racists, Nazis, etc.
You read and comprehend based on your own agenda and bias! I was referring to Trump. Show me where I stated you, Alan K or Kent were rude. You can't. Because I didn't. The guy you presumably voted for, lots and lots of evidence you'll call fake news. Even though, he's been recorded on video and through Twitter doing exactly that. Calling him rude (for just his comments about grabbing women) is a fact, unless you'd like to now tell us it was doctored by Obama or the FBI or the deep state. Or that ONE statement about grabbing woman isn't in your opinion rude.
The hypocrites continue and the hypocrites can't see it as such.
That’s just the results of your confirmation bias:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 11:59:22 am
Exactly, Slobodan. You're dealing with the considerate and learned left.
Exactly, 2+2 equals 4, therefore the Earth is flat.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 11:59:36 am
In another thread, I called a fellow member's post processing result "horrible" and got a warning from the moderator for the lack of curtesy. And here we can be called names like "immoral little shit." This is not a dig at the moderator, by the way, but at the "politically correct" crowd where the PC goes only one way.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 23, 2018, 12:01:00 pm
A lot... about freedom of speech.

Ah, I see where the confusion comes from.
Just to remind, freedom comes with the responsibility to use it wisely ...

And it works both ways:
"“Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone else says anything back, that is an outrage.”

― Winston S. Churchill
"

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 12:05:28 pm
In another thread, I called a fellow member's post processing result "horrible" and got a warning from the moderator for the lack of curtesy. And here we can be called names like "immoral little shit." This is not a dig at the moderator, by the way, but at the "politically correct" crowd where the PC goes only one way.
Please, point out where YOU were called that. I can't find the post. I can find a post where Trump was referenced using that language. Are you posting here Mr. President under the alias of Slododan?
Again, if you were specifically called an immoral little shit, it's wrong and should be dealt with by the moderator. That it isn't could perhaps be because once again, you're not reading what other's write outside your own bubble and assume it's directed at you. I see no evidence of this but I ask you to educate me to where you were called this foul name. If you can't, I suggest you consider reading people's posts a bit slower or repeatedly before posting and crying foul. If you can find the post where you were called this, I support your efforts for moderation.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:06:20 pm
...Or that ONE statement about grabbing woman isn't in your opinion rude...

And indeed it isn't. It was a simple statement of fact. Every man, but gay and hopelessly single, has done that. He was just luckier than the rest of us for being offered that, without having to buy dinner and flowers first.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 23, 2018, 12:07:08 pm
You can not compare European and US immigration. Europe is awful at it. Not saying splitting up family’s is excusable at all.

Don’t think everyone wants to move to the US by the way. I moved for 6 months, had a job, an American girslfriend and other blood relatives.  It just wasn’t for me. No country is perfect of course but the US has a tremendous amount going for it.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:07:31 pm
Ah, I see where the confusion comes from.
Just to remind, freedom comes with the responsibility to use it wisely ...

Nope. It is either free or it is not. Here it is free, not so much in Europe, so I can see why you are confused.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 12:09:05 pm
And indeed it isn't. It was a simple statement of fact. Every man, but gay and hopelessly single, has done that.
No! This man has never done that. Perhaps growing up with three sisters and no bothers, and pretty good parents instilled a sense of respect for women some here and some in the White House don't have. PLEASE don't lump me and all other men in such an absurd generalization. I'll ignore what appears to be a somewhat homophonic comment which is also utterly absurd. Meanwhile,you have some post searching to do, to back up your claims that you were called.....
Post less, read more?
"Listen to understand instead of listening to respond." Ronald Reagan***
 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: PeterAit on June 23, 2018, 12:19:44 pm
Sheesh, don't you people even READ things before you get all het up? I read the entire original article, twice, and nowhere does it say the little girl was separated from her mother. In fact it explicitly says that they (mother and child) were put in a van to be transported. No fake news here.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:20:20 pm
... where you were called this foul name...

Let's see...

The longer quote from Bill is (bold mine): "an utterly immoral little shit who will excuse the forceful separation of young children from their parents..."

Obviously, several of us here who are seeing the separation in different light are, according to Bill, "excusing it." Right? If so, the insult was directed to us, under a thin veil of not being personally specific. Just like being called racist, Nazi, etc. under the same thin veil of non-specificity.

 
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:22:35 pm
Sheesh, don't you people even READ things before you get all het up? I read the entire original article, twice, and nowhere does it say the little girl was separated from her mother. In fact it explicitly says that they (mother and child) were put in a van to be transported. No fake news here.

Not sure which article you are referring to, but it was most likely written AFTER it was already known that the original interpretation of the image was false.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:25:22 pm
... That’s just the results of your confirmation bias:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

While you were busy studying for a PhD in googling, I actually got a real, academic, postgraduate degree for studying, among other things, confirmation bias.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 12:29:40 pm
Let's see...

The longer quote from Bill is (bold mine): "an utterly immoral little shit who will excuse the forceful separation of young children from their parents..."
So you're taking responsibility for the separation of young children Slodoban? Because Bill didn't say you did. Yet you wish to take that on as your burden.
Let's see blindly is more like it.
NO WHERE yet did anyone say you or the other's stated this because that statement wasn't made that I can find. Maybe you're just feeling guilty and associating yourself with that act or maybe you are Trump posting under an alias. But the reason the post wasn't pulled or locked down appears to me, and I hope our moderators, is because the text you find so offensive was not directed at you.
Quote
Obviously, several of us here who are seeing the separation in different light are, according to Bill, "excusing it." Right?
Wrong and not obvious. But if you insist on taking direct responsibly instead of Trump and Sessions, then perhaps that insult was directed specifically at you. Like most of your posting here, zero evidence of that; perhaps you should take Bills comments as metaphorical instead of literally....
As usual, you expect to have it both ways.  :P
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 12:31:25 pm
While you were busy studying for a PhD in googling, I actually got a real, academic, postgraduate degree for studying, among other things, confirmation bias.
Fake news, what you say you studied is all to be taken metaphorically anyway.  ;D
Did you metaphorically grab women as you state all males did?
It was a simple statement of fact. Every man, but gay and hopelessly single, has done that.
Gay or single?
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:37:22 pm
So you're taking responsibility for the separation of young children Slodoban Slobodan?.

I even put the word "excuse" in bold, hoping you will notice it, alas...

I certainly do not and can not take responsibility for the government actions. I can, however, agree with it (or as Bill would say "excuse" it). Bill was not talking about originators of the policy (Trump) but about Americans who "excuse" it.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 12:38:13 pm
While you were busy studying for a PhD in googling, I actually got a real, academic, postgraduate degree for studying, among other things, confirmation bias.
And I actually got a degree in photography.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:39:19 pm
... Did you metaphorically grab women as you state all males did?...

Neither I stated it metaphorically, nor I did it metaphorically, but literally. I hope you had the same pleasure. If not, that would explain a lot.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 12:40:06 pm
I even put the word "excuse" in bold, hoping you will notice it, alas...
I saw that. It's Trumps excuse, maybe it's yours. But no where did Bill point this at you specifically; a point you can't accept. Because you take literally what serves your agenda and bias, and metaphorically when it doesn't. 
Let's see how the mod's react. Or as I hope, don't.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 12:42:37 pm
And I actually got a degree in photography.

Great!

Then why don't you listen to the advice given to you by a friendly forum member in the now-locked thread (bold mine):

Quote
... So why try to show your ignorance on this subject and ruin all the years of hard work you have put into Photography.

Andrew save yourself while you still have a chance.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: digitaldog on June 23, 2018, 12:43:21 pm
Sheesh, don't you people even READ things before you get all het up? I read the entire original article, twice, and nowhere does it say the little girl was separated from her mother.
2+2 equals 4, therefore no children where separated from their mothers. Sheesh indeed.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 01:00:46 pm
Look who is talking.

Show me where I, Alan K, Kent, etc, used any rudeness in addressing our fellow forum members. In the meantime, we were called "pathetic human beings," "immoral little shit," racists, Nazis, etc.
Who called any of you a Nazi.  Please document the exact quote that alleges this.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 01:09:04 pm
Who called any of you a Nazi.  Please document the exact quote that alleges this.

Ok... I'll use the same strategy then: anyone who disagrees with Trump is a deranged little piece of shit, a commie, Bernie's Brown Shirt, no-brain idiot, etc.

And some here (won't name names, wink, wink) might be all that too.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on June 23, 2018, 01:10:47 pm
Ok... I'll use the same strategy then: anyone who disagrees with Trump is a deranged little piece of shit, a commie, Bernie's Brown Shirt, no-brain idiot, etc.

And some here might be all that too.
I really would expect much better from someone of your intellect.  We are talking reading comprehension here and all of the statements made this far that you disagree with did not support your original allegation.  If this is the best that you can offer it is truly disappointing.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 23, 2018, 01:13:44 pm
... We are talking reading comprehension here...

It is precisely because our quite fine reading comprehension, thank you, that we are protesting the constant barrage of thinly veiled insults.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: RSL on June 23, 2018, 01:24:58 pm
Exactly, 2+2 equals 4, therefore the Earth is flat.
I guess if that's what you want to believe, Andrew, we'll let you believe it.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Schewe on June 23, 2018, 02:23:09 pm
Ok... I'll use the same strategy then: anyone who disagrees with Trump is a deranged little piece of shit, a commie, Bernie's Brown Shirt, no-brain idiot, etc.

And some here (won't name names, wink, wink) might be all that too.

Yeah, well this has been a real treat....but with that I think I'll lock this thread to save some of you from yourselves...

It's one thing to debate and argue but it's another thing when things get personal.

you all can go pile on each other in the Stoned Cat thread...I'm taking the liberty of locking this one.
Title: Re: How do you like him now? Trump vs the little kid.
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on June 23, 2018, 03:21:37 pm
Jeff, if you hadn't locked it, I would have done. And if I'd done it, several people here would have been banned.

As it is, I shall not act against anyone personally. The behaviour has been noted, though, and some are skating on very thin ice indeed.

[edit]

Let me be specific. This topic plainly arouses exceptionally strong feelings and it is for that reason alone that I have refrained from imposing bans on several contributors who in any other circumstances would have received that which they deserve.

There will be no more threads on this subject, as three have demonstrated (along with affirming Godwin's Law) that rational discussion is impossible. Any that are started will be closed.

[/edit]

Jeremy