Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: HCHeyerdahl on May 16, 2018, 05:41:16 am
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Stumbled accross this while searching for drivers to my Z3200:
https://press.ext.hp.com/us/en/press-releases/2018/hp-launches-state-of-the-art-large-format-photo-printers.html
Chris
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Stumbled accross this while searching for drivers to my Z3200:
https://press.ext.hp.com/us/en/press-releases/2018/hp-launches-state-of-the-art-large-format-photo-printers.html
Chris
Quickly adding interesting Z9 features from the press release:
9 inks instead of 12 (including RGB HP Vivid Photo Inks, featuring chromatic red, chromatic green, and chromatic blue).
vertical trimmer
dual roll support
internal Xrite spectro
gloss optimizer capability can be added later (Optional upgrade available second half 2018)
very interesting printers!
A youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HznCR3WSk8A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HznCR3WSk8A)
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9 inks instead of 12 (including RGB HP Vivid Photo Inks, featuring chromatic red, chromatic green, and chromatic blue).
I guess indeed more vivid colours but fading harder than the vivera inks... ?
we will see.
I can imagine they are more competitive against the Epsons and the Canons.
Both have chosen the path of more vivid.
- I remember not wanting to use kodachrome slides for i did not like the colours...
Now, when i scan a kodachome slide it turns out to be the best type of slide i have ever used- the colours i can tweak...
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I guess indeed more vivid colours but fading harder than the vivera inks... ?
we will see.
I can imagine they are more competitive against the Epsons and the Canons.
Both have chosen the path of more vivid.
- I remember not wanting to use kodachrome slides for i did not like the colours...
Now, when i scan a kodachome slide it turns out to be the best type of slide i have ever used- the colours i can tweak...
As I understand from the video I linked above, for example instead of using light magenta it drops a smaller magenta dot so the extra color isn't needed?
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I wish them well and hope it works, but reading the press release with all its hyperbolic wording leaves me a bit nauseous (the PR people had a field day with this). But until it's tested I won't believe anything.
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http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/4AA7-2600ENE.pdf
http://www8.hp.com/h20195/v2/GetPDF.aspx/4AA7-2603ENA.pdf
The Z9+ model is the interesting machine. In general the same hues as in the Z3200 but without one grey dilution and one magenta, on the Z3200 the cyan was already reduced to a cyan light only. Dual droplet system to solve the absence of C/M light photo inks. The gloss enhancer is on this machine an optional extra print channel, which would make 10 channels in total. Wonder what the inks per head are in this case, 3 instead of 2 and the gloss one as an extra head? Not so I see in the PDFs. Vertical cutter next to the horizontal cutter (top version 44"model only) could save time and possibly no need for a long cutting machine. Wonder whether it could cut in the printed area too. Spectrometer still aboard. Pigment inks, faster heads, faster even than the Z5600. Adobe Postscript interpreter. 300ML cartridges.
Edit: Vivid inks were already used on the Z6200 printer. 8 ink model though, Chromatic Red included
Ink drop 7/3 pl dual-drop weight (M, C, PK, CB, G); 6 pl single-drop weight (Y, CR, MK, CG),
6pl and 4pl droplet was used on the Z3200 but fixed per ink channel.
The MK 6pl will get assistance of the PK 7/3pl and G 7/3pl to create smoother output.
Matte Dmax will be the same given the same MK droplet size.
5 heads though so classical HP 2 inks per head formation, wonder how the GE part is solved then when not used.
Head price slightly less than 80 Euro excl. VAT each as already shown on some sites. I get the impression that the head is universal so not loaded with inks or then loaded with another fluid. If so it has a pro and a con. Less heads to keep in reserve, more ink lost when implanted. Explains a bit that the Gloss Enhancer channel can stay unused.
Comparable fading test, given no Light Cyan and Light Magenta is used in the Z9+, it may be even better;
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/WIR_HP_Z6200_2017_03_08.pdf
As noted before papers are not really tested by Wilhelm and the tests are not as thorough as Aardenburg Imaging did/does.
All sounds like a worthy upgrade for the Z3200
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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It's about time that HP has decided to update their aqueous ink large format Z series printers! Be interesting to see the updated specs, including prices. From the video, it looks like they will be faster? But sticking to their light fast tested Vivera inks!!!
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No embedded spectrophotometer.
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No embedded spectrophotometer.
Except here's a screenshot from the Z9 data sheet I found at www.HP.com/go/designjetZ9 (http://www.hp.com/go/designjetZ9)
Embedded spectro appears to be listed, but the promotional stuff is sure downplaying it...hmm, wonder why?
Pricing info at that link as well.
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No embedded spectrophotometer.
First linked PDF note 13 says otherwise.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
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And much faster
Based on internal HP testing. Up to 2.5 times faster printing compared to the HP DesignJet Z3200 Photo Printer series. May vary depending on print mode and media type.
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As a previous Z3200 user, I was amazed by their B&W print quality with Quad K ink set.
Since they have dropped out one of the diluted K ink, wondering how does the B&W print compare to it's predecessor.
ps.1 - On the leaflet, it does said it has an embedded spectrophotometer
ps.2 - Seriously, I really don't like the design of the loading system. You have to go the the back of the printer and load paper? So, I either have to make some space behind the printer or I will have to move the printer everytime when I need to load a new roll into it......... What were they thinking! (This is what I didn't like my Z3200 as well, plus some other things. But still, the quality is still the best even compare to today's machines from Epson or Canon)
aaron
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As a previous Z3200 user, I was amazed by their B&W print quality with Quad K ink set.
Since they have dropped out one of the diluted K ink, wondering how does the B&W print compare to it's predecessor.
ps.1 - On the leaflet, it does said it has an embedded spectrophotometer
ps.2 - Seriously, I really don't like the design of the loading system. You have to go the the back of the printer and load paper? So, I either have to make some space behind the printer or I will have to move the printer everytime when I need to load a new roll into it......... What were they thinking! (This is what I didn't like my Z3200 as well, plus some other things. But still, the quality is still the best even compare to today's machines from Epson or Canon)
aaron
As I understand it sheet loading from above for thinner media. Thicker media and rolls from the rear. 500 gsm max weight but still the 0.8mm media thickness.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtf-A3-Bvfk
HP Pixel Control; Let me imagine; other algorithms that have a straighter path between pixels to dots than the "CMYK separation > N-color hue angle saturation substitution + heavy UCR" route used so far. What the Z3200 must have had to fill in the absence of the Cyan ink and probably did with the Light Cyan + Blue and Green inks. In the Z9 used with all hues available.
I wonder whether the Optical Media Advance Sensor as used on the Z6100/Z6200 etc found its way into this machine too. Should improve the droplet addressing compared to the servo system om the media transport of the Z3200 etc models. Think of it as an optical mouse but that one stationary and the media running underneath it.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Just at a time where I was wondering whether to stick to Epson or go another route... ;)
What about pricing and availability?
Cheers,
Bernard
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US pricing. I called my rep for Canadian pricing.
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/large-format-printers/designjet-printers/z9-series.html
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US pricing. I called my rep for Canadian pricing.
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/large-format-printers/designjet-printers/z9-series.html
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Surely, I can't be the ONLY one that wants to see a 60" version. In my eyes, that would make this printer, 'as close to perfect' as I need
BIG fan of CMYKRGB
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I would like to see a 64” version.
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Surely, I can't be the ONLY one that wants to see a 60" version. In my eyes, that would make this printer, 'as close to perfect' as I need
BIG fan of CMYKRGB
Yes, I expected that it would be included in the range too given the competition. HP has Designjets that wide but not with 10 or 12 inks.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Here is a link (at least for HP in the US) to order print samples from the new printer. I've ordered my samples, but I guess it is a sign of the evolving technology that I'm not waiting with bated breath to see them. I expect that they will look great, but most printers look great with carefully chosen images and media. It's all the other things that are not in promotional videos that I care about. Bring on the first person reviews!
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Here is the link, looks like they send to Canada as well.
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/large-format-printers/orderprintsamples.html?series=z#/ (http://www8.hp.com/us/en/large-format-printers/orderprintsamples.html?series=z#/)
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Oops. I posted a linkless link. Thanks, @stevenfr.
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I would like to see a 64” version.
+1.
Not interested without 60"+ capability.
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Interesting.
I wonder how well the dual droplet sizes makes up for the lack of light colour inks. Epson has had variable droplet size for a long time, but I believe they use it for speed rather than gamut, using larger droplets and reducing the print resolution in lower-quality print modes (i.e. at the highest quality setting, every droplet is 3pL). If HP are using variable droplet size even at the highest resolution, they may be achieving a higher ink density (6pL drops in a 2400x1200dpi pattern), although this would likely benefit dark/saturated colours more than the colours that typically benefit from light inks.
Certainly, the black-and-white output should be even better, given that there are now effectively five densities of black instead of four (MK, large and small droplets of PK, large and small droplets of G).
But the really relevant comparison will be the print longevity tests, compared with the Z3200. Going backwards isn't out of the question - just look at the Canon Lucia Pro inks compared with the previous Lucia EX range.
So far, the only result we have that can be used for a direct comparison is on HP Professional Matte Canvas. Unframed, under a bare bulb, Wilhelm gives it a rating of 150 years with the Z3200 and 99 years with the Z6200, and >230 years vs 134 years for dark storage. But the Z6200 isn't the Z9, even if it also uses HP Vivid Photo inks - it uses LM, LC and LG inks, whereas the Z9 doesn't use light inks at all. It would be valuable to know which particular inks/colours are causing the increased fade rates compared with the Z3200 - is it just the light inks, or the entire inkset? On the other thing, the fact that HP is claiming improved gamut with a smaller inkset may not be a good thing in this regard - does this mean that they're using less dense inks, with smaller pigment particles, which will give brighter colours (and more capacity to replace the light inks) at the expense of faster fading?
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Interesting.
I wonder how well the dual droplet sizes makes up for the lack of light colour inks. Epson has had variable droplet size for a long time, but I believe they use it for speed rather than gamut, using larger droplets and reducing the print resolution in lower-quality print modes (i.e. at the highest quality setting, every droplet is 3pL). If HP are using variable droplet size even at the highest resolution, they may be achieving a higher ink density (6pL drops in a 2400x1200dpi pattern), although this would likely benefit dark/saturated colours more than the colours that typically benefit from light inks.
Certainly, the black-and-white output should be even better, given that there are now effectively five densities of black instead of four (MK, large and small droplets of PK, large and small droplets of G).
But the really relevant comparison will be the print longevity tests, compared with the Z3200. Going backwards isn't out of the question - just look at the Canon Lucia Pro inks compared with the previous Lucia EX range.
So far, the only result we have that can be used for a direct comparison is on HP Professional Matte Canvas. Unframed, under a bare bulb, Wilhelm gives it a rating of 150 years with the Z3200 and 99 years with the Z6200, and >230 years vs 134 years for dark storage. But the Z6200 isn't the Z9, even if it also uses HP Vivid Photo inks - it uses LM, LC and LG inks, whereas the Z9 doesn't use light inks at all. It would be valuable to know which particular inks/colours are causing the increased fade rates compared with the Z3200 - is it just the light inks, or the entire inkset? On the other thing, the fact that HP is claiming improved gamut with a smaller inkset may not be a good thing in this regard - does this mean that they're using less dense inks, with smaller pigment particles, which will give brighter colours (and more capacity to replace the light inks) at the expense of faster fading?
Just because the ink set says it's pigment based doesn't mean it's 100% pigment, sometimes dyes are added to either extend the gamut and/or get a better overall color balance. This is my guess as the why the new Canon ink set has better gamut and reds in particular but has much less display life. HP could easily have made the same trade off. We won't know for sure until the accelerated aging tests are made.
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Just because the ink set says it's pigment based doesn't mean it's 100% pigment, sometimes dyes are added to either extend the gamut and/or get a better overall color balance. This is my guess as the why the new Canon ink set has better gamut and reds in particular but has much less display life. HP could easily have made the same trade off. We won't know for sure until the accelerated aging tests are made.
When they do this, it's normally quite obvious on accelerated ageing tests. The dyes fade away quickly, causing an initial rapid colour change, with the rate of change slowing down rapidly once the dyes fade and only the pigments are left. This leaves a noticeable kink in the density-vs-time graphs for these inks.
I didn't think anyone had done this in an OEM inkset for a while.
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Just as critical as the inkset performance will be the Z9's handling and reliability, particularly when used intermittently. This was one of the biggest advantages of the Z3200 over Epson/Canon for the photographer, as opposed to the large-volume print shop - you could go away for three months, come back and the printer would work perfectly.
The fact that they've retained the disposable, user-replaceable heads is a very good thing, as opposed to Epson's heads, which cost $1500 or so and require an expensive technician callout to replace. The retention of the inbuilt spectro is also a nod towards small-volume users. But clog-free reliability will be a major factor for individual users - even cheap, easily-replaceable printheads aren't worth much if they clog after you leave them alone for a week like the Epsons.
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But clog-free reliability will be a major factor for individual users - even cheap, easily-replaceable printheads aren't worth much if they clog after you leave them alone for a week like the Epsons.
Very true. Only experience can tell.
Possibly worth mentioning is that the Z9+ docs mention a realistic preview, for everyone still scared to click the print button on the Z3200 preview with its neoncolor management.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Wow, they sure made us wait. About darn time, HP.
Sean
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I called HP requesting information about a retailer selling them as I am ready to buy, no response.
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Felix- please check your PM.
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Thanks for contacting me, now thats customer service
I answered your message and called and left my contact info, regarding comparisons between the Z3200 and the new Z printers
Leo
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300ml carts? No larger? No, thank you.
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Leo- we are getting the 44" version with the horizontal and vertical cutters as our demo once they become available. Samples will be available!
We requested the specs for each model and will update you as soon as we receive it.
Found out that the printers will use 300ml ink (only size, but will confirm). More info to come though!
IT Supplies
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300ml carts? No larger? No, thank you.
Ink usage matters as well.
300mL is still much larger than the Z3200 ink carts, and those ones last forever. Existing HP printers are positively miserly with regards to ink use. Epson, in contrast, wastes ink (often directly into the waste tank) like they were spending someone else's money.
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when are the models with the gloss channel shipping?
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when are the models with the gloss channel shipping?
+1, and what's up with the GO being optional, anyway? Is there some other use for a spare channel that HP envisions for endusers who don't need a gloss optimizer channel, or does HP actually fit the printer with some other parts needed to invoke the GO option?
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300ml carts? No larger? No, thank you.
Too early to tell whether that will be the only option. That said on my Z3200 limited to 120ML carts I use the 300ML 772 carts of the larger machines, just replace the chip from a smaller cart. On the fast used inks it might as well work for the Vivid carts from the bigger machines. Depends on the available hues that are compatible + the cart slot configuration.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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The cost of the optional gloss channel is just under $300, not sure of the logic in not having in all printers
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The cost of the optional gloss channel is just under $300, not sure of the logic in not having in all printers
It probably is ink I use the least, mainly matte prints I do. The Vivid inks by themselves should deliver a better gloss than the Vivera inks. So if gloss is not the first priority ........
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Here are the dimensions and weight (printer itself and shipment):
MODEL # NAME package dim package lb shipping dim shipping weight
W3Z71A#B1K Z9 24" 50.9 x 27.4 x 39.3 in 159 56.7 x 30.2 x 28.3 in 225
W3Z72A#B1K Z9 44" 50.9 x 27.4 x 39.3 in 159 56.7 x 30.2 x 28.3 in 225
X9D24A#B1K Z9dr 44" 50.9 x 27.4 x 39.3 in 159 56.7 x 30.2 x 28.3 in 225
2QX51A#B1K HD Pro MFP 77.8 x 301.6 x 49.6 in 470
2QU12A#B1K Z6810 42" 77.5 x 27.2 x 53.9 in 271 89.8 x 28.9 x 47.2 in 390.2
2QU13A#B1K Z6610 60" 35.7 x 27.2 x 53.9 in 419 105.6 x 29.5 x 47.2 in 485
2QU14A#B1K Z6810 60" 77.5 x 27.2 x 53.9 in 271 89.8 x 28.9 x 47.2 in 390.2
As far as quality; should be the same as the Z3200 (96% Pantone Coverage). The printhead was in development for 10 years at HP and the warranty on it is 20% than the one on the Z3200 so should see the same, if not greater longevity. Still an onboard Spectrophotometer. The ink set is based on the HP Vivid Photo ink which is in the Z3200, so should perform about the same otherwise.
Quality info is based on the details we checked with our HP rep and from our manager attending the HP convention a few weeks ago regarding new models and any updates coming soon.
Hope this info helps!
IT Supplies
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The ink set is based on the HP Vivid Photo ink which is in the Z3200, so should perform about the same otherwise.
Quality info is based on the details we checked with our HP rep and from our manager attending the HP convention a few weeks ago regarding new models and any updates coming soon.
Hope this info helps!
IT Supplies
Thank you for the information on sizes of the printers and the head reliability.
The HP Designjets Z3200/Z3100 use Vivera pigment inks since 2006. The Vivid pigment inks were introduced in 2010 with the Designjet Z6200. There is a modification in the Vivid inks compared to the Vivera that improves the gloss and the scratch resistance. The Z6200 had Chromatic Red, Photo Black, Matte Black, Light Grey, C,LC,M,LM, Y, inks aboard. New Vivid inks made for the Z9+ are Chromatic Blue, Chromatic Green and the not yet available GO gloss optimizer. The Z9+ does not use both Magenta, Cyan inks but just one of each and we do not know in what strength actually.
The GO I hope will create a better scratch resistance too, maybe even have properties comparable with a protection varnish. The last is my speculation but any engineer would try to achieve that. With the HP Latex inks in mind it should not be impossible either. Maybe that optional GO channel uses the technology to create that, preheating the ink somewhat before it goes into the head to create the right rheology.
Sure I added some speculation too here but the available facts on the inks are better presented than your information does. And any modification in ink, paper, printer technology alters longevity numbers. For better or worse, we both do not know to what degree. However I share your confidence in HP technology so I sure am not pessimistic that it will all be alright. Even if fade resistance is compromised a bit in favor of scratch resistance I would find that a sensible step in the development of inks for this market.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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So has anyone seen one of these printers in action yet?
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I notice in itsupplies info above that the 24 inch and 44 inch machines are exactly the same weight and dimensions.
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Good catch on the 2 sizes being the same. I'll verify this since we just received the info from our HP rep directly (copy and paste basically).
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Just got the three free HP sample prints today and the image quality is very disappointing. The image on the glossy paper looks like it was taken with a poor quality 3mp cellphone, the one on the luster paper looks flat and lifeless with no good dmax anywhere. Only the one printed on the matte paper looked halfway decent, but even then the colors looked "off." Whoever made these samples should be fired, or at least educated in what a good print is supposed to look like. If this is the best HP has to offer then I don't want one no matter how archival the ink is.
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I got my three samples yesterday. Same paper as yours. I agree image quaility is terrible (not sure who is providing images for them) and the print quality is not great, the paper quality is also very poor.
I would not judge this printer based on their samples. Getting one of my Phase One images printed on Hahnemuhle paper is something I will try when I get a chance.
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I got my three samples yesterday. Same paper as yours. I agree image quaility is terrible (not sure who is providing images for them) and the print quality is not great, the paper quality is also very poor.
That is sad to hear. I hope to hear some better first hand experiences of people using the printer with quality images and paper.
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My samples arrived today, and I too am underwhelmed. I assume that these were produced without the currently shipping gloss enhancer, but I see both bronzing and gloss differential on the cheap HP papers they were printed on. In typical HP fashion, I think the left hand (marketing) is not supporting the right hand (design and manufacturing) well. They can muster one or the other but not both.
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Just got the three free HP sample prints today and the image quality is very disappointing.
I thought the image samples from which to choose the Z9 print samples were rather odd choices to begin with. And the media choices also fell short. Hard to show off "fine art" digital print quality when one uses obviously commercial advertising imagery and commercial poster print media to start with, so I didn't even bother requesting a sample. Seems like HP marketing made a number of unwise choices all around :( Hopefully, HP engineers did a much better job with the new Z9, and the image quality aspects will become clearer when the new printers get in capable printmaking hands.
regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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The support page for Z9+ has been updated with drivers, manuals etc:
https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-designjet-z9-postscript-printer-series/21158678 (https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-designjet-z9-postscript-printer-series/21158678)
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I thought the image samples from which to choose the Z9 print samples were rather odd choices to begin with. And the media choices also fell short. Hard to show off "fine art" digital print quality when one uses obviously commercial advertising imagery and commercial poster print media to start with, so I didn't even bother requesting a sample. Seems like HP marketing made a number of unwise choices all around :( Hopefully, HP engineers did a much better job with the new Z9, and the image quality aspects will become clearer when the new printers get in capable printmaking hands.
I ordered 3 samples - multicolored face, B+W and interior with pastel colors. What I got was building at night, woman in redish dress and woman with turquoise lipstick. Certainly not a great marketing example :(
Not that I know what red the dress was, but I certainly hope that wasn't the best red it can render. It reminded me of the orange/red that the Epson 7600 series provided.
Jim
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Since I am interested in this printer I tried to see if there are color gamut differences compared to Z3200. I extracted from the installer the Z9 icc paper profiles. I didn't succeeded to do the same for the Z3200 so I have nothing to compare them to. Anyone interested to help? I don't know if it is appropriate to post the icc profiles here.
For example the HP-Photo_Baryte_Paper icc profile for the Z9+ reports a gamut volume of 840K.
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Looks like someone has stock on the printer if anyone is interested.
https://www.itsupplies.com/HP-Designjet-Z9-Plus-44-Inch-Printer-p/w3272a.htm (https://www.itsupplies.com/HP-Designjet-Z9-Plus-44-Inch-Printer-p/w3272a.htm)
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They seem to be in stock elsewhere, as well. What seems odd to me, though, is that six weeks after it was unveiled to the public, there is still no third party review of the printer, at least that I've come across. IIRC, there were quite a few influencers and reviewers that were provided early access to generate a buzz when the Z3100 was introduced. Since it is HP we are discussing, I'm reluctant to read too much into it, but it certainly seems odd that we still have nothing but marketing to go on at this point.
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"HP Printers - Dynamic Security Enabled Printers" There's a bit of text about non OEM carts now on their site. Is it just a warning or have they done something to stop re-fillers?
It's interesting that HP no longer use light cyan and light magenta in these new printers.
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They seem to be in stock elsewhere, as well. What seems odd to me, though, is that six weeks after it was unveiled to the public, there is still no third party review of the printer, at least that I've come across. IIRC, there were quite a few influencers and reviewers that were provided early access to generate a buzz when the Z3100 was introduced. Since it is HP we are discussing, I'm reluctant to read too much into it, but it certainly seems odd that we still have nothing but marketing to go on at this point.
Are there any reviews in the works?
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I don’t think anyone is even reviewing large format printers decently anymore.
The Epson P 10k/ 20k have been out over a year now and have the first true quad monochrome inkset on board within a full color inkset and Epson has done nothing to promote it other than saying it helps provide smoother color output at high speeds. Have they shown us how their new improved ABW or rip software with those inks allow for outstanding smoother monochrome? No. But I bet they do. The bw sample I got from Epson was a joke. It was printed on gray metallic rc paper. What a way to show what your extra light gray will do. Pathetic sales teams at all of these companies, and that includes Canon.
As to the new HP Z, I can certainly see how improved dot placement and resulting dither can allow the removal of light cyan and light magenta, but the removal of the light gray? Now that is just strange. They should have added an even lighter gray to what the already had, they had plenty of slots to do something great with that great inkset. ( if fine Photography is their market, which it probably isn’t ) . And please don’t tell me that people don’t care about the best bw printmaking because that just isn’t true.
John
They seem to be in stock elsewhere, as well. What seems odd to me, though, is that six weeks after it was unveiled to the public, there is still no third party review of the printer, at least that I've come across. IIRC, there were quite a few influencers and reviewers that were provided early access to generate a buzz when the Z3100 was introduced. Since it is HP we are discussing, I'm reluctant to read too much into it, but it certainly seems odd that we still have nothing but marketing to go on at this point.
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I don’t think anyone is even reviewing large format printers decently anymore.
The Epson P 10k/ 20k have been out over a year now and have the first true quad monochrome inkset on board within a full color inkset and Epson has done nothing to promote it other than saying it helps provide smoother color output at high speeds.
Over 2 years, actually - the first P10k sale-to-customer units (as opposed to trade show or demo units) shipped from the factory in April 2016 and were installed and running at customer sites by July.
Other than videos from trade shows, the only non-Epson videos I've seen are various "look at this wonderful new printer we got - watch us take it out of the box" and various edits of the Epson videos by distributors. And the samples (as you and others have mentioned) don't show off the capabilities of the unit - I've discarded better output that the samples I saw. I've had to rely on comments (like the ones in this forum) from early adopters, and waited nearly 2 years to order one, so that the bugs were hopefully all worked out. With a little more effort from the manufacturers, they might sell more printers, sooner, to people like me.
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Two years. Wow, what horrible promotion on what seems like a killer printer, now that they fixed some of the firmware issues that were doing strange things like spraying ink inside the printer for no reason.
I can only imagine what the monochrome capabilities would be like if they would work with someone like Roy Harrington of QTR to write the software for it. They would only sell more ink and printers. Roy’s curves for the little P800 are outstanding on the gloss fiber media like Platine, totally clean neutral with No color crossover anywhere in the ramp. And that is with one less light gray than the 10k has!
It’s kinda sad to see HP go the route of speed over subtlety, but I guess their mass market just ain’t subtle. They will never beat the Z3200 bw by taking dilutions away. It will be interesting to see their color results though in regard to dither and resolution with this new dot placement set up they are talking about. Could be some innovation in that.
John
quote author=Terry_Kennedy link=topic=124790.msg1052703#msg1052703 date=1530308601]
Over 2 years, actually - the first P10k sale-to-customer units (as opposed to trade show or demo units) shipped from the factory in April 2016 and were installed and running at customer sites by July.
Other than videos from trade shows, the only non-Epson videos I've seen are various "look at this wonderful new printer we got - watch us take it out of the box" and various edits of the Epson videos by distributors. And the samples (as you and others have mentioned) don't show off the capabilities of the unit - I've discarded better output that the samples I saw. I've had to rely on comments (like the ones in this forum) from early adopters, and waited nearly 2 years to order one, so that the bugs were hopefully all worked out. With a little more effort from the manufacturers, they might sell more printers, sooner, to people like me.
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I've always been curious how Epson, Canon, and HP or for that matter media manufacturers like Hahnemuhle, Canson, etc., identify their "industry influencers" and take into account said expert opinion as they go about designing next generation printers, ink sets, and/or media.
With respect to ink and media longevity objectives, it has only been in the current calendar year 2018 that any major printer or media manufacturer has ever bothered to contact Aardenburg Imaging & Archives. I totally get it that I haven't gone out of my way to cultivate those relationships, and sure, I also totally get who normally gets those calls, but seriously? Why wouldn't any manufacturer cast a slightly wider net to get some more nuanced opinions about what the next generation printers, inks, and media should aspire to give to one's most demanding customers? LULA's Printers, Paper, and Inks forum and the regular cast of informed endusers who regularly participate here is a great resource for them. I hope the vendors lurk here. I know some do.
all the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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The only printer reps I’ve ever talked to at a trade show that cared about art printer’s opinions were the Barcelona guys from HP. They were great and took notes from our informal discussions and asked lots of questions. The Epson people were always kissing up to ad photographers and the Canon people just seemed confused. HP was the only company that I saw sending out their smart people, but that was 10 years ago, who knows where they are now. I know one thing, all of the sales people I’ve met were not worthy of representing their engineers. In the case of the HP guys, we were talking to the engineers, the guys who designed the system.
quote author=MHMG link=topic=124790.msg1052778#msg1052778 date=1530327255]
I've always been curious how Epson, Canon, and HP or for that matter media manufacturers like Hahnemuhle, Canson, etc., identify their "industry influencers" and take into account said expert opinion as they go about designing next generation printers, ink sets, and/or media.
With respect to ink and media longevity objectives, it has only been in the current calendar year 2018 that any major printer or media manufacturer has ever bothered to contact Aardenburg Imaging & Archives. I totally get it that I haven't gone out of my way to cultivate those relationships, and sure, I also totally get who normally gets those calls, but seriously? Why wouldn't any manufacturer cast a slightly wider net to get some more nuanced opinions about what the next generation printers, inks, and media should aspire to give to one's most demanding customers? LULA's Printers, Paper, and Inks forum and the regular cast of informed endusers who regularly participate here is a great resource for them. I hope the vendors lurk here. I know some do.
all the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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The only printer reps I’ve ever talked to at a trade show that cared about art printer’s opinions were the Barcelona guys from HP. They were great and took notes from our informal discussions and asked lots of questions. The Epson people were always kissing up to ad photographers and the Canon people just seemed confused. HP was the only company that I saw sending out their smart people, but that was 10 years ago, who knows where they are now. I know one thing, all of the sales people I’ve met were not worthy of representing their engineers. In the case of the HP guys, we were talking to the engineers, the guys who designed the system.
The isolation of engineering from marketing (and possibly more importantly, customer support) is a big problem across many industries. I've been on both sides of the problem - being an engineer and making lunchroom complaints to other engineers that we're being used as a glorified text-to-speech service, simply reading the manual to the customer because they couldn't be bothered to do that themselves. On the customer side I often seem to get someone from support who completely misunderstood the problem (which, these days, often seems to have an added language barrier). One partial solution I've implemented (on the support side) and suggested (from the customer side) is flagging accounts with a "customer actually has a clue what they're talking about" flag, and if the front-line support people see that and can't resolve the issue to the customer's satisfaction in 1 or 2 emails, the issue escalates directly to engineering. Some companies add a second flag, which I'll call "customer is clueless, but pays us enough money for support that we don't care". ::)
At the moment, there doesn't seem to be any way to even "throw a note over the wall" directly to Epson engineering - everything goes thrrough customer service, who don't seem to be able to do anything other than dispatch a repair if the unit is broken (to their credit, that does seem to work well, at least in major markets like NYC) or provide a possibly-relevant response to a question. As an example of a feature I'd like to request, the P10K/P20K have a very nice feature where they remember the media type last used for each of the 3 feed methods - roll, cut sheet, or flat stock. It asks if you want to use that same media type (press OK) or specify a different media type. That's great. However, the "Load paper" button calls up a screen where you get to choose one of those 3 feed methods. But it doesn't remember which one was last used and always defaults to roll, so if I'm printing a bunch of prints on flat stock, every paper load involves 2 presses of the down button and then OK, instead of being able to just press OK if I want to feed "more of the same" into the printer.
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Are these printers for real? ;)
Not sure how a company like HP can mess up a product launch this badly if they are targeting the art market...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Given the bizarre rollout, with a minimum of promotion and no reviews to be had months after they were announced, and over a month since they were available through major vendors . . . what is the message HP is sending? I guess the best case scenario is that they are ambivalent about the market. Since I'm hoping the printer is a success in the field, I'm trying not to think about the other explanations for the stealth launch.
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Has anyone purchased this printer?Any reviews? Longevity ratings? Gamut plots? Anything about this printer besides the marketing from HP?
The printer is now available in Canada.
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(http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/crickets-gif-with-sound-9.gif)
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IMHO all they needed to do was double the speed of the Z3200 and put in some module for feeding small sheets ( larger sheets feed just fine ) and they would still have the best fine art printer ever made. It just doesn’t seem that complicated. It seems to me that reducing the number of inks ( especially the gray! ) was done more for their benefit than ours.
If this new design was as revolutionary as they say ( I remain extremely doubtful ) then you would think someone would be putting together exhibitions to promote it. That’s what they used to do.
Until its proven otherwise I’ll consider it a really nice and fast poster printer for designers. I don’t think you can beat Epson and Canon with that for photography. But, we’ll see. Maybe it’s just a sales dept screw up.
(http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/crickets-gif-with-sound-9.gif)
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Vertical trimmer looks pretty interesting! Although from the few videos I've seen it seems to only make one vertical cut. I often nest multiple prints so it seems like it would only cut the largest one vertically if I'm looking at it correctly. Still interesting though, would save some time from hand cutting each and every print. Just when I was thinking I made move to Epson at some point, these might keep me with HP. Looking forward to more info and reviews.
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Well I just hope after 12 years they’ve gotten their freaking margins equal, otherwise you are going to be vertical trimming unequal borders.
quote author=mfrohman link=topic=124790.msg1060810#msg1060810 date=1533795077]
Vertical trimmer looks pretty interesting! Although from the few videos I've seen it seems to only make one vertical cut. I often nest multiple prints so it seems like it would only cut the largest one vertically if I'm looking at it correctly. Still interesting though, would save some time from hand cutting each and every print. Just when I was thinking I made move to Epson at some point, these might keep me with HP. Looking forward to more info and reviews.
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Vertical trimmer video
http://hp.brightcovegallery.com/playlist/detail/videos/latest-videos/video/5785061429001/hp-designjet-z6-z9-technology-videos_v-trimmer?autoStart=true (http://hp.brightcovegallery.com/playlist/detail/videos/latest-videos/video/5785061429001/hp-designjet-z6-z9-technology-videos_v-trimmer?autoStart=true)
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Vertical trimmer video
http://hp.brightcovegallery.com/playlist/detail/videos/latest-videos/video/5785061429001/hp-designjet-z6-z9-technology-videos_v-trimmer?autoStart=true (http://hp.brightcovegallery.com/playlist/detail/videos/latest-videos/video/5785061429001/hp-designjet-z6-z9-technology-videos_v-trimmer?autoStart=true)
Thanks for posting. I didn't realize there was an edge trimmer on both sides.
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Vertical edge trimming. Whoop-de-doo. Who here is making posters out of their prints?
I suppose it can be a good thing for some doing commercial work, but for the niche studio photographer, is this all that much of a technical breakthrough that they are promoting it as?
Ultimately, until they actually finish the technology and actually start shipping the printer to customers we still don't know anything.
I'm not as interested in trimming prints vertically (unless as John Dean said "maybe it's a way to finally get the print centered") as much as in knowing the dual droplet Vivid inks surpass Vivera and pass the Aardenburg I* test protocols. Not only pass, but better Vivera on specific media.
Why hasn't HP been in touch with Aardenburg to confirm longevity claims or to at least establish a benchmark?
Don't get me wrong. After what HP accomplished with Vivera, I wouldn't put it past them to knock another home run out of the park with the Z9, but come on let's see it!
Best,
Mark
PS - HP - we're not making posters - you have other printers for that. Don't forget the niche market that we are: >>PHOTOGRAPHERS<<
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The edge trimming is also nice if you're printing wall murals that have to overlap. But whether that feature alone is worth an extra 2K is debatable. What I remember from earlier review comparisons between the 3200, 8300 and 9900 is that HP lacked the gamut and smooth tonal transitions of the other two. Hopefully that's been addressed by the new head design.
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I agree. i have no interest in the vertical edge trimmer. Interesting but not needed.
I did speak to HP last Thursday. The support person could not answer my questions. She said she would have the level 3 tech call me back. As well, they will find out if there isn’t a printer in a location close to my me, so I can do testing. She mentioned they had a printer in Ottawa. I am shooting out east this fall, if I get a chance I might stop in and see family in Ottawa, and test the printer.
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Same question I asked 6 weeks ago... are these printers for real? ;)
Any first hand experience with them?
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard email me I can fill you in on a few details. I have been in talks with HP.
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Bernard email me I can fill you in on a few details. I have been in talks with HP.
Steven,
If you feel the info you got from HP can be shared freely, I would really appreciate if you did so here on LuLa as well.
TIA.
cheers,
Remko
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Has anyone seen or does anyone own this printer?
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As best I can tell, it is a rumor in the guise of an in stock, shipping printer. I can't think of another major piece of technology that I've had an interest in that had zero legitimate reviews, from journalists or consumers, this many months after introduction. I'm reluctant to read too much into it, but the fact that really unimpressive print samples were sent out only compounds the puzzlement. What has become of the Z9s that have been sold or otherwise distributed?
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I am not sure if any of this interests the group. These are the questions I had with regard to the Z9+. I can't see that any of my comments would get me in trouble with HP.
Gamut Plot - HP gave me a gamut photo of the Z9+ vs the Z3200. I was told I could not release it. So I will not discuss it in public. I have sent HP a roll of 24" Hahnemuhle photo rag baryta, which is the paper I use. I asked HP to create a ICC profile for my paper with the large patch set as was done in the past with the Z3200. I am not sure how large a patch set they will use, I asked they use the 1728 patch set. I also gave HP 4 images to print. A cross section of my images, slices of images from B&W, colour images, images from the Phase One XF IQ3 100 and some of my friends images (She is a scanographer). Once I have the ICC profile, I will compare it to the profile I have for my current printer the Canon IPF8400.
Ink Longevity - I was told some numbers would be released soon.
Clogging - I am told the heads are locked away in a air tight area when the printer is not in use.
The printer is 16bit
The 44" has the colorimeter the 24" doesn't.
60" version - I asked if one would be available and was told they did not know and would not know until its announced.
Speed - I have asked for the time it takes to print a 24" x 72" from the moment I click print on the computer (since this is the most common size print I do) using the highest setting with printing in one direction. I am waiting for their test results.
Paper Handling - I asked for a picture of the rollers or star wheels assembly to see what they are using. I am concerned with handling of the paper surface. I had a Z3100 with the star wheels. the star wheels tended to leave faint marks on the baryta paper. HP flew a tech from Boise to my studio on Salt Spring Island and retro fit my printer with a device which lifted the star wheels assembly. I was the first client to have the fix, they than applied the same fix to other machines.
GE - I asked for info on the GE and when was it applied. I was told the GE is applied to all areas where values are less than 255. If you have values of 255 for specular highlights the GE will not be applied. This was similar with the Z3100. I thought it would be better to just apply the GE to the print image area.
I am not a fan of rear feed loading printers, its what it is and I will get used to it again if I decide to dump the 8400.
I did mention to HP about getting a proper test of the printer done By Kevin Raber, or Northlight images. I gave them Kevin's contact email address. As well, I mentioned the poor test prints which were provided to me. I mentioned they might want to use better imagery, and better paper samples. We will see how my images from the Phase One XF IQ3 100 look on the Hahnemuhle paper.
I am off for a shoot on Friday for three weeks in the aspen forests. I should have my test prints and ICC profile when I get back.
I hope this helps. Does any one have any questions you want answered, does my list hit the major items?
Steven
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That's a very exhaustive list, Steven. I'm rather surprised that HP was as compliant as they were, including making profiles for you. I guess they recognize you as an influencer, and it is a good thing if they are willing to earn your business by someone in sales/support trying to demonstrate its worth to you (and us).
My primary concerns are over paper transport and color gamut. I'm curious what HP has learned about efficiency in the years since the Z3200 was designed. I think being kinder to delicate surfaces and less time consuming with paper changes would be on my short list.
On the ink side, I'd like to know how much difference the smaller droplet size/new dithering/fewer colors approach makes with gamut, and would be happy to just maintain the status quo for longevity. Have they upped their game with the profiling software, or kept it dumbed down (I miss APS and larger profiles being built in).
The GE situation sounds like they have made EconoMode the only choice. I too would prefer to be able to apply it over the full surface without a workaround. Let's hope that is sorted out with a firmware update.
I'm curious what the implementation is that enables GE to be an upgrade, too. I wonder if it is just shipped with an empty/dummy printhead and is software enabled?
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Glyph thank you for your feedback. I am pleased I have hit most of your needs with my questions. HP did not want me to share the plot between the Z9 and the Z3200. I was told the two droplet method allowed them to get rid of the light inks. I am a bit concerned that this is true. That is what I was interested in the gamut plots between the Z3200 and the Z9, and the Z9 and the IPF 8400. The Z3200 seemed to not have as much gamut compared to the latest Epson and Canon offerings. Although the Z3200 is long in the tooth for age. I just can't tell by the plot they sent me how close the Z9 would be to the IPF8400. Of course it only matters for the colours that you print. For me that would be reds and yellows.
I want to get all my questions answered before making my decision. I will keep you posted.
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... Ink Longevity - I was told some numbers would be released soon.
... The 44" has the colorimeter the 24" doesn't.
... GE - I asked for info on the GE and when was it applied. I was told the GE is applied to all areas where values are less than 255. If you have values of 255 for specular highlights the GE will not be applied. This was similar with the Z3100. I thought it would be better to just apply the GE to the print image area...
Steven
1) If HP keeps depending on those legacy longevity tests that follow a simple C,M,Y and neutral gray patch densitometric test protocol (two density levels only per color) which doesn't include skin tone, red, green, or blue color patches, there won't be enough accuracy in the tests to ascertain much about the the newer "Vivid Photo" pigment set used by the Z9+ compared to the older Z3200 Vivera pigmented set.
2) It makes no sense that the 24 inch doesn't have the spectrophotometer just like the 44 inch model. HP could have positioned it to be an optional feature but then why not engineer it to be available on both size units. How hard would that be? Moreover, the Z3100/Z3200 series have always calibrated themselves with the on board spectro, so HP would have had to approach calibration very differently but consistently for both sizes if not relying on the spectro to do it. The sales brochure on the HP website clearly shows both 24 and 44 inch printers and mentions the on board spectrophotometer in a footnote, but it says nothing about it only being embedded in the larger model. That oversight would be the basis of huge customer confusion, indeed anger given that it's not easy to send one of these printers back after they've been uncrated only to find out the built in profiling capability isn't there on the smaller units.
I spoke at length with an HP rep and another rep at IT Supplies. The HP rep claimed both 24 and 44 inch units are in stock with free shipping in the continental USA direct from HP, and the IT Supplies sales person also claimed to have stock. IT Supplies has never pulled a bait and switch on me, so I have to take both guys at their word. Either model appears to be ready for purchase, just not one that has the GO option available yet, and that was why I am holding off on my purchasing decision. I want to make sure if I buy one without the GO, that it truly can be upgraded to GO in the near future, but frankly neither rep knew how that upgrade would actually get accomplished although they speculated it would be a kit with the GO ink and software to make a firmware upgrade on the printer.
3) The Gloss optimizer info you received also sounds bizarre. Again, I don't think HP tech support truly know what's going on there, only saying it will be added to the printer in the later part of the year. That's fine, but if HP has stripped the machine of the ability to have a " GO overall" choice, it would be foolish. Forcing one to print some dots into image pure white areas including margins to get full GO coverage is dumb, and gloss differential reduction would be far more limited than what currently exists on the Z3200. One would be better off resorting to a post treatment spray to settle unwanted gloss differential, at which point the GO feature is irrelevant.
My guess is that for whatever reasons, HP management has just dropped the ball on marketing this new machine, or there's a supply chain issue still needing to be resolved such that the Z9 is only available in very limited quantities at the present time, hence they are not promoting it full throttle yet.
regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Mark
Maybe the 24" has the spectrometer. I was told it didn't. I only want the 44" so I didn't pursue it. I would prefer a 60", since I will be getting the phase One IQ4 150 back. The bigger print option is now a reality for me.
I was told the Gloss Enhancer was a kit and would cost $300. My guess he was quoting Cdn dollars. Again, I am just giving you the info I was told regarding the GE and where it applies regarding the print area. If I remember correctly the Z3100 had a similar issue. you could specify the entire print area, but if would skip over the values at 255. I am not sure I need GE since I do a spray process with my prints. The prints they will be doing for me will not have the Gloss enhancer applied. It seems stupid that they would not ship the printers with the GE included.
I told them they need to get someone to test the printer and spend some time with it to write a report. they offered to send me a demo unit for a couple of weeks. I just don't have the time to put into it. Already, I have spent a ton of time trying to get my questions answered.
I also asked why they made the printer if they don't plan on promoting it.
Steven
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I should have my test prints back when I return from my aspen forest shoot in three weeks. if it is interesting I could try and share them with the group. There are four prints 20" x 24" a set from the IPF8400 and a set from the Z9+. I will give you my feedback.
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I told them they need to get someone to test the printer and spend some time with it to write a report. they offered to send me a demo unit for a couple of weeks. I just don't have the time to put into it. Already, I have spent a ton of time trying to get my questions answered.
I also asked why they made the printer if they don't plan on promoting it.
Steven
I see the Z9+ as my logical upgrade path from my currently excellent HPZ3200+, but only if initial image quality and print longevity aren't inferior. I hope (and honestly expect) that HP has done its due diligence and produced a new model where image quality and print permanence are equal or superior to the older Z's). However, as many of us truly interested in the new Z9+ are now finding out, except for print speed there's tons of confusion even on HP's own staff about how this printer compares to the Z3200, e.g., does it have the same spectrophotometer capability baked into the HP color utility, does the single version 24 inch model have a spectrophotometer, is the dual roll and vertical cutter (neither of which I require for my low volume printmaking) available in the 24 inch model or not, is B&W tone and neutrality smoothness as good with one less photo gray, etc. etc?).
Getting a loaner for a few weeks simply wouldn't do justice to any review because there are many notable changes, and a really thorough review would require a longer period of access to the older Z3200 as well as the new Z9+ model so that more careful image quality comparisons can be made. I do plan on purchasing a new Z9+ so that I will have both Z3200 and Z9+ in house, and I do expect to study them very carefully including paired-comparison light fade tests with both the older and newer ink sets on various media. All it takes is time and money, but I think the new Z9+ represents a unique situation where such comparative studies with respect to the older Z3200 should be done because the older Z3200 is so darn amazing to begin with :)
all the best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Paper Handling - I asked for a picture of the rollers or star wheels assembly to see what they are using. I am concerned with handling of the paper surface. I had a Z3100 with the star wheels. the star wheels tended to leave faint marks on the baryta paper. HP flew a tech from Boise to my studio on Salt Spring Island and retro fit my printer with a device which lifted the star wheels assembly. I was the first client to have the fix, they than applied the same fix to other machines.
GE - I asked for info on the GE and when was it applied. I was told the GE is applied to all areas where values are less than 255. If you have values of 255 for specular highlights the GE will not be applied. This was similar with the Z3100. I thought it would be better to just apply the GE to the print image area.
I am not a fan of rear feed loading printers, its what it is and I will get used to it again if I decide to dump the 8400.
I did mention to HP about getting a proper test of the printer done By Kevin Raber, or Northlight images. I gave them Kevin's contact email address. As well, I mentioned the poor test prints which were provided to me. I mentioned they might want to use better imagery, and better paper samples. We will see how my images from the Phase One XF IQ3 100 look on the Hahnemuhle paper.
I hope this helps. Does any one have any questions you want answered, does my list hit the major items?
Steven
Kevin Raber is the publisher/ceo on the LuLa staff. Keith Cooper is the man of Northlight images.
The original starwheel assembly did not function well on the Z3100, like the dark pressure rolls on paper transport that were not soft enough. The replacements (starwheel's bar raiser parts, tan colored pressure wheels) I got were alright for that model and I installed them myself. With the Z3200 there was no similar issue, it had the revised parts already installed so I doubt we will see this issue reappear in the Z9+.
There is a simple fix to get GE on all image elements, diminish the RGB 255,255,255 value to 254, 254, 255 with an action in Photoshop etc. In Qimage Ultimate a custom printer filter with only the R brought to 254 is sufficient, this will work on the fly in printing so does not affect the stored image data at all. As Qimage Ultimate can add borders separately in the printing phase no GE is appied on them either. With PS etc, borders have to be added after the action as described is applied.
Edit on all beneath;
Both the Z3100 and Z3200 had two choices to apply GE, image only (Economy) and overall. The above 255 limitation only applies to the Economy mode. I can not imagine that the Z9+ does not have both choices.
On the GE optional part; as I understand from the documentation there is one universal head that can be put in any of the head slots and will print whatever color inks available on that slot. Two ink channels per head. There are 9 tinted inks so one channel remains unused when the 5 heads are inserted. That will be the channel used when the optional GE part is purchased. I can imagine the kit has a GE primer cart to fill the tube or at least to fill the head half not used. I doubt the kit contains an extra tube but might have a software key acting on the cart chip etc. My hopes are still for a new GE fluid with improved scratch resistance possibly requiring some additional heating of the fluid near the head. Why otherwise this postponing when a normal Z3200 GE channel could be used.
My best guess is that the heads have no fluid in them as it must be difficult to charge them with ink without diluting the ink color with fluid already there. My best guess is the head is packaged with a more or less inert gas like nitrogen in the head and package. That would make them almost timeless in storing for HP, the distributors and the consumers. Having one or two heads always in reserve is an advantage for the users, to fill a potential 10-15ML buffer in a head when it is needed is hardly an issue in my opinion.
I think all head maintenance stations in inkjet printers try to be air tight on the heads when the printer is at rest. Possibly improved here when the heads initially have to be charged with ink by the maintenance peristaltic pump + the cartridge membrane pump(s). using the thermal heaters in the heads without ink in them is bad so will not be done. The heads of the Z series so far were all filled with ink so not universal.
On the cutters the docs say that most canvasses can be cut which is new for Z's.
The Z9+ 24" comes with the Color Center software too according the docs. Which makes absence of a spectrometer unlikely.
Edit 2: Just received a magazine with a short article on the Z9+ and Z6. Whether it is all correct has to be seen. The Z6 has a densitometer instead of the spectrometer on the Z9. I guess only for calibration usable then like the Canon iPF models had. Profiling for the Z6 has to be based on OEM profiles or profiles made outside the printer. The assumption that the 24"Z9 has no spectrometer could be a mistake with the Z6 in mind.
The highest patch number on the Z9+ should be 434. Seems very low to me. If true a spin off from the Z3200 profile creation tweaking discussed here may be needed for the Z9+ too.
The vertical cutter will not split two images next to one another on the roll, it is purely a cutter for the vertical side(s). According the article is the universal head filled with a neutral fluid. I really wonder how the charging of a new head works then.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Since I am interested in this printer I tried to see if there are color gamut differences compared to Z3200. I extracted from the installer the Z9 icc paper profiles. I didn't succeeded to do the same for the Z3200 so I have nothing to compare them to. Anyone interested to help? I don't know if it is appropriate to post the icc profiles here.
For example the HP-Photo_Baryte_Paper icc profile for the Z9+ reports a gamut volume of 840K.
Interesting, the HP Baryte once introduced with the Z3100/Z3200 was discontinued fast after its introduction. The roll I had suffered of a veil on the surface after printing that reduced its gamut and Dmax compared to other Baryta papers. One could more or less polish that veil off and then apply a varnish but it just was not convenient. I wonder whether this is a reincarnation of that paper or a better clone of a third party manufacturer.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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I am not sure if any of this interests the group. These are the questions I had with regard to the Z9+. I can't see that any of my comments would get me in trouble with HP......
Thanks a lot for sharing this valuable and helpful info, Steven.
cheers,
Remko
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Has anyone, as of yet, seen this printer with their own eyes?
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Just read the Z9 specs front to back.
Seems the new vertical trimmer will only trim HP canvas and not third party canvases.
Thoughts on that? I would skip the trimmer for that reason alone.
Did I misread?
Single-roll: Roll feed, top sheet feed, rear sheet feed for rigid media, media output bin, automatic horizontal cutter; Dual-roll: Two automatic roll feeds, smart roll-switching, top sheet feed, media output bin, automatic horizontal cutter and vertical trimmer (cuts all HP Z-series printer-qualified media, including most canvas)
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Has anyone, as of yet, seen this printer with their own eyes?
Hi Kevin
Yes , we own one , we buy the 44inch Z9 single roll , replacing a Z3200.
Charles
Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk
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I was so ready to pull the string on the new Z9 until the price for the Z3200 fell below $2500.
Being able to load 2 rolls of media was the big draw but not for $3000 extra.
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I was so ready to pull the string on the new Z9 until the price for the Z3200 fell below $2500.
Being able to load 2 rolls of media was the big draw but not for $3000 extra.
Hi Dan
For us in Canada the price of the Z3200 and the Z9 single roll are the same $2000 more for the two roll Z9. The inks is cheaper for the Z9 0.53¢ cdn per ml vs 0.69¢ for the Z3200. The printer is faster, auto-nesting is a plus and front loading.
Charles
Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk
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How they can be the same price seems strange.
The price on Amazon for the 44" Z3200 was $2495
Lexjet's price for the 44" Z9 2 roll is $6895
$4400 less. That vertical trimmer runs it up but not that much.
Product(s) Price Qty. Total
Picture of HP DesignJet Z9⁺ dual roll 44in Postscript® Printer with Vertical Trimmer
HP DesignJet Z9⁺ dual roll 44in Postscript® Printer with Vertical Trimmer
by HP
SKU: X9D24A
Availability: In stock
$6,895.00 Remove $6,895.00
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Any news on this printer ?
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There is a Z6 review of limited length at https://www.fantasio.info/2018/09/hp-designjet-z6-review-from-digital.html
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Thanks !
The supposed effect of the new HP Pixel Control Pipeline looks interesting.
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Amazingly quiet on this topic and it's now the middle of January.
Did HP actually launch this?
Jim
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Amazingly quiet on this topic and it's now the middle of January.
Did HP actually launch this?
Jim
I think you can buy them, but without a professional review who would buy it (unless they just have $6K to experiment with)?
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The whole thing is bizarre. They have had 10 years to work on two issues, improve speed and refine the sheet feeding. They didn’t need a whole inkset or anything complex to do that. Canon did it with 12 inks and HP has a bigger budget to do the same thing with much better longevity and the amazing profiling to take that market.
My suspicion is they’ve pretty much dropped the goal of supporting fine photography and puts the emphasis on “ graphic design” which includes graphic photo applications of less precision. I hope I’m totally wrong, but the evidence isn’t promising.
It’s really hard to know what the hell their thinking is. Epson and Canon have killed them in the photo advertising arena for as long as I’ve used their products, about 13 years, and now their industry promotion is dead in the water for what two years now?
These Z series are amazing in so many ways. I just completely restored my Z3100 to use as a backup for my z3200. They system is modular and you just replace small components in 90% of cases. Mine was unused and unplugged for about 8 months. All I had to do was replace a few $78.00 heads and I was back in business. What I learned was the ink lines are sealed, so unlike other printers like Epson, ink won’t dry in the lines. So many good features with these units.
John
I think you can buy them, but without a professional review who would buy it (unless they just have $6K to experiment with)?
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Hi Kevin
Yes , we own one , we buy the 44inch Z9 single roll , replacing a Z3200.
Charles
Charles, as you are using the Z9 (the only one that we know of), how has your experience been? Are you happy with the output and performance of the printer?
Thanks,
Kevin
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What happened with Stevens samples? Any news, it’s been four months…
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The HP printer in Washington State that HP uses could not match the prints I made from the Canon 8400 that I use. I gave them a roll of the same paper Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta and my files from the Phase One iq3 100 camera. The prints were very disappointing. I am not sure if they had issues in creating a profile from the z9 or if they did not tweak my files to try and match my prints. I was told they did try to tweak the prints.
I was told my test prints and files would be sent further up the hierarchy at HP to see why the prints are so different. I followed up in early December, but have not got a response.
My suspicion is maybe the lab did not create the profile correctly.
I am on a shoot in Hokkaido. Just arrived after 16 hrs of travel. Kind of tired and have a busy schedule. If you want more info on my findings email me when I return on Feb 4th. I have a list of observations comparing their prints to mine.
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New info from an owner:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62217783
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I spoke with an HP Tier 3 engineer about the Z9+ utility. I was sent screen shots while we were walking through the utility over the phone.
The Utility is basically the same thing - ability to create custom profiles with the spectrophotometer (ESP), however,
NO COLOR MEASUREMENT. It's missing from the utility, (gelded) which means no ability to input reference files to make extended patch targets, or to export a tiff for later measurement. Not good.
Have have sent an email that was forwarded to Barcelona. Will see what comes of it.
Dissapointed.
-Mark
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So sad. Looks like they didn’t even appreciate the advancements in their own technology, world class bw and world class extended profile creation of the previous series.
I spoke with an HP Tier 3 engineer about the Z9+ utility. I was sent screen shots while we were walking through the utility over the phone.
The Utility is basically the same thing - ability to create custom profiles with the spectrophotometer (ESP), however,
NO COLOR MEASUREMENT. It's missing from the utility, (gelded) which means no ability to input reference files to make extended patch targets, or to export a tiff for later measurement. Not good.
Have have sent an email that was forwarded to Barcelona. Will see what comes of it.
Dissapointed.
-Mark
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Neil Snape's comments on the DP Review thread are certainly disheartening. Lots of amazing tech has come out of HP, but it seems to have all been despite their management, not because of it.
OT: I always forget just how bad the UI is on DP Review until I come across a thread I'm interested in there. Finger's crossed that LL remains a viable alternative.
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I am not sure why they didn’t update the z3200 making it faster.
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I should point out an HP win however. I have a 24 inch T120 HP printer. For around $900 or less it is a motor drive, roll equipped inkjet printer. It uses only three dye colors and a pigment black. This isn't the full story though, as the roll loading has automatic skew correction and is powered in both directions. The DPI at 1200 x 2400 is exactly the same as a Canon Pro 2000.
HP have developed a new dot placement algorithm that does away with light magenta and light Cyan, and when I produced a print on glossy paper at max detail two trained observers were unable to say which was done by the HP or the Canon 6100.
Ah, but I hear you say, "it's dye". Not any more. A supplier provides re-manufactured cartridges with pigment ink. We have been using these for months and the printer responds without protest. I didn't even notice they were pigment ink carts until after many months exposure to Australian summer sun, there was little if any fade. I thought initially that I had a new long lasting dye but a water fastness test showed it was pigment. A visit to the suppliers site confirmed this but I hadn't noticed earlier.
The poor marketing of HP products is reflected on the Australian large format printers site where they say the T120 is only a 1200 x1200 dpi machine because, it seems, nobody could be bothered digging into the driver and and enabling "max detail".
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The Canon IPF 6100 was certainly nothing to write home about. I remember us comparing the quality of that first Canon 12 ink series compared to the HP z3100 and Epson 7880 when they all came out ( what was that 13 years ago? ) and all of us decided that the dither of the Canon at that time was not ready for prime time. When they came out with the 6300 it was equal to the z3100.
As for third party pigment inks there are none with even remotely the longevity of oem, much less reliable color consentency from batch to batch, which is critical for me. But the big problem in my opinion with the new Zs was removing the light light gray. I wanted them to add one more light gray for a true quad inkset ( and could have done that by removing only the light magenta while improving their dot placement a tiny bit, but they went in the other was for super speed, which for me is going backward not competing with Epson and Canon in the high end photo realm. The T series is essentially a poster and graphics machine, nothing wrong wit that, but why are they going there with the Z series as well? What is also strange to me is HP has no professional samples to prove their image quality statements and even stranger that after a year and a half I haven’t heard of a single review high end printmaker who is using these machines regularly.
Indeed, all they needed to do was increase the speed and sheet feeding module of the Z3200 to own that market. I have a feeling a lot of those creative art conscious engineers are no longer around, like Angel who created the brilliant software for making digital negs and reading the analogue patches right in the printer. That was imagination and they never promoted it.
I should point out an HP win however. I have a 24 inch T120 HP printer. For around $900 or less it is a motor drive, roll equipped inkjet printer. It uses only three dye colors and a pigment black. This isn't the full story though, as the roll loading has automatic skew correction and is powered in both directions. The DPI at 1200 x 2400 is exactly the same as a Canon Pro 2000.
HP have developed a new dot placement algorithm that does away with light magenta and light Cyan, and when I produced a print on glossy paper at max detail two trained observers were unable to say which was done by the HP or the Canon 6100.
Ah, but I hear you say, "it's dye". Not any more. A supplier provides re-manufactured cartridges with pigment ink. We have been using these for months and the printer responds without protest. I didn't even notice they were pigment ink carts until after many months exposure to Australian summer sun, there was little if any fade. I thought initially that I had a new long lasting dye but a water fastness test showed it was pigment. A visit to the suppliers site confirmed this but I hadn't noticed earlier.
The poor marketing of HP products is reflected on the Australian large format printers site where they say the T120 is only a 1200 x1200 dpi machine because, it seems, nobody could be bothered digging into the driver and and enabling "max detail".
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... But the big problem in my opinion with the new Zs was removing the light light gray. I wanted them to add one more light gray for a true quad inkset ( and could have done that by removing only the light magenta while improving their dot placement a tiny bit, but they went in the other was for super speed, which for me is going backward not competing with Epson and Canon in the high end photo realm.
It's really hard to know what kind of B&W or color print quality the Z9+ is capable of merely by reading the specs and the gushing promotional literature on HP's new "pixel control" technology. On the face of it, I agree, removing the light channels, especially the light gray, sounds like a big step in the wrong direction for highest quality photographic tone reproduction. That said, HP scientists would have had a few variables to play with in the new printer design that might even the score or perhaps improve B&W, dare we hope, compared to the older Z3100/Z3200 series. One of those variables is, of course, the smaller drop-size nozzles in the new head design. A second variable is the pigment density levels. For example, HP scientists could have moved the Z9 gray pigment concentration levels closer to Z3200's light gray pigment concentration level such that when printing through the finer nozzle pattern, HP could recover or possibly gain on both color and B&W output "continuous tone" quality. High gray component replacement (GCR) as was done with the older Zs would still have to factor heavily into the new "pixel control" screening patterns to get wonderfully neutral gray scale ramps as would use of extended patch count profiling charts over and above the basic chart used by the "easy profiling mode' of the HP color utility menu.
All that said, we just don't know much about the highest attainable print quality from this new printer compared to other printers, especially the older Z3200, even though the Z9s have been on the market for several months now. The lack of positive commentary on the internet about Z9 print quality does seem bewildering no matter how you look at it. The few folks who claim to own one have to date revealed almost nothing about their satisfaction with the Z9 print quality and printer reliability. Colourgeek's comments over on the dpReview printers and printing forum about his new Z9 are notably subdued. Moreover, samples distributed by HP marketing seem to have disappointed discerning printmakers who've seen them, but that isn't a definitive ruling. So, the jury is still out, IMHO, but it's not looking good.
Lastly, for folks like myself who are enjoying the advanced measurement capabilities of the built-in spectrophotometer on our Z3200 printers, the fact that HP appears to have crippled the spectro capabilities on the new Z9 is a huge disappointment :( I was hoping the Z9 would be a pathway forward for me when it comes time to retire my Z3200. One can only hope that HP might decide to reinstate the advanced spectro measurement abilities in a newer version of the Z9 color utility.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Deanwork, your comments are all valid but as all I make are prints of my wife's art work the issue of color consistency (if one exists) is a little less important for me than others. As for permanency, it is unlikely that the OEM life will be matched. However, I have the lowest price 24" pigment printer, which has benefits over the dyes previously used - waterproof, way longer life than the dyes and AliExpress prices.
Inks are pressurized in the T120 but ink tubes are not used as the carts and head both travel together. Printheads, one for four inks, are less than $100. The machine is simple and robust over three years of use.
My comments are in this thread because I agree that HP Sales don't seem to know much about what they sell.
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I've had mine (44", z9+, single roll) in the Toronto area since late last fall. Sadly we've been travelling a lot and I've had precious little time to run a lot of prints. I've come from an Eps 7900 background so I am looking forward to MUCH better printer reliability as compared. I've proofed with a bunch of my remaining Epson stock I've had and generated ICC's for premium lustre, enhanced matte and cold press natural and basically I'm just finishing off some 24" rolls. Now I've ordered some additional paper and I've had to buy a full set of replacement inks since the ship-with's are running low.
So, if you are in the Toronto, or at least the Southern Ontario Canada, area and you want to converse, compare some prints and so forth I am open to the experimentation, testing and learning experience. I'd be especially interested in having you bring 'your best' and re-print to compare and learn.
I'll be in Toronto late February and then back in the Spring for the summer. Contact me privately if you want to 'play'.
My initial experience was rocky in that I did update to the latest firmware on Dec 24th and almost bricked it - in that it would no longer communicate successfully. Finally resolved that with a lot of support on Dec 26-28th with engineering releasing to me a new version of the DesignJet Utility which was impacting the new firmware. Got that resolved. I've had trouble feeding Cold Press Natural - so that's still a work in progress but some of the prints I did produce on it were great - but, of course, I didn't have much to compare to as my 7900 was not working well in 2017 and 2018. So I am interested in seeing some other comparisons.
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Jim,
Thank you for you post. It's great seeing the machine in someone's space. Please continue to post your experiences with the new printer.
Kevin
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Anyone had any further progress with this printer?
I'm still hoping that it lives up to HP's promises that it will outperform the Z3200. But I don't know if I'm just hoping against hope and should just bite the bullet and go Epson (in which case I needn't go through the hassle of printing myself, since almost every print shop uses it and I'd just need to find one using Ultrachrome HDX inks and the paper I want to print on, for greatest non-HP longevity).
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Anyone had any further progress with this printer?
I'm still hoping that it lives up to HP's promises that it will outperform the Z3200. But I don't know if I'm just hoping against hope and should just bite the bullet and go Epson (in which case I needn't go through the hassle of printing myself, since almost every print shop uses it and I'd just need to find one using Ultrachrome HDX inks and the paper I want to print on, for greatest non-HP longevity).
Yes. I'm testing and reviewing a 24" Z9+ sent from Barcelona.
A lot to be excited about!
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I am interested to learn of your conclusions. I have Had three different HP print labs including Barcelona try and match my prints from a Canon IPF 8400. None were successful. They had my prints to match.
I haven given up on the printer, and will hope Canon does a redo on their current inkset.
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I am interested to learn of your conclusions. I have Had three different HP print labs including Barcelona try and match my prints from a Canon IPF 8400. None were successful. They had my prints to match.
I haven given up on the printer, and will hope Canon does a redo on their current inkset.
HP technicians would have had to create a device link profile, or at the very least do a double conversion to try to match what you did on your IPF8400. Did you supply them with a master image file and also the ICC profile used to produce your iPF8400 print, as well as the same media your iPF8400 images were printed on? Only then might a truly accurate match be possible with any new printer versus another, but it's probably asking a lot of HP labs to go through all of this facsimile matching exercise just for the hope of selling one printer.
In any case, the more pertinent issue is whether the Z9 can produce pleasing fine art quality prints in their own right when starting from scratch with a nice original source image. Hopefully, Mark L. will be able to answer that fundamental question all in good time. ;)
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Stevenfr, how were the HP prints not matching the Canon? Gamut, colors, sharpness, shadows, bronzing, metamerism or in an overall way somehow?
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I gave HP master files. Varying images from a Phase One IQ3 100 camera and some images capturing using a Horseman film camera. Velvia 50 film. There is no issue with the source files. At the time there was nothing better than a Phase One IQ3 100 camera. The same media as what I used was used in their testing. I asked them to match my prints. Three different labs. The gamut was the issue. I supplied my profile. They created a profile using my paper. Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta. They tried changing my images to match and they couldn’t. They were surprised. Could it be a poor technician, could it be not spending enough time. Could it be because this printer has 9 inks and mine has 12. I have no idea.
I am sure the Z9+ can produce pleasing prints. From my limited experience, just not as well as my IPF8400 based on the experience I have had with three print tests. Maybe if I purchased the printer I could get a better match. I am not prepared to buy a printer on the assumption it might work for my needs. There has been no in depth review of this printer and its been almost a year. I don’t feel its a big ask to have HP do test prints with my images and paper. They even suggested it.
Hopefully Mark L, If you can find that this printer can match the gamut of my current printer than I would be thrilled. I have been patient, this testing has been going on for a few months.
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Probably the only one who can match your Canon prints on the Z9+ is you. Subtlety is subjective and only by working with the printer and inks will you be able to meet your expectations. The Z9’s ink set is definitely not an issue. I’m finding that the Z9+ is quite competent, particularly with custom profiles.
Mark
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I agree Mark. Maybe I could of done better. The issue was the differences were not small. It was very easy to tell the difference. If there were reviews on the printer I might of made a purchase. Something to reassure me that a 9 ink printer would have the same gamut as my 12 ink printer. I like the longevity, ability to make profiles, no clogging issues, and for me service, which is available from a HP dealer not far from where I live. I live on a small island. The issue was the gamut.
I really question HP and their lack of promotion for this printer.
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I agree Mark. Maybe I could of done better. The issue was the differences were not small. It was very easy to tell the difference. If there were reviews on the printer I might of made a purchase. Something to reassure me that a 9 ink printer would have the same gamut as my 12 ink printer. I like the longevity, ability to make profiles, no clogging issues, and for me service, which is available from a HP dealer not far from where I live. I live on a small island. The issue was the gamut.
I really question HP and their lack of promotion for this printer.
I can't say we know anything objective about the longevity yet. HP has a very high baseline to surpass.
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There is this
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/WIR_HP_DesignJet_Z9+_News_Release_for_SGIA_2018-10-18.pdf
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So here's the thing guys. It's not wise to speculate that the Z9+ can't or won't be as good or better than the Z3200 when in reality, the Z3200 Vivera inks (which are now over something like 15 years old) are still besting both Canon and Epson in longevity and rival them in gamut, etc., and B+W is the most neutral of all the printers on the market. My point is, back then, HP pulled a rabbit out of a hat and created the best inks that are still going strong today. There's nothing to say that they haven't done the same with the Z9+ Vivid inks applied with their new technology. Test results take time and they are forthcoming - it's a matter of being patient. They will be coming soon.
I have no doubt the the Vivid inkset printed on the best substrates will test best in class for longevity. And I can tell you they will unquestionably beat the other inks hands down and there will be evidence to back it up.
There will be differences between all the printers and inksets, some with more or less gamut than others. If you are printing highly saturated colors, only those who are masters at printing and know how to get the most out of printers will be able to closely match other inkset prints that are difficult. Anyone just calibrating the paper then printing will come up short. Just like the Z3200, understanding and unlocking the potential with extended patch target profiles is the key.
It took a long time to understand the nuances of the Z3200. The Z9+ prints incredibly well out of the box. But to ask it to match prints takes mojo, and serious soft-proofing - something not everyone doing the work has.
My review will be coming out eventually, and as I said, there's a lot to be excited about.
I'll let you know as soon as I get it finished.
Mark
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I've had my 44"-Z9+ since late December but owing to travelling and some shortcomings in my site I am only just now starting to print more heavily and experience the printer with different papers. I had a 7900, which eventually became clogged and I was unwilling to spend more money on it to try and un-clog it...so it's gone. My main reason for purchasing the Z9 was to have an enjoyable, large-format printing experience without constantly fighting clogs after returning.
I ran my first 44x48" print last week, 44" Epson Cold Press Natural (CPN), and hung it and was fairly satisfied with it.
That being said, I am at the point now where I can compare some of the gamuts from Epson's ICC profiles to the ones generated on the printer and they are different. I do have a stack of mounted 24" prints from the 7900 and I intend to re-print (some of) those files on the Z9, with only a profile change, on CPN and have a look. But, as Mark says, that's a bit academic because the Z9 is what I have now, and will live with, so the difference is what it is.
I've been printing (all) Epson CPN, enhanced matte and Lustre 260...as I finish up some stocks and today I will roll canvas on it for the first time.
My early observations about the paper handling capability of the Z9 is that the Epson was much easier to load and handle - both roll and sheet. Loading rolls and sheets on the Z9 takes longer, the spindle is very awkward and roll changes on the spindle, a "snap" on the 7900, are a chore on the Z9. I have had real trouble loading a roll of CPN that has about 50% left to go. The paper is stiff and the printer keeps rejecting the load or cancelling the print because it thinks it's tugging at the end of the roll. More investigation on this today and likely a call to tech support because this shouldn't happen and while CPN is thick - it's nowhere near the printer's limit by spec for thickness.
Anybody in the Toronto area is welcome to contact me if they want to drop by and 'play'.
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No where in that long list of tech achievements do they mention the words monochrome or black and white. The new Epsons using QTR and Canons with soon to be released TBW software will most likely put them to shame in that regard. Hp could offer an alternative inkset of Vivera grays in light dilutions that could be killer, and with a couple of cleaning cycles easily accessed, but they won’t.
John
I've had my 44"-Z9+ since late December but owing to travelling and some shortcomings in my site I am only just now starting to print more heavily and experience the printer with different papers. I had a 7900, which eventually became clogged and I was unwilling to spend more money on it to try and un-clog it...so it's gone. My main reason for purchasing the Z9 was to have an enjoyable, large-format printing experience without constantly fighting clogs after returning.
I ran my first 44x48" print last week, 44" Epson Cold Press Natural (CPN), and hung it and was fairly satisfied with it.
That being said, I am at the point now where I can compare some of the gamuts from Epson's ICC profiles to the ones generated on the printer and they are different. I do have a stack of mounted 24" prints from the 7900 and I intend to re-print (some of) those files on the Z9, with only a profile change, on CPN and have a look. But, as Mark says, that's a bit academic because the Z9 is what I have now, and will live with, so the difference is what it is.
I've been printing (all) Epson CPN, enhanced matte and Lustre 260...as I finish up some stocks and today I will roll canvas on it for the first time.
My early observations about the paper handling capability of the Z9 is that the Epson was much easier to load and handle - both roll and sheet. Loading rolls and sheets on the Z9 takes longer, the spindle is very awkward and roll changes on the spindle, a "snap" on the 7900, are a chore on the Z9. I have had real trouble loading a roll of CPN that has about 50% left to go. The paper is stiff and the printer keeps rejecting the load or cancelling the print because it thinks it's tugging at the end of the roll. More investigation on this today and likely a call to tech support because this shouldn't happen and while CPN is thick - it's nowhere near the printer's limit by spec for thickness.
Anybody in the Toronto area is welcome to contact me if they want to drop by and 'play'.
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No where in that long list of tech achievements do they mention the words monochrome or black and white. The new Epsons using QTR and Canons with soon to be released TBW software will most likely put them to shame in that regard. Hp could offer an alternative inkset of Vivera grays in light dilutions that could be killer, and with a couple of cleaning cycles easily accessed, but they won’t.
John
The Z9+ does a fabulous job printing Black and White in full color mode. No QTR or Piezography needed.
It's amazing.
Mark
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They need to be sending out these amazing print samples of neutral monochrome and warm monochrome with the reduced gray dilution output that has no color shift under various light sources , if that is the case, because it would be a real technological innovation. One that until now has been unheard of in pigment imaging. If they have dot placement tech that can do that in the high values of a bw print ( and I believe it is possible ) and print fast, it’s a game changer, maybe even revolutionary. Of course it would be nice if you could actually use their software to do what the spectro is capable of doing with that . Hopefully that will come along soon with the documentation to support it.
The Z9+ does a fabulous job printing Black and White in full color mode. No QTR or Piezography needed.
It's amazing.
Mark
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Thanks for the updates Mark and Jim - looking forward to hearing more about the Z9!
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OT: I always forget just how bad the UI is on DP Review until I come across a thread I'm interested in there. Finger's crossed that LL remains a viable alternative.
On DP Review threads, you can select Flat View on the upper right above first comment - so you can read the entire thread with one click.
Sam
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Still don't get why there is so few info about the new Z9s. Sometimes I think the print market is close to dead.
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Still don't get why there is so few info about the new Z9s. Sometimes I think the print market is close to dead.
As discussed in the unboxing video thread:
Hi Mark -
I have theories, but it’s hard to say for sure. Since this is a ground up new build for this printer HP is doing many firmware upgrades that are still addressing bugs, etc.
My main understanding is that HP is involved with major projects such as 3D printing on a major scale and they have several other printers - Dye Sub and Latex that are being developed and manufactured that may be taking precedence currently.
Frankly, the Z6 and Z9 printers have not been their priority, is my guess. They just haven’t pushed it which is perplexing. My guess is that they’ve been too busy with other things. They’re beginning to move on it however. I think of it as a “late bloomer”. It really is an amazing printer - a lot to like.
Another thing, HP printers are sold throughout the world. It’s difficult to say why it seems like it has not gone anywhere in our area. Other than what I’ve speculated above, I don’t have an answer.
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Still don't get why there is so few info about the new Z9s. Sometimes I think the print market is close to dead.
The printer market is very very reduced. The concept of the Z9+ is really cool. It is super fast, efficient, the most complete package of ways to send files, vertical trimmer option Gloss Enhancer, etc. Yet delivery is slow, and to a reduced market most will be for production studio and labs not individual image makers. That is not to say it won't be a good match to the individual photographer as I am certain it is. Perhaps their marketing is just making reasonable assumption for the quite dead independent photographers market. Epson and Canon have never let go, although like the camera market for MF or other speciality cameras one has to wonder how much room is left to make sustainable choices.
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The printer market is very very reduced. The concept of the Z9+ is really cool. It is super fast, efficient, the most complete package of ways to send files, vertical trimmer option Gloss Enhancer, etc. Yet delivery is slow, and to a reduced market most will be for production studio and labs not individual image makers. That is not to say it won't be a good match to the individual photographer as I am certain it is. Perhaps their marketing is just making reasonable assumption for the quite dead independent photographers market. Epson and Canon have never let go, although like the camera market for MF or other speciality cameras one has to wonder how much room is left to make sustainable choices.
Given that HP is concentrating on 3D printers in a big way, Latex printers in a big way, and Dye-Sub printers also in a very big way, we're lucky they have continued to "service" our market as individual photographers and printmakers. It seems that the Z9+ has been a slow rollout, but I believe HP will gain momentum with this printer series. There must be enough of a market segment and demographics for them to continue to pursue making a brand new, ground-up build which unquestionably supersedes the Z3200 series. With MF coming along, now more affordably, it could be that's where this printer will really shine.
Mark
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Any comments on
1. Noise/Fans on the Z9 vs the Z3200?
2. If it goes to sleep mode - how much power does it use?
3. Does it wake up and clean / purge printheads in "sleep/off" mode?
I have a Z3200 and I love it - apart from the power consumption when running in "sleep mode" and the fan noise. So I am considering the Z9 but only if I can share a room with it without getting annoyed at the constant fan noise. :)
/k
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Any comments on
1. Noise/Fans on the Z9 vs the Z3200?
2. If it goes to sleep mode - how much power does it use?
3. Does it wake up and clean / purge printheads in "sleep/off" mode?
I have a Z3200 and I love it - apart from the power consumption when running in "sleep mode" and the fan noise. So I am considering the Z9 but only if I can share a room with it without getting annoyed at the constant fan noise. :)
/k
Very quiet - can't hear fans running. Power consumption must be very low but I haven't measured it.
Apparently does wake up and does do a cleaning cycle but it's so quiet it's unnoticeable.
Totally different from the Z3100-Z3200's.
Mark
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Spooling speed from a MAC.....really slow to z9+ using the Raster driver.
I have been printing some larger prints on the z9+, 44" and have been experiencing really slow spooling speeds from my MacPro, via ethernet. Prints maybe 30" square take more than 15 minutes to transfer using the Raster driver. Mac OS Mojave, 10.14.6. Current HP Printer drivers.
I'm printing directly from LR Classic Desktop...although I have developed a test case with a JPG file that's 44wide by 18" tall that exhibits the same issue when printed using the Raster driver directly from Mac's Preview app.
On the Mac's Activity Monitor app, you can observe the Network "Data Sent per Second" running at less than 1MB/second...and often in the 500KB/second range ... so on large prints it's understandable this works out to 15+ minutes before the printer starts - and then printing operates at a normal speed. It's the spooling that's the issue.
I raised this as a support issue with HP this week and they are investigating it. They have certainly re-produced the issue on their Mac setup. Interestingly, they have also tested it on Win10 .... and the spooling speed from the windows computer is running at nearly 70MB/sec...which is what you would sort-of expect on a gigabit ethernet connection. Using that, 15 minutes of spooling time drops to 15-30 seconds.
This is on the raster driver...which I have been using instead of the PS driver. The PS driver is a bit faster but I have run into sone very noticeable color shifts when printing with it using ICC profiles I have generated on the Z9.....so returning to use the PS driver is not an option for me.
So, my question is if any others have you have experienced this on the Z9+ or the earlier 3200 series printer ? If you have found a network parameter that fixes it, etc ? Have you seen such a vast difference in spooling speeds between a Mac and Windows setup?
The case at HP is ongoing ... but I am hoping for some input from our community.
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Hey Jim-
I don't print out of LR, instead I softproof and print out of Photoshop and I'm not experiencing the lengthy spooling issue.
When I get a little free time I'll try printing from LR and see if I see the same problem you're experiencing.
I understand from past conversations that you prefer LR, but as a test, why not print out of PS and see if it goes faster just to see.
-Mark
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Hi Mark, thanks for that.
Between smoking a turkey and having dinner (hey it's Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend), I got some more time to work on this too. And I have some answers.
It's not a LR issue - and I was able to develop a test case using just a TIF file and Mac's Preview app to replicate it easily....so that took LR out of the issue.
I got some feedback from HP that they were able to replicate it on their Mac's - but they also found that the problem didn't show up on Windows (you remember you mentioned that your XP machine seemed to spool faster). That was a key piece of information because it indicated that it wasn't necessarily a problem with the printer's network implementation.
I kind of suspected this and worked at setting up the printer connection differently. Rather than using Apple's Bonjour, I set it up to use the printer's IP address directly (second tab in the Add a New Printer dialog box). I know my printer is on 192.168.1.199. And it uses Jet Direct.
Massive improvement, 10-15 times faster....now showing speeds occasionally peaking about 12MB/sec in the activity monitor. The practical implication is that I file I printed earlier today (48x43") took about half-an-hour to spool and tonight it's spooling in maybe a minute or less...once LR finishes rendering it.
* I didn't print all those ;)
So, it's simple to lock down the IP address in my router so the printer sticks on "199" and I can live with that for a while and I'll feed this back to HP in the morning. They may have a different recommendation for how to approach it, but I suspect that Bonjour is the issue.
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Interesting, Jim. I never use Bonjour - always specific static IP addresses.
There is also a setting to begin printing immediately so it just starts right away printing while continuing to spool. I can’t remember where that is but you may already have it set that way.
Check out settings in the embedded web server. If you go to job queue>look up, follow past the warnings, you get there and the network settings are there. Pretty sure you can do the same from the front panel of the printer.
The begin printing immediately setting should be there.
Funny how both HP and Adobe each think it’s the other’s fault, but in the end it often boils down to a network or system setting. The z9
One should be able to print equally fast with the PS and raster drivers, ultimately.
Good work sussing things out. BTW, it was a Win 8.1 Pro machine, not XP.
Best-
Mark