Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: mcbroomf on March 20, 2018, 12:34:19 pm

Title: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: mcbroomf on March 20, 2018, 12:34:19 pm
In the discussion about TB3 disk arrays Joe mentioned a 10g network setup he is eyeing
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123716.msg1033107#msg1033107
As I have just received the Akitio TB3 enclosure (the Quad X) coincident to a new PC build arriving tomorrow I poked around a little bit and found an Akitio TB3 -> 10g adapter and started wondering about moving my network to 10g (the PC does not have a 10g card but neither is my router).  I exchanged a PM with Joe and though it might be interesting see if others run 10g, or are thinking about it.

I think for the moment I am NOT planning to do this (although  I can always be persuaded to spend money on tech goodies).  The new PC is a desktop with a case and MB that will allow me slip in SATA 6 hard drives.  The OS and LR/PS cache are handled by 2 separate M.2 cards on the MB and my primary/current RAWS will be edited on 2x2TB raid 0 SATA SSDs.  All the RAWS will be duplicated to an on-board spinning HD together with all my archived RAWs and final print files and large .psb files on a separate drive with non-photo files on a 3rd.  The Akitio TB3 will be my primary backup for all 3 disks (migrating from a slow USB enclosure) and my Synology NAS will be my 2nd backup.  So as you can see my NAS is at the end of the; fastest -> fast -> slower -> slowest chain.  while it might be nice to bump it to 10g with either the TB3-10g adapter, or a new 10g PCI card + a 10g router I'm not sure I see a reason.  My desktop and all peripherals sit at my feet.  I do use a laptop but it's specifically for use in the kitchen/dining/living rooms so I run it purely through WiFi and have never hard wired it to my router.  I use it for PostP when on a trip but never at home.

So, do you run 10g?  If so how is it setup and why do you have 10g?  Do you want something faster  ;D  I imagine if NAS is your primary storage there's a good reason but I'd be interested in hearing how other folk have their networks setup (for photo or non-photo application).

PS.  I don't really know the 1st thing about networks, eg I don't know what NBase-T is ...

Cheers,
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on March 21, 2018, 10:52:22 am
Thanks for moving the thread over - I think others will get a kick out of it.

NBase-T otherwise known as 802.3bz, is the brand name way to talk about the new wired network speeds of 2.5gbps, 5gbps over existing cabling.  There are network switches and adapters that will work at this faster than 1gbps speed, without the costly re-wiring of a building.  Originally targeted at wifi access points for high density locations, it's a great tool for folks who move lots of data, like us.  We can fully saturate (use) a 1gbps network connection, especially if working off a SSD or other fast storage system.  The cost and wiring requirements for 10gbps networking is high - CAT7 cabling, fully shielded, each port on a network switch.  So they've developed a great middle ground.  The gear is still being slowly released, but Netgear seems to have jumped in with both feet with a full line up options based on need.   https://www.netgear.com/landings/multi-gig/

In IT, we compare network switches on a Price per Port, as in how much each port of a certain speed switch will be.  A 10gbps port is going to cost most than a 5gbps port, which costs more than the 2.5gbps port and 1gbps ports are just thrown around willy-nilly.  But by matching the actual need per port, you can get away with fewer of the expensive 10gbps ports, and get more of the 2.5 & 5gbps ports.

Once you start to copy around 100's of gigabytes of data, gaining a 2x or 5x speed advantage becomes huge.  For me, the advantage is to gain access to lots of storage (on my NAS) at higher speeds than I can otherwise on my Mac laptop.  By using a 25' CAT7 network cable and a tb3-10gbps adapter, I can sit on my couch and access my NAS at the fastest speed.

-Joe
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on March 21, 2018, 12:32:21 pm
To further discuss speeds, I want to lay out some of the limitations we're currently working within.  There are 2 types of storage mediums out there, flash or solid state and spinning hard drives.  The spinning hard drives are by far the slowest, but they offer up high capacity at a low price.  The other strong points of hard drives is that you don't have a write limitation, and you can do data recovery if needed.

As to solid state drives, the speed is huge, but there are different connectors that can dramatically slow things down.  Right now, the fastest setup is NVMe drives, which are solid state drives connected directly to PCIe lanes.  These can run over 2 GB/s, compared to SSD's connected to a SATA port top out around 500 MB/s.  The NVMe drives are either directly on a motherboard or via PCIe slot adapter.  The third way to connect a NVMe drive is via TB3, which is what the OWC ThunderBlade V4 is doing - https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderblade-v4

So, while a SSD is fast, a SSD connected via PCIe is even faster.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: mcbroomf on March 21, 2018, 12:54:42 pm
Thanks for that info Joe.  How will you be wired (10g), ie is that 25' Cat7 running across the floor from one room to another or do/will you have room to room outlets running through the basement so that you can keep it neat?

Somewhat off topic ... while connecting a 3rd Cat6 cable to my router in prep for my new PC I depressed the little power button on the back (ASUS RT-AC66).  Now when I try to turn it back on the button won't stay depressed and as soon as I release it the power dies.  Grrr.... talk about timing!  To get round it I jammed a toothpick alongside the button while depressed to keep it in the On position, but I'm shopping for a new router.  Looks like I will upgrade to the ASUS RT-AC86 which is a bit faster and has a USB 3.1 port which might be handy.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on March 21, 2018, 02:55:03 pm
The cat7 will run across the floor - my NAS sits behind the tv in the living room.  I've done new construction with cat5e as recently as 2012, but I see cat6 is most new residential locations.  With the cable length of 25', I can get away with standard Cat6, but the price jump to Cat7 is only a few extra dollars.

One thing I didn't mention is the fun in between CAT6, CAT6a and CAT7.  In practical application, CAT6 can go 10gbps for 55 meters, CAT6a can do 10gbps for 100 meters.  CAT7 can do 10gbps and higher at 100 meters, it's more a limit of the devices plugged in at both ends.  Here's a bit more of a post - https://community.fs.com/blog/should-we-use-cat6-or-cat6a-for-10gbase-t.html

Sorry to hear about the power switch - it's very odd that it stopped working correctly.  I don't recommend sharing a drive off your home router USB3 port, there are much better solutions that do the job better.

-Joe
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: mrenters on March 24, 2018, 09:28:56 pm
You might be able to get by using Cat5e for shorter distances. I've got 10g running on Cat5e over a distance of 10m or so at home and I've seen reports of it being good for up to 45m.

I'm using an Intel X550-T2 card in my FreeNAS 11.1 server and Asus XG-C100C cards in my Windows boxes. Both of these cards will do multi-gigabit (1g, 2.5g, 5g) but negotiate and maintain 10g just fine.

My bottleneck is now the CPU (Atom C2758) and number of hard drive spindles, currently 2x10GB WD Golds in mirrored configuration. For data reads that comes out of RAM cache I've seen speeds of 550MB/sec over SMB.

Martin
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on March 25, 2018, 10:00:43 pm
Great to hear it's nice and fast, until you have to go to disk of course :)  I've got a 16 bay SAS exclosure that I think about using, doing a Z3 setup across 8 or 10 tb disks.  Then I remember it's $4,800 for 18 of them...
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Endeavour on April 05, 2018, 12:09:55 pm
cat5e is far more forgiving for home network installs.
Cat6 requires a LOT more care and attention, failure to adhere to the best practices and you've paid cat6 prices for cat5 performance

for example, one sharp bend in your cabling, can reduce the throughput by 50% (a bend with a radius less than one inch is going to cause you issues)

Cat6 cabling is delicate, and terminating correctly is a lot more difficult than cat5e


Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: FabienP on April 06, 2018, 05:06:46 pm
(...)
The gear is still being slowly released, but Netgear seems to have jumped in with both feet with a full line up options based on need.   https://www.netgear.com/landings/multi-gig/
(...)

-Joe

Thanks for the link to those Netgear switches, Joe. I didn't realise that affordable multi-gigabit switches were now widely available. Too bad that these still require active cooling, but the smaller model should be barely audible in a home / SOHO environment.

I am starting to run out of excuses for not migrating to 10GBASE-T or at least 5GBASE-T. However I am still using a six years old Ivy Bridge Xeon E3 workstation and am missing PCI Express lanes to add a faster network card. I would at least need a 4x port to get enough bandwidth for the NIC.

A new workstation is planned for next year, when Spectre (and Meltdown for Intel) will hopefully be corrected in silicon!

Cheers,

Fabien
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on April 09, 2018, 11:43:46 am
Cat6 cabling is delicate, and terminating correctly is a lot more difficult than cat5e

I wouldn't call it delicate, I'd call it a pain in the ***.  The inner shield really screws with your fingertips, but it terminates into patch panels and jacks the same way that cat5e does.  Making Cat6 patch cables is a PITA, purchase pre-made ones and save your sanity.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on April 09, 2018, 05:03:40 pm
I hate to have left my favorite brand out of this discussion, so I'll loop back in the Ubiquiti products, and the Unifi 16XG - https://www.ubnt.com/unifi-switching/unifi-switch-16-xg/

It's 16 10gbps ports, 12 are SFP+, while 4 are RJ45, and $600.  The SFP+ ports don't help you much, until you see what used/system pull Mellanox 10gbps SFP+ cards cost on eBay - $24! Part number is MNPA19-XTR and you can get them with the SFP+ cable for that $24 price.  Need a longer cable, 7m SFP+ cables from FS.com are $42.  Works in Windows 7 and 10, plus NAS4Free, so if you're a home-built NAS kind of person, you have lots of options.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: paulster on April 09, 2018, 05:55:32 pm
I hate to have left my favorite brand out of this discussion, so I'll loop back in the Ubiquiti products, and the Unifi 16XG - https://www.ubnt.com/unifi-switching/unifi-switch-16-xg/

It's 16 10gbps ports, 12 are SFP+, while 4 are RJ45, and $600.  The SFP+ ports don't help you much, until you see what used/system pull Mellanox 10gbps SFP+ cards cost on eBay - $24! Part number is MNPA19-XTR and you can get them with the SFP+ cable for that $24 price.  Need a longer cable, 7m SFP+ cables from FS.com are $42.  Works in Windows 7 and 10, plus NAS4Free, so if you're a home-built NAS kind of person, you have lots of options.
Are those coming with two SFP+ modules at those prices?  The pictures suggest they do.  And do you know if those SFP+ modules are compatible with the 16XG?  That would make for a steal of a solution.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on April 09, 2018, 06:52:53 pm
It's an SFP+ to SFP+ cable, in the generic sense.  The auctions don't list a cable length, but even at 2m, it's quite a steal.  You can get SFP+ DAC cables, or you can do fiber extremely cheap.

For a fiber setup, pair these Ubiquiti MM 10gb SFP+ at $16, https://www.fs.com/products/65336.html
with these Mellanox ones https://www.fs.com/products/65334.html for the same $16,
and a 10GBase-SR fiber for $12 (15m) or less! https://www.fs.com/products/44158.html

So card ($24) plus SFP+ adapters (2 x $16) plus fiber ($12) puts it at $78 per machine.  The Ubiquiti actually comes in 2 flavors, the Unifi one which I love because it plays into all the cool network stuff I already do, or their EdgeSwitch version which is more stand-alone.

-Joe
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on May 09, 2018, 12:15:53 am
Once I can find one to purchase, I'll have some testing to share.  TB3 10gbps Ethernet - $199 msrp

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/solo-10g-tb3.html
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: paulster on May 09, 2018, 05:35:17 pm
That's a great deal!

I've been looking at the Promise SanLink3 SL3T1GL as a potential option, which is a bit smaller, but $100 more.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on May 25, 2018, 03:15:01 pm
I've got my Solo 10g and a few of the Mellanox cards, with the Asus and some switches on their way.  Will setup trunking on my Synology and test (DS1817+ w/ SSD caching). 

One addition is the unmanaged QNap 10gb switch, https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c - it's 12 ports, with 8 being either SFP+ or RJ45.  So while port trunking isn't it's thing it can do, it can aggregate other 10gbps connections.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: paulster on May 29, 2018, 02:21:27 pm
I'm interested to hear how the Solo works out, as I'm seriously thinking about pulling the trigger on one for my laptop.

I also use a DS1817+ and I've found that without SSD caching I can still get WD Blue 3D SSDs on my client workstations to thermally throttle (the Samsung Pros don't) when using the 10Gbe link, so I'm not sure that the SSD cache would really add a whole lot, at least for the large files that I'm moving around.  Did you ever test with and without it?

From my experience link aggregation on the Synology is only useful when you have multiple users hitting it at the same time.  SMB file transfers occur over a single session using one interface only.  Even backups from one Synology to another don't capitalize on the LAGs, so the benefit may not be as great as you'd expect.

Although if you have multiple users hitting it and the SSD cache then it should fly!
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: FabienP on May 30, 2018, 06:20:33 pm
(...)

From my experience link aggregation on the Synology is only useful when you have multiple users hitting it at the same time.  SMB file transfers occur over a single session using one interface only.  Even backups from one Synology to another don't capitalize on the LAGs, so the benefit may not be as great as you'd expect.

Although if you have multiple users hitting it and the SSD cache then it should fly!

This is to be expected with plain SMB connections. One would have to use SMB multichannel connections to get more bandwidth for a single client. The Synology appliances probably use Samba to serve SMB connections. The last time I checked, Samba only supports SMB multichannel as an experimental feature and will not be activated in stable releases used in NAS appliances.

LAGG interfaces remain useful as a failover.

Cheers,

Fabien
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: armand on May 30, 2018, 07:24:20 pm
I don't want to hijack the thread but this might be helpful.
I was reading this review: https://photographylife.com/reviews/synology-ds1618 where they mentioned that you could just get a crossover cable between that particular NAS and the desktop so you can access it it from the desktop at 10G and at 1G from the rest of the computers or at AC wireless speeds.
Sounds like a lower/ less complicated investment while getting most of the benefits, what do you think?
I'm quite tempted, for me it will solve the workable storage issue (I use a volume comprised of several SSDs on SATA, so a similar speed) while having easier access from everywhere else on the net.

PS. I currently use a DS412+ as a backup only
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on May 30, 2018, 11:40:47 pm
I don't want to hijack the thread but this might be helpful.
I was reading this review: https://photographylife.com/reviews/synology-ds1618 where they mentioned that you could just get a crossover cable between that particular NAS and the desktop so you can access it it from the desktop at 10G and at 1G from the rest of the computers or at AC wireless speeds.
Sounds like a lower/ less complicated investment while getting most of the benefits, what do you think?
I'm quite tempted, for me it will solve the workable storage issue (I use a volume comprised of several SSDs on SATA, so a similar speed) while having easier access from everywhere else on the net.

PS. I currently use a DS412+ as a backup only

Yes, for a single connection doing a normal cable to between 2 10gbps port is much simpler, though you'd want to statically assign the IP's in a different network and do the mount via IP rather than hostname.  One thing most folks don't remember is that gigabit and faster are auto-crossover (MDI/MDI-X), so don't waste money on a CAT6a crossover cable  ;D

I wish the DS1618+ was more in line with the DS918+ in the dedicated, NVMe slots, but it lacks 10gbps networking.  If anything both need to be relaunched with NBASE-T ports that do 2.5/5gbps ports.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on June 01, 2018, 06:26:27 pm
The latest Synology 6.2 software does allow for multilink performace on the NFS shares, so I'll be testing that as well.

Did a quick one today, and just switching from SMB to AFP on the same share, same port doubled the speed as per the AJA speed test.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on December 14, 2018, 03:12:53 pm
I'm going to bump this thread, as there's good content and it's all related to setting up a 10gbps network.

Since we last chatted a bunch of new products have come to market that I want folks to be aware of.  Apple got into the 10gbps game with the latest 2018 MacMini - hopefully we'll see it in the next revisions of the iMac and MacPro's.  There are more TB3 adapters with both OWC (https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/TB3ADP10GBE) and QNAP (https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qna-tb-10gbe) offering up adapters at $200 or less.  QNAP actually has 2 options, the standard RJ45 you've loved and the fancy SFP+ connection (more on this below).  For desktops, I'm still a huge fan of the eBay Mellanox cards with a SFP+ cable, but the Asus and new QNAP (https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/nic_pc) cards are both $99 or less.

On the NAS front, QNAP is doing a lot with SFP+ enabled units - starting for under $400! The TS-322x unit (https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/ts-332x) holds 3 drives, and 3 M.2 SATA drives and has a 10gb SFP+ port.  So you can do RAID5 over 3 disks, with a huge write cache in front of it with the SSD's - so copy your files on and start editing with the speed of the SSD, while it's getting written to the hard drives.  8 bay model with 2x SFP+ ports is under $800.

SFP+ adds a bit of consideration to this whole implementation, but it can make some things easier.  SFP+ lets you decide what type of connection you want, be it copper or fiber optics.  I know, you see the word fiber and you're thinking huge $$ but that's not the case anymore.  To connect from a SFP+ to a SFP+, there are SFP+ DAC cables - pre-made, fancy cables, at specific lengths that most likely cost about the same as a good network cable.  Here's a 20'/6m Generic SFP+ DAC cable (https://www.fs.com/products/74623.html) for $25.  Plug it in and you're done.  If you wanted a longer connection, OM3 Multi-mode fiber is really cheap, even when you count in the SFP+ Fiber adapters.  To do a connection you'd need 2 of these Generic SFP+ 10gb (https://www.fs.com/products/74668.html) adapters ($16 each) and a OM3 MM LC-LC fiber (https://www.fs.com/products/41730.html) to connect them.  1m length ($2.80) all the way to 30m ($14) in length, it's an simple to see things at max speed.

Now that you see SFP+ as a viable, cost effective option, lets plug in a bunch of devices.  The QNAP switch has 12 ports, 4 SFP+ and 8 SFP+/RJ45's and is less than $500.  I've got one and love it, but there are times when you only have a few 10gb devices and a bunch of 1gb devies.  Here's the current steal - a 24port 1gb switch with 4 10gb SFP+ ports for $279!! (https://www.fs.com/products/72944.html)  Yea, plug in a NAS and 3 workstations to 10gbps speed, plus everyone else can access the 10gbps network without the throttle of a single 1gbps port.  Even if you only have a NAS plugged in at 10gbps, and all other devices at 1gbps, you're able to have multiple machines connecting and not limited by the link from the switch to the NAS.

What else would you like to know or hear about?
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Dan Wells on December 15, 2018, 10:13:30 am
10G has a very interesting feature - it's fast enough that there's no difference in speed between NAS and most local bulk storage (PCIe SSDs and SSD RAID can still outrun 10G and need to be connected by something faster - internal or Thunderbolt 3). Unfortunately, other than the dedicated link option, 10G is still very pricey because of the darned switches - there are still no switches under $500 unless you count refurbished bulky things with 24 standard gigabit ports and a couple of 10G uplink ports.

 We're seeing more 10G ports built into higher-end computers (the iMac Pro is an example of interest to photographers, and there is even an option for $100 on the latest Mac Mini). Most Apple desktops should have 10G as either standard or optional from now on, as will  many creative-oriented PCs.  Higher-end NAS boxes have built-in 10G (I hadn't yet seen Joe's example of a $400 NAS, but I certainly believe it) , and it's not hugely expensive to add to a PC with a card, or even to a Mac as the Thunderbolt adapters have come down from $600 to $200 or less - but the switches are still pricey.

I think we'll see an explosion in interest in 10G among individual photographers and small studios when we see a $200ish switch with 3-5 10G ports and a few gigabit ports (or 8 10G ports with no gigabit). Most of us don't need 24 total ports, don't want to mess with SFP+, but want more than a couple of 10G ports. An average photographer wants 10G for a NAS and a couple of computers (desktop and a laptop with a TB adapter, for example), while a small studio may have 3-5 computers and maybe a second NAS on 10G. Gigabit ports are useful for additional computers that don't hit the NAS often, printers and routers...

If there was an affordable 8-port 10G switch (or even a 5-port), it would be easy enough to put the critical devices on 10G, linking it to the rest of the network with a gigabit uplink or two... Oddly, a switch that is mainly 10G with a couple of gigabit ports  is more useful in a small network than the opposite. Often, all the 10G devices will be in one room (or one room with a NAS in a closet nearby), with gigabit devices spread out - if the photography gear is in a home, there are likely to be gigabit devices all over the house (although many of them may be WiFi or powerline).

Depending on how you're set up, the 10G segment may be all patch cables straight to the switch (even good patch cables are relatively cheap), with any in-wall cabling being gigabit. Even gigabit internet is really rare - since the internet link is likely to be 100 megabits or so, gigabit connections work fine for anything that is mainly accessing the internet. Even big photo printers and high-speed laser printers (within reason - I don't know the data rates on 100 page per minute lasers or the like, but how many photographers worry about those?) are well under a gigabit, and won't benefit from a faster connection - a surprising number of printers had 100 megabit Ethernet until gigabit chips became so cheap that there's no reason to use anything else. Streaming boxes, game consoles and the like can use a lot of bandwidth, but are limited by the speed of the internet connection - they don't do much on the LAN in most cases.  The only real use for 10G is hitting local NAS boxes at high speed or transferring data between local computers - and those are probably all close together...
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: DP on December 16, 2018, 09:44:12 am
An average photographer wants 10G for a NAS and a couple of computers (desktop and a laptop with a TB adapter, for example),

then that average photographer can simply build DIY NAS using generic (from Ebay) NAS case and using motherboard with 2 x 10g ports - hence no switch needed at all ...
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on December 16, 2018, 02:28:25 pm
While things like XigmaNAS (NAS4Free renamed since they couldn't trademark), and FreeNAS (iXsystems) make the build your own NAS fairly easy, the savings compared to purchasing a diskless NAS are quickly lost if you ever have an issue.  It's just a matter of your individual tech abilities, and how you value your time.  If you have to go find someone who can help rescue your ZFS Pool, it's going to be costly.  Plus the cost savings just isn't there compared to the ease of doing a Synology (lots of personal experience) or QNAP (will be playing with soon).

As for the switch, we're still only seeing the beginning of 10gbps or 2.5/5/10gbps (NBaseT) models.  The FS.com model for $279 with dual power supplies is a bit more than most home users, but the price makes up for dealing with SFP+.  Netgear has the switch I think that matches what Dan wants    
MS510TX for $270 (https://www.netgear.com/business/products/switches/smart/MS510TX.aspx?_ga=2.1963441.1032313775.1544986324-947103699.1544986324) 10 ports broken down a bit:  4x1gbps, 2x2.5gbps, 2x5gbps, 1x10gbps RJ45, 1x10gbps SFP+  Only catch is that you need the newest 10gb cards that speak 2.5/5gbps as well.
 
Yes, the direct connect works fine, just remember who you're walking thru setting static IP's and making sure any mounts or traffic goes over the faster link.  I'll take 2.5gbps or 5gpbs any day over 1gbps.
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: DP on December 16, 2018, 02:45:41 pm
Plus the cost savings just isn't there compared to the ease of doing a Synology (lots of personal experience) or QNAP (will be playing with soon).

you always pay more for the ease if you can't DIY, that's true...
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Christopher on December 16, 2018, 05:13:07 pm
Well what you also get is a lot more power. Especially the Synology are quite weak on CPU power. While it works for most cases you can built a mich more powerfull System if you know what your doing.

I agree that freeNAS and co is nothing for people who havenít built and configured their own computers. For these applications a Synology or Qnap is the way to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Dan Wells on December 19, 2018, 07:16:38 pm
I might or might not ever tackle a NAS build - and I've built many computers over the years. The hardware doesn't scare me at all, but dealing with a NAS OS without "walk me through" configuration is at least mildly scary (and I've configured all manner of RAID, including Fibre Channel for a friend - back in the days when you couldn't easily get anything else over 10 TB with decent speed). I'm also an ex-IT professional (very ex - it was 15+ years ago, when I was right out of college).

I'd guess that most photographers probably don't have that level of computer skill - some certainly have much more than I do (isn't Bill Atkinson, who wrote much of the original Mac software, a photographer)? Maybe I'm overestimating how hard it is to build a NAS, and I'd be fine...

When I think about the kind of NAS I'd want, were I to bother to build one, it would be an 8-bay or 12-bay with 10 GB Ethernet. Ideally, it would have a second Ethernet port (doesn't have to be 10GB), so it could be on two network segments - one 10Gb for the big Mac, and one right into the router so that other things can hit it over WiFi or gigabit.

 It would be a straight-out storage server, so it doesn't need a ton of computing power or RAM - I don't need to transcode on the NAS or anything like that, and I'm not running my own email or web servers... Right now, I have a 6-bay QNAP Thunderbolt hybrid NAS that serves that function, and the only reason I would replace it is that I have a remarkably storage-hungry Nikon Z7 that chews through 32 GB or more (I've come close to filling a 64 GB card in a day, and it's not even my high-shooting season) on an average day of shooting! I have about 8 TB free on the QNAP, so I probably have about a year or two before the Z7 eats it up to the point where I need something bigger.

There are some NAS case options out there - the 8 bay options I've found (I looked just to see how hard it would be) are either Mini ITX, which is a challenge because there doesn't seem to be a Mini ITX motherboard with 10 GB networking, either Intel or AMD-based, or they're conventional big server cases, which are a lot bigger than Synology and QNAP cases. Of course, I could use a Mini-ITX case and a PCIe LAN card... Once you're looking for 12 hot-swap bays, I haven't come across anything that isn't a big ol' server case (or rackmount, which will scream like a banshee in anything except a server closet).

Dan
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: DP on December 20, 2018, 05:13:10 am
Once you're looking for 12 hot-swap bays, I haven't come across anything that isn't a big ol' server case (or rackmount, which will scream like a banshee in anything except a server closet).

FRV developer just built himself a DIY NAS (plain FreeBSD OS) with 2x10g supermicro mb

(https://blog.lexa.ru/sites/blog.lexa.ru/files/00007270_0.jpg)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Multi-GPU-Computer-case-6U470MM-Support-6-Pcs-lengthen-graphics-card-double-ATX-power-supply-many/32830477668.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Multi-GPU-Computer-case-6U470MM-Support-6-Pcs-lengthen-graphics-card-double-ATX-power-supply-many/32830477668.html)
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: DP on December 20, 2018, 05:29:33 am
and ultimately you can just put Windows Workstation (Enterprise and Pro) with Resilient File System (ReFS) @ storage spaces... certainly it is not FreeBSD & ZFS - but Windows... so less hassle if you don't want to touch plain FreeBSD or it's FreeNAS-like incarnations
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Dan Wells on December 20, 2018, 03:08:55 pm
Has anyone seen a "name" version of a case like that? Something like a Fractal Design, Silverstone, Corsair, SuperMicro or whatever sold by Newegg or Amazon, shipped from the US? Or will this always be a game of dealing with overseas suppliers with little guarantee and shipping costs more than half the cost of the product? I suppose it would be possible to take out the moving parts (primarily the fans and any included power supplies) and replace them with trusted models - but there's a backplane in there that's probably a custom PCB. I wouldn't trust my photos to anything that didn't come from a company I'd heard of with a reputation for quality (if it were a media server where everything was also in the cloud, I might feel differently). Of course I back everything up, but I also want known high-quality systems...
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: DP on December 20, 2018, 04:53:16 pm
Has anyone seen a "name" version of a case like that?

well, he did a research... his comments were essentially why in the world chineese workers can't do some 3rd shift pumping brand-name looking cases over the fence for cash  ;D ... but still agree - it is a decent looking case and small...

you can try to wrestle (some idioms and there are many, can't be translated still no matter how big Google's data grown) with google translate @ https://blog.lexa.ru/2018/12/10/ekonomika_kolhoza.html ...
Title: Re: To 10g or not to 10g ...
Post by: Joe Towner on January 11, 2019, 11:01:57 am
A motherboard that has dual 10gbps NIC's on it is going to cost a couple hundred dollars - cheapest is $275 on Newegg, though ASRock has a few with a single 2.6gbps NIC.  So you're much better purchasing a rock solid board and using a PCIe NIC.

Back on topic - Ubiquiti has a 10gbps SFP+ to RJ45 adapter I want to try - https://store.ubnt.com/products/uf-rj45-10g-1  $65 to convert one of the 10gbps QNAP's from SFP+ to RJ45 would be huge to a lot of people.