Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: 32BT on March 13, 2018, 10:29:52 am

Title: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 13, 2018, 10:29:52 am
So let's see if civilised discussion is still possible, note that I have zero tolerance for inappropriate direct or implied generalisations.

But this one has me worried, and I would like to know other people's view. Please understand that:
1. I am not a US citizen
2. If I were a US citizen, I would lean towards democrats
3. If the democrats had a reasonable candidate other than Hillary, that person would likely have had my vote.

A US president's primary objective is surrounding him/herself with the best team possible. Therefore one should prefer a well connected and networked president. I don't much care for the Bush jr philosophy and legacy, but he certainly was able to form and manage a great team.

And this is what worries me with Trump, as Trump's general strategy in business is: hire & fire until you find the best fit. While that may work in a business setting, it is absolutely counterproductive in politics, because no self-respecting good politician is going to put his/her reputation on the line in that way, since being fired at that level pretty much means the end of one's political career.

And now apparently we lost Tillerson as secretary of state. Frankly it was the one person I deemed a good candidate in a good position in the Trump team. (Can you even call it a team with the current speed of changes?). In fact, if you lean toward conservative or ultra-conservative thinking, and also like a more business-like approach to politics, then Tillerson would probably be the ultimate presidential candidate as well.

So, how do others, especially conservatives, view Tillerson and these recent events?






Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 10:31:24 am
good riddance, now if Trump can rid of Nikki, Pompeo and some others we are all set  ;D
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: James Clark on March 13, 2018, 12:49:15 pm
good riddance, now if Trump can rid of Nikki, Pompeo and some others we are all set  ;D

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but with the exception of Mattis you've just listed the remaining cabinet members who could reasonably be labeled as competent, their political leanings notwithstanding.   

"All the best people..."  Isn't that what Trump said?  It's a joke that would be hilarious, if it weren't so pathetic.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: digitaldog on March 13, 2018, 12:59:23 pm
But wait, there's more....


President Donald Trump's longtime personal aide John McEntee is out at the White House, marking yet another departure in an executive office marked by a revolving door of hirings and firings.

An Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman quit and accused top Trump administration officials of releasing "misleading facts" over recent raids in California.


They go in threes (per day)?
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 01:12:49 pm
I can't tell if you're being serious

of course I am... I am sorry I forgot to mention rabid dog Mattis in the list.

Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 01:14:21 pm
An Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman quit and accused top Trump administration officials of releasing "misleading facts" over recent raids in California.

that was probably some closet(ed) democrat...
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 13, 2018, 01:20:38 pm
I'm specifically asking about Tillerson. It seems if you want to establish stable, long-term relations with foreign entities, it would stand to reason to want a stable entrypoint into your administration. Additionally, i would trust a person of his experience and stature regarding assessment of and strategic direction in foreign affairs.

But perhaps other people have a better idea of who he is and how he does or doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 02:07:41 pm
meanwhile : Gina, She Wolf of the SS = https://twitter.com/ECCHRBerlin/status/973554007695294464
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: OmerV on March 13, 2018, 02:10:27 pm
Tillerson was in over his head. He was a CEO and believed he could be a diplomat. Yes, Trump was dissatisfied with Tillerson's direction and though Tillerson is undoubtedly a smart guy, he got suckered, like others, by Trump and the bright lights of the position.

The problem is in negotiating Trump's tunnel vision with that of diplomacy. We don't live in the '50s and our economic well being is weaved into an international dependency that requires give and take. Good luck to the next candidate and us.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 13, 2018, 02:13:57 pm
I liked Tillerson, probably the most level headed person in his government.
However I'm biased, I met him personally a few years ago and he made quite an impression, very sharp and a pleasure to talk with.

Just saw Trump on television saying "I got along with Rex fine, but we had some differences of opinion about certain issues". Apparently he's trying to retract into an echo chamber (do I see a trend?) where everybody agrees with him, makes it much easier to push through his agenda. I don't see much good coming from this move.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: amolitor on March 13, 2018, 02:16:53 pm
They go in threes (per day)?

The stress of the job has caused the President to acquire a slight stutter.

YOU'RE FIRE..FIRE..FIRED!
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 02:52:13 pm
Tillerson was in over his head. He was a CEO and believed he could be a diplomat.

there were some farmers serving as presidents, so ?
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris_Brown on March 13, 2018, 03:22:36 pm
I'm specifically asking about Tillerson.

My conspiracy theory is that there's dirty people in the State Dept. and they (FBI, CIA, Trump) told Tillerson, who then gladly stepped aside for Pompeo. And this move is a way for the top spook to oversea not only foreign events, but those within the department which directly affects that USA government function.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: OmerV on March 13, 2018, 03:38:22 pm
there were some farmers serving as presidents, so ?
The presidency is an elected position, the Secretary of State is an appointed position. Since we live in a democracy, farmers can get themselves elected to whatever they want, but getting appointed as Secretary of Sate should require a specific set skills.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on March 13, 2018, 03:40:54 pm
Saw this article from politico.com: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/13/tillerson-fired-state-department-reaction-459535 (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/13/tillerson-fired-state-department-reaction-459535).
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on March 13, 2018, 03:42:09 pm
It seems if you want to establish stable, long-term relations with foreign entities, it would stand to reason to want a stable entrypoint into your administration.

That ship may have sailed.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 13, 2018, 04:13:02 pm
I'm pretty much middle of the road with a slight liberal bias when it comes to caring for and helping marginalized people in society.

I also would like to see Tillerson as President just to get that old fashion Presidential tone of respect and stability back into the White House circa 1950's.

Tillerson reminds me of the typical manly poker face Texan I grew up with as a native Texan who kept folks guessing as to which way they viewed situations in order to make sound decisions that worked for the long term. But then this was the type the counterculture railed against back in the '60's & '70's.

Maybe we need a more nostalgic President now that us old hippies no longer have anything to rebel against.

I'm pretty sure Tillerson doesn't have any skeletons in the closet that would come back to bite him in the political behind along the lines of a sexual type scandal. He's stated he's an old boy scout and his word is his bond. How could that make things worse than they already are under Trump?
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 05:52:19 pm
The presidency is an elected position, the Secretary of State is an appointed position. Since we live in a democracy, farmers can get themselves elected to whatever they want, but getting appointed as Secretary of Sate should require a specific set skills.

1) we are not a democracy

2) comment was narrow - about his belief(s).. if a farmer can believe that he can be a president, nothing wrong with some CEO believing that he can be a State Sec.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: texshooter on March 13, 2018, 06:03:46 pm

Could it be that some Democrats are more worried Trump will succeed than they are worried America will fail?

I'm feeling a song coming on...


(http://sheetmusic-free.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/The-Winner-Takes-It-All-Sheet-Music-ABBA-Piano-Sheet-Music.jpg)

Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: digitaldog on March 13, 2018, 06:44:10 pm
Could it be that some Democrats are more worried Trump will succeed than they are worried America will fail?
If the last year is any indication, they have nothing to worry about.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Two23 on March 13, 2018, 07:03:10 pm
I just don't care.  It all works out in the end.  We've had some truly horrid Secretaries of State before--Madeleine Albright & Hillary come to mind, and the country survived. I have no idea why a non-US citizen would care about it either.  I have no idea who the Secretary of State is in any other country, and that has zero effect on my life.



Kent in SD
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: OmerV on March 13, 2018, 07:06:20 pm
1) we are not a democracy

2) comment was narrow - about his belief(s).. if a farmer can believe that he can be a president, nothing wrong with some CEO believing that he can be a State Sec.

So hey, I want to be the best photographer ever, then I guess I am, eh?! Yeah Chill!  8)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: texshooter on March 13, 2018, 07:12:20 pm
I just don't care.

That's a song I can tap to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RHb0yOTzi_4 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RHb0yOTzi_4)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/halleonard-pagepreviews/HL_DDS_0000000000370163.png)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris Kern on March 13, 2018, 07:28:24 pm
I'm hardly a fan of Trump, Tillerson, or Pompeo, but . . .

The secretary of state's policy preferences are expected to align with those of the president.  Pompeo's do; Tillerson's—he is accustomed to being the guy who makes the policy—at least occasionally did not.  And Tillerson was caught referring to el señor Loco as "a moron," which, however technically accurate, is no way to ingratiate yourself to el jefe.

Pompeo is no dope.  He has strong political views, which I think irrationally biased his behavior during the Benghazi hearings in the House of Representatives, but he has supported the unanimous conclusions by the U.S. intelligence "community" regarding attempts by Russian intelligence services to influence the 2016 U.S. presidential election, despite Trump's denials, and I'm willing to bet he will listen to the foreign service officers at State, as well.

I also believe a director of central intelligence who is a career civil servant is more likely than a political appointee to make certain the agency operates within the strict boundaries of the law.  I wouldn't be particularly concerned about Gina Haspel's involvement in controversial practices, because she—like any other career federal employee (myself included, when I worked for the U.S. government)—was required to carry out any presumptively-legal instructions she received from her management.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Farmer on March 13, 2018, 07:54:14 pm
1) we are not a democracy

You are a democratic, constitutional republic, I suppose.  In short hand, you're a democracy.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Two23 on March 13, 2018, 08:03:32 pm
That's a song I can tap to.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RHb0yOTzi_4 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RHb0yOTzi_4)



This is the first song that came to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Q3gd6S1as

It's from 1905, written by Lenox/Sutton.  I have several CDs of music from 1900-1920 that I listen to in my car.



Kent in SD
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 08:24:28 pm
You are a democratic, constitutional republic, I suppose.  In short hand, you're a democracy.

just your wishful thinking... like being a little bit pregnant
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 13, 2018, 08:26:35 pm
good news... HRMcM is on a chopping block... lovely
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: bassman51 on March 13, 2018, 09:06:32 pm
I think it's impossible for many of us to know whether Tillerson was any good in the job or not.  He was hamstrung by a boss who really didn't appear to care what he thought, and contradicted him on many occasions.  His staff - meaning the career employees of the State Department - apparently hated him.  Again, we have no idea if they were really effective and justified in their views, or if the whole department is a mess. 

In Tillerson's defense, he apparently refered to The Dumpster as an "f$$k$ng moron" - so he does have some positive traits.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: James Clark on March 13, 2018, 09:15:46 pm
good news... HRMcM is on a chopping block... lovely

Taking you at your word that you're serious, why do you think it's good that the few cabinet members that are honestly regarded as good fits for their roles are being fired?
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on March 13, 2018, 10:21:59 pm
Taking you at your word that you're serious, why do you think it's good that the few cabinet members that are honestly regarded as good fits for their roles are being fired?

+1

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 13, 2018, 10:58:42 pm
I liked Tillerson, probably the most level headed person in his government.
However I'm biased, I met him personally a few years ago and he made quite an impression, very sharp and a pleasure to talk with.

Just saw Trump on television saying "I got along with Rex fine, but we had some differences of opinion about certain issues". Apparently he's trying to retract into an echo chamber (do I see a trend?) where everybody agrees with him, makes it much easier to push through his agenda. I don't see much good coming from this move.
I like and supported Tillerson. I was happy when he made Secretary of State.  But Trump wants to run the US government like he ran the Trump Organization.  He's boss. He's his own man and his instincts are paramount to him.  It worked for him in the Republican nomination process and in the general election. Why should he listen to everyone else who was wrong?   He doesn't believe or trust government bureaucrats.  He thinks they're all nitwits.  Most are.  Maybe that's why he likes generals like Mattis.  They're more competent generally than bureaucrats.  Their troop's lives depend on it. 

The person above who praised how Bush managed a great team forgets to mention that that great team convinced Bush to go to war in Iraq causing a conflagration that hasn't ended.  And look at that genius Secretary of Defense McNamara who kept telling the President Johnson and everyone else how we were winning in Vietnam because the body count was in our favor.  So "good" advisers are not cracked up to the hype about them.  They all get caught up in process and don't see the forest from the trees.  Like photographers who are counting pixels all the time instead of actually seeing what they're looking at. 

In any case, my guess is that Pompeo won't fare well either.   
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Farmer on March 13, 2018, 11:29:21 pm
just your wishful thinking... like being a little bit pregnant

So what are you, then?  Pony up a rational and supported opinion.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: DP on March 14, 2018, 12:15:50 am
I like and supported Tillerson. I was happy when he made Secretary of State.

did you support that b$$$h too ?

(https://scontent.fagc3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29186953_1843166805733698_5697092509746855936_n.jpg?oh=84595159ab630d46184d8901fe7350d6&oe=5B4B7932)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 14, 2018, 12:34:11 am
The person above who praised how Bush managed a great team forgets to mention that that great team convinced Bush to go to war in Iraq causing a conflagration that hasn't ended. 

Comprehensive readingskills FTW. Literally:

I don't much care for the Bush jr philosophy and legacy...
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 14, 2018, 12:36:20 am
did you support that b$$$h too ?

DP, could you try to post more than a single antagonizing sentence each time you post? It makes the conversation more interesting and pleasant to me.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Rob C on March 14, 2018, 09:47:39 am
Well, Pompeo Posar was a top Playboy staffer, so photography does have a place in politics after all.

Rob
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 14, 2018, 10:30:16 am
Comprehensive readingskills FTW. Literally:

You cherry picked part of your sentence.  Your complete sentence was: "I don't much care for the Bush jr philosophy and legacy, but he certainly was able to form and manage a great team."  Like I said, that great team convinced Bush to go into Iraq. 
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris_Brown on March 14, 2018, 10:31:55 am
Well, Pompeo Posar was a top Playboy staffer, so photography does have a place in politics after all.

One of the best, IMO.

(https://pxhst.co/avaxhome/c5/c9/002dc9c5.jpeg)

Back on topic:
As Secretary of the DoS Rex Tillerson supported the Paris Climate Treaty; the President did not; Secretary Tillerson supported the Obama administration’s Iran deal; the President did not; Tillerson was more apologetic toward lax immigration policy; the President is not; and there were other visible departures visible surrounding the use of economic leverage to achieve national security advancements, specifically on the issue of China and North Korea policy.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 14, 2018, 11:28:14 am
You cherry picked part of your sentence.  Your complete sentence was: "I don't much care for the Bush jr philosophy and legacy, but he certainly was able to form and manage a great team."  Like I said, that great team convinced Bush to go into Iraq.

Try to separate process and result. I don't condone the philosophy (pre-emptive strike), i don't much like the result (the world didn't become a safer place, au contraire), but his team was consistent and strong enough to convince the American people (congress) and several foreign allies to implement their strategy.

Whether they convinced Bush himself isn't even relevant. You don't want a POTUS to micromanage the largest and strongest nation in the world, which is what the constant hiring&firing is basically achieving. If you don't like the result of some detail, then just fire&hire someone else to conform to your idea of what the detail should look like.

You want a POTUS to basically form a team he/she can trust that will eventually result in the details being managed. Or do you really want your President to select the actual color of the wall they are planning to build? Because it currently looks very much like that is exactly what's happening.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 14, 2018, 11:31:37 am
Back on topic:
As Secretary of the DoS Rex Tillerson supported the Paris Climate Treaty; the President did not; Secretary Tillerson supported the Obama administration’s Iran deal; the President did not; Tillerson was more apologetic toward lax immigration policy; the President is not; and there were other visible departures visible surrounding the use of economic leverage to achieve national security advancements, specifically on the issue of China and North Korea policy.

Why the h**l did he hire him in the first place? It's not like these aren't the broader issues as well as speer points of his campaign.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris_Brown on March 14, 2018, 12:09:52 pm
Why the h**l did he hire him in the first place? It's not like these aren't the broader issues as well as speer points of his campaign.

"speer"? Please define.

As Chairman & CEO of Exxon/Mobil, he had a excellent working knowledge of the flow of energy resources and money through many parts of the world, especially the middle east. This was very useful to Trump at the beginning of his presidency in that it helped determine allies and foes within the geopolitical landscape.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 14, 2018, 12:40:15 pm
"speer"? Please define.

Sorry, dutch for "spear"

As Chairman & CEO of Exxon/Mobil, he had a excellent working knowledge of the flow of energy resources and money through many parts of the world, especially the middle east. This was very useful to Trump at the beginning of his presidency in that it helped determine allies and foes within the geopolitical landscape.

Are you suggesting they just scraped his knowledge? Knowledge that likely is available in the system already? I mean i fully agree, even as a potential democrat, that he was a strong candidate for the job, but one would think they selected him because they could trust him with shaping and implementing the desired vision.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 14, 2018, 04:00:39 pm
Trump uses his subordinates when he trusts them.  Like Mattis who he's letting run the military operations as Mattis see fit in Afghanistan and the Middle East.  Unfortunately, Tillerson seemed like a good candidate for Secretary of State; I thought he'd be good too.  But it didn't work out.  So he replaced him.  Should he keep someone  on who he thinks isn't doing the job?  It's not a big deal.  It's just that Trump opposition is using it to bash him. 

If you hired a photographer who you thought had the stuff but it turns out that his work doesn't meet your needs or standards, would you keep him?  How about a camera that's you researched for weeks that then turns out to be really bad ergonomically.  Sometimes you don't know until you get to hold it in your hands. 
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris_Brown on March 14, 2018, 04:47:53 pm
Are you suggesting they just scraped his knowledge? Knowledge that likely is available in the system already? I mean i fully agree, even as a potential democrat, that he was a strong candidate for the job, but one would think they selected him because they could trust him with shaping and implementing the desired vision.

No. I'm suggesting his usefulness in the realm of geopolitical economies had expired.

Quote
Knowledge that likely is available in the system already?

I don't think Tillerson's business ties were fully known at the State Dept. prior to his arrival.


I also believe Tillerson was tasked with deflating the bloated bureaucracy of the US State Dept.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Two23 on March 14, 2018, 06:36:08 pm
One of the best, IMO.

(https://pxhst.co/avaxhome/c5/c9/002dc9c5.jpeg)



If that photo doesn't demonstrate the reason to shoot an 8x10, nothing will.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris_Brown on March 14, 2018, 07:39:13 pm
If that photo doesn't demonstrate the reason to shoot an 8x10, nothing will.

The photo was taken for the cover of American Photo in the 1980s. The article indicated he used his 8x10 for the majority of his work, and there were some great BTS pics in the article.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Otto Phocus on March 15, 2018, 08:59:25 am
One should keep in mind that the duty of the SecState is to implement the foreign policy of the president. SecStates do not make foreign policy, they are the executive agent of implementation.

SecStates should be encouraged to offer up dissenting viewpoints (they are really important) and challenge the presidents foreign policy, in private, but at the end of the day, the president makes foreign policy and the SecState implements it.

If the president does not have the confidence that the SecState will implement the president's foreign policy to the best of his or her ability, it is reasonable to replace the SecState.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Robert Roaldi on March 15, 2018, 09:49:05 am
If the president does not have the confidence that the SecState will implement the president's foreign policy to the best of his or her ability, it is reasonable to replace the SecState.

Every couple of months, if need be.  :)

(Sorry, could not stop myself.)

Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Otto Phocus on March 15, 2018, 12:15:24 pm
Maybe Trump needs a group of SecStates that he can quickly rotate in and out as his viewpoints change?
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Rob C on March 15, 2018, 12:43:33 pm
The photo was taken for the cover of American Photo in the 1980s. The article indicated he used his 8x10 for the majority of his work, and there were some great BTS pics in the article.

Yeah; as reliable as my memory may or may not be, he specialised in the centrefolds and not so much the more editorially based shoots. I suppose that's why the large format system was viable: one set-up - I imagine - shot to death in the name of perfection. Mario Casilli was also there for a long time, but had a different style to his work.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Rob C on March 17, 2018, 02:48:12 pm
Another investigator bites the dust; how pathetically miserable to fire him just days before he collects a pension. They did it better in the Sopranos. But that was fiction; oh, wait...

:-)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Two23 on March 17, 2018, 11:18:42 pm
Another investigator bites the dust; how pathetically miserable to fire him just days before he collects a pension. They did it better in the Sopranos. But that was fiction; oh, wait...

:-)

Rob, I assume you only get your news from European sites.  Not one of the ones I'm familiar with are honest when it comes to American politics.  Not one.  They are all as heavily biased as Pravda.  The guy deserved to be fired.  When his subordinates were guilty of the same things some actually spent time in jail!  Have you heard about he & his wife accepting $700K from Hillary Clinton's campaign in recent years?  Have you heard about all the anti-Trump memos he wrote while he was supposedly doing "unbiased" investigations?  And that he lied about it when questioned later?  He was let off easy.  The guy was corrupt.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/03/17/former-fbi-deputy-director-andrew-mccabe-fired.html


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Farmer on March 17, 2018, 11:22:18 pm
You can't seriously quote Fox to counter claims of bias!  The same network that literally lambasted and attacked Obama for talking about meeting with NK and now lauding praise so thick it will choke you on Trump for doing exactly the same thing?
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 17, 2018, 11:42:31 pm
FBI Deputy Director Wray was going to be demoted by his boss FBI Director Wray because McCabe received a negative report from the government watchdog Inspector General (IG), a non political post.  The IG report will come out soon showing McCabe lied to committees and violated other FBI rules.  Of course, the Trump hating media mainly ignored this point although even liberal CNN covered it a little based on a NY Times report. 
Quote: "The Times, citing one official close to McCabe, said the deputy director's decision to leave before his anticipated retirement in March came after Wray discussed the looming inspector general report and suggested demoting McCabe from the number two post at the bureau."

"Rather than accept the demotion, the source told the Times, McCabe informed colleagues he would leave the bureau Monday."

Of course the Trump hating press will continue to blame Trump for Wray's malfeasances.

 https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/29/politics/chris-wray-mccabe-fbi/index.html
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: jeremyrh on March 18, 2018, 05:18:44 am
Have you heard about he & his wife accepting $700K from Hillary Clinton's campaign in recent years? 

Looking forward to seeing your proof of that particular statement (no, Fox reports don't count).
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 05:34:10 am
Rob, I assume you only get your news from European sites.  Not one of the ones I'm familiar with are honest when it comes to American politics.  Not one.  They are all as heavily biased as Pravda. 
What a bunch of crap, I've seen several European media making honest reports about how the guy may have been involved in illegal activities. Just look a bit further than what Fox writes about European media before you make statements like these.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: LesPalenik on March 18, 2018, 05:50:45 am
What a bunch of crap, I've seen several European media making honest reports about how the guy may have been involved in illegal activities. Just look a bit further than what Fox writes about European media before you make statements like these.

Very true! I get most of the news from Guardian and Spiegel. Not only report they more objectively and more factually than the American publications, but interestingly, in most cases, they publish the latest news before they appear in the USA.
To the critiquers of European papers - try them, you may like them!
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Rob C on March 18, 2018, 08:08:53 am
Very true! I get most of the news from Guardian and Spiegel. Not only report they more objectively and more factually than the American publications, but interestingly, in most cases, they publish the latest news before they appear in the USA.
To the critiquers of European papers - try them, you may like them!

I may be mistaken here, but isn't it the case that the US newspaper industry is run on far more local terms, in that there isn't such a thing as a national one? That could impact the relative value given international news. I find that UK tv is also less likely to embrace news stories that have no direct bearing on solely UK concerns. (However, it also had strictly regional channels.) For that wider interest, I use places such as france24 though their problem is one of under-funding (I think), and good documentaries are repeated to the level of the involuntary scream. That said, daily stories are pretty varied and comprehensive in scope.

Rob
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris Kern on March 18, 2018, 09:42:55 am
I may be mistaken here, but isn't it the case that the US newspaper industry is run on far more local terms, in that there isn't such a thing as a national one? That could impact the relative value given international news.

Among the major U.S. dailies, only the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal genuinely qualify as national newspapers.  Both, perhaps not coincidentally, have successfully made the transition from paper to electronic subscription models.  Both also have strong traditions of scrupulously trying to maintain the objectivity of their reporting staffs, and enforcing a strict separation between their news and opinion operations.  The Washington Post has long had aspirations to become a national newspaper, but its readership remains primarily regional—Washington, D.C., and the areas of Maryland and Virginia surrounding the national capital.  I also detect a tendency for reporters' or editors' opinions to leak into the Post's news coverage.  It's not blatant, but you probably would never need to read any of the opinion columns to guess that the paper's outlook was a "liberal" one.

The Journal and the Post offer more extensive international coverage than most big-city dailies in the United States.  Their foreign reporting is quite good, but except for events of worldwide significance it tends to be targeted to the interests of their respective readerships (business executives for the Journal and people with an interest in politics and government for the Post).  The Times invests considerable resources into covering foreign regional and country-specific events in addition to major worldwide stories.  Its international coverage has become significantly more sophisticated during the last ten years with the hiring of an increasing number of reporters (both as staff members and contract "stringers") who are natives of the countries they are assigned to.  They still have to meet the Times's rigorous editorial standards, but their ability to understand the cultural and political nuances of events routinely gives the paper's international stories a depth that I have rarely seen matched by other U.S. newspapers—or, frankly, by the English-language newspapers from other countries with which I am familiar.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 18, 2018, 10:39:20 am
Chris, I disagree that the NY Times isn't biased.  As a New Yorker who has read the Times all my life, its liberal, Democrat  opinion and editorial viewpoints tend to leak into it's hard news sections as well.   The Washington Post is worse.  The Post and Times also have international and national influence.  Just look up Google News and see how many articles are re-printed from both the Times and Post.  I'm not on Facebook.  But I bet it's similar.

Also, both papers sell their news to other media who can't afford to have their own staffs in Washington DC and elsewhere reporting on the news.  So the liberal biases of both papers extend to news, cable and other media nationally and internationally.  The CNN quoting the NY Times article that I mentioned above is an example.  Hard- copy newspapers use articles from these two sources as bylines.  The power of the Times and Post to effect world political opinion is powerful even though they're both nominally local papers of NYC and Washington DC.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 11:02:31 am
Mediafactcheck puts both the NY Times and Washington Post as "Left Center" which means:
Quote
These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias.  They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes.  These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation.

They both also have a factual reporting rating of "High", which is in my mind more important then the bias. You can easily see through a (slight) bias and make up your own mind about that, but if they start putting in straight lies or "alternate facts" (like FOX or Breitbart) it takes more work to debunk, even though that can be fun as well ;)

Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 18, 2018, 11:25:09 am
Breitbart has no power.  Nobody reads them or cares what they have to say.  They're used as a straw man by the anti-Trump, liberal press.

The issue with "facts" and "lies" are not the main issue with Times and the Post.  It's how they present the news.  Nobody's saying that Trump didn't want McCabe fired.  He did.  That's as far as they go to make Trump the culprit not McCabe.  But what isn't being reported is that McCabe violated FBI rules and lied as reported by the non-partisan Inspector General who recommended disciplinary action against McCabe.  Instead of recusing himself, McCabe also continued to "investigate" Hillary email server while Hillary gave McCabe's wife $600,000 for her political campaign in Virginia through Hillary's long-time friend Virginia Democrat Gov McAuliffe.  So by not reporting that, it seems like this is just Trump getting even.  That could be part of it, but to leave out McCabe's violations in the IG report is distorting the news if not outright lying.  Telling only part of the truth influences opinion.  That's bias.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: OmerV on March 18, 2018, 11:31:31 am
Breitbart has no power.  Nobody reads them or cares what they have to say.  They're used as a straw man by the anti-Trump, liberal press.

The issue with "facts" and "lies" are not the main issue with Times and the Post.  It's how they present the news.  Nobody's saying that Trump didn't want McCabe fired.  He did.  That's as far as they go to make Trump the culprit not McCabe.  But what isn't being reported is that McCabe violated FBI rules and lied as reported by the non-partisan Inspector General who recommended disciplinary action against McCabe.  Instead of recusing himself, McCabe also continued to "investigate" Hillary email server while Hillary gave McCabe's wife $600,000 for her political campaign in Virginia through her long-time friend Virginia Democrat Gov McAuliffe.  So by not reporting that, it seems like this is just Trump getting even.  That could be part of it, but to leave out McCabe's violations in the IG report is distorting the news if not outright lying.  Telling only part of the truth influences opinion.  That's bias.
Well, I learned of McCabe's possible mistakes from reading the New York Times, The Washington Post, and CNN. While it is clear all three have a liberal bias, there are just as many news organizations which have a conservative bias. The Wall Street Journal being one. 'Tis as it always has been.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 11:40:27 am
Breitbart has no power.  Nobody reads them or cares what they have to say.  They're used as a straw man by the anti-Trump, liberal press.

The issue with "facts" and "lies" are not the main issue with Times and the Post.  It's how they present the news.  Nobody's saying that Trump didn't want McCabe fired.  He did.  That's as far as they go to make Trump the culprit not McCabe.  But what isn't being reported is that McCabe violated FBI rules and lied as reported by the non-partisan Inspector General who recommended disciplinary action against McCabe.  Instead of recusing himself, McCabe also continued to "investigate" Hillary email server while Hillary gave McCabe's wife $600,000 for her political campaign in Virginia through Hillary's long-time friend Virginia Democrat Gov McAuliffe.  So by not reporting that, it seems like this is just Trump getting even.  That could be part of it, but to leave out McCabe's violations in the IG report is distorting the news if not outright lying.  Telling only part of the truth influences opinion.  That's bias.
You're making up "alternate facts". McCabe's possible mistakes (or felonies) were reported in the what you call "liberal press". Secondly somebody who supported Hillary also supported McCabe's wife, that's quite different from Hillary directly supporting McCabe's wife. Seems you're reporting here is inching closer to the Breitbart trustworthyness ;)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 18, 2018, 12:02:48 pm
You're making up "alternate facts". McCabe's possible mistakes (or felonies) were reported in the what you call "liberal press". Secondly somebody who supported Hillary also supported McCabe's wife, that's quite different from Hillary directly supporting McCabe's wife. Seems you're reporting here is inching closer to the Breitbart trustworthyness ;)
McCabe was the federal cop assigned to investigate Hillary.  His wife took Hillary's $600,000 filtered through McAuliffe a life-long confident of Hillary.  To believe that McCabe didn't think of that when he went to work to investigate Hillary strains credulity.  At a minimum, McCabe should have recused himself.  Additionally,  McCabe owed his FBI Deputy Director's position to FBI Director Comey who concluded Hillary did no wrong with her email server fiasco.  The whole thing stinks. 
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 18, 2018, 12:10:05 pm
Well, I learned of McCabe's possible mistakes from reading the New York Times, The Washington Post, and CNN. While it is clear all three have a liberal bias, there are just as many news organizations which have a conservative bias. The Wall Street Journal being one. 'Tis as it always has been.
Yes, CNN spends 5 minutes on McCabe's malfeasance.  Then spends the rest of the hour and day discussing how Trump went after McCabe.  The Times puts the good news about Trump on page 23 of their paper while the news that makes him look bad as a headline on page 1 above the fold.  That's how you distort the "truth". 
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 12:11:44 pm
McCabe was the federal cop assigned to investigate Hillary.  His wife took Hillary's $600,000 filtered through McAuliffe a life-long confident of Hillary.  To believe that McCabe didn't think of that when he went to work to investigate Hillary strains credulity.  At a minimum, McCabe should have recused himself.  Additionally,  McCabe owed his FBI Deputy Director's position to FBI Director Comey who concluded Hillary did no wrong with her email server fiasco.  The whole thing stinks.
I'm glad you now agree that what you call "liberal press" isn't as biased as you first said and that they reported on the McCabe case completely (inl. possible mistakes/fellonies).
I'm surprised you fall for the conservative press "spinning" of the 600 grand gift to McCabe's wife, I haven't seen any credible evidence this came from Hillary directly. As far as I'm concerned it's it's still in "alternative  fact" territory. And I agree that the McCabe case stinks, don't know if that it stinks enough to justify firing him a few days before his pension vested but I'm sure more "real" data will come out over time which will hopefully be more trustworthy than the feelings and emotions I now read from all sides.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 12:19:32 pm
Yes, CNN spends 5 minutes on McCabe's malfeasance.  Then spends the rest of the hour and day discussing how Trump went after McCabe.  The Times puts the good news about Trump on page 23 of their paper while the news that makes him look bad as a headline on page 1 above the fold.  That's how you distort the "truth".

More "alternate facts"

The second and third paragraph of the NYT article on the dismissal of McCabe were (March 16):

Quote from: NYT
Mr. McCabe promptly declared that his firing, and Mr. Trump’s persistent needling, were intended to undermine the special counsel’s investigation in which he is a potential witness.

Mr. McCabe is accused in a yet-to-be-released internal report of failing to be forthcoming about a conversation he authorized between F.B.I. officials and a journalist.

While they could have switched the order of these two paragraphs it's far from burrying it deep inside

And the fourth and fifth paragraph quoted the comments by Jeff Sessions, and were also not in favor of McCabe.

I don't see how any of this "distorts the truth"
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Two23 on March 18, 2018, 12:35:52 pm
You can't seriously quote Fox to counter claims of bias!  The same network that literally lambasted and attacked Obama for talking about meeting with NK and now lauding praise so thick it will choke you on Trump for doing exactly the same thing?


The opinion shows (which I generally don't watch) are biased, of course.  The actual news is pretty straight.  There is no longer one source of news that tries to just give you the facts and let you figure it out.  Every one of them now has an ideology behind them, to one extent or another.  This is dangerous for democracy as lies are quickly spread and it's hard to discern the truth.  FoxNews (again, the news) does report things other outlets skip over or try to minimize.  The McCabe firing is an excellent example.  Few of the other outlets ever mention the $700K "donation" of Hillary money or his lying under oath.  Dishonest.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Two23 on March 18, 2018, 12:42:20 pm
Mediafactcheck puts both the NY Times and Washington Post as "Left Center" which means:
They both also have a factual reporting rating of "High", which is in my mind more important then the bias. You can easily see through a (slight) bias and make up your own mind about that, but if they start putting in straight lies or "alternate facts" (like FOX or Breitbart) it takes more work to debunk, even though that can be fun as well


NYT is highly unreliable if you want the entire story.  They generally leave out pertinent facts in attempt to persuade, not inform.  FoxNews has nothing in common with Breitbart.  I put Breibart, MSNBC, NYT, Savage Nation, and to some extent CNN all in the category of propaganda outlets.


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 12:43:02 pm
The opinion shows (which I generally don't watch) are biased, of course.  The actual news is pretty straight. 
This is what Mediabiasfactcheck has to say about them:

Quote
Factual Reporting: MIXED

Notes: Fox News Channel, also known as Fox News, is an American basic cable and satellite news television channel that is owned by the Fox Entertainment Group subsidiary of 21st Century Fox. Fox News Channel has been accused of biased reporting and promoting the Republican Party and has been deemed the least accurate cable news source according to Politifact. (7/19/2016)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 12:50:14 pm

NYT is highly unreliable if you want the entire story. 

And here is their report on the NYT
Quote
Factual Reporting: HIGH

Notes: The New York Times (sometimes abbreviated to NYT) is an American daily newspaper, founded and continuously published in New York City since September 18, 1851, by The New York Times Company. The New York Times has won 117 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other news organization. NYT is well sourced and factual in reporting.  The paper has a pretty strong left wing editorial bias, but is considered one of the most reliable sources for information. (5/18/2016) Update (4/25/2017)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: OmerV on March 18, 2018, 12:59:39 pm

The actual news is pretty straight.  There is no longer one source of news that tries to just give you the facts and let you figure it out.  Every one of them now has an ideology behind them, to one extent or another.  This is dangerous for democracy as lies are quickly spread and it's hard to discern the truth. 

Kent in SD
When was news not slanted? What publisher started a newspaper or magazine without intending to further their own ideology?
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Two23 on March 18, 2018, 01:11:14 pm
And here is their report on the NYT


Don't know anything about the organization, but I do know what I hear from those two news outlets.  NYT and National Enquirer seem to be about even in reliability.  And, I forgot to add Huffington Post & Yahoo News to my list of propanda outlets.  To some extent I use National Public Radio as a news source, but lately even they have become highly biased in political coverage, although they seem to make at least an occasional effort to give all the information.  There is no longer any source of information that can be trusted to be giving you the straight story.  No outlet has informing you as their goal; all of them are instead now trying to persuade you.  Over the past few years at times I've thought the media was trying to provoke us into civil war with their needless divisiveness.   It's only going to get worse.  A few months ago I heard a TED Talk(I think it was) about a new computer program that can literally put words into people's mouths.  The software listens to about 10 minutes of a person's speech right down to lip syncing and matching voice inflections,  then someone can use that to make a video that appears to have anyone (they used an innocuous statement by George Bush) say anything they want.  It's just a matter of time until MSNBC or CNN starts using those deceptions, although I think it would start with something like Huffington Post.  There no longer is any outlet that you can completely trust. 

It's a dismal gray day, perfect for photography!  Ice-out has begun on a small local river.  Huge chunks of ice have piled and stacked themselves haphazardly on the banks.  Time to gather my Chamonix 4x5, my c1912 Dagor wide angle lens, crampons, tripod, and head out there! :)


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 18, 2018, 01:56:55 pm
Kent's the only one accomplishing anything here
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Chris Kern on March 18, 2018, 01:58:14 pm
Whatever you may think of the quality of the news coverage in the New York Times, they seem to take photography quite seriously.  At the time that I'm posting this, the paper is advertising three different photo editor jobs and soliciting applications for a new photo director (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/News/job/New-York-NY/Photo-Director_REQ-002659).
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 01:58:19 pm
There no longer is any outlet that you can completely trust.
Totally agree, so read many (from all directions) and then draw your own conclusion. 

Have fun shooting, did the same here today, light is gone by now.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 18, 2018, 02:02:36 pm
Kent's the only one accomplishing anything here
Depends how you see the objective of these threads: See here how I (and Slobodan) see these threads (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123687.msg1032883#msg1032883).

Life is beautiful, how many pictures did you take today ;)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Alan Klein on March 18, 2018, 06:34:51 pm
Depends how you see the objective of these threads: See here how I (and Slobodan) see these threads (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=123687.msg1032883#msg1032883).

Life is beautiful, how many pictures did you take today ;)
Well over a great Italian dish with my wife, I took some of her to test max auto ISO and min shutter speed controls on my camera.  Preparing for our next trip to the Southwest national parks.  Monument Valley, Arches, Canyonlands, Capitol Reef, Grand Staircase Escalante, Bryce, Zion and Grand Canyon with rest and recreation breaks in Sedona, Arizona and Santa Fe, New Mexico. 
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: Farmer on March 18, 2018, 08:17:10 pm
Kent's the only one accomplishing anything here

Irony is.
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: pegelli on March 19, 2018, 03:38:43 am
Well over a great Italian dish with my wife, I took some of her to test max auto ISO and min shutter speed controls on my camera.  Preparing for our next trip to the Southwest national parks.  Monument Valley, Arches, Canyonlands, Capitol Reef, Grand Staircase Escalante, Bryce, Zion and Grand Canyon with rest and recreation breaks in Sedona, Arizona and Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Great, have fun on your trip, much better than all the discussions here ;)
Title: Re: Tillerson out?
Post by: 32BT on March 19, 2018, 03:42:28 am
I'm going to lock the thread. I think i learned what i wanted to know and rather like it when it ends on a positive note. Thanks for keeping it informative and decent.