Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: chilehead on September 26, 2006, 08:37:09 am

Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: chilehead on September 26, 2006, 08:37:09 am
Way to go Michael!  You've one-upped everyone with your video report!

http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/hp-visit.shtml (http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/hp-visit.shtml)

Thanks for giving us an insider's view.

(So I guess Michael will be selling a few more of his printers, eh?)

-Mark
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on September 26, 2006, 09:03:37 am
Quote
Way to go Michael!  You've one-upped everyone with your video report!

http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/hp-visit.shtml (http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/hp-visit.shtml)

Thanks for giving us an insider's view.

(So I guess Michael will be selling a few more of his printers, eh?)

-Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes great. Also a chance to see who Michael is!
Which I knew how to make great films and post them !
So now that the news is out, ask away with any questions you have.
I've got one and I'm only beginning to explore it's potential. One thing is sure , our insistance that colour management be made easy is truly met. I have made a few hand done profiles and see that the days are numbered as it is so sweet just to press Intstall and profile , walk away, and it's done with zero user intervention.  Bravo HP!
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on September 26, 2006, 11:33:44 am
These printers look great, HOWEVER, I was just told by someone at  HP that the STREET price for the 24" Z2100 is $3395 and the Z3100 is$4095!

A big jump in price from the $1300 DJ130.

here is the text:  

you: Also, do know about when they will be available to purchase?
Elizabeth: I just got the printer pricing.
Elizabeth: It is $3395.
Elizabeth: I do not have the ink cartridge price yet.
you: Is that list price or expected street price? Also, do you have a price for the Z2100?
Elizabeth: That is the X2100 24" price.
Elizabeth: That is the street price.
you: That is street price in US dollars, right?
Elizabeth: Correct.
you: Also, you said X2100; are you referring to the Z2100?
Elizabeth: yes i am.
Elizabeth: typo on my part
you: Do you have the price for the Z3100 yet?
Elizabeth: Sure, it is 4095 for the 24" model.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on September 26, 2006, 12:23:00 pm
They are not in the same league and thus cannot be compared. If you buy an i1 spectro, UV, and use the application with it that alone costs quite a bit.
These come with solid stands, a lot of high end technology with other optics, better feed roller stepper motors etc.

Time will tell if there will be a 17" and or 24" Photosmart that is or are an answer to Epsons announcement yesterday of a prosumer level 17".
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Tim Ernst on September 26, 2006, 02:39:07 pm
Neil:

Any way to load cut sheets other than ONE AT A TIME? That is a pain in the butt with the big Epsons, yet so great on the DJ 130. Also, is the roll-loading easy on these new printers as opposed to the DJ 130, which often takes me five minutes of tries every time? Looks like a giant step in the right direction for HP.

And, of course, how does the print quality stack up to the DJ130?

Thanks for all of your great info...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
www.Cloudland.net
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: elauq on September 26, 2006, 04:31:31 pm
Neil:

What's your impression of the resolution of this new 12-ink printer compared with the latest Canon printers?  You'd probably need a loupe to tell the difference between printers.  How fine a droplet does HP put down?  Natural looking screening algorthims used?
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on September 26, 2006, 04:41:31 pm
Quote
Neil:

Any way to load cut sheets other than ONE AT A TIME? That is a pain in the butt with the big Epsons, yet so great on the DJ 130. Also, is the roll-loading easy on these new printers as opposed to the DJ 130, which often takes me five minutes of tries every time? Looks like a giant step in the right direction for HP.

And, of course, how does the print quality stack up to the DJ130?

Thanks for all of your great info...

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good questions.
I do know why they didn't put a tray in and it didn't make me happy. No, it's manual sheet fed or roll. Luckily for sheets the 9180 takes care of the A3+ proofing side for most users which frees up the 24, 44" printers and beyond to do what they are made for.
The way it works is you push the media in, it grabs it , sends it forward (sheet or roll) then measures it up and checks front to back alignment. If it's not square it beeps then you simply open up the huge slot machine lever and set it to a dotted line. Takes two seconds and is done.
Behind the scene is a limited motor assisted auto align which is why you'd have to be way out before it couldn't set it right.
A bit archaic but practical and effortless. The 130 is very finicky for those who don't have the feel for when it's right. This printer absolutely anyone can load , and do so quickly.
Print quality isn't yet locked down. I'm doing my best to make sure certain things are redone before the software/firmware are frozen.
The Gloss Enhancer is really beautiful. Never seen better, it would be hard to get better than this. Looking at an Epson 7800 print and the GE Z3100 of my image on glossy shows you why it changes everything. Even though people feel the K3 is acceptable for glossy , it is the HP that makes the Epson look wrong in comparison.
Color gamut is also a thing linked to software in progress.
It is larger than K3 as expected in most areas, only in some areas compared to Canon, but the shock is Epson still has both beat in Chroma depth. The profiles on Glossy and satin media are excellent so if you have a Bill Atkinson profile print of an average scene, same for a Canon , same for HP you wouldn't tell them apart for most images as far as colour goes. What I do like about HP and Epson is the prints have a photographic look, advantage going to HP in this way. Epson has such a fin pitch that it can look quite plastic as it is sometimes too fine to be photographic in an analogue way.
The switching between B&W, matte, colour is flawless and efficient.
The beauty pictures are the best in their class with GE. Matte B&W is nice but there are some things to make it better which is certainly why I'm here to help make things meet.
For proofing and illustration it is a wonderful printer. It makes easy work of Pantones like it was a dye printer. I was just playing about in the B&W bi-toning or tri if you like as you have three controls highlight mid and shadow color wheels to tone and or split tone your prints . This is as little or as much tone as you like.
It is a sharp printer but not so sharp that you risk screening artifacts. So the 130 is smoother but the new HP's (especially the 9180) will produce a tad more detail.

Much more later....
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: haefnerphoto on September 26, 2006, 07:16:54 pm
Quote
Good questions.
I do know why they didn't put a tray in and it didn't make me happy. No, it's manual sheet fed or roll. Luckily for sheets the 9180 takes care of the A3+ proofing side for most users which frees up the 24, 44" printers and beyond to do what they are made for.
The way it works is you push the media in, it grabs it , sends it forward (sheet or roll) then measures it up and checks front to back alignment. If it's not square it beeps then you simply open up the huge slot machine lever and set it to a dotted line. Takes two seconds and is done.
Behind the scene is a limited motor assisted auto align which is why you'd have to be way out before it couldn't set it right.
A bit archaic but practical and effortless. The 130 is very finicky for those who don't have the feel for when it's right. This printer absolutely anyone can load , and do so quickly.
Print quality isn't yet locked down. I'm doing my best to make sure certain things are redone before the software/firmware are frozen.
The Gloss Enhancer is really beautiful. Never seen better, it would be hard to get better than this. Looking at an Epson 7800 print and the GE Z3100 of my image on glossy shows you why it changes everything. Even though people feel the K3 is acceptable for glossy , it is the HP that makes the Epson look wrong in comparison.
Color gamut is also a thing linked to software in progress.
It is larger than K3 as expected in most areas, only in some areas compared to Canon, but the shock is Epson still has both beat in Chroma depth. The profiles on Glossy and satin media are excellent so if you have a Bill Atkinson profile print of an average scene, same for a Canon , same for HP you wouldn't tell them apart for most images as far as colour goes. What I do like about HP and Epson is the prints have a photographic look, advantage going to HP in this way. Epson has such a fin pitch that it can look quite plastic as it is sometimes too fine to be photographic in an analogue way.
The switching between B&W, matte, colour is flawless and efficient.
The beauty pictures are the best in their class with GE. Matte B&W is nice but there are some things to make it better which is certainly why I'm here to help make things meet.
For proofing and illustration it is a wonderful printer. It makes easy work of Pantones like it was a dye printer. I was just playing about in the B&W bi-toning or tri if you like as you have three controls highlight mid and shadow color wheels to tone and or split tone your prints . This is as little or as much tone as you like.
It is a sharp printer but not so sharp that you risk screening artifacts. So the 130 is smoother but the new HP's (especially the 9180) will produce a tad more detail.

Much more later....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: haefnerphoto on September 26, 2006, 07:23:31 pm
Neil, I currently use the Canon 9900 which out puts a print very quickly.  Is the Z3100 24" product quick also?  Will you be able to utilize smaller rolls such as 8.5" and 13" sizes?  Are you impressed with it's ability to print subtle gradations?  Thanks, Jim Haefner
Quote
Good questions.
I do know why they didn't put a tray in and it didn't make me happy. No, it's manual sheet fed or roll. Luckily for sheets the 9180 takes care of the A3+ proofing side for most users which frees up the 24, 44" printers and beyond to do what they are made for.
The way it works is you push the media in, it grabs it , sends it forward (sheet or roll) then measures it up and checks front to back alignment. If it's not square it beeps then you simply open up the huge slot machine lever and set it to a dotted line. Takes two seconds and is done.
Behind the scene is a limited motor assisted auto align which is why you'd have to be way out before it couldn't set it right.
A bit archaic but practical and effortless. The 130 is very finicky for those who don't have the feel for when it's right. This printer absolutely anyone can load , and do so quickly.
Print quality isn't yet locked down. I'm doing my best to make sure certain things are redone before the software/firmware are frozen.
The Gloss Enhancer is really beautiful. Never seen better, it would be hard to get better than this. Looking at an Epson 7800 print and the GE Z3100 of my image on glossy shows you why it changes everything. Even though people feel the K3 is acceptable for glossy , it is the HP that makes the Epson look wrong in comparison.
Color gamut is also a thing linked to software in progress.
It is larger than K3 as expected in most areas, only in some areas compared to Canon, but the shock is Epson still has both beat in Chroma depth. The profiles on Glossy and satin media are excellent so if you have a Bill Atkinson profile print of an average scene, same for a Canon , same for HP you wouldn't tell them apart for most images as far as colour goes. What I do like about HP and Epson is the prints have a photographic look, advantage going to HP in this way. Epson has such a fin pitch that it can look quite plastic as it is sometimes too fine to be photographic in an analogue way.
The switching between B&W, matte, colour is flawless and efficient.
The beauty pictures are the best in their class with GE. Matte B&W is nice but there are some things to make it better which is certainly why I'm here to help make things meet.
For proofing and illustration it is a wonderful printer. It makes easy work of Pantones like it was a dye printer. I was just playing about in the B&W bi-toning or tri if you like as you have three controls highlight mid and shadow color wheels to tone and or split tone your prints . This is as little or as much tone as you like.
It is a sharp printer but not so sharp that you risk screening artifacts. So the 130 is smoother but the new HP's (especially the 9180) will produce a tad more detail.

Much more later....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ericaro on September 26, 2006, 07:55:29 pm
Neil
        I understand that  gloss diff and bronzing are under control with the Z printers but what about metamerism? Did you see any?
                                      Louis Bouillon
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: andythom68 on September 27, 2006, 10:28:47 am
Quote
These printers look great, HOWEVER, I was just told by someone at  HP that the STREET price for the 24" Z2100 is $3395 and the Z3100 is$4095!

A big jump in price from the $1300 DJ130.

here is the text: 

you: Also, do know about when they will be available to purchase?
Elizabeth: I just got the printer pricing.
Elizabeth: It is $3395.
Elizabeth: I do not have the ink cartridge price yet.
you: Is that list price or expected street price? Also, do you have a price for the Z2100?
Elizabeth: That is the X2100 24" price.
Elizabeth: That is the street price.
you: That is street price in US dollars, right?
Elizabeth: Correct.
you: Also, you said X2100; are you referring to the Z2100?
Elizabeth: yes i am.
Elizabeth: typo on my part
you: Do you have the price for the Z3100 yet?
Elizabeth: Sure, it is 4095 for the 24" model.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Are there prices for the 44inch versions?
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Nill Toulme on September 27, 2006, 11:34:55 am
~deleted~

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net (http://www.toulme.net)
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on September 27, 2006, 12:17:35 pm
Quote
Are there prices for the 44inch versions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77979\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Those prices are for the 24" models. I did not inquire about the larger ones.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on September 27, 2006, 05:17:01 pm
One of the things I'd love to know about is whether we can expect the heads to clog less often than, say, the epson 7800. One reason I have been hesitant to get that printer is that the thing seems to always needs to be cleaned. And even at that the cleanings do not always work, and the process needs to be repeated.

Also, which printer do you have Neil, the 2100 or the 3100? Thanks.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: pobrien3 on September 27, 2006, 11:30:40 pm
THIS looks like what I've been waiting for!  Before I write a cheque though I'd like to see the printer in action and put some of my own images through it, so I'll be hounding the Hong Kong HP distributor immediately.

I have never felt the 'pro' Epsons to be acceptable for glossy, and that includes the K3 printers.  I always thought the glossing cartridge to be a great idea (so many people manually spray their prints - better if the printer does it!) and am astonished that Epson stopped using it at the R1800 - bravo HP!

The inclusion of the photospectrometer though, to me, is a double-edged thing.  Normally I would not have been in the market for such a device, as I would have profiles made by professionals as and when I need them.  I don't expect to be profiling on a regular basis, so the addition of this to the cost might be a negative.  That said though, if the images it produces and the ease of use are up to par, I'll get the printer.

May I ask, Neil - which model / size do you have?
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on September 28, 2006, 06:17:25 am
Post removed
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: pobrien3 on September 28, 2006, 07:27:22 am
Quote
...For starters they have spent 5 years developing the unit to a tune of $3.5 billion US investment...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm still reading and digesting the rest of your post, but this seems like a major investment for which I can't easily see the economics.  Assuming HP's margin is 50%, and allowing for just 25% for the retailer, then they'll need to sell almost two and a half million units just to recover R&D.

Given the expected lifecycle of such products of approximately 2-3 years, especially as they could expect Canon and Epson to respond quickly, is the market big enough to warrant such an investment?

I read somewhere that the total expected volume of DSLR sales by 2008 will be 8 million.  Are we saying that over a quarter of DSLR buyers will be in this market??
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: pobrien3 on September 28, 2006, 07:52:21 am
Quote
...And this is where the most interesting part begins. We've known for some time now that on the Epsons when it comes printing areas of highlights or white in the print, we get this glare effect on the print. Well not any longer on the HP. To combat this issue, the unit comes with a 'clear ink'. This is used on areas of white in the print especially on glossy papers, to reduce the effects of this issue.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Assuming by 'this glare effect' you're referring to gloss differential, are you suggesting that the 'clear ink' is only used on highlights and whites in the image?  Unless this is extremely cleverly done (as ink isn't laid down in a binary fashion), I can see this being potentially problematic.  Isn't the gloss being laid uniformly across the image?

Forgive me as we haven't got to know you yet - what is your background that gave you early access to HP development?

Peter
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on September 28, 2006, 08:38:02 am
Post removed
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: chilehead on September 28, 2006, 08:59:23 am
Re: Ink recycling.  It sounds as if these printers must use some sort of "intermediate" tank between the cartridge and the printhead to hold the ink.

I believe this system has been used on HP printers before this--but is it reliable?

-Mark
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: pobrien3 on September 28, 2006, 11:53:33 am
Quote
I wouldn't be too worried about that. Have you seen the size of just their reception offices? If you haven't it certainly puts a lot of retail stores to shame.

HP has a lot of resources at their disposal and they clearly know how to use it. But I do think they have been very shrewd this time round with the investment. We may think $3.5 billion is a big number (and it is a big number) but in comparison to their overall company sales and turnover (some $90 billion USD last year), its a very small sum.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would most certainly be worried about that (and I confess I'm not clear about the role of the reception offices!). ANY product or product line has to justify its investment - you can't simply 'lose' it in the big numbers.  No company, certainly not a global corporation like HP, would stay in business long with such a wooly approach to R&D.

Of the $90bn turnover HP made last year, about $25bn of that was by the Imaging and Printing group, but I can see where your confusion around the R&D spend arises.  The TOTAL the company spent on R&D across ALL product lines (bear in mind that imaging and printing is only about 28% of total turnover) was $3.4bn - that wasn't all spent on developing the Z printers.  Spend for this year so far, according to their SEC filings, is tracking at a similar level, slightly down on the previous year.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on September 28, 2006, 02:04:51 pm
Post removed
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on September 28, 2006, 02:09:04 pm
Post removed
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on September 28, 2006, 04:08:39 pm
Post removed
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Brian Gilkes on September 28, 2006, 06:21:26 pm
Jason,
Welcome to this forum. Don't go away. Your contribution ,I'm sure will be valued by many . To date forums for those seriously into fine art digital printing has been very limited.
Back onto topic;  the HP Z printers look very interesting indeed. I was thinking of getting another Epson 9800, but am holding now until the flak settles.  Epson will need to pull out a few rabbits very fast if the HPs are as good as they look like. Can you report any downers? What about "depth" that Neil mentioned?
Cheers and thanks,
Brian
Pharos Editions
www.pharoseditions.com.au
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: pobrien3 on September 28, 2006, 07:51:04 pm
Jason, thank you for the comprehensive reply! Peter
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Kenneth Sky on September 28, 2006, 09:13:57 pm
Jason
If you've had all 3 printers do the same file, why not submit an article to Michael for peer review and publishing on this site? It would make a great contribution to a debate that is sure to be sparked when these printers start getting shipped in quantity.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: andythom68 on September 29, 2006, 04:18:19 am
Hi,

There is a "first impressions" review of the "Z" printers on: http://imagingbuffet.com/ (http://imagingbuffet.com/)

This site also lists the prices MSRP as:-

     Z2100-24: $3,395
     Z2100-44: $5,595

     Z3100-24: $4,095
     Z3100-44: $6,295


The prices for the 24inch versions match those given by Ronno earlier.


Andy  :-)
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on September 29, 2006, 05:51:51 am
Post removed
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on September 29, 2006, 07:27:21 am
Post removed
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 29, 2006, 10:46:37 am
Quote
I'm still reading and digesting the rest of your post, but this seems like a major investment for which I can't easily see the economics.  Assuming HP's margin is 50%, and allowing for just 25% for the retailer, then they'll need to sell almost two and a half million units just to recover R&D.

Given the expected lifecycle of such products of approximately 2-3 years, especially as they could expect Canon and Epson to respond quickly, is the market big enough to warrant such an investment?

I read somewhere that the total expected volume of DSLR sales by 2008 will be 8 million.  Are we saying that over a quarter of DSLR buyers will be in this market??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78099\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Peter,

It's not a good idea to second-guess a whole corporate investment department of a company of this size and sophistication with simplistic calculations like this. Firstly, you don't know what they really spent on R&D for developing this technology, secondly you don't have access to their intelligence on the potential size of the market world-wide for both the hardware and the resulting sales of consumables, thirdly you don't know what it will cost them to manufacture and market the machines and fourth you can't assume that this R&D expenditure is to be amortized over one set of printers. HP is clearly in this for the long haul and in these situations the front-end commitment of R&D will have a very long carry-forward (along with smaller incremental expenditures model by model) over many models to come. They're not stupid, eventhough they may have gotten their knickers in a twist about some corporate espionage - but that's another talk show - and they'll most likely make enough money from all this hardware and related consumables to pay their lawyers for extracting them from that stuff as well.

Jason,

Thanks ever so much for providing all this information. As production models appear and you begin to integrate them into your studio's workflow it will be extremely interesting to have your observations on their comparative print quality.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on September 29, 2006, 11:17:31 am
I guess I don't really care about how much R&D $$ went into these, as long as they work well.

In any case, sample prints can be ordered here:
http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/fe...?pageseq=388277 (http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/features/z2100-z3100/index.html?pageseq=388277)
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on September 29, 2006, 11:39:36 am
Quote
I guess I don't really care about how much R&D $$ went into these, as long as they work well.

In any case, sample prints can be ordered here:
http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/fe...?pageseq=388277 (http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/features/z2100-z3100/index.html?pageseq=388277)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ronno, I guess being a professional economist I find the economics of this technological revolution we are experiencing just as interesting as the outcomes, but we will clearly be more expert on the latter than the former, because we can see the prints but we'll never get into the corporate boardroom.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on September 30, 2006, 01:34:32 pm
The other  Vivera inks are dye, the Z and 9180 are pigments.

On printer gamut and depth. It's fairly easy to compare the Canon to the Z and the Epson K3 printers. I have no access to the next gen Epson so that is where I stand.

The K3 as expected doesn't reach out as far as the Canon or HP as it is a CMYK printer.

What is surprising is the K3 has quite good colour depth compared to HP or Canon.  

The gamut on HP and Canon live in the upper areas very bright and very saturated considering they're pigments.

The HP is bigger in some areas, the Canon in another. Attention: the effects of having this larger gamut in the chosen areas will cost you a lot more than the colour gain in lightfast years. Also as Mark McCormick said on Dpreview catalytic degradation on these extra inks is not taken into account in the current WIR testing yet is something to be cautioned.

So the more we know about gamut, stability and permanence the better. HP made very deliberate decision to favour permanence over loss of fade resistance. You could say all the pigments are lighhtfast enough for museum. But give me a large gamut printer with extraordinary lightfastness and I can easily understand the intention of these printers.

The other thing that has to be seen is the Gloss Enhancer. When laying a 7800 print beside the Z3100 with GE it makes the gloss differential look cheap. The Z 's GE just simply works. It is either eco mode or whole page. Eco mode covers the solid and composites that cause gloss differential. The culprit in HP's inkset is lGrey, but could be different on Canon ( quite bad gloss dif. on satin and glossy IMO) although the Epson is tamed quite a bit compared to the Z or Canon when NOT using GE.

Ask away, whatever you like. If I can answer I will. I don't think there should be reviews yet as there are only protos here and there and a review of a proto....hmmm  isn't correct to do.


Oh BTW I have run many papers through the Z . In that way it's a lot of fun> you add a custom media, calibrate it , then profile. HAve a break and it's ready to print calibrated and profiled, all menus populated with your favourite media. Nothin' like it.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: eronald on October 01, 2006, 06:02:42 am
I saw samples from these printers at Photokina, and listened to the gentleman  from HP at the Xrite conference.

The printers look like the solid stuff which is employed by reprography shops all over the world. They're workhorses.

Print quality looked very good. But it won't bowl you over the way prints from the cheap dye-based Canon office all-in-ones bowl you over. Maybe it's not an apple to apple comparison, but Lambda (silver-based) and Dye-based inkjet will still outgun pigment for some  time.

On the other hand the spectro inside the printer is a definite win; it means transparent color management. It also means that the printer is always properly linearised which makes a great difference to print quality on thrid-pary papers.

It looks like HP has scored a definite win on points in this round, but it's not a knockout. Canon may be unhappier than Epson here though.

Edmund
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Brian Gilkes on October 01, 2006, 05:50:19 pm
Edmund, I have not (yet) got ColorThink pro here , but my understanding is that the epson K3 inkset has a gamut beyond that of chemical dye processeseg Lambda, Pegasus, Chromira on Crystal Archive or Endura.
If someone  could post the 3D gamut charts to set us straight that would be great.
  Similar charts for the 2 Vivera pigment arrangements  and for the new Canons would bring things up to date.
If someone undertook this exercise, I'm sure comparative DMax readings , including for black and white settings and both gloss photo paper and art matte, like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on October 01, 2006, 06:10:36 pm
Does the inclusion of the Spectro and what not mean that this thing will not need a $1500 RIP like the Epsons do?
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: eronald on October 01, 2006, 06:29:10 pm
Quote
Edmund, I have not (yet) got ColorThink pro here , but my understanding is that the epson K3 inkset has a gamut beyond that of chemical dye processeseg Lambda, Pegasus, Chromira on Crystal Archive or Endura.
If someone  could post the 3D gamut charts to set us straight that would be great.
  Similar charts for the 2 Vivera pigment arrangements  and for the new Canons would bring things up to date.
If someone undertook this exercise, I'm sure comparative DMax readings , including for black and white settings and both gloss photo paper and art matte, like Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78661\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If Neil and others can post profiles for the new HP or Canon printers, then I am sure we can grab some typical Epson profiles off the net - every Mac has a 3D utility (Colorsync utility) to display profiles built in.

Of course Steve Upton would say that Colorthink is far better; guess what ? I agree, but it ain't free.

Edmund
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Jon Shiu on October 01, 2006, 10:46:40 pm
Quote
If Neil and others can post profiles for the new HP or Canon printers, then I am sure we can grab some typical Epson profiles off the net - every Mac has a 3D utility (Colorsync utility) to display profiles built in.

Of course Steve Upton would say that Colorthink is far better; guess what ? I agree, but it ain't free.

Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=78665\")
Hi, gamut plots for the Epson 3800 are available on their website (large pdf):

[a href=\"http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/079/724/SP3800SRG_1aE.pdf]http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/079/...3800SRG_1aE.pdf[/url]

Jon
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 02, 2006, 04:52:28 am
The 3800 is a K3 printer. Ink formulation being equal, unless something is quit different in the driver the near same colour characteristics should be achieved.
I am not at the liberty to send profiles for a prototype printer. When it is nearing completion with the permission of HP then I could but not before.
That said at this point it's closer to Canon 12 color printers than to Epson 8 colour printers.
And yes I use Colorthink and spend a lot of time trying to see what is useful , what is not, and application of color maps in terms of photography, illustration, proofing, design, and fine art.

I suggest that custom profiles though are compared as I see exaggerated numbers on all the canned profile measurements. There again unfortunately the profiling applications even in absolute show differences. So much for ICC specifications and guidelines.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 02, 2006, 07:35:49 am
Quote
The 3800 is a K3 printer. Ink formulation being equal, unless something is quit different in the driver the near same colour characteristics should be achieved.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Epson advertises new screening technology. They also advertise new micro-Piezo head technology. Perhaps these changes will get more gamut from the same inkset? We won't really know what the colour characteristics or tonal gradation properties are until knowledgeable users test them properly.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 03, 2006, 03:09:17 am
Quote
Epson advertises new screening technology. They also advertise new micro-Piezo head technology. Perhaps these changes will get more gamut from the same inkset? We won't really know what the colour characteristics or tonal gradation properties are until knowledgeable users test them properly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's as I said, the driver can change gamut but it's not like the last printers were far off from optimising the gamut already. Finer pitch doesn't really increase gamut, often the opposite.
I'm bothered by the images Epson post about the new dithering compared to the old. It makes one think that the old 4800 is coarse and not that good. I can't believe this. Since the drop volume remains the same on the highest photo modes can there be this much difference? If there is then they are sending out a message that every user should wait to upgrade to this new head etc.

Furthermore, why can't Epson make printers a little less redundant? Why don't they offer these heads as user replaceable parts, then have users upgrade their own printers?

I suppose there will still be a lot of very interesting possibilities with HP compared to others that you will see over time.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 03, 2006, 10:20:28 am
Quote
It's as I said, the driver can change gamut but it's not like the last printers were far off from optimising the gamut already. Finer pitch doesn't really increase gamut, often the opposite.

I'm bothered by the images Epson post about the new dithering compared to the old. It makes one think that the old 4800 is coarse and not that good. I can't believe this. ............. Furthermore, why can't Epson make printers a little less redundant? Why don't they offer these heads as user replaceable parts, then have users upgrade their own printers?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil, several points:

(1) I use an Epson 4800 which I intend to replace soon because the media switching business is a crippling constraint. While its image quality is superb, I think there is definitely room for gamut improvement especially for red and green.

(2) You are correct - prints from the Epson 4800 are not coarse at all - in fact very smooth to the naked eye; but under a loupe anything can be better, and when a company brings out a new product they will always hype it up relative to the previous model so they can induce people to "up-grade", which gets to your next point. (I'm not condoning it, I'm just reporting on reality.)

(3) On an Epson printer the head is about 80% of the cost of the machine, and the cost of supporting consumers doing their own switching would probably consume the next 20%, so this is not a technology conducive to what you are suggesting. This is the one heart-break of up-grading these machines. I wish they had some kind of recycling program for older models - to get them into the hands of people who can't afford the new ones (of course we have eBay for that but not all potential users can access eBay or know how to use it), or dismantle them for parts and materials - because as costly as such programs would be to administer, it is just a terrible shame to see these things trashed.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: chilehead on October 03, 2006, 11:20:00 am
Quote
I wish they had some kind of recycling program for older models - to get them into the hands of people who can't afford the new ones (of course we have eBay for that but not all potential users can access eBay or know how to use it), or dismantle them for parts and materials - because as costly as such programs would be to administer, it is just a terrible shame to see these things trashed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are a few trade up programs out there.  HP has offered this on their large-format printers, and I think that Canon may offer it too, (though perhaps that was via a retailer).

A Google search for "HP printer trade up" will provide some links.  Just replace the "HP" with Epson or Canon and repeat for more info.

-Mark
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on October 03, 2006, 05:55:49 pm
Quote
There are a few trade up programs out there.  HP has offered this on their large-format printers, and I think that Canon may offer it too, (though perhaps that was via a retailer).

A Google search for "HP printer trade up" will provide some links.  Just replace the "HP" with Epson or Canon and repeat for more info.

-Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Talking of which, Epson UK has just today announced a Loyalty Upgrade scheme for users of Epson and non-Epson machines. Depending on the model to be upgraded from, discounts of up to £700 have been announced on the K3 models.

That much said, someone said this to me today which does ring very true. It does seem that on print, Epson K3 still has the edge on the depth of the print. We have to consider that for HP, their new Z series is a great first try, but they are using 12 inks to achieve what Epson has done with 8. On top of this, having worked with engineers from Epson for this long, they do deserve some kudos for helping many of us out. There's been many a time I've contacted Epson on queries and their staff sorted me straight out. If this doesn't deserve a mention, I don't know what will. Whether or not HP can match this level of service remains to be seen. Just because HP has a call centre and support knowledge base set up for the new printers doesn't mean the problem can easily be rectified, because their staff will have a steep learning curve to start from.

Jason
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 03, 2006, 06:39:13 pm
Jason, technically what does "depth of the print" mean? Is it more d-max? Is it wider gamut/superior saturation? Is it smoother tonal transitions? Is it finer screening/dithering?

As for an up-grade program - I'd love to see such a thing announced by Epson Canada.    But wheher I go for it still depends on a careful OPERATIONAL evaluation of the 3800 versus the new HP models. Once you buy the printer you live with it - so the merits of any front-end inducement need to be considered in an operational context. It's a bit like marriage, except it's (usually) easier to get rid of a printer you don't like than.............well, you get the picture...
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: elauq on October 03, 2006, 07:13:24 pm
Edmund wrote of his first-hand impressions of the new HP printer output:

"Print quality looked very good. But it won't bowl you over the way prints from the cheap dye-based Canon office all-in-ones bowl you over. Maybe it's not an apple to apple comparison, but Lambda (silver-based) and Dye-based inkjet will still outgun pigment for some  time."


Intriguing observation Edmund.  Sort of like the conclusions from the recent article on this website "Reflections on Recent Digital Paper Offerings" by Lohmann when he says, in talking about the latest greatest papers "Unless paper quality improves someday soon we may find that the age of traditional photography will have passed, and we are left to print on papers that look like white Naugahyde vinyl."

We know that pigments on matte paper have a look unto their own and are artistcally working for certain images.  What do you think is missing from these HP prints that they can't stand up to dye prints or Lightjet/Lambda prints?  What can one do with vinyl-like papers and hopeful pigment inkjet technology other than discuss longevity, user-friendly color management procedures, high dmax numbers, and pretty gamut graphs?
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: mike_botelho on October 04, 2006, 03:44:07 am
Quote
It is larger than K3 as expected in most areas, only in some areas compared to Canon, but the shock is Epson still has both beat in Chroma depth.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil,

You mention that the Epson K3 inks still have the edge in 'chroma depth'.  At the risk of sounding ignorant, could you please explain specifically what this means.  I think I know what you are referring to, but since we are using words to describe a visual characteristic, I thought I'd ask just to make sure that I am visualizing the specific type of difference you are describing.

Thanks,

Mike
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 04, 2006, 05:06:22 am
Quote
Neil,

You mention that the Epson K3 inks still have the edge in 'chroma depth'.  At the risk of sounding ignorant, could you please explain specifically what this means.  I think I know what you are referring to, but since we are using words to describe a visual characteristic, I thought I'd ask just to make sure that I am visualizing the specific type of difference you are describing.

Thanks,

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79027\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The depth is how much colour is in the shadows. Epson retain a lot of colour considering they are pigments (the HP dyes are so rich pigments don't even get close) . These are areas that maintain graduations into the shadows, but not necessarily affect contrast. The blacks on all three Canon, HP, and Epson are around the same. So it is the amount of colour in the darkest region that you'll see the colour depth.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: yannb on October 04, 2006, 03:38:59 pm
Hello Neil,

I was at the Dubai HP event where the new Z series were presented to dealers and distributors from the EMEA area. A question that didn't get answered there was about the built-in spectro, based on i1 technology.

- As I understood it, this spectro's lightsource was not the same as the regular i1 (without uv cutoff filter). Do you know what kind it is?
- How different will the measurements of a profiling chart be compared to the normal i1?
- Is it measuring with white backing or black backing?
- Do you know why the colour patches on the charts need to be so large? At the GMG booth they had Fogra media wedges on their contract proofs (which they could read automatically of course) that were about 30cm wide! Give that contract proof to a customer, and he will need to measure the strip patch by patch instead of using the i1 ruler.


Regards,
Yann
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 05, 2006, 07:06:55 am
That much said, someone said this to me today which does ring very true. It does seem that on print, Epson K3 still has the edge on the depth of the print. We have to consider that for HP, their new Z series is a great first try, but they are using 12 inks to achieve what Epson has done with 8. On top of this, having worked with engineers from Epson for this long, they do deserve some kudos for helping many of us out. There's been many a time I've contacted Epson on queries and their staff sorted me straight out. If this doesn't deserve a mention, I don't know what will. Whether or not HP can match this level of service remains to be seen. Just because HP has a call centre and support knowledge base set up for the new printers doesn't mean the problem can easily be rectified, because their staff will have a steep learning curve to start from.

Jason
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]

No this is not correct. The Epson has excellent colour depth for pigments. Yet don't be misled, both the Canon and HP have a lot more gamut, and brightness than K3 inksets. Now with the next Epson 120 colour inkset you might be right , have your cake and eat it too.

I'll say it again, the HP has a wonderful gamut in the bright saturated that leaves the current K3 far far behind. And that is with double the lightfastness to boot, and more than that on canvas non glass mounted. If it weren't for Canon and HP's addition of extended inksets Epson could have sat still for years to come. Lucky for Epson users , pressure from these two will correct things like the ink cart swapping scandal. Now it's unlikely they will tell you to accept anything because they have great image quality, but will have to shape up or acknowledge users leaving their stronghold.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 05, 2006, 08:57:12 am
Quote
.......... both the Canon and HP have a lot more gamut, and brightness than K3 inksets. Now with the next Epson 120 colour inkset you might be right , have your cake and eat it too.

I'll say it again, the HP has a wonderful gamut in the bright saturated that leaves the current K3 far far behind. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil, this is an interesting comment, because the published evidence of gamut plots that I've seen to date do not seem to bear it out quite so decisively. Comparing K3 with Canon IPF5000, the gamut shapes are different, the Epson being wider in the light yellows, blues and reds and the Canon wider for everything else (cf. Michael Reichmann's review of the Canon IPF5000).

Here is what Michael Reichmann said in his product review of the HP B9180:

<<In this comparison what we see is that the HP has a slightly wider gamut than the Epson in the greens and magentas. The HP and the Epson are closer in their gamuts than are the HP and the Canon, but then this is to be expected when comparing 8 ink vs 12 ink printers.

Looking at a range of actual prints, on glossy paper as well as matte, most observers and I agree that there isn't a huge difference between Epson, Canon or HP prints when custom profiles are used with the same papers. One can quibble over small differences, but gamut isn't an area where I would say that any of these printers jumps out ahead of the others in a clearly visible way when printing and viewing a broad range of images. >>

If you have objective information that casts doubt on the validity of this overall assessment it would be very useful for us to see it.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on October 07, 2006, 11:21:01 am
Quote
If you have objective information that casts doubt on the validity of this overall assessment it would be very useful for us to see it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, I am interested in this too. I heard similar praise for the HP Designjet 90 and 130 printers, but never took a liking to the print quality, even though I owned one for a while and tried all manner of paper, RIPs, profiles, etc.

Also, is there any indication that these new HPs will not need $1500 RIPs? That might help off-set the heavy hardware prices a bit...

-ron
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 07, 2006, 03:26:42 pm
Mark the above comments are on the 8 color 9180 or Z 2100 , not the 11 color Z 3100.
I can't send out profiles , nor info yet, other than words. Others shouldn't either. The Z 3100 is still in the making. The inks are final but the software is still going forward. I just tonight loaded another firmware rev. Such is life with Beta testing. Any software or firmware changes render null everything that was done before.
I did describe the 12 ink Z though before in it's gamut projections in Color think from custom profiles from Canon 5000, Epson K3 from Bill, and my custom profiles (printed and measured in my classic i1 off line).
The gamuts of both Canon and HP 12 ink printers are becoming esoteric and the primaries are making what was always difficult to describe in words even that much harder. The Canon gamut is looking very nice in magenta to cyan transitions in and at 50L . Hp has some extensions here and there all in the light and brights especially a green that will keep a landscape   photographer happy. Epson has a better color depth which as you know not the same as Dmax , nor contrast.

Also as you know any print within range of most prints we do any of the three HP, Epson, and Canon will produce a similar looking print. I laid out a bunch on a table yesterday , HP Z 3100, HP 9180, Epson 4800, and Durst (sorry didn't have access to a Canon at the time). All are good, all are sellable, all have excellent fidelity, color matches in control lighting etc. The only way to make the already excellent Epson look a bit worse, would be to use an image out of gamut for the Epson inks , where Canon or HP may be better . One thing that is certain , is the Gloss Enhancer is fantastic.   A bit fragile though so normal print handling precautions apply.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 07, 2006, 03:32:49 pm
Quote
Yes, I am interested in this too. I heard similar praise for the HP Designjet 90 and 130 printers, but never took a liking to the print quality, even though I owned one for a while and tried all manner of paper, RIPs, profiles, etc.

Also, is there any indication that these new HPs will not need $1500 RIPs? That might help off-set the heavy hardware prices a bit...

-ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If you didn't like the look of the DJ a rip wouldn't have changed a thing. I had no problem matching any Durst Lambda print on the DJ without a rip, but some don't like traditional photographic looking prints. Maybe the Z printer in that way is better as it goes way past any photographic color process and is pigment with all it's advantages , and look of other than a print.

Yes there are rip's for the z printers. ImagePrint, Postershop, EFI and what I'll be using for prepress and photo , GMG. These are the optional software rip's. There will even be other options too but I'm not on those paths.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 07, 2006, 03:49:31 pm
Thanks Neil, interesting, but I am not clear on what you mean by "color depth" - is it saturation? Color depth normally refers to the number of bits that describe a color - such as 24 bit having more depth than 18 bit, etc. But this does not apply to printers, it applies to image files. Do you mean the colours look richer?
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on October 07, 2006, 08:22:32 pm
Quote
Yes there are rip's for the z printers. ImagePrint, Postershop, EFI and what I'll be using for prepress and photo , GMG. These are the optional software rip's. There will even be other options too but I'm not on those paths.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would have thought that a printer with its own spectrometer, etc would have negated the need for a RIP when printing photos.

Probably a naive question, but why do these z printers need a RIP?
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 09, 2006, 02:13:03 am
Quote
Thanks Neil, interesting, but I am not clear on what you mean by "color depth" - is it saturation? Color depth normally refers to the number of bits that describe a color - such as 24 bit having more depth than 18 bit, etc. But this does not apply to printers, it applies to image files. Do you mean the colours look richer?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Colour depth is a term we coined from the amount of colour in the shadows. In the Lab gamut plot the bottom of the plot is the darkest point attained. It's not only or always K black the darkest , but the composite and the largeness of the bottom of this cone or potato some call it.
The Dye base HP has density until L1.8 and a very wide colour around this point. Let's say red with a lot of black, but is still measurably red just very dark. That's where Epson K3's are strong. Not the density or contrast of HP dyes but better than HP and Canon in the coloured dark areas. So for example look in a contrasty image for the continuous tone into the shadows, that's where you'll see Epson do well. Both HP and Canon must have found something bothersome , like lightfastness, or gloss uniformity, I don't know, that made them steer away from this in favour of other compromises.
Both the Canon and HP go way beyond in the light saturated colours yet this is something that can change for even better rendering with the Z before release. A big note: most peoples images most of the time will not see any differences in the extended gamut. Only those who had light and bright colours would. I want to stress that these are nice possibilities but only part of the advantages of a printer. In the end most users most of the time would find the Gloss Enhancer something once seen will become the most appreciated feature in the inkset, as it is very welcome on any surface that has some shine.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: alainbriot on October 09, 2006, 03:15:58 am
Quote
I would have thought that a printer with its own spectrometer, etc would have negated the need for a RIP when printing photos. Probably a naive question, but why do these z printers need a RIP?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79495\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A spectrophotometer (either stand alone or built in the printer) allows you to create custom profiles for your printer/ink/paper/lighting combination.  A RIP allows you to print outside of an image processing program.  Besides the fact that a RIP can use your custom profiles, there is no crossover between the two.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 09, 2006, 09:00:52 am
Quote
Colour depth is a term we coined from the amount of colour in the shadows. In the Lab gamut plot the bottom of the plot is the darkest point attained. It's not only or always K black the darkest , but the composite and the largeness of the bottom of this cone or potato some call it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Neil, thanks alot for this clarification. It seems that it could be meaningful, especially for people using matte papers want to preserve dynamics of both colour and luminosity in the lowest quartile of the tone curve.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on October 09, 2006, 10:21:10 am
Quote
  A RIP allows you to print outside of an image processing program.  Besides the fact that a RIP can use your custom profiles, there is no crossover between the two.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79628\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So people buy $1500 RIPs just so they can print outside of photoshop using profiles? No other advantages??
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: JPrimgaard on October 14, 2006, 09:18:40 pm
I'm bumping this thread in the hopes that A) there will be more discussion on these printers and B ) so that someone may answer the last question as I am vague as to the purpose of a RIP as well as ronno.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 14, 2006, 11:21:35 pm
Quote
So people buy $1500 RIPs just so they can print outside of photoshop using profiles? No other advantages??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79655\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Looking at the feature set of a RIP like ImagePrint should show that RIP programs offer other advantages besides good profiles:

0. Fine tuning of the printing parameters often going beyond the native printer OS drivers,
1. More control on the way the image colorspace is converted to the printer/paper profile space,
2. Better B&W printing,
3. Top class upsizing algos,
4. Paper surface optimization algos that make it possible to layout automatically smaller images on a larger paper in an optimal way,
5. Good queue mgt,
6. ...

The problems I have always had with ImagePrint are its interface and poor quality on my windows system, but the feature set is great and the images - when they come out - are great on my Epson 4000.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: chilehead on October 16, 2006, 08:57:44 am
You no longer need to talk about the Z2100 in "future" tense.

It is available on the HP website:
HP Large Format Printers (http://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/products/large_format/?c1=hphome&source=designjet)

IT Supplies also lists it as available:
IT Supplies Z2100 (http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-bin/itsupplies.storefront/4533755100171c5427424200c14905bd/Product/View/Q6675A)

-Mark
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on October 16, 2006, 09:56:44 am
I'd love to know how much different the z2100 prints look from the z3100 prints. Anyone seen prints from both?

Best,
-ron
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 16, 2006, 11:57:19 am
Quote from: ronno,Oct 16 2006, 03:56 PM
I'd love to know how much different the z2100 prints look from the z3100 prints. Anyone seen prints from both?
The Z 2100 is pretty similar to the A3+ (B size) 9180. The 9180 has some high bit depth scrrening for smaller print size that make a difference on glossy and Satin.
The advantages of the Z3100 obviously start with an extended gamut. But if your images are in gamut for the Z2100/9180 the appearance is exactly the same outside the great gloss and bronzing control, Gloss Enhancer.
I've been printing a lot of side by sides. One thing I do see better on the Z3100 is shadow detail on matte media. Yet I only have an early prototype, so maybe that has changed since.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: ronno on October 16, 2006, 03:06:15 pm
Thanks for the info Neil. What is meant by the below:

"The 9180 has some high bit depth scrrening for smaller print size that make a difference on glossy and Satin."
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: JeffKohn on October 17, 2006, 11:42:29 am
Quote
Looking at the feature set of a RIP like ImagePrint should show that RIP programs offer other advantages besides good profiles:

0. Fine tuning of the printing parameters often going beyond the native printer OS drivers,
1. More control on the way the image colorspace is converted to the printer/paper profile space,
2. Better B&W printing,
3. Top class upsizing algos,
4. Paper surface optimization algos that make it possible to layout automatically smaller images on a larger paper in an optimal way,
5. Good queue mgt,
6. ...

The problems I have always had with ImagePrint are its interface and poor quality on my windows system, but the feature set is great and the images - when they come out - are great on my Epson 4000.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course, QImage will give you items 1, 3, 4, and 5 for 1/10th the price, and some would argue that 2 is pretty much a non-issue with inksets that include one or more grays (There's also a $50 option for B/W printing with Epsons - Quadtone RIP). The reason ImagePrint is so popular with Epson users is because the Epson Print Driver is pretty poor and makes getting good linearity very difficult. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the HP's have similar problems.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 17, 2006, 02:49:15 pm
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Of course, QImage will give you items 1, 3, 4, and 5 for 1/10th the price, and some would argue that 2 is pretty much a non-issue with inksets that include one or more grays (There's also a $50 option for B/W printing with Epsons - Quadtone RIP). The reason ImagePrint is so popular with Epson users is because the Epson Print Driver is pretty poor and makes getting good linearity very difficult. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the HP's have similar problems.
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That's the whole point of having a built in spectro. It calibrates for each paper within a assumed tolerance range and inking. Years ago I did a lot of work on rip's and it was never fun to linearise for optimum results. The Z printers do all of it in the background. Can it be fooled? Probably. Will it be right most of the time. Yes.

Now on to rips. They offer things like placing multiple color formats into one document, keeping things like black channels for black text independent, correctly rendering vector art work, page layouts, not transforming shadows to composite, Pantone matching, excellent tiling functions, saving out of ripped files. Much more, but I'm never going to discount the value of Qimage as a before driver printer tool that is not only complete but of great value for it's quality of sizing, sharpening, but also the layout packages, splined panoramics.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 17, 2006, 02:55:16 pm
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Thanks for the info Neil. What is meant by the below:

"The 9180 has some high bit depth screening for smaller print size that make a difference on glossy and Satin."
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Just as all desktop printers higher resolution is a plus for small print viewing. No one stands 12" in front of a 24" print so the need for high resolution printing is unnecessary.
The 9180 has >16 bit screening and masking in the driver that make nice differences for smaller prints , yet you'd likely not see the difference without a loupe on larger prints. Due to the nature of matte prints the effects of the fuzziness of the media negate the higher resolution anyway.
Why do I say you might or might not see a difference is I rely on others now for sharpness reporting as I don't see up close like I used to. I also do a lot of colour checks with girls as viewers to limit the male gender differences. Sometimes it's surprising to hear others opinions!
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 18, 2006, 12:07:16 pm
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the Epson Print Driver is pretty poor and makes getting good linearity very difficult. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the HP's have similar problems.
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The Epson print driver for the K3 inkset is not ¨pretty poor ¨. I and many others get stunning results with it - if you know how to use Photoshop and the printer -
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: neil snape on October 18, 2006, 01:38:05 pm
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The Epson print driver for the K3 inkset is not ¨pretty poor ¨. I and many others get stunning results with it - if you know how to use Photoshop and the printer -
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True Epson improved which was a poor linearisation with the K3 drivers, corrected for a mushy red black, etc. It's still not as good as it could be , which is where some rips can improve the image quality which is already good to a slightly higher level. Most images you may need need better linearisation, in fact sometimes the slightly contrasty linearisation covers up image processing defects that you wouldn't find pleasing.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: wilsonrob on October 18, 2006, 01:44:52 pm
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The reason ImagePrint is so popular with Epson users is because the Epson Print Driver is pretty poor and makes getting good linearity very difficult. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the HP's have similar problems.
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Since QIMAGE actually uses the Epson printer driver I can't see why that is the reason that people buy QIMAGE.

The printer driver itself does not do upscaling, sharpening or page placement. The first two you can do in Photoshop and get just as good results as QIMAGE using the same Epson printer driver that is used by QIMAGE.

The only way to actually avoid the Epson printer driver is to use a RIP such as imageprint.

I have both imageprint and QIMAGE. I use both. QIMAGE is a heck of a lot faster if I am not looking for custom sharpening etc (and of course it supports any windows printer).

If you want to roll your own so to speak there are better sharpeners than those in QIMAGE (since you may not want to sharpen all of the image) and photozoom pro 2 will do a better job of uprezing your image if you are really blowing it up (my opinion, others would differ).

However QIMAGE  gives you just about as good a job as speciallized tools and does it in a convenient and quick fashion. It is also very inexpensive for what it does.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: JeffKohn on October 18, 2006, 04:10:44 pm
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The Epson print driver for the K3 inkset is not ¨pretty poor ¨. I and many others get stunning results with it - if you know how to use Photoshop and the printer -
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Maybe they have improved linearity of the "pro" printers more than the desktop models, because there is most definitely still a linearity problem with the 2400 when printing on matte/rag papers. I know how to use Photoshop, the printer, and profiling software so to imply that's it's simply a matter of user error is BS. I can assure you that the 2400 drivers in "ICM - No Color Adjustments" does a lousy job on matte papers, putting way too much ink in the shadow tones. I avoid ICM mode altogether when creating profiles for matte papers because of this. I get much better results using Color Controls mode (but a truly linear ICM mode would be ideal).
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: JeffKohn on October 18, 2006, 04:18:07 pm
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Since QIMAGE actually uses the Epson printer driver I can't see why that is the reason that people buy QIMAGE.

The printer driver itself does not do upscaling, sharpening or page placement. The first two you can do in Photoshop and get just as good results as QIMAGE using the same Epson printer driver that is used by QIMAGE.
I didn't say people buy QImage to bypass the Epson driver. I said that's why many of them buy ImagePrint. My point was that if the HP driver is good enough, there wouldn't be any reason to purchase ImagePrint for most people because QImage's layout capabilities are more than enough for most people.

Quote
If you want to roll your own so to speak there are better sharpeners than those in QIMAGE (since you may not want to sharpen all of the image) and photozoom pro 2 will do a better job of uprezing your image if you are really blowing it up (my opinion, others would differ).
For large prints, I prefer to do my own interpolation and sharpening, because no completely automated sharpening routine is going to be able to match what I can do in Photoshop. But I still like QImage's layout and profile/driver settings management. For smaller prints I'm fine letting QImage handle interpolation and sharpening though.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: wilsonrob on October 18, 2006, 06:19:59 pm
Quote from: JeffKohn,Oct 18 2006, 08:18 PM
I didn't say people buy QImage to bypass the Epson driver. I said that's why

Sorry Jeff, my bad. I have to stop trying to read messages and work at the same time.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Arhaeus on October 19, 2006, 10:51:42 am
I am printing manager at a design firm in Romania, we work with HP printers and ploters and we whant to buy Z3100. If anybody knows if Z3100-44” is $6,295 with the hardware RIP or not, please tell me.
Middleman, if you know, what is the diferece between the Z3100 printings and the Durst-Lambda and Theta, or Oce lightjet 500xl printings?
I have seen the samples from HP division form Eastern Europe, and I`m impressed. If the printer is as realiable as the HP said it will be an incredible money-making machine!
Did anybody know if at her fastest mode 2 minutes an A1, you see the head marks? At HP 2500 and 3500 series on fast, there are visible head marks.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 19, 2006, 02:22:14 pm
Quote
True Epson improved which was a poor linearisation with the K3 drivers, corrected for a mushy red black, etc. It's still not as good as it could be , which is where some rips can improve the image quality which is already good to a slightly higher level. Most images you may need need better linearisation, in fact sometimes the slightly contrasty linearisation covers up image processing defects that you wouldn't find pleasing.
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As I said, the results I get with the Epson driver are fine and they have been well received by professional peer review.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 19, 2006, 02:38:10 pm
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Maybe they have improved linearity of the "pro" printers more than the desktop models, because there is most definitely still a linearity problem with the 2400 when printing on matte/rag papers. I know how to use Photoshop, the printer, and profiling software so to imply that's it's simply a matter of user error is BS. I can assure you that the 2400 drivers in "ICM - No Color Adjustments" does a lousy job on matte papers, putting way too much ink in the shadow tones. I avoid ICM mode altogether when creating profiles for matte papers because of this. I get much better results using Color Controls mode (but a truly linear ICM mode would be ideal).
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Jeff, All I can tell you is that I´m using an Epson 4800, it does not lay down too much ink, and it delivers great prints. Definitely choice of paper affects DMax - deep shadow detail is better with Innova Gloss than with Enhanced Matte for example.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 20, 2006, 03:10:38 am
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Jeff, All I can tell you is that I´m using an Epson 4800, it does not lay down too much ink, and it delivers great prints. Definitely choice of paper affects DMax - deep shadow detail is better with Innova Gloss than with Enhanced Matte for example.
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Jeff, I should add to this that I did do a test for several images where quartertone detail was important to me - i.e. the bottom quartile of the luminosity scale. I printed them on my Epson 4800, took the same files to one of our premier prographics shops in Toronto where they sell ImagePrint and demonstrate it. We ran the same files using ImagePrint on their test set-up, the dealer and I were agreed that it was very hard to see ANY significant difference in image quality between my results and theirs. I´m not knocking ImagePrint - I think it facilitates certain kinds of workflow that numerous professionals would find very efficient and useful to have. It will be less useful to others who don´t need those features. All I´m saying is that one should not dismiss the Epson printer driver and profiles out of hand. They can yield very, very good results.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: JeffKohn on October 20, 2006, 08:40:05 am
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Jeff, I should add to this that I did do a test for several images where quartertone detail was important to me - i.e. the bottom quartile of the luminosity scale. I printed them on my Epson 4800, took the same files to one of our premier prographics shops in Toronto where they sell ImagePrint and demonstrate it. We ran the same files using ImagePrint on their test set-up, the dealer and I were agreed that it was very hard to see ANY significant difference in image quality between my results and theirs. I´m not knocking ImagePrint - I think it facilitates certain kinds of workflow that numerous professionals would find very efficient and useful to have. It will be less useful to others who don´t need those features. All I´m saying is that one should not dismiss the Epson printer driver and profiles out of hand. They can yield very, very good results.
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I'm printing on a 2400 so I won't presume to speak for the 4800. I can tell you that rag paper profiles created for the 2400 in ICM mode have mucked up shadow tones (particularly greens and browns) that are very similar to what's discussed here: [a href=\"http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/smudged_pines.html]http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/smudged_pines.html[/url]. Using Color Controls mode and the right media type largely eliminates the problem in most cases (but not all).

I can also say that in the case of B/W printing on matte/rag papers, I can get much better linearity and shadow details using custom curves with Quadtone RIP than I can with any approach using the Epson driver, including ABW mode or custom profiles made in ICM or Color Controls mode.

With a high-DMAX paper such as Innova F-Type these issues pretty much go away, but the 2400 driver leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to matte papers.
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 20, 2006, 09:32:08 am
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I'm printing on a 2400 so I won't presume to speak for the 4800. I can tell you that rag paper profiles created for the 2400 in ICM mode have mucked up shadow tones (particularly greens and browns) that are very similar to what's discussed here: http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/smudged_pines.html (http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/smudged_pines.html). Using Color Controls mode and the right media type largely eliminates the problem in most cases (but not all).

I can also say that in the case of B/W printing on matte/rag papers, I can get much better linearity and shadow details using custom curves with Quadtone RIP than I can with any approach using the Epson driver, including ABW mode or custom profiles made in ICM or Color Controls mode.

With a high-DMAX paper such as Innova F-Type these issues pretty much go away, but the 2400 driver leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to matte papers.
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Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Mark D Segal on October 20, 2006, 09:39:03 am
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I'm printing on a 2400 so I won't presume to speak for the 4800. I can tell you that rag paper profiles created for the 2400 in ICM mode have mucked up shadow tones (particularly greens and browns) that are very similar to what's discussed here: http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/smudged_pines.html (http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/smudged_pines.html). Using Color Controls mode and the right media type largely eliminates the problem in most cases (but not all).

I can also say that in the case of B/W printing on matte/rag papers, I can get much better linearity and shadow details using custom curves with Quadtone RIP than I can with any approach using the Epson driver, including ABW mode or custom profiles made in ICM or Color Controls mode.

With a high-DMAX paper such as Innova F-Type these issues pretty much go away, but the 2400 driver leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to matte papers.
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Jeff, several points here:

(1) I don´t know how it works on the 2400, but the way we use the 4800 with the Epson driver is to select NO COLOR MANAGEMENT in the printer driver, and LET PHOTOSHOP DETERMINE COLORS in Photoshop Print with Preview preferences.

(2) Matte papers are a challenge in the deep dark areas whatever the software. That much said if the Quadtone RIP with a custom profile gives you better results than the driver, perhaps this is something I should look at, as ImagePrint didn´t do it for me.

(3) I agree Innova F-Type is a good way to solve this problem, except that it costs a fortune to switch back and forth on the Epson 4800 (major design flaw), which is why I´m going to switch either to an HP 9180 or an Epson 3800 once enough time has passed with both on the market to make an informed choice.

Best,

Mark
Title: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers
Post by: Middleman on November 23, 2006, 12:48:02 pm
Dear all,

I want to stress that the views I said earlier about the printers are of my own, and clearly do not reflect the views of Chaudigital as a company.

Throughout the last few years we have sold Epson products for example, Epson I have to truthfully say, has provided more than sufficient support for us as a dealer. On technical queries, which at times were difficult, the staff there have always been there to help either with me or my customers, and this credit I feel must be given both to the company, to the distributors involved and staff, especially the staff. I apologise to them for the remarks I had made about their products, as a lot of work goes on behind the scenes to make the machines the way they are. Chaudigital as a company at the forefront of technology, is committed to the Epson brand, likewise with all our other brand channel partners, and will continue to do so to the nearest possible future.


Jason Chau