Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: JudyKonopka on January 16, 2018, 05:18:10 pm
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Hi,
I sell both photo prints and art prints. I started the photo business first and regularly use Pauolo Duro Satin for my photographic prints (Red River). I used the same paper for my other store which sells original Mid-century designs. My first review came back AWFUL! They cited the paper as thin, cheap and glossy. :'(.
Looking at this as a positive, I believe I should offer a mat paper. Can anyone recommend a good (not bright white) mat paper for "posters"? I sell original artwork I created in Illustrator and have a Canon Pro-2000.
Thanks!
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There's a lot of really nice papers, but they can be expensive. What kind of price range are you wanting?
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Canon Premium Fine Art Smooth does a wonderful job in that printer. The Blacks are superb for a matte paper. You can read my review of it in my Canon Pro-2000 printer review on this website, as well as reviews of a number of other fine matte papers.
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There's a lot of really nice papers, but they can be expensive. What kind of price range are you wanting?
Between $90 and $120 for a 24' 100 foot roll
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Between $90 and $120 for a 24' 100 foot roll
That is really cheap. At that price thin paper is about the only thing you'll find.
I don't deal much with that end of the market, but here's one suggestion. It's satin instead of glossy and the color is decent and it's not too thin (depending on your definition):
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1107197-REG/breathing_color_vibrance24100_vibrance_luster_photo_paper.html
Here's a matte version, even cheaper but also thinner:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1107207-REG/breathing_color_vibmatte24100_vibrance_photo_matte_paper.html
Here's a higher quality version, but at about 2x what you wanted to pay:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1107171-REG/breathing_color_adt3002450_600mt_decor_art_paper.html
You can buy sample rolls and test them out. Maybe someone else here can offer other suggestions.
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They cited the paper as thin, cheap and glossy. :'(.
My recommendation is thin, matt, it feels heavier than 200gr/m and it's excellent on the PRO-1000! At small sizes it feels like an expensive fine art paper. It's my most used paper. I buy the 17' 30m/100ft roll and cut it to sheets. The 24' one is at the top of your price range:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1010951-REG/hahnemuhle_10643101_matt_fibre_200_inkjet.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1010951-REG/hahnemuhle_10643101_matt_fibre_200_inkjet.html)
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This is what I've been using. Nice gamut and coating . thick 280 gsm and very good price. Don't know who actually makes this media
http://www.lexjet.com/sunset-photo-matte-paper-280g
Does anyone have any experience with this Moab matte. The price certainly is right. Especially for big rolls.
Don't know any of these papers have been tested for longevity.
http://shadesofpaper.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3958_3961_3407_3996_4006
The breathing color is thick and dirt cheap, haven't tried it
https://www.breathingcolor.com/vibrance-photo-matte
Hi,
I sell both photo prints and art prints. I started the photo business first and regularly use Pauolo Duro Satin for my photographic prints (Red River). I used the same paper for my other store which sells original Mid-century designs. My first review came back AWFUL! They cited the paper as thin, cheap and glossy. :'(.
Looking at this as a positive, I believe I should offer a mat paper. Can anyone recommend a good (not bright white) mat paper for "posters"? I sell original artwork I created in Illustrator and have a Canon Pro-2000.
Thanks!
-
You'll also want to figure out the thickness options. If you're in a certain price range, this can narrow available options depending on brands and the sizes available. Most thicker media may be more expensive (this links to brand still and what the product is made of) but is not always the case.
BC paper may be decent, but depending if you need the product quickly vs waiting for it to arrive from another company and then shipping. B&H states 7-14 day special order for BC paper since they are reselling BC media (both across country from each other).
If you're looking for a poster type paper that's not bright white, maybe look at something like Epson Enhanced Matte 192gsm which is about $55 for 24"x100'.
Otherwise, other options that would be available upfront in a nicer type paper for same size would be Moab Lasal Matte 230gsm for about $80 for 24"x100'.
LexJet Sunset products usually are Fredrix products (we used to carry Fredrix until they went with a specific reseller).
How quickly are you looking to get the paper? If samples are available, this can help with testing upfront. Reviews of the papers are also helpful to make a decision properly.
Atlex.com
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This is what I've been using. Nice gamut and coating . thick 280 gsm and very good price. Don't know who actually makes this media
http://www.lexjet.com/sunset-photo-matte-paper-280g
Does anyone have any experience with this Moab matte. The price certainly is right. Especially for big rolls.
Don't know any of these papers have been tested for longevity.
http://shadesofpaper.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3958_3961_3407_3996_4006
The breathing color is thick and dirt cheap, haven't tried it
https://www.breathingcolor.com/vibrance-photo-matte
John, I have a sample of the Moab Lasal Photo matte in-house. No real need to test it, it's loaded with high OBA content as are undoubtedly the other two low cost matte media you mentioned. One can expect all of these low cost matte papers to perform rather poorly in longevity testing much like Epson's Premium Presentation Paper Matte (formerly called "heavyweight matte" and before that "archival matte" which it clearly was not). Anyway, BreathingColor probably describes this class of low cost alphacellulose cast coated high OBA papers best:
"* Great for fine art reproduction and photo printing in the consumer and décor markets
* Perfect for proofing, signage, backdrops, and murals...
* Bright white color lends itself great for high-contrast and black and white images
Judy, note especially the "consumer and décor" description and how BC avoids calling this an "archival fine art" media. Also "Bright white" is almost always marketing code words for moderate to high OBA content which will result in a tired somewhat grayish-yellow media whitepoint color long before good OEM pigmented inks show much fade.
Lastly, if you are printing on the Pro-2000, there is precious little longevity data on the Pro-11/12 ink set at this time. Aardenburg has only three media in test printed with Pro-11 inks at the moment, and these three samples are indicating the latest Canon Pigment ink set is fairly sensitive to media chemistry with regards to light fade resistance of the inks. One of the samples in test is Moab Entrada Rag Natural (avoid the Bright version due to relatively high OBA content). The Entrada Natural Rag paper has a cotton base and coating chemistry that is helping the Pro-11 ink set achieve at least 2x better fade resistance compared to the other two media I have in test. Indeed, Entrada Natural seems to play nice with all of today's OEM ink sets with respect to both initial image quality and lightfastness performance, but it's also significantly higher in cost than your desired price point. However, it comes in both single and double-sided versions at differing thicknesses which also affect price point somewhat, but all share the same coating chemistry. If you ever decide to offer a higher quality fine art print that you can claim is an "archival pigment print" with confidence, then Moab Entrada Natural would be a good place to start. Also, unlike a lot of today's inkjet coatings,the Entrada Natural image receptor coating takes graphite pencil really well which is how many artists prefer to sign their work.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Yes that's the trouble Mark, no good inexpensive matte alpha papers that I can find with the possible exception of that Hahnemühle matte that was mentioned in this thread . I have not seen it and is not sold by very many distributors at all so I would worry about its availability in the future. Hahnemühle describes it as "warm".
There are the Ink Press rag papers, warm and cool, that have outstanding off the chart longevity ratings from Wilhelm ( for what that is worth ) but they are so close to Hahnemühle and Canson that they don't qualify as a quality budget paper.
As a printmaker my clients fall into two categories, those that want the best looking and most permanent
Media they can get, which is about 85% of my clients as I don't print ad work for temporary applications.
And the 20% that just want it to look great in exhibition and in which price is more important than extended longevity. The vast majority of the second category have me print on the Canson Photo Premium Satin ( made in Germany ) that clearly has oba but neverthe less looks great in exhibiting large prints mounted to dibond etc . I need to decide on another less expensive fiber matte that is not totally warm, to have around, but like you guys mentioned I haven't found one . Moab Entrada is great but really the same price point as Hah Photorag.
John
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..Moab Entrada is great but really the same price point as Hah Photorag.
John
Check Atlex.com pricing. The 40 foot 44 inch roll of Entrada Natural 300gsm is significantly less expensive than HN photo Rag, about $185 versus $312 for HN Photo Rag at both Atlex and B&H. I know ShadesofPaper is also great to work with, and will give a substantial discount over B&H pricing for good customers, but I don't think it will be that much! For whatever reasons, ShadesofPaper doesn't stock many Legion papers and Moab is part of the legion paper group.
The great pricing I can find on Entrada Natural is a big incentive for me to use it, longevity is as good as it gets, and it's double-sided coating virtue allows me to make perfect proof prints on the verso of reject prints (I don't make many rejects but definitely enough to serve as free proofing paper!). Plus, all my serious work gets back-printed, and having same quality output on the verso is really nice.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Another very nice lower cost matte fine art paper to consider is Red River Aurora Natural (not the bright version). At about $62 for a 24-inch 50 ft roll it comes quite close to Judy's price point. There's a notice on the RR website that the new batches will be a little thicker, i.e., with basis weight = 300gsm. Only downside, is that it's best to order a few rolls at a time since Red River charges shipping fees, whereas other dealers absorb shipping costs in their quoted pricing.
Aurora Natural is also a full cotton base sheet, not alpha cellulose. Aardenburg Imaging & Archives has tested it in the past with Epson K3 inks, and the scores were about as good as it gets for K3 lightfastness. New tests of this paper on Canon's latest Pro-11 would need to be run to confirm how it performs with Canon's Lucia Pro 11 ink set, but my guess is it will be a pretty good performer on Judy's Canon Pro-2000. Aurora Natural is OBA-free, slightly but not significantly warm (CIELAB b* value is about 2.0).
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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That Red River sounds like a good price for non oba. I'll check it out. Like you said, hardly anything isn't flooded with dye brighteners in the lower price range.
The Altec price sounds like a temporary discount for Moab Entrada as both B&H and Moab website sell it for $240.00 a 44" roll. Though that is about $80.00 less than Photorag.
The Entrada is a little yellower than Photorag 308 from the new samples I have here, and obviously warmer than Photorag UltraSmooth.
Mark, do you think Photorag UltraSmooth is significantly less stable than 308 for serious work. Your tests do show the paper white is a little less stable. I gotta replace the Rag Photographique, just no dmax left at all with all my inks and UltraSmooth is the closest thing to what it used to be 1.75 dmax with the Vivera pigments, where my Canson and Epson Legacy Rag Photo has crashed to1.68 ( from 1.8 which it usd to be.
I will stock some Entrada as well. It would be especially nice with warmer prints. This is the year I'm experimenting with papers.
I'm really interested in product not changing at all overtime. Hahnemühle has been the most consistent I've ever used, but the damn rolls are too short. They should be 50 feet long not 40 for that price.
John
Another very nice lower cost matte fine art paper to consider is Red River Aurora Natural (not the bright version). At about $62 for a 24-inch 50 ft roll it comes quite close to Judy's price point. There's a notice on the RR website that the new batches will be a little thicker, i.e., with basis weight = 300gsm. Only downside, is that it's best to order a few rolls at a time since Red River charges shipping fees, whereas other dealers absorb shipping costs in their quoted pricing.
Aurora Natural is also a full cotton base sheet, not alpha cellulose. Aardenburg Imaging & Archives has tested it in the past with Epson K3 inks, and the scores were about as good as it gets for K3 lightfastness. New tests of this paper on Canon's latest Pro-11 would need to be run to confirm how it performs with Canon's Lucia Pro 11 ink set, but my guess is it will be a pretty good performer on Judy's Canon Pro-2000. Aurora Natural is OBA-free, slightly but not significantly warm (CIELAB b* value is about 2.0).
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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I’m a bit surprised that hairs are being split over the price of paper. Materials are the cheapest part of production, so if the price is $5 or $10/sheet for a $100, $200? or higher print, when the feel, texture and quality are there - it just doesn’t make sense.
When I show prints on Moab Entrsda Rag Natural 300g/m2 people always comment favourably on the feel, the weight, the beauty of the paper when in hand. The few % points higher cost seems worth it.
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The Altec price sounds like a temporary discount for Moab Entrada as both B&H and Moab website sell it for $240.00 a 44" roll. Though that is about $80.00 less than Photorag.
Our pricing isn't a temporary discount unless it's stated as a discount or "promo" deal or our email blasts mentions this. Our prices on most paper are our discounted upfront compared to retail (or even some competitors).
We have a good relationship with Legion (Moab, Museo and now Canson) as well as Hahnemuhle.
It just really depends on what you're looking for (spec wise) and we are more than happy to help find the correct paper. If we can't get the pricing for you on the product and you get elsewhere, than so be it. Not every company will have the best price every time unfortunately. It also depends if the manufacturer allows a better price (MAP restrictions) vs what is stated online or via phone/email.
The Entrada is a little yellower than Photorag 308 from the new samples I have here, and obviously warmer than Photorag UltraSmooth.
-This also depends on which version of the Entrada you're comparing the Photo Rag to. They have both Bright and Natural available in 190, 290 and 300 gsm.
I'm really interested in product not changing at all overtime. Hahnemühle has been the most consistent I've ever used, but the damn rolls are too short. They should be 50 feet long not 40 for that price.
This also depends on the weight of the paper. Some that are beyond a certain gsm can't go longer as it may not feed through the roll holder on the printer. If it has plenty of room, it's based on the manufacturer requirements which most of us don't really understand itself.
Atlex.com
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Well that is a good price for Entrada Natural if it is your standard price. I only buy 44" rolls of everything so yea price matters, especially when it is $100.00 a roll cheaper. Anything that is labeled "bright white, I don't use.
The Canson rag media is 10 feet longer than Hahnemühle and though costs a little more I just have gotten used to the longer roll, especially when the end of the roll has bump lines in it. They are the same weight. Wish they would all use foam cores like Breathing Color.
-This also depends on which version of the Entrada you're comparing the Photo Rag to. They have both Bright and Natural available in 190, 290 and 300 gsm.
This also depends on the weight of the paper. Some that are beyond a certain gsm can't go longer as it may not feed through the roll holder on the printer. If it has plenty of room, it's based on the manufacturer requirements which most of us don't really understand itself.
Atlex.com
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Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag = 310 gsm, 16.5 mil is not a flimsy paper. It may or may not fit your definition of "matt", but it is not reflective glossy.
I am a newbie in printing, so take my words with a grain of salt, but I love the results coming out of my Canon Pro 1000. I am using the profile supplied from RR web site.
Note that RR naming can be confusing, the term paloduro is used with more than one paper.
I did a bit of research on printing forums before ordering.
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Oh boy, lot of new insights in the last few posts.
I first became aware of the Atlex.com price for 44 inch 40 ft length Entrada Rag Natural 300gsm (yes, the premium thickest paper of all the Entrada versions and double-side coated to boot) several months ago. At first I thought it was an error because ITSupplies doesn't list it at the same price, and ITSupplies and Altlex.com are strongly affiliated. Perhaps Atlex who is posting in this thread can clarify the exact relationship between ITSupplies and Atlex.com. But that price point has held for quite some time, so I'm inclined to take Atlex at his word. It's the real deal price at least for now!
Second, Hahnemulhe actually offers very few OBA-free papers in its diverse lineup of media. HN Museum Etching, William Turner, Photo Rag Pearl, and Photo Rag Baryta are, as far as I know, the only ones out of over 20 different media supplied by Hahnemuhle that are completely OBA-free. That said, several (but not all) Hahnemuhle papers use OBAs very sparingly, i.e. only in the paper core not in the coatings, and at relatively low levels. Location in the media composite layers and concentration levels of the OBAs are both critically important factors in how well papers containing OBAs perform in Aardenburg light fade testing. So, papers like HN photo Rag which have low OBA content and only in the paper core generally perform quite well in Aardenburg testing, albeit not always quite as well as full OBA free media like HN Museum Etching, but well enough that the enduser can be confident in the long term visual appearance of the media whitepoint color. It is the slight tweaking of the media whitepoint color with OBAs in the paper core that gives Hn Photo Rag a slight edge over HN Museum Etching, Moab Entrada Natural, and RR Aurora Natural in terms of measured b* "neutral" whitepoint value, but all of these papers range from b*= 0.0 to about 2.5. Hence, while some are a little more neutral than others none appear to be "cool white" or bright white" in color. If Bright and cool white color balance is your thing, but you also want long term image permanence, then get over your OBA impregnated cool white media bias and learn to dial in a little more "coolness" into your digital image file before you print it ;)...Just sayin, it's a file prep issue not an inherent drawback when using warmer whitepoint media as long as they are not too warm.
Third, HN Photo Rag UltraSmooth just underwent a reformulated coating according to a recent post I read by Keith Cooper either here on LULA, or perhaps I saw it on DpReview. He was privy to a client bulletin from Hahnemuhle stating as such. Anyway, that means Photo Rag Ultrasmooth should ideally be retested with various ink sets for light fastness performance, but my guess it that the new version will still have low OBA content only residing in the paper core not in the coating. It will likely perform reasonably well, and endusers of HN low OBA content media should be reasonably confident in the overall longevity of the media itself irrespective of the longevity of the inks they use. That said, note that Hahnemuhle also makes some premium priced media which crank up the OBA content, locate it in the ink receptor coating as well, and thus all bets are off with those HN products in terms of long term media whitepoint stability.
There may also be one more wildcard in the OBA content story, namely the presence of titanium dioxide (TiO2). Essentially all resin coated (RC) photo media contain a pigmented TiO2 whitening layer, bit some non RC media incorporate TiO2 as well, and in conjunction with OBAs, this chemistry produces some nasty additional yellowing that goes beyond the mere OBA burnout result. It grows additional media discoloration when the artwork is retired to dark storage conditions or exhibited on display at lower light levels that aren't able to bleach this stain formation away like many accelerated light fade testing units do (which is why this phenomenon has gone largely unnoticed and under reported in the ratings for so long in the industry).
Best advice: look for media that have low OBA content in the paper core only or none at all if you care about preserving the whitepoint and highlight, even midtone colors, for as long as your OEM pigmented inks are capable of providing on their own merits.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Red River Palo Duro Softgloss Rag = 310 gsm, 16.5 mil is not a flimsy paper. It may or may not fit your definition of "matt", but it is not reflective glossy.
I am a newbie in printing, so take my words with a grain of salt, but I love the results coming out of my Canon Pro 1000. I am using the profile supplied from RR web site.
Note that RR naming can be confusing, the term paloduro is used with more than one paper.
I did a bit of research on printing forums before ordering.
Palo Duro SoftGloss Rag is indeed a very nice paper, and widely regarded as another "dead ringer" if not simply rebranded version of Canson Platine Fiber Rag, as is Epson Legacy Platine Fiber. Although the base sheet may be sourced form different paper mills, albeit with nearly identical thickness and fiber texture, all of these brands appear to be coated with exact same coating chemistry by Felix Schoeller in Germany.
Palo Duro SoftGloss has a "glossy/luster" coating appearance. Considered to be a plush fine art paper but not matte fine art. Higher price point than RR Aurora Natural as well. It so happens this is also one of the three media now in test at Aardenburg Imaging and printed with the Canon OEM Pro-11/12 ink set which is the ink set used in Judy's Canon Pro-2000 printer. This paper as well as Canon's own Photo Paper Pro luster RC photo media are the other two media in test using the Pro11/12 ink set along with the Moab Entrada Natural. The Canon Pro 11 ink/ RR Palo Duro SoftGloss combination may provide enough lightfastness for many endusers, but both the RRPDSG and Canon PPPL luster type papers are testing now at approximately half the light fade resistance as the matte finish Entrada Natural. Again, this situation speaks plainly to the media coating formulation sensitivity of the latest Canon OEM ink set.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Palo Duro SoftGloss Rag is indeed a very nice paper, .....<snip>
....The Canon Pro 11 ink/ RR Palo Duro SoftGloss combination may provide enough lightfastness for many endusers, but both the RRPDSG and Canon PPPL luster type papers are testing now at approximately half the light fade resistance as the matte finish Entrada Natural. Again, this situation speaks plainly to the media coating formulation sensitivity of the latest Canon OEM ink set.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Thanks, Mark; your contributions from your knowledge base are what make for the best of what internet forums can be.
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Thanks, Mark; your contributions from your knowledge base are what make for the best of what internet forums can be.
Thanks Wayne. That may be the highest compliment I've ever received for the research I undertake at Aardenburg Imaging and Archives :)
All the best,
Mark
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That is also what I was told very recently, that Canson Platine and Epson Platine were both coated in the same location by Felix Schoeller and apparently other brands are selling it as well now. I've been buying both for six months as well as the Rag Photographique and Legacy Fiber and as I described months ago I see no differience in my daily use of either surfaces.
Your comment just now touches on the question I have had for some time. Is the presence of Titanium white pigments in these premium formulations actually an advantage for long term image stability over the minimal use of oba within the paper core of Hahnemühle Photorag 308 and Photorag Ultra Smooth. My memory was that the titanium had a slight edge in the Aardenburg tests, but that tyey were very close. I have a black light exposure unit that I use to view them under and the Canson surfaces mentioned above show no glowing while the Canson rc media glow as does Photorag a little.
It seems what you just said suggests that Titanium White brighteners as is used in some of these premium papers I've been using ( and championing ) might have their own issues overtime as well? Very few media have them that I'm aware of. Breathing Color Canvas and one or two of their papers seem to be the other use of it besides Canson.
The more I talk to people from these companies and their distributors the more I realize how complex these ink receptor coating "formulas" can be. In many, if not all of these coatings there are various components to them and changes can occur depending on secondary suppliers of additives that go into them and Who is doing the coating and where the papers are made and the coating process is taking place ( almost always in different countries )- Germany, France, Switzerland, England, China, Korea, Japan, USA etc.
Not to complicate things, just trying to learn. I'm the kind of guy who likes to stick with the same media for as long as possible, but in a global marketplace where companies are being bought and sold fairly regularly, you do the best you can. It seems to me that Hahnemühle has remained the most predictable and consistent over the last 18 years that I have been at this for their cotton fine art papers. I don't know that much about Legion, but they seem to have a good reputation also. All of this coating stuff is so secretive that it is like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together to see the overall picture of how they differ from one another over time.
Palo Duro SoftGloss Rag is indeed a very nice paper, and widely regarded as another "dead ringer" if not simply rebranded version of Canon Platine Fiber Rag, as is Epson legacy Platine Fiber. Although the base sheet may be sourced form different paper mills, albeit with nearly identical thickness and fiber texture, all of these brands appear to be coated with exact same coating chemistry by Felix Schoeller in Germany.
Palo Duro SoftGloss has a "glossy/luster" coating appearance. Considered to be a plush fine art paper but not matte fine art. Higher price point than RR Aurora Natural as well. It so happens this is also one of the three media now in test at Aardenburg Imaging and printed with the Canon OEM Pro-11/12 ink set which is the ink set used in Judy's Canon Pro-2000 printer. This paper as well as Canon's own Photo Paper Pro luster RC photo media are the other two media in test using the Pro11/12 ink set along with the Moab Entrada Natural. The Canon Pro 11 ink/ RR Palo Duro SoftGloss combination may provide enough lightfastness for many endusers, but both the RRPDSG and Canon PPPL luster type papers are testing now at approximately half the light fade resistance as the matte finish Entrada Natural. Again, this situation speaks plainly to the media coating formulation sensitivity of the latest Canon OEM ink set.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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I’m a bit surprised that hairs are being split over the price of paper. Materials are the cheapest part of production, so if the price is $5 or $10/sheet for a $100, $200? or higher print, when the feel, texture and quality are there - it just doesn’t make sense.
When I show prints on Moab Entrsda Rag Natural 300g/m2 people always comment favourably on the feel, the weight, the beauty of the paper when in hand. The few % points higher cost seems worth it.
Hi, I'm not sure if you're referring to the original question about keeping within a particular price range, or if you're referring to someone else's post. I need to because I have additional costs and need to keep my prices down while still making a profit. A $5 increase would affect my bottom line.
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You'll also want to figure out the thickness options. If you're in a certain price range, this can narrow available options depending on brands and the sizes available. Most thicker media may be more expensive (this links to brand still and what the product is made of) but is not always the case.
BC paper may be decent, but depending if you need the product quickly vs waiting for it to arrive from another company and then shipping. B&H states 7-14 day special order for BC paper since they are reselling BC media (both across country from each other).
If you're looking for a poster type paper that's not bright white, maybe look at something like Epson Enhanced Matte 192gsm which is about $55 for 24"x100'.
Otherwise, other options that would be available upfront in a nicer type paper for same size would be Moab Lasal Matte 230gsm for about $80 for 24"x100'.
LexJet Sunset products usually are Fredrix products (we used to carry Fredrix until they went with a specific reseller).
How quickly are you looking to get the paper? If samples are available, this can help with testing upfront. Reviews of the papers are also helpful to make a decision properly.
Atlex.com
I do have the Moab Lasal in sheets. I am leaning towards very slightly texture paper I think. I have some Hannamuhle paper samples coming tomorrow from B&H.
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You'll also want to figure out the thickness options. If you're in a certain price range, this can narrow available options depending on brands and the sizes available. Most thicker media may be more expensive (this links to brand still and what the product is made of) but is not always the case.
BC paper may be decent, but depending if you need the product quickly vs waiting for it to arrive from another company and then shipping. B&H states 7-14 day special order for BC paper since they are reselling BC media (both across country from each other).
If you're looking for a poster type paper that's not bright white, maybe look at something like Epson Enhanced Matte 192gsm which is about $55 for 24"x100'.
Otherwise, other options that would be available upfront in a nicer type paper for same size would be Moab Lasal Matte 230gsm for about $80 for 24"x100'.
LexJet Sunset products usually are Fredrix products (we used to carry Fredrix until they went with a specific reseller).
How quickly are you looking to get the paper? If samples are available, this can help with testing upfront. Reviews of the papers are also helpful to make a decision properly.
Atlex.com
Atlex, I need to roll the paper up and ship it in a tube. What do you think the max thickness would be 60lb?
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You'll also want to figure out the thickness options. If you're in a certain price range, this can narrow available options depending on brands and the sizes available. Most thicker media may be more expensive (this links to brand still and what the product is made of) but is not always the case.
BC paper may be decent, but depending if you need the product quickly vs waiting for it to arrive from another company and then shipping. B&H states 7-14 day special order for BC paper since they are reselling BC media (both across country from each other).
If you're looking for a poster type paper that's not bright white, maybe look at something like Epson Enhanced Matte 192gsm which is about $55 for 24"x100'.
Otherwise, other options that would be available upfront in a nicer type paper for same size would be Moab Lasal Matte 230gsm for about $80 for 24"x100'.
LexJet Sunset products usually are Fredrix products (we used to carry Fredrix until they went with a specific reseller).
How quickly are you looking to get the paper? If samples are available, this can help with testing upfront. Reviews of the papers are also helpful to make a decision properly.
Atlex.com
Oh, are you the Atlex people? That's awesome :D! I'd really like speak to you just to understand papers a little better. I spoke with B&H and they basically suggested to buy samples and figure it out. I was hoping to get some direction, but the sales guy didn't seem like he really knew a lot about papers.
Do you know BFK Rieves printmaking paper? It has a handmade feel (I think it may be handmade??). It has a very slight texture. I certainly couldn't afford a roll of BFK (and I'm pretty certain it's way to thick to come on a roll), but that's the direction I'd like to go in. For me, Moab Lasal is too white and smooth. I have to keep costs in mind as I also need to purchase the same paper in 8.5 x 11, and 13 x 19 along with the roll. I prefer a natural color, not bright white. I printed a few samples today using the specific ICC profiles (all from Red River). The linen matte (the only texture sample I had) dulled the colors. Not sure if that happens with all textured paper (or matte papes), but it was disappointing. I also need to be able to roll up the print (even the 8.5 x 11), so thickness is definitely an issue. Can I call you tomorrow at your shop?
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Atlex, I need to roll the paper up and ship it in a tube. What do you think the max thickness would be 60lb?
I can't answer for Atlex, but I can give you an answer to your question.
Bear in mind that all roll paper for aqueous inkjet printers like your Canon Pro-2000 are delivered by the manufacturer on either 2 or 3 inch diameter tubes. Even with the superior 3 inch tube diameter, by the time you reach the end of the roll, you will experience noticeable "core set" , ie. print curl, on the prints coming off the printer. Cotton fiber papers exhibit far less "core set" than alphacellulose or RC photo media. Anyway, to flatten a finished print made with roll paper media, you will have to use a home-made or vendor-sold de-curler method.
Now you go to ship them. If you don't de-curl the finished print yourself, but merely put them in a shipping tube the same size diameter as your media was originally spooled on the manufacturer's provided tube, only in the reverse-curl direction, the recipient of the shipping tube will experience less curl than what you started out with in the print coming off the printer. And the customer's framer should be able to cope with that, i.e., de-curl the media further if necessary before framing.
All that said, my personal method for shipping prints is to de-curl the print in house so that it starts out very flat, then ship in a much more benign diameter tube, eg. a 6-12 inch diameter tube size (you can find these larger tube diameters plus end caps online by search query), wrapping the print around the outside of the tube not the inside of the tube with PE foam interleaf available at online sources like Uline.com), then enclosing that assembly in an appropriately sized outer square box (also available at online supply stores like Uline.com). It's a very safe and sure method your customers will appreciate. Cover the costs with a shipping charge if need be or bury it in the print price.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Another very nice lower cost matte fine art paper to consider is Red River Aurora Natural (not the bright version). At about $62 for a 24-inch 50 ft roll it comes quite close to Judy's price point. There's a notice on the RR website that the new batches will be a little thicker, i.e., with basis weight = 300gsm. Only downside, is that it's best to order a few rolls at a time since Red River charges shipping fees, whereas other dealers absorb shipping costs in their quoted pricing.
Aurora Natural is also a full cotton base sheet, not alpha cellulose. Aardenburg Imaging & Archives has tested it in the past with Epson K3 inks, and the scores were about as good as it gets for K3 lightfastness. New tests of this paper on Canon's latest Pro-11 would need to be run to confirm how it performs with Canon's Lucia Pro 11 ink set, but my guess is it will be a pretty good performer on Judy's Canon Pro-2000. Aurora Natural is OBA-free, slightly but not significantly warm (CIELAB b* value is about 2.0).
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Mark,
Thanks. I have quite a few samples of Red River and printed on that one today. I like it, but am still looking around. Thanks for your reply!
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Mark,
Thanks. I have quite a few samples of Red River and printed on that one today. I like it, but am still looking around. Thanks for your reply!
Hi Judy, It seems you have a clear vision of what you want in terms of initial print media aesthetics and media price point. While all of us hanging out on the LULA printers and printing forum can make suggestions, ultimately it comes down to you.. ie. what media properties matter to you, and what you are willing to pay for them. Media samples from vendors is a great way to discover what you want.
all the best,
Mark
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Yes that's the trouble Mark, no good inexpensive matte alpha papers that I can find with the possible exception of that Hahnemühle matte that was mentioned in this thread . I have not seen it and is not sold by very many distributors at all so I would worry about its availability in the future. Hahnemühle describes it as "warm".
To have an idea of how warm is the Hahmemuhle Photo Matt Fibre 200 (bottom), Canson Rag Photographique 310 (middle), Innova IFA-45 (top):
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Do you know BFK Rieves printmaking paper? It has a handmade feel (I think it may be handmade??). It has a very slight texture. I certainly couldn't afford a roll of BFK (and I'm pretty certain it's way to thick to come on a roll), but that's the direction I'd like to go in. For me, Moab Lasal is too white and smooth. I have to keep costs in mind as I also need to purchase the same paper in 8.5 x 11, and 13 x 19 along with the roll. I prefer a natural color, not bright white. I printed a few samples today using the specific ICC profiles (all from Red River). The linen matte (the only texture sample I had) dulled the colors. Not sure if that happens with all textured paper (or matte papes), but it was disappointing. I also need to be able to roll up the print (even the 8.5 x 11), so thickness is definitely an issue. Can I call you tomorrow at your shop?
It seems like Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200 meets many of your requirements. It's not smooth (it has some texture), it's not bright white (it's warm white), you can find it in sheets and it can be easily rolled (or derolled). Hope that helps.
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The Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200 has caught my interest now. Has anyone tried to varnish or cold laminate it with good results?
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On the subject of Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200, it is just one of several differently labeled distributions of the same paper. Attached are these Innova 24/25 clones, single and dual side coated. Lab 97.8 -0.3 2.1 as the average for the 7 measured, single coated ones slightly less warm. Felix Schoeller product most likely, InnovaArt was the first company to distribute it, HM followed, MediaJet after that, there will be more companies that distribute it now. Single sided on rolls available as well here, dual sided only as sheets. I use it for posters mainly, best replacement for HP Matte Litho-Realistic that is even warmer (old version, pre BMG). Whether displayed behind glass or bare, insects love the coating and eat white paths through your images. Spray with HM Protection coat or Talens 680 and it will not happen.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Looks similar to Entrada Natural in color.
To have an idea of how warm is the Hahmemuhle Photo Matt Fibre 200 (bottom), Canson Rag Photographique 310 (middle), Innova IFA-45 (top):
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It seems like Hahnemuhle Matt Fibre 200 meets many of your requirements. It's not smooth (it has some texture), it's not bright white (it's warm white), you can find it in sheets and it can be easily rolled (or derolled). Hope that helps.
Another very nice lower cost matte fine art paper to consider is Red River Aurora Natural (not the bright version). At about $62 for a 24-inch 50 ft roll it comes quite close to Judy's price point. There's a notice on the RR website that the new batches will be a little thicker, i.e., with basis weight = 300gsm. Only downside, is that it's best to order a few rolls at a time since Red River charges shipping fees, whereas other dealers absorb shipping costs in their quoted pricing.
Aurora Natural is also a full cotton base sheet, not alpha cellulose. Aardenburg Imaging & Archives has tested it in the past with Epson K3 inks, and the scores were about as good as it gets for K3 lightfastness. New tests of this paper on Canon's latest Pro-11 would need to be run to confirm how it performs with Canon's Lucia Pro 11 ink set, but my guess is it will be a pretty good performer on Judy's Canon Pro-2000. Aurora Natural is OBA-free, slightly but not significantly warm (CIELAB b* value is about 2.0).
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Thanks!
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Do you know BFK Rieves printmaking paper? It has a handmade feel (I think it may be handmade??). It has a very slight texture. I certainly couldn't afford a roll of BFK (and I'm pretty certain it's way to thick to come on a roll), but that's the direction I'd like to go in.
Canson had a BFK Rives inkjet paper quality. 310 gsm weight. It is no longer in the catalog, at least not labeled as such, Arches no longer allows Canson to use that name and possibly is not delivering the paper base either anymore. It was available on roll and in sheets. Threads on the change in canson paper quality have been here. For one customer I had BFK Rives in stock but the first roll had a coating mark over the length of the paper, increasing in visibility so too late to observe on the last half of the roll. Got a smaller roll to reprint the faulty ones. I prefer Hahnemühle Museum Etching, it is even heavier and more consistent in quality.
Handmade paper is hard to find outside the paper mill museums these days, Nepal etc will produce the oriental hand made papers that are still affordable, labor costs even in China become too high for that. Not to mention the spine issues the workers get. It still is my dream to use some old automotive industry robots for real? handmade paper. The common trick now is to produce four deckled edge sheets by using a cylinder sieve machine with at one spot on the circumference a strip that has no or a few holes so leaves a weak line across the still wet paper web, the next conveyor the paper web lands on is running at a slightly higher speed so the web breaks at the weak line and gives the other two edges its deckled appearance. The inkjet "deckled" edge sheets start as rolls that are more or less ripped by hand.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Canson had a BFK Rives inkjet paper quality. 310 gsm weight. It is no longer in the catalog, at least not labeled as such, Arches no longer allows Canson to use that name and possibly is not delivering the paper base either anymore. It was available on roll and in sheets. Threads on the change in canson paper quality have been here. For one customer I had BFK Rives in stock but the first roll had a coating mark over the length of the paper, increasing in visibility so too late to observe on the last half of the roll. Got a smaller roll to reprint the faulty ones. I prefer Hahnemühle Museum Etching, it is even heavier and more consistent in quality.
Handmade paper is hard to find outside the paper mill museums these days, Nepal etc will produce the oriental hand made papers that are still affordable, labor costs even in China become too high for that. Not to mention the spine issues the workers get. It still is my dream to use some old automotive industry robots for real? handmade paper. The common trick now is to produce four deckled edge sheets by using a cylinder sieve machine with at one spot on the circumference a strip that has no or a few holes so leaves a weak line across the still wet paper web, the next conveyor the paper web lands on is running at a slightly higher speed so the web breaks at the weak line and gives the other two edges its deckled appearance. The inkjet "deckled" edge sheets start as rolls that are more or less ripped by hand.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Have you ever though of using a airgun, like an industrial sprayer? Some can spray really thick material.
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I agree, Museum Etching is a much nicer media than BFK anyway.
We usd to use Reeves BFK as a budget printmaking paper in the 1970s for silkscreens that you could buy in bulk cheap when we couldn't afford Arches or the Italian papers. I believe it was an American company that Arches bought out.
I like the idea of using AI and robotics to create handmade paper. Good use of them.
One of my clients brought me some large hemp sheets that she got in some village in south India. Every single aspect of the process she documented on a cell phone was hand done. It just broke my heart to see how much back breaking work that was and how little they were paid for it. This kind of stuff often ends up in art stores like Dick Blick or Sam Flax in the west. I was really surprised how this uncoated unsized hemp held a dot for printing . The only problem was the black density has this shiny distracting aspect to it. But the texture was great and resolution as good as kozo. . Awagami makes interesting hemp sheets and hemp blended with kozo or cotton sheets.
John
Canson had a BFK Rives inkjet paper quality. 310 gsm weight. It is no longer in the catalog, at least not labeled as such, Arches no longer allows Canson to use that name and possibly is not delivering the paper base either anymore. It was available on roll and in sheets. Threads on the change in canson paper quality have been here. For one customer I had BFK Rives in stock but the first roll had a coating mark over the length of the paper, increasing in visibility so too late to observe on the last half of the roll. Got a smaller roll to reprint the faulty ones. I prefer Hahnemühle Museum Etching, it is even heavier and more consistent in quality.
Handmade paper is hard to find outside the paper mill museums these days, Nepal etc will produce the oriental hand made papers that are still affordable, labor costs even in China become too high for that. Not to mention the spine issues the workers get. It still is my dream to use some old automotive industry robots for real? handmade paper. The common trick now is to produce four deckled edge sheets by using a cylinder sieve machine with at one spot on the circumference a strip that has no or a few holes so leaves a weak line across the still wet paper web, the next conveyor the paper web lands on is running at a slightly higher speed so the web breaks at the weak line and gives the other two edges its deckled appearance. The inkjet "deckled" edge sheets start as rolls that are more or less ripped by hand.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Have you ever though of using a airgun, like an industrial sprayer? Some can spray really thick material.
Like creating handmade paper by feeding pulp through a plaster sprayer? Must be possible I guess. There is that other concept of a spray gun for reinforced polyester where the fibers are cut at the gun and fly together with the resin to the mold. Replace that with paper and size. We all have dreams.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Like creating handmade paper by feeding pulp through a plaster sprayer? Must be possible I guess. There is that other concept of a spray gun for reinforced polyester where the fibers are cut at the gun and fly together with the resin to the mold. Replace that with paper and size. We all have dreams.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
And take it one step further, Ernst, create a condinuous paper molding machine using this sray technique on the front end of an inkjet printer. Feed it liquid paper, and ink, and out come beautiful prints at the other end! ;-)
John Nollendorfs