Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: agbr on December 30, 2017, 12:08:41 am

Title: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: agbr on December 30, 2017, 12:08:41 am
I like the idea of updating our wish lists, but how about we also rate reality against last year's wishes.

Good idea. How about a new thread, reusing the title “What is your #1 wish...” although in many cases, people have a list of several wishes.

This was my single-wish list:

A full medium format 56x56mm sensor and a Hasselblad V mount back using it.

This did not happen in 2017. However, PhaseOne practically already delivers “full format” 645 format sensors, so I guess MF sensors will eventually grow bigger. Perhaps something like 56 x 84 mm (‘6x8’) or “super four thirds”? :-)

Realistically, however (and while I keep dreaming), I doubt that any square format sensor is likely to be developed for the purpose of using it on existing ‘6x6’ film camera systems.




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Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: agbr on December 30, 2017, 12:14:29 am
Sorry, it should have been “What is your #1 request for manufacturers in 2018?” but I can’t change the title...



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Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 30, 2017, 03:33:20 am
For Nikon:
- to relase a FF mirrorless body with the super wide lenses they have patented,
- to release a D5s and D5x
- to relase a 200 f2.0 E FL

For Hasselblad:
- to release a H7D-150c with a best in class EVF
- to start releasing new H lenses matching the best glass out there, for instance their own X1D lenses

Cheers,
Bernard



Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: scooby70 on December 30, 2017, 05:59:27 am
I'd like the following AF lenses in Sony FE mount...

A 20mm f1.8 and
a nice compact 35mm f1.8 and
a 50mm f2.8 macro.

I've had the existing Sony 50mm macro and it hunted like crazy and gave very inconsistent results so I'd like a redesign with better AF.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on December 30, 2017, 08:31:18 am
135mm Sony FE 2.8. Something at a better price point than the Batis. I don’t use it enough to justify the almost $2000 price tag.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: KLaban on December 30, 2017, 08:45:42 am
My wish for 2018 is that Leica does doesn't introduce a new body based on and sized as the M series, but sans rangefinder and with the EVF of the SL.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: shadowblade on December 30, 2017, 08:56:36 am
Canon:
- 5Ds2, with DR that's up to scratch. Either an 8-10fps D850/A7r3 competitor or a 60-70MP high-resolution version will do. Even better if it's both. May be combined with the mirrorless camera option.
- Full-frame mirrorless. The technology has reached the tipping point and it's time for Canon and Nikon to show their hands in this field. If they don't, Sony will just grab more and more market share as mirrorless cameras begin to surpass SLRs in capability. There is a huge long-term benefit to incumbency, as Canon well knows.
- Updates to the 70-200 and supertelephotos. Preferably with mirrorless optimisation, to be equally effective with SLRs and mirrorless bodies. Much easier to have lenses that work well with both systems during the transition than having two separate, incompatible lineups.

Nikon:
- Updated UWAs and tilt-shifts. Apart from the PC-E 19, they're all pretty badly outdated. The 14-24 used to be top dog 10 years ago - now it's bottom of the pile. Again, these should have both mirrorless and SLR optimisation.
- Updated 200-400, with inbuilt TC. I believe they're already doing this  (180-400mm).
- Full-frame mirrorless bodies. Same reason as for Canon.

Sony:
- A9r/A9s. One fast, one medium and one slow in the A9 series, all with top-tier AF.  This might need a bit of redistribution of names - A9s for the current A9 (fast and low-resolution), A9 for something in the 42-50MP, 10fps range (like the A7r3) and A9r for a slow, ultra-high-resolution, low-ISO-focused (perhaps even Foveon-type multilayer sensor) body.
- A better 70-200mm f/2.8
- 200-400mm f/4 with inbuilt TC. Or even a top-tier 200-600mm f/4-5.6 (they amount to much the same thing).
- 500mm f/4L
- An end to the Sony lens price premium

Sigma:
- Tilt-shift lenses
- Sony FE-mount lenses
- Updated long telephotos

HP:
- An update to the Z3200, or at least some other indication of long-term support for the photographic printing market and the Vivera inkset.

EFI/Agfa/Roland/others:
- A UV-curable flatbed printee aimed at the art and photography markets - more printheads for more inks, and a more reasonable size (say, 44x96", for large panoramas, or a smaller 24x36" model) rather than room-sized

Piezography:
- Inksets compatible with Canon/HP thermal inkjet heads, not just the high-maintenance Epson piezo heads
- An updated true neutral inkset using a lightfast blue toner to cool the carbon black, not the current fading ones.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: BAB on December 30, 2017, 10:42:48 am
Wish List for new Hasselblad 2018 Camera Body or Factory Retrofitted Optional Hardware
H69D-100c all white wrap available 300 grams lighter
New base plate mounting system Arca Swiss compatible w/ optional hasse base plate[/size][/font]
Tilting LCD back 4K pixel
Mirror UP---Burst mode 5-9FPS once mirror is up (optional)
Focus peaking within viewfinder (using EVF overlay)
4500 ma battery grip with led power indicators
EVF focusing hood w magnified focus
Sensor trim lens specific
Square lens hoods with better light blocking and easier on-off, including lens caps and w a system of Nano glass filter kits and circular polarizer.
Daylight grip screen that articulates
Tilt-shift sensor with IBIS and some kind of internal HTS without 1.5x magnification.[/size][/font]
Revolving back
New location for cable release

Accessories ----
Tripod collars for most lenses
Forearm support grip
Lens belt with quick change lens mounts
Fitted laser cut camera, lens and accessory specific foam insert for backpacks or pelican cases.
Short mini flash bracket for front mount strobe parallel with lens Arca Swiss compatible
Sliding "L" bracket for vertical or landscape orientation dead center mount Arca Swiss compatible
Nodal slider pre marked for H lenses with pano system head and arms incorporating Arca Swiss compatibility mounting.
Front buttons standing proud for easy access or placed elsewhere.
Wish List for January 2018 firmware update
RAW Histogram by channel in live view
Audible Battery warning
Live view blinkies
Digital distance scale read out a mandatory addition
Automated Integrated focus stacking with XYZ points
Vibration analysis
Programmable shutter speed and focus stacking Bracketing w continuous capture.
Auto white balance
Auto ISO
Custom White Balance
Hyper focal point lens specific
Exposure Scale in Live View
Bracketing ability to choose 3 stops over ex. +1, +2, +3 or 3 stop under
Check Focus Zoom in Live View (slide finger on back to zoom)
Custom Presets with the ability to Re-Name Presets

New lenses
30 % lighter weight with lens tabs for manual fine focus and optimized for the sensor.
Improve existing lens focal length line-up especially those produced before 2008
400mm F3.5,  140-380mm F4.5,  85-240mm F4.5,  16-24mm F 3.5,  180mm F2.2, 115mm F2.0,  24mm TS F2.5
OIS lenses
2x Teleconverter
New HTS without 1.5x
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Paul Roark on December 30, 2017, 11:18:50 am
1.  Lens makers -- Some of us need top quality prime manual focus lenses that are small and light -- the old Leica M approach, but for Sony and others;
2.  Chip makers -- Figure out how to: First, get rid of the cover-glass on our sensors that makes the Leica M glass shorter than 90mm soft at the edges on most platforms, and
     Second, get rid of the Bayer pattern approach to color, perhaps by electronically tunable pixel sensitivity;
3.  Epson -- Drop the barrier to competition in inks via the chips.  For B&W types, we need to be able to have custom B&W inksets that serve our needs.  (The clogging nonsense about third party inks is total BS.)  (BTW Epson, in the meantime I'll just use your older printers.  So, you're hurting your sales of new machines to people like me.)

Then again, what the market has already produced, given the realities of economics and technology, is simply amazing.  This digital revolution has been a great pleasure to live through.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: lightskyland on December 30, 2017, 03:33:31 pm
Loxia 135/3.2

Loxia 28/2.4

I'd settle for CV versions of either / both of these lenses.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: lightskyland on December 30, 2017, 03:38:51 pm
1.  Lens makers -- Some of us need top quality prime manual focus lenses that are small and light -- the old Leica M approach, but for Sony and others;


Hi Paul.

How do you like the Loxia 85/2.4 and/or the Loxia 21/2.8? Too big?

Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Telecaster on December 30, 2017, 03:49:24 pm
Same as 2017: useful WiFi capabilities like auto-uploading to designated networks and firmware updating.

However, as BJL suggested, if you already posted in the 2017 thread, it would be really interesting if you could also share to what extent manufacturers delivered on your wish(es) during the year which is about to end...

Total fail.

-Dave-
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: rdonson on December 30, 2017, 03:51:37 pm
For Fuji X-series

- keep up the great work! 

- The firmware updates seem to transform my X-T2 with every version and I look forward to more. 

- Please include in the next firmware release making the choice of 2 or 10 second delays of the shutter release timer "sticky"

- Please include in the next firmware release more flexibility with choosing the blinkies and RBG histograms

- you've said there will be a new version of the X-T2 with IBIS and I look forward to its release although I don't feel the need to upgrade any time soon.  IBIS will be a boon for those shooting video.




Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Chairman Bill on December 30, 2017, 04:08:19 pm
I've been looking at the Fujifilm XT2/XPro2 as alternatives to the X100s or Nikon D800 I usually carry into the hills & mountains. I've been holding off until I know what Nikon is going to be doing that is (hopefully) full-frame & lighter than the D800, maybe closer to the Fujis in size & weight. A Nikon mirrorless can't come soon enough. Of course, if it's accompanied by even bigger & heavier lenses (like the Sony), I'll just get an XPro 2 for the long mountain sorties.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: agbr on December 30, 2017, 04:47:16 pm
Wow, it’s already getting pretty ambitious

However, as BJL suggested, if you already posted in the 2017 thread, it would be really interesting if you could also share to what extent manufacturers delivered on your wish(es) during the year which is about to end...


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Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Peter McLennan on December 30, 2017, 07:05:35 pm
Amazing how "your #1 wish" quickly evolved into a list of lists.  One (long) list for each of several manufacturers. Photographers are a demanding lot.

Me, I'm with Bernard.  A mirrorless FF Nikon.  With the proviso that it'll take legacy F-mount lenses.  Somehow.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: agbr on December 30, 2017, 09:00:50 pm
Yes, there are some pretty tall orders for the industry But also some practical requests.

I don’t know anything about design limitations to be considered for a FF mirrorless Nikon, but is compatibility with the old lenses difficult to imagine? I mean, Nikon probably has the best track record of all manufacturers when it comes to backwards compatibility.

-Peter
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: shadowblade on December 30, 2017, 10:00:41 pm
Yes, there are some pretty tall orders for the industry But also some practical requests.

I don’t know anything about design limitations to be considered for a FF mirrorless Nikon, but is compatibility with the old lenses difficult to imagine? I mean, Nikon probably has the best track record of all manufacturers when it comes to backwards compatibility.

-Peter

Not unless you change the motors so that they work well for repeated, rapid, small movements as well as single, big movements. Otherwise you're stuck with PDAF only, with limited ability to take advantage of other through-the-sensor focus modes and less overall capability than a lens with a stepper motor.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: E.J. Peiker on December 31, 2017, 12:24:32 am
1. Schneider Kreuznach Blue Ring 25mm(ish)
2. Native FE 150-600mm f/4-5.6
3. Sony FE 15mm f/2 GM (or faster) with extreme care to minimizing astigmatism
4. Capture One support for the 44x33 sensor Medium Format Jr. cameras
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 31, 2017, 02:15:56 am
Not unless you change the motors so that they work well for repeated, rapid, small movements as well as single, big movements. Otherwise you're stuck with PDAF only, with limited ability to take advantage of other through-the-sensor focus modes and less overall capability than a lens with a stepper motor.

Honnestly you are talking about technological limitations that could be by-passed in a variety of ways. I am not sure how you can be that sure about your claims?

The reasonnable thing to say is that we’ll have to see what Nikon is able to come up with.

They are likely to both produce new lenses and a way to adapt existing ones.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: shadowblade on December 31, 2017, 02:32:45 am
Honnestly you are talking about technological limitations that could be by-passed in a variety of ways. I am not sure how you can be that sure about your claims?

The reasonnable thing to say is that we’ll have to see what Nikon is able to come up with.

They are likely to both produce new lenses and a way to adapt existing ones.

Cheers,
Bernard

What makes you think Nikon can do it when neither Canon nor Sony could? Canon EF-M lenses, and others with STM motors work far better than other L-series lenses on Canon mirrorless bodies. Same with Sony lenses - A-mount lenses are slow and inaccurate on E-mount with an adapter.

Ring USM-type motors can make big moves quickly and accurately, but not multiple moves in rapid (as in, many times a second) succession. Linear motors can do both. Unless you've discovered a new type of motor that just happens to have been used by Nikon for all their lenses over the last five years, or unless Nikon mirrorless cameras give up on CDAF and AI-based focus refinements and stick with PDAF only, the current lenses won't be up to the task. It doesn't particularly matter what sort of motor the mirrorless lenses end up using - either way, you'll still need new ones.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: petermfiore on December 31, 2017, 09:20:54 am
Cameras to shoot DNG...

Peter
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Paul Roark on December 31, 2017, 11:08:28 am
Hi Paul.

How do you like the Loxia 85/2.4 and/or the Loxia 21/2.8? Too big?

I have the Loxia 21.  I would like smaller and lighter, but to get the performance I want, it seems necessary.  I use it a lot. 

At the long end, the Leica Marcro Elmar 90mm f/4 is what has knocked the others out.  With its profiles used in conversion, the red fringing it exhibits is generally under control.  I've never not been able to clean up it's images.

In the middle, which is used less than the ends of the range, my latest acquisition is the Voigtlander 40mm f/1.2.  (40mm is a good, half way point between the ends.)  F/1.2 is *not* what I had in mind, but I have not found a lighter, smaller 40mm lens that can equal it on the Sony.  (The Sony 35mm f/2.8 and I have never bonded.  I like manual focus with an accurate infinity stop.  The Sony 35 is also soft compared to what I'm looking for, though it's done a great job on the corner sharpness.)   I think reasonable size/weight and usable for large landscape printing at f/2.8 should be achievable with today's tech.  The Nokton, to its credit might actually be usable in the central 24x30 mm even at f/2.  Not bad, Voigtlander!  And it's not too large, thought not a Leica M "compact" by any means.  (Leica M optics less than 90mm show soft edges due to the thick Sony  sensor coverglass.)

I might add that when I get a lens that is different, it tends to induce experimenting with what the un-wanted feature can do.  I've had Canon f/1.2 optics and always ended up selling them.  I generally like everything in focus and sharp.  I shoot for B&W printing.  As such, the out of focus blobs that can look interesting in color are just characterless blobs -- not to my liking.  But, since it looks like I'll be carrying f/1.2 (test hike with it indicated it's no too heavy), I'll probably experiment with what it can do.  Those challenges are good for me and my photography.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 31, 2017, 07:25:06 pm
What makes you think Nikon can do it when neither Canon nor Sony could? Canon EF-M lenses, and others with STM motors work far better than other L-series lenses on Canon mirrorless bodies. Same with Sony lenses - A-mount lenses are slow and inaccurate on E-mount with an adapter.

Ring USM-type motors can make big moves quickly and accurately, but not multiple moves in rapid (as in, many times a second) succession. Linear motors can do both. Unless you've discovered a new type of motor that just happens to have been used by Nikon for all their lenses over the last five years, or unless Nikon mirrorless cameras give up on CDAF and AI-based focus refinements and stick with PDAF only, the current lenses won't be up to the task. It doesn't particularly matter what sort of motor the mirrorless lenses end up using - either way, you'll still need new ones.

Allow me to wish you a great year 2018 with a lot of photography and happiness.

May the light continue to reveal itself to you and your dear ones.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: BradSmith on January 01, 2018, 12:20:24 pm
The only thing I'd like is a camera body with the same image quality as today's $1,000 and up bodies, BUT, with about 80% of the bells and whistles eliminated for simplicity sake. In my opinion, the seemingly endless feature sets and menu structure of many of today's cameras actually reduce the camera's operability and reduce the enjoyment of using the camera.
Brad 
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Rob C on January 01, 2018, 12:56:57 pm
The only thing I'd like is a camera body with the same image quality as today's $1,000 and up bodies, BUT, with about 80% of the bells and whistles eliminated for simplicity sake. In my opinion, the seemingly endless feature sets and menu structure of many of today's cameras actually reduce the camera's operability and reduce the enjoyment of using the camera.
Brad

At the very least, they force the spending of a lot of time and effort to eliminate as much as possible and set them up for as near as dammit fully manual control.

I was thinking about taking some pix today as I wound up the energy to go for a walk; in the event, I just couldn't be bothered with the idea of having a camera hanging off me on a strap. So nothing happened other than the walk. Perhaps photography ends up becoming as much a nuisance as pleasure.

However, if cellphones were to be made featuring DNG, it would change everything and make DNG the common currency - at last. But folks want connectivity...
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: NancyP on January 02, 2018, 07:54:19 pm
Some phone camera apps already have RAW capability and DNG files.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: the_luminous_french on January 03, 2018, 04:26:17 am
a nice 35mm PC... sigma or zeiss in order to have it on sony, nikon and canon...

maybe even a fully mechanical one, with a sort of universal mount !
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: HywelPhillips on January 03, 2018, 05:22:42 am
Mine remains the same as it was last year when I started the thread - proper RAW histograms. It frustrates me that we've now got a technology where there's a pretty foolproof way to set exposure right there and then: ETTR. (OK maybe you need to fire off a test shot, but in most circumstances that's fine). BUT the cameras steadfastly refuse to expose the information to the photographer.

For Canon: make me a dSLR form factor camera which shoots 4K to a nice modern codec with PDAF touch-screen autofocus. I'd buy one to live on my gimbal today. I'm indifferent to whether it is mirror or mirrorless, but it must take EF lenses (via adaptor is fine). Make a full-frame GH5 killer.

For Sony:  Keep working on the autofocus, especially for video- you're making great improvements here and it's really starting to pay off. Hire a good UI designer at board level or something, because across your products from cameras to blu-ray players your user interfaces are lamentable and stop me loving them despite your technological wizardry. Integrate the touch screen. Keep it up with the lenses, they're awesome.

For Apple: Resurrect Aperture (or it's fine to just ensure Photos has the full functionality of Aperture at last). Make a new boxy MacPro that can take normal PC cards again.

For Capture One: bury the hatchet with Hasselblad and other MF manufacturers and support all camera RAW files. FFS, enough is enough. Add skin smoothing tool or integrate Imagenomic Portaiture.

For Panasonic: add PDAF to your sensors. A GH6 with 1DXII-style tap to focus would be awesome.

For everyone: stop making "film era" cameras with digital sensors. Embrace digital photography and really think about what that means. ETTR and RAW histograms should be omni-present but they're not. Timelapse, HDR, focus stacking, long exposure simulation stacking multiple exposures etc. should all be supported in camera without us having to do the low-level stuff of manually refocussing and taking the next shot in the stack. By all means do a rough job of actually assembling the stacks in camera, with the raw files stored and tagged so that we can do a better job in post. Some cameras do some of this; in 2018 ALL cameras should do ALL of it.




Cheers, Hywel






Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Hulyss on January 03, 2018, 07:00:41 am
I wish you all a great year 2018, health, projects and joy.

Technically I do not need more than what actual camera can do but I have some requests for Nikon and Sigma.

Nikon :

Please, do not give up on mirrorless. I was pretty excited when the DF was teased. I mean... I love pre launch marketing and I was hoping for something very very serious, at least more than the Df. Now, with all the patents, I would like a very serious Fx mirrorless. I would like also that your compagny relocate full in Japan even if the price jump a bit.


Sigma :

You release technically very good lenses. Let's focus on your cameras as you said you don't make profit out of it. Stop the pixel race because it destroy your former magic. Release a fat pixel 1.1.1 full frame sensor please. Sure it would please a load of consumers.

That's all :)
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Rob C on January 03, 2018, 07:33:23 am
Some phone camera apps already have RAW capability and DNG files.

Hi Nancy,

Even with all the time I blow on the Internet, I didn't know that!

Do you, off the top of your head, know which ones offer RAW?

Thanks, and happy new year to you.

Rob
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: GrahamBy on January 03, 2018, 07:49:51 am
Cameras to shoot DNG...

Peter

Pentax. Does everything I need, in fact.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: petermfiore on January 03, 2018, 08:26:46 am
Pentax. Does everything I need, in fact.

I amend my wish...All cameras shoot DNG.

Peter
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: scooby70 on January 03, 2018, 08:51:44 am
1.  Lens makers -- Some of us need top quality prime manual focus lenses that are small and light -- the old Leica M approach,

I don't need state of the art image quality and I'd settle for the same quality I get from an old manual Minolta Rokkor but with the ability to mount it directly onto my camera without the added bulk of a spacer/adapter.

We've seen quite a few new manual lenses be introduced but lenses that are good enough with the ability to mount directly are not so common.

And on another note...
Whenever I read about people wishing that Nikon (or Canon or anyone else for that matter) would introduce a mirrorless camera I do wonder why people are so badge obsessed. I used a Nikon SLR for decades before going to Canon DSLR's which I used for over 10 years before going mirrorless and maybe I'm in a minority but I really don't care what name is on the from of my camera.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Rob C on January 03, 2018, 09:59:06 am
I don't need state of the art image quality and I'd settle for the same quality I get from an old manual Minolta Rokkor but with the ability to mount it directly onto my camera without the added bulk of a spacer/adapter.

We've seen quite a few new manual lenses be introduced but lenses that are good enough with the ability to mount directly are not so common.

And on another note...
Whenever I read about people wishing that Nikon (or Canon or anyone else for that matter) would introduce a mirrorless camera I do wonder why people are so badge obsessed. I used a Nikon SLR for decades before going to Canon DSLR's which I used for over 10 years before going mirrorless and maybe I'm in a minority but I really don't care what name is on the from of my camera.


Simple: they hope they don't have to buy a new set of lenses. That was Nikon's big thing until they introduced the G-system of glass which is no good with old film cameras, as I discovered.

Rob
Title: My #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018? Better ergonomics!
Post by: BJL on January 03, 2018, 02:56:36 pm
Trying to play by the one wish rule: I feel utterly blessed by the image quality that is possible these days, so give me better ergonomics! Like user interfaces that on one hand provide the far greater array of options made possible by digital, computerised cameras but on the other hand let me easily hide the frills when I do not want them. For example, a way to remember what I have programmed my buttons and dials to do! Maybe a voice interface would help?
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: 32BT on January 03, 2018, 09:08:09 pm
Mine remains the same as it was last year when I started the thread - proper RAW histograms. It frustrates me that we've now got a technology where there's a pretty foolproof way to set exposure right there and then: ETTR. (OK maybe you need to fire off a test shot, but in most circumstances that's fine). BUT the cameras steadfastly refuse to expose the information to the photographer.

1. Why do you need ETTR specifically? How many times do you actually have so little DR in a scene and enough time to capture it, that ETTR is both viable and advantageous?
2. how do you know the camera isn't already doing ETTR under the hood?
3. would you be willing to sacrifice color-accuracy for true ETTR?
4. What do you hope to learn from a RAW histogram? If the histogram clips, what does that mean for actual image pixels? Specular highlights, or entire image elements like clouds?
5. would you prefer a proper clipping indication instead?
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: HywelPhillips on January 04, 2018, 06:05:01 am
1. Why do you need ETTR specifically? How many times do you actually have so little DR in a scene and enough time to capture it, that ETTR is both viable and advantageous?
2. how do you know the camera isn't already doing ETTR under the hood?
3. would you be willing to sacrifice color-accuracy for true ETTR?
4. What do you hope to learn from a RAW histogram? If the histogram clips, what does that mean for actual image pixels? Specular highlights, or entire image elements like clouds?
5. would you prefer a proper clipping indication instead?

1. Because unlike film, which had a genuine, physical roll-off in the highlights, digital sensors have a "correct" exposure. That exposure is the highest exposure consistent with not clipping any individual channel, modulo the complication of specular highlights (which I'll discuss below). Coming from a physics background, I just want to be able to expose my sensor optimally, and in the vast majority of situations there actually is an optimal exposure choice.

How many times would I use it? All the time, for landscape. Especially if sunlight clouds are in shot, which where I live means "almost every shot".

2. Because when you dig into RAW files with RAW digger or similar, it clearly isn't. For example, the clipping indicator on my Sony A7RII show clipping a fair bit before actual saturation occurs. And your question answers itself- if I had RAW histograms, I'd KNOW whether or not my camera was doing ETTR under the hood. I want to KNOW- right there on the camera- which is the whole point of my request. The information is right there in the RAW file immediately after capture, but modern cameras do not have the facility to display it.

With the information, the choice is mine as to whether to redo the exposure to get closer to optimum. Without the exposure information, I frequently bracket and hope. I would prefer to remove the "hope" part of that operation.

3. I fail to see why presenting the RAW histogram would have any effect at all on colour accuracy. Possibly automatic ETTR in the camera would compromise colour accuracy, but presenting the INFORMATION to me cannot have any effect. And generally speaking ETTR is the best way to prevent loss of colour accuracy by making sure no individual channel is clipping.

4. I want to see the range of values in the image as shot. Simple as that. We have histograms now, and very useful they are, but they are much more useful if supplemented by the OPTION to see what's actually come directly off the sensor. RAW histograms are useful for when you are shooting RAW in the same way that histograms of in-camera JPEG are useful when shooting in-camera JPEG.

5. Proper clipping indication would be hugely useful as well! Personally if I had to choose one of the two, I'd prefer histograms, with a bin indicating total number of overflow sensels for each channel. (It just gives one more information). But yes, RED-style RGB clipping indicators would be a big step forward. It's one of the very best features of my RED Scarlet.

I'd really like it if the clipping overlay would show pixels which have clipped in each colour overlaid as well, so I can judge whether or not to care about a small amount of clipping. Specular highlights- don't care. Sun's disk in a sunset- do care if I possibly can. Sun's disk in a sunstar - do care, want to make sure the smallest amount is clipping consistent with not having noise in the shadows. A combination of a proper RAW-based clipping indication, RAW-based noise floor indication, channel-by-channel clipping indicators and RAW histograms gives one the necessary information, and that's what I want to have added to camera UI.

Hywel
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: 32BT on January 04, 2018, 07:39:01 am
Right,

let me first state that i am all for more control based on correct information. I just want to find out what specifically is desired. This request for ETTR and RAW histograms is posted time and again over the years, but I'm not sure whether people are really aware of what they are requesting. A RAW histogram in linear space for example, will be mostly unusable info. Adjustments required to make it more readable to the average mortal will automatically get one into a swamp of questionable practices with a different "optimum" for different photographers.

The primary example is the linear behaviour of the RAW data. So we have a RAW file with data that preferably represents linear behaving samples from the sensor.

Let's assume that the sensor actually does behave linear up to saturation. How do you know that the camera does NOT actually expose for saturation and re-adjusts the data written to the file to represent your exposure settings? (note that seeing RAW data samples in a file has very little relation to whatever happens on the sensor and in the electronics.)

Let's assume the sensor does not behave linear, which is a reasonable assumption for most electronics, then:
1. do you prefer linear behaviour over saturation behaviour?
2. is "correct" or "optimal" exposure now a "middle gray" referenced exposure in the sense that most data should concentrate on the most linear part of the curve?

If you want feedback for the saturation side of the exposure, do you also want feedback for the shadowtones? When do shadowtones become unusable? If you have to make a compromise between not clipping clouds and reasonable foliage shadowtones, how do you know you've nailed the exposure? Is this an issue of experience? Just like experience helps you to translate clipping in the output to actually clipping the data?

These are just questions to get to the bottom of it. Maybe I'm hijacking the thread and this should be discussed elsewhere.

For good measure I'll add a post with a feature wish as well. :-)
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: 32BT on January 04, 2018, 07:49:08 am
Wish:

A useful and quick manual focus override on fly-by-wire mirrorless lenses.

or maybe I just want direct focussing, don't know for sure: point is that IF the camera/lens combo somehow isn't able to acquire focus or finds the wrong focus location, I need to immediately be able to turn the focusring and adjust, and not have to turn it like 500 full rotations to actually have it where I want it. (Canon's original 24-70 seemed to work really well at the time.)

For Fuji specifically:
IS mode that only engages during autofocus lock (half press shutter).

In general:
Highlight and shadow blinkies that actually represent the data prior to sharpening and focus highlight. It's extremely annoying to attempt to use focus contours and blinkies at the same time currently.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: GrahamBy on January 04, 2018, 09:49:43 am
1. Because unlike film, which had a genuine, physical roll-off in the highlights, digital sensors have a "correct" exposure. That exposure is the highest exposure consistent with not clipping any individual channel, modulo the complication of specular highlights (which I'll discuss below). Coming from a physics background, I just want to be able to expose my sensor optimally, and in the vast majority of situations there actually is an optimal exposure choice.

But maybe not, if the scene is such that the luminosity has a long right-tail. If you expose for the specular highlights, you will under-expose the rest.
There is still a degree of artistic and technical choice available.

Although in truth, it will probably still be fine, given how outrageously wide the margin for error is with 13+ bit DR... :)
Title: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018? raw histogram vs EVF blinkies
Post by: BJL on January 04, 2018, 03:15:27 pm
I would think that for maximizing exposure and thus DR without blowing (non-specular) highlights, an indication in the VF of if and where any channel will be clipped would be more useful than looking at histograms: "blinkies" only at specular highlights could be ignored, for example.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: HywelPhillips on January 05, 2018, 05:27:24 am
On this point I will concur - properly implemented clipping indicators for highlights (and shadows) with channel-by-channel blinkies overlaid on the shot and traffic lights or "goal posts" showing number of clipped or close-to-noise-floor pixels, a la RED,  would be more useful than just the RAW histogram on its own.

Cheers, Hywel
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: Telecaster on January 12, 2018, 02:59:16 pm
Thom Hogan gets to the point:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/wwtd-what-would-thom-do.html

-Dave-
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: bobtrlin on January 15, 2018, 09:17:39 pm
Bring back DOF scales on all lenses where it's practical to do so.  Alternatively, somehow provide the information in the viewfinder perhaps with the provision of pre-selecting a desired circle of confusion.  My aging eyes simply aren't good enough to determine critical focus in the viewfinder.
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 15, 2018, 09:18:43 pm
Bring back DOF scales on all lenses where it's practical to do so.  Alternatively, somehow provide the information in the viewfinder perhaps with the provision of pre-selecting a desired circle of confusion.  My aging eyes simply aren't good enough to determine critical focus in the viewfinder.

This problem will mostly be fixed with mirrorless bodies, won't it?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: What is your #1 wish for manufacturers in 2018?
Post by: bobtrlin on January 15, 2018, 10:02:03 pm
This problem will mostly be fixed with mirrorless bodies, won't it?

Cheers,
Bernard
Not at all.  I shoot mirrorless exclusively.  Getting DOF right is every bit an issue it ever was.