Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: john beardsworth on December 12, 2017, 03:29:14 am
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A heads up for Lightroom 7.1 which came out overnight with updates to all parts of the "Lightroom world" - Lightroom 7 itself (the so-called "Classic"), and the LRCC apps on iOS, Android and PC/Mac. It's mainly camera support, bug fixes, performance tuning, but I recommend that you check out the new Auto button.
The old Auto always used to be a "lucky dip", wrong as often as it was right, but the calculation has been totally changed. It now also sets Vibrance and Saturation, which I don't completely like (I live in a drab country) but I can live with this. If I don't like the effect on the image, I just double click the Presence label, which is quick and convenient. As in the attached example (Lr6 on the left, Lr7 on the right) I think the new Auto almost always produces a substantially better starting point than the old Auto, usually that starting point is good, and in this example I would be happy with its Vibrance and Saturation settings. In general, I think the new Auto almost always produces a substantially better starting point and the improvement is significant enough to give it a try.
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A heads up for Lightroom 7.1 which came out overnight with updates to all parts of the "Lightroom world" - Lightroom 7 itself (the so-called "Classic"), and the LRCC apps on iOS, Android and PC/Mac. It's mainly camera support, bug fixes, performance tuning, but I recommend that you check out the new Auto button.
The old Auto always used to be a "lucky dip", wrong as often as it was right, but the calculation has been totally changed. It now also sets Vibrance and Saturation, which I don't completely like (I live in a drab country) but I can live with this. If I don't like the effect on the image, I just double click the Presence label, which is quick and convenient. As in the attached example (Lr6 on the left, Lr7 on the right) I think the new Auto almost always produces a substantially better starting point than the old Auto, usually that starting point is good, and in this example I would be happy with its Vibrance and Saturation settings. In general, I think the new Auto almost always produces a substantially better starting point and the improvement is significant enough to give it a try.
Not here (USA) yet....at least not showing on my system as available update.....maybe rolling out later.
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I installed this latest version today and tried a number of landscape shots and agree it is considerably better. I do find that like previously there is a tendency to put exposure to high, at least for my taste. I also see that the shift double click on the different labels, like whites, shadows also works on vibrance and saturation. One day there will be algorithms that watch my editing and will be able to suggest my style of editing on any of my pictures. Some would probably consider this a night mare which would also imply that photographers could transfer their style to someone else and get the edits like this master photographer would normally do it. That would not jsut be global edits as the auto function does, but also local edits. Trust me, one day this will come.
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Not here (USA) yet....at least not showing on my system as available update.....maybe rolling out later.
Go to the Adobe Creat Cloud app and click check for updates in the menu in the top right corner. This worked for me when there was no updates shown available earlier today.
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I do find that like previously there is a tendency to put exposure to high, at least for my taste.
Try some snowscapes or other bright scenes. I find there's a tendency to underexpose.
One day there will be algorithms that watch my editing and will be able to suggest my style of editing on any of my pictures. Some would probably consider this a night mare which would also imply that photographers could transfer their style to someone else and get the edits like this master photographer would normally do it. That would not jsut be global edits as the auto function does, but also local edits. Trust me, one day this will come.
They say their machine learning boiled down large numbers of photographers and baked them into a neural nets library. OK, I am paraphrasing (https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/whats-new.html)!
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Go to the Adobe Creat Cloud app and click check for updates in the menu in the top right corner. This worked for me when there was no updates shown available earlier today.
Yep....thanks Hans
Agree on exposure....better, but still a bit “hot”
John
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I just checked the Adobe CC app on my machine and no Lr Classic update yet. I did have updates for PS and Lr CC though.
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Got it this morning and happily it understands files from my A7RIII; no more workarounds with terminal... :-)
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I just checked the Adobe CC app on my machine and no Lr Classic update yet. I did have updates for PS and Lr CC though.
Try signing out and back in again, or just restarting the computer.
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Try some snowscapes or other bright scenes. I find there's a tendency to underexpose.
They say their machine learning boiled down large numbers of photographers and baked them into a neural nets library. OK, I am paraphrasing (https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/whats-new.html)!
Yes, I read that and since it is only global edits and not related to my images, hence my comment :)
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Try signing out and back in again, or just restarting the computer.
Thanks, John. I rebooted the Mac and the Lr Classic update appeared and is now being installed.
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They say their machine learning boiled down large numbers of photographers and baked them into a neural nets library. OK, I am paraphrasing (https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/whats-new.html)!
I would rather the machine learning would only focus it's attention on images I have already processed in my personal library and apply Auto settings based on that data. I have hundreds of thousands of action sports images shot in many similar venues and lighting conditions to use as examples. I don't really need to expend the time effort and resources for Sensei to review works created by other photographers to discover viable options for my established use.
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I don't really need to expend the time effort and resources for Sensei to review works created by other photographers to discover viable options for my established use.
It's already expended that effort, of course, and baked it into the code. And I think one can sometimes see the new Auto settings as questioning your established habits and maybe leading you to change how you use some sliders.
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It's already expended that effort, of course, and baked it into the code. And I think one can sometimes see the new Auto settings as questioning your established habits and maybe leading you to change how you use some sliders.
As I alluded to before this could be taken quite a bit further. The machine learning could be used to adapt to my style including local corrections and there could be a market at styles developped by different photographers that one could buy and download and choose between. The auto button could be replaced by a drop down menu of styles. Styles could also be from machine learning from other sources. Only the imagination is the limit. But as I said I'm sure a lot of photographers would hate this development.
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Intelligent Presets (TM).
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Auto anything; As the late great Bruce Fraser would say, artificial intelligence is often just artificial ignorance.
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It's already expended that effort, of course, and baked it into the code. And I think one can sometimes see the new Auto settings as questioning your established habits and maybe leading you to change how you use some sliders.
That's fine and good if I were a complete newbie to the fray ... but after 44 years as a full time working professional ... over half that time using sliders on a daily basis, I might have a better clue as to which ones to move ... and how far ... might be something I have already studied extensively. Thus, my existing works already in my catalog may already have a better example and grasp on what I need to achieve in order to serve my clients more efficiently.
We'll see how well it works, though, I am going to wait until the pay-to-play beta testers use it a bit before I consider updating. I've been burned too many times over the life span of CC 2015 that I no longer have any urge to be an early adopter.
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That's fine and good if I were a complete newbie to the fray ... but after 44 years as a full time working professional ... over half that time using sliders on a daily basis, I might have a better clue as to which ones to move ... and how far ... might be something I have already studied extensively. Thus, my existing works already in my catalog may already have a better example and grasp on what I need to achieve in order to serve my clients more efficiently.
We'll see how well it works, though, I am going to wait until the pay-to-play beta testers use it a bit before I consider updating. I've been burned too many times over the life span of CC 2015 that I no longer have any urge to be an early adopter.
...and walking to school everyday, up hill both ways!! 😀
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I am getting a Bridge install failure. The program still runs...
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...and walking to school everyday, up hill both ways!! 😀
In fact, some days, I did. Depended which bust stop I chose to use on the way home. 😀
That aside ... how do you feel about a machine learning 'auto' setting that is based upon your personal past works vs what total strangers think your images should look like? We've already had over a decade of the latter, all I am saying is I find the former would be more beneficial and efficient to my workflow.
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Clearly one can see the value of the code learning from one's own style, assuming one can be discerned. But should learning from the user really be prioritised over the aggregated wisdom of Adobe's photographers? Maybe in your case the latter can't make you question how you've always used the sliders, but do you really think that's generally the case?
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Butch, circumstances dictate the use of the Auto button for many folks. I don't think it's a panacea for anyone. For me it could be a time saver. I will use it when I'm going through 1600-2000 sports photos from a game. I will use it to get me close to a good looking photo, tweak it a bit to taste and then apply those settings to the rest of the photos with similar lighting. It will save me a LOT of time in post processing. Especially if I'm tired.
Do I use Auto on my landscape work? Rarely.
Do I use some of the wonderful automation features in my camera? You betcha. Shooting totally manual in my camera has its place and time but that's a rare instance and usually in challenging conditions. I love Auto ISO, continuous AF, Zone AF, etc. when appropriate.
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The question is Ron, will you now use Auto more, or even much more, for those landscape photos than in the past? It's worth trying, because you might just do so.
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For me it could be a time saver. I will use it when I'm going through 1600-2000 sports photos from a game. I will use it to get me close to a good looking photo, tweak it a bit to taste and then apply those settings to the rest of the photos with similar lighting. It will save me a LOT of time in post processing. Especially if I'm tired.
Exactly, sifting through several hundred to several thousand sports images is the bulk of my work day for any day that ends in the letter 'y' ... What I am suggesting that the machine learning auto could be more of a modified preset that takes into account the relative nature of an image based upon the existing data already on hand that the end user performed earlier that day, that week, that month (or past decades) right in the same or similar venue under similar lighting conditions. All the crowd sourcing data in the world is likely to have no better knowledge or feel for that circumstance than the user with their feet on the ground at that location.
It's not that I don't appreciate or have respect for the efforts and talents of others ... but many other end users are not without their own set of accrued skills and there is a wealth of potential individualized machine learning already on hand. Otherwise, if we just want to emulate what others are doing, we may as well shoot and offer SOOC jpegs and be done with it.
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In fact, some days, I did. Depended which bust stop I chose to use on the way home. 😀
That aside ... how do you feel about a machine learning 'auto' setting that is based upon your personal past works vs what total strangers think your images should look like? We've already had over a decade of the latter, all I am saying is I find the former would be more beneficial and efficient to my workflow.
It’s a frigging starting point. If you don’t like it, start from ‘zero’. Your choice. Not worth complaining about.
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The question is Ron, will you now use Auto more, or even much more, for those landscape photos than in the past? It's worth trying, because you might just do so.
I'm just starting to go through some night time photos from Brookgreen Gardens (South Carolina) "Nights of a Thousand Candles". Tricky shooting to say the least. As the title of the show indicates there are over 1,000 candles and more strings of LED lights than I thought existed. It's a dazzling display and gob smacking beautiful in person. I bracketed shots and I'm using "Auto" on these to see what happens.
So far "Auto" is working out quite nicely to see which exposures work the best. I think I'm going to rename "Auto" to "Get me Closer Quickly". ;D
So, John, to your question, yes, I'm using it on these landscape shots. Not sure where I'll end up in my daily routine but it is fun and worthwhile so far.
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So far "Auto" is working out quite nicely to see which exposures work the best. I think I'm going to rename "Auto" to "Get me Closer Quickly". ;D
So, John, to your question, yes, I'm using it on these landscape shots. Not sure where I'll end up in my daily routine but it is fun and worthwhile so far.
And that's intriguing, isn't it? I always used to call Auto "Lucky Dip" or "Roll the dice". This new version is much more.
Something else that's interesting is called Best Photos. It's currently a "technology preview" in Lightroom Web and uses the AI to choose photos based on a mixture of user input (ratings, flags) and other analysis which isn't documented but seems to include concepts like the rule of thirds and measures of sharpness. The sad thing is that it doesn't run locally but one has to sync a collection of photos, run it online, then save the output to a collection. I've not yet managed to throw an entire new shoot at it and then test its suggestions against my own review of the shoot, but my spot tests have made me feel that it's one of those high-falutin things that isn't just hot air but has practical value.
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So far "Auto" is working out quite nicely to see which exposures work the best. I think I'm going to rename "Auto" to "Get me Closer Quickly". ;D
Which is the aim of the design of the new AI based Auto. Also, it should be noted that I personally had a bit to do with training the new AI based Auto. I adjusted over 1K of my images from all sorts of situations and conditions including under/over exposures, high ISO, studio and artificial lighting as well as landscape day and nite shots. I was charged with making those adjustments I personally would do for my images (because, well, they were my images).
Yes, the new Auto is a bit conservative with extreme highlights with a tendency of texture and detail being important. Also, the shadows tend to be fairly open...
The goal here is to be consistent in "improving" an image's global based setting and trying to improve the workflow for selection editing. Some images may need little or no further adjustments...most will need tweaking either globally or locally.
The old Auto was really and old crude and primitive attempt to generally adjust black and whitepoints with little other finesse to other settings. It sucked...it was just about as likely to screw an image up as make an improvement...but the new Auto has made great strides as a first pass adjustment.
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Thanks for the insights, Jeff.
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Definitely heavy handed concerning the opening of shadows (most cameras underexpose anyway), works great with portraits (gives you warmer tones and very open shadows), I think its a great auto preset that takes you in a direction one would probably not go! Its kinda BAMM!!!!!
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Which is the aim of the design of the new AI based Auto. Also, it should be noted that I personally had a bit to do with training the new AI based Auto. I adjusted over 1K of my images from all sorts of situations and conditions including under/over exposures, high ISO, studio and artificial lighting as well as landscape day and nite shots. I was charged with making those adjustments I personally would do for my images (because, well, they were my images).
Yes, the new Auto is a bit conservative with extreme highlights with a tendency of texture and detail being important. Also, the shadows tend to be fairly open...
The goal here is to be consistent in "improving" an image's global based setting and trying to improve the workflow for selection editing. Some images may need little or no further adjustments...most will need tweaking either globally or locally.
The old Auto was really and old crude and primitive attempt to generally adjust black and whitepoints with little other finesse to other settings. It sucked...it was just about as likely to screw an image up as make an improvement...but the new Auto has made great strides as a first pass adjustment.
Very cool. Thanks for your ongoing efforts. We all benefit.
Rand
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The new Auto is actually quite good, IMHO.
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It’s a frigging starting point. If you don’t like it, start from ‘zero’. Your choice. Not worth complaining about.
As always you wisdom on such matters is only surpassed by your eloquence.
Extremely thoughtful and valuable advice indeed.
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As always you wisdom on such matters is only surpassed by your eloquence.
Extremely thoughtful and valuable advice indeed.
I could have only done it with your help. 😀
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It’s a frigging starting point. If you don’t like it, start from ‘zero’. Your choice. Not worth complaining about.
Bingo !!!!
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Just a quick note that you must have the Process Version set to either Version 3 (2012) or Version 4 (Current) in order to get the new Auto. Previous process versions will kick in the old bad Auto...
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As I alluded to before this could be taken quite a bit further. The machine learning could be used to adapt to my style including local corrections and there could be a market at styles developped by different photographers that one could buy and download and choose between. The auto button could be replaced by a drop down menu of styles. Styles could also be from machine learning from other sources. Only the imagination is the limit. But as I said I'm sure a lot of photographers would hate this development.
Add in a self-driving car to carry your camera to a location, and we can all just stay in bed!
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Add in a self-driving car to carry your camera to a location, and we can all just stay in bed!
Don't forget to use your phone app to locate the best local iconic location ;D
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Is this Auto technology present in ACR's Auto button on the Basic Panel?
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Yes.
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Proposal to Lr's Dev Team: Put an Auto button in the Basic panel of the Develop module.
It saves a trip from the Develop module to the Lib module and back. It is already available in ACR’s Basic panel.
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Proposal to Lr's Dev Team: Put an Auto button in the Basic panel of the Develop module.
It saves a trip from the Develop module to the Lib module and back. It is already available in ACR’s Basic panel.
Try looking again....it’s there.
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Try looking again....it’s there.
It is indeed! Oops on my part. :(
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My take on Adobe's AI (a.k.a. Artificial "Intelligence"): looks like Adobe's developers went into a coma a decade or so ago, at the hight of HDR craze. Then woke up today and went to pick the brains ("intelligence") of their HDR buddies.
On a related note... are we now really supposed to suffer from Schewe's taste every time we click on the auto button!? As if we haven't suffered enough from his taste in shirts!? ;)
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On a related note... are we now really supposed to suffer from Schewe's taste every time we click on the auto button!? As if we haven't suffers enough from his taste in shirts!? ;)
There's a simple solution, Slobodan. Just paste a sticker that says "Schewe" on your monitor screen exactly where the LR "Auto" button appears, and you won't be tempted to touch it any more. :D
Eric
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On a related note... are we now really supposed to suffer from Schewe's taste every time we click on the auto button!? As if we haven't suffered enough from his taste in shirts!? ;)
Yes! He's got a gun to your head to use Auto on all your snapshots ;D
You know how to use Auto but revert some of it's corrections right?
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Could be worse. Imagine if clicking "A" Raber-ised your photos :-)