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Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Black & White => Topic started by: MyLifeUncut on October 22, 2017, 11:11:39 am

Title: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: MyLifeUncut on October 22, 2017, 11:11:39 am
Hi everybody,

please forgive me if this is a _very_ basic question -- but surprisingly it's not easy to come up with a definitive answer by googling or searching forums like this. My question concerns the order of steps in a retouching workflow.

Suppose that I have an image, which I want to convert to black and white and which also needs some retouching in Photoshop. Obviously, I can make the b/w conversion in my RAW converter of choice and send the image to Photoshop as a TIFF afterward or I can do some retouching on the color image and do the b/w conversion later.

Two things seem obvious:
- Doing the conversion at the latest point possible means to not have to start from scratch if I decide to make a color version as well.
- I may retouch differently if the image is already in b/w, which may be beneficial to the final result.

My question is: Is there a general recommendation or "good practice" about the order of steps in your retouching workflow? (I understand that in non-destructive programs like Lightroom this generally doesn't matter but the same is not true for Photoshop and other image processors.)

Thanks for any help! :)

Andreas
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 22, 2017, 11:38:58 am
Hi everybody,

please forgive me if this is a _very_ basic question -- but surprisingly it's not easy to come up with a definitive answer by googling or searching forums like this. My question concerns the order of steps in a retouching workflow.

Suppose that I have an image, which I want to convert to black and white and which also needs some retouching in Photoshop. Obviously, I can make the b/w conversion in my RAW converter of choice and send the image to Photoshop as a TIFF afterward or I can do some retouching on the color image and do the b/w conversion later.

Two things seem obvious:
- Doing the conversion at the latest point possible means to not have to start from scratch if I decide to make a color version as well.
- I may retouch differently if the image is already in b/w, which may be beneficial to the final result.

My question is: Is there a general recommendation or "good practice" about the order of steps in your retouching workflow? (I understand that in non-destructive programs like Lightroom this generally doesn't matter but the same is not true for Photoshop and other image processors.)

Thanks for any help! :)

Hi Andreas,

May depend on the type of postprocessing you need to do, but in general I'd say that keeping the color channel information can benefit the post-processing. It will e.g. allow to base masks on the color information, and you can also use more powerful methods/plugins for the B/W conversion.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Jeffrey Saldinger on October 22, 2017, 05:49:11 pm
I think the answer to your question depends on what you envision for the final image.

I open images in color in Ps when I sense I want to develop different parts of the image differently using a number of black and white adjustment layers with different masks and different settings (there may be other adjustment or retouching layers as well, of course).  As Bart points out, making selections based on color (Ps’s color range tool) can be very useful.

I do the conversion in Lr when I don’t feel I need this greater flexibility of Photoshop, but, after doing some work in Lr, I may subsequently open the BW image in Ps for further work.

It has happened that I’ve opened and worked on a Lr-converted BW image in Ps only to later see that I wish I had the color channels to work with.  When that happens, I make a virtual copy in Lr (perhaps even in a different state than the one I first used in Ps), change it back to color, open that copy in Ps, do what I need to with it, and drag those layers or channels over the now-saved psd then close the opened color version without saving it.

There is a possible consideration of file size too (i.e. never leaving Lr to work on a psd) but I never let that determine which approach I take.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: MyLifeUncut on October 23, 2017, 02:30:11 am
Thanks for your replies, very helpful. I did not expect there to be a definitive answer, of course -- but generally, it seems to make sense to do the conversion as the last step (which is what I did so far).
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Jeffrey Saldinger on October 23, 2017, 09:01:20 am
You're welcome.  Glad you found it helpful.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Smoothjazz on October 30, 2017, 11:58:21 am
In the newest 2017 Kelby Photoshop CC book he mentions a few options for B&W conversion, but in the end he mentions his favourite and preferred technique for black and white- which is to convert in Photoshop with Nik Silver Efex Pro. It is a great plug-in, and I prefer it too.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: tom b on November 11, 2017, 12:54:19 am
Thinking about Photoshop B&W conversion.

B&W that is not quite B&W. Duotones, tritones and quadtones, something to consider. A forgotten Photoshop conversion technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0JP_5Xj3-o

Also PS Image/Adjustments/Black & White is something to think about.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: patjoja on January 03, 2018, 01:03:22 am
Hi Andreas,

May depend on the type of postprocessing you need to do, but in general I'd say that keeping the color channel information can benefit the post-processing. It will e.g. allow to base masks on the color information, and you can also use more powerful methods/plugins for the B/W conversion.

Cheers,
Bart

I start with an import from camera into Lightroom, then develop the color image in Photoshop and/or DXO Optics Pro, then the image is sent back to Lightroom.  The final color image remains in Lightroom.

Then, for black and white conversion, I take the image back to Photoshop and use Silver Efex Pro 2 to develop the print into my B&W image.  The new B&W image then goes back to Lightroom and resides side by side with the color image.

I find that having a completely processed color image is a very good starting point for the black and white conversion.

Patrick
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Dave Rosser on January 03, 2018, 09:23:38 am
I start with an import from camera into Lightroom, then develop the color image in Photoshop and/or DXO Optics Pro, then the image is sent back to Lightroom.  The final color image remains in Lightroom.

Then, for black and white conversion, I take the image back to Photoshop and use Silver Efex Pro 2 to develop the print into my B&W image.  The new B&W image then goes back to Lightroom and resides side by side with the color image.

I find that having a completely processed color image is a very good starting point for the black and white conversion.

Patrick
Out of interest why don't you go direct from Lightroom into SilverEfex?

Dave
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: john beardsworth on January 03, 2018, 09:41:07 am
Out of interest why don't you go direct from Lightroom into SilverEfex?

One good reason might be to keep the SilverEfex adjustments editable by applying them to a smart object.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: langier on January 03, 2018, 09:43:09 am
100% of the time it's open in PS and then 99% of the time, it's convert using Nik Silver Efex.

After training by Ansel A. so many years ago and years in a wet darkroom doing P-J work at the newspaper, landscape, fine-art, etc., it's hard to beat using PS with Nik doing the conversion then maybe some finish work with my "secret sauce" toning using a b&w adjustment layer to tweak the color...

IMO, though the prints are different in look (it's simply an evolution), with the right paper and good profile, the prints are better today than what I could achieve in the darkroom after hours of crafting and I don't smell quite as bad at the end of the day! ;)
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Dave Rosser on January 03, 2018, 11:40:47 am
One good reason might be to keep the SilverEfex adjustments editable by applying them to a smart object.
Thanks, good point.

Dave
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: patjoja on January 04, 2018, 12:54:35 am
One good reason might be to keep the SilverEfex adjustments editable by applying them to a smart object.

Smart objects are one reason to use PS for sure.  The other is simply file management.  When going to PS from LR and back, a new file is created and sent back to LR.  I prefer having two separate files in LR, one for color, one for B&W. 

Patrick 
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: john beardsworth on January 04, 2018, 03:47:42 am
Smart objects are one reason to use PS for sure.  The other is simply file management.  When going to PS from LR and back, a new file is created and sent back to LR.  I prefer having two separate files in LR, one for color, one for B&W. 

Of course, one gets two files by going LR -> SFX directly, but going to SFX via a PS smart object gives you the flexibility to go back and fine tune your SFX edits. For me that's the big reason to go to LR -> PS -> SFX.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Rob C on January 04, 2018, 07:56:04 am
All I do is get Nikon's software to turn my files into Tiffs, and those go straight to Photoshop. Once there, I make a dupe which I label B/W along with the file number. From there, into Adjustments, and using the supplied route I do the conversion there and then, which also leaves the option of using the different colours to be used as faux "filters"' though in reality, these are seldom of any immense benefit, but now and again they make all the difference.

I see no point in going through all the hassle of first working one's ass off in colour: why? your eyes and mind already know what they want you to do - just do it. Colour, visible in the monitor, is more likely to mislead you as to your ultimate destination than not. Treat it as a distraction and dump it as soon as you can.

Basically, one has to have the courage of one's convictions; if one has none, the it's perhaps the wrong business or hobby in which to spend time. Without certainty there is no future.

How ironic that Photoshop, a tool that offers amazing possibilities, can also become your worst enemy if you over-complicate your life.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: GrahamBy on January 04, 2018, 08:18:45 am
I see no point in going through all the hassle of first working one's ass off in colour: why?

The one exception I've found is that it is sometimes helpful to fix the white-balance before doing the conversion. I'm sure the same could be achieved with the "faux filters" but the default is more likely to be close if the colour balance isn't completely wacky (like when you are shooting in the foyer of a theatre lit with a single tungsten flood-light).

Still, it takes a minute or two, so probably doesn't amount to working my donkey off :)
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Paul Roark on January 04, 2018, 10:39:18 am
I typically keep the color layer for a while so that I'll be able to select by color and use different slider settings on different B&W layers when I do an Image>Adjust>B&W.  The ability to use differential filtration for different parts of the image is very valuable.  In fact, even in the film era I experimented with using color film as the capture medium even though B&W printing was the final goal.  However, the color film ended up making very grainy images when "filtered."

I might note that the use of the Image>Adjust>B&W approach to B&W in Photoshop can leave halos that are bad.  One reason to have the color image at the base layer for a while is that taking that color and doing a Split Channels (right click on Channels  window) gives halo-free filtering.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: patjoja on January 04, 2018, 11:46:08 am

I see no point in going through all the hassle of first working one's ass off in colour: why? your eyes and mind already know what they want you to do - just do it. Colour, visible in the monitor, is more likely to mislead you as to your ultimate destination than not. Treat it as a distraction and dump it as soon as you can.

Basically, one has to have the courage of one's convictions; if one has none, the it's perhaps the wrong business or hobby in which to spend time. Without certainty there is no future.

How ironic that Photoshop, a tool that offers amazing possibilities, can also become your worst enemy if you over-complicate your life.

1) I work in color and b/w both.  Some images look best in color, others in b/w.  When I process first in color I also generally run noise programs, check white balances, pre-sharpen, check and adjust histograms to bring images to preferred dynamic range, etc. 

By doing that I end up with a color image I can use if I so desire, as well as a very good and clean image that will convert to BW if the image lends itself to that.  Not all do.

2) I don't understand your comments regarding having the courage of one's convictions...sounds like a lot of BS in regards to choosing to do color or BW.

3) If your monitors are calibrated the way they should be, you should have perfect confidence working in color or bw on them.  If your monitors are not calibrated correctly, then perhaps you should do it so you can trust them.  I calibrate both my monitors and printers and my photos come out of the printer pretty much matching each other exactly.

Patrick  (I may be a 'newbie' to LL, but I'm not a newbie to photography).
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Rob C on January 04, 2018, 01:26:53 pm
1) I work in color and b/w both.  Some images look best in color, others in b/w.  When I process first in color I also generally run noise programs, check white balances, pre-sharpen, check and adjust histograms to bring images to preferred dynamic range, etc. 

By doing that I end up with a color image I can use if I so desire, as well as a very good and clean image that will convert to BW if the image lends itself to that.  Not all do.

2) I don't understand your comments regarding having the courage of one's convictions...sounds like a lot of BS in regards to choosing to do color or BW.

3) If your monitors are calibrated the way they should be, you should have perfect confidence working in color or bw on them.  If your monitors are not calibrated correctly, then perhaps you should do it so you can trust them.  I calibrate both my monitors and printers and my photos come out of the printer pretty much matching each other exactly.

Patrick  (I may be a 'newbie' to LL, but I'm not a newbie to photography).


I'm on the little iPad, so I can't easily edit bits to keep this short.

However, your point 2: bullshit in your mind, quite possibly - no way I can get inside to know, but the simple point I make is that you should know what you're looking for before you press the tit. Of course you can work in colour and black/white, with digital that's rather expensive to avoid. But the fact remains that simply shooting your subject without a definite point of view is pretty limp.

You are free to disagree  - it makes no difference to me either way, but it may make a difference to your work if you adopt that sequence of thinking before clicking. At the very least, it concentrates the mind and saves a lot of disappointment later on in the process.

Point 3 isn't to do with my points, which are about one's thinking about the image before making the exposure. Frankly, I find it strange that anyone might just shoot without having his picture firmly in his head, pretty much processed to his desires. I hardly think of my snaps as mirrors to reality at all: they are practically always intended to be anything but realistic. If I wanted real, I'd just look, smile and walk on by. Photography takes up too much time just to recreate what's already created.

IMO, of course.

Rob
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: digitaldog on January 04, 2018, 01:38:33 pm
1) I work in color and b/w both.  Some images look best in color, others in b/w.  When I process first in color I also generally run noise programs, check white balances, pre-sharpen, check and adjust histograms to bring images to preferred dynamic range, etc. 

By doing that I end up with a color image I can use if I so desire, as well as a very good and clean image that will convert to BW if the image lends itself to that.  Not all do.

2) I don't understand your comments regarding having the courage of one's convictions...sounds like a lot of BS in regards to choosing to do color or BW.

3) If your monitors are calibrated the way they should be, you should have perfect confidence working in color or bw on them.  If your monitors are not calibrated correctly, then perhaps you should do it so you can trust them.  I calibrate both my monitors and printers and my photos come out of the printer pretty much matching each other exactly.

Patrick  (I may be a 'newbie' to LL, but I'm not a newbie to photography).
1 and 3 sound spot on to my way of working too.
I'd have to address how much if any Photoshop work would be needed and if little or none, I'd do everything from raw to virtual copies or maybe at some point saved as DNGs. Done.
If I had to do a lot of PS work, I'd do it in color, then convert and save a copy.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: patjoja on January 04, 2018, 05:18:16 pm

I'm on the little iPad, so I can't easily edit bits to keep this short.

However, your point 2: bullshit in your mind, quite possibly - no way I can get inside to know, but the simple point I make is that you should know what you're looking for before you press the tit. Of course you can work in colour and black/white, with digital that's rather expensive to avoid. But the fact remains that simply shooting your subject without a definite point of view is pretty limp.

You are free to disagree  - it makes no difference to me either way, but it may make a difference to your work if you adopt that sequence of thinking before clicking. At the very least, it concentrates the mind and saves a lot of disappointment later on in the process.

Point 3 isn't to do with my points, which are about one's thinking about the image before making the exposure. Frankly, I find it strange that anyone might just shoot without having his picture firmly in his head, pretty much processed to his desires. I hardly think of my snaps as mirrors to reality at all: they are practically always intended to be anything but realistic. If I wanted real, I'd just look, smile and walk on by. Photography takes up too much time just to recreate what's already created.

IMO, of course.

Rob

Sorry, "BS" was a poor choice of words.  Your methodology and mine are different obviously, and your motivations and mine are different as well.  I do not possess a brain that is capable of processing an image before it's taken, whether that's because of a lack of concentration or an insufficient number of brain cells.  However, I do believe the realm of photography is large enough to encompass many different methodologies and can be enjoyed in whatever way that makes one happy. 

I agree that it's important to know what you're taking a picture of before it's taken, but I also think that there is plenty of room to sometimes be surprised to find things that may have escaped one's notice as part of the post processing workflow.  For me that's part of the fun. If I could hazard a guess from your comments, you might think that's unacceptable as a photographer, but that's okay.  I enjoy doing what I'm doing and at my age I don't care if it's acceptable or not. :-)

Regards,

Patrick

Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Rob C on January 05, 2018, 04:27:27 am
Sorry, "BS" was a poor choice of words.  Your methodology and mine are different obviously, and your motivations and mine are different as well.  I do not possess a brain that is capable of processing an image before it's taken, whether that's because of a lack of concentration or an insufficient number of brain cells.  However, I do believe the realm of photography is large enough to encompass many different methodologies and can be enjoyed in whatever way that makes one happy. 

I agree that it's important to know what you're taking a picture of before it's taken, but I also think that there is plenty of room to sometimes be surprised to find things that may have escaped one's notice as part of the post processing workflow. For me that's part of the fun. If I could hazard a guess from your comments, you might think that's unacceptable as a photographer, but that's okay.  I enjoy doing what I'm doing and at my age I don't care if it's acceptable or not. :-)

Regards,

Patrick

Fun: I have been considering this aspect for quite a long time - several years, in fact. I still find it difficult to conclude one way or the other. Sometimes I think I am having fun with photography and then at others, I realise it has nothing to do with fun, which is redolent of a sense of amusement, lightness of spirit and at least some sense of slight excitement.

The more my mind returns to that subject, the less certain I am. In fact, the only time I can honestly claim to have made a shot in a real sense of fun was the other day - yesterday, I think - when I intentionally set out to ape the William Klein "thing" about marking contact sheets with coloured pens. My reality, obviously a more gloomy one than his, had such selections marked in black or blue pen... But the point remained - at least it did yesterday - that trying to rip off a mannerism would indeed be a "fun" thing to attempt because it doesn't depend on the images but in the treatment of a presentation. For the rest of the time, photography doesn't approach that territory (for me) because it feels far more a driven thing. Truth to tell, I feel increasongly guilty for not being able to raise the same enthusiasm for it as I could a year or so ago. Perhaps that's not accurate: the enthusiasm is there but the desire gets ever more funnelled into directions that are currently impossibe to take, and thus shooting anything else feels exactly what it is: a substitute. The junk I eat every day, compared with my late wife's culinary skills, leaps instantly to mind as a prime example. Would you if you didn't have to?

Your other point, about enjoyment, is paramount: that's what it should be about, I think, whether pro or amateur.

Rob
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Rob C on January 05, 2018, 08:31:18 am
With reference to all the above, something I just stumbled upon:

"The difference between the casual impression and the intensified image is about as great as that separating the average business letter from a poem,” said Harry Callahan in 1964. “If you choose your subject selectively — intuitively — the camera can write poetry.”"

Can't lay claim to much visual peotry, but the technique is second-nature after all these years of tying to produce something to order as well as for my own pleasure in fulfilling the former function.
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Jasper on January 27, 2018, 07:22:18 am
You should know what you're looking for before you press the tit. Of course you can work in colour and black/white, with digital that's rather expensive to avoid. But the fact remains that simply shooting your subject without a definite point of view is pretty limp... Frankly, I find it strange that anyone might just shoot without having his picture firmly in his head, pretty much processed to his desires.

I assume you are referring to previsualization here and I personally think that this is less important now in the digital age.  As far as composition is concerned, of course you need a vision of what you are trying to achieve.  However, digital gives us a much greater flexibility to change what we originally visualized with regards to the tonality and color of the print.  So with film, one typically had to decide at the outset whether to go BW or color (and choose the appropriate film, locking oneself into that vision), whereas with digital one doesn't (unless shooting a Leica Monochrom!).  Same with tonality - in the film days one would adjust the exposure depending on how one visualizes the final print and similarly when one (blindly) processes the film (zone system) whereas in digital one typically exposes to the right regardless of how one visualizes the final print.  So although I usually think about whether I want a photo I'm taking to be ultimately processed in BW or color, digital gives flexibility and I don't always stick with that vision during processing.

With regards to the OP, as others have mentioned, I stick in color as long as possible before converting to BW.  I will set WB, exposure, tone, sharpening, etc in LR.   I'll then export to PS for more intricate work, including retouching.  BW conversion is typically my final stage and like others, I usually use Silver Efex (sometimes processing different parts of the image using different Silver Efex recipes and layering in PS).
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: BAB on January 27, 2018, 10:01:11 am
On a different note as the black and white conversions are simply a process to obtaining a file offering the fullest and richest tones to print and wow the viewer I have another question. Recently I watched a YouTube video b y a photographer using larger format film for capture, then scans and finally off to a print house for his fine art prints. He claims that inkjet prints are sub standard compared to light jet prints from a print house. He furthers goes on to say that we are wasting time and money trying to achieve the best possible print by inkjet technology. As that method of printing at home on my Epson printers is all I’ve ever done in the past ten years I would be interested in anyone thoughts regarding a service for printing. If the answer is use a print service how do they maximize your file and offer you PP giving you a better print and how much money do you have to throw into one print to get better results?


Thanks
Title: Re: Black and white conversion before or after sending an image to Photoshop
Post by: Paul Roark on January 27, 2018, 11:42:19 am
I have a darkroom and did darkroom B&W printing for years.  While reasonable people may differ, in my opinion my inkjet prints are better than the darkroom prints.  At one point, before I felt the inkjet materials were as good as the old silver print papers, I used digital internegatives and an 8x10 enlarger for them.  However, at this point, particularly when using a high carbon content B&W inkset, I think not only are the inkjet images better looking, but they'll probably be more archival -- 100% carbon on Arches watercolor paper, perhaps, being the ultimate.

I can understand some people liking the old processes.   Seeing the image come up in the developer tray is an aspect of photo printing that is clearly more interesting than watching an inkjet printer, but if we're focusing on the final product, I'm afraid technology has moved on.  From my perspective, it's mostly for the better.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com