Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on September 11, 2017, 04:25:16 pm
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Link to the 400 pound gorilla
https://www.dpreview.com/news/0833617964/hasselblad-knocks-30-off-price-of-the-h6d-50c
Edmund
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Now the pricing makes sense relative to the X1D.
But I am still not sure whether the image quality gap of these 50mp small MF sensors justifies all the sacrifices you need to do compared to, say, a D850. That is even if you forget about the price difference.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Now the pricing makes sense relative to the X1D.
But I am still not sure whether the image quality gap of these 50mp small MF sensors justifies all the sacrifices you need to do compared to, say, a D850. That is even if you forget about the price difference.
Cheers,
Bernard
Pricing doesn't yet make sense compared to the Fuji GFX 50s, or the Pentax 645Z so there's still plenty of room downwards.
Nowadays I would assume the sensor price difference for a crop 50c sensor is less than 2x compared to a cutting-edge 35mm full format device, because obsolete production tooling can be used to make what is now an obsolete sensor with obsolete sensor technology. Unfortunately this sets unjustified expectations on pricing for a new 100MP or so crop model which will again need to be made on more current fab lines.
Let's face it, all current 50c Sony based MF products are now effectively on closeout sale. As for the crop format, the economics of the current fashion for 50c based entry level mirrorless are now becoming clearer as the effect of a sensor glut due to Sony's desperate push to newer and better tech, but we've all known that crop is and always will be a kludge, a marketing trick.
Edmund
PS with the old P30 series CCD products etc crop was a sweet point also in device performance, due to peculiarities of the bucket-brigade tech needed to get signals out to the chip edge.
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Pricing doesn't yet make sense compared to the Fuji GFX 50s, or the Pentax 645Z so there's still plenty of room downwards.
To some extend, yes.
Now, the H6D offers other opportunities such as usage with a view camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
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To some extend, yes.
Now, the H6D offers other opportunities such as usage with a view camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, let's face it, all we're seeing here is a big sign marked $$$SALE$$$ while Hassy blows out excess inventory of H6 body chassis, and gets rid of the 50C sensors before positioning the H6D series for retirement and moving the XD to a new 80MP or 100MP chip. The price of the H4D40 kit with lens ended up around E10K, I'd say we can expect the H5D50c to fall another 30% within another 6 months.
Edmund
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Only few needed that 100+MP. Is tech world evolving too quickly?
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Bernard, let's face it, all we're seeing here is a big sign marked $$$SALE$$$ while Hassy blows out excess inventory of H6 body chassis, and gets rid of the 50C sensors before positioning the H6D series for retirement and moving the XD to a new 80MP or 100MP chip. The price of the H4D40 kit with lens ended up around E10K, I'd say we can expect the H5D50c to fall another 30% within another 6 months.
I have a different view about the future of the H platform.
My guess is that Hassy will equip the H7D with an optional EVF in place of the standard OVF. This may not work super well with the H AF lenses, but good MF accuracy check in EVF would be great already.
Now... I may not be 100% objective about this.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Only few needed that 100+MP. Is tech world evolving too quickly?
The marketing model of MF as a luxury product forces manufacturers to provide the highest resolutions possible.
Essentially, the qualities of a camera get dumbed down to a single number, megapixels.
Edmund
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H6D-75c or there abouts should be launching in the next 3-4 months. The H6D-50c was really a crutch to get the back components up to current spec's with CFast, etc. Doing the next gen 33x44 on a full H body is easier than the X2D form factor. Plus, it allows folks with the X1D to enjoy their investment at current pricing instead of having it discounted already. The trick is going to be the premium associated with an OVF on the smaller H6 chips. Is it more than $3-4k?
CPO on the H6D-50c is already 12-13k, and the H5D-50c's from 8-10,500 depending on wifi.
My biggest concern is keeping the volume of H bodies & glass sold high enough. We want a new 35mm prime, and something like the 75-150mm zoom would be amazing. But does Hass & Fuji keep the investment up? The new 1/2000th shutters are amazing, and fast enough (maybe we'll get a bit more with a EFC, but I don't need it). The only other issue I can see is the challenge of focus, when dealing with a lot of depth near the focus point - 100mp+ totally tattles on you if you don't nail it.
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Bernard, let's face it, all we're seeing here is a big sign marked $$$SALE$$$ while Hassy blows out excess inventory of H6 body chassis, and gets rid of the 50C sensors before positioning the H6D series for retirement and moving the XD to a new 80MP or 100MP chip. The price of the H4D40 kit with lens ended up around E10K, I'd say we can expect the H5D50c to fall another 30% within another 6 months.
Edmund
Nope.
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H6D-75c or there abouts should be launching in the next 3-4 months.
How do you know that? Where are they going to get the sensor? The next Sony 33x44 sensor is 100 MP, and doesn't ship until 2018.
jim
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i don't really see a market for the H system anymore....the latest H body is 8000 (!) which is more then GFX and almost X1D....
the last time i handled a H body i was amazed by how far everything else has come....
i understand the marketshare of people who are used to a camera like this or are locked into the H system.....i am not sure anyone else coming from DSLR or mirrorless will pick up a H body and be excited in any way by feel or function....
i think most of these systems (these that do not go to rental places) are leased out and so today a lot of people are paying for a kit that is not worth the payments they might have left on it....
and these are probably the only people left actually interested in the H system....
i guess the 100mpix kit is still (along with the phase offering) the only way to get that kind of IQ and some people will obviously want to need that but i don't see where this is going at all....
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How do you know that? Where are they going to get the sensor? The next Sony 33x44 sensor is 100 MP, and doesn't ship until 2018.
You're right, the roadmap does layout the 100mp in the 33x44 size. And by 3-4 months it is January 2018, which would be a prime time for an announcement IMHO.
The big hitch is going to be announcing anything that directly competes with the -100c without upgrading it as well. Roadmap says it's also on the list for next year, but do we want release dates to be dictated by the 150mp chip? What's the valuation between a 100mp 33x44 compared to a 40x54?
Would have been easier if Sony had staggered the MP's between the sizes.
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Nope.
You mean it'll simply be retired instead?
:)
Edmund
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You're right, the roadmap does layout the 100mp in the 33x44 size. And by 3-4 months it is January 2018, which would be a prime time for an announcement IMHO.
The big hitch is going to be announcing anything that directly competes with the -100c without upgrading it as well. Roadmap says it's also on the list for next year, but do we want release dates to be dictated by the 150mp chip? What's the valuation between a 100mp 33x44 compared to a 40x54?
The thing is that P1 is in a bad situation due to the lack of mirrorless body in their line up. Today the IQ100 is probably their main money making powerhouse. Phase will certainly want to be the first company out with the 150mp chip, so Hasselblad cannot afford to announce their answer much later if they want to keep the H line up attractive for new entrants in China.
And as I said, I am pretty sure that they will propose an optional EVF for the H7D and so will P1 for the IQ4-150.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The thing is that P1 is in a bad situation due to the lack of mirrorless body in their line up. Today the IQ100 is probably their main money making powerhouse. Phase will certainly want to be the first company out with the 150mp chip, so Hasselblad cannot afford to announce their answer much later if they want to keep the H line up attractive for new entrants in China.
phase one must make their money with software these days....their system has a (very, very) small place in the market but i honestly don't know anyone anymore who actually owns or even shoots a phase back or system.....and i have owned several over the years myself....
at least hasselblad has a pretty strong commercial/rental market....its the systems people get for big jobs, even if they end up shooting on their canon anyway....but that is not really a good position to be in either of course....
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phase one must make their money with software these days....their system has a (very, very) small place in the market but i honestly don't know anyone anymore who actually owns or even shoots a phase back or system.....and i have owned several over the years myself....
at least hasselblad has a pretty strong commercial/rental market....its the systems people get for big jobs, even if they end up shooting on their canon anyway....but that is not really a good position to be in either of course....
Perhaps in your part of the world. If you think Phase One profits are mostly from software, then you do not have an insight into their actual sales and profit numbers. In the USA, Phase One has dominated medium format digital rental for years and continues to do so. Remember, it's a big world, and what you see in your own neighborhood only tells a small part of the story. In fact even in your neighborhood, with the proliferation of enthusiast photographers who can afford medium format, you may not be aware of the complete picture. In the past, we were used to having some sense of who was who and who shot with what when we met our colleagues at the film lab. Doesn't happen anymore. There is a lot of activity in anonymity.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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I agree with Steve - however this is a thread about Hassy. I wonder what the lifespan of the H series is now that the XD has started selling well?
Edmund
Perhaps in your part of the world. If you think Phase One profits are mostly from software, then you do not have an insight into their actual sales and profit numbers. In the USA, Phase One has dominated medium format digital rental for years and continues to do so. Remember, it's a big world, and what you see in your own neighborhood only tells a small part of the story. In fact even in your neighborhood, with the proliferation of enthusiast photographers who can afford medium format, you may not be aware of the complete picture. In the past, we were used to having some sense of who was who and who shot with what when we met our colleagues at the film lab. Doesn't happen anymore. There is a lot of activity in anonymity.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Bernard, let's face it, all we're seeing here is a big sign marked $$$SALE$$$ while Hassy blows out excess inventory of H6 body chassis, and gets rid of the 50C sensors before positioning the H6D series for retirement and moving the XD to a new 80MP or 100MP chip.
It is not the first price reduction to happen in MF cameras. I see not reason to see it as an end of the H series. On the contrary, the public Sony sensor roadmap would let us expect an H6D-150c or H7D-150c and a 100 mpixels X2D for summer 2018.
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My guess is that Hassy will equip the H7D with an optional EVF in place of the standard OVF. This may not work super well with the H AF lenses, but good MF accuracy check in EVF would be great already.
I would think that the majority of H users shoot tethered and prefer looking at the image on a large screen than on a tiny EVF. Besides, the AF system in H cameras is quite accurate.
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I agree with Steve - however this is a thread about Hassy. I wonder what the lifespan of the H series is now that the XD has started selling well?
Edmund
I assume that many X1Ds have been bought by photographers who have shunned MF before (size and price).
I own both H6D and X1D and prefer H6D except for the size and weight. I doubt I am alone in that, and believe that H6D will continue to sell well.
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Perhaps in your part of the world. If you think Phase One profits are mostly from software, then you do not have an insight into their actual sales and profit numbers. In the USA, Phase One has dominated medium format digital rental for years and continues to do so. Remember, it's a big world, and what you see in your own neighborhood only tells a small part of the story. In fact even in your neighborhood, with the proliferation of enthusiast photographers who can afford medium format, you may not be aware of the complete picture. In the past, we were used to having some sense of who was who and who shot with what when we met our colleagues at the film lab. Doesn't happen anymore. There is a lot of activity in anonymity.
Steve Hendrix/CI
i have no insight at all, just seeing what people use and what people have....incl fellow photographers, BTS videos, friends of friends, idols,....same as it was in the film days....except there were no BTS videos then of course:)
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I also had the choice between the X1D and the H6D (I have already a H5D50). After a short time I decided me for the H6D-100C. But of course, the next will be the X1D or X2D.
And between, the same prise reduction was maybe two years ago also with the H5D50C. Wihout DJI.
Rem
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I agree with Steve - however this is a thread about Hassy. I wonder what the lifespan of the H series is now that the XD has started selling well?
Edmund
Edmund,
We are highly committed to the continuation of the H-System, evident is the development of a new electronic platform for the camera system, which has given advent to new features, such as Video (4K raw video), a CFast card slot to accommodate it, audio in and out and USB-3 configuration. The H-System lenses has seen an upgrade too, the new Enhanced Exposure Units (EnhEU) type accomplish flash sync up to 1/2000th. Finally, as recent as the release of Firmware version 1.17.0, the added functionality is on par with the X1D.
Sincerely,
Eric Peterson
Field Sales Specialist
Hasselblad
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Edmund,
We are highly committed to the continuation of the H-System, evident is the development of a new electronic platform for the camera system, which has given advent to new features, such as Video (4K raw video), a CFast card slot to accommodate it, audio in and out and USB-3 configuration. The H-System lenses has seen an upgrade too, the new Enhanced Exposure Units (EnhEU) type accomplish flash sync up to 1/2000th. Finally, as recent as the release of Firmware version 1.17.0, the added functionality is on par with the X1D.
Sincerely,
Eric Peterson
Field Sales Specialist
Hasselblad
They who know have spoken :)
I think the raw motion capture is a very exciting development.
Edmund
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I think the raw motion capture is a very exciting development.
Exciting, but damn does it quickly fill any and all storage available. ;D
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Now the pricing makes sense relative to the X1D.
But I am still not sure whether the image quality gap of these 50mp small MF sensors justifies all the sacrifices you need to do compared to, say, a D850. That is even if you forget about the price difference.
Cheers,
Bernard
Apparently a D850 makes more sense.
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Apparently a D850 makes more sense.
Probably. To me the Hasselblad X1D and Fuji GFX may start to make more sense with their second generation cameras equipped with the 100mp next gen sensor. At least there will be a significant image quality gap.
But fundamentally, to me this sensor size is just too close to FF to justify owning 2 full systems in parallel... and since FF is pretty much mandatory for generic shooting (fast AF, long and fast tele) I will probably never invest there.
So I seriouly hope that Hasselblad provides an EVF option for the H6D or H7D.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Probably. To me the Hasselblad X1D and Fuji GFX may start to make more sense with their second generation cameras equipped with the 100mp next gen sensor. At least there will be a significant image quality gap.
But fundamentally, to me this sensor size is just too close to FF to justify owning 2 full systems in parallel... and since FF is pretty much mandatory for generic shooting (fast AF, long and fast tele) I will probably never invest there.
So I seriouly hope that Hasselblad provides an EVF option for the H6D or H7D.
Cheers,
Bernard
I was thinking about this too. 50MP medium format doesn't really have much of an advantage over competitors like the A7RII or 5DSR. However the 100MP sensors are another story...
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Probably. To me the Hasselblad X1D and Fuji GFX may start to make more sense with their second generation cameras equipped with the 100mp next gen sensor. At least there will be a significant image quality gap.
But fundamentally, to me this sensor size is just too close to FF to justify owning 2 full systems in parallel... and since FF is pretty much mandatory for generic shooting (fast AF, long and fast tele) I will probably never invest there.
So I seriouly hope that Hasselblad provides an EVF option for the H6D or H7D.
Cheers,
Bernard
not sure i agree with this.....to me the GFX is definitely a step up from existing FF (incl the 850) but i agree that on a printed 8x10 the difference will be pretty much impossible to see.....but you can probably throw in an 8x10 from an APC-size camera and one from the existing top of the line 100mpix and it will probably still be hard to tell which one is which....
and that won't change once the next gen 100mpix sensors come out....
the step up is visible in tonality when retouching and when having to apply severe crops.....
i dont necessarily think the next sony FF sensor with 80mpix (or whatever it will be ) will be competition for the GFX or X1D....
i agree that the next gen 100 sensor will be an improvement but i think it just slide in nicely with the existing system....
of course the handling, speed, AF,....of existing DSLR and FF mirrorless will still be on a different level and one system does not replace both now and it won't then....
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To me the difference is nearly invisible in 20x30 inch prints.
Heck, it is nearly invisible at 20x30 comparing the D850 to the H6D-100c...
Cheers,
Bernard
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You're right, the roadmap does layout the 100mp in the 33x44 size. And by 3-4 months it is January 2018, which would be a prime time for an announcement IMHO.
The big hitch is going to be announcing anything that directly competes with the -100c without upgrading it as well. Roadmap says it's also on the list for next year, but do we want release dates to be dictated by the 150mp chip? What's the valuation between a 100mp 33x44 compared to a 40x54?
Would have been easier if Sony had staggered the MP's between the sizes.
I would think 100mp cropped sensor, not till Photokina.
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The thing is that P1 is in a bad situation due to the lack of mirrorless body in their line up. Today the IQ100 is probably their main money making powerhouse. Phase will certainly want to be the first company out with the 150mp chip, so Hasselblad cannot afford to announce their answer much later if they want to keep the H line up attractive for new entrants in China.
And as I said, I am pretty sure that they will propose an optional EVF for the H7D and so will P1 for the IQ4-150.
Cheers,
Bernard
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a full frame Digital Mamiya 7 emerge at Photokina or sometime in the future.
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For me at least, now we have the 100MP sensors, I'm not so interested in sensors anymore. I really like both the H and XF Platforms but I would love to see the Contax 645 live again.
I want to see lens development more than anything. I wish someone would bring out an all new and highly developed 80mm f2 or 1.8.
There is very little choice when it comes to Medium Format lens rendering. It all looks very same same. I miss Zeiss rendering in medium format. I would give anything for a new Zeiss Planar 110mm f2 and a Zeiss 80mm f2 Planar.
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For me at least, now we have the 100MP sensors, I'm not so interested in sensors anymore. I really like both the H and XF Platforms but I would love to see the Contax 645 live again.
I want to see lens development more than anything. I wish someone would bring out an all new and highly developed 80mm f2 or 1.8.
There is very little choice when it comes to Medium Format lens rendering. It all looks very same same. I miss Zeiss rendering in medium format. I would give anything for a new Zeiss Planar 110mm f2 and a Zeiss 80mm f2 Planar.
Both the 110/2 and 80/2 can be used on the XF. The 80 requires remounting while the 110 only requires an adapter. Neither will provide AF (as used on the XF) and are only practical wide-open (though wide-open is the main reason, IMO, to use these lenses). Details in our Big Buttery Bokeh Lenses for Phase One (https://digitaltransitions.com/fast-portrait-lens-phase-one/) blog series.
I too would love to see an ultra-fast portrait lens with distinctive wide-open rendering. I know Phase One knows this is a sorely missed item in the lineup, though I know they have pretty firmly internally said they will only release lenses that are extremely good and will last several sensor cycles (see the most recent releases of the 35LS-BR, 45LS-BR, 150/2.8LS-BR and 240LS-BR which are all magnificently good lenses), and doing a truly excellent super-fast portrait lens at 100+ megapixels would be a challenge. Time will tell!
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To me the difference is nearly invisible in 20x30 inch prints.
Heck, it is nearly invisible at 20x30 comparing the D850 to the H6D-100c...
Cheers,
Bernard
My sense is that the primary benefit of the forthcoming Sony 100mp cropped MF sensor will NOT be the increase in resolution over the current 50mp sensor used in the X1D and the GFX. It will be about speed. Reduced EVF blackout time, reduced shutter lag, faster AF, faster refresh rate allowing the use of upgraded EVFs.
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My sense is that the primary benefit of the forthcoming Sony 100mp cropped MF sensor will NOT be the increase in resolution over the current 50mp sensor used in the X1D and the GFX. It will be about speed. Reduced EVF blackout time, reduced shutter lag, faster AF, faster refresh rate allowing the use of upgraded EVFs.
and large format raw video with various crops possible out of the same sensor ...
Edmund
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My sense is that the primary benefit of the forthcoming Sony 100mp cropped MF sensor will NOT be the increase in resolution over the current 50mp sensor used in the X1D and the GFX. It will be about speed. Reduced EVF blackout time, reduced shutter lag, faster AF, faster refresh rate allowing the use of upgraded EVFs.
Indeed, this would probably have more real world value for a large majority of photographers, even if it doesn't always help to sell cameras in the first place.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I agree with Steve - however this is a thread about Hassy. I wonder what the lifespan of the H series is now that the XD has started selling well?
Edmund
Since the DJI Hasselblad partnership, we've released a new generation and two versions of the H-System (H6D-50c & 100c), an entirely new camera system (X1D-50c), new XCD lenses, and new HC/HCD lens exposure unit enhancements (1/2000th). I think all speaks to a considerable commitment and bright future for all of our products. As noted, the introduction of the X1D speaks to our growth in market share, new customers and a projected upward trajectory.
Sincerely,
Eric Peterson
Field Sales Specialist
Hasselblad
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Since the DJI Hasselblad partnership, we've released a new generation and two versions of the H-System (H6D-50c & 100c), an entirely new camera system (X1D-50c), new XCD lenses, and new HC/HCD lens exposure unit enhancements (1/2000th). I think all speaks to a considerable commitment and bright future for all of our products. As noted, the introduction of the X1D speaks to our growth in market share, new customers and a projected upward trajectory.
Sincerely,
Eric Peterson
Field Sales Specialist
Hasselblad
weren
t all these product released before the DJI partnership happened?
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The reality is that the upgrade price to an H6D-100C is very attractive to those that want that sort of specification which is why the 50C is being remaindered now. The H series (and the P1 offering) is not dead but there is a limited and specialised market for it. The X1D is not an H series and never will be for certain pro's.