Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Nemo on August 31, 2006, 01:15:18 pm
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Hasselblad could be developing a new system based on a 48x48mm sensor (or 36x48mm). This new system might be presented at the Photokina:
http://valentinsama.blogspot.com/2006/08/n...lblad-para.html (http://valentinsama.blogspot.com/2006/08/nuevos-productos-hasselblad-para.html)
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Now that would be strange. This isn't like the film days when cropping the square format was a cheap option. (The wasted film area was cheap). Digital sensors are expensive. Very few people want to shoot in square format most of the time, which means most one would have to constantly crop images from this camera and throw away 20-30% of the expensive megapixels. Much better to have a 4:3 sensor with a rotating back, imho!
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Much better to have a 4:3 sensor with a rotating back, imho!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
like the H1;)
but seriously...hasselblad had the 503/V96? combo which is square 16mpix and "cheap"....it does not compare to the rollei 6008/P20 bundle feature wise and just seemed a way for hass/imacon to get rid of they last square backs and to throw V system owners a bone....
but the idea that hasselbald will come out with a ...what ? 4x4 camera? cheap? maybe with it's own lenses? seriously doubt that....they can't produce a film back for less then $2000..so how much will they charge for a whole camera with back? it would have to be a bit under 9000-10000 and that would raise questions about their H1/2 pricing.....
16mpix square is great and absolutely enough for most applications (and a lot better then any DSLR)i shoot with a P20 myself..but it is in many ways 2 year old standard...there is no reason to make a new announcement with it...
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It is supposed to be an integrated camera, not a body-and-back modular camera.
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like the H1;)
16mpix square is great and absolutely enough for most applications (and a lot better then any DSLR)i shoot with a P20 myself..
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Sure, that's why all the music, sports and event photographers use medium format, because it's so much better then any DSLR....
Hasselblad IMHO need a medium format digital system that's priced to lure people from the DSLR systems, not scare them off...
I love the quality of medium format digital, but how much more money can you charge for the same job ?
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Sure, that's why all the music, sports and event photographers use medium format, because it's so much better then any DSLR....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i was talking about image quality...not handling...i don't think the majority of sports and event photographers ever shot MF..becuase of speed and handling...
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Not another Fujiblad with rebranded Fujinon lenses. Not that there's anything wrong with that but if I want Fujinon, I'll buy Fujinon.
This one doesn't come out of Gothenburg but from the 'fecund' minds of Shriro and ex-I'm a con.
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i was talking about image quality...not handling...i don't think the majority of sports and event photographers ever shot MF..becuase of speed and handling...
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True, but image quality doesn't matter if you can't get a frame off because your medium format is lagging years behind in the handling stakes...
Hasselblad could put a lot of work in there..
I can't wait..
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37x37mm is an old format, nothing exciting. It's basically from the stone age in digital terms.
First the Kodak Pro Back, then the V96, and there's about 2 or 3, (or 4, or 5, or 6) more backs with this size chip, including the newer 503CWD package. We need something bigger. After all, it's called "Medium Format" digital for a reason. I'd rather shoot with Canon than spend money on a 37x37mm chip.
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37x37mm is an old format, nothing exciting. It's basically from the stone age in digital terms.
Well said! If we sre going to move forward make a digital FF chip for the Mamiya RZ. We can't be far off as Dalsa has a 4x4 chip made for Nasa. As that is the only 6x7 system left on the market.
Thanks denis
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37x37mm is an old format, nothing exciting. It's basically from the stone age in digital terms.
Well said! If we sre going to move forward make a digital FF chip for the Mamiya RZ. We can't be far off as Dalsa has a 4x4 chip made for Nasa. As that is the only 6x7 system left on the market.
Thanks denis
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I am pretty sure, from my sources, that we will never see a 6x7 FF chip. In fact, one strong source doesn't feel we'll see anything bigger than 645. I believe him. There's no way the economy of scale works for anything bigger than 645.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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yes I do not think larger than 645 is strictly necessary.
As we can see from the image quality from some of the digital large format lenses if manufactures know this is the size then new lenses for slr medium format cameras and / or wide angle shift cameras can be designed specifically for these sensors in terms of both image quality and image circle for any possible movements.
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Haven't hassy already announced (and advertised) a digital back for legacy Hasselblads, with 16mp resolution? A new camea might just be making the most of that already developed product.
Quentin
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It is supposed to be a new camera based on a new format with new lenses.
I find some logic in it.
The relation between size of the sensor and cost is exponential, not linear. For this reason, it is not the same game 35mm vs 645 than APS vs 35mm.
It was hard to offer 35mm sensors at reasonable prices. Only Canon does it actually. For 645 sensors is much more difficult to reduce the prices, due to sensor size and reduced scale of production. It makes sense to establish a new format, smaller than the original 645 or 6x6. That is the only possibility for Hasselblad and other MF manufacturers in the long run. 645 (cropped) sensors offer better image quality than 35mm full frame sensors, but the prices are too high. More affordable and versatile systems is the only way to compete against Canon.
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I have had a thought of what hasselblad may be trying to do here..get into the mf users who use dslr market and dslr users market.
Their new camera may be all in one, like a dslr, with a 37x37 square chip so no need to shoot portriat or landscape, just crop after, and if the lenses are based on their current H series ( and they bring out a new wider lens) then they give a big enough image circle to have good shift movements if hasselblad also relaease a shift adapter..as I am sure they will.
Looking at it like that this camera could be brilliant.
22 mp 16 bit etc sensor..so better i.q. than current dslr. better lenses than avaialble to current dslr., more shift options with top glass, so if you can live without super fast af etc this camera could be brilliant for those who want a dslr where the image quality is put above all other consideratiosn, whilst still in a fairly portable package and still with autofocus etc..
this will not take over the ground of view cameras but does I think take over the ground of medium format film and and dslr for those photographers who do not shoot sports, etc...
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Probably, supply their X-Pan camera & lenses with digital back "X1D" and that would take care of masses who wants entry level Hassey digital, who could be next year's H-D series buyers. That's my 2c.
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645 (cropped) sensors offer better image quality than 35mm full frame sensors, but the prices are too high. More affordable and versatile systems is the only way to compete against Canon.
I have to disagree. I think the main reasons to go with MF are: higher image quality, and bigger viewfinders.
The cost of sensor production is falling and will continue to do so until it becomes quite affordable. As long as the MF companies can hang on until then, they should enjoy a new era of success.
By introducing a short-term system like this which offers a smaller increase in IQ and viewfinder size than the full jump to 645, I don't see many people jumping on the bandwagon. If you crop this image with a 2:3 ratio, you will end up with ~24x37mm image and 15MP. Even if the dynamic range and colour is better than the Canon 1DsII (which I expect), that is not going to be enough to tempt people to swap platforms.
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By introducing a short-term system like this which offers a smaller increase in IQ and viewfinder size than the full jump to 645, I don't see many people jumping on the bandwagon. ]
I agree, sounds like a solution looking for a problem. the Mamiya ZD is already smaller than a 1Ds and handles similarly to a 35mm dslr, so what do you gain by a new system with a smaller sensor?
Quentin
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I am pretty sure, from my sources, that we will never see a 6x7 FF chip. In fact, one strong source doesn't feel we'll see anything bigger than 645. I believe him. There's no way the economy of scale works for anything bigger than 645.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Famous last words, my friend.
If this is true, then digital just plain sucks. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.
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I've also heard that 6x4.5 is going to be it for sensors. Gang them together in arrays maybe, but bigger wafers are not really an option apparently. My P25 at 2 years old is still doing it's job well but the next generation of 42mp backs with lensed 6 micron sensors and useable at 1600 ISO will be all I will ever need. (probably).
Oh, and my H1 with it's P25 and my 210 lens is lighter than a Canon 1DSmk2 with 70-200. It is also better balanced. I don't shoot sport or pop concerts though. It's the right tool for my job shooting high end weddings and portraits. The quality in the image just leaps off the print like MF has always done.
If I was Hblad I'd want a 55mm sq 55mp sensor, pop it in a back that looks like an A12 and sell it for £10k. Wow that would be something to sing about.
Damien.
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The new camera is confirmed. It will be presented at the Photokina.
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Valentín Sama's blog:
http://www.valentinsama.blogspot.com/ (http://www.valentinsama.blogspot.com/)
also in newletters from Hasselblad.
Maybe is not a squared sensor (this point is not confirmed), but it is a new "48mm format" (?).
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photokina press conference and 1-2-1 interview invitation
Don’t miss Hasselblad’s photokina press conference, where CEO Christian Poulsen and other senior executives will unveil:
· The world’s most advanced 48mm DSLR camera system
· The company’s new strategy: No More Compromises For Film – Our Future is Digital!
· Future industry trends & Hasselblad’s own initiative to establish an image quality standard to help professional photographers charge fairly for images of exceptional quality
Date: Wednesday 27th September 2006
Time: 1100hrs – 1230hrs
Location: Conference Room 3-5, Congress Centre E/N
You’ll also be able to see the broadest range of products in the high-end digital photography market on the Hasselblad stand - Hall 2.1, Stand A020/B029 and B020/B028 – as well as Hasselblad’s new, high quality magazine, VICTOR by Hasselblad.
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There is no mention of the word 'new' anywhere. I wonder if this is just a re-presentation of the H2 with the integrated back?
Hassleblad have used the same terminology in their recent advertising to describe the flagship integrated H2. As 'tested' in BJP last week. I say 'tested' in scare quotes because the reviewer evidently missed the tasty yellow hue of the skin tones in the samples printed with the article. Of course it may just have been the look they were going for, that warm 'sallow' look slightly redolent of a damaged liver.
OK it wasn't that bad.
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In terms of modern technology, in this age --- "never" translates into --- at least not in the next couple of years...
I am pretty sure, from my sources, that we will never see a 6x7 FF chip. In fact, one strong source doesn't feel we'll see anything bigger than 645. I believe him. There's no way the economy of scale works for anything bigger than 645.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The company’s new strategy: No More Compromises For Film – Our Future is Digital!
I wonder if "compromises for film" include supporting the V system, maybe it's finally the end of the V road?
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Some info:
I read an interview with Christian Poulsen (CEO of Hasselblad) in a Swedish magazine this summer (Cap&Design Proffsfoto June 2006).
He expressed a strong belief that the future of Hasselblad is not in "Digital Backs" but in complete cameras. They would keep the H-bayonet, but make the sensor smaller. This would allow for smaller and cheaper lenses while keeping compatibilty with existing the existing system. An additional benefit for Hasselblad would of course be that the move would leave Phase One and Leaf out.
Mr. Poulsen was CEO of Imacon, known for filmscanners but also for digital backs. Previous year Imacon merged with Hasselblad.
Best regards
Erik
Hasselblad could be developing a new system based on a 48x48mm sensor (or 36x48mm). This new system might be presented at the Photokina:
http://valentinsama.blogspot.com/2006/08/n...lblad-para.html (http://valentinsama.blogspot.com/2006/08/nuevos-productos-hasselblad-para.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75066\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There is no mention of the word 'new' anywhere. I wonder if this is just a re-presentation of the H2 with the integrated back?
Hassleblad have used the same terminology in their recent advertising to describe the flagship integrated H2. As 'tested' in BJP last week. I say 'tested' in scare quotes because the reviewer evidently missed the tasty yellow hue of the skin tones in the samples printed with the article. Of course it may just have been the look they were going for, that warm 'sallow' look slightly redolent of a damaged liver.
OK it wasn't that bad.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77167\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think all the photographic magazines these days suffer from a serious lack of technical knowledge and there are less than a handful of reviewers world wide that can really master a MFDB and it's software on a level that allows them to be respected by their readers.
This is why occasionaly one reviewr will rave a product that other will trash and this is why they often miss the real pluses and/or minuses of the product.
In the review mentioned above, the reviewer is referring to the lack of Moire in an image that supposadly has potential for moire.
Anyone who shoots high end digital will notice that the metal background is out of focus therefore will not produce anything, while the sunglasses in the front show quite a substantial amount of colour moire.
This may well be due to a print problem or wrong settings that were being used for processing, but in this case it simply shows that the reviewer doesn't really understand what he is looking at...
We as manufacturers are somehow stuck in the middle, between photographers who want to buy the product and can be mislead by one review or another, and magazines that are not capable of doing justice to the product (if it's a good one) or show it's real disadvantages when relevant....
Yair
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I think all the photographic magazines these days suffer from a serious lack of technical knowledge and there are less than a handful of reviewers world wide that can really master a MFDB and it's software on a level that allows them to be respected by their readers.
This is why occasionaly one reviewr will rave a product that other will trash and this is why they often miss the real pluses and/or minuses of the product.
We as manufacturers are somehow stuck in the middle, between photographers who want to buy the product and can be mislead by one review or another, and magazines that are not capable of doing justice to the product (if it's a good one) or show it's real disadvantages when relevant....
Yair
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I find myself in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Yair. The reviews I've seen don't do justice to the work which goes into perfecting the high end products.
But I do disagree with the "handful of reviewers" in Yair's statement. There are few competent reviewers, but they are available on tap - almost every publication has a staff geek or a top-notch consultant hidden away to be trotted out when necessary. I should know, when younger I've acted as this trophy-geek often enough for the french computer press.
I see two main reasons why magazines prefer not to activate their trophy-geeks.
Firstly, geeks are really expensive. My last publication moaned all the time about my rates, while agreeing they were justified by the quality of the writing and the readership accrued.
And then, geeks are opinionated, unpredictable and uncontrollable - they care about tech, and will as likely as not point out the product's critical failings - this is what happened to Aperture at launch, some photo geeks hated the image quality, and missed some essential features, and they were very vocal. But instead of listening, Apple shouted back. I should know, I was at the receiving end of some of the shouts
Now, no magazine will want to antagonize their advertisers on a regular basis - so they prefer to use the pattern of feature-list & product description and keep everybody happy. Easy to write, pleases everybody, no comebacks. And the geeks stay safely chained in the basement. Of course, a company that wants a careful review can always request one ...
For completeness' sake, I should say that some rare companies actively support geek-reviews and geek-articles. Adobe is such a geek-journalist lover : They will help you, make their personnel available, make sure you get all the support you need to learn complex procedures, and never complain about what you say. And, guess what ? They're successful and their products just keep getting better.
Now, I have a suggestion Yair, you can tell your favorite magazine that you would like your back to be reviewed by me, and then leave it in my hands for the 6 weeks to two months I would need to learn to use the software decently and exercise the hardware - irrealistic ? I guess so.
Frankly, I don't think that a solid opinion on the nuances one can hope to get out of this type of hardware can be formulated in less than a month, it took me much longer to learn to use my 35 mm digital systems, develop a look with them and start to stretch them - if you want a quick evaluation, then a testchart or standard target composition shoot will give you that, and leave you with next to no usable information.
Left in neutral gear, digital systems go nowhere, life starts to get much more interesting when you push them James here is a good example of somebody who knows how to stretch his Leaf back.
Edmund
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But I do disagree with the "handful of reviewers" in Yair's statement. There are few competent reviewers, but they are available on tap - almost every publication has a staff geek or a top-notch consultant hidden away to be trotted out when necessary.
I don't think a good reviewer needs to be a geek, but he/ she should be an experienced digital photographer who uses MFDB for a living that also knows how to analise the product and write about it in a language that other photographers will understand.
It is OK if he/ she uses as certain brand and even if the review is biased, as long as the information is passed in the right way. Quating the spec and the words of a company spokesmen is only half a job done, IMO
Yair
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I noticed the appalling error in the comment about Moire in that article. It basically devalued anything else the reviewer may have said.
Its hard to find a review that is anything but a 'puff' for the product.
Actually, Uwe Steinmullers test in previous issues of the same magazine do not pull punches... even though I don't always agree with his conclusions. When he said, a few months ago, effectively, that the Canon 70-200 L IS zoom was an inadequate lens for the 1DsII I wondered what planet he was on. However, I'd prefer a reasoned argument with someone actually trying to do proper reviews than the terrible ones I generally see.
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An additional benefit for Hasselblad would of course be that the move would leave Phase One and Leaf out.
No doubt that is exactly their long term stategy. Both Phase One and Leaf should be looking at the dead MF manufacturers to build on for their own all in one packages or to sell backless bodies otherwise they will be large format only and dead in the water. Fortunately there seems to be no lack of systems/brands going for cheap if only for the blueprints and rights to the names of companies that have already thrown in the towel. Not that contax springs to mind or anything.... Of course there is Mamiya and Bronica and Rollei seem to be stuck in the mire too.
Even as competitors it would make sense for the two companies and maybe others to team together and ensure that Hasselblad are not the only medium format system still alive and well, if only so they can ensure a future...
BTW Yair, Shana Tova!
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there seems to be no lack of systems/brands going for cheap if only for the blueprints and rights to the names of companies that have already thrown in the towel. Not that contax springs to mind or anything....
The problem with Contax seems to be that Kyocera got greedy and would rather make nothing than sell the brand for something.
I totally agree with the rest of your post though. Rollei seems to be the next strongest after Hasselblad, and I am looking forward to their Photokina releases.
I'm sure Mamiya is still in the race but after the change of ownership it might take a while for them to move forward.
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BTW Yair, Shana Tova!
Thanks Ben and to you too, I hope the sun comes back tomorrow This English weather is not synched with the Jewish calander
Yair
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Thanks Ben and to you too, I hope the sun comes back tomorrow This English weather is not synched with the Jewish calander
Yair
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Shana Tova, Yair.
Edmund
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Many MF are disappearing and the few that remain alive are designing integrated (cheaper) cameras. This is the case of Mamiya, Hasselblad or Pentax... and Sinar/Jenoptik(/Rollei?).
Digital Backs Manufacturers try to survive in a shrinking market. These machines are very expensive, and the replacement and upgrading is slow. Phase One and Leaf will be the only independent manufacturers of digital backs, and I doubt they will resist as independent companies much longer...
This Photokina will be very interesting because the new generation of products (adapted to a new strategy) will be presented. Canon has a key role in this defensive strategy, and their new Pro line is important for this market and its future.
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Both Phase One and Leaf should be looking at the dead MF manufacturers to build on for their own all in one packages or to sell backless bodies otherwise they will be large format only and dead in the water. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77247\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I don't know what market share still life photography represents, but it's hardly doable without a view camera, thus requiring a DB with a universal mount.
I sure hope integrated solutions will not be what's left of MF digital offerings in the future....
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Leaf is an Eastman Kodak subsidiary; autonomous maybe but not independent at all.
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Well, I don't know what market share still life photography represents, but it's hardly doable without a view camera, thus requiring a DB with a universal mount.
I sure hope integrated solutions will not be what's left of MF digital offerings in the future....
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There are solutions available today; in a few years large sensors will be more widely available as modules, like any other piece of electronic component they will go down in priceand be easier to integrate. This is what happened with the tiny sensors used in consumer cams - anybody can set up a production line using pefab components.
Edmund
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I stumbled across this quote from November 2005, it's from Kornelius Fleischer who is Zeiss's Marketing Manager for camera optics,
"Just back from a trade show in the machine vision industry, I have seen there a square CCD sensor with an image area of 45 mm x 45 mm. And there was not one chip maker showing this device. There were those large square chips from three different companies: Atmel, Dalsa, and Kodak.
One of them hinted at having a 55 x 55 in the thinking"
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Here it is:
http://hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx (http://hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx)