Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: neil snape on August 26, 2006, 04:08:02 am
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As per request on many forums, and also due to the lack of information, I threw together a review on this printer. It should be released in a couple of weeks so this may give you some fuel to ask even more questions.
I'm a bit stuck as I only have a prototype, and older software/firmware. This review doesn't replace any out of the box reviews, nor fair comparisons. It does however show some of the attributes and intentions of the new line of pigment printers to come.
HP9180 review (http://www.neilsnape.com/HP9180_review.htm)
Ask away if you have questions.
Oh BTW HP now have images available for print sample requests. Nothing is better than a decent print in front of you to compare. This time they even have some decent images!
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Thanks Neil. Very informative review. Your past remarks on my DJ 90 have been right on , and I would offer that Mr. Snape shoots very straight and is more than just a HP fan. This is a review one can take to the bank, so to speak.
My qustion, is there a larger carriage version coming in the near future.
Bob
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Thanks Neil. Very informative review. Your past remarks on my DJ 90 have been right on , and I would offer that Mr. Snape shoots very straight and is more than just a HP fan. This is a review one can take to the bank, so to speak.
My qustion, is there a larger carriage version coming in the near future.
Bob
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Bob,
On the Epson wide format lists some post said what was to come, yet I'm told not to say anything until after Photokina.
So be it ,yet I can say that development on the Photosmart Pro side is far from over....
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Thanks Neil. Very interesting and informative review. Appreciate you sharing it with us. Looks like a very good printer indeed. These new models from HP and Canon should really shake up the pigment printer market a bit, which is good for all of us. I'm testing a Canon iPF5000 at the moment and finding a lot of strong points, but also some issues that need to be worked on, but overall a nice alternative to other 17" printers. These are exciting times for us with pigment printers looking for quality output for proofing and prints sales.
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This printer was announced in Feb 2006 at PMA and there has been a lot of HP promo but little in the way of in depth reviews. Neil's review is welcome but gives little new information. We need a rigorous evaluation of colour and monochrome performance with a spectro and Colorthink before rushing out with a cheque book.
Photokina may produce sightings of larger machines, but the 9180 experience suggests it will be well into 2007 before they are on the market.
Before then I hope this little fellow gets a thorough going over.
Cheers,
Brian,
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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I have a 9180 waiting for me at my office. (I'm currently at my summer place).
I expect to be able to review it during the first two weeks of September.
Michael
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This printer was announced in Feb 2006 at PMA and there has been a lot of HP promo but little in the way of in depth reviews. Neil's review is welcome but gives little new information. We need a rigorous evaluation of colour and monochrome performance with a spectro and Colorthink before rushing out with a cheque book.
Photokina may produce sightings of larger machines, but the 9180 experience suggests it will be well into 2007 before they are on the market.
Before then I hope this little fellow gets a thorough going over.
Cheers,
Brian,
www.pharoseditions.com.au
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=74681\")
Exactly why I was dissapointed that there were no reviews outside of Inkjet mall's.
The prototype that I have cannot be considered a serious contender for an in depth review even if I did do such reports. Yet the information contained in the notes I put up are points of view stemming from substantial testing. Others who have Epson printers will be better at reporting the in depth side of Epson details such as those from Joseph Holmes. Personally the reviews such as those by liver Vincent at photo-i are unbiased enough for my liking. Yet he is not on the development side, so you'll not see the level of comparison that you refer to above.
I made a little movie and started to post it on my .mac site when I realised that 280MB will overdo the bandwidth. Here is a zip with both the HP 9180 and Epson K3 FA/USFA that you can plug into Colorthink as I did.
Why FA? Because each time Epson fans start to criticize others they want to compare the largest gamut possible. Then they go on to say they never use Glossy media. So take a look at a real world comparison but PLEASE remember that Colorthink doesn't show lightfast years.
There are so many more factors in image quality and character that show that gamut comparisons are only one of the many tools that indicate yet do not demonstrate print quality.
I can't say anymore about Photokina yet luckily it's very soon.
[a href=\"http://homepage.mac.com/neil_snape/.Public/HP+Epson_FA_ICC.zip]http://homepage.mac.com/neil_snape/.Public...pson_FA_ICC.zip[/url]
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Can someone clarify if this printer is capable of panoramic prints like the R2400, at say 13"x44"?
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I don't know but Amazon is doing preorders for $629 with free shipping. (The free shipping is Amazon's super saver we'll get to it when we get to it god help you should you want to see this printer in your life time or in a non beaten box shipping.)
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Can someone clarify if this printer is capable of panoramic prints like the R2400, at say 13"x44"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes on PC at the driver level you can print up to 44" by setting a custom paper size.
I imagine with Qimage you'll be able to print unlimited.
I highly recommend Qimage.
For Mac custom paper size go well beyond 44" , not sure if there is a limit.
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Hehe Neal, anytime you have HP drop ship one to me with enuff ink and paper for 50 A3+ sheets I'll be delighted to do a review.
Edmund
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Hehe Neal, anytime you have HP drop ship one to me with enuff ink and paper for 50 A3+ sheets I'll be delighted to do a review.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75976\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't even have my own shipping model. Still on a prototype, the same since February.
I can say it has been 100% reliable, even after plane trips with me to presentations.
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Don't even have my own shipping model. Still on a prototype, the same since February.
I can say it has been 100% reliable, even after plane trips with me to presentations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75979\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You've done a superb job with the review.
Frankly, I think consultants and actual company staff do a better job of writing than journalists most of the time. Knowing the product pays off.
Edmund
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Holy crap! This thing is huge!
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Well, my pk and lg print head is listed as "fair". However I have to say that the heavy banding would indicate it is a little worse than that. If one ignores that banding (impossible to do, really) it is the best B+W print I've ever had pop out of an inkjet.
It is way too late to play with this any more tonite....
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Well, my pk and lg print head is listed as "fair". However I have to say that the heavy banding would indicate it is a little worse than that. If one ignores that banding (impossible to do, really) it is the best B+W print I've ever had pop out of an inkjet.
It is way too late to play with this any more tonite....
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Has it gotten any better? I sure hope so--been watching all these discussions for several weeks, trying to make a decision on which printer to go with. I need a replacement for my Canon I9000 sooner rather than later, and the HP B9180 has been sounding pretty good until your post.
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Has it gotten any better? I sure hope so--been watching all these discussions for several weeks, trying to make a decision on which printer to go with. I need a replacement for my Canon I9000 sooner rather than later, and the HP B9180 has been sounding pretty good until your post.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77472\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
JimBob, I"m doing the same. I'm planning or adding another printer with my 2200 and the HP is still in the running. Then, there will be some more new ones, it seems, introduced at Photokina this week (3800, etc.) so I am waiting until I see some shipping and then make up my mind. Glad the 9180 is shipping and some are using it so we have some real world examples altho' Neil's review was just really good. Helped me a lot.
Diane
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JimBob, I"m doing the same. I'm planning or adding another printer with my 2200 and the HP is still in the running. Then, there will be some more new ones, it seems, introduced at Photokina this week (3800, etc.) so I am waiting until I see some shipping and then make up my mind. Glad the 9180 is shipping and some are using it so we have some real world examples altho' Neil's review was just really good. Helped me a lot.
Diane
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Diane, in case you missed it, you should also have a look at Michael's review on this website.
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It is printing wonderfully. Very pleased.
I did have to run a cleaning cycle.
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It is printing wonderfully. Very pleased.
I did have to run a cleaning cycle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks so much for your response! I've now ordered a 9180 Can't wait for 2007 to come around, and whatever is announced at Photokina will be too long to come to fruition. Really had been looking at the Canon 5000, but I need to print smaller prints right now and Michael's concerns with the 5000 have given me great pause. Epson's waste of ink and other issues led me to go with the HP B9180; really need the pigment inks for photo longevity! I appreciate everyone's input on this board--it has been most helpful to those such as me who have been "lurking" but not posting.
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I have heard reports of "shipping" but have not seen it available. Any idea of when it will be "widely" available?
I will say this, I went onto the HP site and requested print samples, which they provided promptly. I was impressed. Especially with the Matte Canvas in Black and White.
Andrew W
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Excellent, useful review. I would like to read more on B&W and color text quality. Any experience here?
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Neil,
Very glad see that you mentioned that the B9180 uses a larger, 28ml, ink cartridges.
Do you have any cost per print data? Or do I take your 90 A3 prints and the cost of 8 ink cartridges then do the math?
8 x US $29, discounted = $232 so 90 prints have an ink cost of $2.58
A3 -- 297 x 420 mm -- 11,7 x 16,5 in or .124 sq m, 193 sq in.
This implies that an 8"x12" has an ink cost of almost $2 which seems high.
thanks in advance, Nigel
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There is some print numbers in this guy's B9180 blog....
http://www.cliffaddy.com/b9180.html (http://www.cliffaddy.com/b9180.html)
Other really good info in there, too.
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Neil,
Very glad see that you mentioned that the B9180 uses a larger, 28ml, ink cartridges.
Do you have any cost per print data? Or do I take your 90 A3 prints and the cost of 8 ink cartridges then do the math?
8 x US $29, discounted = $232 so 90 prints have an ink cost of $2.58
A3 -- 297 x 420 mm -- 11,7 x 16,5 in or .124 sq m, 193 sq in.
This implies that an 8"x12" has an ink cost of almost $2 which seems high.
thanks in advance, Nigel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This can't be correct - there should be something wrong with the base data. For one thing, it is unlikely that all cartridges get exhausted at the same rate - I've never seen that happen on an Epson printer and there is no logic supporting such an event on any other printer; secondly, if those 90 prints were made after the printer's first charge-up, it is more than likely that a substantial amount of those cartridges were used for initial chasrging and not for printing. Under these conditions unless you measured the remaining ink after charge-up and before printing there is no way to know how much ink was used for charging and how much for prints. Finally, a good period of running time is needed to make sure the data is reliable.
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There is some print numbers in this guy's B9180 blog....
http://www.cliffaddy.com/b9180.html (http://www.cliffaddy.com/b9180.html)
Other really good info in there, too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just read that blog - bears out what I said above on the costing issues. But the other information in there is cause for concern. By the way, if in fact the ink costs per print turn out to be about one dollar per 8*10, this looks to be substantially more than my Epson 4800 is costing me, even with cleaning cycles and clogs. As of September 29th my cumulated total cost of ink per print is 55 Canadian cents per 54 square inches of paper coverage (i.e. a 6 x 9 inch print on an 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper). I don't know how much actual coverage these posters are printing on a letter-size sheet, so this comparison is a bit uncertain, but my data for my Epson 4800 is totally unambiguous.
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The 4800 is cheaper to print than the 9180. There is more waste on the Epson but the 110 ml carts are going to make cost per copy less. If you change to and from matte media you're going to do better by having other than Epson.
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The 4800 is cheaper to print than the 9180. There is more waste on the Epson but the 110 ml carts are going to make cost per copy less. If you change to and from matte media you're going to do better by having other than Epson.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just to make sure there's no confusion about the data, based on what is said above, the Epson 4800 appears to be less expensive for ink INCLUDING for the waste. The qualification is that the data for the HP is uncertain because the methodology for evaluating ink consumption per sq. in. is not properly articulated.
Regarding the last sentence above, it is premature to come to this conclusion, because Epson has just announced the 3800 and they claim that it will waste only a few ml of ink switching between matte and non-matte papers. That remains to be tested once production models are in use.
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That's just based on a good idea of what it costs per cartridge and cost per volume.
cycling and cleaning is excessive with Piezo heads. I don't believe you can simply reduce it just like that so unless there is some miracle it sounds like a marketing idea knowing that clients are tired of the necessary maintenance of Piezo heads.
It is also considering that the prices on the Epson carts are not MSRL whereas the 9180 is just out. When the 9180 cart price falls they will come closer together which is great for users.
The competition for the 9180 is the 2400 obviously and in that circle the 9180 does a fine job of producing extremely lightfast prints at a low entry level price, with reasonably priced consumables with good efficiency.
While here I would like to remind readers that cost per ml and cost per print has to consider the consequences of sporadic printing. For example on the Epson printers one can plug in 220ml cartridges. The cost per ml goes down , but if you don't print consistently your repeatability also goes out the window. For a printer like the 9180 28ml (Europe) 27ml elsewhere, are correctly sized for trouble free printing, very high rate of repeatability. some things make sense for their intended clients, some don't.
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Neil, I know where you are coming from, but it is like I said: when the dust settles and when those users who know how to do it properly will have had enough time to SCIENTIFICALLY and TRANSPARENTLY MEASURE ink consumption on a standardized basis for both the HP 9180 and the forthcoming Epson 3800 we'll know which costs less in ink per square inch, all factors included. Until then it is an open horse race, at least on that parameter. The Epson 2400/4800 is history.
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I found this HP document via an other web site: HP Printer: Photo page yield details
http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/us/en/...9180/photo.html (http://h10060.www1.hp.com/pageyield/us/en/PSPB9180/photo.html)
If the URL is chopped, search on: B9180 Photo page yield details
Based upon the numbers on that page, Light Gray is the killer
HP B9180 Printer cost each 1/3 off list cost per 11x17 11x17 pages 4x6 pages
HP 38 Photo Black Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.1602 180.96 1410
HP 38 Magenta Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.0452 641.71 5000
HP 38 Cyan Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.0481 603.21 4700
HP 38 Yellow Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.2689 107.81 840
HP 38 Light Magenta Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.4107 70.59 550
HP 38 Light Cyan Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.1779 162.99 1270
HP 38 Light Gray Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.7059 41.07 320
$1.8168 est total cost of ink for 11x17
$1.3990 est total cost of ink per sq ft
$15.0602 est total cost of ink per sq m
Supplemental cartridges
HP 38 Matte Black Pigment Ink Cartridge $28.99 $0.0753 385.03 3000
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I have heard reports of "shipping" but have not seen it available. Any idea of when it will be "widely" available?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77541\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just received my B9180 today. Ordered two days ago on the HP Small Business store and shipped 2 day FedEx. Amazon still says 2-4 weeks however. Amazon does have ink in stock, however.
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$1.3990 est total cost of ink per sq ft
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is VERY close to the cost of ink per square foot that I have measured for my Epson 4800 over the period November 1 2005 to October 2, 2006 $1.47 Canadian). My cost figure includes all the ink expended on cleanings/maintenance except the initial charge-up which my accounting model includes in the investment cost of the machine.
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Thanks for the review! My Epson 2200 just gave up (clogged print head) and I'm hoping to buy a new printer with a user replaceable head. HP looks like a good option.