Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: shadowblade on August 03, 2017, 02:36:25 pm

Title: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 03, 2017, 02:36:25 pm
http://www.canonrumors.com/three-new-tilt-shift-lenses-on-the-way-cr2/ (http://www.canonrumors.com/three-new-tilt-shift-lenses-on-the-way-cr2/)

I'm presuming two of them will be replacements for the antiquated TS-E 45 and TS-E 90 (maybe the same focal lengths, maybe something similar like 50mm and 100mm - who knows).

But, apparently, there will also be a third one. Hoping for something around the 200mm range, or an updated, even-sharper 24mm.

Hopefully they'll record full shift/tilt data in the EXIF, making it possible to create correction profiles for CA (especially) and whatever minor distortion they may have.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: NancyP on August 03, 2017, 06:06:11 pm
Has there ever been a 200-ish mm tilt-shift lens for the 24 x 36 mm film/sensor format?
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 04, 2017, 01:16:44 am
Has there ever been a 200-ish mm tilt-shift lens for the 24 x 36 mm film/sensor format?

No.

But neither was there a 17mm (or other wider-than-24mm) tilt-shift when the TS-E 17 came out.

A 200mm tilt-shift wouldn't even need to be substantially larger than any other 200mm lens, particularly if it's f/4 rather than f/2.8. At such focal lengths, the main thing dictating the size of the lens and its elements is the size of the aperture required - in the case of a 200mm f/4, it would be 50mm.

Hopefully they will be used as selling points for a 5Ds2 announcement, just like supertelephotos and other action lenses are often used for action body announcements. Although, as manual-focus lenses, they can be mounted onto Sony, Leica and several other lens mounts with no loss of function.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Rado on August 04, 2017, 05:16:33 am
Good news, although not for my wallet. The 45 & 90mm update is long overdue.

As for a 200mm T/S - what would be the use case for that?
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 04, 2017, 06:36:49 am
Good news, although not for my wallet. The 45 & 90mm update is long overdue.

As for a 200mm T/S - what would be the use case for that?

Landscapes.

Getting the entire scene in focus is always a challenge at longer focal lengths. And, with increasing sensor resolution, you can't just stop down to f/16 or f/22 if you want to retain fine detail and microcontrast. Tilt is a good option for getting around that.

Long tilt-shifts can also be good for creative group portraits, as they allow you to arrange subjects such that the line or plane formed by the subjects' faces do not have to be parallel to the sensor plane, while retaining sharp focus on all of them.

Generally, as focal length increases, shift becomes less useful (less geometrical distortion to correct when fixing verticals or stitching panoramas, so there's less lost when using a normal lens compared with at shorter focal lengths) but tilt becomes much more useful. A camera with a tiltable sensor would be ideal, but, since Canon is unlikely to introduce that any time soon, a long tilt-shift would be the next-best thing.

I also hope these lenses come with an inbuilt tripod foot, like the Schneider tilt-shifts - it would make them even better for stitching, without having to turn to third-party solutions.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: viewfinder on August 04, 2017, 06:54:51 am
long focus tilt can be very useful for some technical subjects and natural history work where close ups of small animals and insects are required without approaching the subject too closely.   Also, some medical work notably in operating theatre where depth of field is often difficult and it's important not t get in the way of the surgical team.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: NancyP on August 04, 2017, 10:58:17 am
Does anyone actually use pro photographers in the operating room anymore?  ???
What with endoscopes and their cameras, and with residents, med students, and circulating nurses with cell phones or with the surgeon's DSLR, I haven't seen a pro photographer in an OR for many years (at least for documenting surgical technique, where an amateur photographer with a grasp of the procedure is likely to make a more useful video than a pro photographer who doesn't know specific surgical planning behind the procedure).

Dentists!! However, dentists are better off using as small a format as reasonable.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: davidgp on August 05, 2017, 03:56:45 am
Ok, this means I need to rush my idea of selling my copy of the 24 TS-E II after I return from Iceland... if they release a 24 TS-E III, the second hand value of the II version will take a hit (unless version III goes close to 3000... not strange in this market with the prices going up...)


Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on August 05, 2017, 08:36:21 am
Ok, this means I need to rush my idea of selling my copy of the 24 TS-E II after I return from Iceland... if they release a 24 TS-E III, the second hand value of the II version will take a hit (unless version III goes close to 3000... not strange in this market with the prices going up...)

What makes you think they will replace the II with a III?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: davidgp on August 05, 2017, 09:03:37 am
What makes you think they will replace the II with a III?

Cheers,
Bart

My luck :), no reason in particular, just trying to put myself in the worst case scenario. I want to sell this lens because I'm not using it too much and I was planning to do this for several months now, just too lazy to do it, this will force me a bit.

I think Canon will create a really good TS-E group of lenses if they release something like a 135 TS-E together with the new versions of 90 and 45 mm.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Rajan Parrikar on August 07, 2017, 08:24:11 pm
I think Canon will create a really good TS-E group of lenses if they release something like a 135 TS-E together with the new versions of 90 and 45 mm.

Regards,

David

Yes, those 3 are coming. Can't wait!

http://www.canonrumors.com/new-tilt-shift-lenses-to-be-45mm-90mm-135mm-cr2/

Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: davidgp on August 08, 2017, 03:18:45 am
Yes, those 3 are coming. Can't wait!

http://www.canonrumors.com/new-tilt-shift-lenses-to-be-45mm-90mm-135mm-cr2/

I need to start a rumors/predictions site :D
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 08, 2017, 08:03:22 am
Yes, those 3 are coming. Can't wait!

http://www.canonrumors.com/new-tilt-shift-lenses-to-be-45mm-90mm-135mm-cr2/

Looking forward to them!

135mm is perhaps a bit close to 95mm (easily achievable with a 1.4x TC) - I would have thought something in the 150-200mm range would be ideal, to maximise the range covered by TS-E lenses - but, even so, it's good to have tilt-shift coverage from 17mm to 200mm (including a 1.4x TC on the 135mm).
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Rajan Parrikar on August 09, 2017, 11:20:58 am
Another update. All three are going to have Macro capability.

http://www.canonrumors.com/clarification-corrections-on-the-upcoming-new-lenses-from-canon-cr2/
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 09, 2017, 12:07:35 pm
As of late, Canon are coming up with really interesting lenses. And folks still say that they are "boring" and not "innovative":)

That 135 TSE macro could finally convince me to buy an adaptor to use it on my Sony A7:)
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 09, 2017, 05:05:07 pm
As of late, Canon are coming up with really interesting lenses. And folks still say that they are "boring" and not "innovative":)

That 135 TSE macro could finally convince me to buy an adaptor to use it on my Sony A7:)

If it's sharp enough to take TCs without noticeable loss of IQ, the 135mm could end up being an excellent macro lens with bo equivalent.

Put a 1.4x TC on it and it becomes a 189mm f/5.6, with 0.7x maximum magnification. Put a 2x TC and it becomes 270mm f/8, with 1x reproduction. Small apertures, for sure,  but fairly typical for macros of small subjects. And the tilt function would be invaluable for getting even more of the subject in focus.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: alatreille on August 10, 2017, 05:25:23 pm
I do hope these 'macro' lenses are still pretty good (read excellent) at infinity.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Shiftworker on August 28, 2017, 05:39:02 am
Ok, this means I need to rush my idea of selling my copy of the 24 TS-E II after I return from Iceland... if they release a 24 TS-E III, the second hand value of the II version will take a hit (unless version III goes close to 3000... not strange in this market with the prices going up...)


Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk
The 24mm TS-E II is as near to perfection for a 24mm lens as it's possible to get  - unless they can make it significantly smaller and lighter with no loss of optical performance I very much doubt there are plans to 'upgrade' it. The 17mm is not as good - the focus shift and warped plane of focus could be sorted to bring it nearer to the performance of the 24mm. The 45mm has desperately needed upgrading for years. I'm finding it difficult to see a requirement for shift lenses in longer focal lengths as the converging verticals are far less extreme and easily corrected in software with little loss of quality. Tilt is obviously an advantage for macro or studio work but there are plenty of very good MF lenses at this focal length that can be put on tilt adapters - The Hassy 120 macro Planar being the obvious choice. Please Canon  - get that 45mm TS-E II out of the door ASAP!
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: kers on August 28, 2017, 06:58:57 am
The 24mm TS-E II is as near to perfection for a 24mm lens as it's possible to get  - unless they can make it significantly smaller and lighter with no loss of optical performance I very much doubt there are plans to 'upgrade' it. The 17mm is not as good - the focus shift and warped plane of focus could be sorted to bring it nearer to the performance of the 24mm. The 45mm has desperately needed upgrading for years. I'm finding it difficult to see a requirement for shift lenses in longer focal lengths as the converging verticals are far less extreme and easily corrected in software with little loss of quality. Tilt is obviously an advantage for macro or studio work but there are plenty of very good MF lenses at this focal length that can be put on tilt adapters - The Hassy 120 macro Planar being the obvious choice. Please Canon  - get that 45mm TS-E II out of the door ASAP!

i bought my nikon 45pce in 2009 so that is 8! years ago. (that one still can do its trick at 46 MP ...)
Even back then the Canon people were complaining about the 45TS lens- yes it is about time they updated the lens.
On the nikon side the 24mm PCE is due for an update. The 19mm PCE is really excellent, but with a price.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 28, 2017, 07:43:12 am
The 24mm TS-E II is as near to perfection for a 24mm lens as it's possible to get  - unless they can make it significantly smaller and lighter with no loss of optical performance I very much doubt there are plans to 'upgrade' it. The 17mm is not as good - the focus shift and warped plane of focus could be sorted to bring it nearer to the performance of the 24mm. The 45mm has desperately needed upgrading for years. I'm finding it difficult to see a requirement for shift lenses in longer focal lengths as the converging verticals are far less extreme and easily corrected in software with little loss of quality. Tilt is obviously an advantage for macro or studio work but there are plenty of very good MF lenses at this focal length that can be put on tilt adapters - The Hassy 120 macro Planar being the obvious choice. Please Canon  - get that 45mm TS-E II out of the door ASAP!

It can do better:

- Tilt and shift settings recorded in EXIF, for automatic correction of aberrations via profile (especially CA when shifted - this is a big one)
- Increased edge sharpness when shifted - the edges could be better, as they are currently outdone by both the Canon 11-24 and Sony 12-24 at the same off-axis angle (i.e. set to 14-15mm).
- 7 or 9 aperture blades instead of 8, for better sunstars

The 17mm is incredibly good, considering the off-axis angle of the shifted edges - equivalent to a 10.2mm lens. Still, automatic aberration correction would make a significant difference.

Still, 8 years of lens development goes a long way - Canon has advanced leaps and bounds in UWA lens sharpness in that time, and updated versions would undoubtedly do a lot better. Remember the 16-35L II and 14L II, with their nearly-unusable corners?
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: alan_b on August 28, 2017, 01:33:35 pm
Great to see new TSEs!  It'll be interesting to see the price/outer image circle performance balance on these. 

The 135 is surprising - I still wish someone would come out with a new 35mm though.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 29, 2017, 01:59:17 am
Interesting options indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: kers on August 29, 2017, 09:57:19 am
My complements to Canon!
They now have the best serie of TS lenses of any system.
Only the 19mm PCE on Nikon side will be better and you can use that on a Canon as well ( fixed aperture as i understand)
and these lenses are missing in MF where they are most needed.
It is a pity Zeiss did not make any TS lenses for full frame.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: marc aurel on August 29, 2017, 10:23:07 am
MTF charts for the new TS-Es, and old ones for comparison. From the Canon Hognkong website (http://www.canon.com.hk/en/product/catalog/productitem.do?categoryID=25&seriesID=49).
Of course as always with Canon - computed. And for the TS-Es one would really like to see the shifted image area. But for a first orientation...
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 29, 2017, 10:33:40 am
MTF charts for the new TS-Es, and old ones for comparison. From the Canon Hognkong website (http://www.canon.com.hk/en/product/catalog/productitem.do?categoryID=25&seriesID=49).
Of course as always with Canon - computed. And for the TS-Es one would really like to see the shifted image area. But for a first orientation...

Hoping for a tilt-shift shootout and MTF comparison by Lensrentals. Including the shifted area, of course - that's the whole point of buying a tilt-shit.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: kers on August 29, 2017, 10:42:19 am
Hoping for a tilt-shift shootout and MTF comparison by Lensrentals. Including the shifted area, of course - that's the whole point of buying a tilt-shit.
I am sure the 90 and 135mm will do fine shifted -since the 85mm PCE still does fine and is 10 years old and even the 90mm did OK)
The 50mm is the only question
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Harold Clark on August 30, 2017, 11:33:18 am
It is good to see some new/updated TS lenses, but I am disappointed that Canon still has no 35mm TS. I had a 35mm TS in FD mount in the film days and it was an excellent performer. A 35mm would fill the gap nicely between 24mm and 50 mm.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: shadowblade on August 30, 2017, 12:14:01 pm
It is good to see some new/updated TS lenses, but I am disappointed that Canon still has no 35mm TS. I had a 35mm TS in FD mount in the film days and it was an excellent performer. A 35mm would fill the gap nicely between 24mm and 50 mm.

A 24mm with 1.4x TC is practically a 35mm.

More often than not, you're also not using the very edges of the 24mm image circle, so, corner-to-corner when shifted, the 24mm/1.4x TC combo is often actually sharper than the 24mm tilt-shift alone. Worse centre, but better corners, so generally better for landscapes and other subjects requiring across-the-frame sharpness.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: alatreille on August 30, 2017, 07:42:05 pm
I sort of wish the 90 and 135 had more than 12mm of movement.

Other than that, they are going to fill some needs for me.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on August 30, 2017, 08:05:28 pm
I sort of wish the 90 and 135 had more than 12mm of movement.

Other than that, they are going to fill some needs for me.

12 mm at those longer focal lengths, is more effective than it is at shorter focal lengths.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: marc aurel on August 31, 2017, 03:24:54 am
12 mm at those longer focal lengths, is more effective than it is at shorter focal lengths.

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart,
12mm is half of the image height, no matter what focal length. So I don't understand what you refer to when you say "more effective".
I agree with Andrew - for longer focal lengths I would prefer more shift than 12mm - for details of facades for example. For shorter focal lengths 12mm is plenty for my needs.
Regards - Marc
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: NancyP on September 01, 2017, 11:18:40 am
These lenses look perfect for still life close-up and macro photographers (of products, food, flowers, etc) using tripods. There might be a large learning curve for the insect photographers who shoot hand-held with flash.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: kers on September 01, 2017, 11:45:43 am
...There might be a large learning curve for the insect photographers who shoot hand-held with flash.

+ focus stacking can only be done manually- an advantage for AF
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Harold Clark on September 03, 2017, 10:51:23 am
A 24mm with 1.4x TC is practically a 35mm.

More often than not, you're also not using the very edges of the 24mm image circle, so, corner-to-corner when shifted, the 24mm/1.4x TC combo is often actually sharper than the 24mm tilt-shift alone. Worse centre, but better corners, so generally better for landscapes and other subjects requiring across-the-frame sharpness.

Thanks for pointing that out, it is worth investigating.
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: Shiftworker on October 30, 2017, 04:12:31 am
I've been waiting for the 50mm for over a decade and now it's here I'm not so sure a macro lens will be optimal for flat field at infinity for architecture and landscape (will await real world tests) and also I've just seen the pre-order prices here in the UK which are significantly more than the 17 and 24mm - ouch!
Title: Re: New tilt-shifts on the way
Post by: kers on November 16, 2017, 05:25:30 am
I've been waiting for the 50mm for over a decade and now it's here I'm not so sure a macro lens will be optimal for flat field at infinity for architecture and landscape (will await real world tests) and also I've just seen the pre-order prices here in the UK which are significantly more than the 17 and 24mm - ouch!
a 50mm f2.8 MF lens... would cost less... It must+should be stellar.
Yes a flat field is one of the worries... but it should have it considering the audience.