Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Ed Jack on August 22, 2006, 08:35:10 am
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It was nice to get a common sense approach to these two backs and the initial "brand bashing" of the owners of previous generation backs from these companies seems to be long dead (it did happen on this site and others) - which is good.
It has to also be said that the P45 has been shown to be acceptable up to about 30 minute exposures - an order of magnitude better than any previous Phase one back, or any other back on the market. So for some photographer, this upper exposure limit - which I believe is more like 20-30 seconds on the Aptus 75 is a major consideration too - in this instance Michael did not mention this pint. As a landscape photographer I can think of many occasions where my exposures exceed 20 seconds, which might discount even the best Dalsa chipped device from my purchasing decisions (are these chips inherently worse at long exposures) ?
Furthermore Hasselblads "blanking" of Michael’s offer to review a sample is pure stupidity when he is regarded as the pre-eminent figure for doing this on the web or otherwise. We all just assume that they (Hassie) are afraid of being "shown up" by what Phase one can achieve with ostensibly the same chip ?
Maybe the new eMotion deivce is worth a look too - most people say it compares favourably with teh Leaf (although it does not offer iso 800).
any comment ?
Dr Jack
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Michael's report noted the overriding importance of dynamic range in landscape photography in inherently contrasty light, but did not compare the Aptus 75 with the Phase P45 on this parameter. However, in the the exposures comparing the two backs at ISO 50, it appears that the Aptus 75 held detail in the highlights in the foliage much better than the P45. I wonder if the raw captures are consistent with that perception. In short, is the P45 more apt to blow out the highlights?
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The Aptus-75 and the eMotion both have 32 second maximum exposures settings.
I'm not sure wether this has to do with the design of the sensor(Dalsa) or wether it's in the software.
Does the h2/39 allow for 30 minutes?
They use the same Kodak sensor as phase and Imacon(Hassy)
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".....Does the h2/39 allow for 30 minutes?
They use the same Kodak sensor as phase and Imacon(Hassy)..."
Hasselblad H39 allows 32sec exposure.
http://hasselblad.com/Archive/documents/Do...-39_English.pdf (http://hasselblad.com/Archive/documents/Downloads_files/Productsheets/Hasselblad_H2D-39_English.pdf)
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The most surprising result of the current study was the high iso noise. I had thought from some of the comparisons I have seen, that the aptus was far superior in this department. I have taken my aptus out in the sun and it can be hard to see the LCD at times.
I guess it was like the sunglasses I bought the other day.. they worked great in the store but not so good when outside.
I drive a low end Mercedes and never the two vehicles MR discussed in his analogy so for me not too helpful.
Nonetheless I do appreciate the efforts and the evaluation. mark
It was nice to get a common sense approach to these two backs and the initial "brand bashing" of the owners of previous generation backs from these companies seems to be long dead (it did happen on this site and others) - which is good.
It has to also be said that the P45 has been shown to be acceptable up to about 30 minute exposures - an order of magnitude better than any previous Phase one back, or any other back on the market. So for some photographer, this upper exposure limit - which I believe is more like 20-30 seconds on the Aptus 75 is a major consideration too - in this instance Michael did not mention this pint. As a landscape photographer I can think of many occasions where my exposures exceed 20 seconds, which might discount even the best Dalsa chipped device from my purchasing decisions (are these chips inherently worse at long exposures) ?
Furthermore Hasselblads "blanking" of Michael’s offer to review a sample is pure stupidity when he is regarded as the pre-eminent figure for doing this on the web or otherwise. We all just assume that they (Hassie) are afraid of being "shown up" by what Phase one can achieve with ostensibly the same chip ?
Maybe the new eMotion deivce is worth a look too - most people say it compares favourably with teh Leaf (although it does not offer iso 800).
any comment ?
Dr Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I guess one question i had was using with the Hassy system did either of the backs freeze up or cause any kind of error messages??? Mark
The most surprising result of the current study was the high iso noise. I had thought from some of the comparisons I have seen, that the aptus was far superior in this department. I have taken my aptus out in the sun and it can be hard to see the LCD at times.
I guess it was like the sunglasses I bought the other day.. they worked great in the store but not so good when outside.
I drive a low end Mercedes and never the two vehicles MR discussed in his analogy so for me not too helpful.
Nonetheless I do appreciate the efforts and the evaluation. mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74165\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Man did Phase and Leaf get a pass on this one.
Especially Phase.
I don't know who the intended market is for $30,000 camera backs and maybe it's rich dentists and Wannabe Westons, but I would bet the majority of these cameras are sold to working professionals.
People that shoot 60 gigs a day, have to make jpegs fpo, web galleries and deliver final files in days, sometimes hours.
I've use the Aptus 22 for a little over a year and I love it, but I can honestly say from experience that you can't really learn these systems in a week, much less a day and you can't tell how they really perform until your under pressure in a real high production situation.
To begin with anybody that spends this kind of money on a camera usually has to show the image to someone to get input, feedback or god forbid approval and I have yet to meet a person that can use the Phase LCD to tell anything other than the basic composition.
That said, if you take 60 gigs of images and drop them into LC10 and try to batch adjust and process these images your going to be in for a world of hurt, even if your running the latest Quad 5.
Both these companies make good equipment that is robust, pretty well thought out and in my genre worth the money, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and that doesn’t mean that they are exactly equal.
Anyone that owns a medium format back and camera will have a lot of instances where they have to tether to a computer.
Phase's C-1 may be the gold standard of software, but working portable with a powerbook the thumbnails load slow, the previews even slower and the capture rate can crawl to a standstill. In my world crawling to a standstill can cost $5,000 an hour or more.
Consequently Leaf's old software V-8 allows you to shoot very fast and preview quickly to a power book with minimal slowdowns, even when shooting hundreds of images to a single folder, even to an ancient G4 powerbook pulling a 30" monitor.
These are the things a prospective buyer needs to know and any real test of this equipment should address.
Shooting and pixel examining is one thing but can these backs let you get the shot and more importantly can you confirm you have the shot before going on to something better?
The Phase LCD works in bright sunlight? Well you can see it in bright sunlight but judging your shot well enough to know you have it, like focus, highlights, collapsed shadows, I don't think so, not unless you put it in a computer.
The Leaf LCD doesn't work in bright sunlight? I chuckled at that one. I've shot it on white rooftops in Miami, mid day in Jamaica and just cupping my hand gave me a better view than even the canon lcd's so to say that the Leaf lcd is really for inside or shaded areas is like saying it would be better to always shoot with the sun behind you to cut lens flare.
I'll admit I'm partial to the Leaf because I like the company and use the product but would move to another back in a heartbeat if it made my photography better, my workflow easier or faster.
Workflow is not addressed at all in this "test" and anyone that shoots for a living can tell you digital editing, processing, storage and archiving is getting to be a full time job. I know, because as of today I have 40 terabytes of stored and archived data, representing millions of dollars of production.
Raw conversion also weighs heavily in the decision of anyone purchasing one of these systems. C-1 is robust and full featured and probably does more than any one software, though with Phase C-1 is pretty much your only real choice and the software is so heavy that it takes a lot of computer to run it fast.
As I've stated Leaf's LC10 is still a work in progress (a very long progress) and way behind C-1 in functionality, but since the Leaf offers an in file Tiff for previewing, I-view and Photo Mechanic allow for very fast editing, sorting and file naming and Leaf had the foresight to open their file to other software developers a long time ago, so processing options in C-1 range from pscs, CS2, Raw Developer, LC10, Leaf V-8 and Lightroom.
To this day Leaf V-8 is amazingly stable and the fastest tethering software for any digital system I have used.
Still, it doesn’t matter to me what anyone purchases, but I do think that any test of these very important systems should be more than a few frames at different iso's.
There are so many genre's and instances where these cameras will be used in the real world that it is impossible to test every situation, but any examination should test highlights, intentional flare, high iso, over/under exposure, client review on the camera, a powerbook or a desktop, setup, workflow and mixed light Processing options and post production should also be tested with large volumes of images in multiple lighitng and exposure changes.
In my opinion, these products are not exactly equal. If I was a digital tech I would use a Phase, as it requires a Tower to run fast , a computer monitor to give any type of useable preview and a thorough understanding of the software. This is the perfect business model for a digital technician.
As a photographer the Leaf is my choice. It offers fast tethering, even to a powerbook, a workable lcd and many options on processing, which equates to having multiple labs and multiple films. If you work in photoshop cs 1 or 2 you can process a file on a 17” G-4 powerbook in 11 seconds, on a G5 Quad in 5 and with a much quicker learning curve. Phase processing is double that time and when your working thousands of files, it adds up quickly.
In regards to the portable setup of these two systems, the Phase looks easier, but is also more limited, sending most of the tasks to post processing.
With the Aptus, the controls are intuitive and more importantly allow for very customized settings. Iso, white balance, even specific setting to a color chart with exact accuracy.
With the Aptus you also have highlight and shadow warnings, focus check, and using V-8 can load very specific settings to the cf card or Digital Drive.
In medium format with the file sizes so large every minute you spend upfront of the capture can save hours one the backend.
Somewhere, someday, someone is really going to test these systems side by side for not just hours but days and publish the results of how well these cameras work in the real world of professional photography.
If I was Leaf and/or Phase I would want to see a robust test from pre production to final delivery and I would want the results published to know how my product stacks up, what is needed to go forward and most important how it is received in the market.
So far nobody has done that in anything but a relaxed situation.
JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/bethany/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/bethany/)
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Shooting and pixel examining is one thing but can these backs let you get the shot and more importantly can you confirm you have the shot before going on to something better?
But you have to admit that it is commendable that a fine art landscape photographer on a landscape photography website is not telling an advertising photographer how he/she needs to do his/her work?
While I agree with your argument that real-world tests for the working photographer (including workflow assessment) aren't really available, I think that MR's findings are as they are in the context of his endeavors, taken from real-world experience. He never said you shouldn't take the car for a (week long) spin before a purchase decision. As a matter of fact, I recall him mentioning the contrary on several occasions.
Then again, I also find that the emphasis tends towards pixelpeeping lately. As an example: how many people had a MF back available on the iceland lightroom experience and what where their experiences? That might make for a small but interesting essay, no?
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I just finished a 10 day high-end catalog shoot where I had the opportunity to run both Leaf and Phase. We had two sets running, and after the first day watching the shoot crawl along because everything was tied to the Leaf a75 capture station, the photographer gave me the go ahead to setup my Phase P25 tethered to my G4 powerbook on the second set. We used it for comps and rough exposure, basically as a 20K polariod back, with final capture on the a75 to keep things consistent in output. Saved us so much time we finished a day early, and the client was thrilled.
For me it was a chance to see how both platforms, hardware and software performed, side by side. Even with the obvious differences (I would have loved to have had another tower and P45) it was a very informative experience.
I will say that if you don't know your gear inside and out before setting out on a job, you'd better hire someone that does. Having the client and/or an AD breathing down your neck while trying to sort out 'what the hell just happened' is not a pretty sight...
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That said, if you take 60 gigs of images and drop them into LC10 and try to batch adjust and process these images your going to be in for a world of hurt, even if your running the latest Quad 5.
Hi James
On AD jobs we rent the Aptus 22 for our Mamiya 645 AFDII. We did try LC10 about 3 months ago as the Digital Operator thought it was great. However as we shoot quickly tethered ( that is one of the reasons we use the Aptus 22 ) we had a lot of crashes...... Next job we went back to 8.3.4 where we have had no problems except for DO (digital operators) complaining of the three windows and not as simple as the Phase C1. My partner and I don't really care about the three windows because that is what we pay $300.00/day down here in Australia!!!!. I don't find it that complicated and would rather pay $300.00 for lighting assistants& $250.00/for a DO. I know they have had updates for LC10 but you say the speed is higher for 8? I am interested from a user point of view. By the way I have used Phase and Kodax and I feel Leaf has a beautiful quality to it.
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
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James,
Your points are are well made, and I appreciate them.
One can only test based on what one does. The days of commercial shooting are for me long past. Fortunately I only have to answer to myself these days, not clients and ADs.
There's no way therefore that I can put an MF back through its paces in the same way that a commercial shooter on assignment can. I wouldn't even try.
And, therein lies the flaw in my testing. I'm testing for people like me - those who shoot at a more considered pace, and who have quite different needs and expectations that someone like yourself.
Apparenly, according to discussions with the manufacturers, about 30% of MF back purchasers are like me (non-commercial shooters), and the other 70% are like you. But, if you add those that are not working inside the pressure cooker (such as an architectural photographer) (yes I know architecture can be high stress, been there done that, but I need an example), then I'd guess that my write-ups likely have relevance to about half the potential audience.
When I read automobile reviews in some of the car magazines, and they tell me how a 4WD vehicle does on the test track, my eyes glaze over. I want to know how it does in the snow, and mud and on 4WD trails. But that's obviously a different and more problematic type of testing.
None of this is easy.
Michael
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I have been able to keep my mouth shut about Digital backs pretty long.. since back in the RobGalbraith days.. but in the mean time I have become the lucky owner of a nice Aptus 22 in addition to my PhaseOne backs. I have been shooting PhaseOne since i first bought my H10 ages ago.. and been a loyal Phase user since. I also do all my Canon stuff in C1, so I am pretty partial to that software. ok ok.. I love it.. (PC Version)
However, some of the greatest dissapointments I have had with the Aptus is the screen..and the software. In addition I seem to have problems with a lot of noise and "wave pattern" in the files. 100 ISO is not clean at all if you compare with PhaseOne or Canon files. 50 ISO is very nice. At 200ISO it looks like someone put a radio transmitter close to the TV..
I think this might just be my unit, as others dont seem to have this problem. No matter.. I am upgrading it to a P75 already, so I will get a completely new unit when it arrives. Will update my opinion then
The LC10 software is SLOOOOOW. I think maybe it could win some price for slowness..but I guess the Lightroom betas already won that one
Its just not usable unless you have the biggest, fastest, most roided monster Mac on the planet.
When you hook up a PhaseOne back and C1 it feels like one "unity". Its just more well packaged and working from end to end. The LC10 is showing a lot of promise, but still lacks basic features...
Oh..and that fan.. I feel so stupid when it starts to power up that I have begun to play much higher music in the studio Some would say that is a good thing
Phase's C-1 may be the gold standard of software, but working portable with a powerbook the thumbnails load slow, the previews even slower and the capture rate can crawl to a standstill. In my world crawling to a standstill can cost $5,000 an hour or more.
Consequently Leaf's old software V-8 allows you to shoot very fast and preview quickly to a power book with minimal slowdowns, even when shooting hundreds of images to a single folder, even to an ancient G4 powerbook pulling a 30" monitor.
I have read this several times now from you James, but I still cant get my G4 15" to do faster than 1 shot every 10 sec. What on earth can I be doing wrong?? It must be something?? I am running v8.4.4.
Phase/C1 on the same machine performs super....
Also, shooting teethered on a PC is just SOOOO much nicer than C1 on Mac.
I truly hope Leaf will have the Win version ready soon.
The Leaf LCD doesn't work in bright sunlight? I chuckled at that one. I've shot it on white rooftops in Miami, mid day in Jamaica and just cupping my hand gave me a better view than even the canon lcd's so to say that the Leaf lcd is really for inside or shaded areas is like saying it would be better to always shoot with the sun behind you to cut lens flare.
I have to agree with Michael.. the Leaf screen is useless in even Norwegian sunlight. I wish we could get a nice screen like Canon has on one a digital back... Give the Aptus some shade and things look a lot better, but still far inferior to even some pocket camera screens. Its big.. but size dont matter. Just ask a lady what she preffer.. a big floppy one.. or a normal ready-for-action
I guess we all develop a kind of "calibration" to read what the screen is actually showing. I am maybe not there with the Leaf yet, but have no problem judging highlights etc on the Canons which I use all the time. The Phase screen is of course just patetic..
Raw conversion also weighs heavily in the decision of anyone purchasing one of these systems. C-1 is robust and full featured and probably does more than any one software, though with Phase C-1 is pretty much your only real choice and the software is so heavy that it takes a lot of computer to run it fast.
Leaf is not supported by that much more convertes than PhaseOne.
Leaf;
Leaf Capture
Raw Developer
Camera Raw
Lightroom
PhaseOne;
Capture One (both Win and Mac)
Raw Developer
Camera Raw (if direct from camera)
Also I hear that Lightroom has support in next version, but that is just a rumor. But hey, is anyone really using Lightroom in a professional setting yet..? Its slow and buggy still, and will need a couple of more versions (not betas) to get a place in my workflow.
BTW James, are you upgrading to the P75, or just staying with what is tried and true? ISO 800 on Michael's test does not look very promising as a upgrade teaser.
Ps! I do actually really like the Leaf Just some small things I would love to see fixed
Svein Erik
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I am using the non-Intel Macs, G4 power book (2g RAM), 1.67 GhZ and a desktop G5, and I agree the Leaf software mediated conversion is extremely slow. However, RAW Developer is fast and the interface is user friendly. I have compared conversions in CS2 and Raw Developer and I can extract more detail using Raw Developer. Mark
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I was one of the people highly critical of the p45 on account of lens cast. I was using the P45 with Hassy V and Schneider Digitar lenses, some of which projected unacceptable amounts of unwanted color in my images.
My criticism was directed mainly at Phase's initial failure to adequately warn me about the problem and walk me through the remedy -- the lens cast correction tool in C1.
Since then, I have switched to the H2 system and Rodenstock HR lenses. I no longer see cast on the preview. There is still some small amount of cast with most lenses, and it can be seen only after substantial image manipulation in clear areas, such as snow or sky. Also, even the small amount of cast can cause an erroneous WB reading.
So I still find it necessary to use the LCC tool to take out the cast for most images, but I no longer take a reading for every shoot or capture. I am happy enough with a single reference shot taken with each lens and recorded in C1.
I should also point out that Phase's dealer was extremely helpful and Phase support did come around at some point in the process. So, after all the grief I gave Phase over some of these pages, I must say they deserve my thanks at the end of the process for getting the problem resolved.
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I think what MR is doing is great, testing new equipment and moving from one platform to the next over short periods of time inspires the more affluent photographers to continually buy the newest stuff on the market.
This supports the manufacturers R&D efforts and helps to drive prices down. Heck, Leaf is now offering the Aptus 17 for $7K.
James Russell is dead on in his assessment of the state of MF digital. His well thought out and intuitive arguments are based on real work, high pressure commerce.
What MR fails to point out or show in his testing is that the Aptus file has significantly less noise and significantly more detail than the P45 WHEN processed in Raw Developer and to a lesser extent in Leaf Capture. As a result I find this test to be amiss and really quite irrelevent when viewed from this perspective.
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What MR fails to point out or show in his testing is that the Aptus file has significantly less noise and significantly more detail than the P45 WHEN processed in Raw Developer and to a lesser extent in Leaf Capture. As a result I find this test to be amiss and really quite irrelevent when viewed from this perspective.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Anyone who has tried to do such tests knows it is hard to get everthing right. Michael tried and should be thanked for that.
In my view, the best way to do these things though is to gather experts of each system, using the same body (and Hassy H1/H2 obviously) and lens (a Hassy 120 mm macro obviously) pointed at the same landscape subject.
Each expert will know what software is best to convert the RAW data etc...
There are probably several users of A75 and H2D around Toronto, it shouldn't be impossible to spend 1/2 day in a location close to town to re-do such a test in a rigorous way.
Regards,
Bernard
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In the real world, testing all the permutations and combinations of developers with multiple backs is an imposability.
What about the Phase One in Camera Raw and the Leaf in V8? Or The Leaf in V10 and the P45 in Lightroom? Of course we could talk about Lightroom with either vs. Capture 8 or 10 and Capture One. The possabilities are endless. ( I used a pre-pre-release version of Lightroom beta for my comparisons).
Just because I haven't tested or commented on the particular back and developer that that you favour means little to someone who may be using other combinations, particularly when they stick with the manufacturer's offering because of the need to work tethered.
Michael
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When I read automobile reviews in some of the car magazines, and they tell me how a 4WD vehicle does on the test track, my eyes glaze over. I want to know how it does in the snow, and mud and on 4WD trails. But that's obviously a different and more problematic type of testing.
None of this is easy.
Michael
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=74215\")
Michael,
I'm not a camera tester, paid or otherwise. Well let me take that back, digital capture has made me a camera tester, but only for my own edification.
Using your car analogy, when I read a car review the first things I want to know is will it completely work for me. Can I carry a suitcase, get decent service, drive fast enough to do jail time, or better yet out run the police and avoid jail time. Will buying a BMW improve my driving or just my social status?
Personally I only care about the driving because my social status was shot a long time ago.
When I read a review on two digital backs like this, once again I want to know will they work for me.
Speed is important even in nature photography where wild life, wind, even cloud formations can change rapidly. Will a P-45 tether to a power book and let me shoot at a sustained rate, will the A-75 do the same? This is especially important to a Phase user due to the issues with Phase's lcd.
Can I process these files in ANY software in rapid time, without having to buy Steve Jobs a new Cessna Citation.
To me, the most important reason for your tests is to give public exposure to the benefits and the flaws of these cameras.
I don't think any Phase review is complete without touching on the issue of the Phase LCD. Why they even bother is beyond me. I'm not Phase bashing but this is a common complaint of the Phase and one that I am sure has effected their sales.
For some reason the Phase file does not have an embedded tiff, like the Leaf so previews must be rendered in software. Maybe that is the reason the Phase lcd preview is so rough.
Also without this embedded preview using fast editing software like I-view or Photo Mechanic won't work with the Phase, but will with the Leaf as only raw files that have embedded tiffs or jpegs can be read by those image editors.
This is can be lifesaver for sorting, renaming, editing, moving, copying and deleting files quickly which is important in any genre, especially in field use.
What I-view and Photo Mechanic does today is really one of the reasons Lightroom and Aperture is entering the market (I guess). Still these functions are important.
Not to give Leaf a pass but I would have liked to see a more comprehensive use of leaf software, v-8 and LC10.
I'm not a fan of LC10 as it's slow, disconnected and to this day not very stable. In fact I believe Leaf followed Phase to make LC10 a C-1 look alike which in my thoughts is a mistake as for pure tethering , shooting and preview speed is more important than back end processing and file sorting, naming and review.
Had Leaf developed an easier interface for V-8 but kept in stripped down and in three parts as it currently is I believe that would have been a much better product and could capitalize on the fact the Leaf is known for speed in capture, previews and iso.
At least V-8 is still in release and I can use it and do on a daily basis.
The other aspect I would have liked to see is use of all third party software, iview, PM, Raw Developer, CS, CS2, lightroom.
Some of these programs are quite mature (some like lightroom still a work in progress) and in the case of cs and cs2 very fast in processing.
Having multiple converters also offers multiple looks, just like using various films and labs and we all know the benefits of this.
Personally I'm not a fan of large computers to run these cameras, either on set, on location or in post processing. New computers are expensive, but more importantly time consuming and require almost a year of release until all the bugs are worked out with all the various softwares they must run.
That is why for my work I use two G4 17" powerbooks, V-8, I-view and pscs (1). Not very forward thinking though my results are excellent, my workflow fast, my investment is minimal and most importantly my time is used for actual billing work, rather than beta testing, bug fixing and software installing.
For a long time Leaf has made their file information available to anyone that asks and converting a .mos file to a dng is a quick and easy process, allows for smaller storage, universal processing, automatic renaming and even larger embedded previews.
Phase says they support DNG though C-1 only supports a few flavors of dng, like the Leica dng, but will not process a Leaf file converted to DNG.
So what is the purpose of DNG if it is not truly universal.
Since your a big proponent of dng I was a little disappointed that DNG and open files were not mentioned in reference to these two systems.
Personally I have no agenda other than to see all of these systems get better, faster, cheaper and easier to use.
Somewhere in this thread was a mention of a $7,000 A-17. If that is true then this should be headline news as for the first time, a truly functional medium format back is available for dslr prices. This not only allows new users to step up to better quality, but also allows current mfdb users to add an inexpensive backup to their current systems.
In summary I can appreciate how difficult it must be to test these systems side, by side and come to any conclusions, still both systems offer great results but much diferent forms of operation and workflow and without real information of the back end investment requried to make these systems viable and good for the long haul leaves most potential buyers guessing.
Granted what I shoot may seem different and more pressured than the genre you work in but in many ways their similiar. Shooting busy workers in Bangledish is to me the same as shooting a $25,000 day model in Milan, except the kind ship workers don't complain about the catering.
Still, both genrres are just subject, light, composition and background and for my money (and these cameras requrie a lot of money), I must make an investment that gives me the broadest range of use, the most options and the best service after the sale.
These are the things I would like to see addressed.
Best Regards,
JR
[a href=\"http://ishotit.com/]http://ishotit.com/[/url]
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James, I love your articulated approach to M.F Digibacks. Thanks. FYI I am not sure of exact price, but A17 along with Hassey 16 MP backs do sell for under $10,000. As a matter of fact one can buy 16MP Hassey back with limited edition 500 series camera @ 11,000. Often I find that I do miss that waistlevel-viewfinder look, though sometimes it is downright neccesity, as I getting too old to sit on the ground , get up & move to a different location.
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I would like to thank James Russell as well!
I've always enjoyed reading his comments at the RG forums!
Thank you James for making my life a lot less complicated.
Your info is priceless!
Last but not least, I also have to give my support to Michael Reichmann as well!
I find his info to be very informative in a different way.
Regards,
Willem.
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Somewhere in this thread was a mention of a $7,000 A-17. If that is true then this should be headline news as for the first time, a truly functional medium format back is available for dslr prices. This not only allows new users to step up to better quality, but also allows current mfdb users to add an inexpensive backup to their current systems.
http://ishotit.com/ (http://ishotit.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74347\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just for the sake of accuracy, The Leaf Aptus 17 $7,695 deals are on refurbished product. Nothing wrong with that, all of the available Aptus 17 refurb units were sent to Israel for the process of reconditioning, and they will come with full one year warranties and be treated as new units by Leaf.
However, there is a limited supply of these - we've already placed a number of orders and I'm sure other dealers have as well. These units will sell out quickly - perhaps as soon as end of week. By the way, Leaf Valeo 17's are also available (again, limited quantities) for $5,882!
Pricing for new, in the box Aptus 17's and Valeo 17's remains $15,995 and $13,995. At least for now. So, yes - the refurb Leaf 17 pricing is a great deal. Act Now!
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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it seems Leaf users are far more vocal than Phase Owners (why?)
so just to balance things out...
very happy with my P45.
its a totally bullet proof product, has never hesitated for a moment.
Software works great too, and I hear C1 4.0 is coming out in a few weeks which should improve things even further. its an excellent combo.
the only thing we are all missing is a decent modern MF camera to put these on.
I dont care for the H series Hasselblad myself, and wish someone would step up to the plate. The backs technology is way ahead of the cameras. A $900 canon has better technology than what we are putting these $30,000 backs on...
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could not agree more...after owning both leaf and phase i have to say that the difference between all the backs is nothing compared to the difference between systems (that are still available) and the improvements being made (also goes for software) to these backs is way beyond that of the camera makers...the H1/2 is the only "new" system and i find it laughable that THIS is what mf has come to...really they are the only one left..mamiya's future is more then uncertain and rollei is (unfortunately) just a side note in the big picture (at least they still have the collectors)...and what does hasselblad do as a "marketleader"? they charge 2000 for a film back...in times when canon can come up with a camera like the new rebel xti for 799, no wonder the whole mf industry is dying...
maybe that is the problem, there are no systems to compare, so we try to find the little differences between the only gear that is actually advancing the backs...even if these differences really come down to simple personal preferences anyway...
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could not agree more...after owning both leaf and phase i have to say that the difference between all the backs is nothing compared to the difference between systems (that are still available) and the improvements being made (also goes for software) to these backs is way beyond that of the camera makers...the H1/2 is the only "new" system and i find it laughable that THIS is what mf has come to...really they are the only one left..mamiya's future is more then uncertain and rollei is (unfortunately) just a side note in the big picture (at least they still have the collectors)...and what does hasselblad do as a "marketleader"? they charge 2000 for a film back...in times when canon can come up with a camera like the new rebel xti for 799, no wonder the whole mf industry is dying...
maybe that is the problem, there are no systems to compare, so we try to find the little differences between the only gear that is actually advancing the backs...even if these differences really come down to simple personal preferences anyway...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=74490\")
Actually, right now today is probably the golden age of medium format cameras.
As stated only the H-1, Rollei and Mamiya are still in production, but v series blads, contax's, RZ's, Fujis, Bronicas are still viable and nearly all the DB manufactuer's make mounts and some kind of digital connection to the cameras and/or llenses.
Some like the Contax integrate easily as they were developed for digital in mind, others require a cable, but they are all still as viable today as they were with film and can be bought at 1/2 to 1/10th the original price.
With my Contax system I have 7 lenses from three manufactuers, which include tilt shift, F 2.0's, wide angles, auto and manual focus and including the lenses, extra bodies, finders, grips etc. am under 9 grand in total cost. New I would be way over double that and for all of these cameras there are enough supply through places like KEH for probably another 3 years.
[a href=\"http://ishotit.com/superrotator/index.htm]http://ishotit.com/superrotator/index.htm[/url]
In the case of my Contax the prices are slowly creeping back up and it digital integrates better than most of the three cameras that are still in production.
I get questioned as to why I would invest in an obsolete system, but for the price it is almost gauranteed that I won't lose near the money in depreciation as I do on the dslrs that drop to 1/2 price every 12 to 18 months.
As far as useability, I don't really think any medium format camera can be enginnered to operate as fast and easy as a dslr, but I see that as a plus rather than a negative.
with the dslr's it seems i work almost to fast, too off the cuff and with medium format I seem to slow down just enough to get more useful and thoughtful images.
There are rumors of new medium format cameras coming out and being announced soon, but even if they are delayed by a few years, we still have virtutally all the camera options for digital that we did with film, short of the range finders and the Pentax 6x7.
There must be some validity to all of this as medium format back sales are at record numbers and new product is still being designed. Leaf's Aptus 65's and 75's are back ordered, so I guess there is a strong market.
I thought at one time, with the origianl 1ds that I would never move to medium format, but after the 1ds2 and my diffiucltly with that camera and the files, I went bakc to medium format and realized how much I was missing.
Not just in image quality or even aspect ration, but in the total package of camera, framing, lens selection/look and working one system for everything.
Plus the added benfit of a 16 bit file, larger file sizes for crop and just the feel of using a camera and back that was only designed for professional use.
It is just something that has to be experienced to really understand.
JR
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As far as useability, I don't really think any medium format camera can be enginnered to operate as fast and easy as a dslr, but I see that as a plus rather than a negative.
Currently or in the future? And if so, why not?
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Currently or in the future? And if so, why not?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=74517\")
I'm not an engineer but it seems the mirror is as much an issue as anything. The H-1 has a huge mirror and ground glass but introduces a lot of slap and movement. Consequently the Contax has a smaller mirror and glass but has less movement and probably if development had been continued could have been improved.
Still how fast do you want to shoot? Everybody works differently and has different patterns.
My experience came from film and mostly medium format film, 645, 6x7, where you always left room for cropping. When I shot 35mm I shot tighter and I guess that's burned into my head.
Still when I shoot 35mm (regardless of carries, film or digital) I have always shot tighter.
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/k/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/k/[/url]
Consequently when I shot 645 I shoot looser, probably from those old film mindsets of with 2 x 1/4 there is room to crop, which still holds over from digital today.
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/beth...ges/%A9RR32.jpg (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/bethany/images/%A9RR32.jpg)
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/beth...ges/%A9RR63.jpg (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/bethany/images/%A9RR63.jpg)
Since the 1ds and 1ds2 a lot of photographers have moved over from medium format to 35mm for a lot of reasons. The ability to shoot without cords, speed and many of them have talked themselves into believing that a 35mm camera is the same as a 2 1/4 camera. I felt exactly the same, but now that I have worked with medium format digital for a year for my work I see a difference.
Though I still think the main reason for this migration to 35mm is for cost more than any one reason and had Leaf or anyone had offered a 645 back with a useable lcd and a price range of $15,000 or less, the 1ds(2) sales would have been much smaller.
The DSLR's are quite good, and I could write a book on why I think one is better than the other, but in the end you are still shooting with a format that is not that page friendly and has a smaller viewfinder and a file that is not quite as moveable as a 16 bit DB file.
Somewhere on this board somebody said Leaf owners are more vocal than other DB owners, but most of this comes from the transition many of us made from film to digital.
At first the 1ds was the first digital camera that worked as easy, if not easier than film, had a decent lcd and an affordable price point. At the time every medium format back was 4 times the price and offered very difficult portable options.
Now all the MFDB'S have lcd's CF cards and decent speed, (some better than others) though Leaf was the first with an LCD that was really useable enough to show to a client or AD so maybe that's why there seems to be more discussion from Leaf owners.
The transition from any for these cameras to a different format of brand takes time. My first 6 months of owning an Aptus I shot 75% Canon, 25% Leaf and now it is 98% Leaf, 2% Canon. Most of this comes from learning the system and getting comfortable with it's use in shooting and post production.
In the end, we are not hired for our cameras we're hired for our art and in the end you must be comfortable with what you use. For some it's a dslr for others it's medium format, though in my genre I have seen much more movement from dslr to medium format lately, which I think can be attriubted to how much better the digital backs have become.
JR
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i shoot almost only MF and love it, i have owned fuji (680, 670, 690), mamiya (RZ, 645af), hasselblad(501,555) i have worked with the H1 and i now own a 6008af system...i am sure the contax is a great system with phantastic lenses and i find it funny that prices are going UP now that they are out of production...i would not hesitate investing in a contax system, although they are "dead"...i understand the physical limitations of a larger mirror,...but there is no excuse for all the AF systems being so poor ...i mean it should be a lot easier to get a working system into a much larger and heavier body where battery life is also less of a problem...of course you can't compete with the numbers canon/nikon is selling, but it is obvious that there is simply no R&D in MF... i don't want to bash the H1/2 again, but a camera selling for ?7000 should really have multi zone AF...every point&shoot for 200 has it...i haven't seen the sinar M cameras, which have af and new lenses, but at the prices i have seen...and how long did it take for MF cameras to get built in metering? and how much did the manufacturers charge for something so simple? and still companies are going out of business or giving up on MF...somehow all this reminds me of the american car companies...
about the limited availability of the aptus backs: all the manufacturers are pretty much making them to fill orders, not before the orders are placed, the margins are not that high and the sensors are still very expensive (plus dalsa doesn't just make 1000 chips and waits for an order)...so there is always a wait, but i am sure they are not complaining about their sales....
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Just for the sake of accuracy, The Leaf Aptus 17 $7,695 deals are on refurbished product. Nothing wrong with that, all of the available Aptus 17 refurb units were sent to Israel for the process of reconditioning, and they will come with full one year warranties and be treated as new units by Leaf.
However, there is a limited supply of these - we've already placed a number of orders and I'm sure other dealers have as well. These units will sell out quickly - perhaps as soon as end of week. By the way, Leaf Valeo 17's are also available (again, limited quantities) for $5,882!
Pricing for new, in the box Aptus 17's and Valeo 17's remains $15,995 and $13,995. At least for now. So, yes - the refurb Leaf 17 pricing is a great deal. Act Now!
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve,
What's the best way to find out when refurbished leaf backs are
going to become available in the future? I'm assuming that the Aptus 17's
are already gone. Do you know anything about how extensive their refurb
process is?
Thanks,
Tony
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Steve,
What's the best way to find out when refurbished leaf backs are
going to become available in the future? I'm assuming that the Aptus 17's
are already gone. Do you know anything about how extensive their refurb
process is?
Thanks,
Tony
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tony:
The best way is to develop a relationship with a knowledgable and trusted dealer (if one has not already developed a relationship with you) who has a healthy relationship with Leaf (or whichever applicable digital back company you're interested in).
Healthy relationship meaning they sell significant amounts of the product, and demonstrate the resources, capability and commitment to selling and supporting medium/large format digital solutions. This situation lends itself to good communication with the vendor, and sometimes preferred or not so easy to get information about new products, technical troubleshooting solutions or "specials", like refurb/demo units.
Regarding Aptus 17 availability, there are actually units still available for purchase. The refurbished Valeo 17's are completed and are in the US, but some camera mounts are sold out - Hasselblad V, for one. Aptus 17's are still in Israel being re-conditioned, and are expected to arrive in the US in September, probably 1 to 2 weeks. But orders are flowing in as we speak. I wouldn't expect them to last much longer.
Unfortunately, I've never been a fly on the wall at the Israel HQ. Refurbishing or reconditioning in this situation is likely 90% testing to ensure "as-new" performance. There may be some cosmetic or superficial enhancement, depending on the condition of the unit. Yair may be able to further clarify this. The majority of these units were probably returned in pretty good condition.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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I think the Rollei 6008 is one of the most underrated systems!
It has a bundle of lenses to choose from and they are top notch,some of them are very fast,have high sync speeds and there is a tilt/shift lens.
The only problem is the issue with mounting a DB on it.
You would need a back that could rotate unless you have a back with a square sensor.
What we need is a dedicated 645 AF system from Rollei and that still accepts the full lens range!
My 2CW,
Cheers,
Willem.
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What we need is a dedicated 645 AF system from Rollei and that still accepts the full lens range!
My 2CW,
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Willem:
Stay tuned...
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Thanks to Paul Schefz,
I sorted out the rotating back issue!
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I agree that the Rollei is underrated but there are several problems.
1) Distribution is sparse in the USA
2) Very expensive
3) the lack of digital backs
Since i have a Rollei 6x9 I would have loved to have gotten the 6008 (adapter to use the same lenses with the 6x9) and a leaf digital back to fit both.
I wish Hassy would make a TS lens
I think the Rollei 6008 is one of the most underrated systems!
It has a bundle of lenses to choose from and they are top notch,some of them are very fast,have high sync speeds and there is a tilt/shift lens.
The only problem is the issue with mounting a DB on it.
You would need a back that could rotate unless you have a back with a square sensor.
What we need is a dedicated 645 AF system from Rollei and that still accepts the full lens range!
My 2CW,
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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http://ishotit.com/superrotator/index.htm (http://ishotit.com/superrotator/index.htm)
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James, a bit off topic, but can you comment on the Hartblei Superrotator? I've been considering buying one of the 35mm versions for my 1Ds. I'm actually looking for something kind of "messed up", sort of a high end lens baby. I'd like to be able to shoot with selective focus. I require reasonable sharpeness for the in focus area.
Cheers,
Ron
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I agree that the Rollei is underrated but there are several problems.
1) Distribution is sparse in the USA
2) Very expensive
3) the lack of digital backs
Since i have a Rollei 6x9 I would have loved to have gotten the 6008 (adapter to use the same lenses with the 6x9) and a leaf digital back to fit both.
I wish Hassy would make a TS lens
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mark,
the Rollei 6008 accepts the backs from Sinar,Phase and Leaf!
What a choice+ it allows the back to rotate!
Yes the lenses are expensive,but they are in their own league!
I know what system I'm getting,
Cheers,
Willem.
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Actually, right now today is probably the golden age of medium format cameras.
awww, come on James.
none of them really are modern designs, all have very old AF systems, exposure evalutation and processing power, plus they are designed to transport film! (remember that?) Once you've got used to a modern dslr, its embarrasing to step back to 1980's design MF equipment. and positively humiliating to have to put your $30,000 digital back on it.
about the only point we agree on is the value - and thats only because everyone is dumping them.
As for Contax 645 (which I use too) - you cant choose shutter speeds in fraction of an F stop - its 1/60 OR 1/30 - with nothing in between. the AF is center spot only. it turns itself off after 5 secs and is slow to wake up. it eats batteries and the lenses are just ok, but not remotely up to MF digital. And this is what I have to use? I'd happily pay 2x or 3x for something decent, modern and designed in this century.
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What i should have done is order my Leaf back to fit Rollei rather than Hassy. THere is no way to adapt a Hassy mount back to a Rollei.. Mark
Mark,
the Rollei 6008 accepts the backs from Sinar,Phase and Leaf!
What a choice+ it allows the back to rotate!
Yes the lenses are expensive,but they are in their own league!
I know what system I'm getting,
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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What i should have done is order my Leaf back to fit Rollei rather than Hassy. THere is no way to adapt a Hassy mount back to a Rollei.. Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74601\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mark:
I don't know of a way that Leaf goes on Rollei, since the mount has to come in either:
*Hasselblad H
*Hasselblad V
*Contax 645
*Mamiya 645 AFD
I'm not aware of any 3rd party adapters to these mounts for Rollei. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Phase would seem to be in the same position. To my knowledge (or lack of it), the only digital backs that go on Rollei are Sinar and Hasselblad.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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awww, come on James.
none of them really are modern designs, all have very old AF systems, exposure evalutation and processing power, plus they are designed to transport film! (remember that?) Once you've got used to a modern dslr, its embarrasing to step back to 1980's design MF equipment. and positively humiliating to have to put your $30,000 digital back on it.
about the only point we agree on is the value - and thats only because everyone is dumping them.
As for Contax 645 (which I use too) - you cant choose shutter speeds in fraction of an F stop - its 1/60 OR 1/30 - with nothing in between. the AF is center spot only. it turns itself off after 5 secs and is slow to wake up. it eats batteries and the lenses are just ok, but not remotely up to MF digital. And this is what I have to use? I'd happily pay 2x or 3x for something decent, modern and designed in this century.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74597\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I shoot 60 gigs a day with the Contax with no issue, inside out, studio, location mixed light, flash, hmi and daylight.
The 1 stop shutter is not an issue to me, but you can always go to aperture priority and it will go between full stops, using the +1 control to move it.
The auto focus on continuous I think is very, very accurate and covers 90% of anything I would shoot vertically.
The verticle grip is the best I've used, the lenses are dead ass sharp and one stop faster than anything else available.
Still if you want something designed this decade go to the H1/2. The grip is uncomfortable, no waist level finder, no tilt shifts, slower lenses and tons a mirror slap, plus every thing from lens to body must be updated with new firmware, or at least checked. But with the H-1/2 you will get your wish as it its 2x to 3x the price of the contax.
Then there's Rollei but I've seen them come and go in the U.S. market more times than Madonna.
They make a big splash and then disappear.
If the rumors are correct and Rollei is going to combine with Sinar then that's twto companies that are completely invisible in the U.S. Also anything Sinar will be 40% more in price, gauranteed.
Personally I don't care what anyoen uses, but for me the Contax is the best solution and I tried the others, actually wanted to buy an H-1, or a Rollei and couldn't get past the quirks, the cost and in the case of Rollei no clear solution for digital.
JR
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I shoot 60 gigs a day with the Contax with no issue, inside out, studio, location mixed light, flash, hmi and daylight.
The 1 stop shutter is not an issue to me, but you can always go to aperture priority and it will go between full stops, using the +1 control to move it.
The auto focus on continuous I think is very, very accurate and covers 90% of anything I would shoot vertically.
The verticle grip is the best I've used, the lenses are dead ass sharp and one stop faster than anything else available.
Still if you want something designed this decade go to the H1/2. The grip is uncomfortable, no waist level finder, no tilt shifts, slower lenses and tons a mirror slap, plus every thing from lens to body must be updated with new firmware, or at least checked. But with the H-1/2 you will get your wish as it its 2x to 3x the price of the contax.
Then there's Rollei but I've seen them come and go in the U.S. market more times than Madonna.
They make a big splash and then disappear.
If the rumors are correct and Rollei is going to combine with Sinar then that's twto companies that are completely invisible in the U.S. Also anything Sinar will be 40% more in price, gauranteed.
Personally I don't care what anyoen uses, but for me the Contax is the best solution and I tried the others, actually wanted to buy an H-1, or a Rollei and couldn't get past the quirks, the cost and in the case of Rollei no clear solution for digital.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree here with James about the Contax 645 system.
It's a great system for a great price!
The only thing wrong could be the sync speed ,however that's fixable with adding on Blad lenses.
(Am I correct in this?)
However,if there's a brand new 645 MF DB system from Germany(Rollei) that does the job,why not?
As for me,who hasn't bought into MF DB yet ,I certainly would consider having a look.
It couldn't be more expensive than the H1/H2 system.
Regards,
Willem.
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Steve I think you are right.
When i called around including KaptureGroup, I was told there was no way to hook the Leaf up to a ROllei 6008AF. I thought the previous poster was speaking of a new sliding back I was not familiar with but perhaps he was mistaken.
Mark:
I don't know of a way that Leaf goes on Rollei, since the mount has to come in either:
*Hasselblad H
*Hasselblad V
*Contax 645
*Mamiya 645 AFD
I'm not aware of any 3rd party adapters to these mounts for Rollei. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Phase would seem to be in the same position. To my knowledge (or lack of it), the only digital backs that go on Rollei are Sinar and Hasselblad.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I've been using the Sinar eMotion 22 with a Rollei 6008 for a while now and find it a wonderful combination. The buffer in the Sinarback can handle a lot of images before filling up; so much that I don't actually use compact flash cards any more. The lenses are great and if you look around you can get some real bargains. I almost forgot - the back can easily be rotated.
I use a 1DSII as well, but to be honest (with a few notable exceptions) I find the lenses rather average. I've heard that they are finally getting round to sorting this out as the camera is pretty good. I tend to use short focal lengths and wideangles on the Canon and this is where their lens range seem to be at their weakest.
By the way when I was looking for a back for the Rollei I really wanted a Leaf but since they don't fit I got the Sinar instead...
Regards,
Carl
www.alephstudio.co.uk
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awww, come on James.
none of them really are modern designs, all have very old AF systems, exposure evalutation and processing power, plus they are designed to transport film! (remember that?) Once you've got used to a modern dslr, its embarrasing to step back to 1980's design MF equipment. and positively humiliating to have to put your $30,000 digital back on it.
about the only point we agree on is the value - and thats only because everyone is dumping them.
As for Contax 645 (which I use too) - you cant choose shutter speeds in fraction of an F stop - its 1/60 OR 1/30 - with nothing in between. the AF is center spot only. it turns itself off after 5 secs and is slow to wake up. it eats batteries and the lenses are just ok, but not remotely up to MF digital. And this is what I have to use? I'd happily pay 2x or 3x for something decent, modern and designed in this century.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74597\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I'm one of the many studio photographers who wouldn't be caught dead with one of those small format cameras...
Granted, I don't do snapshots which require extensive camera electronics, I don't even need autofocus.
My main camera is a Sinar - a design dating back some 150 years - and it can not possibly be replaced for my way to work by some little plastic box with lots of buttons on it and a tiny hole of a viewfinder in the back.
When I'm in a hurry, I still have the RZ to shoot with.
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James we are *both* using the contax 645 system - so you dont need to sell it to me!
we agree its a good working choice, and amazing value right now... but it was designed aeons ago, and is just not up to the mark today. The lenses are decent workhorses, but not good enough for a modern MF digiback.
I have no wish to slam it, as its what I use - its in my bag and I'm about to go out for the day with it and the P45, BUT, I would love a freshly designed MF camera with a matrix AF system, serious digital pro quality lenses, modern power management, and full camera-digiback dialogue.
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After briefly trying James' Contax (and Super Rotator), I was all set to sell off my H1 kit, remount my Aptus, and experience focal plane shutter bliss. Really wanted the Hassy 110/2, the t/s lens, and any other coke bottle lens I could dream up. However, the cost was prohibitive to swap the mounts (2100$ in the US, about double the Euro cost really), and I have semi-refallen for the H1.
I just spent a few weeks in China with the H1/A65 combo using mostly the 80/2.8 and I was able to handhold down to about 1/60th eventually. (http://www.davidrlehman.com/shaping (http://www.davidrlehman.com/shaping)) All the way up to ISO 800 produced a very usable file (I process in RD). Brought my D2x kits as well, and wanted to leave em behind after getting back into the swing of things with the H1. Done with 35mm - hated the 1ds2 files (and I know I'm not alone on that), the proportions, etc. The Rollei 6008 looks beautiful, and those lenses...yummy. By the way, why is no one mentioning that Rollei offers a digital bundle for the 6008 that comes with a Phase P20 back?
I went with the A65 over the P30 for the LCD. And if you're not cupping it, it's difficult to see outside, but it is eminently usable, if that's your thing. I've gotten to a point with the H1/A65 where I don't check the LCD at all really, I'm confident that it delivered what I expect - and I would pay 10x what I have invested for predictability alone. I may have to massage the file later, but I know what I'm getting. So now that I rendered my initial reasoning moot, perhaps I'd reconsider the P30 (it is a frickin' tank and makes a beautiful file as well).
Now, here is my main problem with how the reviews are done. Where is the link to the forum conversation? Tons of people come here for Michael's opinion as if it were the be all/end all (and that's all well and good). However, there will always be disagreement (and agreement) and this forum here is the vehicle in which that gets passed - yet it is buried away. I had to google to find the link to it. I would like to see at the bottom of reviews a link to a discussion on the review. Issues that are being discussed here are just as important as the review itself, maybe even more so. It would also introduce people to a forum that they may not even have known existed previously.
Best,
David Lehman
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the only phase back the rollei can take is the P20 that comes with the rollei bundle...the phase backs are about 1.5mm too tall to rotate on the rollei, so phase would have had to re-engeneer the whole back, which obviously did not happen...so they went with sinar/emotion..(there was one more reason: phase only sold them the backs in large shipments, sinar does not ask for large quanities, makes it easier for rollei to keep inventory down...)
the emotion22/75 is by far the most advanced (i am not saying the best) back out there: a large buffer (ram) which has 2 advantages: shoots faster then all the others AND provides instant back-up! if you shoot a 4gig card, everything is also stored in the buffer! brilliant!
the screen: a little too small (about the size of the phase) but readable with much better color...brilliant!
from the samples i have seen, the quality is just as good as phase and leaf and the software is just as good as leaf, but not as good as C1....i believe it also shoots DNG?
so what is missing? a solid marketing hype in the US...
leaf and phase really made the whole discussion about which system is the best...because once you are locked into one or the other oyu are also locked into a system...the argument that the backs have to fit just so to provide results: anyone who has worked with hassV and RZ/RBs know how "tight" film backs fit after years of changing backs fast....hasselblad, the only camera manufacturer sells backs that fit on all systems!
about rollei: you can buy them at B&H, Samys, Adorama and many smaller stores, a 6008af outfit is more then a mamiya 645afDII outfit and less then H2 outfit, so i am not sure in which way they are so expensive....
the lenses are superb, half synch up to 1/1000...noone else has that, they are in line with hasselblad lenses pricewise and a much larger range...
there is the X-act II which accepts all 6000 accessories and lenses and makes S/F lenses obsolete (but they do have one anyway)....noone else has anything even remotely close (in terms of system integration)...
check ebay for prices, the 6000system accepts accessories from the last 35? years including lenses...you can literally buy a whole system for the price of a mamiya system and it will accept imacon/hasselblad and sinar/emotion backs...
about the 645 rumors (which i have been hearing for a year now and hope fully finally come true): one of the things i hate the most about the H1/2 is that i shoot 90% vertical, so unless rollei comes out with a vertical 645 (talk about mirror issues!), i am not sure in which way it will improve on my 6008...the lenscoverage has to be the same, but to rotate you have to rotate the camera, which i don't like...
but this is rollei, who have been first in pretty much every MF advancement (metering, af,...) so they might come with something really interesting...
so i hope for a: rollei 645af all in one digital like the ZD, but 16bit, accepting all rollei lenses...with the emotion end (oled screen, built in buffer, dalsa chip, 22mpix)....and a marketing campaign to match...i am not holding my breath...with the new sinar M out (talk about expensive!!!) i just can't see sinar working that closely with rollei to cut into their own market...
so maybe just a 645, smaller and more compact then 6008...
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James we are *both* using the contax 645 system - so you dont need to sell it to me!
we agree its a good working choice, and amazing value right now... but it was designed aeons ago, and is just not up to the mark today. The lenses are decent workhorses, but not good enough for a modern MF digiback.
I have no wish to slam it, as its what I use - its in my bag and I'm about to go out for the day with it and the P45, BUT, I would love a freshly designed MF camera with a matrix AF system, serious digital pro quality lenses, modern power management, and full camera-digiback dialogue.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=74641\")
These camera choices get complicated and usually quite personal. Not personal in the way I get angry, just personal in the way that once I find something that works for me it becomes mine.
In the film days I had three sets of cameras, Deardorf, Nikons and Bronicas. They all did different things are were used for different reasons, but never (or hardly ever) for more detail.
I used them for the look. A 35mm just works like a 35, fast, spontaneous, where the Bronicas were money cameras, slower, a little more room to crop and easier for me and the client to edit.
Deardorffs were usually for me, and a few select jobs because the lenses were old, the camera rattled, but it was imposing and forced me and the subject into a certain look:
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/v/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/v/[/url]
Digital capture changed all of that because the cameras are expensive, take a year to really learn the workflow and the way the file looks and until recently only dslrs offered the on set workflow of film.
Now the newer digital backs allow me to almost cover all worlds from 35 to 8x10. Not because of detail but because of look.
This (shot with the Aptus and the Contax) is a medium format look
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/)
It fast, it's commercial and it's in focus (hopefully). There is enough area to crop and a frame ratio that fits the page.
I can shoot this with a Contax and H-1 or a Rollei and not see much difference.
This to me is the digital equivelent of a view camera look:
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg/)
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lk_retouch/index.htm (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lk_retouch/index.htm)
It's static, it's directed in front of the camera and shooting with a tilt shift and tethered I work the powerbook like the ground glass to a view camera, checking as I go.
This I can't do with an H-1.
Early on like many I used the 1ds (and briefly the 1ds2) and could get a look like medium format, but the frame size throws me. It always looks too tight or cropped, but that is more my experience that 35mm "should" look like 35mm
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/k/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/k/)
Still, this is all personal and there really are no wrong choices as long as what you use works for you.
JR
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so i hope for a: rollei 645af all in one digital like the ZD, but 16bit, accepting all rollei lenses...with the emotion end (oled screen, built in buffer, dalsa chip, 22mpix)....and a marketing campaign to match...i am not holding my breath...with the new sinar M out (talk about expensive!!!) i just can't see sinar working that closely with rollei to cut into their own market...
so maybe just a 645, smaller and more compact then 6008...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74658\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Rollei/Sinar 22 Emotion bundles are available for $23,600 US through Rollei. Buying through Sinar, $23,600 gets you the Sinar 22 EMotion only. So, if Rollei is camera you want, along with the Sinar 22 Emotion, go through Rollei and get the camera free. But don't buy through B&H, Adorama, etc. Go through a Sinar Digital-authorized dealer who is also Rollei authorized (most are). That way, you'll be buying from someone who can actually support your Sinar/Rollei combination completely.
It will be interesting to see how Sinar handles the distribution of the new Rollei D-SLR (it seems this is going to happen, and probably be announced at Photokina). Marketing has never been Sinar's strongsuit, but the Sinar M won't have an impact on their marketing efforts of the new Rollei system - it really doesn't compete with that. In fact, it's so expensive, I'm not quite sure what it competes with.
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steve, i simply meant that rollei is widely available...in most stores everybody knows...
there is something about the emotion backs i don't understand: leaf rates their aptus22 and 75 at 50-400 and 100-800, sinar the emotion 22 at 25-200 and the 75 at 50-400, yet they have the same dalsa chip....i wonder if sinar keeps in a stop slower for quality reasons...from my own experience with both leaf and phase i know that the asa ratings are almost "starting points" that can be pushed or pulled a stop without losing too much info...
that is the one thing i don't like about the emotion22, that it only goes to 200, i like the 25, but sometimes you just need a little more then 200....
so the 645 is in fact a D-SLR? anything else we can get you to say about it?
about the rollei/emotion bundle: wasn't there a trade-in deal by sinar? ANY working back means 8000 off the emotion75? meaning you get a 22 and trade up for the 75 when they are out? i am not sure about the details, and it was a couple of months ago, but it really looked good...
still: 23,600 including camera is pretty sweet, but compared to 10,000 for the rollei/P20...
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steve, i simply meant that rollei is widely available...in most stores everybody knows...
there is something about the emotion backs i don't understand: leaf rates their aptus22 and 75 at 50-400 and 100-800, sinar the emotion 22 at 25-200 and the 75 at 50-400, yet they have the same dalsa chip....i wonder if sinar keeps in a stop slower for quality reasons...from my own experience with both leaf and phase i know that the asa ratings are almost "starting points" that can be pushed or pulled a stop without losing too much info...
that is the one thing i don't like about the emotion22, that it only goes to 200, i like the 25, but sometimes you just need a little more then 200....
so the 645 is in fact a D-SLR? anything else we can get you to say about it?
about the rollei/emotion bundle: wasn't there a trade-in deal by sinar? ANY working back means 8000 off the emotion75? meaning you get a 22 and trade up for the 75 when they are out? i am not sure about the details, and it was a couple of months ago, but it really looked good...
still: 23,600 including camera is pretty sweet, but compared to 10,000 for the rollei/P20...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74686\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Leaf Aptus 22 is actually ISO 25-400, the Aptus 75 ISO 50-800. So, natively, the Sinar and Leaf are the same.
You're right though, about native ISO and pushing it. The amount a product can push it is a testament to the software algorithm.
I don't know that the Rollei D-SLR is factual, I only know something's coming, and it involves a new camera. It may be a Rollei/Sinar combo (camera/digiback). Just projecting.
There was, and still is a trade-in of any digital back for $8,000 off a Sinar 75. The Sinar 75 is out, so any interim step of a 22 is unecessary at this point.
The Rollei/P20 bundle is a deal. However, with the possible exception of software, the Emotion 22 beats a P20 significantly in almost every way: Much better display screen, 4GB built-in storage, dual-write to internal storage and CF card, no buffer for over 100 images, 22MP vs 16MP, 48x36 vs 37x37, etc.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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James, a bit off topic, but can you comment on the Hartblei Superrotator? I've been considering buying one of the 35mm versions for my 1Ds. I'm actually looking for something kind of "messed up", sort of a high end lens baby. I'd like to be able to shoot with selective focus. I require reasonable sharpeness for the in focus area.
Cheers,
Ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suspect that there is a mistake here, Leaf does not make their backs with Rollei mounts. If they did my Aptus 75 would be sitting on a 6008AF and NOT my H2.
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I suspect that there is a mistake here, Leaf does not make their backs with Rollei mounts. If they did my Aptus 75 would be sitting on a 6008AF and NOT my H2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe this is correct!
Therefore I'll probably go the eMotion-75 way!
Sinar and Rollei and Alpa make a nice combo!
Cheers,
Willem.
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There was, and still is a trade-in of any digital back for $8,000 off a Sinar 75. The Sinar 75 is out, so any interim step of a 22 is unecessary at this point.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74691\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
so what is the price for the 75? i guess there is no rollei bundle with the 75, and if there is, the trade-in deal would not apply...i wonder if there are any refurb. emotion 22s coming out...altough it seems that the 75 is the way to go anyway, the extra mpix are clearly a step up and the extra stop really is nice (the 25-200 of the 22 are a drawback...)
either way i think it is funny to see quite a few people in here so unhappy with the H1...because there are alternatives...rollei and contax seem to be the forgottten ones...and rollei seems to be in that position only because neither phase nor leaf make backs for them...
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realised last night, that what we are all nattering about is 'Hybrid MF' - old MF film cameras with digital backs grafted on. perhaps this could be useful as a term for this point of development?
what we are just beginning to see are full MF Digital solutions, with ground up designs for the new era - like the Sinar M, and maybe this new Rollei (?).
I cant imagine that anyone is going to develop a camera and allow Phase or Leaf to take the bigger $ profit in the backs, so expect some incompatibility to emerge. as they force you to buy their backs, which could mean some problems for the indie back makers.
This is aleady the case to some degree, as Sinar doesnt make any M fitting for Phase or Leaf - you must buy their back for that camera. This may seem like a good business model at first, but are all those who have already invested $30,000 in a back going to write that off? I dont think so. Sadly they seem to have shot themselves in the foot with the pricing of the M anyways, ($28,000 for camera + 2 lenses, and another $28,000 for the back) but hopefully someone else will get it right.
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There is no point in speculating about the new Rollei 645 system.
We just have to wait and see,however are we having the same issues that we have to tip the camera on it's side,when shooting in portrait mode?
Very likely!
That's the beauty of the 6008/eMotion combo!
You can rotate the back!
I might add it depends on your shooting style as well.
Most of my stuff is tripod based,so the 6008 is great.
We all know about the optics,expensive but certainly the best in the business.
PhotoKina here we come!
Cheers,
Willem.
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There is no point in speculating about the new Rollei 645 system.
We just have to wait and see,however are we having the same issues that we have to tip the camera on it's side,when shooting in portrait mode?
Very likely!
That's the beauty of the 6008/eMotion combo!
You can rotate the back!
I might add it depends on your shooting style as well.
Most of my stuff is tripod based,so the 6008 is great.
We all know about the optics,expensive but certainly the best in the business.
PhotoKina here we come!
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Personally, I don't understand any of these smaller cameras with a leaf shutter. I can understand the flash sync, but the lenses are over priced, usually slow and not any better quality.
Still, to me it's about the glass and the digital back, the center section is just there to hold the two together.
Given that I want as many options for glass and I can find (new or used) and the most viable back I can put on it which allows me to work tethered, untethered and fairly quick.
I'm not a fan of the all in one, but if that's what anybody is jonesin for then just buy a Canon.
They're more than happy to take your money every two years.
JR
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There is no point in speculating about the new Rollei 645 system.
We just have to wait and see,however are we having the same issues that we have to tip the camera on it's side,when shooting in portrait mode?
Very likely!
That's the beauty of the 6008/eMotion combo!
You can rotate the back!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
unless rollei makes a narrow and long mirror, the camera would have to be turned on its side to shoot vertical, just like H1,contac,mamiya,pentax....there is no other way...and making a long narrow mirror really has no space/weigh saving advantage over a square mirror...so the rollei 645 would have to be held vertical as well to shoot vertical...i think i would stay with my 6008...
but undoubtedly this would bring some well needed fresh air into the MF market...a "ZD" from rollei!!
oh the fun of speculating!!! we have about 4 weeks left to come up with all kinds of details!!
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Personally, I don't understand any of these smaller cameras with a leaf shutter. I can understand the flash sync, but the lenses are over priced, usually slow and not any better quality.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74783\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i am not sure there is faster lens line up in MF then rolleis: 40/3.5, 50/2.8, 80/f2, 110/f2, 180/f2.8 and these lenses want to be used wide open....
i don't really want a all in one either, but as a back-up instead of canon (which i just don't use anymore anyway..) it would be great, especially if it completely ties in with the system...
imagine a rollei family with its top of the line lenses shooting anything from compact 645 to 6x6 to "4x5" (x-act) film or digital...all with 1/500 or 1/1000 synch speed...no matter how much they charge for the lenses, the versatility would make it a bargain...
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As Sinar is involved?, the new Rollei 645 will and should have a removable back.that can be used on the 6008 and on the X-Act II.
Like Paul said,that would be a great integrated system!
4 weeks to go!
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As Sinar is involved?, the new Rollei 645 will and should have a removable back.that can be used on the 6008 and on the X-Act II.
Like Paul said,that would be a great integrated system!
4 weeks to go!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=74792\")
It's funny a year ago everyone complained that the db's were not up to the level of medium format cameras.
A friend of mine said he sold his H-1 because to him it was like towing a u-haul trailer with a Ferrari.
Now I'm not a real fan of the H-1/2, but it is interesting that since this time, Leaf, Imacon, Sinar and Phase have raised their game with higher iso, faster compressed shooting rates and except for Phase much improved lcd's.
As far as Rollei and Sinar they in the U.S. they have no real professional presence. I know some people are going to respond that they saw 3 6008's at B+H or Samy's cameras, but I've gone to the Rollei introductions where they promise new product, increased rental presence and better support only to see them go back into invisible mode.
I've walked into Adorama and asked to see a 6008 and got the response "well I think we have one upstairs, but I'd have to find and and we'll I don't know where the lenses are.".
To me, Rollei and Sinar getting together to introduce new product is like Mel Gibson and Michael Jackson meeting to solve their public relations issues.
Maybe I'm wrong and they will introduce killer product, at an affordable price point that is available everywhere, with a large presence of rental items and country based service and training.
The service/training is very important with these backs as they do take a while to learn properly and is one of Leaf's strong points as you can always call and usually in minutes speak to Rick Ashead in person, or Yair by e-mail and get a usable response and solution to an issue. Mamiya America which handles Leaf in the U.S. does all repairs in the U.S.
Yair is the only manufacturer's rep that comes on any of these forums AND takes and answers the hard questions, rather than just introduce new product and go back into hiding.
We see that a lot in digital capture where there is this flurry of press releases, a few reps post road maps to the future, then we are left on our own to find the solutions or answer our own questions.
The Mamiya ZD is the latest example of this and even though there is now another review of the ZD on this website, other than show a few images it really tells us nothing about frame rates, buffer, speed to process jpeg and tiffs, lcd use, white balance from daylight, tungsten, mixed light, strobe and service, tech support, user installed firmware updates, etc. etc.
For any of these products to be successful for the professional there has to be the whole package of what I've just mentioned.
I think a lot of people are looking at the Zd and the Canon solely as a lower cost alternative to the digital backs which is fine if it works for you, but I have heard few people tell me they like a dslr file or image proportion better than a medium format back.
In fact everyone I know that useds the Canons, or Nikons always mention price in relationship to the camera/file/look.
Today, I feel most of these digital backs can be viewed as a 5 year purchase which unlike the dslrs means worrying about camera upgrades, lens options almost a mute point.
Actually the lack of upgrades is the reason I went with the Contax, (that and I like the camera), because their are no new firmware updates I will need if I buy a lens and obviously Contax has no agenda to move me to another camera, lens or back.
As we know, today Contax has no agenda at all.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/[/url]
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The Mamiya ZD is the latest example of this and even though there is now another review of the ZD on this website, other than show a few images it really tells us nothing about frame rates, buffer, speed to process jpeg and tiffs, lcd use, white balance from daylight, tungsten, mixed light, strobe and service, tech support, user installed firmware updates, etc. etc.
JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does anyone know what's happened to the stand-alone ZD back that was designed along side the ZD - presumably it was designed as the test bed for the chip and other electronics even before the packaged all-in-one ZD was developed ?
Why not release this soon if the engineering is already done - if that is the case.
Why not even release the ZD back in 645 mounts for all manufacterers - we think they can make more money this way, than protecting the Mamiya brand - even taking into account the Mamiya protected lens sales ?
I Hope the ZD is a sucess as everyone else does (apart from direct competators of course). If mamiya can make decent margins, then I hope they are ambitious enough for a ZDII and soon, with at the very least a better LCD and maybe improved electronics (cleaned up high iso and maybe 16bit if it is shown to help AND a faster bigger memory buffer). Obviously the most pertinent upgrade would be the 33MP Dalsa sensor, which could be integrated at just the additional cost between the two sensors (not as much as you would think) - as long as the support electronic could keep up. Can these elctronics be simply scalled up for the bigger (33MP) chip, or used in parrallel ? I don't know as I'm not an engineer, but come Feb 2007, when the new Canon comes out at 20-24MP, then the ZD again has to evolve to be seen as having advantages.
Ed
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Obviously the most pertinent upgrade would be the 33MP Dalsa sensor, which could be integrated at just the additional cost between the two sensors (not as much as you would think) - as long as the support electronic could keep up.
Ed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
agreed. thought the exact same thing myself.
Mamiya need the 33mp ZDII, and it could be an excellent product.
this is just the sort of camera I would like to use and own, but it really must jump up a sensor if its to succeed.
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Yair is the only manufacturer's rep that comes on any of these forums AND takes and answers the hard questions, rather than just introduce new product and go back into hiding.
unfair.
Phase One has an excellent user forum and answer database with people responding to questions online every day in both Europe and USA. Leaf could learn a lot from Phase about customer support, upgrade paths, software etc. (where is Leafs user forum? or their solution for Windows users?)
Leaf comes to this forum, because there isnt a proper forum for Leaf users.
Phase have one set up, and it works well, so dont need their users to go to a third party site to get answers...
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Phase One has an excellent user forum and answer database with people responding to questions online every day in both Europe and USA. Leaf could learn a lot from Phase about customer support, upgrade paths, software etc. (where is Leafs user forum? or their solution for Windows users?)
I agree, Phase has been very responsove to my questions and suggestions. Their agents have been great in support, also. Can't say about Leaf because I have no experience with them.
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as nice as it is to have officials contribute in public discussion as it is the case with leaf (and i can tell from my own experience that there is good support with leaf, thanks again rick...), it does not really compare to phase...phase has a very professional, working forum that they run and obviously contribute to ontop of their online and phone support....but they real problem with leaf is their promises about software releases and updates...i had a leaf back for 2 years and the entire time was filled with unkept promises...i am not saying that i did not have something to work with, but it was frustrating to work with something that was about 2 years behind other products and being told every month that the new and much better version is coming next week....that is just bad support...
and like james keeps saying: software and workflow are at least as important as the hardware itself when it comes to making a desicion about MF backs..especially when the actual hardware is so similar...
i am not bashing leaf here and i will say again that the software was workable...it was more the feeling of having the carrot dangling infront of my nose at all times and not really wanting to commit to a consistent workflow, because it might change "next week" when the new "wondersoftware" is released....
how long have they promised a windows version? a hint: just don't make promises, don't say anything and surprise everybody by releasing it!
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Leaf users, you are all welcome to join the users forum:
http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/forum/ (http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/forum/)
It is only 2 months old but there's already a fair bit of info being shared and there's about 6 of us monitoring it regularily and responding as required.
It may well be opened to the public in the future, once it gathers momentum and is fully featured/ functional.
PC users are also welcome to join the beta programme for the Windows version of Leaf Capture 10.
Yair
PS personally I think there are still advantages in sharing information via a 3rd party forum where there is no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses. all IMHO.
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PS personally I think there are still advantages in sharing information via a 3rd party forum where there is no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses. all IMHO.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=75080\")
I don't think you would say 'no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses' if you have bothered to check 'Phase One Official User to User Forum'. Most exchanges in Phase One Forum are between the real users with real, not hypothetical, issues about Phase One products. Site Administrator jumps in once in a while with 'official' anwers.
There are 999 toics with 3752 posts on Capture One Windows, 789 topics with 3142 posts on Capture One Mac, 358 topics with 1576 posts on P series back, for example.
[a href=\"http://forum.phaseone.com/index.php]http://forum.phaseone.com/index.php[/url]
Also, you can crate a customer support case directly with Phase One on-line.
http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Support.aspx (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Support.aspx)
I don't have any opinions about other manufacturers since I don't have sufficient information on them neither positively nor negatively.
Jae Moon
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unfair.
Phase One has an excellent user forum and answer database with people responding to questions online every day in both Europe and USA. Leaf could learn a lot from Phase about customer support, upgrade paths, software etc. (where is Leafs user forum? or their solution for Windows users?)
Leaf comes to this forum, because there isnt a proper forum for Leaf users.
Phase have one set up, and it works well, so dont need their users to go to a third party site to get answers...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't belive it's unfair, I just believe it's a fact that only Yair comes on these forums and really takes it on the chin. I respect that.
Yes Phase has a forum, I've been on prior to deciding to go with Leaf and noticed some of the questions were answered quickly and some were not.
Phase makes a good product, excellent software, but is not known for their great corporate response time and they know this and I understand they are making an effort to improve.
In all fairness, Leaf's forum should also be opened up to the public and I belive it will.
Also is all fairness Leaf does need to get better on software development, or IMO send it out to a third party that specializes in it.
I do think these public forums develope questions, debate and thought that are of a different nature than the private or semi-private manufacturer's forum. Those forums tend to be specific in nature, rather than how we produce our art and what we need to accomplish that.
I am the very first to admit I am fond of Leaf. From the start Yair and Rick have been nothing but honest and amazingly helpful to me with the Aptus and the fact that Yair takes difficult questions is good for all of us, regardless of the camera you use.
IMO
JR
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yair and rick are great and very fast to respond...but they only have a fraction of the people to deal with...phase sells more backs (i believe) and they are also dealing with a lot more peolpe who bought C1 pro and le... i have had all my questions answered within a day/24hours and that is good enough for me...
this discussion seems to be going the same way the discussions about the backs themselves usually go...just like the backs, the support systems work in different ways, but there no reason to fear being stranded either way...
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I don't think you would say 'no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses' if you have bothered to check 'Phase One Official User to User Forum'.
I have (bothered...), ever since it was created.
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I have (bothered...), ever since it was created.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And you still consider 'corporate blanket over the carefully crafted responses' a proper description of the Phase One Forum?
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nothing says corporate blanket like closed to the non leaf user public....
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And you still consider 'corporate blanket over the carefully crafted responses' a proper description of the Phase One Forum?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The forum is great, the responses aren't so great. Sorry if I was misunderstood.
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The forum is great, the responses aren't so great. Sorry if I was misunderstood.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
a forum is as good as the responses it collects...the phase forum provides tech support by phase employees and help from other phase owners, most of which know what they are talking about...
i don't understand why we have to "defend" an excellent support forum here...so this is one of leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum: badmouth the phase forum?...great!
BTW: asked a question about the new sandisk cards on the phase forum today, got a detailed and satisfying answer from tech support 55min. later...not bad at all
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a forum is as good as the responses it collects...the phase forum provides tech support by phase employees and help from other phase owners, most of which know what they are talking about...
i don't understand why we have to "defend" an excellent support forum here...so this is one of leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum: badmouth the phase forum?...great!
BTW: asked a question about the new sandisk cards on the phase forum today, got a detailed and satisfying answer from tech support 55min. later...not bad at all
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My initial post was inviting Leaf users to join the Leaf forum following a query about it, that was it.
Most of my posts on this forum are based on my personal experience and opinions and by no means reflect "leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum" (I'm not technical support).
And no, you do not need to defend Phase's forum since no one was attacking it.
BR
Yair
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My initial post was inviting Leaf users to join the Leaf forum following a query about it, that was it.
Most of my posts on this forum are based on my personal experience and opinions and by no means reflect "leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum" (I'm not technical support).
And no, you do not need to defend Phase's forum since no one was attacking it.
BR
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Children , children ...
Can we go back to bashing the products rather than bashing each other ?
Edmund
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Leaf users, you are all welcome to join the users forum:
http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/forum/ (http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/forum/)
It is only 2 months old but there's already a fair bit of info being shared and there's about 6 of us monitoring it regularily and responding as required.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75080\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With the little information that can be found online on DBs, I think it's unfortunate for interested future customers to make a product forum not even viewable by the public.
Best,
Thomas
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With the little information that can be found online on DBs, I think it's unfortunate for interested future customers to make a product forum not even viewable by the public.
Best,
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I mentioned before, the forum is only 2 months old and is still going through some development.
Once we hare happy with its state, we'll look into making it public.
Hope this helps, yair
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With the little information that can be found online on DBs, I think it's unfortunate for interested future customers to make a product forum not even viewable by the public.
Best,
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I think it would be nice to have forums public. I don't know if the Phase forum started out that way from the very beginning. Yair makes a good point that they're just getting started with this, so let's give them some time to sort it out, and see where they end up.
I think it's also important to be aware that while a user forum is a good place to get information, it also tends to be a place where people go for help or with complaints. It can be used as a gauge to see how the company responds, but it can also be a platform for very public agendas.
And after reading a company-based, product-based forum, you may have the idea that the product is nothing but trouble. This is rarely the case. Users have a tendency to not dial into forums and rave about how wonderful their digital back is.
It's more often...
HELP! Green light won't come on! Middle of shoot! Any suggestions!?
It can lead one to the conclusion - gosh, these guys sure do have lots of problems. Which isn't the case. The vast majority of digital back users - regardless of brand - are quite happy with their choice.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Well, I think it would be nice to have forums public. I don't know if the Phase forum started out that way from the very beginning. Yair makes a good point that they're just getting started with this, so let's give them some time to sort it out, and see where they end up.
I think it's also important to be aware that while a user forum is a good place to get information, it also tends to be a place where people go for help or with complaints. It can be used as a gauge to see how the company responds, but it can also be a platform for very public agendas.
And after reading a company-based, product-based forum, you may have the idea that the product is nothing but trouble. This is rarely the case. Users have a tendency to not dial into forums and rave about how wonderful their digital back is.
It's more often...
HELP! Green light won't come on! Middle of shoot! Any suggestions!?
It can lead one to the conclusion - gosh, these guys sure do have lots of problems. Which isn't the case. The vast majority of digital back users - regardless of brand - are quite happy with their choice.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have mixed feelings about all of these forums, public or private.
One one side, some photographer that doesn't do his homework makes a user error then starts screaming the product is crap is somewhat unfair.
On the flip slde all of these companies, Canon, Nikon included have released product that is not really ready for use and it almost seems they use thier customer base as beta testers.
When those posts become public, in my view the manufacturer's deserve the reviews.
The one thing I've noticed that pertains to the use of digital backs is everyone that has not tried one for an extended period of time believes they are almost impossible to work.
Time and again I receive e-mails from someone that says, "wow I just tried the _______back mounted on a _______ and how easy it is to shoot. I thought from reading on the forums it would be much more difficult".
Some of this can be put on the makers of the backs because they do make it difficult to get information. The PDF's can be confusing and certain topics that like Moire, or CA seem to be bypassed in any forum disucssion.
Some of this can also be put on the reviewer's because like that recent article about the mamiya ZD, there is no mention of buffer speed, lcd clairty/color correctness, write times, and very little infomation about post production.
It seems all any reviewer wants to do is just shoot each back side by side at different iso's and post the results. I know in my own personal testing these cameras can be so scene specific what is really needed is a broad based review that starts with setup, file naming, tethering, portable, lcd clairty, shoot speed, right times, high to low iso, noise reduction, software options, post production times, jpeg creations all the way to final file delivery.
Do the work well with tungsten, mixed, or daylight and how accurate are the standard white balances?
Personally I think the digital backs are a good investment as they are the closest thing to a medium format, even large format film look, that is available in the digital world and regardless of the constant pixel peeping comparisions between brands and formats, the lenses and aspect ratios do make a great deal of difference in crafting a certain look.
I chose the Leaf for a few very important reasons and none of them were ever mentioned by the manufacturer, or in any test I saw online or in print.
Lately everyone seems to be waiting for announcements from Photokina to decide if they will stick with their dslrs or move to medium format. I find this interesting because even if a dslr was introduced tomorrow at 40 mega pixels it would not change the lens options, file depth and the aspect ratio.
To me those are much more important values than detail.
JR
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Forums are a great source of information, BUT....
When I had a Phase problem I dealt with a dealer who was not well informed. He gave me a support phone # for Phase and said "don't tell them who gave you this #".
The few problems I have had with LEAF, I call the 800# and in 30 seconds am talking to someone very knowledgable.
Of course this is a gross oversimplification, The customer support models that Phase and Leaf use are soo different that it is really difficult to compare. In my own experience, when going from one company to another, the most difficult thing is adjusting my expectations. A Phase user goes to Leaf and looks for the robust Forum for answers.... A Leaf user goes to phase and searches hopelessly for the 800# to call. In the short term, both people are dissapointed with with the other company's custumer service.
-Eric
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As I mentioned before, the forum is only 2 months old and is still going through some development.
Once we hare happy with its state, we'll look into making it public.
Hope this helps, yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Yair, I'm looking forward to it !
Best,
Thomas
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Well, I think it would be nice to have forums public. I don't know if the Phase forum started out that way from the very beginning. Yair makes a good point that they're just getting started with this, so let's give them some time to sort it out, and see where they end up.
I think it's also important to be aware that while a user forum is a good place to get information, it also tends to be a place where people go for help or with complaints. It can be used as a gauge to see how the company responds, but it can also be a platform for very public agendas.
And after reading a company-based, product-based forum, you may have the idea that the product is nothing but trouble. This is rarely the case. Users have a tendency to not dial into forums and rave about how wonderful their digital back is.
It's more often...
HELP! Green light won't come on! Middle of shoot! Any suggestions!?
It can lead one to the conclusion - gosh, these guys sure do have lots of problems. Which isn't the case. The vast majority of digital back users - regardless of brand - are quite happy with their choice.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good points, Steve,
I can see how a company can be reluctant to go public with a product forum;however, the postings on any forum need to be taken with a grain of salt, that should go without saying.
I assume the majority of digital back users are mature enough to read between the lines, after all, this is not about the latest Playstation or iPod releases ; also, most of them should be smart enough not to look for emergency support on a public message board for their 20k + device .
My grief is that, for the mentioned 20k - 30k backs, there are not even basic FAQs available on the manufacturer's websites, just some cheesy sales brochure pdfs.
In my city there are knowledgable and helpful reps for all the major players in the field, who are my main source of advice, but I still would expect to find a lot more advice online - most valuable for me are user experiences, as one can find them here and possibly on the Leaf boards.
Best,
Thomas
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"...
Lately everyone seems to be waiting for announcements from Photokina to decide if they will stick with their dslrs or move to medium format. I find this interesting because even if a dslr was introduced tomorrow at 40 mega pixels it would not change the lens options, file depth and the aspect ratio.
To me those are much more important values than detail."[/color]
James I could not agree with you more..i have in the past shot with both hasselblad v cameras and contax 645. I currently use a mamiya 7 but need to get a mf slr system again..the only thing I am waiting for photokina for is to see if hasselblad bring out a extra wide lens and shift system for their cameras as a flexible shift option and super wide on an mf system will be usefull for me..if not it's a contax 645 for me...for all the reasons a photographer used to choose mf over 35mm..they have not changed but i think too many have forgotten that!
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Good points, Steve,
I can see how a company can be reluctant to go public with a product forum;however, the postings on any forum need to be taken with a grain of salt, that should go without saying.
I assume the majority of digital back users are mature enough to read between the lines, after all, this is not about the latest Playstation or iPod releases ; also, most of them should be smart enough not to look for emergency support on a public message board for their 20k + device .
My grief is that, for the mentioned 20k - 30k backs, there are not even basic FAQs available on the manufacturer's websites, just some cheesy sales brochure pdfs.
In my city there are knowledgable and helpful reps for all the major players in the field, who are my main source of advice, but I still would expect to find a lot more advice online - most valuable for me are user experiences, as one can find them here and possibly on the Leaf boards.
Best,
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree - I think a well thought out FAQ would be beneficial.
I have to say, though, and believe me, I am not throwing any stones here - but it always surprises me how just a little bit of information, accurate or not, goes a long way towards forming a base of knowledge . Read a negative squib on a forum, and that little squib suddenly becomes universal fact, and the product is taken off the consideration list. I've seen it countless times. In my experience, photographers often do not take information from less than authentic sources with a grain of salt, as they should.
And I don't even count users as an authentic source, necessarily. Many users themselves, offer incomplete and inaccurate information on the very products they use.
That being said, finding accurate, authentic and reliable sources for this information is a challenge. An FAQ from the manufacturer would be helpful. In fact, a pre-sales product FAQ would be helpful, as well as a post sales troubleshooting FAQ. I'll maintain again, though - and yes, my bias will show here - it's imperitive that you have a relationship with a knowledgable, trustworthy, committed person, whether they're a manufacturer's rep, a dealer, or good friend, who truly does know what they're talking about.
This resource may not always be available or known - in that case, ask around. Who uses the product you're interested in? Who helped them (and continues to)? And how has that experience been?
Anyone moving into MF/LF digital capture is looking at a $15K - $30K or more expenditure. This isn't a point-n-shoot that you're going to toss or hand down after a year or two. This is an investment that should last at least 5-7-9 years, maybe more. Don't mess around with anyone who isn't dedicated to this technology and in it for the long haul.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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"...
Lately everyone seems to be waiting for announcements from Photokina to decide if they will stick with their dslrs or move to medium format. I find this interesting because even if a dslr was introduced tomorrow at 40 mega pixels it would not change the lens options, file depth and the aspect ratio.
To me those are much more important values than detail."[/color]
James I could not agree with you more..i have in the past shot with both hasselblad v cameras and contax 645. I currently use a mamiya 7 but need to get a mf slr system again..the only thing I am waiting for photokina for is to see if hasselblad bring out a extra wide lens and shift system for their cameras as a flexible shift option and super wide on an mf system will be usefull for me..if not it's a contax 645 for me...for all the reasons a photographer used to choose mf over 35mm..they have not changed but i think too many have forgotten that!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=75386\")
I need to be quiet about the Contax because they are getting harder to find and prices are rising.
Still I went with the Contax initially because I just do not like the way the falloff of the H-1 lenses looks. Almost linear vs. soft but that's just my impression.
I also wanted lens options and focal plane cameras offer many more options than Leaf shutter cameras. Any lens Pentex, Hasselblad makes will mount to a Contax via an adpater and the 45mm Keiv tilt shift lens offers a lot of possiblities.
This allows me to go to this look
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/[/url]
To a more commercial look
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/)
Which is helped by the lens options.
I went with the Leaf because to me, processed in pscs the file looks like film at 100 iso.
At 25/50 iso, especially in the Leaf software it looks too smooth for me, but at 100 it's as close to film as I have seen with digital.
I also went with the Leaf because it runs on a powerbook G4 tethered fast (with V-8) and processes very fast in pscs and cs2.
Even in studio using a 30" monitor the benfits of using a powerbook vs. a tower are obvious, especially when it comes to backups.
The third upside to the Leaf is they repair and offer direct phone service in the U.S. Even as good as Phase's forum can be, calling and speaking to someone immediatly can be a life saver.
Leaf exchanged my lcd and tested all of my lenses and back in one day. I sent itout on Monday, received everything back wednesday morning by fedex.
Few of these features Leaf advertises, which somewhat surprises me.
Obviouisly Contax doesn't advertise, but why they left the market is really beyond my comprehension.
JR
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The third upside to the Leaf is they repair and offer direct phone service in the U.S. Even as good as Phase's forum can be, calling and speaking to someone immediatly can be a life saver.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75396\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
goodness Leaf users really are vocal here. being as Phase outsell Leaf by a long way, I can only presume that their users are too busy making photographs with their wonderful 39Mp backs to read/ write all this.
to give a more accurate picture: Phase dealers are on call 24/7. I can phone mine at 10pm on a sunday night if I need to. I have home and cell numbers for 3 people there. if there's a problem, they offer immediate replacement swap back, couriered over within an hour or two.
however, in my 6 months of experience there is no problem. at all. its a bulletproof product, 100% reliable. and great software.
just trying to balance out this debate.
its good to have choice, I welcome other products and wish there were more actually.
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phase phonesupport is readily available..no problem at all...phase service has a 24 replacement option...their forum is watched by several phase techs and 100s of pro users...leaf has great support as well...like i said before: very similar to the comparison of the backs themselves: both companies offer great products, it is up to the individual to choose which one is better for them...
for me that is phase right now...after switching from leaf: both backs gave me wonderful results (quality, resolution,...) but the workflow...one of the reasons was that i shoot canon as well (actually not anymore...the MF files are just so much better...) so when i still shot canon i was using C1 for canon and loved the workflow and worked with leaf 8 and 10, which was fine, but no comparison...so when it came down to making a descision and both backs delivered the quality, it was clear that i went with the one that kept my workflow "leaner"....
now that i almost never shoot canon anymore, i am still hooked on C1...the only thing i would change for now is the emotion75...the sinar software is at least as good (if not better) then the leaf and the back shoots fast, works with all cameras via adapter, has a 6gb built in buffer and a small but very good screen...
as most people here will admit: none of their backs are perfect (we all know the phase screens suck) what is funny to me is that neither phase nor leaf have really done anything to change the shortcomings in their latest products....i mean why can't phase put in a decent screen, even if it is small, into a 30000$ back?
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goodness Leaf users really are vocal here. being as Phase outsell Leaf by a long way, I can only presume that their users are too busy making photographs with their wonderful 39Mp backs to read/ write all this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Phase One has been the market share leading digital back product going back a number of years. However, market share only indicates who has the most users. It does not address who is currently selling the most product.
We'll never have accurate numbers from either Leaf or Phase One to compare. But saying that "Phase outsells Leaf by a long way" is nowhere near the truth, at least not in the US market. I am not saying that Leaf is outselling Phase, but I am saying that it is quite possible, given the feeback I receive, ever since the Aptus started shipping.
What information are you basing your statement on?
Regarding technical support, the Phase dealers I know are excellent. It's even better to have not only an excellent dealer who provides support, but access to the manufacturer as well. You can never have too many technical support resources.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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I need to be quiet about the Contax because they are getting harder to find and prices are rising.
This allows me to go to this look
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/)
To a more commercial look
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/)
The third upside to the Leaf is they repair and offer direct phone service in the U.S. Even as good as Phase's forum can be, calling and speaking to someone immediatly can be a life saver.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75396\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's a bit annoying, James seems to be getting better and better at imaging. But then maybe he spends zero time on learning new equipment so he has time to shoot
Re. service, it would be interesting to know what option Leaf has in Europe. I am starting to think seriously about Sinar because at least I know that the Swiss will fix it locally, and I can take the thing there in person in half a day.
Last, not least, am I imagining things or has Phase got good open colors and Leaf good skin and dark tones ?
Edmund
Edmund
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Last, not least, am I imagining things or has Phase got good open colors and Leaf good skin and dark tones ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i find that phase is better at providing "clean" colors...whereas leaf almost comes with a "look"...a little like kodak vs. fuji where fuji was a little warmer and had better skin tones (imho)...does not mean that you can't get good skintones with phase and clean color with leaf...but if you look at james's work, he has a definite "look" and color fidelity does not seem really important...
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You can never have too many technical support resources.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75406\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hallelujah Brother!
As someone who Digital Tech's on both Phase and Leaf systems, what is far more important to me is not what back I'm working with, but who I can get on the phone when I'm in a bind. In that regard the support from both manufacturers has been superb.
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i find that phase is better at providing "clean" colors...whereas leaf almost comes with a "look"...a little like kodak vs. fuji where fuji was a little warmer and had better skin tones (imho)...does not mean that you can't get good skintones with phase and clean color with leaf...but if you look at james's work, he has a definite "look" and color fidelity does not seem really important...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=75412\")
Color is so subjective, especially on different moitors and more importantly genre's or subjects.
Early on I would zero the Aptus out with a color card then do "my" look in post, but now I usually get my base settings in V-8 and either transfer them to the cf cards or continue to shoot tetherred.
With the size of DB files, the closer you get out of camer, the less time you have to spend in post.
Regardless, eveything I shoot has some post work to it, regardless.
Also lenses, light sources make a big difference and of course what is in my mind to start with.
I have very little experience working the Phase files, but have used C-1 quite a bit when I shot with the Canons and the Nikon D2x. I like C-1 though find it looks a little brittle for my taste, but regardless of raw convertor I do know the Leaf files save me a great deal of time in post because the colors are easier to move selectively vs. the global looks I tend to get in the dslrs, especially the 1ds2.
I am very famiiar with Leaf V-8 for Capture and pscs for batch or singlular processing and like anything since I am familiar with it I tend to like it better.
These two images were shot to a style and have a great deal of post work, but they do give some idea of the possibilities of working with a deeper file.
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/seat4e/image/8_copy.jpg]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/seat...mage/8_copy.jpg[/url]
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/seat...e/113.jpgv2.jpg (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/seat4e/image/113.jpgv2.jpg)
Then again some of the work I do is very color critical and has more to do with skin tone and product color than the actual style of the photo.
To me the comparision of Leaf vs. Phase vs. anything really has nothing to do with the experiences I share. For some reason is seams if I says anything positive about one system, or then it tends to bring out the someone that wants to prove their choice brand is as good or better and that's not the reason for these forums. DP review seems to have that area covered.
To me the reason for these forums is to learn and share and hopefully give someone a little better idea about real world use of these systems.
Actually, had Phase at the time had a better LCD I might have gone that direction and from all accounts everyone says they make a good product. I know it's robust butr also have heard my share of stories of cameras going down, but I've heard that about every camera and all I can report on is what I use.
It really doesn't matter if what you use works for you.
Actually the goal is to use what doesn't limit you and for me the Leaf was less limiting, but that is only for my work.
I do disagree that the Leaf and Phase are equal products. Both good products but the companies seem to have different philosophies.
The Leaf allows for more user set ups on the back prior to shooting, where the Phase seems to rely more on the post production when you shoot non tethered.
The Leaf gives a larger and more useable LCD while the Phase offers an LCD for composition expecting the user to read the histogram for exposure.
Leaf early on offered their file to other software developers and Phase seemed to work a closed loop from capture to process.
Obviously the Phase software is much more robust and mature than the Leaf, though also requires a lot more computer to run than Leaf's V-8. I can't comment that much on LC 10 because I only use it for jpeg creation though I know it is still a work in progress for my type of work.
Still this DOES NOT imply anything other than these are much different philosophies and some people are more comfortable with Phase, others with Leaf.
For the people that were curious, this is the complete shoot from one of my previous links, straight out of the camera. All shot at iso 200, all with window light and some very low powered flash for fill.
All was shot tethered to a G4 powerbook, using Leaf V-8, with standard white balance, though I did make a slight -1G setting.
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/looking_glass2/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/looking_glass2/)
The Jpegs for this web gallery were created directly out of LC10. The raw files were selected in LC10 and it makes automatic jpegs at approx. 1000, px wide, reading the previous settings from V-8, at approx 3 seconds a file on a powerbook G4.
Obviously the jpegs were then knocked down in I-view for this web gallery and a color profile applied.
JR
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http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/looking_glass2/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/looking_glass2/)
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
Thank you for showing this. The way you work the first model is amazing. Sidelighting is fun because of the way the slightest movement plays the subtle shadows on the face. Styling on that first model is also very nice.
I assume the first pictures at least are natural side-light, maybe just one reflector ? How did you get the blur ?
What sort of adjustments does one make to the back before shooting ?
BTW, I would put the slidechange buttons to the side of the image, as monitors tend to be wider than tall these days.
Edmund
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Hi,
seems that James has put the 45 T/S from Hartblei to sing :-)
I have also very positive history with 65 T/S from the same company. Very sharp and unique style.
Recommended.
regards, Sami
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http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/looking_glass2/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/looking_glass2/)
The Jpegs for this web gallery were created directly out of LC10. The raw files were selected in LC10 and it makes automatic jpegs at approx. 1000, px wide, reading the previous settings from V-8, at approx 3 seconds a file on a powerbook G4.
Obviously the jpegs were then knocked down in I-view for this web gallery and a color profile applied.
JR
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=75438\")
Very nice images. Are they "fast preview" jpgs from Leaf Capture or the ones in the LeafDB folder?
Looks like you are not the only one that like that location :-)
[a href=\"http://www.mamiya.com/photographers/roy.asp?id2=1654]http://www.mamiya.com/photographers/roy.asp?id2=1654[/url]
Lasse
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very interesting james. these files have a very distinctive look to them.
it's obvious that the tilt shift lens is contributing the in/out of focus in the shots, but are the very distinctive pastel colors coming entirely from the lens or is this something that you contribute to the back, the set-up of the back through the software, the lighting and styling or a combination of these things?
was this something that was planned? and if so, have you been able to get other "looks" directly from the back, lens, lighting combo that can illustrate what else this back is capable of?
the subtle color seems to diminish somewhat in the corners and shadow areas and become just slightly "muddier", for lack of a better word, would you contribute this to the lens or the file?
thanks for the great info.
kipling
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very interesting james. these files have a very distinctive look to them.
it's obvious that the tilt shift lens is contributing the in/out of focus in the shots, but are the very distinctive pastel colors coming entirely from the lens or is this something that you contribute to the back, the set-up of the back through the software, the lighting and styling or a combination of these things?
was this something that was planned? and if so, have you been able to get other "looks" directly from the back, lens, lighting combo that can illustrate what else this back is capable of?
the subtle color seems to diminish somewhat in the corners and shadow areas and become just slightly "muddier", for lack of a better word, would you contribute this to the lens or the file?
thanks for the great info.
kipling
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=75912\")
What I showed was a warts and all gallery. Some of the images are polaroids, some just getting to the right expsoure or pose and most are then shot once I'm comfortable with the look.
This was done comletely tethered, with the A-22 on a Contax, using a 17" powerbook and running V-8.
As working with window light and moving light, I added fill through very low powered flash and/or large sheets of foam core, or large 12x12 silks hung verticle.
As you can see I did about 15 sessions/ 10 wardrobe changes so there is not a lot of time for exact fine tuning and I find working tethered is actually faster and more precise than shooting portable on something like this.
First I can set the color, tone and exposure I want through the software and secondly the previews are fast and large so I can really tell where the photograph is going and what needs to be added quickly.
Also using the tilt shift the focus needs to be placed so tethering helps and sets the style of the imagery somewhat like using a view camera, albiet a very fast view camera.
I limited myself to 200 iso and sometimes the shutter speed was at 1/15th t o 1/30th which added to this romantic look. Sometimes slow is good.
As far as the colors it's a combination of things.
First Leaf has written some very good film looks into their system. I think the best, but then again I have a lot of experience with the back.
Next that old Russian lens produces a look that is more than just tilt shift as the glass seems to be of the old hand crafted style, rather than the newer computer generated, everything must be craking sharp look that it seems modern lenses have moved to.
Personally I think a lot of reasons photographers think digital does not have the look of film is because of the newer lenses. I believe film was more forgiving with overly sharp lenses and digital needs that analog softness of old glass.
I am and have built quite a lens collection for the Contax/Aptus and I can promise you that not every lens is created equal, but the lenses that would show up worse on a chart, are much prettier under certain situations I use Pentax, Kiev, Hasselblad, Contax/Zeiss lenses some with the same focal length, but all produce a different look.
Still, we all have to remember that a digital camera or back is now more than just a camera.
It's also the film and the Leaf file will process natively in other raw convertors, rather than just Leaf's own software.
pscs, cs2, RD, lc10, V-8 all produce a slightly to dramatically different look and I love those options.
In the end, it doesn't matter as long as the equipment you use doesn't stop you from getting to your planned look.
So the short answer to your question is, it's a lot of things that contriubte to a look but going from something that is soft and dream like that emulates natural light [a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/[/url] to an intentionally lit, planned and staged look http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/ (http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/n/) is something that you want these expensive systems to acomplish without having to do everything in post production.
The closer you get out of the camera, the easier it is on the backend and digital can eat up huge volumes of time and money if your not careful.
JR
JR
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Regarding the different MF camera systems, is there anyone using the RZ67 Pro II with a digital back? It seems this was the best MF system ever made to a lot of pros, even better than Hassy V.
I'm not using MF digital, but if I was about to make the transition, it would be very hard for me to choose between the Contax 645 or RZ67, even though, the Contax is WAY better for the smaller-than-645 chips we have now.
Another thing - I find it quite sad that Hasselblad hasn't given Michael any backs to be tested.
The Hassy/Imacon backs and the Leaf backs appeal to me the most, however, the Hassy backs are just so flexible with the I-Adapters that you screw on for whatever camera you're using. Seems like a MUCH better system, and I hope Leaf and Phase start doing the same thing. The thing is, I don't hear that much about Hassy backs at all. Do they even compare to Phase and Leaf? Why is there so little talk on the Hassy backs? The only thing I hear about are the complete packages, like the H1D or the H2D. I never read or hear anything regarding their stand-alone backs. It seems in the case of stand-alone backs, Phase and Leaf get all the business.
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Regarding the different MF camera systems, is there anyone using the RZ67 Pro II with a digital back? It seems this was the best MF system ever made to a lot of pros, even better than Hassy V.
I'm not using MF digital, but if I was about to make the transition, it would be very hard for me to choose between the Contax 645 or RZ67, even though, the Contax is WAY better for the smaller-than-645 chips we have now.
Another thing - I find it quite sad that Hasselblad hasn't given Michael any backs to be tested.
The Hassy/Imacon backs and the Leaf backs appeal to me the most, however, the Hassy backs are just so flexible with the I-Adapters that you screw on for whatever camera you're using. Seems like a MUCH better system, and I hope Leaf and Phase start doing the same thing. The thing is, I don't hear that much about Hassy backs at all. Do they even compare to Phase and Leaf? Why is there so little talk on the Hassy backs? The only thing I hear about are the complete packages, like the H1D or the H2D. I never read or hear anything regarding their stand-alone backs. It seems in the case of stand-alone backs, Phase and Leaf get all the business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The stand-alone backs (known as CF-132 or CF-39) have just now begun shipping within the last 30 days. They were announced late last year, but delayed primarily for compatibility reasons - getting the backs to work with all the different camera interface plates they have, electronic communication, etc. It's also likely that the H system has priority with Hasselblad in terms of product readiness. Despite Hasselblad's committment to the H platform though, they will continue to make stand-alone digital backs.
The stand-alones are definitely now shipping, so ask a qualified dealer for a demo. Because of their flexibility, they're certainly worth a look.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Regarding the different MF camera systems, is there anyone using the RZ67 Pro II with a digital back? It seems this was the best MF system ever made to a lot of pros, even better than Hassy V.
I'm not using MF digital, but if I was about to make the transition, it would be very hard for me to choose between the Contax 645 or RZ67, even though, the Contax is WAY better for the smaller-than-645 chips we have now.
Another thing - I find it quite sad that Hasselblad hasn't given Michael any backs to be tested.
The Hassy/Imacon backs and the Leaf backs appeal to me the most, however, the Hassy backs are just so flexible with the I-Adapters that you screw on for whatever camera you're using. Seems like a MUCH better system, and I hope Leaf and Phase start doing the same thing. The thing is, I don't hear that much about Hassy backs at all. Do they even compare to Phase and Leaf? Why is there so little talk on the Hassy backs? The only thing I hear about are the complete packages, like the H1D or the H2D. I never read or hear anything regarding their stand-alone backs. It seems in the case of stand-alone backs, Phase and Leaf get all the business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
don't forget about sinar...their emotion75 has the same dalsa chip as the APtus75, has a small but very readable oled display, a 6gb buffer for fast shooting AND built in back-up! takes every camera via adapters (like the imacons) AND sinar has a trade in deal until end of september (7000$ for any digiback...there is a guy on ebay actually selling his back for 500$ and mentioning the deal) which brings the final cost down to 22.000$....sinar capture shop is a very good and mature software but mac only i believe....
sinar is also making a promotional demo tour right now..contact the nearest sinar dealer...
sinar has made digital backs for years, they have a lot of experience...just not a lot of market share here in the US...
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The Sinar eMotion-75 is the direction I'm thinking of!
I had my eyes set on the Aptus-75,but I like the added bonus (very readable oled display, a 6gb buffer for fast shooting AND built in back-up)
Also the battery pack sits nicely inside the back instead of dangling of the bottom.(Leaf)
My friend Rainer Viertlbock has been shooting with one and after ironing out the issues,
he is very happy with it.
He has been working together with Stephan Hass to correct the centrefold issue that most Dalsa
33 MB sensors have.
Sinar is now also in contact with Stephan.
It shows up more with shifting or tilting.
I think the eMotion will work nicely with the Rollei and Alpa XY systems.
If only if my bank manager would listen to me know!
Cheers,
Willem.
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Ah yes, forgot about the Sinars.
Isn't Calumet going to start carrying Sinar backs?
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py with it.
He has been working together with Stephan Hass to correct the centrefold issue that most Dalsa
33 MB sensors have.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Willem, what's this centerfold issue you are referring to?
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Ah yes, forgot about the Sinars.
Isn't Calumet going to start carrying Sinar backs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
going there on thursday to have a demo with the sinar rep....calumet LA...
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going there on thursday to have a demo with the sinar rep....calumet LA...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've never used a Sinar back and there is a lot of talk about Sinar and Rollei forming an alliance and offering a new camera.
All of this is good on paper, heck every camera is good on paper but it's the real world use where these things can fall down.
I'm sure the Sinar shoots a great file, but in the U.S. they have very little presence in dealers and manufacturer support.
You also want a lot of options in shooting and more importantly post processing.
Having the ability to natively work the .mos file in pscs, cs2, rd, lc10, v-8, lightroom etc. is like having multiple labs and multiple films.
I too wish my Aptus back (soon to be backs) would just snap on any camera made, but from what I'm told that is difficult and one of the reasons the 39mp blad is just coming out a year after it was introduced.
That's one of the reasons I went with the Contax because it gave me the most options with just one platform, using third party tilt shifts and adapters I can now mount lenses from 4 manufacturers, but continue to use the Zeiss lenses and a autofocus system.
Still, when the day comes and the Contax is not viable Leaf will change the mount for a fee, around $2,000 in the U.S. half of that in Europe.
Not cheap, but a lot less expensive than buying a new system.
But before putting the money down and commiting to a system I would want to know hwo good the service and after sale support is.
Sinar has to come a long way to match Phase and Leaf in this area.
JR
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James, have you had the opportunity to directly compare the output of the Aptus 65 to the 22? I'm primarily interested in skin tones and texture. Also 400, 800?
Thank you,
David Jay