Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: tom b on June 19, 2017, 09:09:31 pm
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Something to think about…
New system (https://petapixel.com/2017/06/19/photographers-beware-upcoming-macos-transition-issues/)
Cheers,
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Thanks for bringing that to our attention. The key issues will be (i) how well the new software behaves with a variety of MacPro models dating from how long back, and (ii) how well-tested the new systems will be pre-launch. Of course the jury will be out on all that till the launch happens and users gain some experience with it. Depending on the implications I wouldn't rule out a return to Windows using a very high quality PC; but the implications of the Mac upgrades will have to be bad and/or very expensive for that to happen. Best approach for now - wait and see.
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I'm looking forward to High Sierra and APFS. APFS is long overdue and will bring many features and safeguards that IT pros have as standard on so many data center systems. Checksums that provide integrity checks for files, native full disk encryption, snapshots, cloning, etc. etc. etc. As with many things Apple introduces they may implement some file system features over time but starting with a good, solid base. It will be a grown up file system not something that belongs in the Smithsonian "wayback archives".
Will I be the first guy on the block to upgrade my machine to High Sierra? Heck no! I'm a retired IT guy so I'll wait until the .2 release and see if the dust has settled.
Microsoft won't be a safe haven for long for desktop techno grouches. You can expect MS to update its ancient NTFS at the consumer level within a couple of years as well.
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Very useful insights Ron - many thanks. I don't really want to go back to Windows, but I am apprehensive about what will be involved with these upgrades. Waiting for the dust to settle goes without saying. And we will just have to wait and see what the hardware implications and their costs may be. I just hope Apple remains mindful when they test these new products that people do have alternatives and can walk.
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Apple understands much better than most companies that moving to a competitor is just a click away.
The new file system will turn out to be a huge boon for Mac aficionados.
Apprehension is always warranted with a new OS or file system. Just wait a bit and see what impact it has on early adopters. Don't forget that there are developers currently kicking the tires and that it will go through a number of iterations and beta testing before its released. Apple has already transitioned all iOS devices to the new file system. Apple is very conservative about releasing new stuff without exhaustively testing it. With millions of users though not every permutation can't be tested beforehand but I don't expect anything seriously wrong when High Sierra is released.
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I hope you're right - Apple has been willing to inadequately cater to backward compatibility in some respects for some previous system changes. I'm thinking in particular of the colour management pipeline from display to printing. I hope they have the colour management community firmly engaged in this process.
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The beta program is open to all developers willing to participate and the signoff is not objectionable so the only reason a member of the color management community doesn't participate is they chose not to.
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That's pretty clear. Thanks Ron.
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Heck, I'm still using Mac OS 10.6.8 on a 2010 MacMini and have no problems editing my images just with CS5 ACR. No need for Nik collections or any other third party editing app. I get what I want right in ACR because I've found workarounds from learning how all the tools work.
OK, admonish away on my lack of system security and performance. I deserve it.
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Heck, I'm still using Mac OS 10.6.8 on a 2010 MacMini and have no problems editing my images just with CS5 ACR. No need for Nik collections or any other third party editing app. I get what I want right in ACR because I've found workarounds from learning how all the tools work.
OK, admonish away on my lack of system security and performance. I deserve it.
Stay where you are Tim, you're a wise man. I really miss 10.6 & my old Mac Pro. Since then it seems that apple is hell bent on giving their computer users the pad / smartphone experience.
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Nothing wrong with any of that if it is doing what you want from it and that appears to be the case.
I doubt that security is as risky an issue with OSX as it is with Windows, where updating the OS version is essential once they stop providing patches for whatever version the user is on. But even with OSX, Apple periodically issues security updates within the currently supported versions. I think Apple stopped doing this for 10.6 with the release of 10.6.8, which is quite a while ago. So not to admonish, but just to state a possibility - there is probably some low level risk of infection; not sure I would lose sleep over it.
Apart from security, the main reason to update the OS is when it fails to support new application or new application versions you want to use; but that isn't your case. It was mine, so I am on El Capitan.
As for the hardware, I'm still using my MacPro mid-2010 version because it just keeps going, and it's loaded with 24 GB RAM and 24 virtual cores, so performs very well. I shall carry on using it until it won't support new software that I may need, or it crashes beyond economic repair. So far I have to say the quality of the hardware has been very reliable.
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Something to think about…
New system (https://petapixel.com/2017/06/19/photographers-beware-upcoming-macos-transition-issues/)
The headline is a bit scare-mongering, but if you read on, the information is useful. Note that dropping support for 32-bit apps is still two years away—all that High Sierra does is start warning users about it, which to me is a good bit of "32-bit shaming" for companies like Adobe that have still not recompiled everything to 64-bit. (AFAIK, recompiling is all that is needed, so the only reason I can see for still shipping 32-bit software is to support people still running 32-bit hardware or a 32-bit version of macOS.)
The new APFS file system roll-out went amazingly smoothly when iOS did it to several gazillion iPhones, so I am optimistic about that one too. But anyway, I handle Apple's every Fall free macOS updates by waiting until I hear that the dust has settled; usually a bit into the New Year.
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Heck, I'm still using Mac OS 10.6.8 on a 2010 MacMini and have no problems editing my images just with CS5 ACR.
I still have 10.6.8 also, but I run it from a window in a machine running 10.12.5 using VMWare Fusion. I have programmes like Dreamweaver on it from 2000. I do have a lot of 32 bit programmes including accounting software, so they may be going this road.
The only issue I have ever had upgrading is when I went from 10.6 to 10.8 I think. The problem was not the OS specifically, just all the old applications and print drivers I had collected over the previous 10 years. A bit of housekeeping fixed it.
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Can anyone here tell any performance difference between apps that run in 32 bit vs apps that run in 64?
I always understood this to be a Ram usage efficiency improvement, more addressable instructions sent to Ram.
I've never been able to tell throughout all the Mac hardware and OS upgrades starting in OS 8 when my computer's performance got better with more Ram which now I have 8GB and sometimes I get the Raw Processing progress bar dialog box opening an ACR processed Raw image in Photoshop and sometimes the image just pops on the screen without the progress bar. I don't know if this is a Ram usage issue or just a slow computer. It doesn't bother me because every small task like opening something takes on average about six seconds.
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Can anyone here tell any performance difference between apps that run in 32 bit vs apps that run in 64?
I always understood this to be a Ram usage efficiency improvement, more addressable instructions sent to Ram.
I've never been able to tell throughout all the Mac hardware and OS upgrades starting in OS 8 when my computer's performance got better with more Ram which now I have 8GB and sometimes I get the Raw Processing progress bar dialog box opening an ACR processed Raw image in Photoshop and sometimes the image just pops on the screen without the progress bar. I don't know if this is a Ram usage issue or just a slow computer. It doesn't bother me because every small task like opening something takes on average about six seconds.
I remember Photoshop being upgraded to 64 bit for OS X ( CS2? ). It felt much faster.
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Typically, additional RAM only makes noticeable performance gains by keeping the OS from paging to disk. This is somewhat remediated with the use of SSDs but nothing beats having RAM for applications that need it. My personal example is my wife who normally has severable GB files open in PS. Her performance issues went away with a new 27" iMac and 40 GB RAM.
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I still have 10.6.8 also, but I run it from a window in a machine running 10.12.5 using VMWare Fusion.
In general, virtual machines might be an adequate hack to keep old, non-conforming software running on an old OS version, and if one uses the free-but-clunky software VirtualBox (https://www.virtualbox.org), it costs nothing. My guess is that if the software is old enough to need that virtual machine hack, it is also modest enough in resource needs to work adequately that way.
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Can anyone here tell any performance difference between apps that run in 32 bit vs apps that run in 64?
Maybe. Depends on:
- How efficiently the operating system supports 32-bit applications. An emulation layer typically is required to map 32-bit address references to the larger address space.
- The efficiency of the 64-bit application code. Application vendors may decide to do the least work necessary to make their products 64-bit clean. Or they may use the opportunity to perform some code optimization. If they do the latter, there may be some significant performance benefit on identical hardware.
I experienced one of these application conversions years ago in an enterprise environment. The end-users probably couldn't detect any difference for products in the first category, but the administrators were able to measure a considerable improvement in aggregate system efficiency. For products that underwent additional code optimization (i.e., not specifically limited to the 64-bit conversion), the improvement was sometimes quite significant.
In general, I wouldn't sweat this change. I suspect that if any major application vendors run into difficulty meeting the deadline for making their software 64-bit clean—that would certainly include Adobe—Apple probably will simply slip the date.
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In general, virtual machines might be an adequate hack to keep old, non-conforming software running on an old OS version, and if one uses the free-but-clunky software VirtualBox (https://www.virtualbox.org), it costs nothing. My guess is that if the software is old enough to need that virtual machine hack, it is also modest enough in resource needs to work adequately that way.
That was true years ago but these days if a major company bought a Windows server "in the cloud" from a tier one telecommunications provider then almost certainly it would be a Windows server running on VMware on a Unix host. Vitualisation has come a long way. Having said that, yes, most old applications don't require huge resources. New versions are often bloated to keep the industry ticking over with paid "updates" and the need for faster machines controlled by the same pair of human hands. Of course we all type much faster this century.
The integration with the iPad and iPhone to Mac is fabulous though. That is where the real productivity has come from in recent years. If I search for something on my browser on my Mac and then later I am out in the field and need it I just start typing it into Safari on the iPhone and the link pops up.
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That was true years ago but these days if a major company bought a Windows server "in the cloud" from a tier one telecommunications provider then almost certainly it would be a Windows server running on VMware on a Unix host.
Of course; I was just thinking of the specific case of keeping an old 32-bit macOS app running within a future "pure 64-bit" versions of macOS, without the extra cost of VMWare or Parallels.
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Of course; I was just thinking of the specific case of keeping an old 32-bit macOS app running within a future "pure 64-bit" versions of macOS, without the extra cost of VMWare or Parallels.
A case in point, as far as 32 vs 64 and current apps is concerned. For many years I've been using the Silverfast scan software from Lasersoft Imaging. I'm still using an old Epson Expression 1680 scanner for over sized prints that I need to reproduce. The scanner glass on that machine is flush with the bed, therefore accommodating several bites of a print that are usually very easily reconstructed in PS. I have scanned several 20x30 originals on that scanner, with a standard size sensor for a flatbed. It's been a while, but I believe a 20x30 requires 8 bites. I'm very thankful that Lasersoft is still supporting the 1680, which is a 32 bit app. When I need that scanner I simply go to Info and choose the 32bit mode for the Silverfast app, as opposed to the "normal" 64bit selection for the Epson V750. Hopefully Lasersoft will continue to support some of these older scanners for many years to come. Otherwise I would have to pop for something like an Epson 12,000XL if I could still locate one.
Gary
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A case in point, as far as 32 vs 64 and current apps is concerned. For many years I've been using the Silverfast scan software from Lasersoft Imaging. I'm still using an old Epson Expression 1680 scanner for over sized prints that I need to reproduce. The scanner glass on that machine is flush with the bed, therefore accommodating several bites of a print that are usually very easily reconstructed in PS. I have scanned several 20x30 originals on that scanner, with a standard size sensor for a flatbed. It's been a while, but I believe a 20x30 requires 8 bites. I'm very thankful that Lasersoft is still supporting the 1680, which is a 32 bit app. When I need that scanner I simply go to Info and choose the 32bit mode for the Silverfast app, as opposed to the "normal" 64bit selection for the Epson V750. Hopefully Lasersoft will continue to support some of these older scanners for many years to come. Otherwise I would have to pop for something like an Epson 12,000XL if I could still locate one.
Gary
For your scanner model, according to Lasersoft Imaging, "Photoshop CS6 and higher on OS X are only supported if 64 bit drivers are available for the scanner". According to Epson the current scanner driver supporting El Capitan is ICA Scanner Driver v5.8.6 for Image Capture. It doesn't say whether this is a 32 or 64 bit driver, but if Epson says the scanner driver works with OSX 10.11.x and SilverFast supports this scanner model, perhaps you are OK - for now.
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The restriction on 32 bit apps will likely happen over a 2 year period after the release of High Sierra according to Apple. Since Apple revs the OS annually you likely won't even be running High Sierra when that day comes.
The new file system has already been implemented on iOS devices and 32 bit apps continue to work but they won't after a period of time, likely 2 years. This means that apps whose developers who have abandoned their apps will stop running. I have some 32 bit apps on my iOS devices but they haven't been updated in years and I will simply delete them when the time comes.
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There is also the option of cloning your current operating system/applications and booting off that drive when you want use the legacy 32-Bit programs.
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Various thoughts on this:
•In computer-land, one must always be thinking and moving ahead, operating at least within a few years' timeframe of the latest offerings. Technology is not going to stand still, whether it really needs to move ahead or not. Linger too long, and you are locked out of using the latest software goodies. Of course, it all depends on what you are doing, maybe you can get away with legacy hardware/software (word processing? Image retouching? Video editing?)
That said, I don't want to be overtaken by the Internet Of Things and get my car or refridgerator hacked, so there are some areas where you might be wise to opt out.
•Re: Mac vs. Windows: Build a Hackintosh, use 3 different OS's on the same box if you want to. Keep the macOS license happy by using an old Apple G5 case ("branded Apple hardware"). Not that Apple seems to care anyway, so long as the App Store works ;-). I have a 2011-build i7 Hack that I bought from a friend and tweaked a bit (more RAM [16 gigs], updated from Snow Leopard to El Capitan, added Windows 10, gave up on Linux for now since I don't really need it, though it's nice to have the option). It's the fastest computer I have (even with HDD drives), though it's more of a fun box and not my main gig.
•Re: Old scanners. Use VueScan (www.hamrick.com). It supports all sorts of new and ancient scanners
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•Re: Old scanners. Use VueScan (www.hamrick.com). It supports all sorts of new and ancient scanners
+1. I run a 9 year old cheapo Canon using Vuescan & I can still use our Minolta slide scanner ( purchased in 2001 or 2002 ) should I need to. The software supplied with the Minolta was OS9 only.
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I'm running the High Sierra public beta on my iMac 27" 5k and new MacBook Pro 13" laptop. It works great. I love the new speed and the changes to Safari, Mail and Notes.
Regards,
Bud James
www.budjames.photography