Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: bernie west on April 28, 2017, 04:32:44 am
-
I think i've finally lost the plot with the Lightroom detail tab. Nothing seems to produce the results I expect. I've pretty much become a random slide mover. One day I'm using high details and low radius.. the next day I'm using high amount and low details. The next I'm using masking at 10... then the next day at 60. I don't know what I'm doing. I think the only thing I can operate successfully there is the color noise slider. I find that 10-15 fixes almost all colour noise I encounter.
I've reverted to just using the built in presets for sharpening (scenic or face) and just randomly moving the noise reduction sliders around. To be honest, I'm fairly happy with the sharpening from the presets. But if I need to mask out the sky etc in a noisy image, it all turns to crap when I start trying to use the masking slider. Low or high, I just can't get a result that looks even mildly acceptable. I find the masking has to be quite strong to be effective, but the transition from masked to not masked is then quite abrupt and messy. Then I have to adjust the sharpening and noise sliders to try and fix that, and it all goes totally pear-shaped.
So, what are the settings you like to use, and why? I'm interested in knowing how you perceive the image to change with each of the sliders. I just read some old threads where Schewe and others gave some more detailed info on what exactly some of the sliders do (like the sharpening being predominantly USM below 50 on the details slider, and more deconvolution above 50; and also how the local sharpening slider works - below negative 50 for blur, -50 to 0 for less local capture sharpening, 0 to 100 for more local capture sharpening).
So what settings do you like to use for what images?
-
No advice to give, but in case you don't know: holding ALT (or Option on a Mac) while moving the Detail sliders gives a better view of what's happening. The effect varies on the slider (and does nothing on the colour ones) - if you've not tried this, see what it does.
-
Simon,
thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten this. Very helpful.
Brad
-
Oh, I'd forgotten that too. Cheers!
-
Have a look at this video. Jeff Schewe explains it quite well. (Don't worry that it is a Lightroom 4 video - it hasn't changed)
Lightroom sharpening video (https://luminous-landscape.com/videos/guide-to-lightroom-4-introduction-advanced/sharpening/)
-
Even after a few years with all this stuff, a number of sliders in the detail panel still remain a bit on the fuzzy side, for me. Although I'm not completely random with it anymore.. More like ordered randomness. ;)
OTOH, I think this is one of the panels that will always remain extremely subjective.. And one where subjectiveness itself will always be heavily changing even in the same person, and even for the same image, over time (and also including whether or not one is wearing their computer glasses at the time, like they're supposed to :-[ ). I also don't think it helps that I've never come across any completely hard detailed facts on what each slider does technically.. As in, from a Lightroom programmer's explanation. For all I know, those details may even be a trade secret protected by nda's..??
So I think refreshers are probably always in order from time to time, even if it's just to [re-]hear others' perspectives on what they like to do with them.
And for people that aren't able to view the previously mentioned video, like myself, here's a good explanatory on YouTube from Anthony Morganti:
https://youtu.be/KkrYXOszvfI (https://youtu.be/KkrYXOszvfI)
-
I just read some old threads where Schewe and others gave some more detailed info on what exactly some of the sliders do ( [snip] and also how the local sharpening slider works - below negative 50 for blur, -50 to 0 for less local capture sharpening, 0 to 100 for more local capture sharpening).
Do you happen to still have those links handy on the local sharpening info? I could use a refresher on those specifics, since I just had a case where I only wanted to reduce the capture sharpening part.
-
Even after a few years with all this stuff, a number of sliders in the detail panel still remain a bit on the fuzzy side, for me. Although I'm not completely random with it anymore.. More like ordered randomness. ;)
OTOH, I think this is one of the panels that will always remain extremely subjective.. And one where subjectiveness itself will always be heavily changing even in the same person over time (and also including whether or not one is wearing their computer glasses at the time, like they're supposed to :-[ ). I also don't think it helps that I've never come across any completely hard detailed facts on what each slider does technically.. As in, from a Lightroom programmer's explanation. For all I know, those details may even be a trade secret protected by nda's..??
So I think refreshers are probably always in order from time to time, even if it's just to [re-]hear others' perspectives on what they like to do with them.
And for people that aren't able to view the previously mentioned video, like myself, here's a good explanatory on YouTube from Anthony Morganti:
https://youtu.be/KkrYXOszvfI (https://youtu.be/KkrYXOszvfI)
Sorry, I jumped to the conclusion that those posting on this forum were also Lula members.
-
Bernie, you are clearly stumbling around in the dark.
The best advice has already been given so I will only second this: get the Lightroom tutorial videos from this site - Jeff Schewe does the best job of explaining what is going on in the details tab.
To emphasise - there is no one-size-fits-all combination of detail settings so to ask for a straw poll of settings is pretty meaningless. Each image needs to be dealt with on its own merits.
By the time Jeff is through explaining to you how to approach sharpening and noise reduction you will really understand my comments.
Tony Jay
-
Do you happen to still have those links handy on the local sharpening info? I could use a refresher on those specifics, since I just had a case where I only wanted to reduce the capture sharpening part.
No, I'd have to google to try and find them again. What I mentioned was pretty much all that was said. There were two opinions of how the details slider worked (one was as I described, and the other was that it was all USM below 50 and all deconvolution above 50), but they were never detailed any further.
-
Dave and Tony... I'm not going to get a subscription at this stage. I'm only really on the site about once or twice a year these days. It's usually possible to find everything out by reading various posts here and around the web and by getting tidbits here and there from asking direct questions. Of course, it takes forever and a lot of digging to do it that way...
-
Interestingly after I started this thread I decided to do a bit of a test of different methods/sliders. I just grabbed a random image with lots of detail out what was open in my lightroom catalogue at the time and tried a few different things. Focussed (so to speak) on an area that was in focus and just moving towards out of focus. The idea was to test whether using details above 50 would provide some deconvolution in those areas ever so lightly out of focus. I also tried using Nik Raw Pre-sharpener. And also no raw sharpening. Then I output sharpened to screen on the images with either Smart Sharpen in PS or the output sharpening for screen in LR. The end result? Using the "scenic" preset in LR with "strong" output sharpening in LR looked better than all the other combinations. That's not to say that it's going to work best for all images, but it put my mind at ease a bit that the presets are pretty good for that type of landscape image.
-
There were two opinions of how the details slider worked (one was as I described, and the other was that it was all USM below 50 and all deconvolution above 50), but they were never detailed any further.
FWIW, I'll add my vote to the first way that's been described. My understanding has been that it's a completely gradual mix from one end to the other.
One big name to look for in searches is Eric Chan - one of the main camera raw engineers.. Often goes by the nickname "Madman Chan"/"madmanchan". I think I'll do the same, cause I could use a refresher, especially on the local bit. I'll make sure to save them somewhere this time, like I did for the guidelines on HDR exposure ranges for LR's built-in feature. (Edit: I should probably clarify that I know for sure Eric(IIRC) has gone into a little bit of detail about this, but it's been a while since I read it. Neither do I remember which site it was from.)
-
In the latter part of this video he goes into the detail tab in camera raw and describes his method for sharpening. This is also his favorite way to sharpen from all the options: https://fstoppers.com/education/how-sharpen-images-photoshop-175056
-
Interestingly after I started this thread I decided to do a bit of a test of different methods/sliders. I just grabbed a random image with lots of detail out what was open in my lightroom catalogue at the time and tried a few different things. Focussed (so to speak) on an area that was in focus and just moving towards out of focus. The idea was to test whether using details above 50 would provide some deconvolution in those areas ever so lightly out of focus. I also tried using Nik Raw Pre-sharpener. And also no raw sharpening. Then I output sharpened to screen on the images with either Smart Sharpen in PS or the output sharpening for screen in LR. The end result? Using the "scenic" preset in LR with "strong" output sharpening in LR looked better than all the other combinations. That's not to say that it's going to work best for all images, but it put my mind at ease a bit that the presets are pretty good for that type of landscape image.
Just to expand on this...
The image I chose was low ISO and reasonably well lit. Where i tend to get in trouble is when I have to do both sharpening and noise reduction in LR. That's when things tend to get confusing. I find myself going back and forth between sharpening and noise reduction trying to find the right point of both to give the optimal output. I really struggle to get something that I am happy with.
-
Dave and Tony... I'm not going to get a subscription at this stage. I'm only really on the site about once or twice a year these days.
You won't spend $12? What are you thinking?
Jeremy
-
You won't spend $12? What are you thinking?
Even as a one off to access the videos it's a bargain.
-
This short video on the Detail Panel gives a short and refreshing tutorial on the use of the Detail Paned in Lightroom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7oEFc-UO1Q
-
You won't spend $12? What are you thinking?
I'm thinking that money is short and I only spend things on what I absolutely have to. I'll forward you my bank details since money comes and goes easy for you.
-
I'm thinking that money is short and I only spend things on what I absolutely have to. I'll forward you my bank details since money comes and goes easy for you.
Hear, here. Must be nice to be able to spend money frivolously. Consider yourself VERY fortunate if you can.. And hope you never come across a disabling illness.
-
I'm thinking that money is short and I only spend things on what I absolutely have to. I'll forward you my bank details since money comes and goes easy for you.
You've spent thousands on kit, but won't spend a tiny amount on learning how to get the best from it ?
You just expect other people to help you at their expense and won't pay a token amount to help support the site that provides that platform.
-
No, I'd have to google to try and find them again. What I mentioned was pretty much all that was said. There were two opinions of how the details slider worked (one was as I described, and the other was that it was all USM below 50 and all deconvolution above 50), but they were never detailed any further.
One, of many, approaches is to turn sharpening off (amount=0). Then, adjust for noise, if any....Low iso, well lit should have little. Then sharpen. At that point any noise introduced is from sharpening. Strong use of mask will reduce effect on flat areas and allow stronger amounts. Each image is different, so, as I'm sure you know, there are no settings that work for all.
-
You've spent thousands on kit, but won't spend a tiny amount on learning how to get the best from it ?
You just expect other people to help you at their expense and won't pay a token amount to help support the site that provides that platform.
Sod off. It's a bloody forum to ask questions and advice. If you can't handle the fact that I am careful with money, you've got issues. No one is forcing you to provide advice or even post your whiney crap in this thread.
-
Sod off. It's a bloody forum to ask questions and advice. If you can't handle the fact that I am careful with money, you've got issues. No one is forcing you to provide advice or even post your whiney crap in this thread.
There's only one (actually, make that two) people posting "whiney crap".
I am careful with money.
You are mean.
His wallet is a designated nature reserve for moths.
You've asked for advice. The advice is that the best source of good, reliable information, from an excellent teacher and first-rate professional photographer, who has studied the issues on which you seek assistance and indeed written, or been involved in writing, software to do just what you want, will cost you $12. Either you're interested in learning or you think the world owes you a living.
Jeremy
-
This short video on the Detail Panel gives a short and refreshing tutorial on the use of the Detail Paned in Lightroom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7oEFc-UO1Q
Well, sadly, Ed doesn't really have a clue what the sliders in the Detail panel are actually doing...so, you'll want to ignore what he says they are doing but hey, the upside is it's free!!!
-
Sod off. It's a bloody forum to ask questions and advice. If you can't handle the fact that I am careful with money, you've got issues. No one is forcing you to provide advice or even post your whiney crap in this thread.
You likely won't get much from this web site with an attitude like this...
BTW, I'm the one that Adobe had design the the two sharpening presets that you seem to find useful, you are welcome BTW :~)
I was just about ready to post in this thread to help you but since you wrote this pissy post, I think you can take your own advice and SOD OFF...
-
This short video on the Detail Panel gives a short and refreshing tutorial on the use of the Detail Paned in Lightroom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7oEFc-UO1Q
I have not checked out this video until now.
My assumption was that it was relatively accurate and sensible.
How wrong I was!
There is absolutely no useful explanation of how the sliders work, nor a useful strategy on how to employ these sliders in different sorts of images.
Frankly the informational value of this video is on the level of twaddle.
There is much better stuff on YouTube than this extremely poor video but with your current level of knowledge would you be able to tell the difference?
To the OP:
You are allowed to ask questions and seek advice.
In response to your question advice has been given.
This advice you have chosen to reject.
Given the struggle you are having with the detail sub-panel it is my guess that you are just as much at sea with many other aspects of the Lightroom application (no fault here per se - we were all once Lightroom novices).
On this site there are hundreds of hours of high class tutorial videos dealing with every aspect of workflow within Lightroom (and other applications for that matter).
ALL of these hundreds of hours of video material is available for that $12 per year.
Frankly, especially if you are on a budget, this is the best value deal you will find - Lynda.com etc notwithstanding, to kickstart your photographic and post-processing workflow.
BTW Jeff Schewe is the author (in combination with the Adobe engineers of course) of the detail sub-panel in Lightroom - the algorithms are largely based on a prior piece of software called Photokit Sharpener of which Jeff was a co-author.
Who better than Jeff to guide you through its workings?
So pull your head in and take the advice proffered.
Tony Jay
-
BTW Jeff Schewe is the author (in combination with the Adobe engineers of course) of the detail sub-panel in Lightroom - the algorithms are largely based on a prior piece of software called Photokit Sharpener of which Jeff was a co-author.
Who better than Jeff to guide you through its workings?
Speaking of that, and to try and steer this thread back into a productive direction... ;D
Jeff, are you able to tell more about a couple of sliders in the luminance noise-reduction subsection? Namely: the difference between the detail slider and contrast slider. If both would be working on edge contrast detection, then what makes the contrast slider different?
That's the main slider that still eludes me in there. I try it on images and sometimes see differences, but I still can't quite wrap my head around what I'm seeing, what it's doing - and therefore how to best use it.
-
Well, sadly, Ed doesn't really have a clue what the sliders in the Detail panel are actually doing...so, you'll want to ignore what he says they are doing but hey, the upside is it's free!!!
Yeah, his descriptions sounds flat out wrong.
-
Jeff, are you able to tell more about a couple of sliders in the luminance noise-reduction subsection? Namely: the difference between the detail slider and contrast slider. If both would be working on edge contrast detection, then what makes the contrast slider different?
Sadly to the confusion of many (most) there are too many "detail" sliders in the "Detail" panel :~)
The detail slider in the noise reduction sub panel allows you to vary the underlaying determination of what is image detail and what is noise. The higher the detail setting (50 is default) the more image detail will be preserved, below 50 the image detail is treated more like noise and eliminated. The Contrast slider bring in a roughness to help eliminate that synthetic fake looking blurred noise reduction.
Note, this really is only useful with higher ISO settings where noise is easier to see. Tough to see at low ISO.
Also note that when working on high ISO with strong noise reduction I'll often add in some small sized grain effects to do something like the contrast slider.
-
You likely won't get much from this web site with an attitude like this...
My attitude was fine until some fragile soul couldn't handle the fact that he can't spend other people's money for them.
BTW, I'm the one that Adobe had design the the two sharpening presets that you seem to find useful, you are welcome BTW :~)
Awesome! ;D
I was just about ready to post in this thread to help you but since you wrote this pissy post, I think you can take your own advice and SOD OFF...
Whatever. You're known for your curmudgeonly disposition. As others have said, it's a bit crazy that we can purchase software and then have ferret around all over the internet to understand the absolute basics of how a slider works. I've watched all the adobe videos with Julieanne Kost, and while it's great to see the sliders in action used by a pro, she doesn't tell you anything regarding what they do that you can't work out by looking the words up in a dictionary and/or playing with them yourself. The type of info that I found from a thread where you commented a few years ago was exactly the type of stuff that should be included in all basic official channels.
Just a quick comment on the "we must all pay for asking for advice on a free web forum" bollocks... If some of the perennial offended members in this thread would care to look at my early posting history, they can see that I gave a hell of a lot to this site and to stuffy old film users who had no f'ing clue about digital and how sensors worked. Going by the attitude of the clown who got offended that he couldn't spend my money for me, I suspect he was one of those early users who would have had no clue of how digital and sensor worked, and despite the efforts of people like you, Andrew Rodney and myself and others (i'm obviously not putting myself in the same class of expertise as you and Andrew), these old clowns still refused to accept the concepts of ETTR, raw exposure, noise and a whole lot of other concepts that are widely accepted today. [/rant]
-
I have not checked out this video until now.
My assumption was that it was relatively accurate and sensible.
How wrong I was!
There is absolutely no useful explanation of how the sliders work, nor a useful strategy on how to employ these sliders in different sorts of images.
Frankly the informational value of this video is on the level of twaddle.
There is much better stuff on YouTube than this extremely poor video but with your current level of knowledge would you be able to tell the difference?
To the OP:
You are allowed to ask questions and seek advice.
In response to your question advice has been given.
This advice you have chosen to reject.
I rejected one single piece of advice. And I rejected it calmly and politely. The "advisor" couldn't handle that. Cry me a river.
Who better than Jeff to guide you through its workings?
I absolutely highly respect Jeff, which I would have thought was obvious as I quoted his advice in this thread. What thread are you reading?
So pull your head in and take the advice proffered.
Pull your own head in. And learn to read while you are at it.
-
The Contrast slider bring in a roughness to help eliminate that synthetic fake looking blurred noise reduction.
Can you expand on that if you are willing?
-
Sadly to the confusion of many (most) there are too many "detail" sliders in the "Detail" panel :~)
The detail slider in the noise reduction sub panel allows you to vary the underlaying determination of what is image detail and what is noise. The higher the detail setting (50 is default) the more image detail will be preserved, below 50 the image detail is treated more like noise and eliminated. The Contrast slider bring in a roughness to help eliminate that synthetic fake looking blurred noise reduction.
Note, this really is only useful with higher ISO settings where noise is easier to see. Tough to see at low ISO.
Also note that when working on high ISO with strong noise reduction I'll often add in some small sized grain effects to do something like the contrast slider.
Thanks for posting that info Jeff. They're the two sliders in the Detail panel that I've never been quite sure what I'm doing with.
-
I don't need to pull my head in - and I read just fine.
I am quite OK with leaving you to flounder around in your own confusion.
Picking fights with all and sundry is not going to get you a lot of credibility - especially when they only trying to help.
Tony Jay
-
I don't need to pull my head in - and I read just fine.
I am quite OK with leaving you to flounder around in your own confusion.
If you were truly OK you wouldn't have felt the need to leave a bitchy little comment. I've been on this forum a lot longer than you, and don't need newbies telling me what is and isn't appropriate. So, yes, you do need to pull your head in.
-
The Contrast slider bring in a roughness to help eliminate that synthetic fake looking blurred noise reduction.
Note, this really is only useful with higher ISO settings where noise is easier to see. Tough to see at low ISO.
Also note that when working on high ISO with strong noise reduction I'll often add in some small sized grain effects to do something like the contrast slider.
Thanks for explaining that. I have a bit better of an idea of that mysterious contrast slider. And that would go far to explain why it doesn't seem to do much for some/many files - I'll have to take note of the ISO going forward. It's also good to know that I'm not the only one that's been mystified by it - seems like there are now at least 3 of us. :)
Are you able to tell a bit more on how it 'brings in a roughness'? Like, does it bring back stronger edge-contrast areas, or maybe brings back in longer (lengthwise) continuous edges, or... ?? This seems to be one slider where it might greatly help to know, at least a little bit, more of what's going on under the hood.
Thanks.
-
I've been on this forum a lot longer than you, and don't need newbies telling me what is and isn't appropriate.
Just because you first registered here a long time ago doesn't mean you offer anything of value. If you even followed Lula regularly over the time you've been registered you wouldn't have needed to ask the your first question in this thread.
A quick look at your earliest posts showed you started being rude to people here at your fifth post.
Suggesting you have made any sort of significant or valuable contribution here is a fallacy.
-
Yawn. I thought you said you were OK. Seems you are still upset people don't automatically accept the nonsense you spew. Go away.
-
Sadly to the confusion of many (most) there are too many "detail" sliders in the "Detail" panel :~)
The detail slider in the noise reduction sub panel allows you to vary the underlaying determination of what is image detail and what is noise. The higher the detail setting (50 is default) the more image detail will be preserved, below 50 the image detail is treated more like noise and eliminated. The Contrast slider bring in a roughness to help eliminate that synthetic fake looking blurred noise reduction.
Note, this really is only useful with higher ISO settings where noise is easier to see. Tough to see at low ISO.
Also note that when working on high ISO with strong noise reduction I'll often add in some small sized grain effects to do something like the contrast slider.
Thanks for this reminder Jeff. As a user of Neat Image from many moons ago, it made perfect sense to me, as that piece of software had similar approach.
-
This topic is now locked. Let's stop the personal comments, please.