Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: narikin on April 20, 2017, 02:28:46 pm
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Clearly, with the announcement of the A9, we are seeing the arrival of true 'global shutter' sensor technology. This is great, and should be welcomed by all. What did this mean for Phase and MF shooters?
Obviously the next iteration of MF sensors will have some kind of implementation of this. It is of course harder to have the high speed shutter/flush on a big sensor than a smaller one, but still... it's coming.
Everyone expects the next generation to be around 100Mp in cropped, and 150mp in full MF. No disagreement with that. But if both of these come with an effective GS, then that means a big redesign at Phase is required. The will be no need for that giant, heavy mirror box, or for that matter a lens range formulated around that flange distance. Advantage Fuji, at this point.
First step will be an evf onto the XF. It's overdue already. With the mirror locked up out of the way, it could work with the GS/ES directly, but then you're carrying all that XF body bulk and weight around for nothing.
Clearly a new body is in order, and must be coming with the next generation sensors. Something based on the Mamiya 7 heritage that they own, maybe? Or the Alpa FPS body? Either would work, but there's no question Phase have to address this as a priority.
Any thoughts?
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Clearly, with the announcement of the A9, we are seeing the arrival of true 'global shutter' sensor technology.
I don't think it's "true" global shutter, because in the video (https://youtu.be/AREGOD7jf2s) you can still observe some rolling shutter effect. It has "anti-distortion" electronic shutter, but I suppose that's only for still photography, and not necessarily for video, and clearly not for live view.
Sony needs to intentionally castrate some features to protect the sales of their high-end products such like the F65.
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Everyone expects the next generation to be around 100Mp in cropped, and 150mp in full MF. No disagreement with that. But if both of these come with an effective GS, then that means a big redesign at Phase is required. The will be no need for that giant, heavy mirror box, or for that matter a lens range formulated around that flange distance.
the mirror box has nothing to do with the shutter, the mirror box is based on the reflex viewfinder experience. You eliminate the mirror box by moving to an electronic viewfinder, which then leads to a shorter flange distance, lighter camera, and hopefully lighter lenses. Both the X1D and GFX have shutters in their design.
The question is whether Phase has the resources and is interested in pursuing a mirrorless platform. Seems a potential market for them, and in reality it might very well be the future of all cameras. might be a little risky to ignore.
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Yes, Wayne, this is the MF forum and most of us know that. The Sony A9 has a shutter on it too, but it's there for the rare occasions when it will be needed, and the GS will take most of the workload. Fewer/no moving parts, less weight, prism gone, it all augers well for the future...
I agree Phase *have* to react to this new future. They probably are already. (What are all those extra contacts in the XF prism mount for?!). The XF remains a curiously old fashioned camera, despite its clever digital tricks, like focus stacking, seismograph, etc. It's pretty old school in it's basic design, and they'll need to bring out a new platform if they want to compete with Fuji and unnamed others as the new generation MF chips arrive. I have no doubt they will!
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As voidshatter said, the Sony A9 has a very fast rolling electronic shutter, and I have read that it still needs to use its mechanical shutter for flash photography. Still, it could be that the future in larger formats is leaf shutter for flash, electronic shutter in most other cases.
Leaf shutters cannot offer the large apertures of the brightest lenses, but maybe a lens can offer the best of both worlds: leaf shutter usable to about f/2.8, but lock it wide open when using the electronic shutter at larger apertures.
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New Sony a9 flash syncs at 1/250s. Is this thread much ado about nothing?
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My best guess is this post is 3-6 years early. Insightful and on point. But way early.
I do not agree that "Obviously the next iteration of MF sensors will have some kind of implementation of [a true global sensor-based electronic shutter]. My guess is this is more likely 2-3 generations away.
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Am I the only one who hates EVF? Another Computer Screen you get forced to use.
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Am I the only one who hates EVF? Another Computer Screen you get forced to use.
You are not alone!
Cheers,
Bernard
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Why Doug? We already have ES implementation in the IQ3100, and many of us are shocked how useful that is, even if it's a very slow first generation iteration.
Sony have jumped ahead with the A9, and it's remarkable GS. That said, it is only 24mp on 35mm FF, so we'll see what they can do in terms of this when the other shoe drops, and the high resolution A9R comes out with the expected 60mp. If they can make that work up to 1/2500 with little rolling shutter, then it's looking good for MF.
That said, my personal guess is it will come first to crop MF, and then we'll have to wait one more generation to FF MF. I would not be surprised if the next generation Fuji doesn't have it, in some form, at around 100Mp.
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Hi,
The A9 has no global shutter, it has a fast electronic shutter of electronic curtain type. How does such as shutter work?
- The first curtain is a sweeping reset of the sensor. One row of the sensor is reset, after say 500 ns the row is reset. Reset starts exposure. This sweeping reset can be very fast.
- The second curtain is the readout. Exposure stops when data is read out from a row. To be correct exposure continues, but the rest is thrown away. This readout is limited by Analogue to Digital Conversion (ADC) times.
The second electronic curtain speed is limited by ADC-conversion. On the A7rII I think it is about 1/14s (measured by Jim Kasson), while on the IQ3100MP it is more than on second.
What the A9 has done was to stack much of the signal processing behind the photodiodes. That was they could probably add more ADC units and have a wider connection to other processing units. So, the sweeping readout is much faster. Making the fully electronic shutter usable for many shooting situations.
So, I don't think the A9 shutter is a replacement for leaf shutters.
Whether Phase One need to consider an EVF option or not is another question and a hard one at that. EVF in medium format means CDAF (Contrast Detection based AF) and that needs a focus by wire lens system. Going EVF means a new lens line. Hasselblad has done it, Fuji has done it. It can be done.
Next question is what sensor size? Both Hasselblad and Fuji went with 44x33 mm. Both Hasselblad and Fuji designed their lenses for that format. Fuji says their lenses are optimised for 100MP, and that also applies to Hasselblad with all probability. It seems that Sony will deliver 100 MP in the 44x33mm format in 2018.
Now, will Phase go into competition with sub 10 k$US small medium format? Or will they aim to be masters of 56x40 mm "full frame 645"? The 56x40 mm format will also have a new 150 MP sensor from Sony.
Here in Sweden
| Hasselblad X1D body | 87 300 SEK |
| Hasselblad H6D-50C body | 223 296 SEK |
| Hasselblad H5X body | 45 950 |
The Hasselblad H5X body combined the X1D 50c body would cost 124 250 SEK, that is 99 000 SEK less than the H6D-50c, although both systems use the same sensor, electronics and firmware. So, those 99 kSEK are pure mark up. In practice you can divided those prices by 10 to get into $US.
My hunch is that Phase One is more interested in high end medium format than low end medium format.
Best regards
Erik
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I see no reason to drastically change the XF, or the H6 for that matter. If you pull out the mirror, the only way to use existing lenses is with that as an equally sized empty space. This is why the mirrorless cameras all require new glass, which is platform specific. Plus, without the mirrorbox depth, there is nothing to hold onto with existing backs and the balance in hand would be thrown off.
Global shutters _may_ replace a focal plane or leaf shutters down the road, but really, the shutter is the least of my worries. Data transfer rates on the higher MP cameras, focus abilities with the larger lenses, focal lengths - both long and wide, and things like that are all higher on the to be dealt with list.
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My hunch is that Phase One is more interested in high end medium format than low end medium format.
That would imply that somehow Phase was better than the competitor/s?
My impression having gone through Mamiya AFD bodies, then H1 with Phase back then H3D with integrated Hasselblad back does not support that. Not only do I think the Hasselblad H3D onwards was better, but it was actually much cheaper than I paid for the H1 with the Phase back.
Medium format has got cheaper certainly. 35mm seems to have not only not got cheaper but often dearer, so the gap has narrowed.
I think phase is just not at the right price point.
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My best guess is this post is 3-6 years early. Insightful and on point. But way early.
Global shutter is not a must to make mechanical shutter obsolete. Non-global electronic shutter with a sufficiently fast sensor readout is.
I measured Canon 7D's mechanical rolling shutter as 1/444, and Olympus E-M1 II electronic rolling shutter as 1/63, not that far. This is a simulation of how much 1/60 can affect in a sports application (tennis):
(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/rollingshutter/raqueta.gif)
Sensor readout times have improved a lot over time:
(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/rollingshutter/readoutevolution.png)
Let's see where this A9 falls, but looking at that evolution I think we'll have cameras where electronic shutter will be the preferred option by 2018.
Regards
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Pressure starts IMO when and if the next 44 x 33 arrives at 100MP for P1. They will be a bit behind the curve by then if they wait.
I would not however be surprised if P1 brings out the first mirrorless in the 44 x 33 chip size similar to how they worked with Sony on the 100MP chip.
No doubt that P1 current offerings are excellent, however the sheer mass of the P1 system with say the 40-80 and 75-150 LS BL lenses is massive. I believe the XF, IQ3100 and 40-80 with 2 batteries installed is close to 9.5 pounds.
The legacy lenses can easily be adapted to the mirror less body, with an adapter, just like Fuji made for the Hasselblad H lenses. Just need to allow for the mirror box.
As for an EVF on the XF, I would love the option, but I believe only the IQ3100 could use it (HDMI) output allowed. Optical is great for framing, not so great for critical focus as the eyes get older. If P1 could put the power of their IQ screen into an EVF, that would be an amazing camera solution.
Paul Caldwell
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+1 on older eyes - or better put, high MP tattles more when you don't nail focus. As much as I love the H6, I think the honeycomb AF on the XF may actually lend itself to the higher resolutions. It would make for a fun/interesting shootout - thinking something of a robotic arm w/ pre-positioned targets, and a couple of different scenes, how does the AF compare. That big ass viewfinder has a big ass AF area, and when shooting relatively open, that shallow DoF really can pick a different target.
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That would imply that somehow Phase was better than the competitor/s?
My impression having gone through Mamiya AFD bodies, then H1 with Phase back then H3D with integrated Hasselblad back does not support that. Not only do I think the Hasselblad H3D onwards was better
The Phase One XF is very, very different from the Mamiya AFD based bodies. I hope you get a chance to play with one at some point; having used the AFD you'll greatly appreciate how much work went into the XF as a next-gen medium format platform.
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Global shutter is not a must to make mechanical shutter obsolete. Non-global electronic shutter with a sufficiently fast sensor readout is.
To replace a focal plane shutter the readout speed of a rolling shutter really only needs to be in the hundreds for most applications.
But high-end medium format is known for it's leaf shutter and for that you need an incredibly fast rolling shutter. In practice you'd really want a true global shutter (instant/simultaneous).
Do you own or use a camera with a leaf shutter? It's transformative for working mixing strobe+ambient. Nothing else comes close.
I'm not arguing global shutters won't be useful (they are) or wouldn't drive sales (they would). I'm only arguing that they are not around the corner as implied by this post.
I'll leave you with the biased opinion that if/when they come, that Team Phase One would likely be the first to release a camera with it. They were first to long-exposure medium format, the first to full-frame 645 sensors, the first to 60mp, the first to 80mp, the first to CMOS medium format*, the first to 100mp, and the first medium format with a zero-mechanical-action rolling electronic shutter.
*technically there was a Leaf CMOST back long ago but it was a commercial flop and not really related to modern CMOS cameras.
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True that you need a global shutter for fast flash stuff to simulate a LS lens, however, I for one don't need LS lenses and I'm really sad that all new phase lenses just got bigger and bigger. For me just a waste of weight. Phase really lost focus on good small lenses without the stupid LS...
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I'll leave you with the biased opinion that if/when they come, that Team Phase One would likely be the first to release a camera with it. They were first to long-exposure medium format, the first to full-frame 645 sensors, the first to 60mp, the first to 80mp, the first to CMOS medium format*, the first to 100mp, and the first medium format with a zero-mechanical-action rolling electronic shutter.
*technically there was a Leaf CMOST back long ago but it was a commercial flop and not really related to modern CMOS cameras.
If future developments in medium format sensors appear first in the cropped medium format sensors, which seems likely as that is where the volume market will be what with the success of the GFX and the X1D, I think the days of Phase One dominance are over. Fuji has the resources on so many levels to go head to head with Phase. No way Phase is getting an exclusive on the next generation of cropped medium format sensors, either as a contractual matter or because it has superior financial and other resources to bring a product to market with it faster. There is a new Sheriff in town.
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Hi Paul,
I see it a tiny bit differently…
It seems that the new lenses for the Fuji GFX are excellent, although there are some indications on weak corners from Diglloyd and some indications on focusing accuracy from both Diglloyd and Jim Kasson. But, focusing issues or not, it seems that the GFX can deliver astounding images.
It may be that the X1D has even better lenses, but it is a bit limited by the lack of FP-shutter.
Sony has a roadmap for 100 MP on 44x33, so we will see 100 MP systems, late 2018 or early 2019. I would guess they will be reasonably priced, as sensor area does not increase. But, all involved can make some markup for 100 MP.
I would also hope the 100 MP is a contemporary design, with CDAF and fast electronic shutter and advantages in pixel design.
A 44x33 mm EVF camera makes a lot of sense, but it needs new lenses. To begin with lenses designed for the smaller pixel size and preferable lenses in a shorter mount.
My guess is that we also need to discuss larger volumes. Hasselblad was talking about 30000 preorders and there is little doubts Fuji GFX is selling in thousands. Phase One used to be a small volume high cost manufacturer. Do they want to go into throat cutting competition?
Hasselblad must ask themselves a few questions. The H6D quiet obviously has a 10k$US markup compared to the X1D, but X1D is selling hotcakes. So they have a winner in the stable along that old trusted stallion. Chief of Strategy Ming Thein has some stuff to do…
Best regards
Erik
Pressure starts IMO when and if the next 44 x 33 arrives at 100MP for P1. They will be a bit behind the curve by then if they wait.
I would not however be surprised if P1 brings out the first mirrorless in the 44 x 33 chip size similar to how they worked with Sony on the 100MP chip.
No doubt that P1 current offerings are excellent, however the sheer mass of the P1 system with say the 40-80 and 75-150 LS BL lenses is massive. I believe the XF, IQ3100 and 40-80 with 2 batteries installed is close to 9.5 pounds.
The legacy lenses can easily be adapted to the mirror less body, with an adapter, just like Fuji made for the Hasselblad H lenses. Just need to allow for the mirror box.
As for an EVF on the XF, I would love the option, but I believe only the IQ3100 could use it (HDMI) output allowed. Optical is great for framing, not so great for critical focus as the eyes get older. If P1 could put the power of their IQ screen into an EVF, that would be an amazing camera solution.
Paul Caldwell
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True that you need a global shutter for fast flash stuff to simulate a LS lens, however, I for one don't need LS lenses and I'm really sad that all new phase lenses just got bigger and bigger. For me just a waste of weight. Phase really lost focus on good small lenses without the stupid LS...
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Agree, I buy the non LS versions. I simply don't need one, as I never use Flash/Strobe.
Doug, you're getting a little bit blind-sided with all your studio customers making you think LS is a total necessity. It isn't for a lot of photographers. I'd go so far at to say more than half. Maybe even more than 75%.
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Sony has a roadmap for 100 MP on 44x33, so we will see 100 MP systems, late 2018 or early 2019.
I think it will be released earlier than that. Early 2018. Less than a year for sure.
There's an obvious answer here: Phase release a crop MF 100mp Mirrorless, like Fuji/Hassy, with its own narrow lens range plus an adapter for the existing Phase lenses. They keep the XF for the 150Mp full MF chip that's coming too. So: you have the big headline ultra Mp chip on the XF, and a cheaper 100Mp reduced MF mirrorless for everyone else.
That keeps the XF camera and lens line valid, and the pricey gear for heavy hitters, and studio based photographers, willing to pay a big premium. Simple!
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Hi,
Some like them, some don't. There are definite advantages to EVF:
- No vibration from mirror - with an SLR you need to lock up mirror for optimal sharpness
- Easy to focus exactly with magnified live view
- Good viewing in dark places
- What you see is what you get - in some cases
EVF-s have been around for some years, SLR has been around like 80 years.
Best regards
Erik
Can't get used to them either but I keep trying. I see the real advantage only when compared to a consumer DSLR with a tiny screen.
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Agree, I buy the non LS versions. I simply don't need one, as I never use Flash/Strobe.
Doug, you're getting a little bit blind-sided with all your studio customers making you think LS is a total necessity. It isn't for a lot of photographers. I'd go so far at to say more than half. Maybe even more than 75%.
For statistical significance in this discussion, I am a professional photographer and I use my Phase One XF with leaf shutter lenses primarily for the benefit of using flash at sync speeds up to 1/1600s. As Doug said, it is transformative.
Shooting professionally in this manner yields images that are otherwise unattainable by reasonable means. For that, I LOVE the LS lenses and wouldn't consider buying anything but them.
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Hi,
Prices here:
| GFX-S | 55 996 |
| X1D | 78 300 |
| H5X body - no sensor | 57 900 |
| H6D-50c | 223 296 |
| H6D 100C | 281 796 |
| P1 IQ1 50MP back | 161 400 |
| P1 XF IQ1 50MP | 208 900 |
| P1 XF IQ3 100MP | 370 405 |
These prices are in Swedish kronor (SEK), US prices are typically a tenth in USD. So you get 3 GFX or 2 X1D for the price of a P1 back. Note that there is a large premium for the back. We have a dealer (Goecker) here in Scandinavia who is selling all three systems and has a price list.
Best regards
Erik
I think it will be released earlier than that. Early 2018. Less than a year for sure.
There's an obvious answer here: Phase release a crop MF 100mp Mirrorless, like Fuji/Hassy, with its own narrow lens range plus an adapter for the existing Phase lenses. They keep the XF for the 150Mp full MF chip that's coming too. So: you have the big headline ultra Mp chip on the XF, and a cheaper 100Mp reduced MF mirrorless for everyone else.
That keeps the XF camera and lens line valid, and the pricey gear for heavy hitters, and studio based photographers, willing to pay a big premium. Simple!
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For statistical significance in this discussion, I am a professional photographer and I use my Phase One XF with leaf shutter lenses primarily for the benefit of using flash at sync speeds up to 1/1600s. As Doug said, it is transformative.
Shooting professionally in this manner yields images that are otherwise unattainable by reasonable means. For that, I LOVE the LS lenses and wouldn't consider buying anything but them.
Fair enough and good to hear. I think the XF body does appeal more to studio based photographers, whereas the IQ backs themselves are of course a separate product with much wider appeal. Most of the landscape photographers on this landscape site using the IQ backs are not of course using strobe in their work. Or an XF. Phase One need to give them a camera for their needs, and keep the XF for everyone else.
To the wider point - yes it is great that a 1/1600 sync opens some new doors creatively. But don't you think so many new doors are opening technologically in different areas, that it's really exciting?! You can basically shoot 8x10" quality from the street with AF now if you want. The IQ3100 allows you to freeze action even on overcast days, with shutter speeds around 1/1600 in sunlight. Try that with a copal shutter?! Plus ES has arrived for absolute truly vibration free capture of still life's. Auto focus stacking too. never thought I'd use, that, but, wow, it really works well!
Its exciting times. Can't wait for the mirrorless advances to come to XF myself: EVF with 100% magnified movable focus, on chip AF points across 75% of the frame, etc. The Fuji GFX has raised the bar on MF Focus system, and it's really hard to accept old single central point focus anymore, especially on a camera system costing 8x the price of the GFX.
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I'm a 3 day owner of the Hasselblad X1D with the XCD 45.
It's a beauty and the quality of the files looks impressive.
It's my first MF (though cropped as someone says) and so would somebody enlighten me on the advantages of the leaf shutter? which benefits from it? how to exploit it in my daily photography? is the leaf shutter pros only clear when using a flash?
thanks for your thoughts
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Clearly, with the announcement of the A9, we are seeing the arrival of true 'global shutter' sensor technology. This is great, and should be welcomed by all. What did this mean for Phase and MF shooters?
Obviously the next iteration of MF sensors will have some kind of implementation of this. It is of course harder to have the high speed shutter/flush on a big sensor than a smaller one, but still... it's coming.
Everyone expects the next generation to be around 100Mp in cropped, and 150mp in full MF. No disagreement with that. But if both of these come with an effective GS, then that means a big redesign at Phase is required. The will be no need for that giant, heavy mirror box, or for that matter a lens range formulated around that flange distance. Advantage Fuji, at this point.
First step will be an evf onto the XF. It's overdue already. With the mirror locked up out of the way, it could work with the GS/ES directly, but then you're carrying all that XF body bulk and weight around for nothing.
Clearly a new body is in order, and must be coming with the next generation sensors. Something based on the Mamiya 7 heritage that they own, maybe? Or the Alpa FPS body? Either would work, but there's no question Phase have to address this as a priority.
Any thoughts?
Details, the devil is in the details:
1. Global shutters are not new.
2. Global shutters are not used as much as before but they are becoming more common on video cameras. It's easier to implement a global shutter on a CCD.
3. Both the reviewers and Sony's A9 documentation say it does not have a global shutter.
4. The A9 does not have global shutter, what is has is a high bandiwth sensor (is all over the place from Sony and youtubers). The fact that you have a technology on a sensor does not imply that it will be present on the other. It's not obvious in any shape of form. In particular, since it's not a global shutter the question will be: Will the sensors be stacket as Sony call them? will they have enought bandwith to produce a digital exposure with almost no rolling-shutter?
Some day, maybe soon, we will have the technologies in MF but we can't derive certainties from the A9.
Best regards