Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Quentin on August 06, 2006, 04:27:37 am
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I have posted a sample image from my Mamiya ZD here on pbase
http://www.pbase.com/image/64654543/original (http://www.pbase.com/image/64654543/original)
I used Lightroom to decode the file. In fact, since I first processed this image, I am inclined to think that Silkypix does the better job, but I like Lightroom's workflow.
Some slight processing in PS - a touch of sharpening and some NR on the sky.
Quentin
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Thanks for that Quentin, actual 'real' images from the ZD are a rarity. It certainly looks very impressive to me, I am no expert on medium format digital but the detail in your shot is incredible. The detail also seems very uniform from edge to edge which is more evidence of the quality of mamiya optics.
You mention that you applied some noise reduction to the sky, are noise levels high even though you are shooting at iso80 ? or is it that you were pulling back highlight detail?
The dynamic range seems very good too, you seem to have held the detail on the painted white metal of the bridge on the hull of the boats despite the strong lighting in the scene. (on my D2x i would be double exposing to maintain those white highlights).
Aaron.
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Hi Aaron,
I always run a little NR on the sky, as its an area of uniform colour where even slight noise can show up, and there was a hint of noise (nothing you'd worry about).
The 80mm is a very sharp lens. Dynamic range seems very good - it was exteme in this shot but the camera seems to have coped well. Overall I'm pretty happy
Quentin
Thanks for that Quentin, actual 'real' images from the ZD are a rarity. It certainly looks very impressive to me, I am no expert on medium format digital but the detail in your shot is incredible. The detail also seems very uniform from edge to edge which is more evidence of the quality of mamiya optics.
You mention that you applied some noise reduction to the sky, are noise levels high even though you are shooting at iso80 ? or is it that you were pulling back highlight detail?
The dynamic range seems very good too, you seem to have held the detail on the painted white metal of the bridge on the hull of the boats despite the strong lighting in the scene. (on my D2x i would be double exposing to maintain those white highlights).
Aaron.
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Quentin,
That's very impressive. I've just been pixel-peeping some comparison shots between my faithful Canon 10D and my new 5D, so it was quite an experience to view your shot, and zoom in (on my browser), and in, and in, and in, ..., and keep seeing more and more detail.
Very nice.
Eric
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I hear that the ZD (or some 22mp product - the back perhaps?) is being launched in the US at Photokina, so I guess there will be more samples and review after that. Until the recent rave review in Professional Photographer, UK version, recently, the ZD had hardly caused a ripple of interest on this side of the pond. I purchased before I read the review.
Quentin
Quentin,
That's very impressive. I've just been pixel-peeping some comparison shots between my faithful Canon 10D and my new 5D, so it was quite an experience to view your shot, and zoom in (on my browser), and in, and in, and in, ..., and keep seeing more and more detail.
Very nice.
Eric
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I really don't know why Mamiya is keeping the ZD in a very low profile. Yes Canon will probably go up to 22 megpix, but they are very different 22 megpix. We are comparing 35mm space to 6x4.5 space for the 22 megpix. 22 megpix camera will be good for 99% of the photographers, just how big do you want to print the image? or need to print. I have both the Canon 1DsMkII and the P45 and I do used the Canon about 85% of the time for my work. The P45 is great for fine art photographers or very large print out, it does have great details. The Mamiya ZD would be a great step-up cameras for those wanting a MF back.
When I look at the ZD sample it looks great, with great details. In fact, it look like the P25 I used to have. Wait a minute, it is not true, my P25 has a magenta color shift at the right side.
I hear that the ZD (or some 22mp product - the back perhaps?) is being launched in the US at Photokina, so I guess there will be more samples and review after that. Until the recent rave review in Professional Photographer, UK version, recently, the ZD had hardly caused a ripple of interest on this side of the pond. I purchased before I read the review.
Quentin
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I really don't know why Mamiya is keeping the ZD in a very low profile. Yes Canon will probably go up to 22 megpix, but they are very different 22 megpix. We are comparing 35mm space to 6x4.5 space for the 22 megpix. 22 megpix camera will be good for 99% of the photographers, just how big do you want to print the image? or need to print. I have both the Canon 1DsMkII and the P45 and I do used the Canon about 85% of the time for my work. The P45 is great for fine art photographers or very large print out, it does have great details. The Mamiya ZD would be a great step-up cameras for those wanting a MF back.
When I look at the ZD sample it looks great, with great details. In fact, it look like the P25 I used to have. Wait a minute, it is not true, my P25 has a magenta color shift at the right side.
Hi
The reason I bought the ZD was because it had the same chip as the Aptus 22. As for the price it sits in the middle between 35mm D and MFD backs. At 6000.00 pounds with a lens that is a very good price. When you shoot the ZD at iso 50 the file quality is amazing and could be even better with 3rd party raw processors.
Thanks Denis
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I hear that the ZD (or some 22mp product - the back perhaps?) is being launched in the US at Photokina, so I guess there will be more samples and review after that. Until the recent rave review in Professional Photographer, UK version, recently, the ZD had hardly caused a ripple of interest on this side of the pond. I purchased before I read the review.
Quentin
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Quentin,
Long time since we 'spoke' online - thanks for posting a sample I can trust (and relate to) ... :-)
I'd be very interested in hearing how you get on with the ZD as I've been sitting on the fence myself waiting to see how this camera performs. I still have my 645AFD/Kodak 645M combo and I've been waiting to see how this might compare to the ZD - I would expect the new camera to be superior if for no other reason than it's a new generation of sensor and software. I know you had a lot of success with the Kodak 14nx which has many similar image characteristics to the 645M; how would you compare the look of the ZD images to those?
So far there's been scant feedback or information anywhere other than the bs 'reviews' which surprised me really.
Would there be any chance of you sending me a raw file to compare? I'd be interested to know how much post processing is needed for most images. I've been shooting DSLR with D2X's which produce great images straight from raw without much post processing. (cf. DCF files through DCS Photo Desk with Kodak looks).
Btw, did Robert White allude to how long they might be selling at the reduced price/kit?
Regards
Graham
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Very impressive sample indeed. No moire whatsoever, and a very high level of sharpness!
I would love to see how it handles moss and distant leaves, but it appears very promising indeed.
Considering how high def backs like the P45 still display painterly effects on some subjects with their native raw converter, the gap in resolution might actually be pretty small. I would be very interesting to see a rigorous comparison between the two.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Graham,
To take price first, Robert White first dropped the price (pre-VAT) to 6,500, then to 5,995 on the basis of a "summer clearance" (which could mean anything). If I was to speculate (and be a bit cynical), I'd say they might be trying to sell some stock before an anticipated announcement of a Canion 1Ds III with 20+mp that might hit sales later in the year. Thats just my guess of course
They had several to chose from, and I wanted to make sure I had a late serial number model, as the earlier ones had back focusing issues (there is a seperate thread about this here somewhere).
The file quality is superior at the pixel level to the Kodak 14nx. There are fewer artifacts / xmas tree lights and no side-to-side colour shifts I can detect. I am finally beginning to understand the PhotoStation raw software, and its not bad, but you can use Lightroom or Silkyix which both support the ZD.
the file I posted has had some post processing, but not much. Specifically some colour correction, NR on sky and a touch of sharpening.
Happy to send you a raw file to play with if you want one.
Its a surprisingly nice camera to use. After a little while it feels like a regular dslr. I parrticularly appreciate the easy mirror-up function after using the workaround with the Kodak.
Quentin
Quentin,
Long time since we 'spoke' online - thanks for posting a sample I can trust (and relate to) ... :-)
I'd be very interested in hearing how you get on with the ZD as I've been sitting on the fence myself waiting to see how this camera performs. I still have my 645AFD/Kodak 645M combo and I've been waiting to see how this might compare to the ZD - I would expect the new camera to be superior if for no other reason than it's a new generation of sensor and software. I know you had a lot of success with the Kodak 14nx which has many similar image characteristics to the 645M; how would you compare the look of the ZD images to those?
So far there's been scant feedback or information anywhere other than the bs 'reviews' which surprised me really.
Would there be any chance of you sending me a raw file to compare? I'd be interested to know how much post processing is needed for most images. I've been shooting DSLR with D2X's which produce great images straight from raw without much post processing. (cf. DCF files through DCS Photo Desk with Kodak looks).
Btw, did Robert White allude to how long they might be selling at the reduced price/kit?
Regards
Graham
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Thanks for posting the sample, Quentin!
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I have added a sample macro shot here
http://www.pbase.com/dougas_freer/image/65081388 (http://www.pbase.com/dougas_freer/image/65081388)
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I like the shot with the river in it . Color looks close to that of the Leaf . I really hope that the buyers of Mamiya stick with the ZD as it looks promising . I would like to see some shots at iso 50-100 done at f/8 and around 6 seconds so I can see how this Zd handles noise in the shadow areas . I bet it is about the same as the Aptus in this area . Got any shots like that Quentin ?
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That food shot is amazing and seals it for me that this is an exceptionally capable camera. Thanks for sharing!
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I hear that the ZD (or some 22mp product - the back perhaps?) is being launched in the US at Photokina, so I guess there will be more samples and review after that. Until the recent rave review in Professional Photographer, UK version, recently, the ZD had hardly caused a ripple of interest on this side of the pond. I purchased before I read the review.
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=72707\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
I have noticed that Mamiya ebay listings are down to 70-80 in the past few weeks. It used to be 95-120. This week a 55-110 zoom went for $540.00 USD what a deal for glass of this quality. If they launch the ZD back they should price it at 4000 pounds. We shall see it is only a month to go.
Denis
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Great to see some nice samples. I can't wait to get my hands on this camera. I have been shooting fashion and beauty for 18 years, and have just moved back to my home town, and made the change over to a high end portrait studio.
I was used to shooting Hassy or Mamiya with a phase one back. It was always rented, so dropping 30-40 k for a portrait studio seemed like overkill, so I went with a dslr set up. I just hate it. I have been hoping for a Pentax 6x7 digital, but this looks like it will do nicely. The price seems to be in line too.
Waiting to see one here in the states soon, I hope.
Thanks again for the samples.
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That food shot is amazing and seals it for me that this is an exceptionally capable camera. Thanks for sharing!
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paul, i can only recommend not to judge any DSLR/digital back by a web jpeg...as much as i like the food macro shot, you could shoot the same scene with a digital rebel and the 100macro and you would not see the difference on the web...in print or raw the difference will be very obvious, but not as a jpeg...
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good to see someone happy with this zd camera.. i really think this kind of quality is more than enough for many users..and that is good.
I would be very interested to see the quality of a 40x30 inch (100x75cm) print from one of these cameras as that is what I like to do with my personal work.
But whilst there are no good wide shift lenses for the mamiya (or other mf cameras) what is now needed is this quality and price but in a seperate mf d.back so that it can be also used on shift cameras for more architectural work as well as then putting it the most compact medium format slr you can find.
this set up won't be as 'walk around' as the zd, whcih is a real shame, but at least you will get this digital quality on two camera set-ups.
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Just curious but did Mamiya get the ZD back shipped before shuttering for the transition or whatever limbo they're currently in? Any pre-Photokina word on whether Mamiya will show up?
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By way of a brief follow-up, I took the ZD to Kefalonia and (as a guest) took some shots of a friend's wedding I was attending there at 400 ISO in low light. Eeek, I hear you say, but the files were very useable with a touch of judicious noise reduction, compliments of Neat Image. The problem areas are in the shadows. Mid-tones and highlights were reasonable. No samples, sorry, as this was a strictly prvate function. You'll just have to take my word for it
Something else I have noticed and appreciate, coming from a Kodak dslr, is the good dynamic range and ability to recover overexposed images. There is quite a lot of headroom to recover blown highlights, and its worthwhile trusting the blown hightlight warning on the rear LCD and not the appearance of overexposure from the preview image. Exposing to the right is a good idea with the ZD as it was and is with the Kodak dslrs
Quentin
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The new review of the ZD-
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ZD_Second.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/Mamiya_ZD_Second.shtml)
is very much in line with my own findings, reported here and elswhere. I would only add that Mamiya Digital Photostudio is OK for capturing images tethered, or downloading them from the camera to a computer without a card reader, but my preference is Silkypix, appropiately set up. I really rate SilkyPix for its ease of use and quality of its output, particularly for quick results. And I would mention I don't use the 55-110 zoom. It seems to have done a decent enough job for the review, but a better choice would be one of the primes, particlarly the very sharp 80mm F2.8 standard lens.
Quentin
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hi Quinton. which lenses have you got for the ZD? Do you find that you can stop down a lot, say f16/22 and still have acceptable quality?
thanks Ivan
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I have posted a sample image from my Mamiya ZD here on pbase
http://www.pbase.com/image/64654543/original (http://www.pbase.com/image/64654543/original)
I used Lightroom to decode the file. In fact, since I first processed this image, I am inclined to think that Silkypix does the better job, but I like Lightroom's workflow.
Some slight processing in PS - a touch of sharpening and some NR on the sky.
Quentin
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Thanks for posting the image. Wow, detail is amazing and image very "film like" I to ownder why this camera wasnt promoted a LOT more.
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Wow, detail is amazing and image very "film like"
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Looking at the sample again, I have to agree - no "digital- ness" - the colors especially look "analogue". I am impressed. If anything this shows that MF digital has a necessary place until smaller format DSLRs reach the same image quality.
Bernie
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Ivan and all,
The lenses I currently have are the 80mm F/2.8, a very sharp lens as most "standard" lenese are, the 35mm wide angle, and a non-AF old 210 "N" F/4 lens. I also have the 120mm F/4 macro, a really excellent lens, probably the best macro lens I have ever used. No AF, unfortunately.
I am looking at buying a Harblei super rotator 45mm lens for architecture. Now, Hartblei have just announced a Zeiss version here: http://www.hartblei.de/english.html (http://www.hartblei.de/english.html) but Michael's review of the original version suggests it is good quality, so I question the need to spend what is likely to be a lot more on a Zeiss version.
As to colours, I agree, the ZD has great colour, but its helped by using Silkypix as a converter. You can get similar results with, say, lightroom, but it takes more work.
Quentin
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Thanks for posting the image. Wow, detail is amazing and image very "film like" I to ownder why this camera wasnt promoted a LOT more.
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It wasn't in NA since the ZD isn't distributed there.
It got a fair amount of coverage here in Japan, and Mamiya did also invest reasonnably in promoting it.
Regards,
Bernard
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And I would mention I don't use the 55-110 zoom.
Hi
You should it has become my favourite lens and I have used this lens on advertising shoots. The quality is amazing. I use it hand held with the ZD and I rarely use the Canon 5D these days except for the higher iso. I also use the 150 3.5 mm which is super sharp. I have compared this 150 to the Hasselblad 150 ( H series). I think the Mamiya has the slight edge, not a surprise as you are really comparing Mamiya to Fugi.
Thanks Denis
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And I would mention I don't use the 55-110 zoom.
Hi
You should it has become my favourite lens and I have used this lens on advertising shoots. The quality is amazing. I use it hand held with the ZD and I rarely use the Canon 5D these days except for the higher iso. I also use the 150 3.5 mm which is super sharp. I have compared this 150 to the Hasselblad 150 ( H series). I think the Mamiya has the slight edge, not a surprise as you are really comparing Mamiya to Fugi.
Thanks Denis
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I used the ZD for 2 jobs last week, (weblink with full res images below) I had it for 7 days in all, like all pieces of equipment, there is a learning curve with this camera. After all is said and done, I really liked it, I would have liked it even MORE if they released it when they said they would, it's results are not as great as a 22MP back from Sinar (eMotion22), which I tested earlier this year, but, looking at the broader picture of handling/feel, weight, auto focus lenses and image quality overall (at 100ASA or less) it's a competent camera if you're not rushed! Yes, the buffer is a problem, yes, the screen is small and crappy, but it's so easy to shoot with, I did most of my shooting handheld - that's how I shoot film, so, that's how I'll shoot digital, image quality does suffer, but then it suffers when shooting film too. So, here's a link to a few shots I took, and a link to full resolution 16-bit tiff files. I was particularly interested in how this camera handles 'green' something my cann seems to struggle with.
[a href=\"http://www.stoqq.com/zd]http://www.stoqq.com/zd[/url] webpage
http://www.stoqq.com/sinar-test/zd (http://www.stoqq.com/sinar-test/zd) < hires 16-bit images 125mb each.
If they do a version 'II' it will be awesome if they upgrade to 16-bits, increase the RAW buffer, provide a larger screen and less noise at anything above 100ASA
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Just curious but did Mamiya get the ZD back shipped before shuttering for the transition or whatever limbo they're currently in? Any pre-Photokina word on whether Mamiya will show up?
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Bob, I like you're stuff.
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By way of a brief follow-up, I took the ZD to Kefalonia and (as a guest) took some shots of a friend's wedding I was attending there at 400 ISO in low light. Eeek, I hear you say, but the files were very useable with a touch of judicious noise reduction, compliments of Neat Image. The problem areas are in the shadows. Mid-tones and highlights were reasonable. No samples, sorry, as this was a strictly prvate function. You'll just have to take my word for it
Something else I have noticed and appreciate, coming from a Kodak dslr, is the good dynamic range and ability to recover overexposed images. There is quite a lot of headroom to recover blown highlights, and its worthwhile trusting the blown hightlight warning on the rear LCD and not the appearance of overexposure from the preview image. Exposing to the right is a good idea with the ZD as it was and is with the Kodak dslrs
Quentin
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Hi
I am thinking of getting Neat Image for the ZD and was wondering what your results have been with this program. I normally shoot at iso 50-100 and noise is not an issue. I also have not tried longer exposures with this camera. The ZD sort of reminds me of what the Valeo 22 was like 3 years ago. Anyways what are your thoughts on Neat Image.
Thanks Denis
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I looked at Neat Image a while back, as a reviewer. This is a best-of-breed and highly flexible package, but what you get out of it depends heavily on how familiar you are with its parameters.
I got feedback (writein) from several users at the time (after the review !) who confirmed that they used NeatImage regularly and found it very useful. As the positive feedback came after the review, I am confident that it was genuine.
At the time NeatImage responded quickly, and provided some tech support speedily by email.
I therefore think it's a fairly safe way to spend your money, costing about as much as a polarizer.
Photoshop itself also has a new smart noise reduction built into CS2, and you should give that a try as well. There are also some competitors to NeatImage, most notably NoiseNinja - most have demos and you might profit by doing your own testing -
My own approach has been to keep the noise globally, and selectively retouch areas which I need improved, or filter the blue channel brutally - but then I only own 35mm digital.
Edmund
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Neat can be useful, but to be honest, as I rarely shoot higher than ISO 64 and decode raw files with Silkypix, I don't often have a need to use any NR.
Quentin
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Neat can be useful, but to be honest, as I rarely shoot higher than ISO 64 and decode raw files with Silkypix, I don't often have a need to use any NR.
Quentin
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Silkypix does indeed deliver Silky smooth conversions. I have found that to give somewhat of a blotchy look with small details like distant leaves in landscape shots, but there is indeed zero noise to be found.
Raw Developper offers more control on that.
If you use Raw Developpor and decide to keep the max amount of detail, then there will be some noise left in the images even at ISO50.
Per my first tests, it doesn't show much in print at A2 size, but applying some noise reduction with Neat Image or Noise Ninja for the skies etc... could be needed in some cases. The good thing then is that you can overlay the 2 images and use masks to selectively control where NR is needed and where it hurts detail.
Doing a double conversion with differnt NR settings in Raw Developper could achieve the same thing and might be faster.
Regards,
Bernard
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Hi
I am thinking of getting Neat Image for the ZD and was wondering what your results have been with this program. I normally shoot at iso 50-100 and noise is not an issue. I also have not tried longer exposures with this camera. The ZD sort of reminds me of what the Valeo 22 was like 3 years ago. Anyways what are your thoughts on Neat Image.
Thanks Denis
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I've used Neat Image a lot over the last 4 years or so. Mostly used it with noisier
cameras like the D100 and occasionally some point and shoots. Since I got a D2X,
I haven't used it as much. With a little experimentation setting the parameters you can get
remarkable results. I found with Neat Image that it's possible to remove so much
noise that the image looks a little plasticy. But you'll quickly find the right amount
of NR for your taste.
I haven't used the ZD, but i'll bet its noise characteristics are more forgiving
than a D100, and easier to clean up with Neat. I've also used Noise Ninja, which
i like as well. I think the Neat Image interface is a little easier to grasp and
remember if you're only using it casually. Both products are excellent IMHO.
I prefer the photoshop plug-in rather than the standalone version.
Tony
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how is the ZD for long exposures ?
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how is the ZD for long exposures ?
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Hi
I did a test in as store room today at iso 50 (1/2, 1 & 2 sec) and it was pretty clean. The file was developed in Raw Processor. I will have to test it further and will try Neat Image soon.
Thanks Denis