Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: LesPalenik on March 15, 2017, 06:12:20 pm
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On the election day, the head of the Turkish Association of Red Meat Producers, Bulent Tunc, said that a 40 Holstein Friesian cattle was being sent back to the Netherlands.
Because, "The Dutch Holstein cows have become very common in our country. But this breed is starting to cause serious problems".
Turkey sends dutch cows back to the Netherlands (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4316788/Turkey-s-red-meat-association-sends-cows-Holland.html)
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Oh, the irony! 😄
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On the election day, the head of the Turkish Association of Red Meat Producers, Bulent Tunc, said that a 40 Holstein Friesian cattle was being sent back to the Netherlands.
Because, "The Dutch Holstein cows have become very common in our country. But this breed is starting to cause serious problems".
Turkey sends dutch cows back to the Netherlands (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4316788/Turkey-s-red-meat-association-sends-cows-Holland.html)
LOL.
It's their loss.
Cheers,
Bart
P.S. The real winners are today's voters, who turned out in record numbers (at a sofar unofficial 80.4 percent). It's a victory for democracy. There was even a shortage of voting forms in some polling stations, and people risked having to vote elsewhere or maybe come back after additional supplies arrived. Some voting boxes were so filled that the piles in the ballot box had to be compressed with improvised means to make a bit more room. The counting is taking longer than usual, due to the larger quantities and, because there were more (upto 28) parties on the voting forms, the forms are larger and more difficult to handle for manual counting.
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Oh, the irony! 😄
Even the Dutch cows can be stubborn ... ;)
Cheers,
Bart
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Oh, the irony! 😄
You mean that the head of the RED MEAT association wants to send back a bunch of DAIRY COWS? ::)
Anyway, in 2015 there were approximately 5.5 million Holsteins in Turkey, and another 900,000 Holstein cross-breeds. Holsteins were the highest producers (volume of milk per cow), and the native Turkish breeds were among the lowest producers. But Turkey has a dairy surplus, and a shortage of meat. Perhaps that's why the head of the association also indicated that he'd slaughter the cows and distribute their meat if they weren't accepted back.
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About the irony:
"...have become very common in our country. But this breed is starting to cause serious problems"
Replace the dots with Turks, and assume a Dutch is saying it ;)
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You mean that the head of the RED MEAT association wants to send back a bunch of DAIRY COWS? ::)
Anyway, in 2015 there were approximately 5.5 million Holsteins in Turkey, and another 900,000 Holstein cross-breeds. Holsteins were the highest producers (volume of milk per cow), and the native Turkish breeds were among the lowest producers. But Turkey has a dairy surplus, and a shortage of meat. Perhaps that's why the head of the association also indicated that he'd slaughter the cows and distribute their meat if they weren't accepted back.
Exactly! You would think, that instead of shuttling the cattle over a 2,000km distance, it would be more effective to kill the poor cows, make sausages and export those.
"See, this is what we do with sheep or cattle that create problems".
Also wondering whether that decision was made indeed by Turkish Red Meat association or by another body.
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About the irony:
Replace the dots with Turks, and assume a Dutch is saying it ;)
That's so far fetched. No Dutchman would ever say that. OK, maybe some East Friesian. But only if they do something bad to his cows.
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... No Dutchman would ever say that...
...many ordinary Dutch voters who have been hard hit by the government's austerity measures, and who feel the country has taken in too many refugees and migrants.
"The Netherlands is full," Wilders supporter Jack told CNN outside a polling station in Volendam on Wednesday. "If it were up to me I would have stopped all [Turkish people] at the border."[/quote]
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/15/europe/netherlands-dutch-elections/
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"...have become very common in our country. But this breed is starting to cause serious problems"
Replace the dots with Turks, and assume a Dutch is saying it ;)
Well, could be that some Dutch indeed said something like that and the Turkish head of Red Meat club liked and reused that phrase. Of course, purely subconsciously.
It wouldn't be the first time that a sentence or two were borrowed from someone else's speech.
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...many ordinary Dutch voters who have been hard hit by the government's austerity measures, and who feel the country has taken in too many refugees and migrants.
"The Netherlands is full," Wilders supporter Jack told CNN outside a polling station in Volendam on Wednesday. "If it were up to me I would have stopped all [Turkish people] at the border."[/quote]
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/15/europe/netherlands-dutch-elections/
The Netherlands is indeed full (and has been for a long time).
I recall one very hot Friday afternoon in summer 1974, as I was driving from Eindhoven to Germany, in an old VW bug, of course, without air condioning. The temperature was unbearably hot. So hot, that I decided to stop at the nearest town and cool down in a public swimming pool. I found one, bought the ticket, and carefully stepped into the pool. Very carefuly, because the pool was a standing room only. Hundreds of people standing through the entire swimming pool. You couldn't swim, you couldn't even walk.
And on that memorable day, after I got out from the pool and drove on, I made a decision to leave Europe.
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The Netherlands is indeed full (and has been for a long time).
I recall one very hot Friday afternoon in summer 1974, as I was driving from Eindhoven to Germany, in an old VW bug, of course, without air condioning. The temperature was unbearably hot. So hot, that I decided to stop at the nearest town and cool down in a public swimming pool. I found one, bought the ticket, and carefully stepped into the pool. Very carefuly, because the pool was a standing room only. Hundreds of people standing through the entire swimming pool. You couldn't swim, you couldn't even walk.
And on that memorable day, after I got out from the pool and drove on, I made a decision to leave Europe.
My father lived in Lauderdale Lakes and my sister in Boynton Beach that's not that far from Lauderdale-by-the-Sea where you now live. Plenty of space at the beaches there which are beautiful with great water except when the man-o-wars come floating in. America is getting more crowded. But there's still plenty of space if you want or need it. I lived all y life until three years ago in NYC. My wife and I looked into Florida, but she can't handle the hot weather. So we moved to farm area in central New Jersey. Now they're building more here and I don't like it. It's nice to leave the house and go by corn fields and horse farms. The new construction in making me sad.
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The color orange has long been associated with the Dutch, dating back to William of Orange who was the first king.
Turkish demonstrators are now cutting oranges and drinking their juice in protest of the Dutch government.
Turks squeeze oranges in anti-dutch protest (https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2017/03/14/turks-squeeze-oranges-drink-juice-in-anti-dutch-protest/)
It's a good move. The orange juice is much healthier than cow's milk.
Dangers of cow's milk (http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/dangers-of-cows-milk/)
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The color orange has long been associated with the Dutch, dating back to William of Orange who was the first king.
Turkish demonstrators are now cutting oranges and drinking their juice in protest of the Dutch government.
Turks squeeze oranges in anti-dutch protest (https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2017/03/14/turks-squeeze-oranges-drink-juice-in-anti-dutch-protest/)
It's a good move. The orange juice is much healthier than cow's milk.
Dangers of cow's milk (http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/dangers-of-cows-milk/)
And as a civil democratic country, unlike Turkey, we have allowed a demonstration march, requested by 3 Turkish organizations, for 'freedom of expression' (as a reaction to 'police violence') to take place tomorrow in Rotterdam between 17:00-19:00h.
Let's see if the demonstrators can keep it orderly this time around, and if there will be any surprise appearance attempts by uninvited Turkish government officials. Since the Turkish consul deliberately lied to the Mayor of Rotterdam last time, we will rely on our own secret service again to track those officials, just like they did last Saturday.
Cheers,
Bart
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So, Bart, let me get this straight: it is ok to stop a foreigner at the Dutch border and send them back, just because you do not like their government, but it is not at the American border?
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So, Bart, let me get this straight: it is ok to stop a foreigner at the Dutch border and send them back, just because you do not like their government, but it is not at the American border?
No, we do not have internal borders in the Schengen zone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area) in the European Union, so everybody who is there legally can freely travel.
In the case you are referring to there was a foreign, Turkish, minister that tried to enter Europe by flying into the Netherlands, while being requested by the Dutch authorities to not do that. He got his landing rights pulled, because he did not follow the rules and yet still tried to enter and cause public order issues without permission.
In fact, as the negotiations to do facilitate his visit were ongoing, the Turkish government started to threaten our government with economic and diplomatic sanctions via the media(!) if he would not be allowed to enter the country and stir up trouble that would cause public order issues.
Since our government cannot and will not negotiate under threat of sanctions, the request to facilitate his visit on that day was denied.
It may seem strange to some people looking at it from the outside, but we tend to play by the rules. Freedom of speech and assembly is one of those liberties for our citizens, as long as it doesn't result is public order issues or violates the law in other ways.
Cheers,
Bart
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Yeah, yeah, yeah...same difference.
The fact is you prevented two foreigners at your border from entering, because:
1. you do not like their government
2. their visit MIGHT have consequences you do not like (e.g., trampling a few tulips in a public square)
Besides, no Turkish diplomat/minister ever caused a terrorist act in Holland, nor murdered a single Dutch citizen.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah...same difference.
The fact is you prevented two foreigners at your border from entering, because:
Not really, one (foreign affairs) minister was denied entering the European Union (via a Dutch airfield) because he wouldn't cooperate to prevent public order disturbance and started to threaten our government with sanctions, via the media while negotiations were being conducted (which clearly showed ill intent), and another minister was allowed to enter the country from Germany, but she was not allowed to disrupt public order as a replacement of that Foreign affairs minister.
She actually was supposed to give a speech in an establishment close the border with Germany, a day or so before, but that got canceled by the proprietor of that establishment. She only got stopped by police after crossing the entire country from east to west, using another convoy with a lookalike stand-in to avoid early detection of where she was heading. Why the secrecy?
When her convoy ran into the sealed off region around the consulate, because a demonstration was going on there, the convoy got stuck in a back alley. When the consul stopped answering the Mayor's phone calls, when he tried inquiring what was happening (despite the assurances earlier that day that nobody was expected to come), she then didn't follow the request to leave on her own (with her 12 potentially armed bodyguards), locking herself in the armoured car for several hours, still no answers from the consul, she was finally escorted back to the German border.
The apparently deliberate attempts to disrupt public order in another country were met with a free ride back to where she came from, after being declared an unwelcome alien. Things could have gotten much more ugly.
Besides, no Turkish diplomat/minister ever caused a terrorist act in Holland, nor murdered a single Dutch citizen.
Not to my knowledge, but there have been incidents with e.g. a drunken Russian diplomat (Dmitri Borodin) suspected of child molestation incidents (bystanders called the police) and his drunken wife causing a collision earlier that day, luckily only with material damage to someone else's car, crying daughters, no lethal human casualties. He was silently replaced by another diplomat, without deliberate escalations by a foreign power.
Cheers,
Bart
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Not really, one (foreign affairs) minister was denied entering the European Union (via a Dutch airfield) because he wouldn't cooperate to prevent public order disturbance and started to threaten our government with sanctions, via the media while negotiations were being conducted (which clearly showed ill intent), and another minister was allowed to enter the country from Germany, but she was not allowed to disrupt public order as a replacement of that Foreign affairs minister.
She actually was supposed to give a speech in an establishment close the border with Germany, a day or so before, but that got canceled by the proprietor of that establishment. She only got stopped by police after crossing the entire country from east to west, using another convoy with a lookalike stand-in to avoid early detection of where she was heading. Why the secrecy?
When her convoy ran into the sealed off region around the consulate, because a demonstration was going on there, the convoy got stuck in a back alley. When the consul stopped answering the Mayor's phone calls, when he tried inquiring what was happening (despite the assurances earlier that day that nobody was expected to come), she then didn't follow the request to leave on her own (with her 12 potentially armed bodyguards), locking herself in the armoured car for several hours, still no answers from the consul, she was finally escorted back to the German border.
The apparently deliberate attempts to disrupt public order in another country were met with a free ride back to where she came from, after being declared an unwelcome alien. Things could have gotten much more ugly.
Not to my knowledge, but there have been incidents with e.g. a drunken Russian diplomat (Dmitri Borodin) suspected of child molestation incidents (bystanders called the police) and his drunken wife causing a collision earlier that day, luckily only with material damage to someone else's car, crying daughters, no lethal human casualties. He was silently replaced by another diplomat, without deliberate escalations by a foreign power.
Cheers,
Bart
Slobodan showed your true colors. When it comes to your country's security, you strap your revolver on. But when it comes to America's security, you'd have us bend over and take it in the butt. Give me a break. You're just anti-American hypocrite.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah...same difference.
The fact is you prevented two foreigners at your border from entering, because:
1. you do not like their government
2. their visit MIGHT have consequences you do not like (e.g., trampling a few tulips in a public square)
Besides, no Turkish diplomat/minister ever caused a terrorist act in Holland, nor murdered a single Dutch citizen.
Nope:
1: They didn't follow the rules, same situation as for the US, no Visa or ESTA and you can't even get on the plane, let alone in the country. Don't see any problem.
2: Our souls do not get harmed by a few trampled tulips, but fighting and damage (destruction) of public and private property was likely and needed to be prevented. Remember Ferguson in the US?
3: A lot of recent actions by the Turkish government are unprecedented, and as Alan said in the Trump II thread: "you don't lock your door after you're burgled".
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Slobodan showed your true colors. When it comes to your country's security, you strap your revolver on. But when it comes to America's security, you'd have us bend over and take it in the butt. Give me a break. You're just anti-American hypocrite.
Alan, that's just populist bullshit to find a scapegoat (very similar to what Erdogan and the Turkish government are doing at the moment). Show me one post where I (or even the collective we) denied the US (or Trump) the right to control their borders. It's the way in which he does it that's under scrutiny. I am not anti-American. I lived there for 3 years, worked my whole career for an American company and my youngest daughter is a US citizen. I just don't like some of the things the POTUS is doing at the moment but calling that hypocrite and anti-American is over the top and uncalled for.
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Nope:
1: They didn't follow the rules, same situation as for the US, no Visa or ESTA and you can't even get on the plane, let alone in the country. Don't see any problem.
2: Our souls do not get harmed by a few trampled tulips, but fighting and damage (destruction) of public and private property was likely and needed to be prevented. Remember Ferguson in the US?
3: A lot of recent actions by the Turkish government are unprecedented, and as Alan said in the Trump II thread: "you don't lock your door after you're burgled".
Similar to what America wants to do. We don't tell you not to take measures to protect your country's interest and security. You'd be foolish not too. So why don't you give us the same measure of support? Instead, all we get from Europeans is a knee-jerk anti-American response that supports viewpoints that go against American interests. And please don't tell us we're foolish. You are not us. We don't tell you what to do? You don't see the threats the same way we don't see the threats you see from the Turks. How about if we each give the other the benefit of the doubt and respect that we're different and see and experience things differently? After all, 9-11 happened in America.
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Similar to what America wants to do. We don't tell you not to take measures to protect your country's interest and security. You'd be foolish not too. So why don't you give us the same measure of support? Instead, all we get from Europeans is a knee-jerk anti-American response that supports viewpoints that go against American interests. And please don't tell us we're foolish. You are not us. We don't tell you what to do? You don't see the threats the same way we don't see the threats you see from the Turks. How about if we each give the other the benefit of the doubt and respect that we're different and see and experience things differently? After all, 9-11 happened in America.
Alan, you didn't get my point. Point me to one post where I deny the US the right to do the same. I'm all for clear vetting and not letting the bad guys in, but for petesake then make rules that have that effect and not some phony, discriminatory symbolism to appease his voters but doesn't result in any increase in security because the real bad guys are still unaffected by the new EO.
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Alan, that's just populist bullshit to find a scapegoat (very similar to what Erdogan and the Turkish government are doing at the moment). Show me one post where I (or even the collective we) denied the US (or Trump) the right to control their borders. It's the way in which he does it that's under scrutiny. I am not anti-American. I lived there for 3 years, worked my whole career for an American company and my youngest daughter is a US citizen. I just don't like some of the things the POTUS is doing at the moment but calling that hypocrite and anti-American is over the top and uncalled for.
Pieter: I was addressing Slobodan's responses to Bart not you. In any case, there is an awful lot of knee-jerk anti-Americanism here by non-Americans. It gets tiring.
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Pieter: I was addressing Slobodan's responses to Bart not you. In any case, there is an awful lot of knee-jerk anti-Americanism here by non-Americans. It gets tiring.
Well, the way you're describing it is that the whole liberal side of Americans is knee-jerking right along with the non-Americans. So I think you're mistaking anti-Trump sentiments for anti-Americanism.
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Alan, you didn't get my point. Point me to one post where I deny the US the right to do the same. I'm all for clear vetting and not letting the bad guys in, but for petesake then make rules that have that effect and not some phony, discriminatory symbolism to appease his voters but doesn't result in any increase in security because the real bad guys are still unaffected by the new EO.
Europeans always butt into how we do things. We don't butt in to how you do things. If you want to keep Turks out, whatever the reason, well that's your business. If we want to keep people from Yemen, Libyan, the Sudan and others out, for whatever the reasons, what business is it of yours? Why do you always feel you need to be involved? Maybe I should take it as a compliment that America is so important that everyone wants to say something.
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Well, the way you're describing it is that the whole liberal side of Americans is knee-jerking right along with the non-Americans. So I think you're mistaking anti-Trump sentiments for anti-Americanism.
Of course they're political debates in America. We're always debating. But why do you feel that it's necessary for you to join one side or the other? It's none of your business.
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...you're mistaking anti-Trump sentiments for anti-Americanism.
Isn't that one and the same thing? Isn't Trump the stereotypical American? Loud, boisterous, fat, rich, arrogant, obnoxious, a braggart, jerk, thinking he can buy everything with money, even mail-order brides? You hate Trump, you hate Americans. ;)
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It's none of your business.
I just explained in one of the posts above why it is my business and secondly this is an international forum where free speech is encouraged (as long as it is civil).
I would counter your claim that it's none of your business to tell me where I can and cannot exercise my freedom of speech.
Maybe you can start you're own thread called "Trump III, only for US citizens". I'll promise to keep out of that one :P, not because I have to, but because I would simply honour your request at my own will.
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Isn't that one and the same thing? Isn't Trump the stereotypical American? Loud, boisterous, fat, rich, arrogant, obnoxious, a braggart, jerk, thinking he can buy everything with money, even mail-order brides? You hate Trump, you hate Americans. ;)
That's too simple Slobodan, you can't get off the hook that easy. If I remember correctly Alan introduced the term "trump-Hater". I don't hate Trump, I don't hate Americans, but I'm still very critical of some of the measures he is taking, but I think that's something different.
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...But why do you feel that it's necessary for you to join one side or the other? It's none of your business.
Since we are meddling in every single country under the sun (and moon) affairs, it is only fair that they care about our business too ;)
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And as a civil democratic country, unlike Turkey, we have allowed a demonstration march, requested by 3 Turkish organizations, for 'freedom of expression' (as a reaction to 'police violence') to take place tomorrow in Rotterdam between 17:00-19:00h.
Well, according to local news sources,
"the Pro-Turkish demonstration in Rotterdam, planned for this Friday, has been retracted by the organizers.
A spokesperson for the city confirmed that. Earlier this day, Mayor Aboutaleb had agreed with the request for the protest march. The demonstration was requested by 3 Turkish organizations who want to plea for the right of free speech of Turks in the Netherlands.
The organization claims that they cannot vouch for the safety of the participants. That page has now been removed from Facebook. According to the website DutchTurks.nl various Turk-Dutch organizations have supposedly announced that they would not participate in the demonstration."
EDIT after new information: The reason for canceling might have to do with tensions between different factions of Turkish oriented Dutch citizens. That's the very reason that the previous weekend police had to take the security measures to avoid confrontations between rivaling groups. There are groups that are Pro Erdogan, and they a.o. snitch on other groups and label them as Gülen supporters, which results in arrests in Turkey of family members because Erdogan claims that Gülen was responsible for the failed coup. Attempts by the Mayor to get the groups around one table to discuss the issues and reduce tension have failed sofar, for months already.
EDIT: Apparently the Mayor succeeded today in getting different factions around the table, although no transcripts or list of participant's names will be published, to protect the participants again retaliatory actions.
A bit of a strange development, but of course nobody is obliged to protest, and nobody wants to escalate things further (except Turkey).
Cheers,
Bart
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I just explained in one of the posts above why it is my business and secondly this is an international forum where free speech is encouraged (as long as it is civil).
I would counter your claim that it's none of your business to tell me where I can and cannot exercise my freedom of speech.
Maybe you can start you're own thread called "Trump III, only for US citizens". I'll promise to keep out of that one :P, not because I have to, but because I would simply honour your request at my own will.
I'm not questioning your right of free speech. I'm asking why everything you say about America is so negative? Since you lived here for 3 years, and worked for an American company for your whole career, and your daughter is an American citizen, I would think you'd have a more pro-America attitude, or at least more balanced. Maybe Slobodan is right. We're always butting into the affairs of the world. My new recommendation is we should pull back into Fortress America as I thought Trump wanted and do as George Washington admonished us to stay out of foreign entanglements- like NATO, SEATO, ANZUS, etc. With savings from less military spending, we could pay for national health care and help those people in the rust belt. . All the while we could start to pay off our national debt and get a balanced budget.
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I'm not questioning your right of free speech. I'm asking why everything you say about America is so negative? Since you lived here for 3 years, and worked for an American company for your whole career, and your daughter is an American citizen, I would think you'd have a more pro-America attitude, or at least more balanced. Maybe Slobodan is right. We're always butting into the affairs of the world. My new recommendation is we should pull back into Fortress America as I thought Trump wanted and do as George Washington admonished us to stay out of foreign entanglements- like NATO, SEATO, ANZUS, etc. With savings from less military spending, we could pay for national health care and help those people in the rust belt. . All the while we could start to pay off our national debt and get a balanced budget.
Alan, First you didn't ask me why what I say is negative, you just said it was none of my business (which is BS and questioning my right to free speech). You can't win that argument so now I'm suddenly anti or negative about America, but point me to one post where I'm negative to America as a whole. You can't! I'm seriously critical of Trump's actions and I don't agree with some of the statements you make about his policies. But that's something entirely different then being anti-American.
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With 99.9% of the votes counted, 80.4% of eligible voters did vote, with almost 29.000 invalid votes and almost 15.000 blank votes.
The number of returned cows is unknown.
Cheers,
Bart
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They had the draw for the Europa League quarter finals today and it would have been very interesting had Ajax (Dutch) and Besiktas (Turkish) been paired up. Alas, it wasn't to be and Ajax will play the German club Schalke. Of course if both Ajax and Besiktas win, they could be drawn against one another later on in the competition. I'm sure there would be a lot of political interest in such a match!!!
Alan (an Ajax fan since the days of Johan Cruyff)
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They had the draw for the Europa League quarter finals today and it would have been very interesting had Ajax (Dutch) and Besiktas (Turkish) been paired up. Alas, it wasn't to be and Ajax will play the German club Schalke. Of course if both Ajax and Besiktas win, they could be drawn against one another later on in the competition. I'm sure there would be a lot of political interest in such a match!!!
Well, today, the Turkish delegation at the Dutch Open Karate tournament in Rotterdam didn't show up. All 47 karatekas from Turkey were absent at the start of this muti-day event. The Dutch Open is one of the largest karate tounaments in the world. Some 1200 sporters from the entire world participate. The European Championship for Seniors is held later this year in Turkey.
So, Besiktas would probably also have been AWOL if they had been playing against Ajax.
Who said that Sport unites? Not Erdogan.
One the other hand, others have said 'soccer is war'. Guess we'll never know the outcome of that soccer match.
Cheers,
Bart
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One the other hand, others have said 'soccer is war'. Guess we'll never know the outcome of that soccer match.
Cheers,
Bart
The great Polish foreign correspondent, Ryszard Kapuscinski. wrote a book on exactly that topic!! http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-394-58413-3
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They had the draw for the Europa League quarter finals today and it would have been very interesting had Ajax (Dutch) and Besiktas (Turkish) been paired up. Alas, it wasn't to be and Ajax will play the German club Schalke. Of course if both Ajax and Besiktas win, they could be drawn against one another later on in the competition. I'm sure there would be a lot of political interest in such a match!!!
Alan (an Ajax fan since the days of Johan Cruyff)
Dutchmen Ryan Babel plays in Besiktas and even scored two times against Olympiakos Piraeus.
So far no problems inside the teams as far as i know...
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Dutchmen Ryan Babel plays in Besiktas and even scored two times against Olympiakos Piraeus.
So far no problems inside the teams as far as i know...
He is given a generous choice: convert, pay tax, or die ;)
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Alan, First you didn't ask me why what I say is negative, you just said it was none of my business (which is BS and questioning my right to free speech). You can't win that argument so now I'm suddenly anti or negative about America, but point me to one post where I'm negative to America as a whole. You can't! I'm seriously critical of Trump's actions and I don't agree with some of the statements you make about his policies. But that's something entirely different then being anti-American.
You certainly have the right of free speech. However, when you visit someone in their home, it's impolite to criticize the furniture they selected. You don't live there and it's none of your business. If what we do effects you, then it's another matter. But most of the stuff we do has little or no bearing on you any more than what you do with Turkish ambassadors means to us. That's your call. All I ask is your respect our calls. It's rude to butt into other people's business.
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He is given a generous choice: convert, pay tax, or die ;)
Or on a lighter note:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqLA4pSahYY
Cheers,
Bart
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You certainly have the right of free speech. However, when you visit someone in their home, it's impolite to criticize the furniture they selected. You don't live there and it's none of your business. If what we do effects you, then it's another matter. But most of the stuff we do has little or no bearing on you any more than what you do with Turkish ambassadors means to us. That's your call. All I ask is your respect our calls. It's rude to butt into other people's business.
Bullshit Alan, it's rude to call somebody anti-American if they only criticize Trump and his policies. That's far from the truth and populist. That's the problem I have with the way you conduct this discussion, you first create a caricature (you're anti-American) and then criticize the fact I should be more neutral. However the point I'm trying to make is that the caricature you're painting is wrong. I am not anti American or negative on America as a whole. I'm only critical on some Trump measures and policies and mainly because of the way they impact the rest of the world. That's not criticizing the furniture of someone I visit, that's asking my neighbor to cut the overhanging branches from the bushes in his garden. That is 100% my business and has nothing to do with your implication that I might not respect the calls you're making.
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Bullshit Alan, it's rude to call somebody anti-American if they only criticize Trump and his policies. That's far from the truth and populist. That's the problem I have with the way you conduct this discussion, you first create a caricature (you're anti-American) and then criticize the fact I should be more neutral. However the point I'm trying to make is that the caricature you're painting is wrong. I am not anti American or negative on America as a whole. I'm only critical on some Trump measures and policies and mainly because of the way they impact the rest of the world. That's not criticizing the furniture of someone I visit, that's asking my neighbor to cut the overhanging branches from the bushes in his garden. That is 100% my business and has nothing to do with your implication that I might not respect the calls you're making.
I did not say in my post that foreigners (not referring to you in particular) could not criticize Trump if his policies effected the poster. That's on limits because his policies could effect you such as discussion about NATO. But the ad hominin attacks on Trump regarding policies he wants to implement or just attacks against his personality should be off limits. He is our President. He was elected President and represents America. You insult him, the Office of the President, and the American people when you casually attack him and laugh at him. There's nothing stopping non-Americans from doing this. But I feel insulted when you do. I don't attack your Prime Minister like that. If I did, then I would be wrong too.
I also believe that many who post here are anti-American. Every post is negative about us. It's really tiring. Certainly they have the right to do this. But I equally have the right to attack back and make fun of them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander .
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I did not say in my post that foreigners (not referring to you in particular) could not criticize Trump if his policies effected the poster. That's on limits because his policies could effect you such as discussion about NATO. But the ad hominin attacks on Trump regarding policies he wants to implement or just attacks against his personality should be off limits. He is our President. He was elected President and represents America. You insult him, the Office of the President, and the American people when you casually attack him and laugh at him. There's nothing stopping non-Americans from doing this. But I feel insulted when you do. I don't attack your Prime Minister like that. If I did, then I would be wrong too.
I also believe that many who post here are anti-American. Every post is negative about us. It's really tiring. Certainly they have the right to do this. But I equally have the right to attack back and make fun of them. What's good for the goose is good for the gander .
All well and good Alan, but you personally called me anti-American. Still you failed to come up with a post where I did or an admission you were mistaken. On the contrary, I get a multitude of generalizations and off-topic remarks about your hurt feelings and implications of things I did not say. You're free to make critical remarks about the Belgian, Dutch or any other prime minister, my feelings won't be hurt. But calling me anti-American out of the blue deserves an admission that you were mistaken.
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... He is our President. He was elected President and represents America. You insult him, the Office of the President, and the American people when you casually attack him and laugh at him.
Alan, If a person makes a mockery out of his representing the USA, he/she should expect to called out on it. Also, given the divide he's creating inside the USA (he could have stopped when Hillary was defeated, but chose to ramp it up with the weight of his function behind him), it looks more like he is only representing 50% (-3 million) of the Americans (and not even those it seems).
There's nothing stopping non-Americans from doing this. But I feel insulted when you do. I don't attack your Prime Minister like that. If I did, then I would be wrong too.
Not really, if he makes an idiot out of himself or does a lousy job, he'd be asking for it. I'm sorry if you feel insulted, but he started.
I also believe that many who post here are anti-American. Every post is negative about us.
I think you are wrong about that, and are taking it too personal. Don't mistake criticism on what is perceived as a global destabilizer of peace and potential renewed top polluter of the planet, with something directed at you personally. After you cast your vote, he is responsible not you.
I can only speak for my small part of the world, but here we tend to use the, say, more British type of directness in our conversation but mean no disrespect (unless deserved). Across only one border, it is already quite different. Culture differences and language barriers, are to be taken into account when weighing responses. In fact, most of the posts in the coffee corner (even with heated debate) seem to be quite reasonably supported with e.g. references to source material (however flawed the objectivity of the source may be).
Cheers,
Bart
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Pieter: I wasn't directing my comments to you in particular but rather to those who always find a reason to post anti-American comments. However, since you feel that my comments were directed to you, then I was wrong and I apologize. I should have been more careful in the way I said it.
Certainly Trump deserved a lot of criticism but it's the ad-hominin attacks that get old after awhile. It's the "mean spirited" words from non-Americans that should be off-limits. Additionally, this is not some anonymous blog where no one knows anyone else. We're all part of the same photo community and should try to keep it respectful. So, I should not insult your prime minister even though you might not mind. Others of your countrymen might.
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He is given a generous choice: convert, pay tax, or die ;)
^^not really. Babel is pretty much over the hill and either Turkey or China are the only places that would pay him to play football.
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I should have been more careful in the way I said it.
Thanks Alan, agree we're photographer friends who disagree on some politics. But I think the former is more important than the latter.
For the rest (at the risk of insulting you, which I don't want to do) is that I agree with Bart's post above, if Trump makes a fool out of himself he should be called out on it. It seems a lot of criticism the non-American spew here (that you get tired of) are in line with what a large portion of the US people think about him. Jeff, who started this thread, is a full bred American and his remarks are not kind either. So on an international forum like this I think you'll have to accept that not everybody outside the US agrees with him, gives their opinion, and not be personally insulted by it.
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Thanks Alan, agree we're photographer friends who disagree on some politics. But I think the former is more important than the latter.
For the rest (at the risk of insulting you, which I don't want to do) is that I agree with Bart's post above, if Trump makes a fool out of himself he should be called out on it. It seems a lot of criticism the non-American spew here (that you get tired of) are in line with what a large portion of the US people think about him. Jeff, who started this thread, is a full bred American and his remarks are not kind either. So on an international forum like this I think you'll have to accept that not everybody outside the US agrees with him, gives their opinion, and not be personally insulted by it.
Jeff's an American. Although I don't agree with many of the things he says or the way he says it, he's a compatriot. However, when two brothers disagree, it's impolite for an outsider to butt in and take sides. Again, for the third time, I'm referring to the personal attacks on Trump like calling him an idiot or an orange hair monster or a Fascist. If his policies effect you and your country, I want you to post your concerns how these are a problem. I could learn something. Also, knocking every American decision that only effects us is also impolite.
How would you feel if I posted a comment that the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives. Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave. Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages. Turkish-Dutch citizens are treated like immigrants. They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch. Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi. And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch. He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there. By the way, isn't Trump Dutch? Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert.
I apologize for my last paragraph. But I wanted to show you the kind of anti-American or anti-Trump comments we feel from many non-Americans over here when they post. The comments become insulting. Can you see how I feel?
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Attacking Muslims with horses, dogs and batons a few days before election had only one purpose: to steal votes from Gaart. A brilliant political move by the prime minister.
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How would you feel if I posted a comment that the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives. Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave. Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages. Turkish-Dutch citizens are treated like immigrants. They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch. Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi. And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch. He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there. By the way, isn't Trump Dutch? Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert.
Sorry Alan, I would not be any way insulted by these words. I will just try to use logical arguments to show you're way off base in left field. You might even be in the stands trying to catch a home run.
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Attacking Muslims with horses, dogs and batons a few days before election had only one purpose: to steal votes from Gaart. A brilliant political move by the prime minister.
Yup, just like Ferguson, playing hardball on protesters to gain conservative electorate ;)
Just kidding, but you're off base as much as Alan on this one.
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Sorry Alan, I would not be any way insulted by these words. I will just try to use logical arguments to show you're way off base in left field. You might even be in the stands trying to catch a home run.
I'm glad you weren't insulted. I'm waiting for your counter arguments.
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Attacking Muslims with horses, dogs and batons a few days before election had only one purpose: to steal votes from Gaart. A brilliant political move by the prime minister.
You are making cynical jokes again right? - at least i hope so...
At least you are not president of the US of A, but still do not think they are funny.
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I'm glad you weren't insulted. I'm waiting for your counter arguments.
Because you asked so kindly, I thought you never would ;)
the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives
It was the other way around. The Turkish ambassador lied to the Dutch authorities. He said nobody was coming while he knew one of his ministers was underway. Until the Turks started to threaten with sanctions the Dutch government negotiated in good faith.
Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave. Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages. Turkish-Dutch citizens are treated like immigrants. They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch.
Do you know how many immigrants from Turkish origin sit Dutch parliament and other official functions. There is no problems with Turkish immigrants who integrate in the Dutch society and they can reach high levels in government and private enterprises. They can keep their historical religion and customs as long as they stick to the rules. Once they're troublemakers we like them out, but that's the minority, the majority of these immigrants are hardworking and well respected in the Dutch society. Same with other immigrant nationalities. You read too many populist hate media if you think anything else.
Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi.
I'm going to repeat what the prime minister said: "We're not going to lower ourselves to that level of historical falsehoods". Before Erdogan criticizes the Dutch government he should let one anti government demonstration go ahead in Turkey. Just count how many political opponents of Erdogan end up in jail and you know his real character and what he is after.
And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch. He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there.
Very unlikely, but time will tell. Your crystal ball is as good as mine ;)
By the way, isn't Trump Dutch? Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert.
This is probably the only point you might be right, or let me say it differently, it sure looks like it (sorry, couldn't resist puling your leg, pls. don't feel personally insulted).
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How would you feel if I posted a comment that the Dutch were really acting like bigots regarding the way they treated the Turkish ambassador and other Turkish representatives.
Not Pieter, but allow me to respond. I would feel that you are wrong. Not something to get upset about, because you do not have the information that we have. The mayor of Rotterdam is trying for months already (even before the failed coup in Turkey) to get the different Turkish minded factions at his table, in an attempt to defuse the tensions between them. Some of the groups are well integrated in the Durch society, others despite being 3rd generation native Dutch only watch Turkish TV via satellite dish and have relative poor language skills and pronunciation. The latter identify more with Turkey than with the Netherlands, despite their schooling and other benefits that life has to offer. On could say that their integration has failed.
That failure is partially a Dutch shortcoming and partly a shortcoming in their upbringing. But part of it is also caused by 'the long arm of Ankara'. Erdogan talks about these native Dutch citizens as Turkish citizens and instructs them through the consulate to e.g. report Gülen (former friend but now ideological adversary) sympathizers so that their family in Turkey can be arrested/fired/worse and passports confiscated.
The different factions are so opposite in their appreciation of the Turkish meddling in their daily lives that they avoid being seen together, because of the potential consequences for family and wellbeing. This occasionally escalates in violence, because they are so passionate.
The last thing that the Mayor of Rotterdam needs is people physically hurting or killing each other in the streets of his city. Doesn't seem like an unreasonable desire. So when a foreign power, deliberately(!) tries to stir up trouble, and disrupt the sensitive balance to a. gain support for a referendum to convert Turkey in an autocracy, and b. provoke a reaction that can be used at home (in Turkey) to play the 'blame the enemy and support your powerful leader' game, that doesn't help, to put it mildly.
Blocking entry had more to do with anti-Turk politics before the election than the official reasons the prime minister gave.
There are no anti-Turk politics. Turkey is a NATO partner and the Netherland is the largest direct investor (21 billion Euro annually) in Turkey. We helped reinforce Turkey’s air defenses against the threat of Syrian rockets by stationing some 200 Dutch troops with our Patriot anti-ballistic missile deployment in Adana from 2013 to 2015 (when the systems were returned for upgrading, and the Spanish took our place). http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_113858.htm and http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_116890.htm
Their secret feelings are they'd like to get rid of Muslim and Turks in their country if they could find others who would work at the same peon wages. Turkish-Dutch citizens are treated like immigrants. They're not considered Dutch by the real Dutch.
Nope. In fact, the Mayor of Rotterdam is a Muslim of Moroccan decent and is considered to be one of the best Mayors in the country.
Erdogan was half right when he called your prime minister a anti-Turk Fascist and a remnant Nazi.
He is not 50% but 100% wrong, and only uses such words (and worse) as a provocation. Our PM responded that he would not lower himself to such levels by even taking such remarks seriously. And that all transpired after the Turks deliberately tried to escalate things, not before it happened. Similar insults were aimed at Germany earlier.
And the bigoted, anti Muslim Geert, who despite his loss, represents many Dutch.
We have similar extremists as you do in the USA, and Wilders' party was elected (partly as a protest vote) by some 13% (was 10.1% prior election) of the voters.
He will win next time if there's a big riot in the Turkish community or a Muslim terrorist blows something up there. By the way, isn't Trump Dutch? Maybe he learned from the Dutch Geert.
Not if we don't feed the troll attempts. Or, as our PM tends to say, don't react on each and every piece of red meat that is flung into the arena.
I apologize for my last paragraph. But I wanted to show you the kind of anti-American or anti-Trump comments we feel from many non-Americans over here when they post. The comments become insulting. Can you see how I feel?
Understood, but misplaced. When the discussion is based or false information, it gives an opportunity to correct it or explain what's wrong about the interpretation.
Cheers,
Bart
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Not Pieter,
Well, I also responded but thank you for the additional detailed insights you provided.
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You are making cynical jokes again right? - at least i hope so...
Why? You think that Dutch politicians somehow differ from the rest of the world and are not capable of calculated maneuvers? By the way, France allowed the same gatherings you blocked, and nothing happened. On the contrary, because you blocked it, you had more public order disturbance in the backlash demonstrations than if you allowed it.
If I were in your prime minister's shoes (clompen?), I would do the same thing: act tough, use horses, dogs and batons to prove to the electorate that, with me in charge, they don't really need that "crazy" Gaart guy to protect them from the "scum."
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Slobodan, it's Geert (not Gaart) and klompen (not clompen). However very much in line with the other nonsense you put in your post ;)
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... However very much in line with the other nonsense you put in your post ;)
You see now how commentaries and views from across the ocean often look like nonsense? ;)
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integration
why you are not using the proper word - assimilation ?
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You see now how commentaries and views from across the ocean often look like nonsense? ;)
But I expected better from you as a former European ;)
But I fully expect you to know yourself where you went off the rails. But playing dumb can be a smart move sometimes :P
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But I expected better from you as a former European ;)
Ah, but you see, I am a former SouthEast European, with a strong distaste and distrust for governments, politicians and their motivations. 500 years under foreign (Muslim) governments, and last decades under communist/socialist ones, would do that even to the most naive of us :)
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why you are not using the proper word - assimilation ?
Well, the intent was integration, but even assimilation failed for some. They really feel more Turkish than Dutch, despite being born and raised here, as were their parents. Sad, is't it, especially when one sees the direction Turkey is heading? But that's something for the Turks to decide, as long as they don't make it our business.
Cheers,
Bart
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Ah, but you see, I am a former SouthEast European, with a strong distaste and distrust for governments, politicians and their motivations. 500 years under foreign (Muslim) governments, and last decades under communist/socialist ones, would do that even to the most naive of us :)
I sympathize, and now you got Trump, which could be seen as a step up given your background experiences. ;)
Everything is relative ...
Cheers,
Bart
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... They really feel more Turkish than Dutch, despite being born and raised here, as were their parents. Sad, isn't it...
Ah, but you see, in our case you only refer to them as Americans, home-grown, domestic, etc. The moment they change their immigration status and become citizens, the very next day you refuse to accept that they are Muslims, and that even in the second or third generation they "feel more Muslim than American," to borrow your phrase.
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Ah, but you see, in our case you only refer to them as Americans, home-grown, domestic, etc. The moment they change their immigration status and become citizens, the very next day you refuse to accept that they are Muslims, and that even in the second or third generation they "feel more Muslim than American," to borrow your phrase.
You are confusing some things. When people make a deliberate (or in some cases forced) choice to immigrate and take on a different nationality (if allowed after vetting), that might even create a stronger sense of being part of the new homeland, than someone who happened to be born in that country. There are also those who show no gratitude to the kind reception they got to begin with, and there are those who did okay or even fine, in the beginning but got disappointed and radicalized, perhaps due to the bigottery and discrimination they experienced themselves or those whom they feel connected with.
There are all sorts of shades of grey, you as a talented photographer should know that.
But feeling more Turkish than Dutch, not because you or your own parents were born there, but your grandfather was, does raise some questions, doesn't it?
Cheers,
Bart
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...But feeling more Turkish than Dutch, not because you or your own parents were born there, but your grandfather was, does raise some questions, doesn't it?
Cheers,
Bart
That's a low blow. Even I can feel it.
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... But feeling more Turkish than Dutch, not because you or your own parents were born there, but your grandfather was, does raise some questions, doesn't it?
Curious, what kind of questions?
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The view of what's really happening in the Netherlands from this side of the Atlantic really comports to my original post. The tone of the Dutch posts in response only confirmed much of it. You look on the Turks as second class citizens and have a problem with the Muslim faith and Turkish culture. They're just not Dutch enough. You fellows really need to focus on your own country's issues and stop diverting attention to ours. You got a lot of work to do. In the meanwhile, we'll take care of our own problems.
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The view of what's really happening in the Netherlands from this side of the Atlantic really comports to my original post. The tone of the Dutch posts in response only confirmed much of it. You look on the Turks as second class citizens and have a problem with the Muslim faith and Turkish culture. They're just not Dutch enough. You fellows really need to focus on your own country's issues and stop diverting attention to ours. You got a lot of work to do. In the meanwhile, we'll take care of our own problems.
Alan, pls. see post # 55 (and 56) of this thread. If you understand what we're saying there you'll see you're still way off base, in the stands trying to catch a home-run.
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Curious, what kind of questions?
Like: Why? What happened?
Just for openers ...
Cheers,
Bart
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Alan, pls. see post # 55 (and 56) of this thread. If you understand what we're saying there you'll see you're still way off base, in the stands trying to catch a home-run.
Sorry, they were fly outs.
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Sorry, they were fly outs.
Your loss, if you believe your own BS that's fine with me, but if you're not willing (or able) to motivate your position any clearer then you have done so far very few people will give your opinion any more then a sorry smile and think "poor soul, he doesn't know any better"
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Back to the OP. No progress report on the journey of 40 Holstein cows back to Holland, but
Hurriyet, the leading news source for Turkey just revealed: "Turkish Interior Minister Süleyman Soylu has said Turkey could send 15,000 refugees a month to Europe to shock the Europeans following a recent diplomatic crisis".
Turkey sending refugees to Europe (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/lets-send-15000-migrants-a-month-to-europe-to-shock-them-turkish-interior-minister.aspx?pageID=238&nID=110926&NewsCatID=510)
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...Turkey sending refugees to Europe (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/lets-send-15000-migrants-a-month-to-europe-to-shock-them-turkish-interior-minister.aspx?pageID=238&nID=110926&NewsCatID=510)
They been sending invaders to Europe since the 14th century. Will finally succeed in the 21st.
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That's a low blow. Even I can feel it.
I don't think the question is a blow, it's merely a fact and asking why it happened.
The blow you're referring to might be in the (assumed) answer, but that's up to the person giving (or assuming) the answer.
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well, the Dutch meant well,
but the director of the fund for journalism which paid the media groups hundreds of thousands of euros in subsidies, admits that the projects did not go well.
Dutch-Turkish media groups that support Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan were supported for years with funding from the Dutch Ministry of Education, Culture and Science, Het Parool reports based on its own research. The Stimulation Fund for Journalism paid these media groups hundreds of thousands of euros in subsidies. Most of this money could not be recovered because the companies behind the media groups went bankrupt.
http://nltimes.nl/2017/03/17/pro-erdogan-turkish-dutch-media-funded-dutch-subsidies-report
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Back to the OP. No progress report on the journey of 40 Holstein cows back to Holland, but
Hurriyet, the leading news source for Turkey just revealed: "Turkish Interior Minister Süleyman Soylu has said Turkey could send 15,000 refugees a month to Europe to shock the Europeans following a recent diplomatic crisis".
Turkey sending refugees to Europe (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/lets-send-15000-migrants-a-month-to-europe-to-shock-them-turkish-interior-minister.aspx?pageID=238&nID=110926&NewsCatID=510)
Erdogan also stated in one of his many speeches that Turkish women in Europe will have to make more children, not 3 but 5...
In a way he uses the same tactics as Trump did on the road to the elections; scream out loud a lot of nonsense; the nonsense the Turks want to hear... Make the Turkish empire GREAT again...!
We need a strong leader! to protect us from the evil outside world...
At the same time the economy is going worse and Turkey becomes more isolated. A good reason to shout even louder.
Erdogan is a Turkish disaster. Ataturk was right- politics and religion need to be separated.
Investors will run away, tourism is down, and a war with the Kurds is already a fact.
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Erdogan also stated in one of his many speeches that Turkish women in Europe will have to make more children, not 3 but 5...
Which just confirms what is said before, that Muslims are using "weaponized natality."
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Strange coincidence, as we speak, a wedding party just exited the mosque's parking area down the street from where I live, cars honking as if we're in Istanbul, and many of the cars were decorated with both a Turkish flag and a Dutch flag. The display of flags is a new touch.
Cheers,
Bart
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Strange coincidence, as we speak, a wedding party just exited the mosque's parking area down the street from where I live, cars honking as if we're in Istanbul, and many of the cars were decorated with both a Turkish flag and a Dutch flag. The display of flags is a new touch.
Cheers,
Bart
How do you feel about it?
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Erdogan also stated in one of his many speeches that Turkish women in Europe will have to make more children, not 3 but 5...
In a way he uses the same tactics as Trump did on the road to the elections; scream out loud a lot of nonsense; the nonsense the Turks want to hear... Make the Turkish empire GREAT again...!
We need a strong leader! to protect us from the evil outside world...
At the same time the economy is going worse and Turkey becomes more isolated. A good reason to shout even louder.
Erdogan is a Turkish disaster. Ataturk was right- politics and religion need to be separated.
Investors will run away, tourism is down, and a war with the Kurds is already a fact.
All leaders use nationalism to get the vote. Nothing new about that. What would you expect them to say?
"I plan to give away all the country's resources and wealth. I'm going to de-militarize and open us up to invasion. My campaign promise is to make the country miserable, weak, and dis-respected. Now, go out and vote for me."
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How do you feel about it?
The flags are a nice touch, although I fail to see the relevance for a wedding. In fact they also had a white scarf tied to the rear-view mirror. There must be some symbolism attached to that ...
Have to ask someone more versed in their ceremony.
I'm confident that Slobodan will offer an in-depth analysis, or maybe he sort of did in the preceding post.
Cheers,
Bart
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To me it seems like they're proud of both their Dutch citizenship and Turkish heritage. Like yesterday in America during St. Patrick day parade in NYC where you'll see American flags as well as shamrocks and Irish flags. As an aside, I grew up in The Bronx, a borough of NYC. It was named after Jonas Bronck who lived their hundreds of years ago, a Dutchman. When people wanted to visit them, they would say, "Let's go up to the Bronck's" meaning their home. So not only the name stayed, but the The also. No one around here says The Brooklyn or The New York, but everyone says The Bronx. Of course New York was originally New Stuyvesant until your friends the English stopped by and decided to rename it. when I was a kid we used to play stoopball. I'll let you figure out what that was.
Anyway, maybe the white "scarf" represents the veil a Muslim woman wears for pre-marital modesty that is removed because she's with her husband now in the car and isn't required in front of him. Just a guess.