Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: drralph on February 03, 2017, 03:09:36 pm
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I am exploring alternative printing media, and want to experiment with Kozo. I have not sound a source for this paper. A thread from last year started by Gary Wornell, who developed the paper, had a link to a supplier. But they no longer carry the product. Any leads?
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I got a 17" roll from Amazon UK.
I've used very very little of it and since I live about 20m from you, maybe we can work something out.
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Moab and Awagami Factory ("AWA I.J.P") make Kozo papers and they are available.
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I am exploring alternative printing media, and want to experiment with Kozo. I have not sound a source for this paper. A thread from last year started by Gary Wornell, who developed the paper, had a link to a supplier. But they no longer carry the product. Any leads?
In the US Freestyle photo carries Awagami papers.
Freestyle (http://www.freestylephoto.biz/inkjet/awagami)
You can see the Moab offering here:
Moab Moenkopi (http://moabpaper.com/moenkopi-washi/)
Here is a 'propaganda' video made by the factory:
Awagami washi (https://youtu.be/YOL8I1WDrQw)
Personally, I would like to see some examples before purchasing.
Be prepared to empty your purse, these papers aren't inexpensive.
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Actually, I'm now in the process of evaluating these papers (along with some others) and preparing a review. It will be a while till publication. Stay tuned.
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I have bought a package of the Moab Moenkopi Kozo from B&H and am now starting to think about how I might go about printing with it. Any suggestions/comments about paper profiles would be appreciated. I use an Epson 3880 and usually print using Imageprint.
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Doesn't ImagePrint have profiles for it?
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Imageprint has 3 Awagami Kozo profiles, but there isn't a Kozo profile are listed under Moab. I'm not sure which of the Awagami profiles is the best to use for the product that Moab is selling, maybe the Kozo Natural? Given the price of this paper, I rather not waste very much of it trying out profiles if someone knows which is the best profile to use. I emailed Moab (this weekend) about which Imageprint profile might be the best one to use, but I haven't heard back from them yet.
It's also been be reported that the profile for Canson Rag Photographique produces OK results.
In any case, I will be interested in reading about your experiences with this paper when you post your review.
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Imageprint has 3 Awagami Kozo profiles, but there isn't a Kozo profile are listed under Moab. I'm not sure which of the Awagami profiles is the best to use for the product that Moab is selling, maybe the Kozo Natural? Given the price of this paper, I rather not waste very much of it trying out profiles if someone knows which is the best profile to use. I emailed Moab (this weekend) about which Imageprint profile might be the best one to use, but I haven't heard back from them yet.
It's also been be reported that the profile for Canson Rag Photographique produces OK results.
In any case, I will be interested in reading about your experiences with this paper when you post your review.
Thanks Jay, it will be a while but the work is in progress. The Awagami Kozo and the Moab Kozo papers I'm told are the same paper - the Moab Kozo is made in the Awagami IJP plant. Moab itself has a profile available for its Kozo paper/Epson 3880 here: http://moabpaper.com/icc-profiles-downloads/. Have you tried that one?
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I am exploring alternative printing media, and want to experiment with Kozo. I have not sound a source for this paper. A thread from last year started by Gary Wornell, who developed the paper, had a link to a supplier. But they no longer carry the product. Any leads?
To add another manufacturer of oriental inkjet papers, Mitsubishi makes some Kenaf qualities distributed with the Pictorico label.
http://www.mitsubishiimaging.com/pictorico-fine-art.html
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
November 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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I'm 99% sure I made a 3880/Epson Kozo custom profile. I'll verify and post a link
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The Epson Kozo profile is still available.
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I've just received an email from ImagePrint; the Moab Moenkopi Kozo paper is the same as the Awagami Kozo White paper and so that is the profile to use.
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Moab just rebrands a couple of the Awagami surfaces and gives them a funny Indian name. I just order the Awagami from Freestyle.
The Moab people do have profiles on their website that work with the Awagami as well. I made my own but theirs are pretty good.
Awagami makes a thin version that you can peel the back off of like the Epson. It is really nice. I've used it. It can be ordered in a 44" roll.
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/213551500-Awagami-Kozo-Double-Layered-Inkjet-Paper-90gsm-44-in.-x-49-ft.-Roll
john
I've just received an email from ImagePrint; the Moab Moenkopi Kozo paper is the same as the Awagami Kozo White paper and so that is the profile to use.
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I've had great success with Epson's Kozo, but I need something to say to buyers about its archival nature. Does anyone know the story here?
Thanks,
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Nothing really specific.
From Gary himself..
Jim, This paper is a Signature Worthy paper and when used with Epson K3 Ultrachrome inkset has an archival life equivalent to all the papers in that range. What's more is that the paper has amazing abrasion resistance, deep blacks and a heavenly surface unlike any other paper on the market. I have worked with a cabinet maker now in Finland for the last 2 years making Japanese Screen type applications and these have been laminated with paper side out onto polycarbonate allowing the light to pass through as if there was no firm support. It also makes for beautiful lamps as can be seen on the Facebook page: http://tinyurl.com/kvceclc
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Nothing really specific.
From Gary himself..
Jim, This paper is a Signature Worthy paper and when used with Epson K3 Ultrachrome inkset has an archival life equivalent to all the papers in that range.
Except that papers currently in the Epson "Signature Worthy" line vary widely in print permanence, Epson Exhibition Fiber paper, for example, being exceptionally "unsignature worthy" due to very poor media whitepoint stability over time. Not to disparage the Kozo paper, it's a very intriguing material, but without hard test results backing up any claims of "archival" properties compared to other papers when used in combination with various respective ink sets, it's purely conjectural to comment on long term print permanence properties of the Kozo paper. Aardenburg Imaging & Archives has not tested it, and there seems to be no data on the Wilhelm Imaging Research website, either. Image Permanence Institute? No. Even Epson's own marketing claims? In summary, I haven't run across any information on the Kozo paper regarding lightfastness, thermal and/or humidity fastness, gas fade resistance, etc. As such, we can all hope for the best or just ignore the issue entirely, but there's no hard data to support anyone's opinion at this time, AFAIK.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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I've used rice papers for over 40 years in paintings, for Shoji screens, for lamps, light diffusers, and other varried uses. The paper is strong yet fragile. To place concern on longevity is iffy, at best, since the thinness and lightness of the paper makes it extremely vulnerable. Lightfastness only applies if it physically lasts that long. The issue becomes more about its strength as a substrate.
Traditionally, Japanese rice papers used in functional situations, ie,lamps, screens, etc., were expected to be occasionally replaced due to the rigors of daily life, and how easy they could be damaged.
Framed prints, behind glass - that's another story. I have the Epson Kozo, have made custom profiles for it for Z33200ps, and it's nice, but in comparison to Japanese rice papers I've used, it is unremarkable.
The papers John Dean suggests (which I have also used thanks to his generosity sending me samples) are preferable IMO.
There are certain kinds of images that work on Kozo, and many that just don't. Definitely a specialty paper, well suited for particular purposes.
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"Signature Worthy", that's so funny. Whenever I hear that word I hold on to my wallet. It cracks me up how the Epson sales mythology has become part of the vocabulary of modern printmaking. The times we live in .................
There are many different "rice" papers made from many different trees. Awagami sells several that are made from the bark of several different trees and bushes. The Epson stuff is Kozo, mulberry. It has been the most popular tree to use in Asia going back to the beginning of paper making. The Epson stuff is good ( if only available ) but so is the Awagami thin that can also be used for backlit applications.
By the way it is not just Americans who call these traditional Asian papers "rice papers". My wife's father was a well known painter from Shanghai who used these a lot going back to the 1970s for traditional Chinese painting sold in his gallery in NY. He used mulberry extensively, and bought it in giant rolls from Hong Kong. I still have some it here. He always called them rice papers, so they were taught to call them that in China.
Before the Japanese started using them, the Chinese invented these kinds of papers for brush painting, back in the Tang Dynasty in the 8th Century, what many people call the high point in Chinese culture on many levels. Calligraphy in both carbon black as well as color and bw landscape painting was done on it. There are thousands and thousands of of examples of painting in great condition that were done on these papers since the Tang, in museums all over the world. Of course the longevity then, as today depends on the quality of the pigments used as well as how the paper was made and stored. But I've seen some scroll painting from China and Japan that are at least 500 years old that look great, and believe me they were not stored in museum conditions all this time and I'm sure there are artworks on the market a lot older than that. On many I've seen the paper has darkened slightly, but this is also true of the Rembrand, Durr, and Damier prints that I've held in my hand, that were printed on cotton, while cataloging a print collection for a museum.
Since Kozo is wood pulp is it full of lignan that is acidic. It is for the most part removed from the " alpha-cellulose" paper we use for printmaking today ( like say Canson Baryta or Hahnemuhle German Etching ). I don't know if these ancient papers were treated with anything when they were made or not. But the reason the Kozo was used was because it was tough and because you had a tight weave making the spreading of calligraphy ink less apparent. That is why many of us have been able to print on it for years without any ink receptor coating. ( the receptor coating by Epson and Awagami is great and I'm really glad to have it, but we don't know it's long term effects on the image ). Since these papers are already warmish and fairly dark it's possible that you just don't see that much of a change over the centuries. The modern bleached versions are certainly going to darken, but nobody had tested them so we don't know how fast.
The real big unknown is how do the modern inkjet print pigments hold up on them? I've been dong a lot of black and white work on the straight uncoated kozo for 15 years and they still look great, but haven't done a lot of color on them so I have no idea how they will hold up with any ink.
My feeling is that usually the kind of work that is done on them, at least in my case, is not work that is super hue specific. In other words fairly abstract and if a couple of hues drift over time I'm not too worried about it. But if you completely lost saturation of a primary color or of everything in a few decades that would be bad, and I'd stick to bw when working with them.
As Mark well knows we can speculate a lot about these things, but slapping the word "signature worthy" or "archival" on a fine art paper is nutty, unless you can back it up by paying to have them tested.
Speaking of tests these new Epson and Canon inks have been out for like a year now and we still don't know the verdict.
John
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Rice paper was a colloquialism for handmade paper created in a specific region. The term got it’s name as a universal descriptor for paper made according to the traditions of specific locations where the paper was made, according to local customs.
Also called Xuancheng by the Chinese during the Tang dynasty indicating where it was made and referring to paper made of rice and wingceltis bark.
From the Tang Dynasty through the Qing Dynasties, Rice Paper was the generic term for paper made from tree bark and rice straw. Rice paper was and is made predominantly from plant or wood fiber, such as rice straw, bamboo, Hemp, mulberry, Gampi among many others.
Rice plants from the Village of Xuan in the Anhui Province was said to be the best material for making rice paper, and it was produced up until the 14th century. During the 7th Century, Rice paper manufacture spread to Japan and Korea where it was called Washi.
Fast forward to more modern times, and Washi (paper) was used by Ukiyo-e atists who produced handmade prints by the thousands. So many of these handmade prints proliferated that they were often used for packing materials for Blue and White ware porcelains being sent to Europe, and particularly to Paris. In Japan, Washi was used for numerous purposes, from drawing, painting, printmaking, calligraphy, shoji screens, windows, doors, etc., scrolls, wrapping, just about anything requiring strong yet lightweight material.
Eventually in Paris, so many of the printed Ukiyo-e prints found in packing began finding their way into the hands of artists who appreciated the exquisite workmanship and design. During the impressionist period in France artists such as Gaugin, Renoir, VanGogh, Seurat, Monet, Degas, and several others became influenced by the amazing “people’s art” literally meaning “The Floating World”. Ukiyo-e, washi papers, and all things of the culture of Japan took the art world by storm in Paris, quickly earning the name “Japonaisery” or “Japanism”.
Since the washi paper was strong and versatile, artists found new ways to use it and soon, artists such as Van Gogh were even incorporating Ukiyo-e prints within their painting as a tribute to Japanese Ukiyo-e masters. From China, to Korea, to Japan wash made its’ way to America where suddenly it became also a trend, pre-war.
Today few Ukiyo-e paper makers are still living. Most papers are no longer hand made, but are manufactured by commercial paper manufacturing companies.
Shouhachi Yamaguchi in Fukui Prefecture continues the Washi tradition creating his Washi out of Mulberry. He is one of two Washi Craftsmen, national treasures, still making Echizen Kizuki Housho with a tradition of 1500 years.
There is a resurgence of interest of paper making among some young people, but the old masters have all but died off. A Canadian, Richard Bull lives and works in Japan and considered an Ukiyo-e master. He has difficulty getting real paper.
I was fortunate to be able to go through numerous portfolios of Ukiyo-e prints in Paris in 1986 and again in 1990 during studies for a minor in Asian Art History while I was getting my MFA. I worked with Dr. Penelope Mason (author of Arts of Japan) who was a student of Edward Kidder, America’s foremost japanologist, and author of numerous books published by Kodansha. Seeing and handling thousands of Ukiyo-e prints, paintings and scrolls, it became clear to me that washi, Japanese handmade paper was a diverse art, a product of deep traditions of Japanese craft guilds, secrets being handed down through careful selection and processes carefully guarded.
There was as great a diversity of hand made paper then as there is of manufactured paper now.
The manufactured papers now have no such tradition behind them, nor do they necessarily carry the weight, the heft, the glow of hand made paper, call it Washi or Rice paper, or Kozo. But it is about all we’ve got. Paper from a few paper manufacturers attempting to emulate historical handmade art.
Mark
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Actually, I'm now in the process of evaluating these papers (along with some others) and preparing a review. It will be a while till publication. Stay tuned.
Mark, as someone who is considering using washi paper (most likely Awagami Bizan) in a project, I'm looking forward to your upcoming article. Hopefully, you'll be able to add to our somewhat sparse knowledge base about the permanence of these papers.
I did find a piece from Japanese conservator, Yoko Shiraiwa, discussing various uses of Japanese papers in photo conservation and printing that you might find interesting.
http://shiraiwaconservation.com/_src/2839/adapt_and_evolve_poster.pdf
She discusses testing of blended kozo and gampi papers in the context of platinum-palladium printing, and reports that accelerated aging tests "showed excellent permanence."
As an admirer of Takeshi Shikama's platinum prints on gampi paper, these results make intuitive sense, but specifics about the test methodology and findings are not included. It would be great to have the opportunity to read the underlying data, Aardenburg style.
I wonder if Ms. Shiraiwa might be a helpful source of information as you research this very interesting subject.
Good luck with your article.
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Mark, as someone who is considering using washi paper (most likely Awagami Bizan) in a project, I'm looking forward to your upcoming article.
The article was published back in March, here, including Kozo and Unryu but not Bizan: Kozo, Unryu (https://luminous-landscape.com/specialty-papers-review-special-papers/)
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The article was published back in March, here, including Kozo and Unryu but not Bizan: Kozo, Unryu (https://luminous-landscape.com/specialty-papers-review-special-papers/)
Thanks, Mark. I'll check it out.
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I've been working with washi papers through inkjet for about 15 years. I started doing them on the Epson 10k and with Cones quad inks and the original ultrachrome on a couple of 9600s. I did many shows for people during those years and we loved them. Usually I used the basic inexpensive mulberry that was used for Asian brush painting, and over the years used many of the cool papers, both coated and uncoated for inkjet by Hiromi out of Santa Monica, especially their expensive gampi. More recently I've used the sharper rolls made by Awagami in Japan. Some of my work was in their exhibition in Japan last year. They have so many nice textures and thicknesses and textures. They were a joy to use . The Awagami Bizan is beautiful.
But then Gary Worell contacted some of us a year and a half ago on this forum and sent us samples of the mulberry he designed and liscenced through Epson. It was never released in the us for me to work with. I was very impressed with the amazing sharpness and dmax , for black and white especially. However I hadn't printed a show on it or really got into it until this weekend.
I watched Gary's videos on YouTube and mounted 20x30 prints on it in shadowbox frames with PVA book binding glue. All I can say is that I am totally blown away with the quality of the Epson kozo. This work is my own work and is of an ethnically diverse neighborhood in Atlanta that I had started printing on Platine. The matte kozo backlit is even more luminous than the platine and has the added advantage of the amazing organic texture of mulberry. No single media that I have ever used made such a big impression on me . I'm in love with it. It's bizarre that it isn't available in the US ! But I ordered mine on Amazon U.K. And it got here in three days! Course I did have to pay for shipping but it was like $16.00 I believe for that. Mine was shipped from France.
I don't know what the oba content is and we need to find that out, but damn this is a beautiful paper. It looks sharper than my Canson matte media with as good of a color gamut or better. Whatever awards he's won for this kozo he has earned big time . Thank you Gary !
By the way I did do direct comparisons between the Epson Kozo and the Awagami thin and thick, and in all respects of full color gamut, resolution, and maximum black, Gary's media is in a class all its own. He wasn't bragging about that . It's the truth.
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Dean, do you have a link to those videos on you tube? Search isn't helping me. Would love to see photos of your shadow boxed prints.
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I've been working with washi papers through inkjet for about 15 years. I started doing them on the Epson 10k and with Cones quad inks and the original ultrachrome on a couple of 9600s. I did many shows for people during those years and we loved them. Usually I used the basic inexpensive mulberry that was used for Asian brush painting, and over the years used many of the cool papers, both coated and uncontested for inkjet by Hiromi out of Santa Monica, especially their expensive gampi. More recently I've used the sharper rolls made by Awagami in Japan. Some of my work was in their exhibition in Japan last year. They have so many nice textures and thicknesses and textures. They were a joy to use . The Awagami Bizan is beautiful.
But then Gary Worell contacted some of us a year and a half ago on this forum and sent us samples of the mulberry he designed and liscenced through Epson. It was never released in the us for me to work with. I was very impressed with the amazing sharpness and dmax , for black and white especially. However I hadn't printed a show on it or really got into it until this weekend.
I watched Gary's videos on YouTube and mounted 20x30 prints on it in shadowbox frames with PGA book binding glue. All I can say is that I am totally blown away with the quality of the Epson kozo. This work is my own work and is of an ethnically diverse neighborhood in Atlanta that I had started printing on Platine. The matte kozo backlit is even more luminous than the platine and has the added advantage of the amazing organic texture of mulberry. No single media that I have ever used made such a big impression on me . I'm in love with it. It's bizarre that it isn't available in the US ! But I ordered mine on Amazon U.K. And it got here in three days! Course I did have to pay for shipping but it was like $16.00 I believe for that. Mine was shipped from France.
I don't know what the oba content is and we need to find that out, but damn this is a beautiful paper. It looks sharper than my Canson matte media with as good of a color gamut or better. Whatever awards he's won for this kozo he has earned big time . Thank you Gary !
By the way I did do direct comparisons between the Epson Kozo and the Awagami thin and thick, and in all respects of full color gamut, resolution, and maximum black, Gary's media is in a class all its own. He wasn't bragging about that . It's the truth.
Hi John,
This is indeed very interesting - I wish I had known about that paper (regardless of US availability) before I did my review of the others, as I would have included it. However, never too late, I suppose I can also order some from the UK, give it a try in at least two printers and write it up. Some of the properties you mention would distinguish it from the two I did review, so I'd like to get a first-hand feel for those.
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Sharon...
http://www.garywornell.com/videos/
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Thanks Ron!
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It is the real deal Mark. At first I ordered a 17 inch roll and was shocked so l ordered 2 24 inch rolls. Before I even profiled it with x-rite I ran a familiar file through my Canon just using my Canson rag profile and with a little lightening with levels it looked great. So that will tell you something about the quality of the coating. I only wish they offered it in 44" rolls. If so I would certainly used it for my show.
This is the best video and I can't believe it is 2 years old . I am sooo slow these days . I did exactly as he demonstrates only I used pva glue as apposed to the acrylic medium he used and dried mine for 24 hours before trimming the edges but it was tight and dry in a couple of hours. I post sprayed after drying with the hahnemuhle uv spray. https://youtu.be/xgC6OnFLiRk
Hi John,
This is indeed very interesting - I wish I had known about that paper (regardless of US availability) before I did my review of the others, as I would have included it. However, never too late, I suppose I can also order some from the UK, give it a try in at least two printers and write it up. Some of the properties you mention would distinguish it from the two I did review, so I'd like to get a first-hand feel for those.
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deanwork, thanks for the information.
Regarding OBA content, like you, I haven't seen anything about the Epson Kozo.
While the Awagami website appears silent on the matter of optical brighteners, Freestyle states that their Bizan paper is made without OBA's. Interestingly, their specifications for the Awagami double layered Kozo (which seems very similar to Epson Kozo in that it has a removable backing layer) say nothing about OBA content. I'd really like to get information from Epson and Awagami on this and will pass on what I learn.
Ron, thanks for that link to the videos. Very interesting.
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Anyone who has the paper and an i1Pro2/i1Profiler kit can easily read for the presence of OBA content. Or more simply, a UV flashlight should show it immediately.
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It is the real deal Mark. ...........
Perhaps artistically, but not financially - by the time I land a roll of that in Toronto it's about CAD 130, ouch. Way up there with the most expensive ink-jet paper offerings, but I suppose that's to be expected.
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I just found out.
Some of the Awagami papers are natural while others are brighter. This is the case with all the kozo papers I have used for many years. The Epson is a brighter white than a natural kozo fiber that is fairly warm. But it doesn't appear too bright.
It just so happens that I have recently set up a 12 tube black light bank for printing alternative process . I just put several papers underneath it to see if they glow brightly - the sure sign of oba content. What I found was the follows- regular typing paper glows like crazy as does my Canson premium gloss and also my Hahnemuhle fine art pearl ( which surprised me given its minimal brightness compared to others. The papers that Did Not glow are the following - Canson rag photo, hahnemuhle William turner , the Awagami kozo thin which is almost as white as the Epson kozo, and the Epson Kozo ! Yes. That means both of these kozo are good. The Epson kozo appears very slightly bluer than the Awagami but neither glow. So if the Epson has any dye brighteners at all they are so minimal that they don't show up under black light bulbs. I'm very happy about that. It looks like either Gary has used pigment whiteners or more likely this kozo was bleached, a common feature of previous mulberry products marketed for printmaking.
deanwork, thanks for the information.
Regarding OBA content, like you, I haven't seen anything about the Epson Kozo.
While the Awagami website appears silent on the matter of optical brighteners, Freestyle states that their Bizan paper is made without OBA's. Interestingly, their specifications for the Awagami double layered Kozo (which seems very similar to Epson Kozo in that it has a removable backing layer) say nothing about OBA content. I'd really like to get information from Epson and Awagami on this and will pass on what I learn.
Ron, thanks for that link to the videos. Very interesting.
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Mark, have it shipped to ny and pick it up there. You can think Epson for that.
Perhaps artistically, but not financially - by the time I land a roll of that in Toronto it's about CAD 130, ouch. Way up there with the most expensive ink-jet paper offerings, but I suppose that's to be expected.
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deanwork, nice detective work!
Thanks for the information.
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Mark, have it shipped to ny and pick it up there. You can think Epson for that.
That would cost about the same and cause complications - NAFTA or no NAFTA there's still an international border to deal with - ugh. Easiest just to Click BUY and gulp.
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Mark , if you just want some for tests I'll be happy to send you some cut from my roll of 17 inch. I have quite a bit left.
quote author=Mark D Segal link=topic=116219.msg978251#msg978251 date=1495414440]
That would cost about the same and cause complications - NAFTA or no NAFTA there's still an international border to deal with - ugh. Easiest just to Click BUY and gulp.
[/quote]
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Mark , if you just want some for tests I'll be happy to send you some cut from my roll of 17 inch. I have quite a bit left.
quote author=Mark D Segal link=topic=116219.msg978251#msg978251 date=1495414440]
That would cost about the same and cause complications - NAFTA or no NAFTA there's still an international border to deal with - ugh. Easiest just to Click BUY and gulp.
That's very good of you John and I much appreciate the offer; but I just ordered a roll. I figure by the time I finish profiling it, testing it and making a selection of different kinds of prints I can probably pretty much justify it. Many thanks anyhow.
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Resurrecting an old thread...
As a US photographer, I have been ordering the Epson Kozo from Amazon UK for the last couple years. Epson Kozo is my absolutely favorite paper, with its high DMax, brilliant colors. and scratch resistance, it behaves more like a glossy baryta than other matt paper, let alone other kozo paper from other vendors.
I have a couple projects in the next few months that I need to make 60-80 24" prints. So I was going to order 10 rolls, and to my surprise, it appears that the paper has been discontinued.
I am really devastated by this. I have just perfecting wet-mounting Kozo print on traditional rice paper, to really show off its translucent quality, and now.... unless somehow there remaining rolls available for affordable prices, I must look for lesser alternatives.
I hope Epson reconsiders the decision. I cannot be the only photographer / artist who is missing this paper?
This is one of the sample images I am testing the wet mounting on.
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Sad news indeed. I still have 2 rolls and have a few images I want to make prints using it. Guess I'll have to print wisely. I have some connections regarding this paper and will see what I can learn about inventory etc.
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Kevin, if you are willing to sell me what you have for a fair price (starving artist and all), I will take them. Of course I understand if you want to save them for yourself.
Thanks
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I am not sure I want to seel as I really enjoy the paper. I am going to inquire about some sources I know about the availability or stock of this paper.
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Mark,
An outstanding post,I thank you.
How does the average printer,obtain these types of paper,,Moab?,Epson?
And,is it worth it?
MikeS.
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Mark,
An outstanding post,I thank you.
How does the average printer,obtain these types of paper,,Moab?,Epson?
And,is it worth it?
MikeS.
Mike, if I'm the "Mark" you are talking to, not clear which post you have in mind, and I had dropped the topic of course as the thread died about 10 months ago before it was resurrected the other day. I do have a roll of this, which I just haven't manage to work with yet but I still intend to do so.
As for availability, I don't know where you live so can't advise specifically, but if the papers you need/want are not available from your local sales outlets, there is always on-line ordering from various paper suppliers and general photographic merchandise sellers. You'd need to do a search to see which works best for you in terms of product and delivered cost.
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I have a couple projects in the next few months that I need to make 60-80 24" prints. So I was going to order 10 rolls, and to my surprise, it appears that the paper has been discontinued.
I am really devastated by this. I have just perfecting wet-mounting Kozo print on traditional rice paper, to really show off its translucent quality, and now.... unless somehow there remaining rolls available for affordable prices, I must look for lesser alternatives.
Richard, you might try this source (https://www.teamdigital.com.au/product-category/inks-and-media/inks-and-media-epson-media/inks-and-media-epson-media-kozo/), not sure if price and shipping might be issues, good luck with the project.
Brian.
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Richard, you might try this source (https://www.teamdigital.com.au/product-category/inks-and-media/inks-and-media-epson-media/inks-and-media-epson-media-kozo/), not sure if price and shipping might be issues, good luck with the project.
Brian.
Thank you Brian, sent them an inquiry. I am afraid that I will have to do my projects with other paper. Sigh.
I have talked to Gary, the inventor of the paper. The prognosis does not look good. This literally is the best paper ever...
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What a shame. This is/was a very interesting paper.
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It certainly is .... and let's hope that Gary finds another distributor for this exceptionally perfect paper. It was clearly created as a labor of love and hard work on his part. Maybe Hahnemühle, Legion, or some other serious company will pick it up. In the meantime, thank you Gary for showing us what can be done when something is designed for all the right reasons.
John
Thank you Brian, sent them an inquiry. I am afraid that I will have to do my projects with other paper. Sigh.
I have talked to Gary, the inventor of the paper. The prognosis does not look good. This literally is the best paper ever...
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I believe that Epson Kozo is available from German sources. That’s how English Amazon gets theirs. If Amazon does not work for you, then approach German vendors directly. If your German is rusty, not to worry, they all speak English.
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There is only one roll of 24" left on German Amazon and one roll of 17" on U.K. website.
I believe that Epson Kozo is available from German sources. That’s how English Amazon gets theirs. If Amazon does not work for you, then approach German vendors directly. If your German is rusty, not to worry, they all speak English.
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So with LULA's "Back to print" theme - where do situations like this leave us? When papers you use disappear or change? Last year the whole Harman line was discontinued and as far as I know only the non-warm baryta got a reincarnated version. I've read on this forum about some Canson papers changing significantly and now Kozo's gone. It's not a happy development...
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So with LULA's "Back to print" theme - where do situations like this leave us? When papers you use disappear or change? Last year the whole Harman line was discontinued and as far as I know only the non-warm baryta got a reincarnated version. I've read on this forum about some Canson papers changing significantly and now Kozo's gone. It's not a happy development...
It could indeed be an indication of an overall declining market for fine art printing both at the professional and amateur level, or simply that the media market was overcrowded with me-too products. Market competition probably doesn't apply to the Epson Japanese Kozo paper, however. It was pretty unique. I have already adjusted to the trends here at Aardenburg Imaging. No new light fade tests are planned for calendar year 2018. Existing projects will be largely completed by the end of the year. After that, who knows.
kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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A sentence came to mind:
Permanence is not part of modern society.
Not that it helps any. Sorry.
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So with LULA's "Back to print" theme - where do situations like this leave us? When papers you use disappear or change? Last year the whole Harman line was discontinued and as far as I know only the non-warm baryta got a reincarnated version. I've read on this forum about some Canson papers changing significantly and now Kozo's gone. It's not a happy development...
LuLa's back to the print theme doesn't depend on the availability of specific media. It's a generic proposition suggesting that putting photographs on paper (of which there are many really good ones) is a fine art that deserves to be encouraged, and not lost in the on-rush of online photo-sharing, which also has a place of its own. "Back to the Print" doesn't become any less valid or relevant because one niche paper gets discontinued, undoubtedly due to to commercial considerations as unfortunate as that may be.
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The Harmon Warmtone Baryta was never a popular paper. Both it and the regular Harmon Baryta scratched and jammed horribly in all of our printers due to the extreme curling of both rolls and sheets. I would average one damaged print for every two I made. Besides that, Harmon was bought out by Hahnemühle. I don't even know why Hah is making the regular high gloss baryta again. I don't think it is going to sell for the same reason it didn't do well before.
As to the Epson Kozo Thin, they never even gave it a chance. They didn't promote it, other than some utube videos that no one I know even saw. And it was never released in North America. It's like they wanted it to fail from the beginning. Awagami has been making great consistently make kozo and various kozo blends for inkjet for 10 years and I use it all the time. Hiromi in LA also has some great Asian papers to choose from and their coating has gotten much better last time I tried it.
Hahnemühle has been super consistent with all their major fine art papers too numerous to mention. They are actually selling more fine art media of high quality than I have time to even test. Canson after they were sold to Legion, is having problems with Rag Photographique but maybe that is temporary. The Platine is fine.
We've got a wide variety of smaller companies trying to grab market share as well, such as Red River, Breathing Color, Lexjet, innova, Moab, Ilford inkjet, etc, . And you've got the big printer companies Canon, HP, and Epson selling rebranded Canson and other good stuff. I choose Hahnemuhle for the most part because almost all of their media not only is always available but I never see any changes. Their quality control is superb over the 16 years I've used it.
John
So with LULA's "Back to print" theme - where do situations like this leave us? When papers you use disappear or change? Last year the whole Harman line was discontinued and as far as I know only the non-warm baryta got a reincarnated version. I've read on this forum about some Canson papers changing significantly and now Kozo's gone. It's not a happy development...
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............... Canson after they were sold to Legion,............
John
Actually F.I.L.A of Italy acquired Canson. http://en.canson.com/news/canson-becomes-part-fila
Legion paper is the North American distributor: http://thedeadpixelssociety.com/legion-paper-to-distribute-canson-infinity-papers/
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You are correct.
I just checked my notes. I'm not sure who is doing the coating on the Rag
Photographique now because something has changed but so far Platine has not changed. Not sure about Edition Etching, because I haven't used it lately.
Actually F.I.L.A of Italy acquired Canson. http://en.canson.com/news/canson-becomes-part-fila
Legion paper is the North American distributor: http://thedeadpixelssociety.com/legion-paper-to-distribute-canson-infinity-papers/
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Could be a mill in the UK, but I'm not certain. In any case, it shouldn't matter. To maintain brand allegiance and reliability of profiles, appearance etc. the recipe should be maintained regardless of brand name ownership changes, unless there was something wrong with it beforehand or some huge quality improvement.
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You are correct.
I just checked my notes. I'm not sure who is doing the coating on the Rag
Photographique now because something has changed but so far Platine has not changed. Not sure about Edition Etching, because I haven't used it lately.
You can bet that the Platine still is ordered from Felix Schoeller, like every distributor does. The Canson FILA switch has been discussed before, FILA owns the UK mill for Somerset papers too right now. http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=118824.0
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Yes my supplier said Epson has been buying Platine from Canson but that agreement just ran out so they are going directly to Schoeller themselves from now on for the coating...with the paper still being made in France but owned by the Italian company. ? Global commerce is a complicated thing.
And the Rag Photographique is being coated by Legion, apparently with the paper still being made in France. Probably same situation for Edition Etching.
Don't know who makes the Canson and Epson Baryta papers. But I don't use them.
You can bet that the Platine still is ordered from Felix Schoeller, like every distributor does. The Canson FILA switch has been discussed before, FILA owns the UK mill for Somerset papers too right now. http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=118824.0
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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.................
And the Rag Photographique is being coated by Legion, .........................
My understanding is that Legion doesn't coat anything. It out-sources all these services to established mills owned by others:
https://legionpaper.com/our-mills/
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Would this be a suitable substitute: https://www.moabpaper.com/moenkopi-washi/ ??
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That is the rebranded Awagami. I had some email conversations with one of the Japanese higher ups at Awagami ( who was fluent in English ) when I was in a show over there and he told me then that the two places you could purchase their papers in the U S were freestyle in California and Moab. I have used them both. The coating is good on both and both are very expensive but very well made. I ordered a 44" x 40' roll of the Awagami thick kozo this weekend from Freestyle and it with ground shipping it came to $ 500.00 . Moab is about the same.
In in the past I had run out of this same kozo and they were backordered in that size so I ordered the Moab version. The coating was the same but the Moab was thinner and not as warm, maybe bleached a bit but not bright white. With kozo I generally prefer the natural warm formulas but either one is high quality.
So I guess the deal is Awagami creates this particular version especially for Moab. Freestyle has what looks like the full line of Awagami coated for inkjet papers in many blends and textures. Moab only sells that kozo of theirs and the Bizan another beautiful Awagami surface.
As to Gary's kozo paper thin, there is no equivalent of that. The resolution, dmax, and color gamut is in a class all its own. Especially since it is also so thin that it can easily be used as both a transparency medium backlit as well as a regular portfolio print. It is astonishing. I've used both the Awagami and Gary's product side by side with the same image and although both were nice , Gary's thin kozo is much more photographic. Actually some people might prefer a little more softness of traditional kozo, but my feeling was you can always reduce gamut, contrast, and resolution of your file if you want. The paper Gary created is I believe 20% cotton and 80% kozo. The Awagami kozo thick is 100% mulberry.
It's a moot point now as Awagami and Hiromi are what we have left.
John
Would this be a suitable substitute: https://www.moabpaper.com/moenkopi-washi/ ??
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The Harmon Warmtone Baryta was never a popular paper. Both it and the regular Harmon Baryta scratched and jammed horribly in all of our printers due to the extreme curling of both rolls and sheets. I would average one damaged print for every two I made. Besides that, Harmon was bought out by Hahnemühle. I don't even know why Hah is making the regular high gloss baryta again. I don't think it is going to sell for the same reason it didn't do well before.
As to the Epson Kozo Thin, they never even gave it a chance. They didn't promote it, other than some utube videos that no one I know even saw. And it was never released in North America. It's like they wanted it to fail from the beginning. Awagami has been making great consistently make kozo and various kozo blends for inkjet for 10 years and I use it all the time. Hiromi in LA also has some great Asian papers to choose from and their coating has gotten much better last time I tried it.
Hahnemühle has been super consistent with all their major fine art papers too numerous to mention. They are actually selling more fine art media of high quality than I have time to even test. Canson after they were sold to Legion, is having problems with Rag Photographique but maybe that is temporary. The Platine is fine.
We've got a wide variety of smaller companies trying to grab market share as well, such as Red River, Breathing Color, Lexjet, innova, Moab, Ilford inkjet, etc, . And you've got the big printer companies Canon, HP, and Epson selling rebranded Canson and other good stuff. I choose Hahnemuhle for the most part because almost all of their media not only is always available but I never see any changes. Their quality control is superb over the 16 years I've used it.
John
Harman FB Gloss Baryta (now produced by Hahnemuhle) is one of my favorite papers. I never experienced the level of problems you did with the paper. If they discontinue it, I hope someone else picks it up as there is no other paper like it - it is gorgeous paper.
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You use it in rolls? I never had a single roll that didn't jam in my Epson, Canon, and HP printers. I've used dozens of brands and surfaces of media and nothing scratched as easily as that. I quit using it completely about 3 years ago. The problems with that media has been well documented online for years. Lots of us reluctantly had to stop using it.
When I gave up on the rolls and bought 17x22 sheets, it cured like mad too and scratched. About three months ago I bought one of the last boxes of the Harmon Warmtone for a body of split toned work I wanted to reprint from 10 years ago - cool inks on warm paper. I thought I'd give it one last shot for old times sake. The prints were fantastic, but yes, one out of every three prints scratched and even after flattening them in a dry mount press I couldn't get them to stay flat.
The Hahnemühle rep left me a sample print of their new version and it appears to be the same as the old Harmon bright white version or super close to it. But my sample now pinned to the bulliten board still has that extreme curl to it.
I have to say I was most reluctant to give up on that Harmon Baryta. I have big prints in galleries and collectors homes done on it and they looked superb. I have to say the neutral and warm monochrome prints I did with it absolutely came the closest to passing as Ilford silver prints than anything I have used. . I'm not really into trying to duplicate the look of a silver print as the year is 2018 , and I moved on 20 years ago, but if you were wanting that appearance the Harmon sprayed with Hahnemühle spray or using the Hpz3200 and their gloss enhancer made it possible.
Harman FB Gloss Baryta (now produced by Hahnemuhle) is one of my favorite papers. I never experienced the level of problems you did with the paper. If they discontinue it, I hope someone else picks it up as there is no other paper like it - it is gorgeous paper.
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One trick I use with Harman Gloss Baryta is to rotate the sheet 90 degrees so that the curl happens top down instead of left to right. I never had a scratched print or a head strike when doing this. Of course this won't help with rolls or if the paper is too big to fit the printer horizontally...
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You use it in rolls? I never had a single roll that didn't jam in my Epson, Canon, and HP printers. I've used dozens of brands and surfaces of media and nothing scratched as easily as that. I quit using it completely about 3 years ago. The problems with that media has been well documented online for years. Lots of us reluctantly had to stop using it.
When I gave up on the rolls and bought 17x22 sheets, it cured like mad too and scratched. About three months ago I bought one of the last boxes of the Harmon Warmtone for a body of split toned work I wanted to reprint from 10 years ago - cool inks on warm paper. I thought I'd give it one last shot for old times sake. The prints were fantastic, but yes, one out of every three prints scratched and even after flattening them in a dry mount press I couldn't get them to stay flat.
The Hahnemühle rep left me a sample print of their new version and it appears to be the same as the old Harmon bright white version or super close to it. But my sample now pinned to the bulliten board still has that extreme curl to it.
I have to say I was most reluctant to give up on that Harmon Baryta. I have big prints in galleries and collectors homes done on it and they looked superb. I have to say the neutral and warm monochrome prints I did with it absolutely came the closest to passing as Ilford silver prints than anything I have used. . I'm not really into trying to duplicate the look of a silver print as the year is 2018 , and I moved on 20 years ago, but if you were wanting that appearance the Harmon sprayed with Hahnemühle spray or using the Hpz3200 and their gloss enhancer made it possible.
No rolls - sheets only. I can get the curl out of sheets of it. I have never had a problem with scratches. I have it dry mounted so it doesn't curl later on my clients and the framer has never scratched a print either. It may be documented online and I understand that is your experience. But it hasn't been my experience.
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Thanks to Brian's lead, I have total of 8x coming my way (*bye bye $$$*). Reminds me of when Kodak announced EOL on Dye Transfer materials that Ctein took a second mortgage on his house to stock up on supplies which lasted him 20 years. This is not quite that expensive, but still....