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Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Kevin Raber on January 19, 2017, 04:05:00 pm

Title: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 19, 2017, 04:05:00 pm
I just published the Leica M10 review. Head over to the homepage.  It's quite a nice camera. It was a lot of fun shooting with a rangefinder camera again.  Just wish I could afford it.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: melgross on January 19, 2017, 08:01:02 pm
There are several things that bother me. A very bad interface gives you two ways to do the same thing without tying them together. Cameras that allow changing shutter speeds, or ISO settings, with a mechanical dial, and in the menu, had better have a way of transferring these settings either way.

Because we WILL forget that we've changed the setting in the menu when we look at that dial, if they aren't somehow linked with a motor, or solenoid, the settings will be different. This is a major disaster! It's a 101 course level error in design.

So the question is whether they are linked somehow. I hope they are, or Leica will be getting a lot of missives from angry users.

The other thing is more mundane. But as in the M8, that large expanse of blank sheet metal on the top is really ugly. It's not a Leica thing. They should have gone back to the engraving if they couldn't find a use for the surface. So, I thought the M8 was in first place for the worst looking camera top, until the new
Hassleblad came out, because that looks cheap. But this has tied it.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 20, 2017, 05:09:02 am
It's pretty in pictures, but I have to agree about the look of that top plate, especially at the left: those sharp angles next to the ISO wheel needed chamferring to a greater degree than they appear to have had.

That aside, I'm sure I'm prepared to salivate!

http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/camera/styled-56/

for an alternative take.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 20, 2017, 08:51:15 am
Rob, agreed, that top plate isn't the fairest of them all.

Now, what's that old adage about mantle piece and fire?

;-)

Keith,

Mantlepieces: when I had one, I used to lean against it with my hands as I tried to heat my nuts in defense against Scottish winters. Central heating put an end to that particular thrill, but don't underestimate the value of attractive mantlepieces! Having said that, once the CH was installed, pretty mantlepiece or not, I decided to wall in the fireplaces downstairs with panelling, and I must say, it did end up looking rather grand. I suppose I must thank those grim years as a mech.eng. apprentice for the skill. Wood is as nothing when you've been working with steel!

Here is Spain, there is a log/burner stove with a sort of hood that forms a nice shape, and hides the steel pipe leading up and through it to release the fumes to the sky. The ventilation tiles on the sides at the top of the hood let the air heated by the exhaust pipe gather and sally forth into the room...  I never lean against that hood, however, as it's painted, and I would end up having to paint and paint... but on the other hand, my wife would often stand in front of the stove and lift the back of her skirt the better to heat herself. As I never wore skirts, and especially not kilts with the danger of large pins etc. I have, myself, ever been denied that joy, which I'm assured was considerable.

Further on the matter of skirts: when I was buying Rusty - you may remember snaps of him - I got pissed off because the local Ford dealership failed to deliver on time, despite the car existing (I'd seen the damned thing in the distributor's huge garage) twenty miles away, so I pulled a tantrum and marched into the showroom and cancelled. They were, I discovered, looking after the interests of car-hire firms ahead of mine; you couldn't make it up!

Anyway, that afternoon, the doorbell rang and I opened it to a guy in a suit, who turned out to be head of sales at the distributors. He offered to deliver the car, if I'd reconsider, the following day. I was not wearing a suit myself, in fact I was wearing a sarong and not even a T-shirt. I felt a little bit undermined by my sartorial choice for the postprandial period, and so felt I had no option but to accept his offer. Oh well, I wanted that car anyway...

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: SCFrieze3 on January 20, 2017, 10:00:21 am
Leicas and Hasseblads.  The appeal is, and always has been, very strong for this enthusiast/semi  professional.  Buying a ford whilst wearing a surong not so much...  tho' I do enjoy Scotland quite a lot.  Oh to have the money to indulge the equipment lusts.  But that isn't the life lot of the country parson.   ;) :)
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: SCFrieze3 on January 20, 2017, 10:40:35 am
Now, Rob, there's an image that'll be forever imprinted on my mind!

;-)

I've been trying not to go there.... 
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: albertknappmd on January 20, 2017, 01:24:55 pm
I have the MP 240 and love it.. From what I have heard, the M10 is a step up and I will road test it first and then probably buy it. I agree that a 30MP sensor would have been awesome as the Leica lenses are the best in the world.. Period..
Albert  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Telecaster on January 20, 2017, 03:20:55 pm
It's pretty in pictures, but I have to agree about the look of that top plate…

I've thought about taking a pic of my M2's top plate, replacing the 2 in M2 with an 8.2, and turning the pic into overlay stickers for both my M8.2s. For awhile the black one had a Hello Kitty sticker on it.  :D

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 20, 2017, 04:52:39 pm
Leicas and Hasseblads.  The appeal is, and always has been, very strong for this enthusiast/semi  professional.  Buying a ford whilst wearing a surong not so much...  tho' I do enjoy Scotland quite a lot.  Oh to have the money to indulge the equipment lusts.  But that isn't the life lot of the country parson.   ;) :)


Whoa there! I wouldn't wear a sarong in Scotland; I speak of pre-Arctic Mallorca!

I fact, I was so annihilated by that David v. Goliath sartorial encounter that I've never worn one since. You see, I had no available slingshot beyond a refusal. But I wanted the car anyway, as I wrote...

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: athegn on January 20, 2017, 05:37:17 pm
Rob

Reminds of a shoot for a friend. He wanted an image of himself posing as David, for his wife. We used his underpants as the slingshot!

Good job it was taken on my first digital camera; Canon Powershot Pro 70, so low resolution.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: LMBSGV on January 20, 2017, 07:25:26 pm
Thanks for the review. As an M262 user, I would have appreciated a comparison to the M240 and M262, the most recent Leica M digitals before the M10. Also, a comparison with the Leica SL. I can read and compare specs, but I am curious about the handling and image quality between the four of them.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: budjames on January 22, 2017, 04:52:18 am
I've been into photography since high school, 43+ years (eek). I have always appreciated Leica and wanted to own one, but, like many, I could not afford them, so I went with Canon SLRs, then DSLRs for decades.

Three years ago, I sold off my pro Canon DSLR gear and moved to Fuji-X cameras and XF lens. I could not be happier, especially with my X-Pro2 and X-T2 bodies and assorted Fuji XF prime lenses.

That said, I'm intrigued by the new M10, but, wow, is it expensive.

Ken, since you are also a Fuji user, is the Leica really worth the cost difference, other than the bragging rights of owning a Leica?

Nice review, BTW.

Regards,
Bud James

www.budjames.photography
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 22, 2017, 05:27:51 am
Haven't a clue who Ken is but I can tell you the two systems are very different. One is rangefinder based, one isn't, one is full frame one isn't, one is manual focus only, one isn't...

As for bragging rights, well, if you're the kind of guy who get's his rocks off on that kind of thing then may I suggest penis enhancement?


As former Hassy 500 Series owners, with more than one version at a time, maybe we both need penis reductions?

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on January 22, 2017, 04:49:14 pm
Is the sensor on the M10 different than the sensor on the Leica M (Typ 262) ?
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: algrove on January 23, 2017, 10:02:40 am
Never mind. It should great terrific with that old 40 Summicron you still have. Ditch the old SL.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Manoli on January 23, 2017, 10:12:20 am
Is the sensor on the M10 different than the sensor on the Leica M (Typ 262) ?

It's new. A Maestro processor allied to a new sensor specifically designed for the M10 - not the same as the 24MP one in the Leica Q or SL.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on January 23, 2017, 10:17:43 am
It's new. A Maestro processor allied to a new sensor specifically designed for the M10 - not the same as the 24MP one in the Leica Q or SL.

Thank you that answers my question.  I think Kevin does mention that the sensor is new in his review.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on January 23, 2017, 10:21:35 am
Never mind. It should great terrific with that old 40 Summicron you still have. Ditch the old SL.

I still have it.  I also have a 35mm Summicron F2 still mounted on an M7.  Time to get a digital M to use it again :-)
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: donbga on January 23, 2017, 11:03:03 am

Anyway, that afternoon, the doorbell rang and I opened it to a guy in a suit, who turned out to be head of sales at the distributors. He offered to deliver the car, if I'd reconsider, the following day. I was not wearing a suit myself, in fact I was wearing a sarong and not even a T-shirt. I felt a little bit undermined by my sartorial choice for the postprandial period, and so felt I had no option but to accept his offer. Oh well, I wanted that car anyway...

Rob

Sounds like in the end you liked the purchasing experience discovering it didn't suck, reminiscent of this:

That didn't suck! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEKNWES2_4k)

Don Bryant
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: BAB on January 23, 2017, 02:01:20 pm
It might be worth a wait before jumping into the new M11 because Leica is most likely going to release more new products shortly...I have no knowledge of specific models but new products are confirmed for 2017.
I recently just disposed of all my M gear I was on board with the M system since the M8 and before that with the film versions. The cameras and lenses are workable especially the M240 with new tricked out software, image quality more the look of the file is hard to beat or get use to the look of other manufactures files compared to the Leica ones. BUT personally I got fed up with the rangefinder, so now after years of squinting they release a bigger finder BRAVO a step in the correct direction. Try using live view without a tilting screen in the street, try using the EVF on the M240 to obtain focus at 2M when someone is walking towards you. If the M shot at 10 FPS you could have a better chance. That's just my opinion.
I would rebuy a small footprint system from Leica when some of my MUST HAVE needs are met.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 23, 2017, 03:44:07 pm
You sound like my wife!

;-)

I don't think you checked that before you posted... ? AFAIK we are talking about two of them, not three. Please tell me I'm not mistaken.

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 23, 2017, 04:08:14 pm
Sounds like in the end you liked the purchasing experience discovering it didn't suck, reminiscent of this:

That didn't suck! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEKNWES2_4k)

Don Bryant


Well, I was convinced it didn't suck before I order it - Ford Escort XRi - it was just that I objected to getting effed about because I was one customer (repeat one) disappointed (after a promise of delivery date) and dumped at the back of the queue [à la Obama concept :-) ] because I wasn't buying a fleet of them that week... However, it turned out to be a very different thing to the predecessor, the XR3i, which was fun to use (except for heavy parking) whereas the XRi turned out to be very much softer, but faster in a straight line. Very tail-happy on narrow, wet roads. However, from that one to the current Fiesta, they have become ever more difficult to park, especially if you have to do it alongside a kerb by reversing into a short gap between cars: the shape of the rear side window rises and you lose all sense of location. I miss the 70s cars where you always knew where the corners were!

But it gave me some happy years, and as with the one before it, I felt quite sad to see it go. But after twelve or thirteen years, and a lot of money going on repainting bits of it for the final four yaers or so...

I enjoyed that video; looked like a lot of fun to make. Thank you for the link.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: algrove on January 23, 2017, 06:47:50 pm
I still have it.  I also have a 35mm Summicron F2 still mounted on an M7.  Time to get a digital M to use it again :-)
Alain
If you end up with a digital M, it might be worth sending your existing lenses off to DAG who can 6 bit code them for lens corrections, etc. in the M10 and CLA and adjust them for digital needs.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on January 23, 2017, 08:03:30 pm
Alain
If you end up with a digital M, it might be worth sending your existing lenses off to DAG who can 6 bit code them for lens corrections, etc. in the M10 and CLA and adjust them for digital needs.

Thanks for the tip.  I'll keep it in mind.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: ndevlin on January 27, 2017, 05:55:17 pm
despite their antiquated nature and eye-watering prices they give me more joy than any other camera I've ever owned.

This.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on January 28, 2017, 03:37:25 pm
There's actually a lot of value in having an efficient manual focus camera such as the Leica. Right now for such situations I use a Fuji X100s and in low light, indoors or at night events, autofocus doesn't have enough contrast or light to focus quickly, if at all, and the alternate manual focus option just isn't practical.  Leica manual focusing on the other hand is quick and effective.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: airfang on January 29, 2017, 03:53:26 am
There's actually a lot of value in having an efficient manual focus camera such as the Leica. Right now for such situations I use a Fuji X100s and in low light, indoors or at night events, autofocus doesn't have enough contrast or light to focus quickly, if at all, and the alternate manual focus option just isn't practical.  Leica manual focusing on the other hand is quick and effective.

In those situations usually it is quite hard to focus via the rangefinder as well.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 29, 2017, 04:19:16 am
Can't say I remember any focussing problems with af and low light with either my D200 or D700. Where I have found difficulty with af is in fairly normal daylight, when I'm trying to decide between which part of an image I want sharp in situations where there are lots of reflections, like shooting into a shop window. In a case such a that, only the human mind can call the shot and decide which level of the image is important. So yes, manual focus still has an important rôle to play, but I don't have the current experience to know how well a Leica focussing system tackles that sort of situation, which is not an everyday one.

What it does imply, though, is that a proper slr screen for manual focussing is long overdue in digital cameras! I am led to believe that af is not read off the viewing screen anyway, but from a smaller, sub-mirror in the box. If so, then why would the texture of the main screen have to be compromised as it is?

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 29, 2017, 09:41:22 am
Keith,

Ah, but: in that image you are working at what appears to be a well stopped-down aperture which hides a multitude of focussing mistakes.

I have been tending to work either wide open or about a stop down at best; not that it's any better a way or not, just that I need to differentiate planes for what I'm trying to achieve these days. So due to that, which as you know means pretty much WYS(on the screen)IWYG because af on a dslr works at wide open - as does manual focussing unless you want to stop down to the working aperture just to check - which on tiny cameras screens ain't that brilliant either (no, not going to cry over the number 500 right now!), I found that using manual in those situations was often the best way open to me (not counting the eye probems that have hit me). However, a glitch still remains because a 50mm at f2 or f1.8 on 135 format cameras, used at the distance it has to be in order to cover an area of what - six feet-wide window fame? is going to have too much DOF for my intention, especially when the reflected plane I want crisp is of something perhaps a few feet behind me... I need a super-fast which I ain't got!

I wonder how a rangefinder mechanism works out what you want (in the case of both our intentions with these sorts of confused images); at best, I'd imagine it to have exactly the same decisions to make as any other system, with the same problem of knowing what's key.

But as I've indicated before, the last time I touched a Leica rangefinder camera was '65 when my last boss had one (and the only other Leica I've held was an R6 many years later), and so I'm not at all qualified to comment on how a current Leica M might handle in reality.

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 29, 2017, 02:12:08 pm
Rob, I should add, this is of course just idle chat, if you really want to know if an M would suit then perhaps a trip to Barcelona would answer your questions and provide more of those shop window shots than you could shake a stick at.

There again, perhaps it's just safer not to know.

;-)


Too true!

;-)

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Sal_VE on January 30, 2017, 05:21:45 am
It seems like a small step up from the M (240) considering the price. What kills me thoug is the image quality generated by the review camera/lens combination:
1. outstanding true and natural colors, not the full saturated overkilled of other DSLR
2. Excellent definition and Perfect sharpness, not too much that usually shows in average lenses digitally super corrected
3. wonderful out of focus, maintains structure so that the different image planes are well separated but I still can understand what is the backgroud about.
I cannot find this level of subleties in other cameras/lens and, for me, this is all it matters, all I want for my best pics.
It does have its limitation but you would not have a camera this size and quality with.... autofocus, Viewfinder, image stabilization.....
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 30, 2017, 07:18:47 am
It seems like a small step up from the M (240) considering the price. What kills me thoug is the image quality generated by the review camera/lens combination:
1. outstanding true and natural colors, not the full saturated overkilled of other DSLR
2. Excellent definition and Perfect sharpness, not too much that usually shows in average lenses digitally super corrected
3. wonderful out of focus, maintains structure so that the different image planes are well separated but I still can understand what is the backgroud about.
I cannot find this level of subleties in other cameras/lens and, for me, this is all it matters, all I want for my best pics.
It does have its limitation but you would not have a camera this size and quality with.... autofocus, Viewfinder, image stabilization.....


An intriguing post, Sal.

I was wondering if you could show me the source for your point No.1? I'm probably missing some information here, but I don't quite grasp how that might have been measured objectively.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 30, 2017, 08:44:57 am
I can only imagine Sal is referring to his subjective view of in camera processed jpegs???

;-)

Rob

P.S.

I went for an eye test this morning, and the young lady made me feel quite young again. Obviously, she must be rather good at her job.

Anyway that aside, I had made a picture (attached) of the basic problem that I encountered wearing the current set, and she asked me who had made the illustration for me. (She is not only able to see the dashing young man-about-town behind the disguise, but also the artist deeply hidden a few layers further in.)

I was going to tell her that the camera makes great pictures, is a wonderful artist in its own right, but thought that her PhD might not actually be relevant to the conversation, so I desisted, flashed another beguiling smile her way, flushed with pleasure, and admitted guilt (for the artwork shown to her - gotta be careful in this litigious world. My granddaughter told me that).

Seems the prescription has changed rather a lot in the past couple of years, but I'm good for my age. Which tells me not a lot.

(http://www.roma57.com/uploads/4/2/8/7/4287956/d-3023_orig.jpg)
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Telecaster on January 30, 2017, 04:34:58 pm
I too recently had a thorough eye exam. Got a huge kick out of seeing the colorful insides of my eyeballs. Modern medical imaging tech is so fab! Also got a clean bill of (eye) health and a minor prescription change.

Without specs my zone of focus is ~6" in front of my face, ± a small fraction.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on January 30, 2017, 05:52:32 pm
It's ironic, really.

When I was about forty-four I realised that I was having difficulty getting the enlarger focussed, so I had a pair of specs made and that was that. Shorty afterwards, I decided to give up all ideas about continuing darkroom work because of the realities of water on this island and, added to that, the fact that my work had become 100% transparencies. So apart from reading the Sunday Times now and then - when I could prise it away from my wife - those glasses remained in their case.

However, at the other end of the visual scale, my distance vision appears to have been somewhat extraordinary at that time. Friends of ours owned a penthouse on the Paseo Maritimo in Palma, and I remember sitting out on the roof terrace they had, looking at some ships at anchor in the Bay of Palma. I happened to remark about the company insignia on the funnel of one of them, and our friends' son called me out on it. He suggested that I knew something about that ship already, or it would have been impossible for me to read the stuff on the funnel: far too far away. That annoyed me a little bit, but I told him nope, never seen the thing in my life before, and that as he knew perfectly well, I didn't live in Palma. Anyway, he went indoors and returned with binoculars, and yes, I had been right. Whether his own vision was impaired or not, I don't know. Obviously, to me I thought seeing what I saw was normal.

Anyway, years later I started to experience difficulty focussing the digital Nikon, and the problem was that if I could nail focus rapidly, then I was okay, but if not, then I'd hunt focus so long that I could never be sure where the hell the point of maximum crispness really lay. I had no af lenses in those days. A few years later, I mentioned this to the doc. whilst there on another matter, and he set me up for an appointment at the local hospital. I ended up being diagnosed with glaucoma, and the result has been that my early distance abilty has vanished but I can now read the tiniest print without any problems whatsoever. Talk about reversal development! If there's a positve, it's that I no longer need specs to use the computer.

Rob

Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: dempski on February 01, 2017, 10:44:10 am
On first impression, the M10 looks like an overall improvement to the M240, especially for normal focal length street, travel, and low-light photography.  But unfortunately, the EVF feature I use most has been omitted, the electronic level tool.  Among my many projects are landscapes using wide and ultra-wide lenses, and this tool is critical for ease of use, maintaining framing integrity, and minimizing distortion.  I leave it on all the time when using the M240 and EVF.  Street shooters in urban environments may get by with a grid because of the availability of vertical and horizontal lines, but in the natural world these are not always readily available.

I’m worried that this is a signal that Leica feels ultra-wide photography belongs elsewhere, and are withdrawing underlying support for its lenses on the M platform.   Why else give us access to a better EVF, but withhold the tools we want the EVF for?  M ultra-wide lenses work well on the SL, but that camera is hardly an ideal travel camera, being larger, heavier, and intimidating when photographing people.

I’ve asked Leica if the tilt-meter hardware is onboard, but they have not responded.  Perhaps Kevin could use his contacts and find out for all of us??
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on February 01, 2017, 02:35:20 pm
On first impression, the M10 looks like an overall improvement to the M240, especially for normal focal length street, travel, and low-light photography.  But unfortunately, the EVF feature I use most has been omitted, the electronic level tool.  Among my many projects are landscapes using wide and ultra-wide lenses, and this tool is critical for ease of use, maintaining framing integrity, and minimizing distortion.  I leave it on all the time when using the M240 and EVF.  Street shooters in urban environments may get by with a grid because of the availability of vertical and horizontal lines, but in the natural world these are not always readily available.

I’m worried that this is a signal that Leica feels ultra-wide photography belongs elsewhere, and are withdrawing underlying support for its lenses on the M platform.   Why else give us access to a better EVF, but withhold the tools we want the EVF for?  M ultra-wide lenses work well on the SL, but that camera is hardly an ideal travel camera, being larger, heavier, and intimidating when photographing people.

I’ve asked Leica if the tilt-meter hardware is onboard, but they have not responded.  Perhaps Kevin could use his contacts and find out for all of us??

It could simply be that for that specific camera they have other plans; perhaps as they are now a multi-model company they will make different strokes for those different sorts of folks. Good idea: if you are into the system and have the money for the lenses etc, then specialised bodies make sense, too. I don't imagine anyone serious about their work within that price bracket lives by one body alone!

If they have ironed out all their early glitches, then they are probably going to be very successful - I wish them well. Regardless of my personal doubts of the suitability of the sytem for myself, had I the free funds to risk, I would buy one just to find out.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Sal_VE on February 01, 2017, 04:06:25 pm
Rob,
I own a Sony 7RM2. I had a Nikon D800E and before a Canon 5D M2. None of them gave me the color and White balance fidelity that I get with my M240. Is it the lens or the the sensor, I don't know but the subtlety that I see in Leica's color is clear. The color is less saturated and the transition is more gradual. Of course I have compared them side by side with raw pics. Look at skin tones of raw files processed with C1. The difference is subtle but is there. I believe it depends in part from the lens and in part from the curve applied to the raw data.
If you like puchy pics with lots of saturated colors than Sony, Nikon and Canon are better. As I grow older I start to appreciate small differences, gradual tones. Sharp detail and strong contrast are for reprduction. Soft focus and nuance are for artitistic pleasure. Whenever time allows I go back to shooting medium format film where I find the tonality we have lost with digital.
It is a personal view of course. I do not expect other to agree. But would it be a boring world if we all thoght the same?
May I suggest the book "Naturalistic photography" written by P.H Emerson in 1899? Art is not in the details but in the picture as a Whole.
Sal
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on February 01, 2017, 04:15:44 pm
Rob,
I own a Sony 7RM2. I had a Nikon D800E and before a Canon 5D M2. None of them gave me the color and White balance fidelity that I get with my M240. Is it the lens or the the sensor, I don't know but the subtlety that I see in Leica's color is clear. The color is less saturated and the transition is more gradual. Of course I have compared them side by side with raw pics. Look at skin tones of raw files processed with C1. The difference is subtle but is there. I believe it depends in part from the lens and in part from the curve applied to the raw data.
If you like puchy pics with lots of saturated colors than Sony, Nikon and Canon are better. As I grow older I start to appreciate small differences, gradual tones. Sharp detail and strong contrast are for reprduction. Soft focus and nuance are for artitistic pleasure. Whenever time allows I go back to shooting medium format film where I find the tonality we have lost with digital.
It is a personal view of course. I do not expect other to agree. But would it be a boring world if we all thoght the same?
May I suggest the book "Naturalistic photography" written by P.H Emerson in 1899? Art is not in the details but in the picture as a Whole.
Sal


If you were back in film days, you could have done what I did with a friend: he shot Pentax and I shot Nikon, both of us on half-a-roll of the same film. That way, processing was identical as was film batch. Using the same target, we were able to compare quite well.

I did have to make some prints from Leica-shot transparencies, and I thought the film colours were very attractive.

However, digital introduces so many variables, starting right at the beginning with basic camera set-up right through processing, that I think comparisons can be pretty meaningless.

The trick is to love what you have.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: mbaginy on February 02, 2017, 02:20:34 am
The trick is to love what you have.

Rob C
And that is very cost effective.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Sal_VE on February 02, 2017, 03:33:01 am
I agree that is not possible to remove all variables. There will Always be differences between the 2 test. Although I will post two samples of the same shot, with the following:
- Sony 7Mr2 + adapter+ 50 summicron M
- Leica M240, same lens
same aperture, same exposure. Both raw and no curve applied (C1 linear curve)
Beside the obvious difference in file size, there is a slight difference in tonal rendering along the Whole scale of darks trough highlights. This difference is reflected in the color rendering.
Is it dynamic range? Perhaps.
The difference is even stronger using sony's lens. But here I add another variable
As soon as I can locate those file in my Archives they'll be posted for your evaluation.
As you say, I'm very happy with my Leica results. Happier with film, for what is my pictorial ideal.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on February 02, 2017, 06:28:42 am
I agree that is not possible to remove all variables. There will Always be differences between the 2 test. Although I will post two samples of the same shot, with the following:
- Sony 7Mr2 + adapter+ 50 summicron M
- Leica M240, same lens
same aperture, same exposure. Both raw and no curve applied (C1 linear curve)
Beside the obvious difference in file size, there is a slight difference in tonal rendering along the Whole scale of darks trough highlights. This difference is reflected in the color rendering.
Is it dynamic range? Perhaps.
The difference is even stronger using sony's lens. But here I add another variable
As soon as I can locate those file in my Archives they'll be posted for your evaluation.
As you say, I'm very happy with my Leica results. Happier with film, for what is my pictorial ideal.


Re film, I agree wholeheartedly. But, I simply don't want to go back to the time-lag that the process inevitably involves, and the logistics here in the Med are too annoying to be worth the effort.

Rob
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on February 02, 2017, 07:14:35 pm
What I both like with Leica is that the M series was able to move from film to digital capture with no major modifications of the camera except that capture is now digital instead of film.  It's a classy transition that brings users the advantages of digital capture without losing the characteristics that made Leica Ms popular and succesful.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 02, 2017, 07:23:26 pm
What I both like with Leica is that the M series was able to move from film to digital capture with no major modifications of the camera except that capture is now digital instead of film.  It's a classy transition that brings users the advantages of digital capture without losing the characteristics that made Leica Ms popular and succesful.

True, but can the same not be said of DSLRs and MF cameras too?

- I use my D810 the same way I used to use my F100
- There is basically no difference between an Hassy H1 and a H6D-100c
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on February 02, 2017, 07:30:24 pm
True, but can the same not be said of DSLRs and MF cameras too?

- I use my D810 the same way I used to use my F100
- There is basically no difference between an Hassy H1 and a H6D-100c
- ...

Cheers,
Bernard

I have no experience with these two cameras so I'll take your word for it.  The main difference with the Leica M is how long it has been around, being the first camera to have made use of 35mm film.  For me the fact that Leica Ms still don't have autofocus is the most remarkable aspect.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 02, 2017, 10:19:03 pm
I have no experience with these two cameras so I'll take your word for it.  The main difference with the Leica M is how long it has been around, being the first camera to have made use of 35mm film.  For me the fact that Leica Ms still don't have autofocus is the most remarkable aspect.

I find those very hard to focus accurately, but the M is indeed a nice option.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: adias on February 02, 2017, 10:35:57 pm
... the Leica M  ... being the first camera to have made use of 35mm film. 

I do not think Leica was the first manufacturer of 35mm cameras - LINK (http://corsopolaris.net/supercameras/early/early_135.html).
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on February 02, 2017, 11:41:56 pm
I do not think Leica was the first manufacturer of 35mm cameras - LINK (http://corsopolaris.net/supercameras/early/early_135.html).

Thanks for the history lesson.  I had no idea.  However, none had the impact of the Leica, certainly not on me since I had never heard of them.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on February 03, 2017, 03:40:37 am
Thanks for the history lesson.  I had no idea.  However, none had the impact of the Leica, certainly not on me since I had never heard of them.


I had no idea either; just goes to show the value of a powerful trumpet! (No pun intended - at first.)

Advertise or tell a fib long enough and the world believes it. Wish I'd known that when I was younger...

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Telecaster on February 03, 2017, 04:16:53 pm
Lots of "firsts" are actually just commercially successful firsts. Which is nothing to sneer at. Leo Fender didn't invent the solidbody electric guitar…he just designed & built the first one that really worked well. And with the help of Fender Sales & its first-class promotional skills that guitar caught on with musicians. Et voilà!

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: adias on February 03, 2017, 10:03:08 pm
I simply checked the statement as I recalled other manufacturers had 35mm cameras before Leitz. But boy, did I ruffle a few feathers, sensitivities, or biases. :)
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on February 04, 2017, 03:57:34 am
I simply checked the statement as I recalled other manufacturers had 35mm cameras before Leitz. But boy, did I ruffle a few feathers, sensitivities, or biases. :)


How so? All you did was show that there had been other stills users of cine film before the Leica was made. I would have considered your link as interesting, not at all combative or negative, so no ruffled feathers - at least as far as I can see.

Of course, whether or not your position had been to cause upset is another matter, which only you will know.

As it stands, thank you for the link which I found interesting.

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: alainbriot on February 05, 2017, 12:14:08 pm
I simply checked the statement as I recalled other manufacturers had 35mm cameras before Leitz. But boy, did I ruffle a few feathers, sensitivities, or biases. :)

It certainly did not ruffle my feathers as you put it.  I sell art you know ;-) If this was all it takes to ruffle me out I'd be out of business!
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: roscoetuff on February 18, 2017, 07:55:12 am
Well.... I don't second guess. I love the idea that Leica is actually listening to their base and anticipate this will lead to good things. I also like they didn't RAISE the  price into the stratosphere. I'd love to have one. This is the first digital Leica where the specs seem to hit all the right spots. Maybe they missed on the megapixels in sticking at 24, but even then... as a camera that shoots in their defined style, I'm sure they'll be forgiven.

For my part, the price point from the outside - with no M mount lenses is just too high. I couldn't even swing for an old digital Leica because "why buy a cheap VW when you really want a Porsche?" If you're going to want to buy that Porsche, the VW just raises the price. So I bought a Leica M4-2 as a platform to shoot B&W and gather a few M-mount lenses figuring if I didn't like it, the exit wouldn't cost much either. I'm very happy with my Zeiss ZM lenses by the way, and not feeling this was a mistake at all. Now if the M10 prices will just suddenly come into range, it's a much smaller step.

Great review! Great pics as always.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: donbga on February 18, 2017, 09:46:32 am
Well.... I don't second guess. I love the idea that Leica is actually listening to their base and anticipate this will lead to good things. I also like they didn't RAISE the  price into the stratosphere. I'd love to have one. This is the first digital Leica where the specs seem to hit all the right spots. Maybe they missed on the megapixels in sticking at 24, but even then... as a camera that shoots in their defined style, I'm sure they'll be forgiven.

For my part, the price point from the outside - with no M mount lenses is just too high. I couldn't even swing for an old digital Leica because "why buy a cheap VW when you really want a Porsche?" If you're going to want to buy that Porsche, the VW just raises the price. So I bought a Leica M4-2 as a platform to shoot B&W and gather a few M-mount lenses figuring if I didn't like it, the exit wouldn't cost much either. I'm very happy with my Zeiss ZM lenses by the way, and not feeling this was a mistake at all. Now if the M10 prices will just suddenly come into range, it's a much smaller step.

Great review! Great pics as always.

I'll keep my Zeiss Ikon ZM thank you! I've always wanted that Red-Dot feeling but my wallet always pushed back.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Rob C on February 18, 2017, 11:13:41 am
I'll keep my Zeiss Ikon ZM thank you! I've always wanted that Red-Dot feeling but my wallet always pushed back.


Thank your wallet, then.

True stealth bombers hide red dots and adopt camouflage. Your wallet knows you don't need that camera, and that it would only get you into trouble.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: budjames on October 15, 2017, 03:38:06 am
Kevin,

I know that you are Fuji X user like myself. I was curious if you found the DNG files from the M10/Summilux combination containing more detail on dynamic range than the RAF files from the Fuji XT2?

Thanks for a nice review.

www.budjames.photography
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Kevin Raber on October 15, 2017, 01:01:03 pm
Bud, Both files are really good.  I process my Fuji files in Capture One and I'm able to really nice shadow detail out of them.  The M10 files are worked through Lightroom.  They are DNG.  While I got good shadow detail in LR Shadow recovery I still think C1 may be a bit more refined in that area.  You won't be disappointed with the M10 files.  they have a look that makes them unique and quite nice.  Kind of vague I know. But I did not do a side by side to look at these two different files.  Borrow an M10 from one of the Leica stores and give it a try.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: budjames on October 17, 2017, 06:56:32 am
Kevin,

I set aside all sensibilities and fiscal responsibility and ordered the Leica M10 along with the Summicron 35mm f2 and Summilux 50mm f1.4 lenses and the Fuji Leica M adapter from B&H Photo last week.  The Summilux lens and Fuji adapter shipped and I should receive these today. The M10 and Summicron are on backorder with no information as to when these will ship.

I have lusted for Leica since high school (I graduated in 1973). I never could justify the cost, but now finances are good and I just feel that I must own one to check off another box on my bucket list. Oh, I am so spoiled!

I was curious if you have any experience using Leica glass on a Fuji X body? If so, I am interested in hearing your comments.

Thanks again for a great review.

Regards,
Bud James

www.budjames.photography
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Kevin Raber on October 17, 2017, 07:29:29 am
Bud, you can't go wrong - period.  There is nothing like Leica Glass, especially M.  I have been shooting the last few weeks with the M10, TL2 and SL. I will make a small Facebook live video on the TL2 and SL tonight.  I have just spent a week with Leica and we have quite a bit of Leica content that will start to appear on LuLa in November.  Poos Chris is editing his fingers off.  The M10 is a different camera to shoot with.  You need to realize that and embrace it.  Then the fun begins.  I am not sure I'd shoot on the Fuji.  The M10 is the same MP and delivers its own file which will soon see is nice and buttery and has its own charm.  So, I never M glass on the Fuji.  I did shoot M glass on the Leica SL and it was fun.  A Little lens on a big camera. My recommendation is to embrace the m10 and enjoy the method of shooting with it.  The Fuji glass is so good on its own and works so well with the Fuji I wouldn't even cross shoot them. 

Have fun, enjoy slowing down a bit.  I'll share what I was told by the gentleman that designs Leica glass.  Shoot wide open.  Stop down to only get the DOF you need for your shot.  Leica glass is meant to be shot wide open.  The true magic of the glass comes out when you do that.

Good luck.  Keep me posted.  If you need any help PM me.
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Telecaster on October 17, 2017, 03:57:57 pm
I used various M & LTM lenses on an X-E1 for awhile in 2013. Results were fine with everything 50mm and longer but kinda mediocre with wider focal lengths due to astigmatism caused by the lenses interacting with the sensor’s filter stack. This wasn’t as bad as seen with Sony’s A7/9x cameras but still… I’d agree with Kevin’s “pair Fuji cameras with X-mount lenses” recommendation.

I have the current Leica 50mm Summilux & (non-APO) Summicron, all the f/2.4 Summarits except the 50 and a bunch of older stuff too. Also the Zeiss ZM 35/1.4 Distagon. As Kevin says the current lenses are super duper wide open.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: JV on October 18, 2017, 09:30:20 pm
I will make a small Facebook live video on the TL2 and SL tonight. 

Owning both I am very interested in your thoughts!
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: budjames on October 20, 2017, 06:58:49 am
Kevin,

Thank you for your replies. Greatly appreciated!

I own the Fuji XT2, XPro2 and X100F along with a bunch of Fuji XF lenses. I love the f2 "Fujicron" trilogy of lenses, which I own and use most of the time. I love the Fuji system after 40 years of shooting Canon FF pro gear.

This week, I shot a bunch of images with my XPro2 with the Fuji 50mm f2 and Leica Summilux 50mm f1.4 with Fuji M Adapter. The Fuji glass images blew away the Summilux/Adapter images in terms of overall sharpness, contrast and color fidelity. There was really no comparison. I sent back the Fuji M adapter to B&H Photo for a credit.

I'm keeping the Summilux 50mm lens for when I receive my M10 and Summicron 35mm f2. Unfortunately, B&H Photo and every other dealer, have no M10s in stock and have no idea when they will. I'm on  the list though.

I use CaptureOne Pro for all imaging processing as I gave up my Adobe Creative Cloud subscription about a year ago. I'm very happy with C1P although I do miss the Print module of LR. C1P's printing capabilities are workable but not as sophisticated as LR's.

I was very disappointed to learn that Leica M file metadata does not capture the f-stop. No matter what f-stop used to make the image, C1P and others programs report the f-stop as "f 1". This is really a bummer in today's world. Is there a fix for this?

Finally, are you attending the Photo Plus Expo in NYC later this month. I go to the show every year on Friday. If you are going to be there that day, I would love to buy you a coffee (or beer) and meet you personally.

Regards,
Bud James

www.budjames.photography
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Kevin Raber on October 20, 2017, 07:33:50 am
Bud, I’ll be in NYC from Tuesday till 1pm on Friday. Then it is home for the weekend before driving out to Utah.  I’d love to meet up.  I have a few short appointments on Friday but call me and I’ll find a place to meet and have a coffee.  3173797482. Same for anyone else that is coming to the show. 
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: Telecaster on October 20, 2017, 03:53:42 pm
This week, I shot a bunch of images with my XPro2 with the Fuji 50mm f2 and Leica Summilux 50mm f1.4 with Fuji M Adapter. The Fuji glass images blew away the Summilux/Adapter images in terms of overall sharpness, contrast and color fidelity. There was really no comparison. I sent back the Fuji M adapter to B&H Photo for a credit.

Coulda been an issue with the adapter…I found all my M & LTM 50mms worked really well on the X-E1 I had. But Fuji has done a great job for sure of tuning their lenses to their cameras and vice versa.

Quote
I was very disappointed to learn that Leica M file metadata does not capture the f-stop. No matter what f-stop used to make the image, C1P and others programs report the f-stop as "f 1". This is really a bummer in today's world. Is there a fix for this?

M lenses have no way to transmit aperture info as there’s no mechanical connection between the aperture diaphragm or adjustment ring and the camera. The M240, I think, tries to guess the aperture based on ISO and shutter speed but often gets it comically wrong. (This “feature” may’ve been nixed in the latest firmware release.) I guess Leica could allow folks to optionally add f-stop values in camera to their pics…

-Dave-
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: budjames on October 20, 2017, 10:00:01 pm
Dave,

Thanks for your reply.

Regards,
Bud James

www.budjames.photography
Title: Re: Leica M10 Review
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 21, 2017, 11:08:09 am
Hi,

Leica M does not physically transfer aperture settings to the camera. It can deduce aperture from measuring incident light on camera, but in many situations that information will be wrong.

The Leica M system was developed for film, it has limitations you need to live with.

Best regards
Erik

Kevin,

Thank you for your replies. Greatly appreciated!

I own the Fuji XT2, XPro2 and X100F along with a bunch of Fuji XF lenses. I love the f2 "Fujicron" trilogy of lenses, which I own and use most of the time. I love the Fuji system after 40 years of shooting Canon FF pro gear.

This week, I shot a bunch of images with my XPro2 with the Fuji 50mm f2 and Leica Summilux 50mm f1.4 with Fuji M Adapter. The Fuji glass images blew away the Summilux/Adapter images in terms of overall sharpness, contrast and color fidelity. There was really no comparison. I sent back the Fuji M adapter to B&H Photo for a credit.

I'm keeping the Summilux 50mm lens for when I receive my M10 and Summicron 35mm f2. Unfortunately, B&H Photo and every other dealer, have no M10s in stock and have no idea when they will. I'm on  the list though.

I use CaptureOne Pro for all imaging processing as I gave up my Adobe Creative Cloud subscription about a year ago. I'm very happy with C1P although I do miss the Print module of LR. C1P's printing capabilities are workable but not as sophisticated as LR's.

I was very disappointed to learn that Leica M file metadata does not capture the f-stop. No matter what f-stop used to make the image, C1P and others programs report the f-stop as "f 1". This is really a bummer in today's world. Is there a fix for this?

Finally, are you attending the Photo Plus Expo in NYC later this month. I go to the show every year on Friday. If you are going to be there that day, I would love to buy you a coffee (or beer) and meet you personally.

Regards,
Bud James

www.budjames.photography