Post by: Kevin Raber on January 04, 2017, 06:13:05 pm
Post by: JJon on January 04, 2017, 08:27:53 pm
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 04, 2017, 08:53:45 pm
With all due respect, I am a bit surprised to see you leak such information ahead of an official announcement from Hasselblad.
I am also a bit surprised to see you spread concern about the future of the current product lines.
In all likelihood, a company like DJI is investing into what Hasselblad is, thanks to the great product line up they are in the process of putting on the market (H6D-50c and H6D-100c now available and X1D becoming available). It would be extremely unlikely to see them kill those at this point in time. This would kill the value of what they, according to you, just purchased.
Similarly, why on earth would they want to fire people recently hired to build a new team that is most probably essential to the success of the Hasselblad products?
The fact that DJI is a Chinese company doesn't change anything. They have proven their ability to design, produce and sell great products. You don't achieve this without a proper managment culture.
Again, surprised to see you write such things.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 04, 2017, 08:53:52 pm
Corporate History as far as I can reconstruct. Any corrections are welcome:
1976 - Sold to Säfveån
1984 - Victor Hasselblad AB (VHAB) goes public
1985 - Hasselblad Electronic Imaging AB formed (subsidiary of VHAB)
1991 - Sold to Incentive AB (becoming privately held)
1996 - Sold to UBS Capital
2004 - Sold to Shriro
2005 - Imacon Deal
2005 - New CEO (Poulsen, Imacon background)
2009 - New CEO (Hansen, Zeiss background)
2011 - Sold to Ventizz Capital
2013 - New CEO (Ian Rawcliffe)
2015 - New CEO (Perry Oosting, Luxury background)
2016 - Sold to DJI
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 04, 2017, 08:58:26 pm
Best wishes to the new owners!
Corporate History as far as I can reconstruct. Any corrections are welcome:
1976 - Sold to Säfveån
1984 - Victor Hasselblad AB (VHAB) goes public
1985 - Hasselblad Electronic Imaging AB formed (subsidiary of VHAB)
1991 - Sold to Incentive AB (becoming privately held)
1996 - Sold to UBS Capital
2004 - Sold to Shriro
2005 - Imacon Deal
2005 - New CEO (Poulsen, Imacon background)
2009 - New CEO (Hansen, Zeiss background)
2011 - Sold to Ventizz Capital
2013 - New CEO (Ian Rawcliffe)
2015 - New CEO (Perry Oosting, Luxury background)
2016 - Sold to DJI
Doug,
With your well documented P1 bias, how do you expect this post to be interpreted? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 04, 2017, 09:01:05 pm
With your well documented P1 bias, how do you expect this post to be interpreted? ;)
No need to document my bias; I openly acknowledge it. That I work for a Phase One dealer is in my signature of every post.
I just listed facts I think are relevant to the article. I purposefully left out any interpretation whatsoever, except well wishes to the new owners.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 04, 2017, 09:07:52 pm
I just listed facts I think are relevant to the article. I purposefully left out any interpretation whatsoever, except well wishes to the new owners.
Yes, sure... you are kindly reminding us about these facts. ;)
I will tell you how I interpret your post and I believe I will not be alone in reading it this way.
- P1 is increasingly worried by the success of Hasselblad, both X1D and H6D,
- P1 see with this rumored take over an opportunity to spead FUD about Hasselblad in an attempt to slow down some sales,
I personnally don't find this very elegant. The quote about Perry coming from a luxury background is probably the worst part. You can do better than this.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: hubell on January 04, 2017, 09:27:21 pm
A lot of talk about Hasselblad has been going on around all the forums lately. I have posted an article that may explain things. Take a look. Hasselblad Acquired By DJI. https://luminous-landscape.com/hasselblad-acquired-dji/
Very surprising take from LuLa. A total hatchet job; totally unjustified. This is 2017; changes of control of companies are commonplace. Sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad. Yet, you have essentially proclimed that the sky is falling anda horrible tragedy has befallen Hasselblad and its customers. The notion that a strategic acquiror like DJI is BAD for Hasselblad and its future just because DJI is a Chinese company is ridiculous. There is a very significant likelihood that this is a positive move for Hasseelbad and its customers, not a negative move. After all, it was under the existing European ownership and former European CEO that Hasselblad made the worst moves in its history...the Stellar, the Lunar, etc. Whoever is acquiring Hasselblad today is buying into it based upon the products that have just been put into the pipeline, the H6D and the X1D, and other products that have not even been announced. The existing PE owner wanted out, and was probably unwilling to double down and pony up more capital to build out the manufacturing capacity and future R&D. DJI as a strategic acquiror will not be in this for a quick buck. I have no reason to doubt that DJI has very deep pockets and will be committed to the future of Hasselblad. If you have hard information to the contrary, let's hear it.
Post by: hubell on January 04, 2017, 09:45:35 pm
No need to document my bias; I openly acknowledge it. That I work for a Phase One dealer is in my signature of every post.
I just listed facts I think are relevant to the article. I purposefully left out any interpretation whatsoever, except well wishes to the new owners.
Doug, your response here reflects poorly on you and Digital Transitions. I can understand the resentment that Hasselblad and Fuji are coming out with cameras incorporating exactly the same sensor that Phase has incorporated into its camera system with the form factor of a boat anchor and for which it charges 3-4X as much. However, your anger is misplaced. It should be directed at Phase, which has been caught with its pants down.
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 04, 2017, 10:00:26 pm
The thread was about company history and corporate ownership. If anything my timeline shows that Hassy will be just fine; they've changed hands many times over the years. The quality of the CEO is more important in general and the current one is the best they've had in a long time.
Post by: Doug Peterson on January 04, 2017, 10:12:14 pm
I think I'll take a few months off. If anyone needs me they can call or email.
Post by: Manoli on January 04, 2017, 10:25:16 pm
Unless you can clearly show that Hasselblad were on the verge of bankruptcy, as Phase One were in 2014, I suggest you rephrase your piece. The company's liquidity ratio is all you need to know - it'll be in the balance sheet.
Doug – you may be many things , but factual ain't one of them. Having regaled us with tales of PhaseOne's increased sales and increased profits – can you please explain why the latest Phase One published accounts show the lowest yearly Net Profit since 2010 ? ( see Arets Resultat in the attached screenshot, below).
Oh, and Happy New Year, guys!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 04, 2017, 10:29:03 pm
I see it from the bright side of life.
Perry Oosting had previously said that DJI was a minority investor but an important one. The reason they invest in Hasselblad are probably twofold:
- They need MFD cameras for their products. (Not that I understand why?)
- They think it will be a profitable business.
I don't think it is a great secret that Hasselblad was into troubles a quiet long time. I guess that having a leading high tech company as an owner is not the worst thing that can happen to a company.
It could also be that the owner of DJI is interested in photography and wants to set a footstamp in photo history. That was how Contax was born. The owner of Kyocera wanted to make cameras, so they acquired Yashica and the Contax name.
My understanding is that both Hasselblad and Phase One are owned by venture capital companies Ventizz for the former and Silverfleet for the latter.
Kevin is comparing Hasselblad with Volvo, that is an interesting comparison. At the time Volvo Cars was sold to Ford they were doing extremely well. But they were regarded to be a company to small for all the R&D efforts needed. So the original Volvo focused on making lorries.
During the Automotive industry crisis Ford sold Volvo to Geely. Under the ownership of Geely Volvo Cars doubled production and now builds cars in two factories in China in addition to the factories in Gothenburg (Sweden) and Gent (Belgium).
2015 was the best year in Volvo's history.
Volvo Trucks is also doing well. They are second largest makers of trucks in the world.
Best regards
Erik
A lot of talk about Hasselblad has been going on around all the forums lately. I have posted an article that may explain things. Take a look. Hasselblad Acquired By DJI. https://luminous-landscape.com/hasselblad-acquired-dji/
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 04, 2017, 10:50:50 pm
Of course, lots of speculation about what it means, anything from the best thing that's happened to hasselblad in years to one more nail in the coffin.
I'm puzzled as to DJI's interest as well, I certainly see a little synergy, but I can't imagine they didn't have a specific need/goal that would benefit their core business model (maybe they're trying to develop or improve high end mapping drones). That isn't necessarily a negative, just curious as to where and what products/markets they feel are synergistic.
What comes to my mind is after seeing what is reported as a runaway hit with preorders exploding past any thing they envisioned, the current investors didn't feel it was enough to turn things around. i can't imagine they are going to recoup much of their investment from DJI, the company needs money, any investors willing to infuse that money usually just dilutes other investors. I hope it's not because the business plan/model of the new camera is coming in so far over budget it won't help in the long run. I would speculate the camera was announced early to try and convince investors things could be turned around, which apparently didn't work.
Perhaps DJI sees a great product and feel they can help bygetting things manufactured faster and more reasonable which could be a big win. Certainly no reason the quality has to suffer if the end product is controlled by the parent company ... Apple (and I'm sure several other companies) design a lot of nice products which are incredibly well made in China.
Post by: Tony Jay on January 05, 2017, 12:48:37 am
Hasselblad will only be the first of many interesting stories that will come out of the industry as the year progresses.
Tony Jay
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 05, 2017, 12:51:51 am
I think there is going to be a lot of shaking and moving happening this year.
Hasselblad will only be the first of many interesting stories that will come out of the industry as the year progresses.
What else do you have in mind if I may ask?
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: jduncan on January 05, 2017, 01:19:58 am
Hi Kevin,We are not sure that DJI bought Hasselblad. Being a majority investor can mean many things including owning 51% of the company Stock. I will love a full buy because DJI is the new Apple: They are way ahead of anyone else, out-innovating everyone else, and out engineering and marketing everyone else in the Drone Market. They are winning all over the place. Besides, the speculation that people are leaving Hasselblad, this should have been a super positive article. The fact that the article goes into the desition to close the platform (they were subsidizing PhaseOne) show the mindset it was writing on. It reads like FUD. Now it could be that the writer has insider information that is not in the article, but right now it does not look good, even more so with the timing (X1D is reaching customers). I believe this article is likely to hurt the X1D sales in a significant way.
With all due respect, I am a bit surprised to see you leak such information ahead of an official announcement from Hasselblad.
I am also a bit surprised to see you spread concern about the future of the current product lines.
In all likelihood, a company like DJI is investing into what Hasselblad is, thanks to the great product line up they are in the process of putting on the market (H6D-50c and H6D-100c now available and X1D becoming available). It would be extremely unlikely to see them kill those at this point in time. This would kill the value of what they, according to you, just purchased.
Similarly, why on earth would they want to fire people recently hired to build a new team that is most probably essential to the success of the Hasselblad products?
The fact that DJI is a Chinese company doesn't change anything. They have proven their ability to design, produce and sell great products. You don't achieve this without a proper managment culture.
Again, surprised to see you write such things.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: David Mantripp on January 05, 2017, 01:21:10 am
Just one example - how could DJI have been bought on as a shareholder in November 2015 to help the funding crisis bought on by orders for a camera announced in June 2016 ?
And Contax, a digital camera maker ? Er, yeah, right. Try searching this site's archives for Contax N Digital.....and its aftermath.
Get a grip, Kevin.
Post by: jduncan on January 05, 2017, 01:32:37 am
Seems to me this is pretty newsworthy, not sure why anyone would expect Kevin to sit on it.
Of course, lots of speculation about what it means, anything from the best thing that's happened to hasselblad in years to one more nail in the coffin.
I'm puzzled as to DJI's interest as well, I certainly see a little synergy, but I can't imagine they didn't have a specific need/goal that would benefit their core business model (maybe they're trying to develop or improve high end mapping drones). That isn't necessarily a negative, just curious as to where and what products/markets they feel are synergistic.
What comes to my mind is after seeing what is reported as a runaway hit with preorders exploding past any thing they envisioned, the current investors didn't feel it was enough to turn things around. i can't imagine they are going to recoup much of their investment from DJI, the company needs money, any investors willing to infuse that money usually just dilutes other investors. I hope it's not because the business plan/model of the new camera is coming in so far over budget it won't help in the long run. I would speculate the camera was announced early to try and convince investors things could be turned around, which apparently didn't work.
Perhaps DJI sees a great product and feel they can help bygetting things manufactured faster and more reasonable which could be a big win. Certainly no reason the quality has to suffer if the end product is controlled by the parent company ... Apple (and I'm sure several other companies) design a lot of nice products which are incredibly well made in China.
I was not expecting "Kevin to sit on it."
I was expecting him to write a balanced article, with a balanced title, and without the speculation (as presented on the article), that employees were leaving the company etc.
If you read the article again you are likely to understand where are we coming from. Stuf like this: "What does this mean? Well, we can speculate all we want. I have been in this industry a very long time. I can imagine that many of Hasselblad’s employees are a bit worried, to say the least. It could be that a few of them are no longer with the company or are already looking elsewhere for employment. I am sure that DJI is going to come in and make significant changes. The investors have most likely arranged a share transfer program so that they will get some of their investment back. But what about the new X1D, the H line, and most importantly, the future of the company?" Or this one :"n all fairness, another Swedish iconic company – Volvo, is now owned by Chinese investors and Volvo’s new models promise really well – if they sell."
Post by: Hank Keeton on January 05, 2017, 01:47:01 am
Doug... your historical review was accurate, (I even learned a few tidbits from it!!), and much appreciated. I did NOT infer any negativity from your presentation. Do not be discouraged by the nonsense. Sure...I'm one of your customers...but...you have much to offer, apart from my patronage, and this forum should be grateful.
For all those 'speculators" about what the future may bring...I say...Good Luck to everyone! May we all make great images with the gear we have (or dream about having...).
Kevin, I especially got a kick out of your historical recounting of your "Hasselbad Dreams and Adventures." You and I bought our first Hassys about the same time! You, of course, have had greater success, and offer much more to our collective well-being that I have been able to offer. But...the lenses you bought then...and ones I'm sure you've bought since...are making SUPERB images for me today.....Credo-60 from DT...and Hassy from many "used" sources over the years (plus Sinar and Silvestri, too...!!)
Let's all gather our wits...and wish Hassy the very best.....like I wish for all the other manufacturers.
Now...let's all go out and be creative...
Cheers...and Happy New Year...!!
Hank
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 05, 2017, 02:09:12 am
Kevin may have missed the fact that Volvo Cars is selling extremely well. They had their best year ever in 2015.
Best regards
Erik
Or this one :"n all fairness, another Swedish iconic company – Volvo, is now owned by Chinese investors and Volvo’s new models promise really well – if they sell."
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 05, 2017, 02:15:17 am
Kevin may have missed the fact that Volvo Cars is selling extremely well. They had their best year ever in 2015.
Absolutely.
There is no factual evidence that being taken over by a Chinese company, or more generally speaking by a company from a BRIC country, has a negative impact on the company being acquired, on the contrary. This isn't true about the products of the company being acquired, and it is also not true about the employees of the company being acquired.
We could mention Jaguar Land Rover as another tremendous example of the very opposite. The company has become incredibly successful after being acquired by Tata and is now helping Tata automotive division stay profitable.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 05, 2017, 03:53:17 am
I would guess that DJI has some interest in Hasselblad. They may be moving into high end areal imaging and want to offer a truly integrated solution. Or they want to earn the money themselves.
It is feasible that DJI would shift Hasselblad to higher volume at a lower price. That would be beneficial for MFD but perhaps less so for Hasselblad's competition.
Probably a good thing for Hasselblad.
Best regards
Erik
Absolutely.
There is no factual evidence that being taken over by a Chinese company, or more generally speaking by a company from a BRIC country, has a negative impact on the company being acquired, on the contrary. This isn't true about the products of the company being acquired, and it is also not true about the employees of the company being acquired.
We could mention Jaguar Land Rover as another tremendous example of the very opposite. The company has become incredibly successful after being acquired by Tata and is now helping Tata automotive division stay profitable.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: Domenico on January 05, 2017, 03:58:29 am
Hasselblad have product, projects, ideas, market, and now a founding owner / partner that can blown away all the rest of this very little market.
I guess, the future reference products for professional photography on the years to come
will come only from two brands :
HASSELBLAD & FUJI !!
that's all...
Happy new Year !
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on January 05, 2017, 04:24:28 am
1. LuLa leaking such a news worthy story, based on "reliable sources". It is a shift towards a rumours approach that, if continued, it will eventually backfire and hit the site's credibility. But I am sure that that is a risk that has been evaluated.
2. All the speculation that is built into the article, and the bias that "being bought by Chinese is a bad thing for companies". This is 2017, for many years, many companies have been bought by Chinese companies, which is better than letting them die.
3. I am sure that if this rumour is true, DJI will invest to have profit on this venture. Of course there will be some changes, but I find the tirades about employees being concerned and the future of new cameras not necessary.
Post by: Tony Jay on January 05, 2017, 04:30:29 am
What else do you have in mind if I may ask?I have in mind the whole DSLR cum mirrorless market.
Cheers,
Bernard
I think a lot will have changed by this time next year - hopefully for the better.
Medium format is of interest to me but I claim absolutely no expertise or real knowledge in this market segment so Kevin's article was as big a surprise to me as I guess it was for everyone else.
With respect to the interchangeable lens camera market (DSLR/mirrorless) it is absolutely clear the market is very different from even just 2-3 years back.
Lots of factors at play here:
The pace of innovation as far as actual IQ and resolution has slowed. In percentage terms the improvements over the last few years has slowed. Cameras have actually become very good (I seem to recall that you shoot with a D800 series camera) and so the scramble to get the newest and shiniest is not like it once was. The same thing happened with PC type computers a number of years ago as far as both hardware components and OS goes. The market matured somewhat. Who knows, some us might actually wear a camera out before replacing it now!
The effect of Smartphones on the market cannot be underestimated. As a camera many mom and pop type shooters who just a few years ago might have been seduced into buying a DSLR instead of a compact camera will now just use their Smartphone instead.
Much more concerning, IMO anyway, is the effect the Smartphone will have on the future market for DSLR's. Simply put most current teenagers, those who are Smartphone smart anyway, look at current model DLSR as a piece of dinosaurware. From an image quality point-of-view for their purposes a Smartphone is plenty good enough and from a usability/convenience perspective there is no contest. Simply put, going forward, very, very few of those teenagers, once they reach an age where purchasing a DSLR becomes a realistic option financially, will have any incentive to switch even if they are really interested in image-making. From their perspective the Smartphone does what they want. Of course there will always be outliers - if one is really interested in bird photography attaching a 600mm f4.0 to a Smartphone is currently a bit of a challenge. But for a lot of different types of photography the Smartphone suffices.
I am very much interested to see how the various manufacturers and the larger photographic industry responds to the challenge of not only maintaining, but increasing, their market share.
The interest in photography and image-making has never been higher yet the traditional vendors are losing market share hand over fist, most especially in market segments that were always their cash cow. The stuff that we shoot with might be the flagship that a manufacturer offers but it is rarely the big money-maker.
They will need to do something and time is not on their side.
Sony seems to be the only major player where both sides of the bread is buttered currently.
So, my view...
I think it will take a few weeks to ramp up but I expect plenty of announcements and perhaps even more rumours!
Tony Jay
Post by: pegelli on January 05, 2017, 05:27:52 am
Yes, sure... you are kindly reminding us about these facts. ;)
I will tell you how I interpret your post and I believe I will not be alone in reading it this way.
- P1 is increasingly worried by the success of Hasselblad, both X1D and H6D,
- P1 see with this rumored take over an opportunity to spead FUD about Hasselblad in an attempt to slow down some sales,
I personnally don't find this very elegant. The quote about Perry coming from a luxury background is probably the worst part. You can do better than this.
Doug, your response here reflects poorly on you and Digital Transitions. I can understand the resentment that Hasselblad and Fuji are coming out with cameras incorporating exactly the same sensor that Phase has incorporated into its camera system with the form factor of a boat anchor and for which it charges 3-4X as much. However, your anger is misplaced. It should be directed at Phase, which has been caught with its pants down.
Ahem, somebody who is a P1 dealer posts some pure facts about Hasselblad that might be interesting for readers here in light of Kevin's article, you immediately interpret this in a bad way and accuse him of having a second agenda. Now that's what I call a real bias. I'm sorry you can't do better than that.
Before further flaming me let me point out I have no skin in this game, I have neither a Hasselblad nor a P1 (nor any other MF system) and I do not intend in getting one in the future either. I'm just a member here who can live without conspiracy theories, fanboy wars and accusations that cannot be substantiated.
Post by: Gigi on January 05, 2017, 05:41:07 am
For what it's worth, I'd hope you'll reconsider your time off.
Yes, it's true that wading into such a hot topic with a revealing history about a competitor might not have been the first thing one might have done....
And at first glance, your list was pretty telling, and seemed negative.
With a bit more thought, this reader stepped back and concluded maybe your list actually suggests these changes weren't so damning, and that it really said to let time tell what works and doesn't. And that the real issue is in the particular details which, however much we all try, are rarely known to outsiders.
Urging a bit of calm here all around, and let's all try a bit of "wait and see".
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 05, 2017, 05:46:05 am
Ahem, somebody who is a P1 dealer posts some pure facts about Hasselblad that might be interesting for readers here in light of Kevin's article, you immediately interpret this in a bad way and accuse him of having a second agenda. Now that's what I call a real bias. I'm sorry you can't do better than that.
Before further flaming me let me point out I have no skin in this game, I have neither a Hasselblad nor a P1 (nor any other MF system) and I do not intend in getting one in the future either. I'm just a member here who can live without conspiracy theories, fanboy wars and accusations that cannot be substantiated.
No intention to flame you. Let's put it this way, I admire your ability to see things in a positive way. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: pegelli on January 05, 2017, 06:12:47 am
Let's put it this way, I admire your ability to see things in a positive way. ;)It's actually pretty easy ;)
(http://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/03/21/635941266812203509-1000552502_perspective.jpg)
Post by: DrakeJ on January 05, 2017, 06:40:57 am
Clearly Perry has a vision forward for Hasselblad, but it takes a lot of capital to get there. DJI has financial muscles to help Perry with his dreams.
I see only positives! And I'm Swedish ;)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 05, 2017, 07:53:55 am
I guess that DJI may have a different kind of management compared to old Hasselblad.
I have a couple of colleagues who came to our company when Geely was taking over Volvo, there was a change in management style and they didn't appreciate it. That's life.
My guess is that it is a positive development.
Best regards
Erik
I was surprised by:
1. LuLa leaking such a news worthy story, based on "reliable sources". It is a shift towards a rumours approach that, if continued, it will eventually backfire and hit the site's credibility. But I am sure that that is a risk that has been evaluated.
2. All the speculation that is built into the article, and the bias that "being bought by Chinese is a bad thing for companies". This is 2017, for many years, many companies have been bought by Chinese companies, which is better than letting them die.
3. I am sure that if this rumour is true, DJI will invest to have profit on this venture. Of course there will be some changes, but I find the tirades about employees being concerned and the future of new cameras not necessary.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 05, 2017, 08:56:55 am
There is almost Zero probability that a company like DJI would invest in a "bling" company. The reason they invest are probably either:
- Seeing synergy effects
- Seeing a need to go into high resolution arial photography
- The owner may simply be a Hasselblad fan
Anyway, it may seem obvious that partnering with a technology company may be far more rewarding than go hand in hands with a venture capital firm that is just caring amount earnings.
Best regards
Erik
Ps. Make Hasselblad Great Again!
Congrats to Hasselblad and Perry Oosting!
Clearly Perry has a vision forward for Hasselblad, but it takes a lot of capital to get there. DJI has financial muscles to help Perry with his dreams.
I see only positives! And I'm Swedish ;)
Post by: spassig on January 05, 2017, 09:15:40 am
Jochen
Post by: Dustbak on January 05, 2017, 09:44:46 am
Even if it is true and why should it not be true, their are multiple ways to see this. Kevin obviously is more than sceptical. I think it might work out really fine if it is true.
DJI is doing some things really well, have deep pockets and have a vested interest in the well being of HB as well.
Time will tell... (I was very enthusiastic about the AFi and Hy6 too :))
Post by: cgarnerhome on January 05, 2017, 09:53:13 am
Post by: scyth on January 05, 2017, 10:11:22 am
Post by: Alan Smallbone on January 05, 2017, 10:13:27 am
I can only see it as a positive. DJI is very innovative. And there is a real easy connection for DJI to be interested in Hasselblad, remember Hasselblad did come out with aerial camera designed for larger drones.
http://www.hasselblad.com/special-applications/a5d-aerial
DJI like to lead and if they get integration for commercial and industrial applications with hi-res imaging and long flight times, they come out way ahead. I can easily see DJI moving into larger more commercial aspects and perhaps even eventually into military and surveillance applications. So it is not surprising they increased their share in Hasselblad, they indicated right at the beginning with the first investment that they thought they would acquire more when the time was right.
I think it is an interesting step forward for a lot of technological reasons.
Alan
Post by: Miles Flint on January 05, 2017, 10:18:50 am
After all the basic facts of the X1D story were enough to raise questions not just about deliveries of the X1D but about the health of Hasselblad's business. Their difficulties and mis-steps over recent years are well known but their new CEO seems to have impressed. I have no detailed knowledge but it seems safe to assume that delayed shipments meant additional R&D costs which will have hit the profit and loss account. Assuming also pre-orders and customer interest have been greater than forecast by management then there will have been further pressure on what was likely already a weak balance sheet. More specifically there would have been a need for greater working capital to buy more components and raw materials than planned. Companies seen to be doing well are normally able to negotiate good payment terms but this becomes a lot harder for a small businesses with a patchy recent track record. Many a business has gone bust with huge orders from customers simply because of a lack of adequate working capital to turn components into finished product. Without an injection of capital or debt finance in such situations a board of directors likely have three choices: ask customers/dealers to pay in advance; seek funds from existing or new investors or close the doors. So I think the news that DJI have increased their stake should be good news both for those waiting for the XD1 and those who wish Hassleblad well. Quite what it means in future only time will tell but it is not hard to see that the X1D might have put Hassleblad in a very tight corner.
The XDI is not for me but I would like to see Hasselbald succeed. There is clearly a segment in the market for such a product. Innovation and competition is good for both manufacturers and customers. We shall see what 2017 brings.
In the interest of full disclosure I have Phase One and Arca-Swiss cameras and have travelled with Kevin but I write this more from the point of view of someone who once ran a (part) Swedish company which had successfully moved its manufacturing from Sweden to China before I joined them and of someone who is retired but who is not able completely to throw off an interest in businesses and how they are faring.
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 05, 2017, 10:32:08 am
I just sent the X1D back to Hasselblad after testing it and shooting with it. I have started to work on the review which is very positive. The X1D is simply a well thought out, intuitive camera that is really easy to shoot with and produces really nice images. Maybe, Hasselblad was a bit too optimistic in their delivery promises as it takes a lot to get a camera to right. As I say in my article if they ship too early and it has problems they are in trouble and by not shipping they are in trouble. I went right to the CEO and wrote the article before the Holidays on what to expect shipping wise. To my knowledge, they are shipping but in limited quantities. And, as was explained in that article they hope to ramp up to larger numbers of units shipped over the next few weeks.
Hasselblad needs to step up to the plate and let everyone know what is going on. Dealers, distributors, and end-users need to know when to expect units. They need to be open with what is going on with the company. I am very hopeful that Hasselblad does well with DJI's help. Hasselblad is an iconic company and careful consideration to that will be important to see HB remain successful and grow.
If there is news LuLa is here to report it and help them tell the story as we have done in the past year when sitting down with Perry. And, one more thing, if I sounded negative it might be a bit because I really like Hasselblad and have a fear that new owners, management might forget the legacy the brand was built on. I truly hope they use the legacy to strengthen the brand today.
Post by: algrove on January 05, 2017, 11:00:52 am
Post by: Paul2660 on January 05, 2017, 11:01:59 am
I wish the new company all the best.
Paul Caldwell
Post by: kers on January 05, 2017, 11:11:13 am
It feels very solid as one piece of metal.
If i see the photos of the new Fujifilm GFX 50s; that camera looks a bit like the first bulky digital camera's.
I am sure it is a good camera but Hasselblads design is very elegant and modern, compared to fuji's.
I also wish Hasselblad the best and that DJI may contribute in better electronics and software...
Post by: scyth on January 05, 2017, 11:22:41 am
I want to see Hasselblad to succeed. If my article came off negative I suppose it is what you read into it.
well, it is negative of course /and plays towards H's competition/, but then people shall know even rumors before investing into the system - and then everybody makes his/her decision themselves ... let us post some negative news/rumors about P1 to balance the score ;D
Post by: mecrox on January 05, 2017, 11:25:11 am
I have in mind the whole DSLR cum mirrorless market.
I think a lot will have changed by this time next year - hopefully for the better.
Medium format is of interest to me but I claim absolutely no expertise or real knowledge in this market segment so Kevin's article was as big a surprise to me as I guess it was for everyone else.
With respect to the interchangeable lens camera market (DSLR/mirrorless) it is absolutely clear the market is very different from even just 2-3 years back.
Lots of factors at play here:
The pace of innovation as far as actual IQ and resolution has slowed. In percentage terms the improvements over the last few years has slowed. Cameras have actually become very good (I seem to recall that you shoot with a D800 series camera) and so the scramble to get the newest and shiniest is not like it once was. The same thing happened with PC type computers a number of years ago as far as both hardware components and OS goes. The market matured somewhat. Who knows, some us might actually wear a camera out before replacing it now!
The effect of Smartphones on the market cannot be underestimated. As a camera many mom and pop type shooters who just a few years ago might have been seduced into buying a DSLR instead of a compact camera will now just use their Smartphone instead.
Much more concerning, IMO anyway, is the effect the Smartphone will have on the future market for DSLR's. Simply put most current teenagers, those who are Smartphone smart anyway, look at current model DLSR as a piece of dinosaurware. From an image quality point-of-view for their purposes a Smartphone is plenty good enough and from a usability/convenience perspective there is no contest. Simply put, going forward, very, very few of those teenagers, once they reach an age where purchasing a DSLR becomes a realistic option financially, will have any incentive to switch even if they are really interested in image-making. From their perspective the Smartphone does what they want. Of course there will always be outliers - if one is really interested in bird photography attaching a 600mm f4.0 to a Smartphone is currently a bit of a challenge. But for a lot of different types of photography the Smartphone suffices.
I am very much interested to see how the various manufacturers and the larger photographic industry responds to the challenge of not only maintaining, but increasing, their market share.
The interest in photography and image-making has never been higher yet the traditional vendors are losing market share hand over fist, most especially in market segments that were always their cash cow. The stuff that we shoot with might be the flagship that a manufacturer offers but it is rarely the big money-maker.
They will need to do something and time is not on their side.
Sony seems to be the only major player where both sides of the bread is buttered currently.
So, my view...
I think it will take a few weeks to ramp up but I expect plenty of announcements and perhaps even more rumours!
Tony Jay
Yes, that puts it all very neatly and concisely. I've been watching new camera announcements over the past few months for signs of change in the things you mention, but so far I have come up empty. Seems the crew on HMS Camera are just ploughing on, raising prices and hoping for the best, at the moment anyway. I hope the news with Hasselblad turns out to be good news for users and especially for staff and others who depend on the company doing well for their living. China is coming of age in a big way now and perhaps we all need to revise our attitudes to the way these things work.
Post by: dchew on January 05, 2017, 12:08:39 pm
... let us post some negative news/rumors about P1 to balance the score ;D
Been there done that. Should I queue the band?
Crazy pricing
Anyone who buys P1 products is just showing off
Ridiculous pricing
The end of MF
Insane pricing
Any perceived difference exists to justify the expense
Sales dropping off a cliff
They are deceiving everyone with their ISO/marketing trickery
Horrible and useless DR
Only for rich dentists
Useless because of the dark frame
Too expensive
Size and weight of a house
Did I mention price?
::)
Dave
Post by: Krug on January 05, 2017, 12:20:06 pm
The article itself - without evidence which, even if available, in my experience lawyers would recommend strongly against publishing at this point - is personal history plus speculation.
What concerns me more is what I believe Bernard Lanquillier was concerned about in his original post. There is a subtle balance to be struck when commenting on developments such as Kevin Raber writes about in his article. Break "news" based on insider information too early and in the wrong way and "reliable" sources dry up and what you can offer readers in the future becomes just the run of the mill rumour that we all tend to disregard as serious. Keep your powder dry and get the timing right and you will be trusted with more and better information - from which we will all benefit in the long run and it is what makes a "magazine" great.
Michael Reichmann was a master judge of that balance and we all benefitted from that !
Post by: mi-fu on January 05, 2017, 12:55:23 pm
It is not about brands. It is about balance and fairness.
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 05, 2017, 12:56:50 pm
Post by: Manoli on January 05, 2017, 01:02:37 pm
Trust me if Michael was still with us he wouldn't have waited as long as I did to publish the article.
Enlighten me, Kevin - after over 2,000 words and 3 pages of forum posts, the only 'news' is that Hasselblad has a new majority shareholder. Was there anything else other than pie-in-the-sky hearsay and innuendo ?
Edit:
... other than PhaseOne's net income dropping by 62.8% yoy in the last published accounts. (See #11)
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 05, 2017, 01:48:53 pm
Edit:Note that revenue was essentially flat which is something few camera companies can actually say. The net income down is due to capacity charges which is likely due to the completion of the acquisition of the remaining Mamiya assets.
... other than PhaseOne's net income dropping by 62.8% yoy in the last published accounts. (See #11)
But even if it's something else, simply looking at a balance sheet without the associated commentary is almost meaningless because there could have been strategic expenditures and one time charges that effected the numbers. It would be nice if somebody that was fluent in Danish could read the entire report, not just the table and let us know what the actual reasons for the main cause of the capital expenditures increase (according to Google translation) were rather than drawing the conclusion that the ship is sinking.
Post by: Peter McLennan on January 05, 2017, 02:09:39 pm
Post by: NickT on January 05, 2017, 02:47:01 pm
Please, DJI make us a MFD drone. :)
I have already seen an X1D mounted on a DJI drone.
Post by: BradSmith on January 05, 2017, 03:47:03 pm
Thank you for the article. I never have been interested in MF, so I have no skin in this arena. I found the news to be a little sad, emblematic of the new world order, and to some degree, wryly humorous. One of the two or three brightest shining names of highest quality photography over the past 50 years acquired by a drone manufacturer.
It seems clear that based on info that you have received from numerous sources, you are confident that the info is real. You are CEO and publisher of this site. You've been more deeply involved in the MF arena than probably anyone posting here, except maybe Peterson. You are CEO and publisher of this site. You know there are a lot of MF fanboys, er, ah, afficianados here, and the PAST history of MF dominating the pro/highest quality end of photography, therefore, there would be great interest. And it seems to me that you have the right to believe this MIGHT be a bad omen for the company. Oh, and by the way, you are CEO and publisher of this site.
In case others can't tell, I was "shocked and disappointed" by the whining by numerous commenters. What would ever happen if you published something that those same people viewed as being critical about, OH MY GOD, Leica?
Brad
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 05, 2017, 04:21:21 pm
I guess we can see it two ways. One is the positive one, Hasselblad is owned by I company on the go with lots of money. I don't know about the negative on.
One thing i know that Perry Oosten was happy with the initial investment by DJI, it may have changed since, of course.
If you go back to the original Imacon deal, it could be seen as an ideal situation for Phase One and Hasselblad. Phase One made the backs and Hasselblad made the cameras.
But, it was very clear that it was in the backs the money was. The cost for a back was like a camera body with 5-10 lenses. Hasselblad decided that they would sell their own backs with their cameras. Phase needed to somewhere else to for bodies. I think that Phase One earned a lot of sympathies those days, but it was an entirely feasible decision by Hasselblad.
It may be that Hasselblad was not around today without that decision. We don't know…
At the time of the merger between Hasselblad and Imacon the owner of both companies was Shiro, a Hong Kong based venture capital firm. They may have been the best owners Hasselblad had for many years.
Now, it seems that Hasselblad may have been taken over by DJI. Why? Could be they feel that it is fun to own Hasselblad, but it could also be that they feel there is a market for large sensor aerial photography and they want to earn that money self instead of doing all the hard work and let Phase one walk off with the profits.
It could be that Kevin has more info that he did not disclose. But I wouldn't say that Hasselblad changing ownership from a German VC to the company dominating the drone business is not necessarily a bad thing.
Difficult to predict the future is…
Best regards
Erik
Kevin,
Thank you for the article. I never have been interested in MF, so I have no skin in this arena. I found the news to be a little sad, emblematic of the new world order, and to some degree, wryly humorous. One of the two or three brightest shining names of highest quality photography over the past 50 years acquired by a drone manufacturer.
It seems clear that based on info that you have received from numerous sources, you are confident that the info is real. You are CEO and publisher of this site. You've been more deeply involved in the MF arena than probably anyone posting here, except maybe Peterson. You are CEO and publisher of this site. You know there are a lot of MF fanboys, er, ah, afficianados here, and the PAST history of MF dominating the pro/highest quality end of photography, therefore, there would be great interest. And it seems to me that you have the right to believe this MIGHT be a bad omen for the company. Oh, and by the way, you are CEO and publisher of this site.
In case others can't tell, I was "shocked and disappointed" by the whining by numerous commenters. What would ever happen if you published something that those same people viewed as being critical about, OH MY GOD, Leica?
Brad
Post by: Alan Smallbone on January 05, 2017, 04:49:05 pm
I have already seen an X1D mounted on a DJI drone.
Hasselblad already has a camera that is MF and designed to be carried on drones I posted the link earlier, here it is again,
http://www.hasselblad.com/special-applications/a5d-aerial
There are already gimbals to carry it and you could mount it on one of the larger 8 rotor drones.
Alan
Post by: Alan Smallbone on January 05, 2017, 04:52:36 pm
http://www.hasselblad.com/special-applications/a5d-m600-bundle
So there you go, DJI just wants to expand the technology. I am sure. When they reduce costs then sales will go up, at least in theory.
Alan
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 05, 2017, 05:07:48 pm
What does DJI get out of it, this is pure speculation on my part, but for one an iconic brand name which has significant value, exceptional aesthetic engineering capabilities, expertise in large sensor hardware integration and deep partnerships with world class optics manufacturers. And then there's drones which are going to be regulated into oblivion in the EU as the EU has done to anything that flies except airlines (and that's debatable) but if there is now an EU drone company, DJI or Hasselblad Drones in the EU will likely make the overzealous EU regulators look at drones a bit differently - again pure speculation...
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 05, 2017, 05:44:00 pm
Any view differing from this default reasonnable view would have to be backed up by facts not to read as an unexpectedely negative take.
Kevin, I am not questioning your neutrality, I am just stressing that the way you have phrased the last part of your article doesn't reflect your positive intent. So it may be good to rework that part a bit?
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: gilstill on January 05, 2017, 06:03:23 pm
Friends who have purchased DJI drones marvel at the company's talent and marketing skills. I don't think they are a two-bit Chinese junk operation and frankly I'm optimistic about Hasselblad's future.
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 05, 2017, 06:15:40 pm
Friends who have purchased DJI drones marvel at the company's talent and marketing skills. I don't think they are a two-bit Chinese junk operation and frankly I'm optimistic about Hasselblad's future.I would tend to agree with that. Check out how they introduced the Mavic Pro - Steve Jobs could not have done better...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CaTuSbUZ68
Post by: wattsies2 on January 05, 2017, 06:41:30 pm
I think this can only be a good thing. One would imagine that DJI is more likely to be a long term holder and investor in Hasselblad than a private equity firm whose mandate is to make a certain return and then sell. Let's hope so anyway - it's in all our interests that the photography market continue to be diverse and populated with a variety of companies pushing R&D in new directions, as well as having regard to the roots of the discipline.
Post by: Gigi on January 05, 2017, 07:33:36 pm
For reasons pointed out above, this may well be one of those cases it's good for both parties, on any levels. Mature Chinese companies have shown in other cases they know how to honor and protect the management and engineering expertise of companies they have acquired. Maybe its time to give Mr. Perry the benefit of the doubt in his negotiations until more is known.
I'm choosing to read the article as a plea to Hassy and its owners to be upfront and make a proper statement about the changes, and what they mean for this hallowed brand. In that light, it's a good article.
Post by: JeffS on January 05, 2017, 11:47:32 pm
Jeff
Post by: NickT on January 05, 2017, 11:50:58 pm
After having thought about this quite a bit and having read every post on every forum that is discussing this, and being a 27 year veteran (retired) of the tech industry, I have come to the conclusion that this is likely to be a very good thing for Hasselblad beyond the much needed cash infusion to deal with the additional up-front production tooling and costs to meet unanticipated demand. I think anybody that has worked in the tech industry that has followed the saga of the X1D has come to the realization that Hasselblad came up with a great hardware design but that they greatly underestimated the difficulty and the time scope, given their reportedly limited resources, of the software side of bringing this camera to market. All signs point to firmware development as being the major bottleneck in bringing this camera to market. DJI on the other hand excels at the software side of the business and as majority financial investor in Hasselblad (note that what's been reported is that they are taking or took a majority shareholder position which is different from a straight-up acquisition), they have the financial and technical capability to bring both the financial and computer engineering/programming resources to bear to make not only the X1D great but also to give the company some more solid financial footing.
What does DJI get out of it, this is pure speculation on my part, but for one an iconic brand name which has significant value, exceptional aesthetic engineering capabilities, expertise in large sensor hardware integration and deep partnerships with world class optics manufacturers. And then there's drones which are going to be regulated into oblivion in the EU as the EU has done to anything that flies except airlines (and that's debatable) but if there is now an EU drone company, DJI or Hasselblad Drones in the EU will likely make the overzealous EU regulators look at drones a bit differently - again pure speculation...
Very well said, thank you.
Post by: BAB on January 06, 2017, 01:03:48 am
Ray Kroc was selling hamburgers lots of them he needed money so after getting turned down from everyone he went to his bakery supplier. They funded him, but they didn't buy the company. The company the was not a brand name at the time, like Hasselblad. Later Ray did pretty good with his hamburger business.
If you have lots of orders, your product has a good profit margin and your software is bleeding but there is still hope. So mayby your little camera business got so big so fast demanding so much cash that your financial partners couldn't pony up the cash. So you went elesewhere for the cash, hopefully didn't sell your soul to the devil. You got the cash more then you needed, it's a win win. Your investors got out of Dodge taking a (hit) discount on their positions and your new partners got in on a (steal) good deal.
Hopefully it went like that? We all want to see a progressive MF system crowned king again.
If I'm right...
Phase One hold on to your hat!
Post by: tennapel on January 06, 2017, 02:18:15 am
I enjoy the great in depth articles about printers and going back to print. The recent article from the photographers that travel in an Airstream trailer, balancing work and photography needs was very inspiring to read.
The tone of this article is very different from what I have read before. I can understand why people reacted negative to it or even read bad intent into it; the speculation and the factual are not clearly distinguished.
Maybe the takeaway is that when the writer of an article expresses an opinion it should be stated more clearly. I have read Kevin's statement on this forum and I take that for true. Having a peer review before publishing might help for future articles.
Post by: peterwgallagher on January 06, 2017, 03:00:02 am
A very good article. Certainly newsworthy, still a scoop it seems, with well-informed commentary (& interesting back-story). Balanced, in my view. But 'balance' be damned! I do not agree at all with the advice that some Members seem so eager to offer: that LULA should genuflect to the manufacturers, avoid "speculation" & only whisper remarks that might hint of criticism.
As someone who still lusts after the XD-1, I'm delighted to see you are maintaining LULA's independent-enthusiast stance. I am sure you're absolutely right about "What Michael Would Have Done". But that isn't the measure of a good article either (he might have agreed?). Please keep doing this when you can.
Best wishes.
Post by: landscapephoto on January 06, 2017, 03:31:38 am
I guess we can see it two ways. One is the positive one, Hasselblad is owned by I company on the go with lots of money. I don't know about the negative on.
Exactly. Hasselblad revenue is around 30 millions a year, while DJI is about 1.4 billion.
Quote
If you go back to the original Imacon deal, it could be seen as an ideal situation for Phase One and Hasselblad. Phase One made the backs and Hasselblad made the cameras.
But, it was very clear that it was in the backs the money was. The cost for a back was like a camera body with 5-10 lenses. Hasselblad decided that they would sell their own backs with their cameras. Phase needed to somewhere else to for bodies. I think that Phase One earned a lot of sympathies those days, but it was an entirely feasible decision by Hasselblad.
It may be that Hasselblad was not around today without that decision. We don't know…
That is indeed what happened. That, and Hasselblad issued the H1 in 2002, so they had everything geared up for analog photography at that time. At the time, the prevailing opinion was that analog was there to stay for the professional market. 2 years after, the situation was completely different and Hasselblad partnered with then little known Phase One for developing their backs. In 2008, when Hasselblad decided to stop supporting third party backs, the situation was quite clear: the digital backs were where the money was to be made. The choice was either to sell out Hasselblad to Phase One or to close the system.
Quote
Now, it seems that Hasselblad may have been taken over by DJI. Why? Could be they feel that it is fun to own Hasselblad, but it could also be that they feel there is a market for large sensor aerial photography and they want to earn that money self instead of doing all the hard work and let Phase one walk off with the profits.
Quite possible. There is a huge market for aerial photography in the agricultural business. It could be that DJI sees growth in that direction. Conversely, the market for cheap "selfie" drones is quite cluttered, so probably DJI understand they need to diversify.
Post by: GMB on January 06, 2017, 04:00:02 am
Just my 2c.
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on January 06, 2017, 04:05:18 am
The Hasselblad article has already been superseded, 24 hours later, by an unremarkable Fuji announcement. Lead articles on LuLa typically last 3 days or so. Coincidence? :)
Jeff
Indeed, I was again surprised to see a front page article about a graphite special edition camera from Fuji... really? I can understand that the editor has personal preferences, just like any of us, and that he currently has a sweet spot for Fuji. In the meantime, for example, in other systems, some great lenses have come out (e.g. Loxia 21, Batis 18, Voigtlander 10, 12, 15, Nikon 105, etc), without similar front page (or back page) notoriety.
Post by: DezFoto on January 06, 2017, 06:34:51 am
Post by: Tony Jay on January 06, 2017, 06:58:13 am
I don't really see how DJI becoming a majority shareholder equates to more operating capital as is eluded to in the artical on the main site, that's not really how it works.Huh?? :o
Companies are taken over for lots of reasons.
You don't know for sure whether DJI won't put more money into the operation any more than I do.
In this particular case though there is really no logic to the takeover if DJI just allows the Hasselblad operation to wither away and die.
There is actually plenty of evidence that DJI see Hasselblad as an important complement to their main business - drones that are used essentially for photo-reconnaissance. As far as I know it is not military tasking but I don't that for sure.
Tony Jay
Post by: Hans Kruse on January 06, 2017, 08:50:28 am
Huh?? :o
Companies are taken over for lots of reasons.
You don't know for sure whether DJI won't put more money into the operation any more than I do.
In this particular case though there is really no logic to the takeover if DJI just allows the Hasselblad operation to wither away and die.
There is actually plenty of evidence that DJI see Hasselblad as an important complement to their main business - drones that are used essentially for photo-reconnaissance. As far as I know it is not military tasking but I don't that for sure.
Tony Jay
Having being involved with mergers myself, I'm sure DJI sees synergy that will be beneficial for both companies and having a controlling share is essential. Sometimes such synergy does not really become reality for many reasons both inside and outside the company. Only time will tell. MF is not in my interest, but I find it interesting with the evolution that has happened in this space over the recent years despite all the expectations for MF to become extinct soon.
Post by: JeffS on January 06, 2017, 10:20:22 am
Indeed, I was again surprised to see a front page article about a graphite special edition camera from Fuji... really? I can understand that the editor has personal preferences, just like any of us, and that he currently has a sweet spot for Fuji. In the meantime, for example, in other systems, some great lenses have come out (e.g. Loxia 21, Batis 18, Voigtlander 10, 12, 15, Nikon 105, etc), without similar front page (or back page) notoriety.
My point was less about Fuji and more about the notion that I think Kevin couldn't wait to change the subject, given all the controversy. The new headline could have been a pie recipe.
Jeff
Post by: jduncan on January 06, 2017, 11:02:57 am
Trust me if Michael was still with us he wouldn't have waited as long as I did to publish the article.
I do,
He practically "hated" Hasselblad and Hasselblad "hate" him back.
I was under the impression that everybody in the industry knew that.
Best regards
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 06, 2017, 11:08:57 am
My point was less about Fuji and more about the notion that I think Kevin couldn't wait to change the subject, given all the controversy. The new headline could have been a pie recipe.Yummy! I love pie!
Jeff
Post by: JeffS on January 06, 2017, 11:15:19 am
He practically "hated" Hasselblad and Hasselblad "hate" him back.
But Michael loved the Hasselblad X-Pan. Oh wait, that was actually manufactured by Fuji. :)
Jeff
Post by: SCFrieze3 on January 06, 2017, 12:23:10 pm
Post by: NickT on January 06, 2017, 01:36:28 pm
What they have done is increased their shareholding and will sit on the board alongside Ventizz Capital (existing owners).
DJI have a great deal of technical know how and this is a good thing for Hasselblad.
Post by: Dustbak on January 06, 2017, 01:47:24 pm
Post by: Rob C on January 06, 2017, 03:30:44 pm
I personally don't care who owns Hasselblad. What matters to me is whether or not they continue to make a professional quality camera that I want to use and enjoy using. I loved my 500cm. I loved using it. I loved the images we produced together. After seeing and holding the X1D I really want to go out and shoot with it. I want to see if we can develop the synergy of a productive working relationship that is enjoyable. I want to be able to choose between systems. Right now I've been lusting after the Phase One xf 100mp. But I like this camera. Since I could use H lenses with xid I wouldn't have to have two different systems and two sets of lenses. If DJI helps Hasselblad continue making excellent equipment then wonderful for all of us... we have a choice of systems and Phase has competition. It just might be a good thing for all of us.
I think that holds for every one of us who had them (and the 500C before it) but I can't see that emotion will be reflected in digital cameras, whoever makes them... It's a visceral, tactile thing about weight, solidity and finish. It's a basic emotion, pretty much as basic as were those delightful cameras. Once you understood them, they never got in the way. Nobody can feel like that about a computer. Can they? God, I hope not.
Rob
Post by: SCFrieze3 on January 06, 2017, 04:52:25 pm
Judging by the way people act on different forums it seems that they take it very personally if you critique their favorite camera or system. I know I for one feel as if my D810 is more and more a part of me. But it is not the same as using a film 500cm or Leica Mxx. I would love to have an experience with a modern digital camera that is similar to the synergy felt with film Hasselblads and Leicas. (At a price point a simple country pastor can afford. I don't claim to be a pro. just an enthusiast who never went to art school, has spent much time with friends who are professionals, sells or publishes an occasional image, and loves photography. I'm really pretty ignorant but having fun.).
Post by: Tony Jay on January 06, 2017, 05:09:17 pm
Having being involved with mergers myself, I'm sure DJI sees synergy that will be beneficial for both companies and having a controlling share is essential. Sometimes such synergy does not really become reality for many reasons both inside and outside the company. Only time will tell. MF is not in my interest, but I find it interesting with the evolution that has happened in this space over the recent years despite all the expectations for MF to become extinct soon.Thanks for the reply Hans.
It is my opinion but I think the predicted demise of medium format is a little premature.
While the winds of change are most definitely blowing through the industry as a whole it is interesting to note the differences in different market segments.
Although MF has been relegated to a niche market from everything that I can glean it is relatively stable.
There have even been new players in this market recently.
I don't question that both P1 and Hasselblad, as obvious examples, have had their issues but the market for MF remains.
I agree with you that recent events at Hasselblad don't necessarily guarantee their success but doing nothing was clearly not an option.
But, I think, for the moment at least, it is P1 where the most concern should probably be directed.
In common though, with the rest of the photographic market, the manufacturers who offer the best price/value combination will probably survive.
Prosperity though, apart from one notable exception, is something that is probably a distant and elusive goal for almost every major player in every market segment.
Tony Jay
Post by: Tony Jay on January 06, 2017, 05:30:57 pm
DJI have not acquired Hasselblad.I hope I am not pointing out the blindingly obvious but having a majority shareholding in a company gives that entity, by definition, control of that company.
What they have done is increased their shareholding and will sit on the board alongside Ventizz Capital (existing owners).
DJI have a great deal of technical know how and this is a good thing for Hasselblad.
That control may be exerted in a rather benign fashion with a lot of due deference to minority shareholders but ultimately they do control this company, and at a board level, nothing can happen without DJI's approval.
Tony Jay
Post by: NickT on January 06, 2017, 06:38:33 pm
I hope I am not pointing out the blindingly obvious but having a majority shareholding in a company gives that entity, by definition, control of that company.
That control may be exerted in a rather benign fashion with a lot of due deference to minority shareholders but ultimately they do control this company, and at a board level, nothing can happen without DJI's approval.
Tony Jay
Hi Tony
I wonder if you could point out where I said "majority".
Thanks so much.
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 06, 2017, 08:09:38 pm
I assume this was a capital injection (probably needed to ramp up production) from a party that is already a shareholder and a strategical partner? In that case this is non-news and certainly not worth so much attention...Assuming it was a capital injection and not just a corporate loan, any such injection by shareholders will dilute the value of any shareholders which do not match the funds. Obviously this course of action must be agreed to by a majority of the investors, but it certainly appears that DJI is moving to acquire the company and based on current information the cash infused into the company certainly means they could now be the majority shareholder.
AS any new controlling partners can have a major impact on a company, it certainly qualifies as newsworthy. It could mean anything from disaster to a resounding hasselblad comeback. However, I do believe without the investment, disaster was more likely than it is now, in that light it can only be seen as a positive step. Time will tell if it ends up a positive step.
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 06, 2017, 09:08:25 pm
It is usual, not unusual, for a company with the needed cash to buy into (and even take over) a smaller company that is struggling with a scale or fail situation. Unless the larger company has no integrity, they can bring all kinds of good things to the table, like what is needed to succeed, given the situation. They do usually alter things too.
Since DJI seems to be hip and tech-smart, my guess is we should be happy this has taken place. Otherwise, the whole X1D project might have stalled out. That being said, and since I have my X1D on order, I am going to (perhaps) order the Fuji GFX system when pre-orders are opened, against the case that Hasselblad stumbles in some really serious manner. I am confident that the Fuji GFX will be integral and the delivery process (lenses, etc.) will be smooth. Yet, who knows? I also really want a Nikon D810 successor with 54 Mpx. I have read enough posts by Kevin Raber that I believe he has the right information (and probably more), and I am glad he shared it.
Post by: SCFrieze3 on January 07, 2017, 12:14:20 am
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 12:50:19 am
Hi Tony
I wonder if you could point out where I said "majority".
Thanks so much.
No Nick you didn't - quite right - but Kevin did, and assuming, of course, that he is correct, then the facts outlined in my post stand.
Tony Jay
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 01:17:25 am
I have been a software engineer since the 1970s, and later an Internet pioneer-entrepreneur, creating large enterprise-level sites, etc. In my experience, the most difficult problem with these kinds of projects is scaling. I would guess this is the problem with the X1D; Hasselblad was forced to scale by the demand for the product, but perhaps had not thought out scaling-process as well as was required. They were overwhelmed and this forced the cash infusion.Michael, I agree with a lot of what you have written, however I am not so sure that they caught out by poor planning.
It is usual, not unusual, for a company with the needed cash to buy into (and even take over) a smaller company that is struggling with a scale or fail situation. Unless the larger company has no integrity, they can bring all kinds of good things to the table, like what is needed to succeed, given the situation. They do usually alter things too.
Since DJI seems to be hip and tech-smart, my guess is we should be happy this has taken place. Otherwise, the whole X1D project might have stalled out. That being said, and since I have my X1D on order, I am going to (perhaps) order the Fuji GFX system when pre-orders are opened, against the case that Hasselblad stumbles in some really serious manner. I am confident that the Fuji GFX will be integral and the delivery process (lenses, etc.) will be smooth. Yet, who knows? I also really want a Nikon D810 successor with 54 Mpx. I have read enough posts by Kevin Raber that I believe he has the right information (and probably more), and I am glad he shared it.
Given what Kevin wrote it seems more likely to me that Hasselblad management were well aware of their capital requirements and took their request to the board.
It appears, to me anyway, that most (all) of the majority shareholder block were not prepared to pony up the cash required, but DJI, then a minority shareholder, offered to help.
However, it is likely that their position was, as a minority shareholder, that they unwilling to subsidize the majority shareholding.
Through negotiation most of the majority shareholders agreed to a payout, DJI picked up the shares, and Hasselblad got its cash injection.
I didn't get the impression that any of the players were riotously happy at the outcome but it seems that common sense prevailed.
Tony Jay
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 07, 2017, 02:20:55 am
Michael, I agree with a lot of what you have written, however I am not so sure that they caught out by poor planning.
Tony Jay
The main idea I was suggesting was "scaling," the pathway how to ramp up production, with or without more money. Many very fine web sites, for example, have crashed and burned because the process involved in running the sites was not organized to grow, etc. Who knows. Perhaps it will gradually be revealed. Certainly, if they were assembling by hand, and needed to suddenly produce more by a huge factor, they may well have not been positioned to be able to easily scale that process, etc.
Post by: Manoli on January 07, 2017, 03:35:06 am
I am not so sure ... it seems more likely ... It appears, to me anyway, ...
Rampant speculation and conjecture with zero factual input.
Through negotiation most of the majority shareholders agreed to a payout, DJI picked up the shares, and Hasselblad got its cash injection.
The above exemplifies that you have no idea of corporate financing. Firstly, that Ventizz sold shares to DJI does NOT mean that Hasselblad got a cash injection - only that Ventizz (if they were the seller of the shareholding) did. It's not a payout, which would be a 'dividend', but a straight sale.
Secondly, IF Hassy were in need of extra cash, they would normally finance this via either a bank loan, a corporate bond issue or an increase in share capital. The last option being what you refer to as 'a cash injection'. If Hassy didn't have the muscle to make a bond issue attractive - DJI did/would.
I didn't get the impression that any of the players were riotously happy at the outcome but it seems that common sense prevailed.
Your impression, common sense ... ? Given that the ONLY fact you know is that DJI have increased their shareholding why comment at all until the company issue a statement. If they ever do. It's a private company, and anyway, they're too busy trying to get the X1D out of the door.
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 04:23:04 am
Rampant speculation and conjecture - no factual content.Of course it is speculation!
The above exemplifies that you have no idea of corporate financing. Firstly, that Ventizz sold shares to DJI does NOT mean that Hasselblad got a cash injection - only that Ventizz (if they were the seller of the shareholding) did. It's not a payout, which would be a 'dividend', but a straight sale.
Secondly, IF Hassy were in need of extra cash, they would normally finance this via either a bank loan, a corporate bond issue or an increase in share capital. The last option being what you refer to as 'a cash injection'. If Hassy didn't have the muscle to make a bond issue attractive - DJI did/would.
Your impression, common sense ... ? Given that the ONLY fact you know is that DJI have increased their shareholding why comment at all until the company issue a statement. If they ever do. It's a private company, and anyway, they're too busy trying to get the X1D out of the door.
What my post was, was a plausible alternative analysis to another speculative comment.
I don't know how accurate it will turn out to be - maybe not at all, but maybe close to the truth.
I absolutely used conditional language in my post precisely because it was speculation!
Your anger is misplaced.
Are you going to go and flame Michael Erlewine as well??
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 04:34:40 am
The main idea I was suggesting was "scaling," the pathway how to ramp up production, with or without more money. Many very fine web sites, for example, have crashed and burned because the process involved in running the sites was not organized to grow, etc. Who knows. Perhaps it will gradually be revealed. Certainly, if they were assembling by hand, and needed to suddenly produce more by a huge factor, they may well have not been positioned to be able to easily scale that process, etc.Hi Michael, at the risk of being flamed again by third parties I will respond to your post.
I agree that your suggestions with respect to "scaling" are plausible.
My main bone of contention was the suggestion that they were caught out - taken by surprise as it were.
I am pretty sure that both their production engineers and managers as well as their financial people had an excellent handle on their financial needs. It seems (yes this IS speculation) as if they might just not have had the financial muscle - hence setting in motion events that culminate with DJI owning a controlling interest in Hasselblad.
For Manoli - yes this is speculation!
Tony Jay
Post by: Manoli on January 07, 2017, 04:49:42 am
Your anger is misplaced.
Are you going to go and flame Michael Erlewine as well??
Anger, flaming - ?? Nope.
Michael's post related to 'scaling' - yours indicated an erroneous understanding of how corporate financing works , which, allied to the only verifiable fact we know - that DJI have increased their shareholding ( and, yes, I'll take Nick-T's word on that) only serves to add FUD.
Edit:
Just looked at 'FUD' on wikipedia : 'FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear.' Yup \..
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 05:11:20 am
Anger, flaming - ?? Nope.I take it that you have not read Kevin's article then.
Michael's post related to 'scaling' - yours indicated an erroneous understanding of how corporate financing works , which, allied to the only verifiable fact we know - that DJI have increased their shareholding ( and, yes, I'll take Nick-T's word on that) only serves to add FUD.
I have no idea about its accuracy but it is there in black and white - DJI do now apparently have a majority shareholding in Hasselblad.
Nick-T seems apparently unaware of that.
In addition, again accuracy unverified, but if you read Kevin's article he mentions several issues that would make most of your suggestions unlikely.
I think if you have a serious problem re FUD perhaps you should interrogate Kevin instead.
Post by: Manoli on January 07, 2017, 05:44:08 am
I have no idea about its accuracy ..
Q.E.D.
I think if you have a serious problem re FUD perhaps you should interrogate Kevin instead.
I did, in post #11. We're still waiting ...
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 05:46:36 am
Q.E.D.You got me here, I am not familiar with this abbreviation ??
...
Tony Jay
Post by: Manoli on January 07, 2017, 05:50:19 am
You got me here, I am not familiar with this abbreviation ??
Q.E.D. - an initialism of the Latin phrase 'quod erat demonstrandum', meaning "thus it has been demonstrated" - but as you're a doctor, I'm sure you already knew that !
Think back to when you were around 10 years old .. all those school excercises in geometry involving Pythagoras' theorem (amongst others) .. ;)
Edit:
But I'll take it in the humorous context in which I'm sure it was written ... Humour never did any harm!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 07, 2017, 05:58:49 am
Being critical of is not the not same a "hating".
Just take the facts, Michael made an investment in a full Hasselblad kit to be used with his Phase One back. Soon enough Hasselblad closed the H-system to Phase One. No surprise Michael was a bit upset.
A good company listens to critique and now days Hasselblad offers H#X models that work with other backs.
Best regards
Erik
I do,
He practically "hated" Hasselblad and Hasselblad "hate" him back.
I was under the impression that everybody in the industry knew that.
Best regards
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 06:05:11 am
Q.E.D. - an initialism of the Latin phrase 'quod erat demonstrandum', meaning "thus it has been demonstrated" - but as you're a doctor, I'm sure you already knew that !Obviously familiar with the English, but not the Latin.
Think back to when you were around 10 years old .. all those school excercises in geometry involving Pythagoras' theorem (amongst others) .. ;)
There is surprisingly little Latin in direct use in Medicine in day-to-day practise and most of that is in drug an fluid orders but that too is being phased out in favour of more explicit English in order to minimise drug errors.
I never did Latin at school and it certainly was not a prerequisite for any of the degrees that I have.
So, actually, without the translation, I would have been just as confused - there you go.
Tony Jay
Post by: Manoli on January 07, 2017, 07:32:01 am
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60606-hasselblad-acquired-dji.html
Quote
DJI have not acquired Hasselblad.
What they have done is increased their shareholding and will sit on the board alongside Ventizz Capital (existing owners).
DJI have a great deal of technical know how and this is a good thing for Hasselblad.
Speculation about Hasselblad running out of money or communist made cameras is simply that and completely inaccurate.
Hasselblad do not tend to make a habit of replying officially to factually incorrect articles.
Post by: Tony Jay on January 07, 2017, 07:39:12 am
From Nick-T on getdpi:Interesting...
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/60606-hasselblad-acquired-dji.html
Kevin and Nick-T at 20 paces...
Post by: dreed on January 07, 2017, 10:50:21 am
...
Much more concerning, IMO anyway, is the effect the Smartphone will have on the future market for DSLR's. Simply put most current teenagers, those who are Smartphone smart anyway, look at current model DLSR as a piece of dinosaurware. From an image quality point-of-view for their purposes a Smartphone is plenty good enough and from a usability/convenience perspective there is no contest. Simply put, going forward, very, very few of those teenagers, once they reach an age where purchasing a DSLR becomes a realistic option financially, will have any incentive to switch even if they are really interested in image-making.
...
There are a couple of things here...
1) SLRs were much more affordable than DSLRs are today. Back then, you didn't pay for the camera, you paid for the photo.
2) My observations are that DSLRs (at their sales peak) outsold SLRs and that about as many people are now buying DSLRs as used to buy SLRs back before Y2K. Thus one might categorise the high sales period of DSLRs as irregular behaviour by the market. Of course I don't have numbers for that, just observations. Actually, this: https://photographylife.com/is-there-really-anything-wrong-with-digital-camera-sales-volumes (https://photographylife.com/is-there-really-anything-wrong-with-digital-camera-sales-volumes)
3) The big change is for the PaS camera. That is almost completely the smartphone market now.
4) I still see young people with new (entry level) DSLRs. My observation (from talking with them) is that DSLRs are being bought by the same people that bought SLRs - people that want to get more out of their photography than just a "snap".
Post by: adri on January 07, 2017, 01:06:48 pm
This site is not the same anymore after Michael passed.
If I were Perry Oosting, I would be mightily pissed off by this post and the pessimistic tone of it.
Many potential customers will look now at Fuji, Pentax and even the Sigma SD Quattro H.
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 07, 2017, 01:13:00 pm
If suddenly people are going to cancel their pre-orders, whom can Hasselblad blame?
This site is not the same anymore after Michael passed.
If I were Perry Oosting, I would be mightily pissed off by this post and the pessimistic tone of it.
Many potential customers will look now at Fuji, Pentax and even the Sigma SD Quattro H.
Many of us, I for one, have already been looking at the GFX, since it appeared on the scene. Of course, we will look all over for what we need. My X1D order still stands, but this whole delay has given me pause for thought. I can be pretty confident that the Fuji GFX will be what I imagine it do be, yet do worry about whatever Hasselblad is scrambling over. If I better understood the precise problems the X1D is experiencing, I would be more comfortable. As for negativity, this whole many months delay would be hard to construe as positive, right?
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 07, 2017, 02:13:29 pm
Firstly, that Ventizz sold shares to DJI does NOT mean that Hasselblad got a cash injection - only that Ventizz (if they were the seller of the shareholding) did. It's not a payout, which would be a 'dividend', but a straight sale.Certainly what you say can be true, and certainly all we can do is speculate. However, I read into the situation a little differently. It is not uncommon for shareholders to inject capital back into a company. By nature that dilutes the value of any shareholders who do not put in their porportionate share. This is typical for a company who has no ability to raise capital via conventional methods (coporate bonds, loans, etc.)
Secondly, IF Hassy were in need of extra cash, they would normally finance this via either a bank loan, a corporate bond issue or an increase in share capital. The last option being what you refer to as 'a cash injection'. If Hassy didn't have the muscle to make a bond issue attractive - DJI did/would.
There are also various reasons a venture capital firm elects not to infuse the cash, one of which is their funds are also limited. I'm not familiar with Ventizz, but I"ve worked and been involved in a couple of deals through VC buyouts. Most of these firms create a "fund" which is done by raising investment capital from various sources. Many of the funds are limited by an amount as well as time. Once the fund money has been invested or the time limit has been reached, it really doesn't have an easy source of additional funds.
I'm not speculating at all that this was the case, but it is a pretty complex situation. If the investment group didn't really have the resources to help Hasselblad ramp up production but felt that it would help turn the company around, a logical course of action would be to allow themselves to become a minority stakeholder to someone willing to push in the funds to get things going, speculating that after things turned around their valuation would improve.
As I mentioned, based on the trajectory and track record of Hasselblad, this seems to be a positive step, since the current trajectory seemed a little sketchy.
Post by: Christopher on January 07, 2017, 02:20:54 pm
If suddenly people are going to cancel their pre-orders, whom can Hasselblad blame?
This site is not the same anymore after Michael passed.
If I were Perry Oosting, I would be mightily pissed off by this post and the pessimistic tone of it.
Many potential customers will look now at Fuji, Pentax and even the Sigma SD Quattro H.
If Kevin is really so wrong, why is there no comment from H / DJI ? Even today forcing Kevin to correct his statement would be easy IF it actually is so false as some have claimed here.
I was sceptical at the beginning but Hasselblad is not really helping with their silence. It the same BS they followed during the whole X1D preordering delay. It's shameful.
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Post by: NickT on January 07, 2017, 03:44:33 pm
Hasselblad is in a better position than it has been for many years and anyone with an interest in medium format should be very happy about that I think.
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 07, 2017, 04:54:44 pm
I am not speaking about the rumor being conveyed, that I - and a large majority of posters in this thread - see as good news for Hasselblad, myself as one of their new customers, and the whole MF marketplace.
This, on top of a broader on-going reflexion about social media value, has contributed to my decision to take some time off LL forums. I may come around from time to time, or not, we will see what my heart tells me to do.
This is really an incredible family that has helped me learn a lot and I am very thankful to all of you, and of course above all to Michael and Kevin for having made this possible for so many years.
If I can help someone in any way, just drop me a PM.
Have a great one guys.
Cheers,
Bernard
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 07, 2017, 05:13:08 pm
Post by: Osprey on January 07, 2017, 05:31:51 pm
That translates to: $385, $2100 and $3700 in today's currency. They are right in the same ballpark.
There are a couple of things here...
1) SLRs were much more affordable than DSLRs are today. Back then, you didn't pay for the camera, you paid for the photo.
Post by: NickT on January 07, 2017, 11:51:54 pm
I am very sorry to see that Bernard is withdrawing.Me too. It seems to be a function of public forums that decent, smart posters get exhausted by the constant negativity. On my forum I just ban the trolls :)
Post by: JKevinScott on January 08, 2017, 12:20:32 am
Me too. It seems to be a function of public forums that decent, smart posters get exhausted by the constant negativity. On my forum I just ban the trolls :)
In general, I agree with you. In this particular instance, I'd be hard pressed to say who is trolling whom. This whole thread reads like an argument between fans over their favorite sports teams, or folks bickering about religion. Someone said an unfavorable thing about something precious to someone else, and here we all are trying to assert one bit of opinion as more valid than another, some of us attacking folks' credibility, some of us inventing theories and justifications for our differing points of view, and some of us throwing hands up and walking away at the whole uncivil, intractable mess. I personally find it unfortunate that this degree of emotional energy is being spilled over speculation about the future of a camera company. Hasselblad is either going to be fine or it isn't. They're either going to be able to continue to produce products for users or they won't. What anyone on this thread, forum, or site says won't change things one way or the other for Hasselblad's future, although what we continue to say could very much effect how we feel about one another as camera and photography enthusiasts. Getting further at odds with one another would be a real shame. IMHO.
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 08, 2017, 02:41:27 am
Thanks for the insights.
I got the impression that Perry Oosting was quite happy with the initial DJI investment.
I would also suggest that DJI did invest in Hasselblad for mutual benefits, they either feel they can make Hasselblad profitable or they can find synergies motivating the investments.
But, I cannot see that it is not a new Hasselblad that is coming out of this. Let's not forget that the old Hasselblad essentially failed. Companies need to generate income to finance RND and keep owners and working force happy.
Kevin Raber mentions Volvo being taken over by Geely - but it is different thing.
Volvo sold Volvo Cars to Ford and that time Volvo was doing well. But Volvo felt that they couldn't effort the R&D needed to stay competitive. During the auto makers crisis Ford divested assets to stay afloat, without a government buyout. So they sold Volvo to Geely. Some folks didn't like the Chinese involvement and left Volvo. New owners have their say on things. Two of those guys work for my employer now and we have talked about stuff over a cup of coffe…
Volvo doubled production since the Geely takeover and has now four plants, Gothenburg (Sweden), Ghent (Belgium) and two new factories in China. Previous year was their best, ever. So a Swedish company owned by Chinese company can be a story of great success.
Just to say, Volvo always sought a partner to R&D, working with Renault didn't work out. The engineering staff wouldn't cooperate with Renault.
I would suggest that the new mirrorless solutions will be good for medium format. Now it seems it is confirmed that the Fuji GFX will have electronic shutter and electronic first curtain, that is a good thing.
My take is that the X1D doesn't need ES/EFCS (even if Ming Thein once stated it has EFCS, which does little sense without a mechanical second curtain) as it has a leaf shutter and has no mirror inducing vibrations.
Future knows what future will bring…
Best regards
Erik
Certainly what you say can be true, and certainly all we can do is speculate. However, I read into the situation a little differently. It is not uncommon for shareholders to inject capital back into a company. By nature that dilutes the value of any shareholders who do not put in their porportionate share. This is typical for a company who has no ability to raise capital via conventional methods (coporate bonds, loans, etc.)
There are also various reasons a venture capital firm elects not to infuse the cash, one of which is their funds are also limited. I'm not familiar with Ventizz, but I"ve worked and been involved in a couple of deals through VC buyouts. Most of these firms create a "fund" which is done by raising investment capital from various sources. Many of the funds are limited by an amount as well as time. Once the fund money has been invested or the time limit has been reached, it really doesn't have an easy source of additional funds.
I'm not speculating at all that this was the case, but it is a pretty complex situation. If the investment group didn't really have the resources to help Hasselblad ramp up production but felt that it would help turn the company around, a logical course of action would be to allow themselves to become a minority stakeholder to someone willing to push in the funds to get things going, speculating that after things turned around their valuation would improve.
As I mentioned, based on the trajectory and track record of Hasselblad, this seems to be a positive step, since the current trajectory seemed a little sketchy.
Post by: Manoli on January 08, 2017, 04:32:35 am
If that's the case, then I'm not surprised that they had difficulty ramping up production.
Post by: Rob C on January 08, 2017, 04:59:08 am
The basic difference bertween Michael and Kevin might have been this: Michael was apt to remind one that, effectively, we were all sitting in his parlour, and we had damned well better behave like that, and if not, we'd be kicked the hell out. Maybe Kevin is too gentle? The site is his, not ours, and I'm surprised that seems to be going forgotten. Okay, there is now a financial incentive to keep readers at almost all costs (?) but politeness should not be automatically excluded because somebody pays a few bucks a year and thus feels entitled. There are ways of showing dissent and there are ways of being downright rude; they are not the same thing.
Rob C
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 08, 2017, 05:04:52 am
To add an inkling of potentially factual info and some perspective, another rumour site this morning reports that ' According to Hasselblad UK Manager they received 30,000 worldwide pre-orders, expecting only 3,000, for the X1D"
If that's the case, then I'm not surprised that they had difficulty ramping up production.
Which speaks to my comment about scaling. Money, over time, can be helpful, but in the short run simple logistics often win out as the obstacle. If you have hand-assembled products and suddenly need to do it differently, this takes.... well... months to ramp up.
Post by: jeremyrh on January 08, 2017, 05:23:29 am
Me too.
+1 , as they say.
It seems to me that Hasselblad just got new financing that will help their ability to grow. End of. The rest is just someone trying to make mischief from a minor story on the financial pages. However, we live in a world where companies like Breitbart invent news and it goes round the world and is taken as truth. Sad.
Post by: Domenico on January 08, 2017, 05:24:01 am
my decision was to cancel the automatic subscription to LULA, the same articles and reports are present on photorumors.com,
no reason to pay for such type of suppositions.
Happy New Year !
Post by: Christopher on January 08, 2017, 05:26:47 am
Here, if it weren't true, Hasselblad failed once again gloriously in their communications.
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 08, 2017, 10:17:00 am
My impression is that the tone here is quite cultivated. There are some rules for acceptable behaviour and some of those who has broken the rules are no longer on LuLa. On the other hand I don't think LuLa ever intended to have censorship and I don't think Kevin or Chris have the intention to check each and every posting.
I hope that Bernard will be back and tells us all about his experience with the Hasselblad H6D.
Best regards
Erik
I didn't read Bernard to say he was taking a break from LuLa because of the current controversy; people can and do become a little fed up with running essentially the same conversation over and over again, and even though specific people can wind one up to the point where one either ignores them or just says sod off, I'm done with this crap, exactly as has happened to me a few times, there is the other point to make, and it's this: LuLa takes up a lot of time if you contribute often and with some deeper interest in photography itself, not simply as a gear nerd. For me, that time can sometimes be better spent making pictures or just walking and realising how damned fortunate one is to be where one is, free from city fumes, city crime and city people who can be a pain in the proverbial ass if they come on with the superior bit. Breaks from people are often as good as holidays.
The basic difference bertween Michael and Kevin might have been this: Michael was apt to remind one that, effectively, we were all sitting in his parlour, and we had damned well better behave like that, and if not, we'd be kicked the hell out. Maybe Kevin is too gentle? The site is his, not ours, and I'm surprised that seems to be going forgotten. Okay, there is now a financial incentive to keep readers at almost all costs (?) but politeness should not be automatically excluded because somebody pays a few bucks a year and thus feels entitled. There are ways of showing dissent and there are ways of being downright rude; they are not the same thing.
Rob C
Post by: landscapephoto on January 08, 2017, 10:45:58 am
To add an inkling of potentially factual info and some perspective, another rumour site this morning reports that ' According to Hasselblad UK Manager they received 30,000 worldwide pre-orders, expecting only 3,000, for the X1D"
If that's the case, then I'm not surprised that they had difficulty ramping up production.
If that number is true, or even remotely true, it changes a lot of things. Basically, it means that Hasselblad invented a new market.
The number of MF cameras sold globally was estimated to be around 6000 by Leica in 2003: this is the original interview (http://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2013/05/08/how-leica-camera-is-reinventing-the-medium-format-market-on-its-own-terms/2/):
There are no industry-wide figures, but we think the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year – worldwide, for all brands. We are not yet the market leader (I estimate Phase One to have 40-45% market share), but we already have 20% share – and this is only after 3 years after introduction.
Basically, in 2013, Hasselblad was selling about 2000-3000 H4D cameras a year. That is also consistent with their published revenue. Now, what this rumour is telling is that:
1: Hasselblad was expecting to double their market share with the X1D (3000 units planned)
2: Hasselblad is actually expanding their market 10 times (30000 units ordered!).
I find this hard to believe but if it is true it will change a lot of things. Basically, the MF market was changed overnight. It also sheds a completely different light on the DJI merger.
Post by: Domenico on January 08, 2017, 10:56:35 am
Here, if it weren't true, Hasselblad failed once again gloriously in their communications.
Did Hasselblad has hurt you when you were young ?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 08, 2017, 11:05:49 am
In that case they may have found a clondyke… but it will be a long wait for a lot of buyers.
Estimates for all the MFD market used to around 10 000 cameras a year.
Best regards
Erik
To add an inkling of potentially factual info and some perspective, another rumour site this morning reports that ' According to Hasselblad UK Manager they received 30,000 worldwide pre-orders, expecting only 3,000, for the X1D"
If that's the case, then I'm not surprised that they had difficulty ramping up production.
Post by: mecrox on January 08, 2017, 12:13:08 pm
Basically, in 2013, Hasselblad was selling about 2000-3000 H4D cameras a year. That is also consistent with their published revenue. Now, what this rumour is telling is that:
1: Hasselblad was expecting to double their market share with the X1D (3000 units planned)
2: Hasselblad is actually expanding their market 10 times (30000 units ordered!).
How many of those orders were firm, as distinct from commitment-free and perhaps cost-free "pre-orders" of the Internet kind? Of course one would want Hasselblad to sell as many cameras as possible and do well, but these days it must be hard for companies to work out how much of all the interest and general hype is really going to translate into solid sales.
Post by: Manoli on January 08, 2017, 12:49:29 pm
In that case they may have found a clondyke…
With so little verifiable information available, I'm not sure I'd go around calling anyone a clondyke - yet. But it's starting to paint an entirely different picture to the sensationalist, 'doom & gloom' tone of the original article.
The market may have been 6 or 10,000 units a year, but
(a) I doubt it was that big recently - mainly due to price.
(b) There's a market shift, whereas EU and the USA were the largest MF (read: Leica) cllent base, it's now the Far East.
(c) That a new 'class' of camera, at a substantially lower price point, has created havoc with previous 'supply & demand' curves.
As a rough guide, a 2-lens 50MP MF camera will now cost around US$15,000. When Fuji hit the market, perhaps another 30% lower again. How much was it at at the beginning of the year , (Pentax excluded) - approximately double? A most basic PhaseOne XF IQ150 kit (single 80mm lens) was US$33,000 , an XF IQ350 US$ 41,000 and later a H6D50C around US$29,000 (?) - all excluding tax.
.. but these days it must be hard for companies to work how much [...] is really going to translate into solid sales.
That's the question, not just for Hasselblad but also Fujifilm.
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 08, 2017, 01:13:41 pm
Post by: Christopher on January 08, 2017, 01:57:21 pm
So so so, reading this I understand what kind of people are talking in this forum.
Did Hasselblad has hurt you when you were young ?
Yes they really did. I never quite got over it.
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Post by: Roger Jupiter on January 08, 2017, 06:02:37 pm
Sales are about $30M a year .
They expected 3000 orders for the X1D .
A full kit at retail of the X1d is about $15,000. A wholesale (reported amount for Hb as a sale ) would be about $10,000 per kit .
So 3000 orders would be $30M in sales ? 30,000 orders would be $300M .
the x1d is hand made in sweden by a workforce that has been making primarily H bodies . The X1d requires establishment of a new production process to handle the increased volume and product differences.
No gloom and doom here ..just fact checking a few comments .
Post by: chrisschmidphoto on January 08, 2017, 07:55:45 pm
I'm not only surprised, but quite disappointed by your article. Why are you engaging in spreading rumors, as if you were a boulevard journalist? Why don't you let the involved companies announce the possible deal themselves?
I'd be much more interested in the review on the X1D you promised last year. Now that would be valuable information to photographers. Your piece on the possible Hasselbald/DJJ deal is definitely not. As a matter of fact, it sounds as if you took offence by Hasselblad's CEO NOT sharing that information with you personally.
Regards,
Chris
Post by: chrisschmidphoto on January 08, 2017, 10:39:33 pm
To better reply to this type of "information"
my decision was to cancel the automatic subscription to LULA, the same articles and reports are present on photorumors.com,
no reason to pay for such type of suppositions.
Happy New Year !
Well, after some consideration, I cancelled my annual payment to LuLa as well. I will not support 'journalism' of this sort.
Post by: landscapephoto on January 09, 2017, 03:00:25 am
I must misunderstand HB s reported numbers . All of these I picked up from this thread and others ...would be helpful just to gain perspective . Please jump in and correct me.
Sales are about $30M a year .
They expected 3000 orders for the X1D .
A full kit at retail of the X1d is about $15,000. A wholesale (reported amount for Hb as a sale ) would be about $10,000 per kit .
So 3000 orders would be $30M in sales ? 30,000 orders would be $300M .
the x1d is hand made in sweden by a workforce that has been making primarily H bodies . The X1d requires establishment of a new production process to handle the increased volume and product differences.
No gloom and doom here ..just fact checking a few comments .
Yes, these figures seem about right (and consistent with the numbers reported before the X1D was announced).
Post by: landscapephoto on January 09, 2017, 03:05:26 am
Well, after some consideration, I cancelled my annual payment to LuLa as well. I will not support 'journalism' of this sort.
There is something else which is implied by the reported number of 30000 ordered units: if that number is true, then this forum and the associated articles have become irrelevant. Lula may have been close to capture the audience of the majority of the MF users (especially tech cams users) in the USA at the time when worldwide MF annual sales were around 6000 units a year. But the majority of the 30000 users did not come from lula, the forum does not have that many active members.
The figures of 30000 units changes everything.
Post by: Rob C on January 09, 2017, 05:01:06 am
Well it sure does. What with a rash of aggressive posts from several low-posting writers suddenly breaking through the woodwork and making declarations of war on LuLa, I'm lead to suspect that one of the changes referred to above is that a fresh conspiracy is being hatched! It will be fascinating to see how that pans out. Will the Rollei people suddenly break their silence and join ranks with Exakta and Bronica in fresh accusations of malice aforethought? Is Kodak planning a lawsuit? Will Santa panic and fill every sock with a complete kit of Hassy stuff in the model of your desires and/or fantasies?
Furthermore, and worst of all, after all these years of visiting LuLa and adding my couple of cents-worth most days, I'm ashamed not to have realised that its sole raison d'être all along has been to foster sales of MF cameras! Silly me - to think I'd imagined it to be about talking and taking snaps, about considering the work of photographers one admires, looking at fellow snapper's images... oh dear, what a fool I've been all this long while! Life can never be the same - I feel cheated! I want my years back! I want a free Brand X! Never mind that I was taught how to calibrate my monitors, forget that I picked up a lot of information about doing things with Photoshop; that counts for nothing, because what counts is that the owner of this dreadful site has not unfailingly kissed the right ass! Opinion on which may be the right ass will inevitably vary from furious scribe to enraged scribe, and certainly ensure this poor owner will have to spend a lot of contrite time on his knees if he's to keep the fans happy! On the other hand, as his predecessor had sometimes remarked, and I paraphrase: "I may just close the place down and get on with my life without the agro." I'm sure it's a doable option. Which I hope he isn't tempted to pursue. Geez, what would I do all day? Which leads me to wonder: in whose interests would such an event be?
For my part, the sooner the self-righteous moaners go, the better! I shall grieve them in private silence.
Rob C
Post by: mecrox on January 09, 2017, 05:40:04 am
There is something else which is implied by the reported number of 30000 ordered units: if that number is true, then this forum and the associated articles have become irrelevant. Lula may have been close to capture the audience of the majority of the MF users (especially tech cams users) in the USA at the time when worldwide MF annual sales were around 6000 units a year. But the majority of the 30000 users did not come from lula, the forum does not have that many active members.
The figures of 30000 units changes everything.
It all comes across as a storm in a teacup. The general assumption (right or wrong) seems to be that Hasselblad need some fresh investment because they have come up with a cracking product which promises to be a hit. Good for them. The shock horror seems to be that the fresh funds are coming from a Chinese company well outside the stuffy realms of the traditional camera industry. Well good for that company too. With any luck they will provide a high-energy shot in the arm and God knows the traditional camera industry needs a few of those, having proved almost incapable of reforming itself. In my view, the figure of "30,000 units" is a red herring. Unless Hasselblad were to issue an audited figure, which they never will, we have no idea whether that figure is even slightly accurate and will translate into real sales. Given the level of hype and commitment-free pre-ordering that goes on across the internet, in truth it is very hard to believe that the figure is accurate at all. Even then, a portion of the alleged pre-orders may well be profiteers anticipating a shortage who intend to resell at above the asking price the next day. But even if the figure is wildly inaccurate, little is changed: there's a big hit in the offing, fresh funds are needed to produce it, and new investment has been secured. Sounds good news all round, TBH. FWIW, Ming Thein who is a Hasselblad ambassador has posted an article about the story (https://blog.mingthein.com/2017/01/09/on-the-whole-hasselblad-dji-thing/) on his blog.
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 09, 2017, 07:03:32 am
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 09, 2017, 07:17:09 am
Post by: LesPalenik on January 09, 2017, 07:52:34 am
Russian Krasnogorsky Zavod camera factory has been contemplating an outright purchase of Hasselblad, redesign it with a built-in extra sensitive mike and a long-range transmitter, and sell millions of units under a Zenitblad product label. But after a decade-long preparation they decided to go after another low-volume producer, naming the new camera Laika, honouring their first cosmonaut.
New luxury camera (http://petapixel.com/2016/02/12/russian-zenit-camera-coming-back-battle-leica-luxury/)
A declassified report was released to the public on Friday, asserting that Vladimir Putin ordered the Hasselblad leak operation to get Lula compromised. And it's working - two disgruntled Lula subscribers already cancelled their subscriptions in mid term and thus reduced Lula 2017 operating revenue by at least ten dollars.
More info about Laika (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2367681.stm)
Post by: Domenico on January 09, 2017, 08:23:17 am
Could be much worse!
Off course It could...
Post by: vjbelle on January 09, 2017, 08:35:44 am
I blame Trump, but there again who in their right mind doesn't?
My God..... 8 pages of gibberish and now a Trump hater!! Why don't you stick to the topic and keep your political thoughts to yourself.... OK Klaban?
Victor
Post by: DrakeJ on January 09, 2017, 09:07:57 am
Post by: Krug on January 09, 2017, 09:23:16 am
Can we PLEASE get back to the polite, reasoned, factually based discussion of photography that has distinguished Lula from most photography sites.
I have been keen reader of this site for more than 10 years and would be very sad indeed if it were to lose its traditional tone.
Post by: vjbelle on January 09, 2017, 09:38:25 am
I'm many things but certainly not a Trump hatter!
But hey, get back to me when you can spell.
How silly of me.... naughty keyboard! Please carry on with your brilliant posts.... soon you may make it to Sophomore status.
Post by: pegelli on January 09, 2017, 09:43:15 am
So have I but it would also be very sad if it were to lose its sense of fun.I agree, fun and humour are great.
Discussions are great.
Differences of opinion are great.
But why some people need to lower themselves to personal attacks is beyond me. It's only undermining their own credibility, totally useless and not in the spirit of this site.
Post by: Rob C on January 09, 2017, 09:44:26 am
...Geez, what would I do all day?...
Rob, after twelve years and over 15,000 posts on an internet forum I would have thought you could find something meaningful.
Seriously, you write particularly well and you're no slouch with a camera in your hand. I'd be first in line for that retrospective exhibition and book.
Forgive me, just the musings of a crazed, self-righteous moaner and newbie. ;-)
Happy New Year, my friend.
Hey, Keith!
And a public, Happy New Year to you too! I see we both need forgiveness for the same set of sins!
Books, exhibitions, wonderful notions both, but who wants to offer me either of those goodies? During my last prolonged sabbatical (sadly, an unpaid one) I put together a book concept - my second - and at the end, it hit exactly the same buffers as did the first one. I have become convinced that only if you have a world-wide name (and a little notoriety helps too) can any publisher be sane and publish your photo-book at the same time. I have zero interest in vanity publishing, not least because of what the hell to do with even a small bunch of books, which is almost as bad as - if not worse than - finding storage space in an apartment for thirty framed prints for a small exhibition! You may remember me mentioning some years ago - just after Ann died - that I'd been offered a show at a local gallery for a date about six months ahead. One day, I bumped into the lady gallerista (they are all
I think a website will be about as far as it gets. But I enjoy the faith you showed!
;-)
Rob
Post by: LHL on January 09, 2017, 12:14:36 pm
Post by: GrahamBy on January 09, 2017, 12:20:40 pm
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on January 09, 2017, 12:42:40 pm
FWIW, Ming Thein who is a Hasselblad ambassador has posted an article about the story (https://blog.mingthein.com/2017/01/09/on-the-whole-hasselblad-dji-thing/) on his blog.Ming Thein's blog article looks to me to be one of the most balanced and well-written pieces on this issue. Well worth reading.
Post by: landscapephoto on January 09, 2017, 12:46:53 pm
"The figures of 30000 units changes everything."
Well it sure does. What with a rash of aggressive posts from several low-posting writers suddenly breaking through the woodwork and making declarations of war on LuLa, I'm lead to suspect that one of the changes referred to above is that a fresh conspiracy is being hatched! It will be fascinating to see how that pans out. Will the Rollei people suddenly break their silence and join ranks with Exakta and Bronica in fresh accusations of malice aforethought? Is Kodak planning a lawsuit? Will Santa panic and fill every sock with a complete kit of Hassy stuff in the model of your desires and/or fantasies?
Furthermore, and worst of all, after all these years of visiting LuLa and adding my couple of cents-worth most days, I'm ashamed not to have realised that its sole raison d'être all along has been to foster sales of MF cameras! Silly me - to think I'd imagined it to be about talking and taking snaps, about considering the work of photographers one admires, looking at fellow snapper's images... oh dear, what a fool I've been all this long while! Life can never be the same - I feel cheated! I want my years back! I want a free Brand X! Never mind that I was taught how to calibrate my monitors, forget that I picked up a lot of information about doing things with Photoshop; that counts for nothing, because what counts is that the owner of this dreadful site has not unfailingly kissed the right ass! Opinion on which may be the right ass will inevitably vary from furious scribe to enraged scribe, and certainly ensure this poor owner will have to spend a lot of contrite time on his knees if he's to keep the fans happy! On the other hand, as his predecessor had sometimes remarked, and I paraphrase: "I may just close the place down and get on with my life without the agro." I'm sure it's a doable option. Which I hope he isn't tempted to pursue. Geez, what would I do all day? Which leads me to wonder: in whose interests would such an event be?
For my part, the sooner the self-righteous moaners go, the better! I shall grieve them in private silence.
Rob C
There is no need for all this drama. The figure of 30000 units changes everything because it implies that the vast majority of users are not on lula. Now, at the beginning of digital photography, lula was one of the top spots to learn about new technology, new advances and new cameras. Some of the articles here were amongst the most popular all over the internet. Lula was the place to be informed and, consequently, lula got some privileged access to info or test cameras, some manufacturers had representatives on the forums, advertisers were interested, etc...
For some reason I am not sure I understand, this is not really the case any more. I don't know where the action has gone and I am not saying it is lula's fault. Probably they could not have done it much differently, the Internet is full of once active forums deserted by their users.
Now, because the forums they are used to are slowly losing traction, some photographers believe that the entire industry is in crisis. It appears to make sense that there should be less photographers, particularly less MF photographers, if the place you meet them appears to be less and less active. But if the sales figure is true, we should realise that there are actually a lot more photographers willing to spend the price of a car on a MF camera. That changes everything. We just don't know exactly what has changed yet.
Post by: landscapephoto on January 09, 2017, 12:48:23 pm
The 30,000 figure is way far from being accurate so put that one to sleep.
If you could share a more accurate figure I would be interested.
Post by: speedyk on January 09, 2017, 01:09:41 pm
Post by: tonywong on January 09, 2017, 09:50:53 pm
Ming Thein's blog article looks to me to be one of the most balanced and well-written pieces on this issue. Well worth reading.
+1, would subscribe again. ;D
Post by: hubell on January 10, 2017, 11:05:50 am
"Hasselblad, which was founded in 1941, was once known for making the most advanced cameras on the market. Their cameras were even used by NASA throughout the 60s, meaning theirs was the technology used to create those iconic moon photographs from the Apollo missions. DJI is the privately held, venture-backed leader in a burgeoning new hardware segment, consumer and commercial drones.
While Hasselblad’s cameras are known as some of the best on the market, they are prohibitively expensive running anywhere from a few thousand dollars to more than $40,000 for a single SLR body. Questions are now swirling about how DJI will use, and possibly even manufacture, Hasselblad’s cameras.
Will DJI leave the business of Hasselblad to operate like an independent subsidiary, but continue to ensure its cameras are easily integrated with DJI’s drone rigs? Or will DJI use Hasselblad technology to entirely replace the cameras used in their consumer-level drones like the Phantom and Mavic? Either way, the deal seems like a win for both companies.
DJI’s cameras are actually pretty good, probably best in class, but they’ve been missing the name recognition of a company beloved of professional photographers. This deal provides them with the brand legacy, while also giving them access to some of the best albeit niche camera technology in the world.
And whether they like it or not, Hasselblad’s approach to focusing only on ultra high-end cameras hasn’t exactly paid off. The company has floundered in recent years, and ownership has changed hands multiple times with the most recent being a 2011 acquisition by Ventizz, a European private equity firm. Now they have a formidable parent company in DJI that is a powerhouse both in China and the U.S. with significant manufacturing advantages due to their size."
Strange, that report does not contain the subtext that the barbarians (i.e., the Chinese) are at the gate ready to trash the iconic brand, and the employees are already fleeing in mortal fear.
Kevin Raber is, of course, free to spin the rumor any way he wants. Just spare me the sanctimonious crap that he cares deeply about the medium format digital market and wants to see the few remaining companies in the space prosper so there is competition, because competition is good for us as photographers. Anyone who actually did care would not have spun the rumor the way he did. After all, here is what happens when you don't have competition. You have Phase One as the 800 lb. gorilla in the medium format digital market selling only very high priced solutions for $40,000+ for a camera body and lenses whose sheer size and weight are just a bad joke at this point for many of us. So who innovates and develops a radically different approach with the X1D and the GFX? Not Phase One!
Post by: pegelli on January 10, 2017, 02:26:56 pm
Strange, that report does not contain the subtext that the barbarians (i.e., the Chinese) are at the gate ready to trash the iconic brand, and the employees are already fleeing in mortal fear.Neither did Kevin's article ;)
Post by: NickT on January 10, 2017, 03:53:36 pm
Interesting...
Kevin and Nick-T at 20 paces...
I don't think so. Kevin of course has very good sources and it is true that DJI have increased their holding in Hasselblad. I suspect that contracts are still being sorted and that once the legal stuff is tied up we'll hear officially from Hasselblad/DJI.
What I objected in the article was the suggestion that the company is somehow a shadow of it's former self because of the involvement of a mere drone company. No one ever said "Oh RED cameras suck because the guy used to make sunglasses".
DJI is a very successful and technologically savvy company, I think they will bring a great deal to Hasselblad, and I think the scare-mongering around Chinese involvement is just that (don't forget Shriro is Chinese!).
2016 was a huge year for Hasselblad and I think this year will be even bigger, can't wait to get hold of my X1D!
Cheers
Nick-T
Post by: hubell on January 12, 2017, 04:35:49 pm
There are five articles in january, four are member-only, one is open to all readers.
Sometimes it is the littlest of things that tell us so much.
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 12, 2017, 05:33:40 pm
Post by: kers on January 12, 2017, 06:45:49 pm
That'll be a Phase One mirrorless then.Or some less mirrorless less
This Hasselblad seems Cameraless
less is more ;)
Post by: hubell on January 12, 2017, 10:24:59 pm
Or some less mirrorless less
This Hasselblad seems Cameraless
less is more ;)
Dr. Seuss, I presume.
Post by: Domenico on January 13, 2017, 03:54:12 am
I don't report on rumors.
Ridiculous.
Post by: JeffS on January 13, 2017, 10:01:37 am
I really like the X1D camera. The review is well underway and will be published as soon as possible.
I can no longer find the comments you wrote in a recent X1D article that you experienced a number of frustrations and that the GFX was more likely to be the 'workhorse', with features that could well overshadow the X1D. Were those words edited out or did I just miss finding them?
I hope all this recent controversy over Hasselblad won't cause you to ease up on honest and direct commentary regarding the X1D.
Jeff
Post by: Kevin Raber on January 13, 2017, 10:39:25 am
Post by: Rob C on January 13, 2017, 11:35:26 am
Ming Thein's blog article looks to me to be one of the most balanced and well-written pieces on this issue. Well worth reading.
God, Chris how I'd like to agree with you!
But:
" I really don’t see why it’s such a big deal in photography; we don’t beat our breasts and pull out our hair when our washing-machine manufacturer moves production or gets bought over."......Ming T.
That is 100% wrong!
We had a Zanussi washing machine for over fifteen years that did a perfect wash in about an hour. Then if failed and parts were not available. So I bought another Zanussi. It has screwed up my days, never mind my wash.
After much hunting, I discovered a Rapid Wash setting (on the left side of the choices! - who'd look for enlightenment there?), which does the job in about 30mins but only accepts half the weight of wash. Worse, for a very hard water area, the softener tablet only dissolves about half of itself in that time (and never completely even on a full run), so not full protection for the pipes etc. So that's no good: better wash longer and protect the system from the hard water.
The normal wash, believe it or not, took three hours the last time I ran it, and as consequence, everything came out beyond crease-resistant nightmares: I have a whole new bunch of wrinkles to play with. Which in winter, as cold doesn't let my T-shirts show, is not too bad, but man you should see the mess it's made of curtains! A previous setting did the job in two hours, so I must try to figure out what that setting might have been - it's all about combinations of settings: not only are there settings, but sub-settings to those. Digital camera makers have set one helluva bad precedent. Zanussi Lindo 100, in case anybody knows - and can pass on - a magical setting that also runs a full load in an hour!
I simply don't trust the sytem enough to switch on, leave it running and go out to do whatever I have to do, and come home calmly expecting the job to be done and no floods or whatever waiting to greet me. So wash-day is a lost day. At my age, every day is an important one, even if they are generally all the same - in good periods.
No idea who owns the company, whether it's Chinese or Swedish or even, as I might be given to imagining, Italian money.
Now, is that flaw in Ming's argument enough to discredit his point of view?
;-)
Rob
Post by: john beardsworth on January 13, 2017, 02:04:15 pm
Quote
raber+workhorse site:luminous-landscape.com
So that's any occurrences of both raber and workhorse on this site. This search led to this thread (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=115295.0) and looking for the word "workhorse" took me to the following quote: "I'm guessing that the GFX will be the real workhorse". Who said it? None other than JeffS.
Post by: JeffS on January 13, 2017, 02:14:59 pm
But Kevin's comment about some GFX features overshadowing the X1D was made in a forum post by Kevin on Dec 29th (regarding the X1D GPS), as follows: "Based on my limited use with the Fuji GFX I think that the GFX may have some features, that will over shadow the X1D. ."
I also recall Kevin saying that he had some frustrations with the X1D that he would clarify in his upcoming review. Don't remember where.
Jeff
Post by: hubell on January 13, 2017, 02:22:47 pm
(Just kidding, Jeff.)
Post by: JeffS on January 13, 2017, 02:31:06 pm
Wow. It's one thing to hear what you want to hear, but still another to say what you want to hear and then attribute it to the author of a camera review.
(Just kidding, Jeff.)
Attribute it to old age. Three things were said (written) about the X1D in a short period of time, each of which resonated with me. Unfortunately only 2 of the 3 were mentioned by Kevin, and the most potentially controversial one was in a forum comment (see above), not in a featured article.
Shoot me.
Jeff
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 13, 2017, 03:41:58 pm
If I may comment, I would admit that I didn't really like the tone of your article. Now, you clearly have more information than most of us.
My feeling is like this:
- I am definitively out of medium format
- So I am just a very interested bystander
There are some reasons I quit MFD and the X1D goes a long way to cure those problems. So does the Fuji GFX, by the way, especially now that I have seen reports they have EFCS and ES.
I was not so positive at Ventizz taking over Hasselblad and I feel those blinged up Sonys proved my point. In your interview, Perry Oosting was very happy having DJI as a partner. DJI is a technology company and I would guess that their investment is more about fascination with photography than short term earnings.
So, I would regard the DJI investment as a positive from where I stand.
Sure, DJI is a far east company. They may have a different view on production efficiency than traditional Hasselblad and that may mean a shake up/wake up for Hasselblad.
My understanding is that Japanese production methods focus on doing things right from the beginning, while the European way is to adjust in assembly.
I can mention that I once in my youth was working at an assembly line, putting together chain saws for a then famous Swedish maker. We had a lot of issues with screws, coming from a Swedish company, "Bulten Kanthal". After some time they switched to a Spanish maker of screws and many problems were resolved. The crankshafts were made in by our company and they had incredibly bad tolerances and I had the pleasure to discover that. Once you had a bad crankshaft, you had to dismount it using a hammer. The bearings of the next chain saw in line probably overheated while you were "fixing the issue". So each failure affected at least two products.
Doing things right the first time is a great approach…
Best regards
Erik
Jeff, Haven't edited any of those but I doubt I would have said that at this point. I believe very soon we'll be able compare specs for ourselves for both systems. I have been working on the review and will do so all weekend. Stay tuned.
Post by: JeffS on January 13, 2017, 04:39:41 pm
Hi Jeff,
If I may comment, I would admit that I didn't really like the tone of your article. Now, you clearly have more information than most of us.
I assume you meant Kevin.
Jeff
Post by: Christopher on January 13, 2017, 06:17:31 pm
However, currently I'm not interested in any of these cameras. It's just a to large step back IQ wise. A second generation with a modern CMOS could be quite interesting. If Sony doesn't kill them with a 75MP 35 chip.
All in all I love what is happening. Everything is in Motion and I honestly wish every camera company the best, because there is nothing worse then no competition. (See the adobe stuff)
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 13, 2017, 11:39:19 pm
Erik
I assume you meant Kevin.
Jeff
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 14, 2017, 06:28:06 am
I think we are spinning.
Amen to that!
Post by: TravelPhotographyGuru on January 16, 2017, 02:01:21 am
Post by: Rob C on January 16, 2017, 05:27:13 am
Great article Kevin. I'd be nervous if I was one of those folk who recently ordered a new Hasselblad camera. However, I tend to adopt a positive outlook, more often than not, at times like this. I was at Kodak for 8 years towards the end of the glory days at 'old yellow' so I'm particularly concerned for the loyal and hard working staff at Hasselblad. With luck management will be given money and what ever else it is they need to get on with the job under their new and progressive CEO. This is one venerable old company that I want to see survive, indeed to thrive.
Except that it's not the same venerable old company: as ownerships go through change, so does any company. The company Victor had could not remain that way after him; let's face it - even our kids are never clones of ourselves, our values and our dreams. Apart from that, times change, customers chage, formats, systems and the usefulness of all those factors come and go. Being with Kodak, you should know that more than most.
And no, I'm no Hassy-basher: I loved my 500C and 500CM more than any other cameras except the Nikon F, with which they concurrantly shared my emotions.
Of course I wish the company well, even if I will probably never again feel able to afford to indulge myself of their products.
Rob C
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 27, 2017, 02:23:18 am
https://www.dpreview.com/news/0017250847/hasselblad-ceo-oosting-to-leave-next-week
Best regards
Erik
Post by: NickT on January 27, 2017, 04:16:18 am
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 27, 2017, 07:47:35 am
Perry has been a great CEO but has decided it is time to step down, he will be sorely missed.
Hi Nick,
The timing of it is just too coincidental with the majority stake takeover by DJI to be (the job is done) credible.
I'm afraid this may cause a huge amount of pre-order cancellations, which would be a shame.
Cheers,
Bart
Post by: NickT on January 27, 2017, 02:26:43 pm
Hi Nick,
The timing of it is just too coincidental with the majority stake takeover by DJI to be (the job is done) credible.
I'm afraid this may cause a huge amount of pre-order cancellations, which would be a shame.
Cheers,
Bart
Sorry Bart but people are not going to change their mind about buying a camera because of a management change... Now they are finally shipping decent numbers I think they'll see an uptick in orders.
Post by: ndevlin on January 27, 2017, 05:52:51 pm
This is very disappointing development. Perry was one of the few CEOs in the industry who "got it". His thinly-veiled ouster by the new ownership does not bode particularly well, as I am sure it will have a negative morale impact in what is a very small company.
As one of the few people who's shot with an X1D, I can say they have made a beautiful r/evolutionary (if still flawed) camera, and Perry gets the credit. I wish him well.
- N.
Post by: scyth on January 27, 2017, 06:08:46 pm
Sorry Bart but people are not going to change their mind about buying a camera because of a management change... Now they are finally shipping decent numbers I think they'll see an uptick in orders.
uptick in cancellations and uptick in orders will go hand in hand