Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: SeanBK on July 11, 2006, 04:55:03 pm

Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: SeanBK on July 11, 2006, 04:55:03 pm
Has any of old RG Forum guys have visited the memory lane? A brand new format, absolutely confusing & just hate it. Now it costs only $15 to be a member. That's nice for all the guys/gals who forked over $25/$35 to be a "charter" mamber. I am glad I kept my money.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: alfin on July 12, 2006, 06:24:32 am
Quote
Has any of old RG Forum guys have visited the memory lane? A brand new format, absolutely confusing & just hate it. Now it costs only $15 to be a member. That's nice for all the guys/gals who forked over $25/$35 to be a "charter" mamber. I am glad I kept my money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sean, please do spread correct info! The $15 is a 3 month trial period. Also, the new look (which I think is quite cool by the way) can be "reset" to default.

BR/Lars
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: SeanBK on July 12, 2006, 08:06:03 am
That is rather strange. Originally the membership of the Forum was on the annual basis. On the current cover page it lists as $15. Than if you try to register after agreeing to terms AND giving up your name, e-mail.....usual standard info for registering still the info reads $15. So what you are saying is after registering when the billing portion comes, thats when the potential purchaser is told that $15 covers only 3 months or at the end of 3 months the membership expires?
   I still like the old Forum home page, as it quickly told you where you may want to go with the very next click...Canon, Nikon, Lighting and the infamous and now dead M.F..
  You are entitled to your opinion & so am I. But do study L.L Forum, that tells you why this IS the best.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: ericevans on July 13, 2006, 10:27:37 pm
I think they are getting desperate . They are offering free lifetime membership if you make 30 or more posts a month . Some of the individual topics don't get 30 responses a month so I believe they are in trouble . I looked at the forums this week and out of 34 topic areas only 10 had a post made on that day , that is really sad considering what the forum once was . Let them die .
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: Jack Flesher on July 13, 2006, 11:54:41 pm
Quote
I think they are getting desperate . They are offering free lifetime membership if you make 30 or more posts a month . Some of the individual topics don't get 30 responses a month so I believe they are in trouble . I looked at the forums this week and out of 34 topic areas only 10 had a post made on that day , that is really sad considering what the forum once was . Let them die .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70626\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agreed.  A forum is only as good as the membership that posts -- and they failed to listen to that membership.  It appears that was a disasterous mistake for them.

Cheers,
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: ericevans on July 14, 2006, 07:40:07 am
I have traded a few e-mails with Drew and have told him that if he keeps it closed it will wither and die as evidenced by what we are seeing on there . Sadly I believe he is there to only make money . I have read his wedding forums as well and they seem to have a lack of posts compared to another wedding site I saw which was free . I would think about posting there again and even pay to help with the costs BUT ONLY if it opens back up the way it used to be and keep the moderators out of the way of good conversations .
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: ericevans on July 14, 2006, 07:59:48 am
One more thing . http://www.prophotowedding.com/weddingforum/ (http://www.prophotowedding.com/weddingforum/) Go to the link to their wedding forum and look at the discussions or the lack of discussions to be exact . They have around 250 people that can post according to the stats at the bottom of the page and look at the number of the posts they have had recently . Look at the stats on the prophoto forum and they have 1200+ users and no posts either . Look at the number of posts on the pro photo site and realize that most of the posts were made in the old days before they took over and look at how many more poeple were registered . Now look at the wedding forum and see the total number registered and the number of active and there is the reason both forums are going no where .
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: Ed Jack on July 14, 2006, 08:03:54 am
Quote
Has any of old RG Forum guys have visited the memory lane? A brand new format, absolutely confusing & just hate it. Now it costs only $15 to be a member. That's nice for all the guys/gals who forked over $25/$35 to be a "charter" mamber. I am glad I kept my money.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
without being a kill-joy, I suspect that critisining other sites/forums on THIS FORUM might put Michael in an uncomfortable position. As MR doesn't moderate except in extreme situations, he might be too polite to pull this thread, but really I think we need to act responsibly instead?

Having said that, the downfall of ROB's site/forums (which WAS the real strength) is disappointing. Not all hte good posters there persisted over here, or  least are too busy doing photogrpahy to talk about it    

I love Uwe's site over at outback digital too, and the omni blog sites are where some of our more talented peers exibit!  

Ed
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: pwgphoto on July 18, 2006, 09:09:46 am
I would not know about the new format since I have not visited the site since the days after the take over and fight to keep it open to the public.  I think that may be the case for a lot of old posters there.  There are too many sites that give out good info for free and have great people posting for them to have done what was done to the RG forum.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: SeanBK on July 18, 2006, 10:48:06 am
I have an unquenching thirst to improve myself. All the fights are really H2O under the bridge, but like any consumer, I just don't believe the quantity & quality of informations dispensed is high enough to justify that forum to be anything but free. Please, no offense directed to fine loyal (in this day loyal is indeed a rare word) members who do respond graciously. It is darn shame, as technology is getting more complex & is changing more frequently, so as a consumer we need to rely on more unbiased opinions, clarifications, corrections & amplifications.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: Jack Flesher on July 18, 2006, 12:40:46 pm
Personally, I feel sorry for forum administrators and owners.

Free is fine... but it all then comes down to who and how carries out the maintenance of said site and how do they get supported?

Michael sells videos -- and how many of us subscribe or even purchase a special one or one of Michael's books?

Uwe (outbackphoto) sells e-books -- and how many of us buy them?

Photo.net asks for donations -- and how many of us give them?

Not many, I suspect...

Rob Galbraith was *NOT* making any money off the forums, they were eating up large amounts of his time resources (and I suspect some of his financial resources) and so he decided he needed to sell them.  Now enters the new owner -- who *PAID* RG for it -- wanting to keep them alive and so thinks, "I'll just charge a small fee to help recoup my costs and support the site, surely everybody will understand."  Well, it is obvious we didn't understand.  

How come we didn't?  I agree they did not market their concept very well at all, nor did they enter into it gently, but the simple answer is it boiled down to propriety -- we all felt it was *OUR* site, not the new owners.  Heck, he's a wedding photographer for crying out loud...  

Shame on us.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: James Russell on July 18, 2006, 02:55:28 pm
Quote
Personally, I feel sorry for forum administrators and owners.

Free is fine... but it all then comes down to who and how carries out the maintenance of said site and how do they get supported?

Michael sells videos -- and how many of us subscribe or even purchase a special one or one of Michael's books?

Uwe (outbackphoto) sells e-books -- and how many of us buy them?

Photo.net asks for donations -- and how many of us give them?

Not many, I suspect...

Rob Galbraith was *NOT* making any money off the forums, they were eating up large amounts of his time resources (and I suspect some of his financial resources) and so he decided he needed to sell them.  Now enters the new owner -- who *PAID* RG for it -- wanting to keep them alive and so thinks, "I'll just charge a small fee to help recoup my costs and support the site, surely everybody will understand."  Well, it is obvious we didn't understand. 

How come we didn't?  I agree they did not market their concept very well at all, nor did they enter into it gently, but the simple answer is it boiled down to propriety -- we all felt it was *OUR* site, not the new owners.  Heck, he's a wedding photographer for crying out loud... 

Shame on us.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree

JR
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: ericevans on July 18, 2006, 04:16:13 pm
"Well, it is obvious we didn't understand. "

I don't think that is the problem . Drew came in like a storm trooper and closed it up until you pay . Look at both of his forums where there are topics that have not had a post for weeks . His business model does not work if you want a active forum with information flowing . All the change of ownership has done is to put money in a few peoples pockets and there is nothing wrong with that but the forum has lost all relevance . If the forum would open back up and make it to where poeple could help support it I think it may start moving again . I am a member of several forums where I pay a fee to post but it is of my own free will and those who want or can pay do so . The forums that have adopted this model are active and filled with information and the owner makes enough to pay for the site . If you are running a forum only for profit it is not going very far . "Members: 30,307, Active Members: 1,398 " All these people and still no active posting going on . I think Drew is the one that does not understand .
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: MarkKay on July 18, 2006, 05:29:58 pm
I see both sides here but I do believe that if they would have made the site free for a short time and even state upfront that there would be a nominal charge implemented over time, there may have been more folks willing to join or remain on that forum. It surely would have influenced me.  I do pay for photo.net and several other sites that I frequent.  From the standpoint of Rob or anyone else not making any money to maintain the site, I am not so sure.  There were plenty of advertisements on RGs site.  Granted there was a lot of other information besides the forums, but the traffic to the site is clearly increased with the forum and I suspect the money paid for advertising is directly related to the traffic.   Whether or not it is cost effective considering the time and effort is a matter of choice for  the webmaster.

Nonetheless, in the end I am disappointed about the whole turn of events. There was a lot of good information being presented on that forum that is sadly missed. Mark

Quote
"Well, it is obvious we didn't understand. "

I don't think that is the problem . Drew came in like a storm trooper and closed it up until you pay . Look at both of his forums where there are topics that have not had a post for weeks . His business model does not work if you want a active forum with information flowing . All the change of ownership has done is to put money in a few peoples pockets and there is nothing wrong with that but the forum has lost all relevance . If the forum would open back up and make it to where poeple could help support it I think it may start moving again . I am a member of several forums where I pay a fee to post but it is of my own free will and those who want or can pay do so . The forums that have adopted this model are active and filled with information and the owner makes enough to pay for the site . If you are running a forum only for profit it is not going very far . "Members: 30,307, Active Members: 1,398 " All these people and still no active posting going on . I think Drew is the one that does not understand .
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Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: James Russell on July 19, 2006, 12:00:35 am
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Nonetheless, in the end I am disappointed about the whole turn of events. There was a lot of good information being presented on that forum that is sadly missed. Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hindsight is 20/20, but looking back I think RG and even Drew underestimated the value of the information that was given freely.

I remember a year or so ago RG featured some guy that had made the transition from film to digital and wrote this whole article like the guy invented the process.  This isn't a knock on the person they featured, but it seemed odd to me to feature someone that had never posted on the forum, while they had people actively giving free and useful information that had amazing resumes.  

I made mention of this to RG and never got a response, which wasn't that unusual.

It was also amazing to me that RG had this wealth of talent that was obviously willing to share, but RG and Company had no inclination to try to capitalize on it, much less even give it anything other than censorship.

Later when Drew took control I don't think he had a complete history of the forums and I would imagine was given some pretty one sided accounts of how things worked and the history of the site.

in a way, it's a shame that someone didn't pick up on this and capitalize on this resource, because in my experience I have never seen any open public discussion that had so much real information backed up  with real life experience.

The photographers that brought substance to that forum are a different breed than most of the self promoters we see in my industry.  

They are working photographers that spend their time shooting and improving their art and business skills and have little time for the one hand clapping style of self promotion that seems to have permeated not only the profession of photography, but life in general.

The fact that they were willing to share openly and freely was a more a testament to their character than to any form of ego or financial self interest.

They are  Pulitzer prize winners, well respected professionals with studios and expereince world wide.  Many of them were some of the ealiest adopters of digital capture and their imagery is seen daily on a global stage.  

I personally know many of these people and I can assure you their character, humor, talent, accomplishments and unselfish attitude is something that is rare in our society and it is a shame that it was under appreciated.

JR
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: SeanBK on July 19, 2006, 03:52:32 pm
Thanks JR for your thoughts. I always enjoyed your input at RG. I daily (actually more than once a day) would check whether you or MT had any new posts. I for one definately learned a lot from your, MT & other regulars' input. I do remember the article you are referring to. It was on RG mainpage for a long time. I always thought it was an real old article, which was regurgitated to fill the space as it certainly did not illuminated anything new, I thought it belonged to history channel.
    I hope you will post often & drag MT over here too. Thanks.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: stevenrk on July 21, 2006, 10:12:09 am
Quote
Hindsight is 20/20, but looking back I think RG and even Drew underestimated the value of the information that was given freely.

...

in a way, it's a shame that someone didn't pick up on this and capitalize on this resource, because in my experience I have never seen any open public discussion that had so much real information backed up  with real life experience.

The photographers that brought substance to that forum are a different breed than most of the self promoters we see in my industry. 

They are working photographers that spend their time shooting and improving their art and business skills and have little time for the one hand clapping style of self promotion that seems to have permeated not only the profession of photography, but life in general.

The fact that they were willing to share openly and freely was a more a testament to their character than to any form of ego or financial self interest.

They are  Pulitzer prize winners, well respected professionals with studios and expereince world wide.  Many of them were some of the ealiest adopters of digital capture and their imagery is seen daily on a global stage. 

I personally know many of these people and I can assure you their character, humor, talent, accomplishments and unselfish attitude is something that is rare in our society and it is a shame that it was under appreciated.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71086\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James, all true, but I have to ask why you and others have chosen to stay silent and not start the conversation going in another forum.  There are a number of existing and new forums where your voices would be welcome and your combined experience, insight and good cheer would quickly create a new RG at its best.  This site, the new OpenPhotography and new D64 forums come immediately to mind.

Fair enough that some previous and currrent owners don't get it -- and are unlikely ever to get it.  But why has that meant that you have all taken your marbles and refused to start a new game?  One explanation I've heard is that the key posters on RG's MF have started up a closed site for themselves.  If so, then you have as little sense of the value of inviting in outside and less experienced people who love the medium, as RG did of appreciating the stunning expertise, combined wisdom and willingness to share that you and your colleagues showed.

Steven Kinberg
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: Eric Zepeda on July 21, 2006, 03:16:02 pm
Quote
If so, then you have as little sense of the value of inviting in outside and less experienced people who love the medium, as RG did of appreciating the stunning expertise, combined wisdom and willingness to share that you and your colleagues showed.

Steven Kinberg
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71384\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not so sure about this. I still feel RG and MS blundered massively in recognising what a special place RGMF was(as JR said above), and I can't blame the contributors for taking their dialogue private.

What I am sure of is that we can learn from this experience. MR gives us a very free hand here, as evidenced by this discussion. RGMF wasn't built in a day, and every day I see  here a little more info and traffic. I now own a P25, and have observations and experience that I'm willing to share with others, as well as learn from their experiences in an open exchange. I'll always miss RGMF, but we can continue on with that spirit in mind.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: mcrepsej on July 21, 2006, 04:13:02 pm
This is my first post at this forum.

I have read all your comments and all I can say, is that I realy mis RG forum.

The RG forum Mediumformat was the first site to open to get new or shared member to member information.

If my english was better I would have written a lot more.

McRepsej ..... a P45 owner ;-)
Denmark
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: stevenrk on July 21, 2006, 05:28:44 pm
Quote
I'm not so sure about this. I still feel RG and MS blundered massively in recognising what a special place RGMF was(as JR said above), and I can't blame the contributors for taking their dialogue private.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not suggesting blame.  I agree entirely with the points JR is making about the value of the contributors to RG and about the failure to recognize that value by RG (I'll leave discussion of the new owners to someone else, but it's been said above).  And RG had every right to say "I've had enough, I'm done," just like JR and his colleagues have every right to say "enough of this public stuff, let's just talk amongst ourselves."  But I do feel strongly that the value of public participation, inquiry, points of view, new perspectives, different angles has real value, and to the extent that the RG MF group have taken their marbles and aren't playing in public any more because RG was nasty to them, they're missing something as significant to them as RG missed.  Just my view.

As to participation in this or other forums, other than dropping in and making a comment or two about the past, there has not been on this or the other forums like OpenPhotography any kind of real return.  And it could start up in about a day if the right voices decided to try again to share their views and insights on a public forum.  Fair enough if they don't want to, but too bad for all, including them.
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: alba63 on July 21, 2006, 08:44:36 pm
Quote
They are working photographers that spend their time shooting and improving their art and business skills and have little time for the one hand clapping style of self promotion that seems to have permeated not only the profession of photography, but life in general.

The fact that they were willing to share openly and freely was a more a testament to their character than to any form of ego or financial self interest.
(...)
I personally know many of these people and I can assure you their character, humor, talent, accomplishments and unselfish attitude is something that is rare in our society and it is a shame that it was under appreciated.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71086\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello James, hello all, this (quotoation above) is very much the way I alway perceived the RG MF forum.
Myself - a passionate  but non- professional shooter from Germany - have been a silent reader for a pretty long time of the old RG MF forum, and I can say that I appreciated this attitude described above very much.
I litterally spent hours on the RG archives to read certain "monster threads".
 
It was truly educating and helpful for me, both in a technical sense and also in respect to general professional attitude. The very specific mixture of professional expertise and seriousness, the relaxed atmosphere, humour, decency and absence of personal agendas other than finding/ fighting out the best possible way in MF photography made this place quite special for me (and probably for a lot of other readers, silent like me or actively participating).

I can only thank again James (one from RG who participates in this thread here) for all the useful information and insights, and I really hope very much - I am almost waiting - that eventually there will be a similar place that will create a similar atmosphere in the future. Here, on Uwe Steinmullers place or the new created "Open photography forums".

I read a lot about a "closed non- public list" where a number of former RG members now discuss. I can understand, but it is nevertheless a pity that this goes on invisible to the many who would like just to follow and maybe learn a thing or two....

Well, enough from my part,

greetings,

Bernhard, from Berlin
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: RicAgu on July 22, 2006, 02:29:36 pm
Well,

I guess I'll chime in.  I also feel bad for the new owners of the RG forum.  I hope they did not pay too much or that all was disclosed before the sale.  Because they were told they were buying an SL600 with a V12 and got a Chrysler LeBaron with a body kit and a 4 cylinder engine in it.

Most of the posters like MT, JR, Melvin and Troy had either been banned or left because of the BS that MS was pulling.  The saddest part is we were chatting about photogs we like and JR had mentioned how much he loved Salgado's work likening him to be the God of photography.  Well RG and MS got in a big stink about it.  That really floored me and that is when many people jumped ship.  There were some great shooters on there.  There was Ton from Singapore's endless knowledge of Leaf digital backs and software. A lady from London who had endless knoweledge of interior/architecture shooting with digital and wide angle.  Countless advice on traveling with your gear from guys from Austrailia, JR and others.

I remeber a lady complained that her 14 year old boy would read the forum and was aoffended at some of the remarks.  You have got to be kidding me!

MR seems like a pretty cool guy and i don't think he would ever shut us down.   He understands we are adults and need a place to vent and diasagree.   I also hope that many of the posters will return and post on LL's boards.  I learned so much in my transition to digital when I discovered the RG boards.

look forward to the lively banter.

RA  
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: n1x0n on July 23, 2006, 07:46:44 am
When someone complains about his forums running at loss - thats always funny. That's how you know that someone could use a good marketing advice.

Look at DPReview, FredMiranda, old RG site etc. - none of them is making money on their forums. Actually i'm willing to bet - they all run their forums at total loss. Still forums are good for any website created with profit on mind. Why so?

They are the most powerfull visitor magnet that is known to web marketing, thats why.
We like to read news, reviews and stuff but we LOVE to tell others what we're thinking about these news and reviews. We just can't help it :-). While you may visit some photo-news site once or twice a day - you may visit it more than 10 times if something interesting's going on in the site's forum. That's how RG site used to work. I was going through their homepage about 5-6 times a day - to get to the forums. RG made big mistake, thinking that forum is useless, because it's not generating directly "ad-clicks". Forums were there for them, channeling users back and forth through main page - where "ad-clicks" occur.
Well... now im visiting RG once in 3-4 days, since they are publishing same news everyone else has published the day before.

Forums are excellent promotion tool. Tool, not a product itself - mind that! You can use it to sell, but can't sell it. Pro-photo-bla-bla forums /they are changing names too fast to remember/ will fail, because they have no understanding of this simple web-marketing principle. RG will suffer severe "frequent visitor loss", because of this decision, i'm pretty sure they are already feeling this.

I'm just wandering about the selling price... was it worth it?!
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: William_Good on July 23, 2006, 10:42:05 am
Quote
Well,

snip.........
Most of the posters like MT, JR, Melvin and Troy had either been banned or left because of the BS that MS was pulling.  The saddest part is we were chatting about photogs we like and JR had mentioned how much he loved Salgado's work likening him to be the God of photography.  Well RG and MS got in a big stink about it.  That really floored me and that is when many people jumped ship.  There were some great shooters on there....snip

RA   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hadn't heard the details before, thanks for posting.
A forum is not a "club", and by very definition demands openess & transperency.

I found it more than odd that RG effectively devalued the forums by banning some of the best photogs right before the sale  .


The new owner seemed a bit clueless
about the real value of the forums:  the active participation of very knowledgeable and innovative persons as mentioned above .

LL  is run by a photographer who loves the craft, and it shows.

It's good to see JR posting, I look forward to any of the "banned four"s   posts.

William
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: RicAgu on July 23, 2006, 03:43:09 pm
Wonderful Point!  

That is what I said months ago and many people shot me down.  I would go to RG 5-10 times a day to go to the forums.  I discovered and bought Think Tank photo bags through the site and subsequent accesories.  About $1,500.00 worth of stuff.  Now I go to RG maybe twice a month if that.  I really try to avoid it all together if I can, because of what they did.  MS was just too way up on his morality high horse.

I guess he doesn't have much control of anything in his life so he felt the little power he had there.  Like most bully's in life.

Hope there surviving financially on their own shooting.  Because I can bet that site is over by summer 07'.  I wrote PDN about starting a forum.  Hopefully they will do so.





Quote
When someone complains about his forums running at loss - thats always funny. That's how you know that someone could use a good marketing advice.

Look at DPReview, FredMiranda, old RG site etc. - none of them is making money on their forums. Actually i'm willing to bet - they all run their forums at total loss. Still forums are good for any website created with profit on mind. Why so?

They are the most powerfull visitor magnet that is known to web marketing, thats why.
We like to read news, reviews and stuff but we LOVE to tell others what we're thinking about these news and reviews. We just can't help it :-). While you may visit some photo-news site once or twice a day - you may visit it more than 10 times if something interesting's going on in the site's forum. That's how RG site used to work. I was going through their homepage about 5-6 times a day - to get to the forums. RG made big mistake, thinking that forum is useless, because it's not generating directly "ad-clicks". Forums were there for them, channeling users back and forth through main page - where "ad-clicks" occur.
Well... now im visiting RG once in 3-4 days, since they are publishing same news everyone else has published the day before.

Forums are excellent promotion tool. Tool, not a product itself - mind that! You can use it to sell, but can't sell it. Pro-photo-bla-bla forums /they are changing names too fast to remember/ will fail, because they have no understanding of this simple web-marketing principle. RG will suffer severe "frequent visitor loss", because of this decision, i'm pretty sure they are already feeling this.

I'm just wandering about the selling price... was it worth it?!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: RG Forum-New Format
Post by: yaya on July 24, 2006, 04:46:37 am
Quote
I wrote PDN about starting a forum.  Hopefully they will do so.

You mean this http://www.pdngallery.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi (http://www.pdngallery.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi)