Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: narikin on December 01, 2016, 05:04:12 pm
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Anyone else getting fed up with being milked for $99/year for 'features' that really should be fixes made under existing licences - like the LCC issue for IQ3-100 backs?
It seems Phase are quick to decide it's a new generation of software and charge us to get it to fix their bugs/errors, along with relatively minor improvements.
I spent $35000 on their back(!) this year, and feel I should get the latest software for a year at least, included in that price. Sheesh, try telling me that's not a reasonable expectation!
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Why are you complaining ?!? Their DB version for all their backs has been and still is free. So you DON'T have to spent ANYTHING.
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I am in no rush to upgrade.
Version 10 looks more like refinements than new features, add the poor Pentax support and I probably won't upgrade.
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Because I, like everyone here, own other cameras too, and paid them $35000 for one of their backs - shouldn't I be entitled to their latest FULL software for a year, rather than paying for upgrades every 10 months?
It's not like I can leave v9 on my computer for Sony and Canon files, and get v10 in DB only for my IQ3-100, so I'm forced into paying for the upgrade if I want to fix the LCC issue, or... loose support for Sony and Canon, if I want v10 for free in DB mode.
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Because I, like everyone here, own other cameras too, and paid them $35000 for one of their backs - shouldn't I be entitled to their latest FULL software for a year, rather than paying for upgrades every 10 months?
It's not like I can leave v9 on my computer for Sony and Canon files, and get v10 in DB only for my IQ3-100, so I'm forced into paying for the upgrade if I want to fix the LCC issue, or... loose support for Sony and Canon, if I want v10 for free in DB mode.
First off, I don't think anyone is "entitled" to anything that they weren't promised. Second, you don't have to upgrade. Third, your argument doubles back on itself. You spent $35,000 for a piece of a camera and are now complaining about another $99 (there is a voucher, I'm told, for 10% off).
Having said that, we all have our breaking point when it comes to expectations from companies we deal with. For me, an amateur, I'm done with Aperture (sadly), deeply dislike Adobe (who make the Phase One folks look like the Good Samaritan in comparison) and don't see anything else out there that meets my needs. So I'm happy with CO. Probably stick with 9 for a while but speed improvements do beckon, even though they might just be marketing hype.
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ok - so more constructively: is there a way to keep v9Pro on my machine, and have v10DB on there also, for the IQ back work?
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ok - so more constructively: is there a way to keep v9Pro on my machine, and have v10DB on there also, for the IQ back work?
Both appear to be residing on my iMac. I'm wondering just the opposite: How do I get CO9 off my hard drive?
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How do I get CO9 off my hard drive?
deactivate first then uninstall ..
https://appcleaner.en.softonic.com/mac?ex=TOP-481.0
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Thank you. But wondering why both are still there. This does not typically happen with other software. Usually the most recent version takes the place of the previous one.
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I saw the announcement posted online this morning, downloaded the update and saw that my CO9 was not a free update. I'm beginning to feel like a Leaf cash cow, making a $99 payment every twelve moths for incremental improvements after making a lump sum payment of $299 for CO8. I think that I'll wait to upgrade. It's a fairly low fee but I too busy justifying my Adobe CC account.
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ok - so more constructively: is there a way to keep v9Pro on my machine, and have v10DB on there also, for the IQ back work?
Hi,
They install side by side (in their own folders/subdirectories).
Cheers,
Bart
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Thank you. But wondering why both are still there. This does not typically happen with other software. Usually the most recent version takes the place of the previous one.
Hi,
That's not my experience (on Windows) unless I override the default path and instruct the installer to use the same subdirectory. It's better to deinstall the previous product, reboot, and install the new product. Or you could use the instructions in the Capture One knowledge-base about completely removing older versions because un-installing could leave some traces of e.g. newly created files after installation.
Keeping the previous version will allow for a fallback option in case something turns out to be broken in the new version and you cannot wait for a fixed update.
Cheers,
Bart
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Typically on a Mac, at least in terms of appearances (I don't know what actually happens) when you do a point upgrade, 9.0 to 10.0 for example, it is not treated as 2 separate apps. Version 9 is upgraded to version 10. 9 no longer exists as a separate entity. I much prefer this approach.
So now that I have 9 and 10 on my machine I'm not sure what to do. I see no reason to keep 9. It sounds like uninstalling could have some risk? I don't know. Sounds like uninstalling it could also leave residual garbage behind too. I'll put in a support request.
I did not see, during the upgrade process, instructions to delete the previous version before installing the new one. I guess I did not look well enough.
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Why don't you talk to your dealer or p1 directly? I'd imagine they'll take care of you...
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Typically on a Mac, at least in terms of appearances (I don't know what actually happens) when you do a point upgrade, 9.0 to 10.0 for example, it is not treated as 2 separate apps. Version 9 is upgraded to version 10. 9 no longer exists as a separate entity. I much prefer this approach.
So now that I have 9 and 10 on my machine I'm not sure what to do. I see no reason to keep 9. It sounds like uninstalling could have some risk? I don't know. Sounds like uninstalling it could also leave residual garbage behind too. I'll put in a support request.
I did not see, during the upgrade process, instructions to delete the previous version before installing the new one. I guess I did not look well enough.
I could not be easier. Just drag CO 9 to the bin. Done.
CO10 is not a point update over CO 9. From 9.2 to 9.3 is a point update.
CO 10 is an upgrade. A new version number installed in its own folder and with its own preferences.
Removing CO9 after having installed CO10 does not harm CO10.
Hope this helps.
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I've decided to keep 9.3 for a little while, and wait for 10.x or 11, as I won't see any benefit to my A7RII files with this version 10. I know they always push these new versions, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to upgrade right away.
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I could not be easier. Just drag CO 9 to the bin. Done.
Thank you.
CO10 is not a point update over CO 9. From 9.2 to 9.3 is a point update.
CO 10 is an upgrade. A new version number installed in its own folder and with its own preferences.
Okay, I got the terminology wrong. Nevertheless, i never recall having to discard previous versions of Aperture or LR. Maybe my memory is bad.
Removing CO9 after having installed CO10 does not harm CO10.
Hope this helps.
Yes, thank you, it does. And thanks for the discount voucher from your site. Its the main reason I jumped on this upgrade. I usually wait.
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Tried to install v10 in DB mode, while leaving my v9 Pro on my computer (Windows 10)
Nope - major fail - you can install both, but it wipes out all your preferences.
Useless. back to original complaint - yes Phase One might decide to call this an 'Upgrade' but I consider fixing the LCC for their $35,000 back customers, not an 'upgrade' but a bug fix. Definitely not something to ask another $99 for. That is plainly gouging people for an error on their part.
Phase have pissed me off, as a loyal customer of 10 years and 5 backs. I'm going to look seriously at investing in the Fuji MF system when it comes. Charging me $99 to fix their program errors on a VERY expensive back? - no thank you. They should have released the fix for IQ3-100 LCC's in a v9.x update, and then put v10 out there for anyone who buys into that.
I've made my point, so: rant over!
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Tried to install v10 in DB mode, while leaving my v9 Pro on my computer (Windows 10)
Nope - major fail - you can install both, but it wipes out all your preferences.
It most definitely did not wipe out my preferences. Everything on the preferances pages was retained, even the keyboard shortcuts. If with preferences you mean your desktop arrangement, simply load it from your Window > Workspace. If you never saved your workspace in version 9, just open it and save your workspace, then close version 9 and open version 10 and do what I wrote above. Everything should be exactly where you had it. But if you are referring to the settings in preferences, on both my Windows and Mac, all the preferences were retained. What did not transfer though is camera specific defaults for the various tools.
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Okay, I got the terminology wrong. Nevertheless, i never recall having to discard previous versions of Aperture or LR. Maybe my memory is bad.
Yes, your memory is bad. :)
This does indeed happen with major Lightroom upgrades. Just like with LR, as Bart says, they keep the previous version on there as a fallback - for major releases. However, [on Windows], I've never had things get broken when uninstalling the previous version. At worst I've had to delete an old directory that was left undeleted for whatever reason after the uninstall.
What's up for debate though, is whether C1P v10 is perceived as a major upgrade over v9.. Seems awfully incremental, to me. But on the same token, due to it's minor-ness - if one doesn't want/choose to upgrade, then they're not missing much either IMO. (And I'd agree with Narikin, that regardless of the differential cost points made, the LCC fix should be put in the 9.x series also. Maybe they will?)
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What's up for debate though, is whether C1P v10 is perceived as a major upgrade over v9.. Seems awfully incremental, to me. But on the same token, due to it's minor-ness - if one doesn't want/choose to upgrade, then they're not missing much either IMO. (And I'd agree with Narikin, that regardless of the differential cost points made, the LCC fix should be put in the 9.x series also. Maybe they will?)
I think if you baselined 9.0 vs. 10.0 the upgrade would look much bigger than the 9.3 to 10.0 upgrade looks. One thing I appreciate is that Phase is rolling out some substantial improvements in dot releases as they become available (Phase is actually doing what Adobe promised with the move to CC and then didn't deliver as they are basically still giving you major releases about once a year rather than incremental releases every couple of months). Yes that diminishes the impact of a release like 10.0 but I would much rather have the incremental improvements when they are ready rather than having to wait a year until enough of those are bundled together to create a substantial new full version release.
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Personally, I do see this upgrade as something major. The new sharpening is incredible, and I do my own printing (Epson 9900) both professionally for myself and other photographers so the new output sharpening and Proofing are very welcome. Something as simple as being able to move folders within a CO Catalog is something I've been asking for and will save me a lot of time. It appears the speed increase is significant enough to be noticeable and welcome on an older MacPro. I think $99 after a year with 9 is well worth the upgrade to 10. Of course, I use CO professionally and it's a cost of doing business. If you're not, then it may not be worth it, yet.
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I do my own printing (Epson 9900) both professionally for myself and other photographers so the new output sharpening and Proofing are very welcome.
At the moment I do not seem to be able to have the effects of the process recipe output sharpening / proofing show up in the print tool layout
Or do the effects not appear there but are apparent on the actual print ?
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At the moment I do not seem to be able to have the effects of the process recipe output sharpening / proofing show up in the print tool layout
Or do the effects not appear there but are apparent on the actual print ?
Hi Jeff,
With Capture One Pro version 10, they are on the 'Adjustments' tab of the Process Recipe panel (see attached).
Cheers,
Bart
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I agree with above. Even though I upgraded primarily for the hope of speed, which I did not really see, one of the main issues I hear high end users complain about 9.x was lack of serious sharpening features. We have them now. I hope to take advantage of them soon and hope 10 will be my one-stop-shopping solution from import to final print output. I'm optimistic.
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With Capture One Pro version 10, they are on the 'Adjustments' tab of the Process Recipe panel (see attached).
Cheers,
Bart
Hi Bart,
Perhaps I worded the question wrongly :(
If I am using the print tool, page layout etc. I cannot see a way of turning the proofing on / off to see those adjustments made in the output recipe
Is this proofing feature only for output files ( jpg / tiff ) not printing direct, if so then there is possibly a feature request ?
Jeff
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Hi Bart,
Perhaps I worded the question wrongly :(
If I am using the print tool, page layout etc. I cannot see a way of turning the proofing on / off to see those adjustments made in the output recipe
Hi Jeff,
I now see what you were referring to. In the Print module there is no reference to sharpening settings that were made before, and I'm a bit puzzled myself and wonder if (I assume not) and how those settings translate (probably only the Diffraction and Sharpening panel/adjustment layer settings).
Is this proofing feature only for output files ( jpg / tiff ) not printing direct, if so then there is possibly a feature request ?
The Process sharpening settings for creating output files are obvious because we can also toggle the proofing on and off on the toolbar. But indeed, in the Print module there is nothing else than a sharpening slider without visual feedback or an indication that earlier sharpening settings are in effect. Maybe it still needs to be implemented in an upcoming dot release. It was also a bit puzzling why the Print module toolbar icon had to be installed on the toolbar because it was missing in the default setup.
The convoluted workaround is to produce an output file and then select that as the file to print with the output module, probably with it's additional sharpening disabled, but that's not how it should normally be done.
Maybe one of the PhaseOne representatives can shed some light on the Print module sharpening.
Cheers,
Bart
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It was also a bit puzzling why the Print module toolbar icon had to be installed on the toolbar because it was missing in the default setup.
How do you install the Print module toolbar icon? I couldn't figure out how to do it.
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How do you install the Print module toolbar icon? I couldn't figure out how to do it.
Right click up in the toolbar then select Customize Toolbar and then drag whatever icon you want up into the toolbar. Any of the three toolbars across the top can be customized this way.
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Right click up in the toolbar the select Customize Toolbar and then drag whatever icon you want up into the toolbar. Any of the three toolbars across the top can be customized this way.
Thanks. I didn't realize there was more than one toolbar (pretty new to Capture One).
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I'm glad that Phase One continue to invest in developing Capture One and happily will pay for it. Even if, as others have pointed out, fixes aren't really upgrades. Fuji auto-masking? Finally....
It's pricey no doubt about that. The upfront fee and what looks like an annual fee of 99 means the subscription model ends up being almost equivalent. Depending on your needs you have the option of not upgrading or of upgrading every other version, something I do with certain applications.
But something I use every day like C1? I'll keep up.
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My answer to this rant is that people expect to be paid a salary every month and if the companies don't keep working to improve the products and sell them YOU don't get paid. Research cost! Sometimes you get a big breakthrough and sometimes it marginal but it does improve.
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My answer to this rant is that people expect to be paid a salary every month and if the companies don't keep working to improve the products and sell them YOU don't get paid. Research cost! Sometimes you get a big breakthrough and sometimes it marginal but it does improve.
If you bother to actually read the original post, you will see I was specifically complaining that they put the fix for the IQ3-100 LCC issue into the new upgrade, rather than a 9.x release. Therefore, to have a properly working LCC mechanism for the VERY expensive back, you have to pay another $99.
(Yes, you can use v10 in DB mode here, but that will wipe out your v9 PRO installation, so you can't process other files - Sony, Canon - read above - you can't keep both Pro and DB versions easily on your computer)
Is it right of Phase One to charge IQ3 owners $99 to fix their error, if they wish to keep the Pro licence they already bought? No, in my opinion, it simply isn't. They should have put that fix into v9, or offered a free upgrade to 3-100 owners. Their error = their cost.
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If you bother to actually read the original post, you will see I was specifically complaining that they put the fix for the IQ3-100 LCC issue into the new upgrade, rather than a 9.x release. Therefore, to have a properly working LCC mechanism for the VERY expensive back, you have to pay another $99.
(Yes, you can use v10 in DB mode here, but that will wipe out your v9 PRO installation, so you can't process other files - Sony, Canon - read above - you can't keep both Pro and DB versions easily on your computer)
Hi,
I wonder if that (bold emphasis in your quoted text is mine) is the case.
V9 and V10 installations can coexist on the same computer as far as I know. Otherwise check with PhaseOne support how to run your Digital Back with V10 in free DB mode, and keep your V9 for other cameras at the same time, if you don't want the improvements for those.
Maybe (?) you can't run them side-by-side at the same time, but from what I've understood you should be able to run them one-after-the-other.
Cheers,
Bart
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Hi,
I wonder if that (bold emphasis in your quoted text is mine) is the case.
V9 and V10 installations can coexist on the same computer as far as I know. Otherwise check with PhaseOne support how to run your Digital Back with V10 in free DB mode, and keep your V9 for other cameras at the same time, if you don't want the improvements for those.
Maybe (?) you can't run them side-by-side at the same time, but from what I've understood you should be able to run them one-after-the-other.
Cheers,
Bart
Well Bart, all I can say is I tried and failed. Installing v10 in DB mode only (rather than upgrading the Pro for $99) it opens with a clean C1 default workspace, and no record of your saved one.
Close that (you can only have one instance of C1 open at a time) and open your old v9 Pro, and your old workspace has gone now - with Quick Tab choices wiped out, etc. Yes, maybe it's deep there to recover somewhere, but it's a real struggle to do this. I gave up and rebuilt my workspace. It shouldn't be - it was their problem, and they are making people who gave them $35,000+ for an IQ3-100, pay to fix the LCC processing. That is simply wrong. Quite frankly I'm amazed anyone finds that defensible!
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Well Bart, all I can say is I tried and failed. Installing v10 in DB mode only (rather than upgrading the Pro for $99) it opens with a clean C1 default workspace, and no record of your saved one.
Close that (you can only have one instance of C1 open at a time) and open your old v9 Pro, and your old workspace has gone now - with Quick Tab choices wiped out, etc. Yes, maybe it's deep there to recover somewhere, but it's a real struggle to do this. I gave up and rebuilt my workspace. It shouldn't be - it was their problem, and they are making people who gave them $35,000+ for an IQ3-100, pay to fix the LCC processing. That is simply wrong. Quite frankly I'm amazed anyone finds that defensible!
I explained in detail earlier in the thread how to get your V.9 workspace loaded in V.10 - it is simple. As for running both, you just have to have a different catalog. Don't upgrade your V.9 catalog or session to V.10. then start a new one for just your Phase Captures in v. 10. If you have already converted your v. 9 catalog to a v. 10 catalog, go retrieve the v.9 catalog off of a backup.
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Well [...], all I can say is I tried and failed.
As you see in my above post - it didn't work for me. I was forced to pay up for the fix. You may be right for others, but it didn't work for me, in the limited time I had to get C1 Pro working again.
The fact that Phase expects you to run around like this, to fix their errors, is not acceptable. The LCC fix should have been a v9 update, not a v10 paid one. Period.
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As you see in my above post - it didn't work for me. I was forced to pay up for the fix. You may be right for others, but it didn't work for me, in the limited time I had to get C1 Pro working again.
The fact that Phase expects you to run around like this, to fix their errors, is not acceptable. The LCC fix should have been a v9 update, not a v10 paid one. Period.
Oh, come on. 10 might not be a huge upgrade but it certainly came with more than an attempted bug fix. And it seems to have value for plenty of customers.
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The fact that Phase expects you to run around like this, to fix their errors, is not acceptable. The LCC fix should have been a v9 update, not a v10 paid one. Period.
Have you, by any chance, compared the 100mp LCC performance in Capture One 9 to that found in Phocus for the Hassy 100mp back?
Capture One 9's LCC for 100mp was best-in-class. It was not broken. In version 10 it is even better. v10 is available for free to use with Phase files; you're opting to pay for it because you want to use it with non-Phase files. If this was really a big problem/insult for you then you should talk to your Phase One dealer and I'm sure they can figure something out for you.
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Have you, by any chance, compared the 100mp LCC performance in Capture One 9 to that found in Phocus for the Hassy 100mp back?
Capture One 9's LCC for 100mp was best-in-class. It was not broken. In version 10 it is even better. v10 is available for free to use with Phase files; you're opting to pay for it because you want to use it with non-Phase files. If this was really a big problem/insult for you then you should talk to your Phase One dealer and I'm sure they can figure something out for you.
Well Doug, the dealers in their puffery for v10 list the fixing of LCC for wide Tech lenses (Roddy32, for example) as one of the 'features' of this upgrade. I am a tech shooter, who stitches, so, yes, I found it 'broken' - and many dealers concur for wide tech lenses, though they wouldn't say so in print. The fact that Phocus might be worse is neither here nor there.
No, I was not 'opting to pay for it because you want to use it with non-Phase files' I was having to pay for it to get the LCC fix, and be able to carry on processing my other camera RAWs - Canon, Sony, - for which I was very happy in the v9Pro that I had bought. (as above it is hard to install/operate both v9Pro and v10DB on 1 computer). Most of the other new features are of no use to me - output sharpening? No thanks, I don't print from C1.
Personally I think Phase should just go over to the subscription model - it's what they are effectively doing, anyway.
I'm flogging a dead horse here, so this will be my last reply. Thanks all for letting me vent on this. Over and out!
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Personally I think Phase should just go over to the subscription model - it's what they are effectively doing, anyway.
Nope. The majority of us have no _need_ to upgrade if we don't want to. And frankly, if CO was subscription only I would not be a customer. I despise the subscription model.