Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Other Raw Converters => Topic started by: mdijb on November 15, 2016, 09:06:30 PM

Title: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: mdijb on November 15, 2016, 09:06:30 PM
I ahve watched multiple videos about the upcomming On One raw converter.  I t appears to me that it may offer more speed but everything it offers appears to be in LR already.  WHy would they go to all the cost and time to deliver a product that already exists with no significant improvements.

I don't get it.  Am i missing something?

MDIJB
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: jimh on November 15, 2016, 10:16:47 PM
They just sent out an email linking to a couple new demo videos. I watched them (they weren't great) and I agree, nothing there I can't already do with LR. 

But from what I know so far, there should be a few significant differences and features that would be important to me - besides the obvious one of no subscription: 

  NO IMPORT OR CATALOG
  local (brush) curve and color adjustments 
  faster (much faster) rendering when switching photos


If I could get just those things I think I'd be on board.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: ihv on November 16, 2016, 06:11:55 AM
I ahve watched multiple videos about the upcomming On One raw converter.  I t appears to me that it may offer more speed but everything it offers appears to be in LR already.  WHy would they go to all the cost and time to deliver a product that already exists with no significant improvements.

I don't get it.  Am i missing something?

MDIJB

Yes. It has layers, i.e. image compositing is possible (+overlays).
By looking at some sample videos it also looks better suited for image retouching.
I like the idea of splitting the development into basic + FX.

On the other hand, LR has books, web galleries, maps, slideshows.

For me however, until I can't get the image out top notch for my liking in develop I don't care much about the presentation level tools.
Moreover, Lr's tools are usable in that regard but not that useful.

Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on November 16, 2016, 07:31:49 AM
I ahve watched multiple videos about the upcomming On One raw converter.  I t appears to me that it may offer more speed but everything it offers appears to be in LR already.  WHy would they go to all the cost and time to deliver a product that already exists with no significant improvements.

I don't get it.  Am i missing something?

Competition? No Subscription, thus lower cost with more innovation? Integration with their Photo suit of tools, and no need for Photoshop? Layers? Speed?

Could be many reasons why people would prefer one over the other. Healthy competion benefits all.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: TheDocAUS on November 17, 2016, 05:48:44 PM
Here is a few compelling reasons:
   No need to import images to work on them, unlike LR. This aspect of LR really annoys me.
   Extremely fast browse mode.
   In one place, you can do raw conversion and stylise your image all non-destructive.
   ON1 can be used as a standalone or as a LR plug in. I decide how to work.
   Layers, advanced masking, etc.
   Superior sharpening, resizing and output with Perfect Resize (the old genuine fractals).
   Huge functionality in the Effects module.
   No annual subscription model.
   Speed, much faster workflow in ON1.

Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: jimh on November 19, 2016, 09:00:25 PM
Here is a few compelling reasons:
   No need to import images to work on them, unlike LR. This aspect of LR really annoys me.
   Extremely fast browse mode.
   In one place, you can do raw conversion and stylise your image all non-destructive.
   ON1 can be used as a standalone or as a LR plug in. I decide how to work.
   Layers, advanced masking, etc.
   Superior sharpening, resizing and output with Perfect Resize (the old genuine fractals).
   Huge functionality in the Effects module.
   No annual subscription model.
   Speed, much faster workflow in ON1.

If it has all of that, I'm 'in'.  But apparently we have to wait quite a while to find out.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on November 20, 2016, 11:16:37 AM
If it has all of that, I'm 'in'.  But apparently we have to wait quite a while to find out.

Not too long a wait (announcement here (https://on1help.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/235180448)). Apparently in only a few days (November 23rd) a pre-release version (for those who already purchased the bundle, offer expires today) is downloadable, and to December 19th for the first official release. Of course numerous features may (and will) be changed before final release, but it is coming. Hopefully the conversion quality is good enough (or even better), but for knowing that for a fact we'll have to wait a bit longer.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: jimh on November 20, 2016, 11:25:14 AM
Does anyone know if it will do tethered shooting? 
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on November 20, 2016, 11:49:43 AM
Does anyone know if it will do tethered shooting?

Not yet implemented.

https://www.on1.com/blog/on1-photo-raw-qa-with-dan-harlacher/
Quote
Will tethering options in ON1 Photo RAW?

Tethered shooting is under consideration for the release, but will more likely be an update later.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: StuartOnline on November 20, 2016, 06:50:49 PM
I had preordered On1 Photo Raw a while back and received an email yesterday that I would be getting a copy this coming Wednesday (Nov. 23rd).  Looking forward to seeing for myself how fast this software runs.

On another note there is a live event taking place tomorrow (Nov. 21st) where you maybe able to get a bunch of questions anserwed and see it in action live.
https://www.on1.com/products/photo-raw/live/?utm_campaign=eNews&utm_source=enews&utm_medium=email

Cheers!

Stu
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: TheDocAUS on November 21, 2016, 12:40:26 AM
It gets released to those who pre-purchased on 23 Nov. It is a pre release version, final version comes out on 19 Dec.

ON1 has also set release schedule for  product over 2017.

More videos being released Monday 21 Nov, US time.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: jwstl on November 21, 2016, 11:23:49 AM
I ahve watched multiple videos about the upcomming On One raw converter.  I t appears to me that it may offer more speed but everything it offers appears to be in LR already.  WHy would they go to all the cost and time to deliver a product that already exists with no significant improvements.

I don't get it.  Am i missing something?

MDIJB

Why do we have more than 1 car manufacturer when all of them get you from point A to point B? One may get you there faster or more comfortably but you still end up at the same spot.

Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: StuartOnline on November 21, 2016, 12:10:01 PM
There is a recorning of ON1 Photo Raw avialable now: https://www.on1.com/products/photo-raw/livestream/

Cheers!
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: Alan Smallbone on November 23, 2016, 10:19:42 AM
The other thing is it is a different raw converter engine, different possibilities. The fact that is can do complex masking and layering non-destructively is a big bonus. I like the non-subscription model, they have been pretty upfront of what is currently working, what doesn't and when to expect new features into next year. Monthly releases. Competition is good and it is nice to have options. There is a lot to like about it.

Alan
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: jrp on November 23, 2016, 03:17:12 PM
At least on demo, this looks like a very attractive alternative to Lightroom, although I would wait a year for it to mature and the non-obvious bugs to / limitations to be squashed / apparent.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: TheDocAUS on November 23, 2016, 05:23:36 PM
Now available for download for select users.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: hokuahi on November 23, 2016, 06:07:28 PM
Because it is wicked fast?
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: Cem on November 23, 2016, 06:43:42 PM
Just downloaded and played an hour or so with the preview version. Initial impression I have got is a slight disappointment. A couple of things cause this:

1) The quality of the raw conversion is not on par with Capture One, LR and DxO. The converted image seems to have a lower resolution.

2) On1 has been making big claims about the speed. Unfortunately, the program is quite sluggish. Even slower than LR on my PC. When I slide/shift the controls, things are delayed and choppy. Refreshing the image takes time. It seems as if the graphic processor isn't being used (I have an NVidia GTX 1060 card).

PS: The program has crashed twice during my brief testing and had to be restarted.

Now I know that this is a preview version and they need time to iron out the initial bugs. That is why I'm only slightly disappointed.  ;)
But I am seriously worried about the IQ. If it doesn't improve, I won't be using the ON1 raw converter after all.

What are your impressions so far?
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: TheDocAUS on November 23, 2016, 08:06:27 PM
Far to early to make meaningful comments. But it handles big files like the Pentax 645Z and Sony A7R faster than LR and other raw processes. Remember this is a pre release version.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on November 24, 2016, 07:54:04 AM
Just downloaded and played an hour or so with the preview version. Initial impression I have got is a slight disappointment. A couple of things cause this:

1) The quality of the raw conversion is not on par with Capture One, LR and DxO. The converted image seems to have a lower resolution.

Hi Cem,

Yes, I concur with that observation (comparing to Capture One Pro, RawTherapee, and Lightroom). I also ran a quick test on a very critical test chart frame I had shot some time ago, as the first image I processed with On1 Raw. I had tested other Raw converters with the same image before, so I knew what to expect, what was possible. Given that it is the same Raw data frame, the only differences were due to the converter algorithms.

The main issue is that the demosaicing quality is significantly poorer (at this stage of development, so that could hopefully improve). There is an off chance that this is caused by my Camera model not being supported yet by the faster conversion engine, but I'd expect that besides speed differences, the actual Bayer CFA demosaicing algorithm is the same.

With a much lower quality (demosaicing) input, we can only try and catch up at a later stage of development, but with at least one arm tied to our back. The garbage in, garbage out (GIGO) principle still applies. On the plus side, judging from the strange artifacts, I do see that they are using a self-developed method of conversion, so there is probably knowledge available to change it as well.

Quote
2) On1 has been making big claims about the speed. Unfortunately, the program is quite sluggish. Even slower than LR on my PC. When I slide/shift the controls, things are delayed and choppy. Refreshing the image takes time. It seems as if the graphic processor isn't being used (I have an NVidia GTX 1060 card).

PS: The program has crashed twice during my brief testing and had to be restarted.

It may be a bit early to draw conclusions about that, but it doesn't sound encouraging. I must say that my experience with the new contender is limited so far (it only became available for download close to mid-night local time, and installation took its sweet time), but I didn't notice a hugely different/slower response once the system settled a bit (OS and application caching and whatever refreshes were going on in the background).

Quote
Now I know that this is a preview version and they need time to iron out the initial bugs. That is why I'm only slightly disappointed.  ;)

Same with me.

Quote
But I am seriously worried about the IQ. If it doesn't improve, I won't be using the ON1 raw converter after all.

While it may still be useful after another program did the Raw conversion to TIFF, or for OOC JPEGs, I also do not like the idea of only using it for postprocessing. I agree that Demosaicing quality needs to be significantly improved for it to become a viable alternative.

I'll reserve my final judgment of the program for when it matures during the coming months, but they'll need to fix the demosaicing, otherwise it won't become what it's supposed to be.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: jimh on November 24, 2016, 03:40:27 PM
How can I clearly see the demosaicing issue?  If I bring up the same photo in LR and ON1PR, do no sharpening (I assume basic demosaicing still happens) and zoom to 100% - I'll see a significant difference that subsequent sharpening can't totally eliminate? 
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: David Sutton on November 24, 2016, 05:19:56 PM
I think the screen layout is good, the exif information is displayed well and the placement of the different modules for browse and develop seem logical.
Browsing is very fast indeed once the program has created a cache in its "fastbrowse" folder. Before that happens you can wait a long time for an image to load.

I crashed the program four times in fifteen minutes just in the browse mode.
Unless you are interested in helping with the development, I'd wait until version two comes out maybe next year. By then they'll have dual monitor support and the problems probably sorted. This is very much a buggy beta version, and you have to wonder at the wisdom of letting it out as a "pre-release".
Shows promise. I was hoping to have something else to edit my X-T2 raw files on, but I don't think this is it yet.

Edit: I know this is a silly, but one thing really annoys me.
I understand rating and colour-coding a file, but "like or dislike"?? What happened to "set as delete" or whatever? It reminds me of Microsoft's Mr. Paperclip.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: tonyrom on December 01, 2016, 01:44:41 AM
Not sure how good the Raw conversion is.  I took the same landscape photo, raw.  Loaded the software in both LR and ON1.  Not only is there detail missing, there is color and texture missing as well.  Check out the attachments.
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: BartvanderWolf on December 01, 2016, 09:02:22 AM
Not sure how good the Raw conversion is.  I took the same landscape photo, raw.  Loaded the software in both LR and ON1.  Not only is there detail missing, there is color and texture missing as well.  Check out the attachments.

Hi Tony,

That is what I have also found (see other thread (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=114728.0) about On1 Photo Raw). The Raw conversion quality leaves something to be desired, and I'm not sure if that will be fixed before the official version is released. It's a pity if they do not improve that aspect, because otherwise it looks like a reasonably fast Raw converter with lots of possibilities.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: mburke on December 02, 2016, 07:20:39 AM
There are a few things that need fixing like crop tool, herky jerky brushing, and memory leak issues, but overall it is a really interesting program. I opened 10-12 files of varying quality in both LRCC and On1 and could not tell the difference in quality. No matter what program you use do I use the opening raw as my final effort. I always tweak the various settings depending on what's needed. I think that ON1 has tremendous potential. It has a lot of speed and many options for styling your photos. In 6 months or so when they have cleaned up some of their early issues they will have a nice program
Title: Re: ON ONE Raw converter--WHY?
Post by: nemophoto on December 27, 2016, 04:52:12 PM
I am, frankly, underwhelmed by On1 RAW. I used the "pre-lease", which was seriously hobbled, and found it slower and more cumbersome that LR or ACR and even than DxO or Capture One. I then downloaded, when it became available, the release version of On1 RAW 2017. It has crashed every single time I've tried to launch it with no fixes available.

Wasted money. On1 Photo 10 was decent, especially when doing textured overlays, etc. But, frankly, any of my other plugins do the same job in different ways (and I own a lot of them: Nik, Alien Skin Exposure, Topaz). This will probably be the last time I pay for an On1 upgrade. I used to use Genuine Fractals a lot, but with my 5Ds, find it less necessary. That said, I find that On1 Resize (nee Genuine Fractals) can be slow and kludgy. the only thing I still use it for is to extend the edges to do a canvas gallery wrap.