Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Huffie on September 29, 2016, 04:07:38 pm
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Being a one time photographer i have decided to follow my dream and get back to art-making.
I plan to buy a Pentax K-1 with the FA/31mm for large scale landscapes.
It seems Epson has been the fine art printing leader for years, is this still true?
Their current large format printer is the SureColor P-800.
Is this a good choice?
I need excellent detail rendering in color and B&W, stable colors so they are archival (and sell-able as art prints) as well as comparability with my iMac running OSX 10.7.
Is the extra RIP software needed for my needs?
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Large scale can exceed the 17" carriage width of a P800, but if you don't intend a larger width it's fine - and buy it with the optional roll holder for doing panos longer than the maximum sheet length. If you wish to go for a 24 inch carriage width and have pano capability, your options open to an Epson P7000 or a Canon Pro-2000, both of which handle sheets and rolls. Both are excellent printers. Both will deliver fine colour and superb image detail. Your choice should depend on where you are in terms of access to service and the particular features of the printers that are most important to you.
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Thanks Mark!
Service may well be a big problem.
I live near Yosemite, which really is in the middle of nowhere (or everywhere depending on how you are thinking about it!?)
Is there a problem with Epson service?
If i buy it online or in San Francisco what will my approach to service look like?
Is Canon a better choice service-wise?
Since my plan is basically straight landscapes, what specific features should i be looking for in a printer?
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You would be dealing with Epson America or Canon USA (CUSA). I have no idea about the pros and cons of how either would service that area of the US, as I live in Canada. From Canada I haven't had issues with either. The choices for features don't depend on whether you are printing landscapes or other kinds of photos; it's basically about how the printers work. We have not yet reviewed either an Epson P-7000 or a Canon Pro-2000 on this website, but Keith Cooper over at Northlight Images has reviewed both and woould be worth your while reading. There are also hundreds of Forum posts on this website discussing the pros and cons of the Epson versus the Canon approaches to printer technology, also worth reading.
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P-800 and smaller you take it to them for service.
24" and larger they come to you.
I would give more thought to what you think you can sell.
If canvas then I would not get anything smaller then a 24" unit.
I started with The Epson 7900 and 6 weeks later I ordered a 44" 9900.
A 24" printer is only going to get you around 20x30 gallery wrap (Or wider of course.)
Big jump from a P-800 to the 8000.
Good to get your feet wet first.
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What about paying extra for the designer edition? - (it includes the "EFI Fiery eXpress RIP software)
Is that going to be useful for making art prints?
I have read someone saying that creating ICC profiles is not needed for them because the P800 settings are good out of the box.
Does that sound reasonable?
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Numerous photographers find they don't need a RIP to make excellent fine-art prints, but quite a few photographers appreciate some of their convenience features. Print quality mainly depends on how well you prepare the photos for printing, and the quality of your colour management including the paper profiles. Profiles can be fine whether from the paper and printer manufacturers or custom to your printer. A lot of material about this on this website.
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Let me toss in an additional something to think about re sizing the printer. Whatever models you narrow down to, take a good look at the replacement cost of a full set of ink carts. It can be fairly staggering for the really large printers. I do a lot of file preparation and printing for myself and other photographers and I only keep "in house" a 17" carriage printer. This easily handles 95% of my needs. For really large prints/canvases it is much more cost effective to do file prep and soft proofing in my digital darkroom, but have the print made by someone else. I would love to own a 24" or even larger printer, but it just doesn't pencil out based on the actual need for that size print in terms of total volume.
Anyway, price the ink! In the long run and with any volume of printing at all, the ink will be at least as large a consideration in the overall cost of operation as the printer itself.
And let me add something that has been inferred but not stated fully... all of the printers mentioned so far, and even adding in the 13" carriage printers using the same inksets, are capable of producing gallery level works of art with beautiful detail and color and excellent longevity (assuming the paper used is up to it) when handled properly.
You're in the right place for good advice... Mark, and others here like Jeff Schewe, are truly experts and are very gracious in sharing their knowledge. I've been "taught" by everyone here and it has been a huge help in achieving really fine results.
Best wishes in your analysis.
Rand
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Hi Rand - you're raising an important point about the inks. The per ml ink cost for an 80 ml cartridge whether Epson or Canon runs quite high compared with the 160 ml and up cartridges that come with the 24 inch models. The inks do last a long time - well beyond their expiry dates, so even printing relatively low volume, if one can make use of the 24 inch carriage and has the space to house such printers, ink would be one consideration favouring this size printer. But with limited space and no need for a 24" printer, you are correct that a P800 will make exhibition quality prints, as will the Canon Pro-1000.
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HP Z3200 and don't look back.
Longest-lasting inkset on the market, and the most reliable art-quality printer I've used, especially if you're not printing all day, every day (i.e. most photographers). Self-profiling, and you can leave it idle while you're away for a 3-month shooting trip, and it will print as normal when you get back, without clogs. It also uses very little ink, so is cheap to run.
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+1
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Just to put things into perspective. For a P800 printing on a 13x19 sheet, the ink cost is ~$2.09 according to RedRiver. Now, adjust the price of inks for the P6000-P9000, the same print would cost ~$1.70. The actual cost of ink is not that interesting when asking which printer to buy. It's the relative cost that matters. The inks cost 20% less using 150 ml cart. and 42% less using the 350 ml cart. The reason I mention the cost at all is the ink cost is a much smaller cost component than the Paper. I assume you want good quality paper and as an example, the 13x19 sheet of Canson Baryta cost ~$4.00.
What I do is mix the cartridge sizes, LLK goes a lot quicker than Orange for the printing I do. So, I use a combination of 150ml and 350ml.
I can vouch for Epson service, they are serious when it comes to taking care of you and your printer.
HTH,
-tony
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Thanks Mark!
Service may well be a big problem.
I live near Yosemite, which really is in the middle of nowhere (or everywhere depending on how you are thinking about it!?)
Is there a problem with Epson service?
If i buy it online or in San Francisco what will my approach to service look like?
Is Canon a better choice service-wise?
Since my plan is basically straight landscapes, what specific features should i be looking for in a printer?
If you are near Yosemite you may also be near Oakhurst which means you are in close proximity to two excellent, and related, printing houses.
http://www.westcoastimaging.com/#intro
http://www.aspencreekphoto.com/
Those guys are excellent and you might want to do a careful cost evaluation on having custom prints done versus doing your own printing. Personally, I love the immediacy and satisfaction of doing my own large format prints but I'm not sure it makes financial sense.
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I don't think that you have really answered the question on what you mean by "large".
Although the P800 is a large format printer it is 17" wide and that's it. If you need more then it's out.
Personally I have the 17" 3880 and a 17" print a metre or more wide is a big print.
If you are doing canvas though then you only get about 14" which is not much.
Also how many are you going to print? Printing is expensive if you don't do enough to get value from it. If you are not doing at least a couple a week then a lab is probably cheaper.
Rather than getting a RIP in the Designer edition consider just buying Mirage Print or some similar pseudo RIP. Does everything and makes life easy.
Why are you running OSX 10.7? It was awful and ever OS since had been better. If you can upgrade do so to Yosemite or El Capitan.
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your options open to an Epson P7000 or a Canon Pro-2000, both of which handle sheets and rolls. Both are excellent printers. Both will deliver fine colour and superb image detail.
Seems an Epson p6000 would also do nicely?
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Seems an Epson p6000 would also do nicely?
Yes I agree, but two less inks. Most likely doesn't matter for a great many prints, but I was thinking landscapes with rich colouers (e.g sunrises, sunsets, etc.) where that extra bit of colour gamut could be useful.
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I agree with Mark. I had a 6000 and it got returned and I purchased a 7000. Also, if you plan to use ImagePrint, they don't support the 6000/8000 printers.
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I thought you couldn't print landscapes on Epson printers. Something about the software....
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I thought you couldn't print landscapes on Epson printers. Something about the software....
Huh?????????????
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Oh yea, that's probably just the European models.
Huh?????????????
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Is this meant to be a joke?
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Hi Huffie,
I'm up the road from you in Yosemite...
Double-check with whatever printer you get to make sure it will work with your old 10.7...
For service when it becomes time, Pacific Office Products in Sacramento is the place to take your packable printer or have him come out for larger.
In the 15-plus years I've used Epson, My 2000P went in two times to have the waste pads cleaned and then reset before it died and was replaced with a 3880 five years ago. It made one trip in for the black switch-over defect...My 9900 (2nd hand) just got serviced by POP this year, probably it's second-ever service.
Now I started with the desk-top printers and after a couple of years I bumped up a size to do larger prints and canvas. The last size bump up was to a 9800 then four years later to the 9900 with heavy-duty cutter for canvas. I simply outgrew the smaller printers for many products and a lot of my prints were from lower-res cameras... If you are happier with sheet feed, go for it. If you want to run rolls, canvas, more economically-priced inks, then move up to the 24" and larger printers, depending on how many friends you have to help you unpack and set it up.
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... The inks do last a long time - well beyond their expiry dates, so even printing relatively low volume, if one can make use of the 24 inch carriage ...
Hi Mark,
Interesting what you wrote, see above quote.
Any experience how much above the expiry date ?
regards Rainer
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For the Epson 4900 inkset, at least several years.
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For the Epson 4900 inkset, at least several years.
Hi Mark,
Interesting and so one could assume that expiry date can be more or less ignored and is a selling argument for the ink producers ?
It would be nice to hear more experiences from the people who print here, but of course that is a risk when using expensive papers, just to know how much longer do the inks last :) I guess one has to balance out waste ink or waste paper :-\
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Hi Mark,
Interesting and so one could assume that expiry date can be more or less ignored and is a selling argument for the ink producers ?
I don't deal in hypothetical conspiracies. Perhaps there is some risk using expired inks that the companies are protecting themselves from; I just don't happen to know what it is and haven't had a problem with this - yet.
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I don't deal in hypothetical conspiracies. Perhaps there is some risk using expired inks that the companies are protecting themselves from; I just don't happen to know what it is and haven't had a problem with this - yet.
It was just a guess from my side ;D and not thought to sound like a conspiracy theory 8)
When I still had my EPSON 7500 I did not care about expiry dates and it was interesting reading you mentioning it. :)
regards Rainer
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OK Rainer, not to put too fine a point on it - dealing in ink is what we all love to hate, so if I have brought you some good news that corresponds with your own previous experience that is all to the better :-)
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Over the nine years I owned and used my 3800, I know there have been times when I was using cartridges at least three or four years old, but I never observed any print problems from old ink.
The 3800 was so reliable for a long time that I found myself wasting ink and paper typically two or three times a year at most because I never did routine nozzle checks until a print was ruined. This was rare enough so that I always vowed to do daily checks, which I would then do for a couple of weeks, and then forget for another few months.
With my new P800 I fully intend to do a nozzle check at least once a week, or if I haven't printed for a month or two.
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Over the nine years I owned and used my 3800, I know there have been times when I was using cartridges at least three or four years old, but I never observed any print problems from old ink.
The 3800 was so reliable for a long time that I found myself wasting ink and paper typically two or three times a year at most because I never did routine nozzle checks until a print was ruined. This was rare enough so that I always vowed to do daily checks, which I would then do for a couple of weeks, and then forget for another few months.
With my new P800 I fully intend to do a nozzle check at least once a week, or if I haven't printed for a month or two.
Eric, every one's experience will differ depending on environmental and usage conditions, but I'm finding my P800 needs to be used at least every five days or so, otherwise at least one channel (strangely it is usually LLK) will show some blank nozzles in the check pattern. One cleaning cycle is normally enough to bring it back perfectly. In light of this I make sure to print at least a small something within a five day interval, and I do perform a nozzle check before each print session.
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I print large scale landscapes and my printer of choice is the HP Z3100 ( 24" and 44" ). I travel a lot and leave the printers alone for up to a month without any clogging issues. I leave the printers on all the time, they go through their scheduled cleaning cycles and then go back to sleep. I'm getting very good results on both canvas and paper...especially in B&W. If you don't plan on printing on a regular basis ( at least once a week if not more often ), I totally recommend the HP printers as they can sit for over a month and not need any cleaning.
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Except it's no longer available. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/476214-REG/HP_Hewlett_Packard_Q5669A_Designjet_Z3100_24_in_Photo.html
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Except it's no longer available. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/476214-REG/HP_Hewlett_Packard_Q5669A_Designjet_Z3100_24_in_Photo.html
But the 3200 is which has the same inks and nozzle technology.
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Eric, every one's experience will differ depending on environmental and usage conditions, but I'm finding my P800 needs to be used at least every five days or so, otherwise at least one channel (strangely it is usually LLK) will show some blank nozzles in the check pattern. One cleaning cycle is normally enough to bring it back perfectly. In light of this I make sure to print at least a small something within a five day interval, and I do perform a nozzle check before each print session.
Thanks for that tip, Mark.
I will try to get into the habit of doing something at least every five days, as I'm hoping to keep this as long as my 3800.
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Thanks for that tip, Mark.
I will try to get into the habit of doing something at least every five days, as I'm hoping to keep this as long as my 3800.
Hi Eric,
If you're on Windows (or on Mac OS with Parallels), you can automate the process quite easily with Qimage Ultimate. It has an option for producing a Scheduled Unclog Pattern print (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR85nIPGW3E), at an interval you can set up yourself.
Cheers,
Bart
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Hi Eric,
If you're on Windows (or on Mac OS with Parallels), you can automate the process quite easily with Qimage Ultimate. It has an option for producing a Scheduled Unclog Pattern print (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR85nIPGW3E), at an interval you can set up yourself.
Cheers,
Bart
Hi Bart,
That sounds like a great idea as I get more and more forgetful. I even have Q Ultimate but haven't ever really explored it, since my printing habits are so tied to LightRoom.
Yes, I'm on Win 10.
I will give it a try.
Thanks!
Eric
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I would like to thank everyone who responded to my question. You answer my questions and more!
Something tells me i am going to be spending to much time here..cheers!