Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: svds on September 01, 2016, 03:39:05 am
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Current owner of a cursed Z3200.. and tempted to jump ship to Canon or Epson just in spite.
But have access to nicely priced Z5200 44" postscript and Z5400 priced the same.. I guess
It's a no-brainer to go with the Z5400.. but just wanted some input from member with these
newer printers as far as output performance and reliability.. something my Z3200 lacked.
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Price isn't everything. As you should be aware by now, when buying a piece of complex machinery you need to be mindful of after sales support and serviceability and performance reliability. These days, many printers are about as good as each other in terms of output quality, so the main things one focuses on are user-friendliness, features and after-sales support and service. I think it's a good idea to look carefully at all three major brands in respect of these factors before jumping into a large spending decision that will be with you for some years to come.
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What exactly do you want in a printer? That will determine which printer is most suitable.
The Z5200 and Z5400 are production machines designed to churn out large volumes of printed material, but have only 8 inks and lack the gamut of the Z3200 (which is already slightly less than the Canon and Epson photo printers, although it makes up for this in other respects). I wouldn't consider them suitable for critical photo work. But, if your aim is mass production of photos and other printed materials for a less-discerning audience (or those who don't need a wide gamut) they may well fit your bill.
The Z3200 is an extremely reliable machine. It will just keep printing and printing, even if you go months between prints (e.g. when away for a shooting trip), unlike Epsons, which will clog within days, and clog so readily that you need to run a test print to check for dropped nozzles before starting any significant print job. And, when clogs finally start to show, replacing the head is cheap. It literally took a falling porcelain toilet to kill mine.
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It literally took a falling porcelain toilet to kill mine.
No video of that accident? Might attract as many viewers as that Epson 9900 sledgehammer one.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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No video of that accident? Might attract as many viewers as that Epson 9900 sledgehammer one.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Then maybe at least we we'd see the difference between a printer under the toilet versus down the toilet! :-)
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FWIW I was talking to tech support the other day and was told the Z3200 replacement is due this winter.
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FWIW I was talking to tech support the other day and was told the Z3200 replacement is due this winter.
Let's hope it still has 12 inks (or more) and they haven't done anything to reduce the longevity of the Vivera inkset...
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FWIW I was talking to tech support the other day and was told the Z3200 replacement is due this winter.
Anyone else heard anything similar?
This could, quite literally, be the best news from HP in a decade.
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Anyone else heard anything similar?
This could, quite literally, be the best news from HP in a decade.
Mark Lindquist hinted at that possibility some months ago.
There have been introductions of 6 ink Z models already so .......
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-news/press-release.html?id=2251371#.V83CQs7I6Uk
Photokina 2016 is a good place to announce printers that will be available early next year. Like they did in 2006 and 2008, the last not really a decade ago.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Mark Lindquist hinted at that possibility some months ago.
There have been introductions of 6 ink Z models already so .......
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-news/press-release.html?id=2251371#.V83CQs7I6Uk
Photokina 2016 is a good place to announce printers that will be available early next year. Like they did in 2006 and 2008, the last not really a decade ago.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
We'll see if they come through. They are calling the new inks "HP Vivid Photo Inks " and they test better than Vivera.
I hope they do the no-brainer thing and stick with a next-gen 3200ps called (can't say).
We'll all just have to wait.
They will be doing the Vivera inks for at least another 5 years, not sure how long beyond that. Everything depends....
-Mark
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One thing's for sure - if they test better than Vivera longevity-wise, a side-by-side comparison test between them will be a looong, drawn-out affair.
Added longevity can only be a good thing. And a boost to gamut and Dmax (especially on matte paper) would be welcome - I was very impressed with the output of the Canon Pro-2000 on some saturated, high-contrast shots.
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We'll see if they come through. They are calling the new inks "HP Vivid Photo Inks " and they test better than Vivera.
I hope they do the no-brainer thing and stick with a next-gen 3200ps called (can't say).
Hello Mark,
"HP Vivid Photo Inks" is the inkset used on their Z6200 8 inks production unit. I guess they are adding some colors to make a Z3200 replacement.
I was unable to find much info on those inks other than the usual "pigmented inks" and "over 200 years indoor permanence away from direct sunlight on selected media" but gamut plots and permanence ratings without the (expected) new colors wouldn't mean much anyway.
Honestly I don't care for more permanence than Vivera's. That is more than enough for today standards, but if they manage to keep the permanence at the same level, the inexpensive and user replaceable printheads, increase the printing speed, the gamut and Dmax to the level of the current Canons and Epsons while keeping the on-board spectro and their killer neutral B&W... That would be the printer of my dreams.
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Hi Geraldo,
I absolutely agree with you wholeheartedly! Why mess with success!
That was my point during my discussions. We'll see what happens.
:-)
Mark
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IMO the appeal of the Z3200 to photographers comes down to two major things:
1. The longevity of the Vivera inks.
2. The ease of maintenance (i.e. almost none required), with automatic nozzle mapping and cheap, replaceable heads, resulting in a printer that can lie dormant for months before printing with 100% reliability.
The inbuilt spectro is very nice, but not essential.
Whatever the other changes are, if these factors stay the same or are improved on, the printer will be great.
Vivera inks have a larger pigment particle size than Epson Ultrachrome K3 or HDR inks (not sure about the latest HDX inks). This probably accounts for a significant part of their better longevity. I hope that, in whatever ink formulation HP decide to use, they haven't reduced the particle size in an effort to chase gamut and, instead, improved gamut and further improved longevity by increasing the pigment load (whether through new resin/surfactant/carrier fluid formulation or through new head design).
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We'll see if they come through. They are calling the new inks "HP Vivid Photo Inks " and they test better than Vivera.
I hope they do the no-brainer thing and stick with a next-gen 3200ps called (can't say).
We'll all just have to wait.
They will be doing the Vivera inks for at least another 5 years, not sure how long beyond that. Everything depends....
-Mark
Could not visit the Photokina this time but I did not see HP news on a Z3300 or alike either.
However the Z3200 is still mentioned in relation with more recent HP wide formats and the Photokina 2016:
http://www.worldofprint.de/2016/08/16/hp-zeigt-auf-der-photokina-2016-neue-wachstumschancen-im-fotodruck/
Which means continuing support for that printer IMHO. And the possibility that a successor could appear later on.
I am not unhappy with that knowledge.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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No kidding,
Wilhelm's figures for the Canson papers I use on the Z are already >450 years, for what that's worth. That's twice the figures for my Canon Lucia inks. ( and the new Epson inks most likely).http://www.wilhelm-research.com/Canson/canson_infinity.html
The Inkpress rag media figures for the Z are >500 years. That is the same figure I once saw for the carbon transfer process the most permanent photo process of all time. http://www.wilhelm-research.com/inkpress/inkpress.html
Those figures are behind glass with uv filtration. My dmax on the Z on Canson matte media is about 1.8, that's way beyond anything else I've ever used. But I haven't used the new Epson inks, which are probably close to that, maybe. I'll definitely wait until HP releases their new one before I buy and expensive P10K.
If I had a Z with one more extra light gray I wouldn't need anything else. With HP you can renew the warranty anytime you want for as long as you want. And they don't rip you off when they do work on them.
john
One thing's for sure - if they test better than Vivera longevity-wise, a side-by-side comparison test between them will be a looong, drawn-out affair.
Added longevity can only be a good thing. And a boost to gamut and Dmax (especially on matte paper) would be welcome - I was very impressed with the output of the Canon Pro-2000 on some saturated, high-contrast shots.
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I'm not surprised they haven't announced anything new yet. At the time, just a few short months ago, I was told they have been so busy with their latex printers they just haven't had time to work on the Z series - that it has been the farthest thing from their minds. I made my suggestions (many of them) and there were copious notes taken. I pushed my points, many of which have been expressed here, but there is no telling what corporate will do. I think they will continue to be loyal to Z Series customers - it is just the impression I got. I did get other impressions, but I just can't say at this point. I keep saying we'll just have to wait, and that only time will tell. It's true, we'll wait and see.
I am in agreement with Ernst and John and SB - even if they don't do anything and continue to manufacture the printers and the inks, I'm good to go and a happy camper.
Mark
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It would be nice if they fixed their HP utility which is rather broken in places.
USB support hasn't worked since Win7.
Currently it doesn't work well enough even on the LAN on Win10 to show estimated ink levels.
jim
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It would be nice if they fixed their HP utility which is rather broken in places.
USB support hasn't worked since Win7.
Currently it doesn't work well enough even on the LAN on Win10 to show estimated ink levels.
jim
130ML cart hardware is roughly 50 grams, anything above that is ink, 1 gram = 1 ML. 300ML cart hardware is 120 grams, anything above that is ink. This never gave me trouble, I use only HP Vivera pigment ink but tend to tweak cartridges where it counts.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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We only use genuine HP ink here as well. The hardware has been fine. Prints are beautiful but software is spotty.
jim
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The software support for the Zs is the worst in the business. The other thing they failed at was promoting the technology after the first year. They trotted out some great engineers the first year, and then they were gone. I rarely meet an artist or photographer who is not a printing specialist who has ever heard of a Z3200. They are not running any ads in any magazines to attract artists and photographers, not doing anything useful on the web, and equally stupid is they never show up to the tech shows or the photo educational conferences. Duhhh... It's like they went out of their way to keep this amazing ink a secret or something. It boggles the mind.
And the website! Don't get me started on their website. It's like there are 100 people managing that site and they all hate each other. You need a to devote a couple of hours to finding something and then when and if you find it, half the time there is some glitch in being able to download the file, or it's been removed or something. This is one of the largest tech companies in the world, and one of the oldest, and they can't design a functioning website. It's gone on for at least a decade like that. Stuff like this is just amazing. They should look at the Epson website, it just works, you're in and you're out in 5 min. They should have a website just for the printers, and keep all the damn bean counting sales people away from it. Imagine how much good will that alone would produce.
John
We only use genuine HP ink here as well. The hardware has been fine. Prints are beautiful but software is spotty.
jim
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So really, John, there's not much, if anything I would disagree with what you have said. The first iteration - the Z3100's were fantastic. They brought out all the big guns - designers, color technicians, everything, and called upon great photographers and printers for input (weren't you involved?), and created one of the best printers in a long time. This is underscored by how long the very same printers have been in production, with generally interchangeable parts, and the aforementioned (in other previous responses) fantastic attributes that make the Z Series printers unique and exceptional. All that being said, many of the parts used to create this phenomenal printer are cheap and IMO poorly chosen (such as power supply fan, etc.) and the carriage belt, and on and on. Still, in all, we put up with this because of the inks, the printheads, and the spectrophotometer, and abilities to print on numerous papers quickly and easily.
It is a pity that the software is what it is today. IMO it is a miracle the printer and the inks are still available today given how easy it would have been for HP to sImply abandon it. I hope they will continue, and I hope they will enable the Z series machines to evolve so that we can benefit from a long legacy of excellence. Change is inevitable, however, and change is definitely in the wind. In my opinion, HP should press on with the Z's, accomodating professional printers and photographers if only to keep skin in the game. They don't need it or us, let's face it. But it definitely is to their advantage to keep that momentum going. And it doesn't take much to do so....
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Hey Mark,
Did HP give you a lovely golden parachute when you retired? They should have kept you on and could have tripled their sales! ;-)
+1 for all the words about the Z printers. I keep wondering what I'm going to do when my Z finally gives up the ghost? I like Canon for their replaceable heads, but don't like their price for the heads. I have not heard anything compelling about any of the new Epsons, so I don't think I would go down that road again.
Keep my fingers crossed that this old Z3100 goes for another five years, beyond the 9.5 that it has served me so well. BTW, I took down a bunch of my old carts to Office Depot/Office Max, and they gave me $2 store credit each for up to 5 carts each month!!
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I totally agree with what everyone has said here. Having first used the Z3100 then going to the Z3200 I've found it be on the whole a very reliable and easy to use printer. I did like the step up with the Z3200 when they fixed the poor red ink in the 3100, changing to Chromatic red. May well it live long and prosper!
Neal
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A lot of these Z printers are in Fedex-Kinkos and Office Depots now here in Atlanta. It's kinda overkill for them but they like em because they don't have to teach people to do nozzle checks and head cleaning. And they rarely need service. They are always just ready to go and you don't really need any experience to do decent bw either. Every university photo art department should have a few of them, but guess what, none of them do because HP never promoted it. Maybe they will in the future. They are quite interested in designers, and edit promote that, but if they aren't careful Epson is going to take that away from them too.
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HP could easily own the low-volume and private photographer/artist market if they wanted to. They have by far the best product for the job - the Epson models are really geared towards large-volume, constant printing, while the Canons are somewhere in-between. And it's potentially a huge market. You can own a self-profiling, largely maintenance-free large-format printer, capable of printing photo-quality, extremely long-lasting prints on whatever medium you choose, with an integrated cutter, for around the same price as a good (non-sports-model) full-frame camera. It would be a worthwhile investment for anyone who sells prints.
But management at the executive level has been abysmal and lacking in vision for the past decade - almost on the same level as IBM delaying entry into the desktop/microcomputer market by decades because it was 'just a fad' and 'no-one needed a computer at home.'
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I agree that they could own the market - my thoughts exactly (and thoughts that were clearly expressed.).
Trouble is when compared to the major realms that they are mostly involved in, with the new latex printers, etc., and given current "photo print" market shared being split by Canon and Epson, it's "what market? to them imo."
They really don't have anything to prove. And the bottom line is king as it has been ever since the blip on the radar (the Z Series printers.)
Frankly, I'm surprised that they are even continuing to do anything with it at all. They don't need it.
At one point there was a perception that digital photography/printing was going to dominate. Well it did, but so what.
The size of the market which is the indicator for all things feasible for a company like that is the whole story.
I have urged them to at least keep their hat in the ring and not abandon the loyal fans of their printers.
If they come back in for future development, it will be in a BIG way, or not at all.
We've seen what not at all looks like.
But then again, their machines and their inks are still here. Thank goodness they haven't changed any of that.
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I kind of agree with both of you guys. HP sees it as a small market overall, AND it is a potentially BIG market if they marketed it and supported it as such. It wasn't a small market for Kodak, even when they were competing with Agfa and Ilford and even Fuji.
HP made an amazing product and never promoted or advertised it after the first 6 months so/ it never caught on, except for guys like us who went to PhotoExpos or frequented these forums. Ask a typical art student in a major school, like here at Savannah College of Art and Design about the Z series, and they will say Z what? Even their instructors don't know anything about them, and I do work for some of these people and have talked to them. They use all Epson because Epson courts the hell out of them and always have.
I have a question for you Mark, when is the last time you opened a magazine of any kind and saw an ad for a Designjet Printer of any kind?
Like you said, they aren't even trying to market to the general photo buying public or schools or ad photographers or anyone really. Even if you went to their own website it would take you an hour to find anything about their high-end photo printers. They should be on a separate website. Most of the big digital supply houses no longer even carry their ink, much less their photo printers.
We are living in a time when everyone wants to be a photographer and they are not spending millions for all these new cameras that come out every six months just to put things on Facebook. Someone is going to print them somehow. It is a very big market. Might as well be on a printer that is the easiest to use which makes easy bw and prints that last longer than anyone else, while using far less in than the competition, huh? Why aren't the Vivera inks in high-end desktop units of various sizes ? Lots of questions. Maybe they are gong to come out with something soon.
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The logical thing would be to come out with some home- and prosumer-sized 13" and 17" roll- and sheet-fed models first, to reintroduce people to HP inks and printers. Sell them at a competitive price and they'd sell thousands, particularly if they could include a feature (say, a cutting/trimming blade) that would give it a compelling edge over comparable Epson and Canon models for the average user (i.e. not just current HP users, who tend to put a big premium on longevity). Ease of use and easy maintenance won't necessarily be enough to sway the home user. This forms the base of users, and commonality of parts and economies of scale will drive down overall costs, over just having large-format models that sell in far smaller numbers. After securing the base, release the big guns, in 24" and 44" models.
There was a time when HP was competitive with Epson and Canon in the small-format photo printer market. The HP B9180 was up there with the best of them. But they lost that base, once they abandoned the small-format inkjet market to concentrate firstly on large-format models, then on fast-printing, non-photo-quality commercial models instead. They need to reestablish that. It's as if Canon didn't sell any cameras other than the 1Dx and 5Ds lines, and Nikon sold nothing except the D5 and D810 lines - they wouldn't get very far.
The key thing is to keep the clog-free, cheaply-replaced heads and the longevity of the inks. Fiddle with those and you've lost the main reasons for going with HP in the first place. Inbuilt cutters/trimmers and spectros would also be very attractive features, although not mandatory - the last thing low-volume printers want is to spend extra money and add extra steps to their workflow trimming and calibrating new papers (whereas a print shop might print roll after roll of the same paper, and have separate printers for different papers and canvasses, a lone photographer or graphic artist might print each work on a different paper, for optimal presentation).
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The logical thing would be to come out with some home- and prosumer-sized 13" and 17" roll- and sheet-fed models first, to reintroduce people to HP inks and printers. Sell them at a competitive price and they'd sell thousands, particularly if they could include a feature (say, a cutting/trimming blade) that would give it a compelling edge over comparable Epson and Canon models for the average user (i.e. not just current HP users, who tend to put a big premium on longevity). Ease of use and easy maintenance won't necessarily be enough to sway the home user. This forms the base of users, and commonality of parts and economies of scale will drive down overall costs, over just having large-format models that sell in far smaller numbers. After securing the base, release the big guns, in 24" and 44" models.
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with the Z3100 they came up with the consumer HP9180 - an A3+ printer- i have got 3 of them here...
they use the same ( but only4) printheads and ink as the Z's
Although they are "build like a tank" they are far less reliable and easy to use as the Z's. ( only one of the three is working as it should)
They have not so good software and you need to manually clean the heads more often. Also the little cartridges make them expensive in use or even when not in use. They seem to use too much ink when not in use. ( i calculated 200-300€ a year)
So with this in mind they will have to address these problems first before going to the consumer market again with a new model....
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All of these ideas were discussed, so many in fact, it brings back a lot of memories.
Seems like everyone has a love/hate relationship with the company.
I did discuss a table top 13-17" printer, and it was a suggestion that they could own the market if they did the things bandied about in this thread.
But perhaps one most important thing, IMHO, is sheet feed loading on the Z3200.
BTW, it was my view that they just improve or add to the existing Z3200, create some accessories and continue with much the same model.
I shudder to think what would happen if they jumped back into it full force with both feet and came up with a brand new model which would include new and fewer inks.
That, it seems, would be more likely than to continue fiddling with the Z 3200's.
One of the things they could do to make the Z3200 24" and 44" machines function better for photographers would be to add a self loading paper tray that could be sold as an accessory. The last batch loading paper tray I have seen was on the Epson Pro 4800 - one of the best things about that printer.
It was very easy to do a run of 20-25 sheets using that loadable paper cassette. Editions, books, portfolios, you name it, that would do it all.
So I was asked to do a quick sketch of the cassette concept and I did do that and sent it out to them.
Remember this is only a concept sketch - just a starting point.
First of all, it is based on Ernst Dinkla's method which he shared with me, long ago, of loading paper from the back, on top of the roller, or on top of a roll that is rolled up and sitting there. Since using Ernst's method, I rarely have any sheets that won't feed.
So I sent drawings - just quick sketches and crossed my fingers, and hope they might do something with this in the future.
Since it would be an accessory, it could be used on any model. But that's my idea, doubt it would be theirs, since there are so many issues retrofitting.
At any rate, I did this gratis, hoping they will perhaps embrace the idea. One other idea I had was to make the front panel LED reversible so that it could be accessed from the back. And yes, there was a lot of discussion about front loading paper, which really should be a no-brainer since we already have the "paper move" function that rolls paper in or out.
Again, we'll just have to wait and see. For my money, I would just as soon see a re-tooled Z3200X rather than a Z3300A with new ink and new features.
Complain as we all do, it's still the best printer out there for a lot of people and seems a no-brainer to do at least one more run with it.
Remember, the sketch is a concept sketch - by no means anything serious. We discussed a lot of things. If just some ideas are used, it would be great.
Mark
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I have a question for you Mark, when is the last time you opened a magazine of any kind and saw an ad for a Designjet Printer of any kind?
I guess the question would be: "when is the last time you opened a magazine", LOL.
Point(s) taken, however.
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I opened Art In America today, but I know what you mean :)
But it seems like every time I make an order for my media supplier it get one of the big gloss brochures of the Epson or Canon line. I never saw one of those from HP. When HP sends me any email is is about some cheap computer or something, never the highend products.
I agree with Mark, I would rather see an updated Z3200, with the same inks ( or take the green out and add a very light gray option that would be fantastic and not hard for them to do) a little faster speed, and that sheet paper tray you designed. That's fantastic Mark. I knew Ernst was loading from the back and I copied him doing that, but if your paper isn't completely flat and trimmed perfectly it still takes you five minutes to load a letter size sheet. But I'm not that picky about that, hell I'm fine using rolls for everything, but for most people the sheet feeding is the most annoying thing about the Z. It is the only poorly thought part of their otherwise excellently designed printer. If they come out with any new art printer surely that would be the first thing they would fix.
I guess the question would be: "when is the last time you opened a magazine", LOL.
Point(s) taken, however.
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I shudder to think what would happen if they jumped back into it full force with both feet and came up with a brand new model which would include new and fewer inks.
New inks are inevitable, and not necessarily a bad thing, provided longevity stays the same or improves further. Ten years of further development in pigment encapsulation resins, carrier fluids and print heads mean that newly-developed inks can carry a far higher pigment load than previous inks. And we've seen what that can do, in comparisons between Canon's Lucia Pro inks and the older Lucia EX, as well as between Epson's HDX vs the older HDR inks.
Fewer inks would be a very bad thing. Artists and photographers can always use wider gamut, more saturation (particularly hard to achieve in lighter tones) and deeper blacks. Cutting down the number of inks may make for faster and (possibly) more economical printing for print shops churning out banners and advertising material by the hectare (they're probably using solvent, latex or UV technology for most applications anyway) but is nothing but bad news for the photographers, artists and graphic designers who would be most interested in a photo-oriented aqueous inkjet.
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Remember, the sketch is a concept sketch - by no means anything serious. We discussed a lot of things. If just some ideas are used, it would be great.
Mark
Some years ago I thought about a similar concept but never made one. The slots the normal sheetfeeder uses, left and right, could also be used to hook in a larger feeding tray. Feeding 102x72 cm sheets landscape wise, as I have done, would require a wide tray anyway. On a roll cutting plotter I have made a kind of register table years ago, to cut silkscreen printed membrane keyboards and simple stickers, small runs. Worked quite fast. It is true that sheet feeding is taking too much time in handling. One easy aspect to solve though is in the software, a single button click to repeat the media setting already done on the first sheet speeds up the process already, now we have to go through the whole process again and again. For register front and back side printing, I load the sheet at an angle on purpose and then wait for the error to get a chance to use home made register tabs at the front side. If a sheet loading mode is added where you can put the sheet against tabs right away (at the front or on a new feeder at the back) then those jobs go faster too.
If there has to be an extra printer model I would go for a 24" model for sheets with a roll feeding option, instead of the other way around. I think a larger printer does more justice to the head design than possible within a 13" model. The B9180 experience I had (and two of my customers had) was not that positive. My gut feeling is that the heads require a maintenance station in Z3200 style, so way bigger than the B9180 could use.
I would not advise HP to enter the consumer photo printer market again, say at A4, A3, sizes. The distribution channels are different from the channels needed for office printers, CAD wide format inkjets and the sign etc printers. The competition in that sector is heavy. Even a 17" printer would be a risky launch into the market. Canon did not update its model in that category, Epson only late for the x900 range. I bet only that model sells in high enough quantities now.
For ink gamut I am happy with today's Vivera inks. Maybe HP could improve the scratch resistance more by borrowing something of its Latex ink technology. If it does not sacrifice gloss, gamut and longevity in that modification. On ink cartridges; the easiest upgrade would be a software change that allows the use of the 300 ML 772 cartridges for the inks that are consumed most. The 8 ink 772 cartridge range is already in the distribution channels, maybe the Gray and Gloss Enhancer inks could appear in 772 300 ML cart model too. If not worth it in a commercial sense then forget the last. The RGB inks only in 130ML carts, good enough with the print volume I have.
While I expect that the CAD Designjet distribution channel is also suited for the Z3200, Z5400, etc, it may be worth it to create a separate portal for promoting the photo quality wide format printers and to support its users. This LuLa forum is probably the most frequently used information center for Z3100/Z3200 users right now. The Designjet mailing list at Yahoo is almost dead, the 3 messages that appear there on schedule (asking for moderators etc) flatter the messages quantity by more than 100%! Mailing lists lost their appeal anyway, this includes the one I moderate at Yahoo. HP could do itself a favor by supporting a blog style website for the Z3200 etc models where it has less control on content but could rely on users that have an interest in the Z3200 concept themselves. Today information is scattered on aged Wiki pages, mailing list archives, some fora and HP's own web pages. Accumulating the free information at one spot + an Underground map to guide users through the HP website would do wonders for existing and potential users. HP technology could fill in any market segment, niche or large, but selling that technology into this segment seems to be a problem. Any other segment of the printers/printing market and HP is present, if not dominant.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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They should probably have a 16x20 inch size desktop unit like Canon and Epson. I believe both Canson and Epson have way too many printers and inksets though. Can you imagine what that cost to produce, stock, and ship all that inventory? It's crazy and they seem to come out with a new desktop unit every 6 months.
I'm printing with my 9 year old Z right now and the prints on Platine look excellent. Only reason I don't use it all the time is because it's so slow. For my personal work I wouldn't care.
j
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By 16x20, do you mean the size of the printer, or the size of the prints?
There's definitely a need for a desktop unit, along the lines of the P800 or Pro-1000. It would probably outsell the bigger models by a factor of 10 or greater, and the commonality of parts and consumables would keep costs down. Many non-landscape photographers don't print wider than 13" or 17" anyway, apart from occasional jobs that are easily outsourced, and many people just don't have the space for a big printer, much as they'd like one. But I don't see any role for a photo printer larger than A4 size that can't take roll paper; Canon's omission of that in the Pro-1000 is a huge tick in favour of the Epson P800. There are just too many papers out there unavailable in sheet form, and too many photos whose aspect ratio is such that a 13x19" or 17x25" sheet would give you an unusably-small print and a lot of wasted paper.
Introduce a 13" or 17" roll-fed desktop unit, as well as 24" and 44" stand units, and you'd have all bases covered with only three models, and near-total commonality of parts apart from casings.
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It's my feeling they won't necessarily get into the desktop size printer again. Too many problems.
The paper cassette tray that uses the roll paper spindle would be a great thing, especially if it could be used (with adapters) on both sizes of the Z's.
Realize that those sketches are just 2 of six pages. Other pages show a motor drive, etc.
You guys are right, that borrowing from the latex technology would be interesting if not excellent, however it leaves these printers in the dust, to become obsolete in short order. Hopefully, there will be some ways in which the Vivera inks can be used down the road. The writing is on the wall with Vivera. Sad to say.
I'd like to see an accessory plain and simple for sheet feed handling. Hopefully an upgrade to software to allow feeding from the front, and even a fence guide in the front as an accessory. I'd be happy with just that. As it is, now, I have a table in front of the printer to allow pushing the paper along at the right height. Works well and can be totally unattended and I will not come back to see the print curled up on itself, but instead, nice and flat and no trimming required.
We can all dream, but they march to the beat of a different drummer. There is no telling if the cassette will become a reality.
I am not holding my breath.
I'm just glad the Barcelona team is still there and flourishing.
Mark
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I'll bet if you go back and do searches for HP Z posts on the web you'll find most of them are by Ernst and me, and recently Mark. I've never seen a post by anyone in authority. I found out about the printer from Ernst right before I went to NY to see one.
But I know those Barcelona guys are smart and sincere because we met them. It made a big impression on me because I had never met any photo tech guys who actually got a bunch of people together and asked, " what do you guys want" and they wrote everything down. We tried to talk to the Epson guys and they were smart ass jerks telling us what they would give us for our own good. We asked the Canon reps how the dither was on the just released Prograph machines they had there. They said "dinner" and Walker said not dinner, "dither", and they said what's dither? The first Canon's were quite coarse, but the Z3100 was quite sharp and all the other features were so cool.
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Mark:
Are you saying there is something new from HP? I thought the Barcelona bunch was all disbanded several years ago, have they got a new design team there now? Or is this all from memories many years ago?
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I'll bet if you go back and do searches for HP Z posts on the web you'll find most of them are by Ernst and me, and recently Mark. I've never seen a post by anyone in authority. I found out about the printer from Ernst right before I went to NY to see one.
But I know those Barcelona guys are smart and sincere because we met them.
I'm surprised you would say that John (that I have been only posting recently). Michael Reichmann did a video review and showed setting up the Z3100 when it first came out.
Michael Reichmann Installing the HP Z3100 printer 2007 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAXJjJBwGFY)
I immediately bought a Z3100 44" and hardly touched our other printers - particularly the epsons and a Canon. I posted quite a bit back then. When the belt broke I had a hissy: Broken Belt Rant 2013 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=74474.0), but most of my posts before then were about how to improve the printer or how to do something or profile one paper one way over another, mostly driving patient Ernst crazy over the years :-). And Neil Snape in Paris who was very active back then helped a great deal. If you go back and search, you'll see I was there, right from the beginning with the Z3100.
2007 modifying the Z3100 Printer (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=20524.0)
A 2007 Post example (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=19712.0;nowap)
A 2010 post for example (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=45187.0)
You're right, the Barcelona folks are brilliant, friendly and geniuses. I was very impressed with our guest who came to visit. He took back about 20-25 prints, so apparently he was impressed with me as well.
And man they work. We spent the whole day working non-stop. I have never seen anyone take such copious notes and keep the conversation going simultaneously.
For John Nollendorf: Yes, they are definitely alive and well, the team in Barcelona. It's a big deal and they are working on a lot of things, but have not been doing anything with the Z's for a long time because they've been involved with latex and other printers. They have not forgotten about us.
I can't say if they are doing a new Z3300 or whatever because I really don't know.
The execs play their hands really close to the vest, as they should. They know what I would like to see and that covers most everyone's concerns here on the forum.
By the way, I just found this thread from 2007 about the very same things were still discussing now:
Will HP finally make a... (http://lula.brainwebhosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=21218.0)
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You guys are right, that borrowing from the latex technology would be interesting if not excellent, however it leaves these printers in the dust, to become obsolete in short order. Hopefully, there will be some ways in which the Vivera inks can be used down the road. The writing is on the wall with Vivera. Sad to say.
I hope they don't replace the aqueous Vivera printers with latex. Those things make perfectly good signage, but terrible photos, and are outlasted in the longevity stakes by solvent and UV.
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By the way, I just found this thread from 2007 about the very same things were still discussing now:
Will HP finally make a... (http://lula.brainwebhosting.com/forum/index.php?topic=21218.0)
Mark,
We (Johns and me) used to read and write in the Epson Wide Format mailing list at Yahoo for a very long time. When the HP Zs and the Canon iPFs appeared on the market we continued the discussions there till it became annoying for the moderator and some list members there. There was no support to change that list to one that covered more brands so a new list was created that did that, more or less the one I still moderate. At the same time LuLa became more important for wide format inkjet users. I think our perspective who wrote about the HP Zs at that time may be distorted by the different fora we used then.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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I hope they don't replace the aqueous Vivera printers with latex. Those things make perfectly good signage, but terrible photos, and are outlasted in the longevity stakes by solvent and UV.
Not my suggestion either, I have seen the image quality differences. I wrote "Maybe HP could improve the scratch resistance more by borrowing something of its Latex ink technology. If it does not sacrifice gloss, gamut and longevity in that modification." The latest Canon inks seem to have an advantage over the Epson and HP inks on that aspect. All are dispersions, one way or the other, maybe an ink medium can be found that improves the scratch resistance.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Not my suggestion either, I have seen the image quality differences. I wrote "Maybe HP could improve the scratch resistance more by borrowing something of its Latex ink technology. If it does not sacrifice gloss, gamut and longevity in that modification." The latest Canon inks seem to have an advantage over the Epson and HP inks on that aspect. All are dispersions, one way or the other, maybe an ink medium can be found that improves the scratch resistance.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Look at HP inks under an electron microscope and you'll see that most of the pigment particles are significantly larger than Canon and Epson ink particles. This probably accounts for a lot of their longevity (after all, many of the pigments they use are chemically identical). Maybe it also accounts for HP inks' greater susceptibility to scratching - I'd imagine it would be easier to move larger particles that stick out further from the underlying surface and aren't as strongly bound down.
Perhaps the answer to scratch resistance doesn't lie in the inks themselves, but in altering the gloss optimiser that overprints everything. Use the gloss optimiser to lay down a hard-wearing surface to physically protect the print, in addition to equalising the gloss. Also, take the gloss optimiser out of the 12th ink slot and put it on its own separate rail to be laid down on top of the printed inks. It covers the entire surface of the print and gets used up faster than anything else, so it deserves its own huge tank; this is probably the easiest way to do it. It doesn't need a fine, high-resolution head capable of 4pL droplets either - it's just laying down an even layer of clear stuff, so a head that's fast, cheap and maintenance free would probably do better. And use that 12th ink slot for something else - say, a blue or violet, for extended colour gamut.
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If I had an electron microscope I'd take a look., maybe. The original Epson "Archival" CF inkset also had larger particles and that inkset was rated the same as the just released Epson set. They were also encapsulated with a polymer resin, but a lot duller than the HP inks. They didn't scratch as easily as the Vivera set .The HP gloss prints are the most vulnerable, due to the tender gloss enhancer, but the matt prints are vulnerable too. I never worried about it because I always coat both gloss fiber and the matte prints with the Hahnemuhle spray. For me it was always a small price to pay for doubling the light fastness.
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I agree the hahnemüle spray does a good job.
But it is a bit clumsy for large prints.
I really like the deep blacks when printing BW on matte hahnemühle 308 paper, but find that those the most vulnerable parts of all.
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Epson inks on canvas seem bullet proof to scratching.That is one thing I miss now that our Epson printers are gone. I'm with John, that a few coats of protective spray is a small pprprice to pay for the quality.
I've been advocation a spray protective coating right in the printer for a long time. Discussed it during HP's visit, and there seemed to be interest, but I rather doubt it.
Tougher inks have already been developed that already test better. Vivera is awesome, but keeping an open mind, it will be interesting to see what the future brings.
It's very difficult to top the 12 inks Vivera ionkinkset however. If they move on and burn bridges, that could be difficult to get back. What we are able to do with the Z's after so many years working with them is very special. I did. Bring up the point that this machine has become iconic to a lot of people.
Eventually, they will be overrun but I really wonder what inks could be used to keep them going for another 10-15 years? The parts for repair are still plentiful, and a lot is off the shelf, so they could easily last another 10 years to those of us to whom it matters. Printheads and ink. The thought occurs to me to begin hoarding printheads. Just how to store them however....
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Mark,
We (Johns and me) used to read and write in the Epson Wide Format mailing list at Yahoo for a very long time. When the HP Zs and the Canon iPFs appeared on the market we continued the discussions there till it became annoying for the moderator and some list members there. There was no support to change that list to one that covered more brands so a new list was created that did that, more or less the one I still moderate. At the same time LuLa became more important for wide format inkjet users. I think our perspective who wrote about the HP Zs at that time may be distorted by the different fora we used then.
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2016 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
Thanks Ernst, Got it. - Mark
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Epson inks on canvas seem bullet proof to scratching.That is one thing I miss now that our Epson printers are gone.
Just few days ago I had a potential customer who wanted to order canvas print, but did not like protective coating. I had some old uncoated canvas prints that was just tests for another order. To show how canvas prints are sensitive I spray paper towel with windows cleaner and rub the print. I felt like fool when nothing happened. I moist paper towel once again and rub harder - again nothing?! Not even a hint of ink on paper towel! Print just looks wet and shiny. I really felt like an idiot. Canvas was from HP - I am not sure which one, probably Collector Satin - printer was Z 3100!!
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I know Mark I think about that a lot, especially the Red ( which you so very kindly sent me several of for the 3100 ) and the red-black heads. I need to do that soon.
People think gelatin silver prints and platinum and salt print are exotic artifacts of photography, but really what you and Ernst and I did with the Z and Vivera are going to be seen much more that way, and they will last longer than silver prints if the right papers are used.
There is absolutely no reason for them to dump that inkset with the chromatic red. It is a historic achievement, really the biggest in color photography. When I was in graduate school my colleagues' prints shifted in a few years. Everone of their bodies of word are gone now, in the ground.
And, like we said most people don't even know about or understand that Hp achievement. I know big art galleries don't, they often ask me when I sell them a print, " is that different from a type C print, and should I call it archival ". I'm serious. The technology is more sophisticated than the art world.
john
The parts for repair are still plentiful, and a lot is off the shelf, so they could easily last another 10 years to those of us to whom it matters. Printheads and ink. The thought occurs to me to begin hoarding printheads. Just how to store them however....
[/quote]
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I'm serious. The technology is more sophisticated than the art world.
john
You said a mouthful there John. Ultimately, the art world hinges on the secondary market and the auction houses. That's where the rubber meets the road. Art historians literally are the arbiters of taste, not the gallerists. Once an artwork establishes itself in the auction with a significant price history begins to take over. There is an obfuscation of the digital print because of so much schlock out there. What sells in the auction houses is not digital, so film and prints made by archaic methods continue to dominate world markets. There are a few exceptions however, although those "artists" damage perceptions in my view, Not naming names because I don't want to start an "art war".
Art historians view digital prints with suspicion, and an "everything is Gicle" eye. The technology is misunderstood because for the most part the art gets in the way. Additionally there is the stigma of the "master", in the cases of the modern masters and we all know who they are. I have no doubt that you or I or Ernst could take any film print done by any so-called master, and make it utterly sing, so improved is the technology at this point. But that is not the mission of the art historian, Theirs is to document what technology was used at the time of significant and major breakthroughs in art and art history of the time.
In the end, there will be art historians who will have a greater understanding of digital technology and there will be plenty of evidence of longevity of prints and those that do make it, ie are still among the living will no doubt be seen as revolutionary in hindsight, particularly in comparison to their counterparts.
What HP has accomplished with their Vivera Inks and their delivery systems will play a significant role in historical documentation. That is one point I tried to hammer home; there is a significant achievement that has empowered many artists with a technology that is vastly evolved over what has become the mainstay of galleries and auction houses. Once the floodgates open, there will be a renaissance of sorts and the dark ages will be a thing of the past (not that there is anything wrong with it).
Ultimately we're talking about image longevity and stability. Chances are it will occur to many that in order to protect the film iconography that this realm of master comprises,that digital prints will be the ultimate answer for any sort of archival surety, certainly the only reliable solution when it comes to objects with museum heft.
I feel I understand it and I have tried to explain this to HP and anyone else who will listen but skepticism lingers even in the face of proof. That's not my problem however, it is theirs, and ultimately it will become burdensome in the not too distant future.
By the way, I don't mean to exclude Canon or Epson from this discussion, it's just that I'm sticking with the horse I have chosen and have the most faith in regarding longevity and archivalness.
I'm working at making as many of my most significant and important prints as I can, now, knowing that an end is near, for what might possibly be called the golden age of digital printing. If HP pulls out by not expanding on the potential of their fine art printing products, it will indeed be the end of an era for many.
In that regard, considering the historicity that is at stake, that would be a tragedy, a significant loss ultimately, for the art world and many photographers and printers who have invested heavily in their technology and vision. The thought that this one series of printers in the face of all the rest that HP produces, could ultimately assure their place in history, due to simple longevity, is critical for them to understand if they are to move forward in this arena as they have in the past with the one brief yet most significant achievement via the Barcelona team.
Mark
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Amen Mark.
And I have the greatest respect for the Barcelona team within the history of color photography. And I know Ernst does too. I think they should be regarded up there with the Machintosh team. Maybe someday they will.
My feeling is that it is very important for us to have three major players within this technological endeavor - Epson, Canon, and HP. And that is remarkable in itself in a world of Google and Amazon hegemony.
How you have time to advise, think about these things, and function as a world class wood sculptor I'll never know. But thanks for all you shared with HP.