Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: alan_b on August 03, 2016, 12:49:44 am
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Sounds like a house of cards about to crumble. Too bad, I like my pack.
http://resourcemagonline.com/2016/08/an-inside-look-at-f-stop-a-bag-company-falling-apart-at-the-seams/68877/ (http://resourcemagonline.com/2016/08/an-inside-look-at-f-stop-a-bag-company-falling-apart-at-the-seams/68877/)
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When businesses are based on someone's ego instead of real passion for a product, that's the result. Crowdfunding is a great tool, but often it's being used to fund people's wish lists instead of good ideas.
I used to be interested in one of their backpacks, but never managed to justify myself the cost nor the hoops to go through to get one. I'll keep buying Lowepro.
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Their backpacks amazing! Their customer service is good, but limited to the fact that they do have HUGE stock and management problems. I wish them well, but have my fears about their future.
It would be a shame, because I have used lots of gear but never anything hing close as good for hiking.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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It was obvious something was wrong as they have very little in stock and message is always the same about 6 months or so for more product.
I noticed Lowe's Whister pack has a similar design to f-stop so the patents may have run out.
Paul C
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Sounds like a house of cards about to crumble. Too bad, I like my pack.
http://resourcemagonline.com/2016/08/an-inside-look-at-f-stop-a-bag-company-falling-apart-at-the-seams/68877/ (http://resourcemagonline.com/2016/08/an-inside-look-at-f-stop-a-bag-company-falling-apart-at-the-seams/68877/)
The signal was a company as old and established as F-Stop using Kickstarter! At this point, if generated revenues were not sufficient to fund development of a new product, then the company has a problem that Kickstarter is not designed to solve. Especially in light of the CEOs spendthrift ways.
I look back at the progression of Really Right Stuff going from a husband and wife running a small niche business to what it is today. I doubt Bryan and Kathy could have done that had they maintained ownership. In fact, I think they didn't want to do that and were smart enough to know that if they tried it would fail.
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Too bad, because they have good products. I did do the women's shorter-torso pack Kickstarter project, which was predictably several months late.The F stop people did send out monthly updates on the status.
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The signal was a company as old and established as F-Stop using Kickstarter! At this point, if generated revenues were not sufficient to fund development of a new product, then the company has a problem that Kickstarter is not designed to solve. Especially in light of the CEOs spendthrift ways.
Agree. Kickstarter and crowdfunding in general are a great asset for startups and new ideas, but a company that has been working for many years shouldn't rely on such an unpredictable form of funding for their product development.
It truly is a sign something up top isn't right, it implies they can't get funding from investors nor banks which means they are most probably in deep debt and nobody trusts them anymore.
I'm sure that if/when they close, someone else will quickly take their place.
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Alan - thanks for posting this...nice to finally get some clear info. on it the issue. /Brandt
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What is even more disturbing, is that their website appears to still be taking orders for products that more than likely will never arrive. I have been trying to order a Shinn for almost 1 year now, and it's only been in stock 1 time, but in the wrong color.
Right now you can go through the entire order process, to where they ask for a card info, there is no mention of if they are charging now? or when the product is in stock.
Just curious, as if they do declare bankruptcy and re-structure, all of those orders will be lost to the person who ordered (that is if they charge the card).
Paul C
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The signal was a company as old and established as F-Stop using Kickstarter!
That, in itself, is not a sign at all.
Lots of established and very well-off companies use Kickstarter these days for extra publicity, not for funding, even though that's arguably a nice extra for them (and get criticized for doing so, as it undermines the whole idea...)
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Do they actually have a dealer network?
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That, in itself, is not a sign at all.
Lots of established and very well-off companies use Kickstarter these days for extra publicity, not for funding, even though that's arguably a nice extra for them (and get criticized for doing so, as it undermines the whole idea...)
I would never contribute to Kickstarter funding of a product by an established company. The point of Kickstarter is to allow funding of projects that cannot get funding from traditional sources. They tend to carry much higher risk or at least have a much smaller market potential or the entity has high risk of failure. If an established company cannot get funding via traditional paths, it is because the source believes that either the product or company are not viable. That is, the smart money has decided to sit it out.
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I would never contribute to Kickstarter funding of a product by an established company.
Neither would I.
But just think about it: even Meyer-Optik founded in 19th century have had two Kickstarter campaigns...
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Neither would I.
But just think about it: even Meyer-Optik founded in 19th century have had two Kickstarter campaigns...
Desperate...
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I'm one of many who had problems with F-Stop. I ordered an ICU, it actually arrived, from Hong Kong. Sadly, I had erred in my measurement and it did not fit the Osprey bag in which I wanted to use it so I called and returned it in untouched condition. It took many weeks to get the refund. Then... I got a bill from UPS for over $100 for shipping. I had already paid the listed $15 so after calling UPS found out that it was F-Stop with the problem. I've heard great things about the bags and get but never heard a good word about their service. This bad news about the company is not a surprise to me. These are bleeping backpacks, sewn together pieces of nylon, not exactly a complex high tech electronic item.
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... These are bleeping backpacks, sewn together pieces of nylon, not exactly a complex high tech electronic item.
And still if you actually want to hike and use them in difficult conditions there are nearly no photo backpack alternatives.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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And still if you actually want to hike and use them in difficult conditions there are nearly no photo backpack alternatives.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
What about external frame backpacks?
Take an ALICE pack (or one of the new, lightweight carbon fibre ones) and you can hook anything you like up to it, up to and including Pelican cases.
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Neither would I.
But just think about it: even Meyer-Optik founded in 19th century have had two Kickstarter campaigns...
Desperate...
Exactly.
Maybe Rollei should've done a kickstarter to save the Hy6?
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An original upside for Fstop gear aside from design, price, functionality - was the low weight. There was nothing comparable when they first started manufacturing. Unfortunately other manufacturers a little late to this game are still not factoring that in to the design equations adquately. When you are on a multi-day mountain trek with large DSLR gear (as opposed to small Sony mirrorless types) - weight can and does matter to many users. Sometimes down to the odd ounce here and there.
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And still if you actually want to hike and use them in difficult conditions there are nearly no photo backpack alternatives.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
Hi Christopher,
Actually Lowe has several good designs, and now with the Whistler series they have a design like F-Stop where the opening is against the back.
Personally I like the F-stop pack, but would still prefer to have the main opening on the outside, just personal pref.
I also wonder what Phase One will do, as they had offered one of the F-stop packs and ICU's on their site.
Paul C
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Paul, while the Whistler is a great pack, and I have way too many Lowepro packs, it weighs 6.5lb empty. That's pretty heavy compared to many alternatives. Not to get into a side discussion on packs and weight, but my Mindshift 26L back opening pack weighs 3.9lb. Packs can be a sensitive subject so I don't want to go too far with this. It's just that F-Stop makes (made?) great products and it's a shame that it seems they're falling apart.
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https://www.dpreview.com/news/8012110697/f-stop-abandons-kitsentry-kickstarter-doesn-t-offer-backers-refunds
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https://www.dpreview.com/news/8012110697/f-stop-abandons-kitsentry-kickstarter-doesn-t-offer-backers-refunds
Well, there is a shocker! :o Any Kickstarter is a risk, but especially one by a company that if run well would have ready access to capital.
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Not sure how much I can trust this, but I love their bags and have a couple already. I would love to buy another one just to have a backup in case the company actually does go under.
http://fstopgear.com/news/2016-06/recent-update#.V6THQ6OgOkq (http://fstopgear.com/news/2016-06/recent-update#.V6THQ6OgOkq)
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Took some advice from a post on a different forum, called them, and had the pack in 4 days, and the XL ICU.
They are alive and well.
Paul C
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Took some advice from a post on a different forum, called them, and had the pack in 4 days, and XL
Lucky you... A friend of mine ordered a Sukha bag, a ICU for it and an extra set of straps for me (I own another bag from them) in May... In May they already took the money from the credit card and still no bag... No ICU... And no straps... Lots of e-mails and no satisfying reply... I will try call them as you suggest...
http://dgpfotografia.com
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Seems F-Stop is getting better and/or maintaining current/reworked supply chain .
Ordered a Lotus 32L on Aug. 13, 2016 and received it today Aug. 17 2016(shipped from Hong Kong warehouse to Ontario). Just finished putting all my gear in the bag. Holds the gear I have for weekend treks, plus extra room for other stuff. Perfect!
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I talked with my friend today... In theory two containers with bags arrived to the European storage facility... Waiting to be clear by customs... Let's see what happens
http://dgpfotografia.com
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I would never contribute to Kickstarter funding of a product by an established company. The point of Kickstarter is to allow funding of projects that cannot get funding from traditional sources. They tend to carry much higher risk or at least have a much smaller market potential or the entity has high risk of failure. If an established company cannot get funding via traditional paths, it is because the source believes that either the product or company are not viable. That is, the smart money has decided to sit it out.
Figuring out what is a good product proposal and what is not is hard. It is hard for start-ups trying to get capital, and it is hard for people inside a large company to get the resources and attention needed.
You could use a "clever dictator" to sort out ideas (some think that Apple used to be like that). Or you could have comittees and customer research.
I tend to think that kickstarter and the like are just another means of figuring out what are good ideas based on what users are actually willing to put their money on. It is not a flawless process, but it seems to inspire some new products that we might not see otherwise.
-h
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and it is hard for people inside a large company to get the resources and attention needed.
wait a second... so people inside a large company can simply go to kickstarter and under that company name start collect money ? can't happen w/o that company management decision, no ?
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Are there any alternatives at all to F-Stop larger bags? I saw the Lowepro Whistler, it looks nice, but they're too small, I don't fit my medium format gear in there. I use a F-Stop XL ICU in a Satori EXP pack (no longer made it seems, but they have a replacement product).
The thing is with camera bags, despite so many manufacturers out there, the only one with reasonable design and large enough I've found is F-Stop. I'm very pleased with the backpack and ICU, but it seems impossible to get hold of replacements/additionals if I should need some :(
I don't know the fully story behind, but it seems quite obvious to me that there must be a management issue with the company, it seems like almost everybody loves their bags but for years they have had problems to deliver.
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wait a second... so people inside a large company can simply go to kickstarter and under that company name start collect money ? can't happen w/o that company management decision, no ?
No.
http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/1/8874943/sony-crowdfunding-platform-first-flight-launch
-h
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No.
http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/1/8874943/sony-crowdfunding-platform-first-flight-launch
-h
that is a little different I think... what I mean 'd be in this case - some Sony employee goes to Kickstarter on his/her own and starts a campaign there promising that the item (to be funded) will be made and sold by Sony and does that behind Sony's management back...
and in Sony's case they also want to make a platform - which is certainly an attempt to see if something profitable will grow up from the platform itself (which Sony owns then)
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Fortunately there seems to be some new and some used product showing up on Ebay - changes weekly. I bought a new Guru (this was part of a large group of new product - probably from some Fstop employee/former employee since it was from same town - all now gone), a pro ICU, and most recently a new Sukha. There is a new Tilopa and some used gear as well currently on Ebay. Worth staying on top of if you like the gear but don't want to gamble with ordering directly from Fstop.
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Figuring out what is a good product proposal and what is not is hard. It is hard for start-ups trying to get capital, and it is hard for people inside a large company to get the resources and attention needed.
You could use a "clever dictator" to sort out ideas (some think that Apple used to be like that). Or you could have comittees and customer research.
I tend to think that kickstarter and the like are just another means of figuring out what are good ideas based on what users are actually willing to put their money on. It is not a flawless process, but it seems to inspire some new products that we might not see otherwise.
-h
Yes, Kickstarter and similar crowd funding sources are great places for ideas to get a chance. It is made for joe shmoe that has an idea, but no source of funding. The way of things is that if it works out, a company will be born.
An established company already has funding sources. If they do not have access to capital, then it means they are incompetent and their funding sources no longer have confidence in their ability to properly utilize the capital.
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Yes, Kickstarter and similar crowd funding sources are great places for ideas to get a chance. It is made for joe shmoe that has an idea, but no source of funding. The way of things is that if it works out, a company will be born.
An established company already has funding sources. If they do not have access to capital, then it means they are incompetent and their funding sources no longer have confidence in their ability to properly utilize the capital.
Well that is not always the case, some companies do not want to give up a piece of their company for capital investment or wish to pay credit card type rates, so then a reliable company can use kickstarter to fund the production of a product. The reputable ones have already done the r&d, the prototyping and are ready for production. That previous work cost money so I can see lots of reasons why kickstarter can be a source of funding and it has nothing to do with how they use capital.
Alan
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that is a little different I think... what I mean 'd be in this case - some Sony employee goes to Kickstarter on his/her own and starts a campaign there promising that the item (to be funded) will be made and sold by Sony and does that behind Sony's management back...
I don't understand where you are going with this.
If some employee goes behind his managements back, his management will probably be angry with him. Sony should not feel obliged to push a product that some employee put on Kickstarter without management approval.
-h
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Yes, Kickstarter and similar crowd funding sources are great places for ideas to get a chance. It is made for joe shmoe that has an idea, but no source of funding. The way of things is that if it works out, a company will be born.
An established company already has funding sources. If they do not have access to capital, then it means they are incompetent and their funding sources no longer have confidence in their ability to properly utilize the capital.
Just like startups can have a hard time finding capital, I would assume that larger companies can have a hard time finding capital. Perhaps we are all incompetent to some degree, and the ability of investors to judge our competence is itself a question of competence...
Anyways, even a company that have lots of capital may have issues with what products to spend throw their capital at. This should be quite clear from the stream of silly or boring products that fail in the market coming from large companies. Given 2000 ideas and the resources to realize 20, it must be hard to pick the 20 most promising ideas.
Is see crowdfunding as an alternate method to pick those 20. With pros and cons, no doubt. Ie the main thing for Sony is (perhaps) not to raise the actual money, but to let prospective customers put their money where their mouth is. Sort of like how governments or organizations occasionally will "double up" on peoples donations, effectively using those people to sort out good causes from less good causes.
-h
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F-stop definitely has the most convenient bags, presuming you are not packing for hours and presuming the bag fits your torso well. Another option is a big daypack with a suspension that fits you exactly and with a deep and broad J or U shaped zipper access on the side opposite your back. My Gregory Jade 38L daypack accommodates the F-stop shallow ICUs well. My weekend pack Osprey Ariel 55L also does so, and could easily handle a deep/XL ICU .
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I talked with my friend today... In theory two containers with bags arrived to the European storage facility... Waiting to be clear by customs... Let's see what happens
http://dgpfotografia.com
Just as an update, this week my friend got his backpack and its ICU, still waiting for the extra straps sets that we ordered (those ones are for me :( ). It "just" took more than 4 months and a lot of e-mails...
http://dgpfotografia.com
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For anyone who is worried as I was, my bag (the Sukha) with some gatekeeper straps arrived in about two and a half weeks to Toronto.
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Interesting. Never used FStop bags.
But since someone posted Lowepro. I have their larger backpack and regret not getting wheels. For any bag I get now, unless going very light (only body and a couple lenses) I will get a wheeled bag.
Oddly LowePro has ZERO messenger style bags.
The "messenger" bag is my favorite design as it gives me direct access without sling or putting anything down.
So there is an old Tamrac that is a bit on the large side that is messenger and with rollers. I love it, but need a bit smaller with rollers and messenger.
I wish I was a bag designer!!! :-) If think many folks have a bag in mind specific to their needs.
I tried to find this magic bag, and now have maybe 15 bags....Out of all I use the VanGuard Uprise38(ne rollers, compact) the most, and the old Tamrac with rollers for more gear needs.
In the years that I have had a backpack style bad, even for tekking, I have only used the LowePro large backpack as storage, and Never carry it as a backpack with gear.
I've realized backpack style bags do NOT work for me.
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I agree on long trips. the wheeled bag makes good sense.
Which wheeled bags do you recommend?
Paul C
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If you travel much outside of the USA on foreign carriers, be careful of wheeled bags. They are vastly more likely to be required to be checked than a backpack and way more likely to be weighed. With 5 to 10kg (11 to 22lb) limits essentially universal on non US carriers and many airlines, especially European ones that enforce those limits, the wheeled bag not only raises suspicions by ticketing agents, they also generally weigh more than a backpack with similar capacity reducing the amount of gear you can bring in the cabin. If you mostly travel inside the USA, the wheeled carriers are great.