Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Justinr on July 15, 2016, 04:54:13 pm
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Or so they appear to claim. It looks as if there is a full scale coup going on in Turkey tonight with the state TV station closed down, Jets flying over Ankara and the Bosphorus bridges closed. Erdogan is not a popular man in many European countries and even less so amongst the army it seems.
Several points to note -
1. Merkel was thought to be close to Erdogan and Germany wished to see Turkey join the EU.
2. Turkey is deeply involved in the middle east wars and alliances with strong Muslim sympathies, Erdogan is a keen Islamist anyway.
3. It is not unforeseeble for other countries (Russia?) to get involved resulting in yet another civil war.
4. Turkey has been trying to appear a modern country in the western mould to encourage trade but military coups don't reinforce that perception.
5. Turkey under Erdogan has a less than shining record on human rights.
More disruption and closer to home than some far off desert.
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Many people would love a successful takeover, besides that fact I'm glad you posted this my hope is the post goes viral so a certain important person in the White House is aware of situation.
What was that old saying "The definition of insanity"
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It looks as if it's all over with Erdogan back in charge, for the time being at least.
Now the questions start; was it the Russians on the US behind it, maybe it was an extremist Islamic plot within the army, why did so many turn out on to the streets in favour of an elected dictator rather than an army promising peace and equality, will Erdogan embark on a spree of retaliation or will he try to brush it under the carpet, did Merkel know that her favoured friend was facing a coup? Etc etc.
Plenty to chew over but it does seem that Turkey's application for EU membership will be put on hold for a decade or two yet.
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Welcome to the next IS dictatorship. We'll see, but so far it looks like that intolerant goon is pushing the country in that direction.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/turkish-soldier-beheaded-pro-government-8433319
Too bad the military failed (because not enough were involved and they weren't willing to do what was necessary to win)...
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In the Middle East it's never over.
With luck, this set of soldiers will be gathered back into the bosom of the military and held accountable to military law (at some future time) and not state. To do otherwise would be to sow loss of faith within the military establishment, something that I feel they wouldn't care to allow. Who knows how the thing was really organized and with what agenda; did they really want to bring down the government or give it a warning in the only way they know it would understand?
Perhaps Erdie will learn a lesson from this, and slow down his waltz with the wrong guys, keeping the religious factions out of governmental policy. I don't think newly-found freedoms are going to be easily allowed to get stolen. But then again, you never can tell, and Occam's razor isn't the only tool in the drawer.
Rob C
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Why the 2nd Amendment is so important. If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of? The last protector against tyranny.
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Hi Rob,
Thanks, I guess I understand what you mean :-)
Best regards
Erik
In the Middle East it's never over.
With luck, this set of soldiers will be gathered back into the bosom of the military and held accountable to military law (at some future time) and not state. To do otherwise would be to sow loss of faith within the military establishment, something that I feel they wouldn't care to allow. Who knows how the thing was really organized and with what agenda; did they really want to bring down the government or give it a warning in the only way they know it would understand?
Perhaps Erdie will learn a lesson from this, and slow down his waltz with the wrong guys, keeping the religious factions out of governmental policy. I don't think newly-found freedoms are going to be easily allowed to get stolen. But then again, you never can tell, and Occam's razor isn't the only tool in the drawer.
Rob C
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Why the 2nd Amendment is so important. If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of?
Hi Alan,
Not sure what you are trying to say, but it was stopped without citizens having to pick up the arms, and with surprisingly little bloodshed.
The last protector against tyranny.
Sometimes, or a nuclear device.
Perhaps Erdie will learn a lesson from this, and slow down his waltz with the wrong guys, keeping the religious factions out of governmental policy.
The so called democratic President Erdogan just fired/arrested 2700 judges. They were not pro-Erdogan enough it seems (and the risk of someone protesting against the lay-offs now is minimal) ..., just like the newspapers that had their management and reporters replaced, the politicians stripped of their political immunity, and the army top that had already been replaced by straw men.
Cheers,
Bart
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Why the 2nd Amendment is so important. If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of? The last protector against tyranny.
Yes, terrifying prospect, isn't it?
Protection against tyranny? Read something about Turkish history and come back sing¡ng a similar song. And whilst you're at it, try figuring out who the current tyrant might be, and what he's doing with that precious 'democracy'; for an easy start: think about the media people shut down and off the street and out of circulation; the distancing of secular principles from government...
Rob C
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Why the 2nd Amendment is so important. If an unarmed citizenry in Turkey can help stop the coup, think what an armed citizenry would be capable of? The last protector against tyranny.
Unfortunately, this is a coup that should have succeeded. For a very long time now the Turkish military has stood behind Ataturk's revolution against the Ottoman caliphate and Sharia law. I suspect that had the citizenry been armed the coup would have succeeded. Unfortunately, Erdogan figured this out long ago and eliminated most of the people in the military who'd have stood with Ataturk.
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Rob: I don't understand your point. It was armed military that staged the coup, not the people. Whether it's a mistake that they support Erdogan or not, enough citizens reacted against the coup plotters. As far as Americans, we're already armed to the teeth. Yet our democracy is as strong as ever. There haven't been negative effects against our government and freedom because citizens are armed. In fact, I think it's kept many erstwhile dictators even here from thinking they could gain traction. However, should something happen in the future, "an armed citizenry is the last defense against tyranny." An unarmed populace is much weaker against an out-of-control government. The first thing dictators do is take the guns away from the people to protect their power. Remember, it was armed patriots with muskets in 1776 that revolted against the most militarily powerful dictatorship in the world (England under King George III). And won.
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It's odd how often freedom-loving democracy-believing americans are in favour of military coups elsewhere.
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Rob: I don't understand your point. It was armed military that staged the coup, not the people. Whether it's a mistake that they support Erdogan or not, enough citizens reacted against the coup plotters. As far as Americans, we're already armed to the teeth. Yet our democracy is as strong as ever. There haven't been negative effects against our government and freedom because citizens are armed. In fact, I think it's kept many erstwhile dictators even here from thinking they could gain traction. However, should something happen in the future, "an armed citizenry is the last defense against tyranny." An unarmed populace is much weaker against an out-of-control government. The first thing dictators do is take the guns away from the people to protect their power. Remember, it was armed patriots with muskets in 1776 that revolted against the most militarily powerful dictatorship in the world (England under King George III). And won.
Alan,
The citizenry wasn't shooting: it was facing down the armoured vehicles - just like in that Chinese square so long ago. On the other hand, had it been waving guns, it would have been mown down and run over. The military was simply unwilling to kill its own people.
As a result, and how terribly conveniently for Erdie Boy, he has immediately had 2745 judges arrested. Isn't that so handy for him! Along with newspapers, bloggers, it's now the judiciary being put out of sght. Soon it'll be a 'democracy' without an Opposition of any sort. Were I given to bets, my money might easily be on the entire episode being constructed so as to provide the circumstances that would allow Erdie to apply the 'solutions' he had found awkward without the problems to which to attach them.
These guys were traders when the 'west' was still living in daub huts. They have vision.
And on another matter, Russ is right: if anyone imagines they are saving only the destitute from the sea, that's a naivety beyond comprehension. Someone willing to blow his own balls off isn't going to be fazed by salt water.
Rob
P.S. Come to think of it, there's hardly need to import any of these people: they already exist as home-grown time bombs. Who needs to learn how to make explosives, find detonators etc. etc. when they need nothing more than a cheap kitchen knife or the ability to drive? Anyone driven by blind hatred and/or faith can do anything to which he (and often he's a she) puts their mind to doing.
The fact that the killings end up being quite haphazard and indiscriminate, people of all types of belief (or lack of it) being killed, shows that it's the killing itself that's the prize, the ultimate buzz.
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Just a juicy rumour at the mo but there are reports of gunfire and explosions coming from within the US Incirlik airbase! If yer man Erdo is picking a fight with the US then we had better all get our tin hats on.
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It's odd how often freedom-loving democracy-believing americans are in favour of military coups elsewhere.
It's nice to live in a place where you can speak your mind without fear of disappearing, isn't it?
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It's nice to live in a place where you can speak your mind without fear of disappearing, isn't it?
Yes, which is basically what Robert suggested.
Of course, there is also something as a fake sense of security/protection. One of the last laws proposed by the next/new Prime Minister of the UK, Theresa May (in her former role), significantly restricts the protection of privacy, which raises a few eyebrows, at least in (by some dredged) Europe.
Cheers,
Bart
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Yes, which is basically what Robert suggested.
Of course, there is also something as a fake sense of security/protection. One of the last laws proposed by the next/new Prime Minister of the UK, Theresa May (in her former role), significantly restricts the protection of privacy, which raises a few eyebrows, at least in (by some dredged) Europe.
Cheers,
Bart
Aka known as freedom of social media.
I have no qualms about suggesting that much so-called social media serves no useful purpose at all.
I've reached this venerable age without any help whatsoever from FBook, Twitter and all the bloody rest of them. I would be perfectly happy to see them closed tout de suite. They are the perfect conduit for terrorism, get in the way of people having actual conversations, and fill up the ether with more radiation than I need.
It takes but one visit to any public dining area to see the effects: people sit before the table, heads bowed and deep in concentration, ignoring the other people sitting beside them. If ever one of the best opportunities for social bonding has been destroyed it's this: eating together is now eating alone in company. No wonder people are increasingly antisocial, insular and incapable of interaction or even, in many, many cases, of writing a couple of sentences that hold together and make a modicum of sense.
Freedom? What the hell has living on a cellphone screen got to do with freedom? If anything, it's the unwitting abandonment of freedom to the slavery of a robotic interface where nothing, not even your family, is any longer real.
My late wife was a very smart lady, bright in both maths and the sciences. She would never send an e-mail, nor would she text. I used to tease her about it, and all she'd say was this: "within a second of hearing the kids on the 'phone I can tell if they are really okay or just telling me that they are okay."
And when you consider the cost and turnover of these daft toys, the emotional pressure/need to keep up with the idiot next door or sitting at the next desk, you can see that the camera trade still has a lot of marketing catching up to do. In the meantime, nice to know that your cellphone can double as a bomb trigger! So reassuring, isn't it?
As for privacy: in the UK you can't even get people to accept ID cards! Here, in Spain, they are essential. They are one of the most useful devices ever invented, far more useful than your credit card! They vouch for you, open doors for you, but in the UK are, by many, seen as, and equated with fights against democracy, against human rights, against your religion or lack of it; they are dragons breathing political fire and oppression.
Instead, I think they could be made even more useful by incorporating blood-type, allergies and all sorts of known medical details that can save your life if you fall to the ground unconscious for some reason or another. But no, that will inevitably be seen as intrusion, a fight against your freedom. Oy, effin' vey; what a bunch of conspiracy theorists we are becoming - or have already become!
In short, we are abandoning reality, the concept of being useful neighbours and withdrawing ever more deeply into tiny worlds within our own minds, incapable of accepting any wider picture and without the moderating influence of experiencing much that's real at first hand. Being Europeans? What? Have to cope with something that's not English, with brands we can't find at home? Better out of it!
Our sense of 'privacy' has become distorted to mean anything but our privacy, but simply our ability to plot and/or indulge in criminality with greater ease than ever before. In the end, it's the communication opportunities for criminals that we are defending; where innocent, there is nothing to hide, is there?
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The citizenry wasn't shooting: it was facing down the armoured vehicles - just like in that Chinese square so long ago. On the other hand, had it been waving guns, it would have been mown down and run over. The military was simply unwilling to kill its own people.
Not sure of your point. China is a military dictatorship. Turkey is not. If I recall correctly, Chinese soldiers shot protestors by the hundreds. It was called the Tiananmen Square Massacre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 If the Chinese people had guns, maybe they would be able to throw out their dictators. Certainly in every dictatorship, the first thing the leaders do is take away the guns. That's why the Founder of America insisted in our Constitution that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. Your other point about where Erdogan is going I agree with. And once it happens, the unarmed people won't be able to do anything about it any more than the Venezuelans can.
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Not sure of your point. China is a military dictatorship. Turkey is not. If I recall correctly, Chinese soldiers shot protestors by the hundreds. It was called the Tiananmen Square Massacre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 If the Chinese people had guns, maybe they would be able to throw out their dictators. Certainly in every dictatorship, the first thing the leaders do is take away the guns. That's why the Founder of America insisted in our Constitution that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. Your other point about where Erdogan is going I agree with. And once it happens, the unarmed people won't be able to do anything about it any more than the Venezuelans can.
And get Donald Trump instead?
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Not sure of your point. China is a military dictatorship. Turkey is not.
"quote author=Alan Klein link=topic=111664.msg923042#msg923042 date=1468684055]
Rob: I don't understand your point. It was armed military that staged the coup, not the people."
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Yes, I know that; the point is that the military didn't shoot them simply because they were unarmed, posed no real threat, and were also their own citizens. Had they, the citizens/mob/whatever been bearing arms, shooting at tanks etc., then the only possible reply would have been that of even heavier firepower, in return, from the tanks.
That arming the citizens is some sort of guarantee against dictatorships is pure fantasy. In an actual civil war, they would't stand a chance. Dictators or not, one of the best things any leader could do for his people is take the guns away! As I've said ad nauseam but still seems beyond many heads, the sole function of a gun is to deal in death. Period. It can not be compared to accidents/killings with cars, airplanes, motorboats, motorcycles, runaway horses nor even bats or dogs with rabies: guns stand separately as single-purpose products. Effing about with statistics in vain attempts to cloud the issue might work for some, but anyone with the ability - or will - to see the truth can not avoid the reality of what a gun does, to animals or to people.
Rob
And here we go again: Baton Rouge, today. Seven policemen shot, three dead. Still find an argument for civilians with guns?
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Not sure of your point. China is a military dictatorship. Turkey is not. If I recall correctly, Chinese soldiers shot protestors by the hundreds. It was called the Tiananmen Square Massacre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 If the Chinese people had guns, maybe they would be able to throw out their dictators. Certainly in every dictatorship, the first thing the leaders do is take away the guns. That's why the Founder of America insisted in our Constitution that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. Your other point about where Erdogan is going I agree with. And once it happens, the unarmed people won't be able to do anything about it any more than the Venezuelans can.
That view of Turkey might well require revision now.
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Ask Edward Snowdon about that.
You mean the chap who chooses to live now in the bastion of freedom and democracy that is Russia?
Jeremy
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...That arming the citizens is some sort of guarantee against dictatorships is pure fantasy. In an actual civil war, they would't stand a chance. Dictators or not, one of the best things any leader could do for his people is take the guns away! As I've said ad nauseam but still seems beyond many heads, the sole function of a gun is to deal in death. Period. It can not be compared to accidents/killings with cars, airplanes, motorboats, motorcycles, runaway horses nor even bats or dogs with rabies: guns stand separately as single-purpose products. Effing about with statistics in vain attempts to cloud the issue might work for some, but anyone with the ability - or will - to see the truth can not avoid the reality of what a gun does, to animals or to people.
Rob...
Rob: It's not fantasy. The American Constitution has the 2nd Amendment just for that purpose. No other. Americans are willing so far to put up with the killings that guns do to protect themselves from future illegal governments. Foreigners should run their countries as they wish. In the meanwhile, when and if we're ready to change it, the American Constitution can be modified.
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China is not a military dictatorship.
If you want to know more about the Chinese government, read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_China)
That's a distinction without a difference. You're not reading all of the Wikipedia article you referenced. The military is run by the Communist Party that is run by it's Paramount Leader Xi Jinping. All the military leaders are in the Communist Party same as the Paramount leader. The Communist Party uses the military to defend its unitary power and enforce it's will. As stated in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_China#Paramount_Leader The legal power of the Communist Party is guaranteed by the PRC constitution and its position as the supreme political authority in the PRC is realised through its comprehensive control of the state, military, and media.[1] According to a prominent government spokesman:
We will never simply copy the system of Western countries or introduce a system of multiple parties holding office in rotation; although China’s state organs have different responsibilities, they all adhere to the line, principles and policies of the party.[2]
Paramount leader
Power is concentrated in the Paramount leader, currently Xi Jinping, who heads the three most important political and state offices: He is General Secretary of the Communist Party and of the Central Committee and Chairman of the Central Military Commission and also the President. Recently, experts have observed growing limitations to the Paramount leader's de facto control over the government.[5]
Central Military Commission (China)
The Central Military Commission exercises the command and control of the People's Liberation Army and is supervised by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress. The state CMC is nominally considered the supreme military policy-making body and its chairman, elected by the National People's Congress, is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. In reality, command and control of the PLA, however, still resides with the Central Military Commission of the Chinese Communist Party Central Committee. Currently the Chairman of the Central Military Commission is Xi Jinping and the Vice Chairmen are Fan Changlong and Xu Qiliang.
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Returning to the OP: The attempted coup, if that is indeed what it was, raises many questions about who knew what, when and about what is really going on.
Turkey is a member of NATO and a strategically vital ally of the West. The Turks have well trained, well armed and highly capable armed forces that have, for many years, worked in close liaison/co-operation with the armed forces of other NATO countries. My point being: this is not an isolated, remote, obscure or in any way insignificant country. Which makes it difficult to believe that this `coup' came out of the blue. And, if we (the West) didn't know anything about it, then what does that say about both our intelligence services and the nature of our alliance with the Turks. Alternatively, if we did know something about it, then what did we (the West) do, or try to do, to help the situation. And what do our actions or inactions tell us about our Governments, foreign policy and the alliances we depend on/trust for our security.
Some meaningful analysis (as opposed to the largely meaningless speculation that appears to be dominating media coverage at present) would be really helpful.
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Rob: It's not fantasy. The American Constitution has the 2nd Amendment just for that purpose. No other. Americans are willing so far to put up with the killings that guns do to protect themselves from future illegal governments. Foreigners should run their countries as they wish. In the meanwhile, when and if we're ready to change it, the American Constitution can be modified.
Alan, you have to consider context, relativity and era.
A few blunderbusses and squirrel guns don't match up with the reality of military-grade weaponry that can, in some states, be legally paraded down the street as you go shopping.
If that doesn't strike you, in the 21st Century, as even slightly crazy, then nothing ever will.
Rob C
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Alan, you have to consider context, relativity and era.
A few blunderbusses and squirrel guns don't match up with the reality of military-grade weaponry that can, in some states, be legally paraded down the street as you go shopping.
If that doesn't strike you, in the 21st Century, as even slightly crazy, then nothing ever will.
Rob C
I quite agree Rob. And to make it worse, should there ever be an anti-government breakdown of law and order in the USA and the population decides to take up arms, you can be fairly certain that there would be a number of factions with differing agendas and it would end being a complete disaster.
Jim
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You mean like the American Civil War of 1861-1865? 600,000 Americans died. Would it not have happened if private weapons were not available?
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You mean like the American Civil War of 1861-1865? 600,000 Americans died. Would it not have happened if private weapons were not available?
You seem to be a republican revolutionary? Guns are your only answer. Do you own one,or more than one? :(
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Returning to the OP: The attempted coup, if that is indeed what it was, raises many questions about who knew what, when and about what is really going on.
Turkey is a member of NATO and a strategically vital ally of the West. The Turks have well trained, well armed and highly capable armed forces that have, for many years, worked in close liaison/co-operation with the armed forces of other NATO countries. My point being: this is not an isolated, remote, obscure or in any way insignificant country. Which makes it difficult to believe that this `coup' came out of the blue. And, if we (the West) didn't know anything about it, then what does that say about both our intelligence services and the nature of our alliance with the Turks. Alternatively, if we did know something about it, then what did we (the West) do, or try to do, to help the situation. And what do our actions or inactions tell us about our Governments, foreign policy and the alliances we depend on/trust for our security.
Some meaningful analysis (as opposed to the largely meaningless speculation that appears to be dominating media coverage at present) would be really helpful.
Excellent questions and I have seen it noted several times that the US appeared somewhat casual about the coup which proves nothing but it does leave any denial of their involvement open to doubt. Noting that Turkey has now turned itself into an elected dictatorship with the dismissal of the judiciary and the arrest of journalists it must also be asked if they have any future role in NATO, especially if the reports are true that they cut the power supplies to US bases. I appreciate that the bases are quite capable of providing their own electricity but that's not the point.
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Excellent questions and I have seen it noted several times that the US appeared somewhat casual about the coup which proves nothing but it does leave any denial of their involvement open to doubt. Noting that Turkey has now turned itself into an elected dictatorship with the dismissal of the judiciary and the arrest of journalists it must also be asked if they have any future role in NATO, especially if the reports are true that they cut the power supplies to US bases. I appreciate that the bases are quite capable of providing their own electricity but that's not the point.
One of the strange things about this supposed coup, is that (according to experts, like Edward Luttwak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Luttwak)) is was so poorly executed.
However, it did provide Erdogan with a lot of support to remove critical opposition:
So far:
103 generals and admirals arrested,
2,389 soldiers detained,
2,745 judges and prosecutors detained,
8,777 Interior Ministry officials suspended,
just like he 'purged' the News and press agencies before, and stripped members of parliament from their political immunity. And given the speed at which this is done, the lists were apparently ready to use.
The military are apparently being prosecuted by civil judges, not a military court.
In addition, the people have been mobilized to report anyone who doesn't support his agenda or is critical of the President. Embassies in foreign countries already issued similar instructions to the Turks living in those countries a month or so earlier.
Lot's of questions will remain unanswered.
Cheers,
Bart
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You seem to be a republican revolutionary? Guns are your only answer. Do you own one,or more than one? :(
I'm not a revolutionary. I believe in the Constitution and when I was in the USAF I swore to uphold and support it as do every elected and appointed governmental official and member of the US military. And no, I don't own a gun and never have. But I support other Americans' rights to own and bear them and would do the same if push came to shove.
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Erdogan is like the Islamist Egyptian Morsi. He's going to be a problem for Turks, Americans, NATO and others.
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Hi,
On that issue we agree. The good thing that as long there is a democracy he can loose next election. In the Morsi case I would say there was doubt if there would be another election.
There are a few problems with democracy, though:
- The wrong man/group may win. Both Morsi and Erdogan may belong that group. There was also a guy called Adolf in Germany…
- What are the alternatives. If you need to choose between a scoundrel and a failure?
:-( Argh... :-(
Erik
Erdogan is like the Islamist Egyptian Morsi. He's going to be a problem for Turks, Americans, NATO and others.
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Noting that Turkey has now turned itself into an elected dictatorship with the dismissal of the judiciary and the arrest of journalists it must also be asked if they have any future role in NATO
did NATO ever suspend Turkey before (with several military coups in the history) ?
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From the news:
"Shouts of “Allahu Akbar” and sermons blaring from speakers continue to echo throughout the cosmopolitan districts of Istanbul in the wake of Friday’s failed military coup, creating a “surreal” scene and stoking fears a nation that remained proudly secular for the last century could be hurtling down the path to full-blown Islamic rule."
Hide your Marlboro's, vodka and girly mags. No more 'fashion' photography guys. Quit it. Ladies...please proceed to the local burka-mart and get yourself a nice black cover-up.
Waiting for someone who enjoys liberty to explain why it's good that the wanna-be dictator/religious leader wasn't taken out during the half-hearted coup attempt. You know, those guys should have fought for the coup as if their life depended on it...because it probably does. One poor soul already lost his head on the bridge. All the photos of the arrested appear as if they've 'accidentally' fallen down on their face a few times on the way to jail.
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... No more 'fashion' photography guys. Quit it. Ladies...please proceed to the local burka-mart and get yourself a nice black cover-up...
They have a fine example to follow, the new Muslim mayor of London, who just banned photographs in bikinis ;)
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They have a fine example to follow, the new Muslim mayor of London, who just banned photographs in bikinis ;)
Banned, for the photographers, or the models?
Cheers,
Bart
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did NATO ever suspend Turkey before (with several military coups in the history) ?
Things, they might be a'changin
Turkey coup could threaten country's Nato membership, suggests John Kerry
State Department says Nato is monitoring how the Turkish government responds to the failed coup. Members of the alliance are required to 'uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-could-threaten-countrys-nato-membership-john-kerry-warns-a7142491.html
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As the events develop, it more and more looks like another Reichstag fire.
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Banned, for the photographers, or the models?
Cheers,
Bart
The Muslim mayor of London is worried about how body shaming ads affect young women.
http://www.snopes.com/londons-mayor-bans-sexy-images/
The fact that he is Muslim plays out nicely for those who want to misconstrue this and is otherwise irrelevant.
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As the events develop, it more and more looks like another Reichstag fire.
Another train of thought that is emerging is that the coup was planned for later but had to be bought forward due to a fear of the plot being betrayed, this would account for it appearing to go off at half cock.
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Another train of thought that is emerging is that the coup was planned for later but had to be bought forward due to a fear of the plot being betrayed, this would account for it appearing to go off at half cock.
Turkish military is said to be highly capable, not to mention rather experienced in coups and running the country. It is then hard to believe they would stage such a half-ass attempt.
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Things, they might be a'changin
Turkey coup could threaten country's Nato membership, suggests John Kerry
State Department says Nato is monitoring how the Turkish government responds to the failed coup. Members of the alliance are required to 'uphold democracy, including tolerating diversity'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-could-threaten-countrys-nato-membership-john-kerry-warns-a7142491.html
There has been a slow but steady march toward a caliphate in Turkey led by Erdogan. He is amassing power to himself and a few cronies. Like far too many of the emerging countries cronyism is rampant.
The mid level, it seems, was fed up with watching their democracy decay into an Islamic State. Does anyone really think that there is not a reason why Erdogan is more concerned with Assad than he is with ISIS. Why else would he continually allow ISIS and other radical groups to operate in Turkey unless they were in any way from a Kurdish background.
Turkey of today is a divided country. A great number of Turks long for the liberal society that Ataturk brought about and hoped to perpetuate in the Constitution. However after 10 years in power, Erdogan is slowing growing a younger set of young people full of Islamic fervor who will not keep with the tolerant society that once was. Erdogan does not protect Christian sects and is bent on the destruction of all Kurdish culture while continuing to refuse to accept the Armenian Genocice.
The fact that we lavish money and support on the current Turkish Government hoping they will play nice is just wrong headed. Merkel and the rest of the Eurozone are deluding themselves. Obama is too far to the left to even dream of a proper response.
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Turkish military is said to be highly capable, not to mention rather experienced in coups and running the country. It is then hard to believe they would stage such a half-ass attempt.
I believe that he had already had a good purge of the generals that he considered disloyal so the expertise may not have been there.
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The older I get the more I tend to believe that this will all end up with a world divided into about three fairly distinct sections: the West, possibly including Russia; the Middle East with parts of Africa; Eastern Asia and the Pacific.
Oil will be relegated to worthlessness - I'm sure it's already long been scientifically possible - and strict borders will exist, with routine deportations being the norm if people living in the 'wrong' zone start to play games.
In the end, it seems ethnic/religious divides are proving to be too basic and powerful to permit true coexistence in any kind of workable harmony. The astonishing thing is that anyone was ever naive enough to think otherwise.
Rob C
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The older I get the more I tend to believe that this will all end up with a world divided into about three fairly distinct sections: the West, possibly including Russia; the Middle East with parts of Africa; Eastern Asia and the Pacific.
Oil will be relegated to worthlessness - I'm sure it's already long been scientifically possible - and strict borders will exist, with routine deportations being the norm if people living in the 'wrong' zone start to play games.
In the end, it seems thnic/religious divides are proving to be too basic and powerful to permit true coexistence in any kind of workable harmony. The astonishing thing is that anyone was ever naive enough to think otherwise.
Rob C
That Utopian society we see on Star Trek seems really nice and I'd love to have that, but come on...we're human beings and unfortunately, human beings always seem to have a group that wants to take advantage of others and have power over them in some way. Think about it...why do we even need police or a military? If people would just behave themselves and do the right thing, there would never be a need for guns and armies. The only reason I support a strong military right now is because I know for a fact other people would try to enforce their religious or political beliefs on me/us if we didn't have a way to defend ourselves and our freedom to live as we wish. Everyone deserves to live in peace and live the lifestyle they enjoy (as long as it's not oppressing other people).
Personally, I think it's time to get VERY serious about enforcing civility and rule or law. I'm not talking about another episode of Star Trek or Stargate SG-1 where the crew comes across what seems like a great society but then they realize the regime in charge is ruthlessly oppressive and disallows any dissent. No, I'm talking about putting an end to violence completely and an end to individuals becoming dictators and forcing their views and lifestyle on others.
What I'd rather see is an absolute intolerance of violence and other groups forcing their lifestyle/religion on other people. Basically, we all get to live in peace AND live as we desire to live...and if someone comes along and wants to ruin it for the rest of us because they're intolerant of opposing views or just plain violent, then that person will disappear from society. Forced peace and tranquility? I don't know what you'd call it, but I think it would be fair and no one would have the right to oppress anyone else or ruin someone else's life. My view may seem a little harsh, but it's fair and the only people I can see that would be opposed to it is those that would want to force their lifestyle or religion on others. Why would anyone be opposed to being able to live as you wish and never having to be afraid of violence (rape, murder, assault, etc).
Anyway, we're human so I don't see an end to the nonsense that's going on every day in our communities around the world.
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That Utopian society we see on Star Trek seems really nice and I'd love to have that, but come on...we're human beings and unfortunately, human beings always seem to have a group that wants to take advantage of others and have power over them in some way. Think about it...why do we even need police or a military? If people would just behave themselves and do the right thing, there would never be a need for guns and armies. The only reason I support a strong military right now is because I know for a fact other people would try to enforce their religious or political beliefs on me/us if we didn't have a way to defend ourselves and our freedom to live as we wish. Everyone deserves to live in peace and live the lifestyle they enjoy (as long as it's not oppressing other people).
Personally, I think it's time to get VERY serious about enforcing civility and rule or law. I'm not talking about another episode of Star Trek or Stargate SG-1 where the crew comes across what seems like a great society but then they realize the regime in charge is ruthlessly oppressive and disallows any dissent. No, I'm talking about putting an end to violence completely and an end to individuals becoming dictators and forcing their views and lifestyle on others.
What I'd rather see is an absolute intolerance of violence and other groups forcing their lifestyle/religion on other people. Basically, we all get to live in peace AND live as we desire to live...and if someone comes along and wants to ruin it for the rest of us because they're intolerant of opposing views or just plain violent, then that person will disappear from society. Forced peace and tranquility? I don't know what you'd call it, but I think it would be fair and no one would have the right to oppress anyone else or ruin someone else's life. My view may seem a little harsh, but it's fair and the only people I can see that would be opposed to it is those that would want to force their lifestyle or religion on others. Why would anyone be opposed to being able to live as you wish and never having to be afraid of violence (rape, murder, assault, etc).
Anyway, we're human so I don't see an end to the nonsense that's going on every day in our communities around the world.
Delusional.
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Delusional.
You're welcome to live with the people that do nothing but bring misery to society if you want to. I'd rather not.
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You're welcome to live with the people that do nothing but bring misery to society if you want to. I'd rather not.
You are advocating the use of extreme violence in order to bring peace? It doesn't work. At the moment Turkey is using extreme violence against it's citizens in order to bring peace. Will it work?
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You are advocating the use of extreme violence in order to bring peace? It doesn't work. At the moment Turkey is using extreme violence against it's citizens in order to bring peace. Will it work?
No they aren't. They're using violence to oppress free will/personal freedom and an opposing view.
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You are advocating the use of extreme violence in order to bring peace? It doesn't work. ...
Oh, yes it does. Just ask Japan.
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.
I was going to say the same thing. As much as a nice orderly society without violence sounds, this business of eliminating disruptors is a slippery slope at best. Makes me think of Ray Bradbury stories.
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Anyway, I realize what I said it just fantasy, but my point is....wouldn't it be nice to not have to live with people ruin our lives? Humans are flawed and we're always going to have bad apples in the bunch. In reality, most all of us agree much more than we disagree. There's simply a disagreement on how to deal with people that refuse to behave and do their fair share. Fair share, meaning, be a nice person and at least try to be productive. If you can't even try to be productive, at least don't go out and ruin someone else's life.
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.
And therein the elephantine flaw: it should be rephrased as "what did it do for the people of Iraq and Libya?"
Just who the eff do we think we are telling other lands how to run themselves? In the end, one can't honestly blame some of them for seeing us as the villains of the piece. Exporting our ideas of societal and religious perfection is every bit as bad at the opposite coming our way. Does anyone imagine Christian missionaries were instantly beloved anywhere? Did the destruction of native innocence really achieve a lot for said natives? Apart from giving them VD and all sorts of other illnesses they never had before.
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.
True, but that's meddling in other countries' affairs, different story. Neither country was a source of massive, world-wide terrorism, nor attacking the U.S.
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The Muslim mayor of London is worried about how body shaming ads affect young women.
http://www.snopes.com/londons-mayor-bans-sexy-images/
The fact that he is Muslim plays out nicely for those who want to misconstrue this and is otherwise irrelevant.
Unless, of course, you happoen to be an advertising photographer or a model. But we don't count when it comes to the values of the alien cultures.
Why do you think there's so much hatred in Germany and France over the Islamification of their countries? First reason, before you even touch on religious ideology, is the perception of the new reality which is that the indigenous people are having their lives, social mores and ways altered to suit the ways of newcomers. Uh uh. That ain't gonna fly long-term unless things go very wrong indeed. Which in a weak society they well might.
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There are people on the left and on the right who think they have all the answers for what makes the best society. In America we have a Constitution that protects everyone's personal beliefs and actions (within certain limits) even when the majority or the government wants to enforce their will on the rest of us. Judges must be impeached. They cannot be removed and replaced with loyalists by executive fiat as is happening in Turkey. While the President is Commander-in-chief, generals and admirals are promoted by Congress so hopefully the President can't pack the army with his guys. No one swears allegiance to a party or an individual but rather to protect the Constitution.
Turkey's constitution is weak. That's why they will devolve into a autocratic society with one man rule. If America keeps re-interpreting our Constitution to fit current political and social beliefs, we could wind up like Turkey.
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Look what getting rid of Sadam Hussain and Khadaffi have gotten us.
Probably many people agree that Iraq/Libya was a mistake, hindsight being 20/20. Whether or not the populations in those countries deserved a better life/better leaders is another story, but obviously things are a mess there now. One could argue that those people had a great opportunity to turn everything around and make a great country for themselves after the war. They really could have, were it not for all their silly tribal feuds and religious bickering between the different groups. Having said that, hat's off to the Germans for their big turn around. They took the opportunity to make their lives/country better after their tyrannical leader. Same for Japan. Why didn't the Iraqi's take advantage of the opportunity they had? They certainly had the money and military backing to do it after the war, yet, they squandered it and insisted on returning to fighting among themselves. Either way, thanks for nothing. Big mistake to ever get involved. Such a huge waste of lives, effort and money.
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The American military stayed in Germany and Japan to foster democracy. Obama pulled out of Iraq.
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BBC:
More than 15,000 education staff in Turkey have been suspended after last week's failed coup, as a purge of state officials widens still further.
The army, judiciary, security and civil service have all been targeted following Friday's coup attempt:
- 6,000 military personnel have been arrested, with more than two dozen generals awaiting trial
- 9,000 police officers have been sacked
- 3,000 judges have been suspended
More than 250 staff in Mr Yildirim's office have been removed
Turkey's media regulation body on Tuesday also revoked the licenses of 24 radio and TV channels accused to have links to Mr Gulen.
The ability to identify the "enemies" of the government so quickly and on such a wide scale might indicate prior preparations for this, if not outright staging. In any case, one giant step toward a caliphate.
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Probably many people agree that Iraq/Libya was a mistake, hindsight being 20/20. Whether or not the populations in those countries deserved a better life/better leaders is another story, but obviously things are a mess there now. One could argue that those people had a great opportunity to turn everything around and make a great country for themselves after the war. They really could have, were it not for all their silly tribal feuds and religious bickering between the different groups. Having said that, hat's off to the Germans for their big turn around. They took the opportunity to make their lives/country better after their tyrannical leader. Same for Japan. Why didn't the Iraqi's take advantage of the opportunity they had? They certainly had the money and military backing to do it after the war, yet, they squandered it and insisted on returning to fighting among themselves. Either way, thanks for nothing. Big mistake to ever get involved. Such a huge waste of lives, effort and money.
Because you are applying Western ideals as the measure.
Religion that's so sytemic and overarching doesn't work by the same rules as you or I probably understand. We have freedom for and also from religion; others do not share or necessarily seek that.
You simply can't export alien ideas and expect others to welcome them. Why should they? Those are foreign ideas being forced upon existing ways of life, just like the poster event in London Underground.
We may or may not approve of sharia etc, but it isn't our business unless there are attempts to enforce it in/on our countries.
Rob
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We may or may not approve of sharia etc, but it isn't our business unless there are attempts to enforce it in/on our countries.
Rob
Unfortunately, the UK already has some of this in place. I haven't followed this story since it's not in my country, but a quick search turns up several bad stories about this practice in the UK. It was probably allowed so as to not seem 'intolerant'.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/624457/Islamic-Sharia-Council-Machteld-Zee-Islam
News flash. Keep your clothes on, ladies. The sharia enforcer was apparently watching and disapproved:
http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/19/mother-and-three-daughters-stabbed-in-french-resort-for-being-scantily-dressed-6016072/
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Unfortunately, the UK already has some of this in place.
Not quite. It has no legal foundation, it's a religious council. And in the UK there is a formal separation of powers, the typical division of branches is into a legislature, an executive, and a judiciary.
News flash. Keep your clothes on, ladies. The sharia enforcer was apparently watching and disapproved:
http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/19/mother-and-three-daughters-stabbed-in-french-resort-for-being-scantily-dressed-6016072/
Yes, intolerant religious fanatics (of any faith) are always bad news.
Cheers,
Bart
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BBC:
The ability to identify the "enemies" of the government so quickly and on such a wide scale might indicate prior preparations for this, if not outright staging. In any case, one giant step toward a caliphate.
On the other hand he might simply have been paranoid and kept the list in case of such an eventuality. As you say, Turkey has a history of coups so doubt he took precautions and had the necessary response ready to roll out.
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... Yes, intolerant religious fanatics (of any faith) are always bad news.
But only one faith currently calls for fanatics (or not) to act on a massive, world-wide scale.
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Many faiths still proselytize and try to convert others. It's the convert or death that's the issue.
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Many faiths still proselytize and try to convert others. It's the convert or death that's the issue.
Speaking about religious conversion, I opt for the fourth most popular religion in the world:
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Unfortunately, the UK already has some of this in place. I haven't followed this story since it's not in my country, but a quick search turns up several bad stories about this practice in the UK. It was probably allowed so as to not seem 'intolerant'.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/624457/Islamic-Sharia-Council-Machteld-Zee-Islam
News flash. Keep your clothes on, ladies. The sharia enforcer was apparently watching and disapproved:
http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/19/mother-and-three-daughters-stabbed-in-french-resort-for-being-scantily-dressed-6016072/
FGM is also one of the delights imported into Britain. We should be so grateful for multiculturalism!
Rob
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Other news from that part of the world. This is just disgusting. Those pigs are absolutely worthless animals. Please stop giving these 'Rebels' money. Anyway, I have an 11 year old son and I can't imagine the terror that boy felt before he died. These pigs should be exterminated. Period. :-(
Syria conflict: Rebels 'filmed beheading boy' in Aleppo (suspected to be around 10 years old).
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36835678
Edit: I think I'll stop posting in the Coffee Corner area. I'm in a better mood when not thinking about current events and it's especially not good (for me) to mix my photography web sites with current events discussion. I'd much rather focus on photography when I visit photography sites.
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Not quite. It has no legal foundation, it's a religious council. And in the UK there is a formal separation of powers, the typical division of branches is into a legislature, an executive, and a judiciary.
The separation in the UK isn't bad, but the executive is drawn from the legislature. Until Blair started fiddling, the very senior judiciary also were made members of the upper chamber, whose speaker was the head of the judiciary. It all worked pretty well (and pragmatism has been the basis of the UK constitution for a very long time) but he was only a semi-educated lawyer who thought the creation of a defined supreme court would aid separation.
As far as I understand it, Montesquieu's tripartite system is rather better implemented in America than over here.
Jeremy
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The American military stayed in Germany and Japan to foster democracy. Obama pulled out of Iraq.
but I don't recall neither germans nor japanese actually fighting after the defeat ;D ... once they were ordered to surrender they did as they told and pulled the pants down... a totally different mentality vs some other countries/societies
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but I don't recall neither germans nor japanese actually fighting after the defeat ;D ... once they were ordered to surrender they did as they told and pulled the pants down... a totally different mentality vs some other countries/societies
Right, and the difference is religion taken to extremes, where there is no freedom for religion as well as from it, only a compulsory mandate to comply or die. We are fortunate, but had better be careful we don't let it all slip right through our fingers. There are those always trying, bit by little bit, to do just that: remove choice and introduce compulsion. Done slowly, the majority never notices a thing.
Rob
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but I don't recall neither germans nor japanese actually fighting after the defeat ;D ... once they were ordered to surrender they did as they told and pulled the pants down... a totally different mentality vs some other countries/societies
Of course defeat may be defined as the inability to fight any further, so it is therefore impossible to fight after defeat!
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A picture is worth a thousand words:
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Of course defeat may be defined as the inability to fight any further, so it is therefore impossible to fight after defeat!
define as you wish - the hard fact is, they didn't (we don't count few Japanese who simply did not hear the order - I am talking about the "mainland") and so occupation forces could stay unmolested...
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but I don't recall neither germans nor japanese actually fighting after the defeat ;D ... once they were ordered to surrender they did as they told and pulled the pants down... a totally different mentality vs some other countries/societies
Good point. Germany and Japan are fairly homogenous peoples unlike Iraq's. Of course there was East Germany and West Germany during the cold war but it was really the Soviets against the West. Also Germany and Japan were truly defeated with major destruction throughout. We don't fight wars that way anymore. Certainly Iraq was hardly destroyed the way things were in the defeated countries after WWII.
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A picture is worth a thousand words:
This is so sad...
Sometimes, when sh!t happens, I use to say, "Well, whatever happens, it's the way of progress for you..." And then instantly recall that Middle Ages proved me wrong many times over. A lost millennium is not a "delay" by any means; it's a true reversal.
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define as you wish - the hard fact is, they didn't (we don't count few Japanese who simply did not hear the order - I am talking about the "mainland") and so occupation forces could stay unmolested...
The German and Japanese forces were completely crushed, they had nothing left to fight with because they had carried on to the bitter end. Both wanted total war and both suffered total defeat hence it wasn't a question of whether they wanted to molest the occupying forces or not, they simply were not able to do so.
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The German and Japanese forces were completely crushed, they had nothing left to fight with because they had carried on to the bitter end. Both wanted total war and both suffered total defeat hence it wasn't a question of whether they wanted to molest the occupying forces or not, they simply were not able to do so.
It is not a regular army that is fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan now, but guerilla fighters, so, technically, both Japanese and German population could have continued to "molest" the occupying force, just like French Resistance did to Germans. So it is not that. The European war was never perceived as a war of religions or civilizations either. Actually, in WWI fighting would even stop for Christmas.
In the middle east, on the other hand, it is the religious and ideological extremism and medieval mentality that is currently fighting.
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Actually that's not entirely correct. ISIS occupies and holds territory including cities that they defend. Their government runs the civil affairs in these areas as well. They also fight like people use to fight including killing the men and reorienting the women and children to their way of life. I doubt if there are "molesting" forces within their ranks.
The West has to get away from the idea that this is a religious war. This is, at least with ISIS, a territorial war and we should treat it as such. They have begun to create a territorial caliphate, similar to the Ottoman Empire, just smaller. Their attacks in lands like America and France are their way of attacking their enemy. They don't have long range bombers and fighter aircraft as we do. This is not terror or a criminal action on their part but rather----war! Until we understand that, we won't do the right thing to defeat them.
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Interesting how Turkey has vanished off the news.
Rob
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Interesting how Turkey has vanished off the news.
Rob
Not everybody is ignoring it -
Amnesty International says it has ‘credible evidence’ Turkish police are holding detainees, denying them food, water and medical treatment and in the worst cases some have been subjected to severe beatings and torture
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thousands-turkey-coup-prisoners-raped-8485304
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Not everybody is ignoring it -
Amnesty International says it has ‘credible evidence’ Turkish police are holding detainees, denying them food, water and medical treatment and in the worst cases some have been subjected to severe beatings and torture
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thousands-turkey-coup-prisoners-raped-8485304
Worth bearing in mind that the EU was preparing to welcome Turkey on board, I should imagine their application has been quietly filed under the carpet for the time being.
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Worth bearing in mind that the EU was preparing to welcome Turkey on board, I should imagine their application has been quietly filed under the carpet for the time being.
Given that Turkey has been an associated member since 1963, it is worth taking a look at the photo I posted earlier, post #80. Turkey in the sixties is definitely not the same Turkey 50 years later, and not for the better.
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Given that Turkey has been an associated member since 1963, it is worth taking a look at the photo I posted earlier, post #80. Turkey in the sixties is definitely not the same Turkey 50 years later, and not for the better.
Turkey has been all sorts over the centuries, where east meets west, Europe meets Asia, there is unlikely to be long lasting stability unfortunately.
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The German and Japanese forces were completely crushed, they had nothing left to fight
and with what for example Sunnis fought after the Iraqi army was completely crushed ? you don't need tanks to fight - small arms, bullets and explosives were in more than sufficient supply :-)... it is just they (Germans/Japanese) did not have any will & determination whatsoever even to try, even probably just once... I mean - do u recall or can find a single incident say in 1946 of attacks against occupying forces in Germany or Japan ? try to google.
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and with what for example Sunnis fought after the Iraqi army was completely crushed ? you don't need tanks to fight - small arms, bullets and explosives were in more than sufficient supply :-)... it is just they (Germans/Japanese) did not have any will & determination whatsoever even to try, even probably just once... I mean - do u recall or can find a single incident say in 1946 of attacks against occupying forces in Germany or Japan ? try to google.
May I suggest -
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/apr/24/exorcising-hitler-germany-frederick-taylor
It's a good read and lays bare the POW camps that German soldiers were kept in for the first winter of defeat and explains how the country was slowly returned to civilian government and so on. I certainly had a better understanding of the aftermath of the war in Europe after reading it, you might to.
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Well here is something new, Erdogan is now considered a sultan by his fans!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d81_1469395837#G0Fsrxm7ExBW6t6k.99
There aren't many of those around and the one over in Brunei is not setting a particularly reassuring example -
the Sultan of Brunei, recently announced the implementation of Sharia law in his tiny South Asian nation.
Under Sharia law, the following is considered criminal behavior, punishable by fines, jail, amputation of limbs, public flogging or death by stoning: absence from Friday prayer services; becoming pregnant out of wedlock; wearing indecent clothing, and for women, refusal to wear a hijab; employing a non-Muslim baby sitter; the use of the word “Allah” by Christians and the discussion of faith by any non-Muslims; publicly eating or drinking during Ramadan; theft; homosexuality; and adultery.
http://nypost.com/2014/05/10/inside-the-wacky-sex-obsessed-world-of-brunei/