Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Joe Towner on July 09, 2016, 09:21:23 pm
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So since we're doing a thread per, I'll start one just for folks whom have actually touched / used / tested one.
Had a great first experience with the new camera today. The size, weight (lack there of), and a few of the features alone make it a great addition to any current Hasselblad H shooter. There were two bodies 'F' and #0041 both running beta 1.4 firmware, with the two lenses. There was no HC/HCD adapter on hand, and while it exists, I'd like to stress how it should be as solid as the camera feels - as in a single milled piece of metal, as lenses like the HC 50-110mm has no tripod foot, and we're looking at the adapter to take that weight. First time I heard a price for the HC adapter - $350 - so yea, um, no question, plus Hasselblad folks admitted there are a lot of folks pushing for a V adapter (it's worth ~$800 in my opinion).
The big issue for me is a lack of a cable release. Say all you want about an app, but when wifi isn't happy, or I've got it on a Gigapan, panarama or motion rig, I need that port. See the attached photo of what's behind the doors, evidently the mic/monitor ports may be wired for it, but it's a firmware thing. That's the only reason they don't have a deposit from me. I love the battery setup, and really it needs to set it up with an Anton Bauer style plug for longer shoots. I can put in 2x 512gb SD cards, so how long would it take to fill those up?
Tried the Nikon TTL with a SB-5000 flash - it didn't work, but none of us really know how to work a Nikon speedlight. It was the first time the Hasselblad reps had a flash on the body and I didn't get a change to snag a pic. I really want TTL to work like it's supposed to - an X1D with a few lenses and a Profoto B2 kit, bring it on.
In a perfect world the X1D would have the same ports on the H6 backs, but the space isn't there. Sync in & sync out would be amazing, I could see this being used with a Cambo Actus with a new rear plate.
I need the cable release Hasselblad, please, pretty please????
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A few more shots, plus the ports on the H6 back (the lower door is the USB-C port).
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I really liked the idea of this camera but can't see it being usable on an Actus or Universalis. The lack of a built in shutter pretty much kills that application.
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I really liked the idea of this camera but can't see it being usable on an Actus or Universalis. The lack of a built in shutter pretty much kills that application.
Unless if one of the makers of adapters comes up with making the interface of other leaf shutter lenses compatible to the camera... isn't it Chris?
I mean if there will be an adapter of (say) Rollei 6xxx/HY-6 lenses that makes them usable on the X1D, then one can draw cables (or take apart an extention ring) and have the camera interface communicate with the lens on a tech camera... It has happened to much extend with Sony α7 and so many different lenses of other makers that have electronic aperture control have become compatible to the Sony only after few years from its release... I don't see why it won't happen with the X1D for both the aperture and leaf shutter of other MF lenses that have wider image circle...
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Theo, while I could see that happening (although I don't think it's highly likely) I expect that would be a straight mount adapter like the Metabones, not something that would work in conjunction with a view camera. I'd love to be wrong, though.
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Why would the camera be any different than using a V/H/M mount back on a view camera? It's a known flange distance, with a sturdy mount, and Hass is going through the trouble of creating a lens lineup around 33x44 so I'd put cash on Sony coming out with a higher MP 33x44 chip in the 12-18 months (if not sooner). Yes, it could be done with a A7r, but why would I want that body?
If I could pick a lens lineup to use, maybe the GX680? Huge working distance, lots of glass options that are pretty cheap and designed for movements. i mean, Fuji knows the protocol used on the HC/HCD lenses, and could in theory build a camera that allows a rotating camera mounted, with bellows for movement that takes the GX680 glass. Screw pixel shift, move the entire camera assembly to cover the 60mmx80mm area.
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The camera could be used on any Arca or Cambo as long as the lens is mounted in a copal shutter.
Victor
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Would you not also need some form of wakeup mode, as on a Phase back, or a zero latency type setting? Not sure if the X1D has any of that in the design?
Paul C
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Yeah, I believe you're right, Paul. However, I understand that the CFV-50c works on a 501cm with no wakeup cable so...?
Still, that little 'Blad is really damn cute.
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The big issue for me is a lack of a cable release. . . . In a perfect world the X1D would have the same ports on the H6 backs, but the space isn't there. Sync in & sync out would be amazing, I could see this being used with a Cambo Actus with a new rear plate.
I need the cable release Hasselblad, please, pretty please????
Could the USB-C port offer a way to add a cable release and maybe other wish-list items via accessories and firmware upgrades? The bandwidth, speed and power handling of that port and the latest USB protocol is quite impressive.
Anyway, thanks for the report!
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Would you not also need some form of wakeup mode, as on a Phase back, or a zero latency type setting? Not sure if the X1D has any of that in the design?
Paul C
Yes...... but that could be done with a PC adapter at the hot shoe. I'm assuming that the camera would have some sort of wake up capability that could be triggered from the hot shoe. Won't work without that.
Victor
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Yeah, I believe you're right, Paul. However, I understand that the CFV-50c works on a 501cm with no wakeup cable so...?
Still, that little 'Blad is really damn cute.
I believe the back was triggered by the same mechanism that sets the film back to show an exposed frame.
Victor
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Yeah, I believe you're right, Paul. However, I understand that the CFV-50c works on a 501cm with no wakeup cable so...?
Still, that little 'Blad is really damn cute.
The CFV backs enjoy a mechanical coupling with the old blackout slide interlock.
Edmund
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Could the USB-C port offer a way to add a cable release and maybe other wish-list items via accessories and firmware upgrades? The bandwidth, speed and power handling of that port and the latest USB protocol is quite impressive.
A USB-C implementation would be horribly complex with too many parts and would be the most expensive cable releases on the market. I prefer the E3 2.5mm style, though they'd have to do a 3.5mm style to reuse the mic/headphone plug.
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Theo, while I could see that happening (although I don't think it's highly likely) I expect that would be a straight mount adapter like the Metabones, not something that would work in conjunction with a view camera. I'd love to be wrong, though.
Even if it is a straight mount adapter Chris, it then is easy to have the interface on a view camera... All you have to do is use two extention rings, one for the dedicated lenses of the camera and another for the lens that the adapter makes compatible and then make and extension chord by using the three in series...
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Integrate a shutter within the adapter.
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I really liked the idea of this camera but can't see it being usable on an Actus or Universalis. The lack of a built in shutter pretty much kills that application.
If this Blad had built in shutters, I would be rethinking my whole system!
On the bright side though, hopefully Hassy really is reading all of these comments, along with P1, and will release v2 with shutters built in. Also, it does seem that mirrorless will be pushing back illuminated sensors with better acute angle response then our current sensors, making for compatibility with fully systemic lenses a possibility again.
If both of these are the case with v2, or if P1 decided to jump on board, I would buy one and have a custom adapter made for my RM3Di in a second.
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If both of these are the case with v2, or if P1 decided to jump on board, I would buy one and have a custom adapter made for my RM3Di in a second.
it would be handy to have the camera body work as a back on the Arca.
would the extra flange distance limit the lens choices? Seems my 40 and 28 both need to get closer than the extra 18mm flange distance would allow.
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it would be handy to have the camera body work as a back on the Arca.
would the extra flange distance limit the lens choices? Seems my 40 and 28 both need to get closer than the extra 18mm flange distance would allow.
I am assuming that I would need to have custom recessed lens boards made too!
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I am pretty shure Hasselblad doesn't have too much interest in allowing the X1d to be used like a digital back, otherwise they would have stated it and they would cannibalise their back sales
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I am pretty shure Hasselblad doesn't have too much interest in allowing the X1d to be used like a digital back, otherwise they would have stated it and they would cannibalise their back sales
Thank you. I was looking forward to a thread from people who actually use the camera.
The purpose of this camera is a portable mirrorless medium format camera. It is not made for going on a view camera. There are already most of the existing modular medium format cameras to do that without adding any flange distance. The H series is better than most for it. The X1D is made to go into a backpack (and I want one for that reason). My backpack does not include a view camera and a laptop.
Why would any premium camera manufacturer make a facility to attach lesser quality lenses directly to the camera?
Marketing wise it only makes sense for lesser quality camera manufacturers to allow third party lenses to improve their lesser quality cameras.
It will never happen to a Hasselblad.
If you want a focal plane shutter then probably don't buy this camera. It won't have one.
If my aunty had balls she would be my uncle.
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I am pretty shure Hasselblad doesn't have too much interest in allowing the X1d to be used like a digital back, otherwise they would have stated it and they would cannibalise their back sales
Could be... But it also might be that they intent to allow compatibility with Hasselblad lenses only... Lets not forget that since an adapter for H lenses has been announced, V-series lenses will also be compatible via the existing V to H adapter. This should mean that one can use the camera as image area on a view camera right away provided that it is combined with V (or H) lenses... It will only be an extention chord needed or an "active" bellows (which I'm sure view camera makers will provide instantly).
IMO it will all clear out when the adapter for H lenses is available, if it is a "dummy" adapter (which I believe it will be), it means that they have in mind to integrate the new product with the rest of the existing products, if it is an "active" one with new lens interface communication it will mean that they have different future plans...
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Why would any premium camera manufacturer make a facility to attach lesser quality lenses directly to the camera?
Marketing wise it only makes sense for lesser quality camera manufacturers to allow third party lenses to improve their lesser quality cameras.
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Because they could actually get more customers... Why should I buy into a System where I can't use any of my lenses and need to buy a complete new range ?
And it is quite fascinating that you actually think Leica S / Phase One lenses are inferior...
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A USB-C implementation would be horribly complex with too many parts and would be the most expensive cable releases on the market.
Why would there be many parts and much complexity? I am (perhaps naively) envisioning just one physical part: a cable from Hasselblad with a USB-C plug to go into the camera's USB-C socket. (Plus a firmware update enabling the camera to work with it.)
Are you thinking instead of what a third-party solution would involve?
Added. Here is an example of what I am imagining; an Olympus remote cable release that uses the micro-USB port.
http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/remote-cable-release-rm-uc1.html
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I just think one reason for the Sony A7 being so popular is that you can attach nearly every 35mm lens ever made. And 645 lenses. And LF lenses.
would have been great if there would be a MF option....
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This is just the first of the upcoming mirror-less cameras. If there is no ability to use it on a tech camera then another manufacturer will fill that gap. If Sony releases such a camera it will more than likely have that capability.
Victor
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I'm sure that in Hasselblad they did consider all these factors and decided in purpose to make the camera compatible with leaf shutter lenses only... To start with, the camera is not incompatible with view cameras, it is compatible but only if the lens's own shutter is operative by the same camera... This immediately makes it compatible with all H series lenses and with V lenses too through the available adapters.
Additionally, the camera gives them the opportunity to have a real Flexbody or Arcbody replacement if they make use of the 4.5 cm (or more for the V lenses) space that they have to "play" with...
OTOH, as people correctly mention, there will surely be another mirrorless with focal plane shutter coming as to play the part of the Sony in MF... There is also a good chance that this other mirrorless will be using the same sensor as Hasselblad does being considerably cheaper at the same time (just think of how much a mirrorless Pentax Z could cost)... It is then natural for Hasselblad not to get involved in the field of direct comparison, but to offer a solution that is quiet to use and provides solutions within the company's own products...
What if they have another version of the X1D that will add multishot ability to the camera? (like the same sensor 50ms & 200ms backs do) they have the interface and software ready for that ...don't they? Wouldn't that make the perfect base for one to build a tech camera system around the system and stick with Hasselblad lenses and accessories?
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I am pretty shure Hasselblad doesn't have too much interest in allowing the X1d to be used like a digital back, otherwise they would have stated it and they would cannibalise their back sales
Because they think mirrorless is the future and they aren't afraid to disrupt their own model? Because many (maybe most) who choose to shoot MFDB on a tech camera shoot a brand other than Hasselblad and they would like some more of that market?
I don't believe putting the body on a tech camera willbe something they themselves support, with adaptors and the like. It's more a matter as to whether the firmware will support it similarly to how current MFDB's do.
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Why would there be many parts and much complexity? I am (perhaps naively) envisioning just one physical part: a cable from Hasselblad with a USB-C plug to go into the camera's USB-C socket. (Plus a firmware update enabling the camera to work with it.)
Are you thinking instead of what a third-party solution would involve?
Added. Here is an example of what I am imagining; an Olympus remote cable release that uses the micro-USB port.
http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/remote-cable-release-rm-uc1.html
So that may work for a local release with their cable, but if I wanted to use a PocketWizard/Hahnel or a Kessler crane/other motorized base, were' still in a non-functional. The difference with the Olympus remote is that we've already seen camera makers use the 5pin USB2 port as a analog out cable, so this is just a pin-out with that form factor. Doing anything with USB-C requires a chip inside the cable release, not just a relay that'll close a circuit to trigger the shot.
-Joe
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I am pretty shure Hasselblad doesn't have too much interest in allowing the X1d to be used like a digital back, otherwise they would have stated it and they would cannibalise their back sales
Hasselblad makes 1 digital back - the CFV-50c, the others are 'camera systems'. Most dedicated view/technical camera users are buying a Phase/Leaf back, though there are some outliers, mostly due to the screens in the IQ series, plus wireless tethering, and power (for someone trying to reuse a H back). The CFV-50c needs to be refreshed with the new screen, and wifi added. Selling both at the $9k price point would be fine, where folks can select which style of shooting and which camera form factor they want.
Using the X1D as a 'back' for someone wanting to shoot with a shuttered lens should be functional in so much as it'll sync, but that's it. It could even be a $1k USB-C adapter and then it's an option. Yes, it's pandering to the 5% of buyers who even care, but for those who'll put it in a bag with a -100c or a H5x+IQ280 and a set of lenses it's important.
I'm not worried about a focal plane shutter - Hasselblad hasn't done one in decades, why start now.
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I guess the problem is, that the Sony chip doesn't allow global shutter. I still would prefer anything from Hasselblad to a Sony for my Actus setup
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It seems to me that the problem with implementing this stuff is that the Sony chip does not support global shutter, and that Hasselblad did not include a FPS.
The global shutter might come in a future, redesigned chip from Sony and I doubt an FPS will ever come. At the moment this is the best they could implement without increasing the thickness of the body (maybe significantly, considering the oversized chip,) and investing a lot of R&D money into designing a new shutter and associated dampening mechanisms.
It is possible that a competitor started designing their (rumored) DMF mirrorless AFTER Sony made a newer chip available, but somehow I doubt it right now. Photokina will tell us...
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Actually "global shutter" is something useful for video, but simple "electronic shutter" is more than enough for view-camera type applications. One may assume that Sony themselves have been playing around with various prototype cameras, still and video, on the basis of their chips - I would naively assume that the 50 has been available to them in the lab for at least 3 years if nobody were to contradict me with proof to the contrary.
Seeing the attention Sony paid to letting third party lenses adapt to their A7 series, I imagine it cannot have escaped their attention that users of Medium Format cameras based on their chips would appreciate being able to use third party lenses as well, and in fact the presence of electronic shutter would help with their own and customer's prototype testing :)
Of course, the present 50c chips are known to be capable of 4K = 8MP video exposures with any (shutterless) lens, and the next generation cameras in the lab are now 8K = 32MP.
http://www.4kshooters.net/2016/07/11/michael-bay-gets-the-first-red-8k-s35-helium-sensor-and-custom-camera-bayhem/
Edmund
It seems to me that the problem with implementing this stuff is that the Sony chip does not support global shutter, and that Hasselblad did not include a FPS.
The global shutter might come in a future, redesigned chip from Sony and I doubt an FPS will ever come. At the moment this is the best they could implement without increasing the thickness of the body (maybe significantly, considering the oversized chip,) and investing a lot of R&D money into designing a new shutter and associated dampening mechanisms.
It is possible that a competitor started designing their (rumored) DMF mirrorless AFTER Sony made a newer chip available, but somehow I doubt it right now. Photokina will tell us...
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There are several references in this thread to using the X1D on a view camera or tech camera by using it sync cable (as one does with current digital backs). Does anyone have a definitive reference or info source from Hasselblad stating that this will be possible, or that it will be implemented (at launch, or later)?
Please note this post is not a criticism or statement that it won't be possible. It is simply an inquiry since I have not seen anything from Hasselblad itself that states operation of the X1D will be supported with any body or lens other than the native and HC-via-adapter lenses. I'm not an expert on this system nor a Hassy dealer so I could have easily missed such info.
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There are several references in this thread to using the X1D on a view camera or tech camera by using it sync cable (as one does with current digital backs).
Actually, looking back to the thread there aren't "several references" for using a sync cable... only one suggested that this may be the case... The discussion is more about the incompatibility of the shutter with other lenses (of other makers) that have an (incompatible) leaf shutter to the X1D, or to the fact that one can use it right now with H or V lenses on his view camera...
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Seeing the sub $10K price of the CFV 50c back, this issue is not exactly going to impact the sales of the X1D, would be my first thought.
Edmund
There are several references in this thread to using the X1D on a view camera or tech camera by using it sync cable (as one does with current digital backs). Does anyone have a definitive reference or info source from Hasselblad stating that this will be possible, or that it will be implemented (at launch, or later)?
Please note this post is not a criticism or statement that it won't be possible. It is simply an inquiry since I have not seen anything from Hasselblad itself that states operation of the X1D will be supported with any body or lens other than the native and HC-via-adapter lenses. I'm not an expert on this system nor a Hassy dealer so I could have easily missed such info.
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Ming Thein posted a hands on review... https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/#more-13288
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Ming Thein posted a hands on review... https://blog.mingthein.com/2016/07/06/hasselblad-x1d-early-impressions-with-samples/#more-13288
Theo, thanks for posting that.
One of the rare cases where the hands-on review really reads like a hands-on review.
Could almost have been a Michael review - made me remember that there won't be a Michael review of this landscape camera :(
Edmund
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There are several references in this thread to using the X1D on a view camera or tech camera by using it sync cable (as one does with current digital backs). Does anyone have a definitive reference or info source from Hasselblad stating that this will be possible, or that it will be implemented (at launch, or later)?
Please note this post is not a criticism or statement that it won't be possible. It is simply an inquiry since I have not seen anything from Hasselblad itself that states operation of the X1D will be supported with any body or lens other than the native and HC-via-adapter lenses. I'm not an expert on this system nor a Hassy dealer so I could have easily missed such info.
The camera as it stands does not have a sync in or sync out port. My issue is that without a cable release port, I'm unable to use the camera in situations where it should work. Maybe it'll be a USB-C thing - then again, doing a lens board with a Schneider lens mounted to a Schneider Electronic Shutter pulling power from the body over USB-C would be pretty damn cool.
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What if they have another version of the X1D that will add multishot ability to the camera? (like the same sensor 50ms & 200ms backs do) they have the interface and software ready for that ...don't they? Wouldn't that make the perfect base for one to build a tech camera system around the system and stick with Hasselblad lenses and accessories?
This will never happen.
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Hi,
Sony will not add global shutter on the MFD CMOS sensors any soon. That technology is hardly possible today.
What they may add is a silent shutter, where reset and readout slide across the sensor area, acting as two curtains. But, with present technology sweep is slow, like 1/15s or so.
Sony and other vendors work on stacked sensors and those may deliver global shutters, but global shutter is not an add-on solution to today's sensors.
Best regards
Erik
It seems to me that the problem with implementing this stuff is that the Sony chip does not support global shutter, and that Hasselblad did not include a FPS.
The global shutter might come in a future, redesigned chip from Sony and I doubt an FPS will ever come. At the moment this is the best they could implement without increasing the thickness of the body (maybe significantly, considering the oversized chip,) and investing a lot of R&D money into designing a new shutter and associated dampening mechanisms.
It is possible that a competitor started designing their (rumored) DMF mirrorless AFTER Sony made a newer chip available, but somehow I doubt it right now. Photokina will tell us...
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Hi Edmund,
That's a good point… I would expect a new version of the CFV 50c with the new electronics from the H6 and X1D.
Best regards
Erik
Seeing the sub $10K price of the CFV 50c back, this issue is not exactly going to impact the sales of the X1D, would be my first thought.
Edmund
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Seeing the sub $10K price of the CFV 50c back, this issue is not exactly going to impact the sales of the X1D, would be my first thought.
Indeed, for view camera use it would seem that the most natural choice is a back like the CFV 50c or its successors, already wired for tethering, rather than this camera body with integrated lens mount. There is a hint that Hasselblad thinks so in this quote from http://www.hasselblad.com/digital-backs/cfv-50c
In addition, the CFV-50c not only allows photographers to exploit V System equipment but various traditional large- format / technical / view cameras too.
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Is the hole at the top of the hotshoe a 2.5mm sync connector?
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Is the hole at the top of the hotshoe a 2.5mm sync connector?
Nope, it's the lock pin for the flash.
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Put my mitts on it yesterday at Samys in Pasadena. Feels nice in the hand, but the EVF just isn't for me. Seemed small and not to what I thought Hasselblad would include in this level of camera. Lens size seemed disproportionate to the body size.
I guess I'm still on the hunt for a "digital Mamiya 7II" so to speak.
Wish them all the best, I still live the H system, but the X1D just isn't for me :)
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Put my mitts on it yesterday at Samys in Pasadena. Feels nice in the hand, but the EVF just isn't for me. Seemed small and not to what I thought Hasselblad would include in this level of camera. Lens size seemed disproportionate to the body size.
I guess I'm still on the hunt for a "digital Mamiya 7II" so to speak.
Wish them all the best, I still live the H system, but the X1D just isn't for me :)
In hearing about all of the missing features that are "deal killers" on the X1D, I found the following quite amusing and, I think, spot on:
http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com.au/2016/07/the-meh-factor-or-why-x-is-deal-killer.html
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It is certain that whenever a "game changer" will appear, there will be all shorts of negative comments hopping to negatively affect the market appreciation from the public... The truth in this case, is that a major player in the market has brought out a product that not only is a game changer as far as ergonomics or portability is concerned, but it is as competitively priced too as to steal sales from all shorts of market sections (even from Pentax)...
In reality this is an H6D-50, lucking only the modularity and the mirrorbox of the H6D-50 and then priced at less than 40%... The price is that makes the product not only a game changer because of the design, but additionally a game changer in the field on where the game is played.
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It might for some. And it is a great camera if you own some Hassi gear. However, why is it changing anything only because it has 7 more MP compared to a Sony ? And costs three times that ?
I really don't get that big of a fuss about it. This might sound a bit over negative, but from the professional and rent studios I know it's not even changing enough to buy it...
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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However, why is it changing anything only because it has 7 more MP compared to a Sony ? And costs three times that ?
You seem to be setting a new argument yourself and then answering it your self again... Nobody here said that its a game changer "because it offers 7 more MP than Sony and costs 3 times as much"... :o In fact there are people buying 50mp MF that costs SIX times as much as a Canon 5ds.... ???
The argument that was set (which makes most believe that this will be a major market success), is that it is the same specified as an H6D-50 (but the optical finder and detachable back) and only costs less than 40% of what the H6D-50 costs... I guess since many buy H6D-50 (or H5D-50, or other -even more expensive- competitive camera) and detach their backs only to clean them and many more use their MF with LV anyway... they'll then prefer to spent (at least) 60% less.... ;)
They even have cash left (if they wish - which I doubt) to additionally buy an H6D-50 in three months time when all these (lightly used) S/H H6Ds will flood the market coming from the people that they have replaced them with their H6D-100 orders... ;D
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And it still DOES NOT do the same thing a back does. So I actually don't care if it is cheaper, because for what It can't do the things I need it to do. If I wouldn't need a back I would buy a mirror less but certainly not one which houses a 2 year old sensor.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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And it still DOES NOT do the same thing a back does. So I actually don't care if it is cheaper, because for what It can't do the things I need it to do.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
Now that's better... it's always better if one doesn't confuse his needs with the market needs... and it's also good information for the rest to know what you do and the areas of what you do that this camera won't fulfill (so that they know the limitations of their buy)... ;) will you care to be more specific as to explain it then?
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Don't really think there is anything to explain.
It's a great camera and perhaps a future one for me once we are at a second or third generation. (Depending on what the rest of the industry does.)
It might sound silly, but as being used to 80MP and now 100MP it's hard to see a 50MP as the thing to invest in. For now I'll just stick to my XF and my two digital backs. As long as I don't mind carrying a large heavy backpack when traveling I really don't care.
Let's see what happens and I honestly don't care if who in the end gets the money for a second system. I love the competition because finally we have some movement in the market.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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In hearing about all of the missing features that are "deal killers" on the X1D, I found the following quite amusing and, I think, spot on:
http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com.au/2016/07/the-meh-factor-or-why-x-is-deal-killer.html
The X1D is meh: It will not increase my sexual ability more than Viagra, enhance my intelligence more than Modafinil, or diminish my general obnoxiousness any better than Xanax. Also it probably won't improve my pictures. But, now that I think of it, forums are pretty meh too. Apart from some of James early work on RG, and the stuff he posted this week which was an eye-opener on color matching, I don't think anything by anyone who posted on this forum has ever truly improved my very small picturing ability, in the same way as few of the novels I have read in my life seem to have improved my understanding of women, and none has actually made me ... taller :)
Edmund
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Hi,
It has 1/2000s shutter sync, medium format magic and a Hasselblad logo…
Seriously, this is also a question I ask my self. The 44x33 sensor may be a bit to small to give a significant advantage over 24x36 mm.
On the other hand that sensor size may be a very good one, if combined with excellent lenses. Hasselblad seems to intend it to be small. The lenses presented so far seem to be medium aperture, compact and very good.
This is an interesting point. Sony has nice little camera in the Sony A7-series. But, all high quality lenses are large and heavy. Some folks, me included, would prefer high quality lenses with medium apertures. There is some probability that we are going to see new generations of those CMOS sensors from Sony, my guess is that we will see a 100+ MP 44x33mm sensor in a couple of years.
Best regards
Erik
It might for some. And it is a great camera if you own some Hassi gear. However, why is it changing anything only because it has 7 more MP compared to a Sony ? And costs three times that ?
I really don't get that big of a fuss about it. This might sound a bit over negative, but from the professional and rent studios I know it's not even changing enough to buy it...
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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I love the competition because finally we have some movement in the market.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
Agreed... but in this case we have to see it first (price wise too) and then call it competition.... and if this is a major (or the dominant) product for MF sales, or if it is the cause for (direct) competition to enter and dominate the market, then every bit of the phrase "game changer" is satisfied...
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In the following "hands on review" of Imaging resource http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/hasselblad-x1d/hasselblad-x1dA.HTM One can notice the following most impressive comment:
"I also gleaned a couple of interesting tidbits about Hasselblad's sense of the market for the X1D, and they told me that it is already back ordered for the rest of this year after only one day on the market." :o :o :o
I guess it is a game changer after all....
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I would get it for landscape and some travel, but first it needs more lenses (especially wides). It's small, has a great sensor and the lenses all look crazy sharp. Even if it lacks a lot of the advanced features you'll find in a Sony a7 or a m43 system and it's slower than those, it would give you great images.
The cost is frankly relative. People are willing to pay ungodly amount of money for an Alpa TC (which is nothing more than a well made piece of metal, with a wooden grip that costs as much as the body itself), the X1D seems like a bargain in comparison. :P
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Or really bad product planing. Only because it is back ordered means nothing without knowing actual figures. There is a huge difference between 1000 and 100000 cameras ;)
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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The drift of this thread is so typical in internet forums discussing a new camera. The conversation becomes dominated by masters of negativity where there was always ZERO chance from the start that they would ever have purchased the camera. They have lack either the need or the means to buy it (or both), so they obsessively try to tear it down, all the while sanctimoniously saying that competition in the industry is good.
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The drift of this thread is so typical in internet forums discussing a new camera. The conversation becomes dominated by masters of negativity where there was always ZERO chance from the start that they would ever have purchased the camera. They have lack either the need or the means to buy it (or both), so they obsessively try to tear it down, all the while sanctimoniously saying that competition in the industry is good.
Yes, horrible. Just let them troll further on and dream-on for a competitor cam with multiple more options and features for a fraction of the price... I am glad having ordered on the first day of appearance, especially after my dealer tells me that it is now that much back-ordered that the chance to get on now within this year is minimal...
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Yes, horrible. Just let them troll further on and dream-on for a competitor cam with multiple more options and features for a fraction of the price... I am glad having ordered on the first day of appearance, especially after my dealer tells me that it is now that much back-ordered that the chance to get on now within this year is minimal...
Most likely the exact same scenario as for the H6D, I was told a couple of months ago that H6D-100c was due for delivery in december if I ordered it back then. Hasselblad is on a roll, that's for sure. As a swede, I approve. At the same time I went the competition route with Phase a day after X1D was unveiled since it didn't fit my requirements. Apparently I'm not a true patriot. At least I still chose Scandinavian... :)
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Leica already reacted announcing a trade up program... They've never done that before EVER!
https://captureintegration.com/leica-announces-s-system-trade-up-program/
It seems to me that the phrase "game changer" is more related to the X1D's positioning in the market than it being the smallest or lightest highly (right at the TOP) specified MF... Although it is early to jump into conclusions, the X1D may well be the cause as to both make MF affordable to the masses as well as to significantly widen the MF market up... At least the first signs point to that being true...
Lets not forget, that during the announcement of the X1D, the CEO Mr. Oosting mentioned that "The H6D intro had a phenomenal appreciation from the market, like never before in Hasselblad's history"... he added that "the market appreciation passed their most optimistic expectations"... I should also remind that on his latest interview, Mr. Oosting implemented that they expect for the MF to expand, his exact words where that "an entry level MF camera will attract more new comers to MF"...
It is reasonable to expect that if the MF market expands, more major camera makers (out of the mass market) will be attracted as to make MF cameras for prestige reasons... Lets not forget that the X1D is compatible with the Nikon speedlight system... lets not also forget that the lenses for the X1D system are made in Japan by other than the up to now known collaborators of Hasselblad and are claimed to be of phenomenal optical quality...
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Yes, horrible. Just let them troll further on and dream-on for a competitor cam with multiple more options and features for a fraction of the price... I am glad having ordered on the first day of appearance, especially after my dealer tells me that it is now that much back-ordered that the chance to get on now within this year is minimal...
+1
In most of the negative posts, in terms of "missing" features, people seem to be complaining that Hasselblad essentially didn't announce an A7RII with a larger sensor. For those that actually need all those features, such as IBIS or extensive use of 3rd party lenses, the A7RII is obviously a better tool as it fits those needs better and checks more of the boxes, so why complain the X1D doesn't fit your needs? If people are looking for an A7RII with the Sony 50mp MF sensor instead of the current 24x36mm 42mp BSI, Sony is the most likely candidate to announce such a camera and I'm not sure why it was expected of Hasselblad.
In particular, I don't understand the negativity surrounding the lack of FPS and 3rd party lens compatibility. Some MF manufacturers, like Hasselblad and Phase, have always been "closed" to some degree (Phase with Capture One and MF image processing, Hasselblad with backs, you can't use Leica S lenses on another platform, you can't use a P1 35mm blue ring LS with an H6D-100c, etc)...why would people expect that to change now? Hasselblad just announced a new lens lineup that seems to deliver excellent H-lens like quality at a fraction of the cost of H-lenses. That's amazing. Compatibilty with 3rd party lenses would decrease sales of XCD lenses, so IMHO they'd have little motivation to allow extensive 3rd party lens use (like people do on the A7/A7x series). It's wonderful that mirrorless allows for adapting lenses and that people can use a Canon 17mm TS-E on systems other than Canon (I'd love to get one for my A7R), but it's unfortunate that people now seem to expect this from new mirrorless systems. I haven't done due diligence, but there may even be some intellectual property owned by Sony (or other manufacturers) that would prevent Hasselblad from implementing it without licensing, which would drive up the cost and complexity of the camera and could be another explanation for "missing" features.
People also seem to be using "missing features" as their own justification either not to purchase, or to tell themselves "it's ok that I can't afford it because it lacks features". Take the comment in the thread about a "missing" sync port for example. The X1D has a Nikon compatible hot shoe, and there are Nikon hot shoe to PC-sync port adaptors available that can be purchased for less than $30 USD. I can't imagine why a solution like this (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Flash-Adapters/AS-15-Sync-Terminal-Adapter-%28Hot-Shoe-to-PC%29.html) wouldn't work if a sync port is needed, but it's more fun to comment about lack of features and write off cameras due to "deal-breakers" in forums I suppose rather than try to find a solution (no camera is 100% perfect) to get a camera/camera system to fit your needs.
I appreciate all the hands-on reports that people are contributing and look forward to reading more. As an existing H-system user, I think it's amazing that Hasselblad put out what essentially is an H6D-50c (sans mirror, modularity, upgrade path, and a couple other things) for 1/3 of the cost (34.6% to be exact) of an H6D-50c. I am looking to upgrade my H4D-40, which I could trade in for an H6D-50c for ~$16k USD, or I could buy an X1D, the 45mm, the 90mm, and H-adaptor for ~$14k - I could do almost everything I could with an H6D-50c, have $2k leftover, AND get to keep to my H4D-40. The reduced size/weight of the X system compared to the H system is a big deal as well as basically all of my photography involves travel. It looks like Hasselblad kept the interface of the X1D simple as well, big gripes I have in terms of user experience with my A7R and X-T1. I need to demo one myself first, but I'm hoping to order one start of 2017...
-
Leica already reacted announcing a trade up program... They've never done that before EVER!
https://captureintegration.com/leica-announces-s-system-trade-up-program/
It seems to me that the phrase "game changer" is more related to the X1D's positioning in the market than it being the smallest or lightest highly (right at the TOP) specified MF... Although it is early to jump into conclusions, the X1D may well be the cause as to both make MF affordable to the masses as well as to significantly widen the MF market up... At least the first signs point to that being true...
Lets not forget, that during the announcement of the X1D, the CEO Mr. Oosting mentioned that "The H6D intro had a phenomenal appreciation from the market, like never before in Hasselblad's history"... he added that "the market appreciation passed their most optimistic expectations"... I should also remind that on his latest interview, Mr. Oosting implemented that they expect for the MF to expand, his exact words where that "an entry level MF camera will attract more new comers to MF"...
It is reasonable to expect that if the MF market expands, more major camera makers (out of the mass market) will be attracted as to make MF cameras for prestige reasons... Lets not forget that the X1D is compatible with the Nikon speedlight system... lets not also forget that the lenses for the X1D system are made in Japan by other than the up to now known collaborators of Hasselblad and are claimed to be of phenomenal optical quality...
errrr Theo....that promotion was posted April 2014 and expired 6/30/2014
-
+1
In most of the negative posts, in terms of "missing" features, people seem to be complaining that Hasselblad essentially didn't announce an A7RII with a larger sensor. For those that actually need all those features, such as IBIS or extensive use of 3rd party lenses, the A7RII is obviously a better tool as it fits those needs better and checks more of the boxes, so why complain the X1D doesn't fit your needs? If people are looking for an A7RII with the Sony 50mp MF sensor instead of the current 24x36mm 42mp BSI, Sony is the most likely candidate to announce such a camera and I'm not sure why it was expected of Hasselblad.
In particular, I don't understand the negativity surrounding the lack of FPS and 3rd party lens compatibility. Some MF manufacturers, like Hasselblad and Phase, have always been "closed" to some degree (Phase with Capture One and MF image processing, Hasselblad with backs, you can't use Leica S lenses on another platform, you can't use a P1 35mm blue ring LS with an H6D-100c, etc)...why would people expect that to change now? Hasselblad just announced a new lens lineup that seems to deliver excellent H-lens like quality at a fraction of the cost of H-lenses. That's amazing. Compatibilty with 3rd party lenses would decrease sales of XCD lenses, so IMHO they'd have little motivation to allow extensive 3rd party lens use (like people do on the A7/A7x series). It's wonderful that mirrorless allows for adapting lenses and that people can use a Canon 17mm TS-E on systems other than Canon (I'd love to get one for my A7R), but it's unfortunate that people now seem to expect this from new mirrorless systems. I haven't done due diligence, but there may even be some intellectual property owned by Sony (or other manufacturers) that would prevent Hasselblad from implementing it without licensing, which would drive up the cost and complexity of the camera and could be another explanation for "missing" features.
People also seem to be using "missing features" as their own justification either not to purchase, or to tell themselves "it's ok that I can't afford it because it lacks features". Take the comment in the thread about a "missing" sync port for example. The X1D has a Nikon compatible hot shoe, and there are Nikon hot shoe to PC-sync port adaptors available that can be purchased for less than $30 USD. I can't imagine why a solution like this (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Flash-Adapters/AS-15-Sync-Terminal-Adapter-%28Hot-Shoe-to-PC%29.html) wouldn't work if a sync port is needed, but it's more fun to comment about lack of features and write off cameras due to "deal-breakers" in forums I suppose rather than try to find a solution (no camera is 100% perfect) to get a camera/camera system to fit your needs.
I appreciate all the hands-on reports that people are contributing and look forward to reading more. As an existing H-system user, I think it's amazing that Hasselblad put out what essentially is an H6D-50c (sans mirror, modularity, upgrade path, and a couple other things) for 1/3 of the cost (34.6% to be exact) of an H6D-50c. I am looking to upgrade my H4D-40, which I could trade in for an H6D-50c for ~$16k USD, or I could buy an X1D, the 45mm, the 90mm, and H-adaptor for ~$14k - I could do almost everything I could with an H6D-50c, have $2k leftover, AND get to keep to my H4D-40. The reduced size/weight of the X system compared to the H system is a big deal as well as basically all of my photography involves travel. It looks like Hasselblad kept the interface of the X1D simple as well, big gripes I have in terms of user experience with my A7R and X-T1. I need to demo one myself first, but I'm hoping to order one start of 2017...
Todd, very well said. +1
I pre-ordered on June 23 and hope to have one in my hands this year.
Joe
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It looks like Hasselblad kept the interface of the X1D simple as well, big gripes I have in terms of user experience with my A7R and X-T1.
That's one of the things that's drawing me to it. I tried the a7II and RX100III and the menu systems were really not that great. You can work with them and there are plenty of options, but I find them unnecessary convoluted. I'm starting to dislike heavily the menus on my Nikons as well, but at least I have those set up in such a way I rarely have to dig through the options.
All I expect the X1D to do is take great pictures and not hinder me. The fact that I've already gotten a great offer from my local shop is another plus for me.
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errrr Theo....that promotion was posted April 2014 and expired 6/30/2014
There is a new one announced additionally to the one before... here is Leica's official release for Europe... https://www.leica-storemayfair.co.uk/pages/leica-professional-trade-in-promotion I thought of posting an American link since there is already a discussion going on on the matter...
Never the less, I don't expect Leica's reaction to buy them enough protection from X1D dominating the market... It will need most makers to significantly revise their pricing policies as to achieve that.... It seems to me that Hasselblad's marketing positioning of the X1D caught the competition both by surprise and thus totally unprepared... Never the less, if the competition (all of it) achieves to react by revising their pricing policies, it may result in significant market expansion of the MF volume...
Makers have to realize that MF users of modern Cmos sensors use LV far more than the respective FF DSLR users and additionally the makers that offer detachable backs, most of their customers remove them off the camera only to clean them up... So to all those people, the X1D offers a directly competitive product that they'll have nothing to miss out of their up to now use, but being miles ahead for portability and at a fraction of the cost...
There are of course people that make use of their optical finders and backs (as stand alone), but they aren't the majority that supports the MF market up to now and additionally, many of them tend to keep their equipment from the past as to keep using for these applications and only upgrade for the "integrated camera" use....
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As the OP, I really ask all to keep on topic - those who've had one in hand and questions specific to the handling of the X1D.
My one requirement is the wired cable release. The app is a nice toy, but I have zero faith in wifi within a stadium environment, and that's where I'd use it.
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...
My one requirement is the wired cable release. The app is a nice toy, but I have zero faith in wifi within a stadium environment, and that's where I'd use it.
Agree that using an app as remote release would be cumbersome. With my Nikons and Hasselblad I often avoid using wired cable release and use shutter delay of 2 to 5 seconds instead.
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Delayed shot works for a single one, love how I can activate it with a double tap of the M.Up button on the H4.
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Hopefully there will be some kind of solution using the USB port, both to provide a physical remote shutter and a sync port.
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+1
In most of the negative posts, in terms of "missing" features, people seem to be complaining that Hasselblad essentially didn't announce an A7RII with a larger sensor. For those that actually need all those features, such as IBIS or extensive use of 3rd party lenses, the A7RII is obviously a better tool as it fits those needs better and checks more of the boxes, so why complain the X1D doesn't fit your needs? If people are looking for an A7RII with the Sony 50mp MF sensor instead of the current 24x36mm 42mp BSI, Sony is the most likely candidate to announce such a camera and I'm not sure why it was expected of Hasselblad.
In particular, I don't understand the negativity surrounding the lack of FPS and 3rd party lens compatibility. Some MF manufacturers, like Hasselblad and Phase, have always been "closed" to some degree (Phase with Capture One and MF image processing, Hasselblad with backs, you can't use Leica S lenses on another platform, you can't use a P1 35mm blue ring LS with an H6D-100c, etc)...why would people expect that to change now? Hasselblad just announced a new lens lineup that seems to deliver excellent H-lens like quality at a fraction of the cost of H-lenses. That's amazing. Compatibilty with 3rd party lenses would decrease sales of XCD lenses, so IMHO they'd have little motivation to allow extensive 3rd party lens use (like people do on the A7/A7x series). It's wonderful that mirrorless allows for adapting lenses and that people can use a Canon 17mm TS-E on systems other than Canon (I'd love to get one for my A7R), but it's unfortunate that people now seem to expect this from new mirrorless systems. I haven't done due diligence, but there may even be some intellectual property owned by Sony (or other manufacturers) that would prevent Hasselblad from implementing it without licensing, which would drive up the cost and complexity of the camera and could be another explanation for "missing" features.
People also seem to be using "missing features" as their own justification either not to purchase, or to tell themselves "it's ok that I can't afford it because it lacks features". Take the comment in the thread about a "missing" sync port for example. The X1D has a Nikon compatible hot shoe, and there are Nikon hot shoe to PC-sync port adaptors available that can be purchased for less than $30 USD. I can't imagine why a solution like this (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Flash-Adapters/AS-15-Sync-Terminal-Adapter-%28Hot-Shoe-to-PC%29.html) wouldn't work if a sync port is needed, but it's more fun to comment about lack of features and write off cameras due to "deal-breakers" in forums I suppose rather than try to find a solution (no camera is 100% perfect) to get a camera/camera system to fit your needs.
I appreciate all the hands-on reports that people are contributing and look forward to reading more. As an existing H-system user, I think it's amazing that Hasselblad put out what essentially is an H6D-50c (sans mirror, modularity, upgrade path, and a couple other things) for 1/3 of the cost (34.6% to be exact) of an H6D-50c. I am looking to upgrade my H4D-40, which I could trade in for an H6D-50c for ~$16k USD, or I could buy an X1D, the 45mm, the 90mm, and H-adaptor for ~$14k - I could do almost everything I could with an H6D-50c, have $2k leftover, AND get to keep to my H4D-40. The reduced size/weight of the X system compared to the H system is a big deal as well as basically all of my photography involves travel. It looks like Hasselblad kept the interface of the X1D simple as well, big gripes I have in terms of user experience with my A7R and X-T1. I need to demo one myself first, but I'm hoping to order one start of 2017...
Could not agree more! Well said!
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errrr Theo....that promotion was posted April 2014 and expired 6/30/2014
Good catch, Mr. Deveau. Theo made an error in his own post and disproved his own theory in the process. 2 thumbs up.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Good catch, Mr. Deveau. Theo made an error in his own post and disproved his own theory in the process. 2 thumbs up.
Steve Hendrix/CI
The post may include an error (corrected ages ago) but Leica is running a major promotion program world wide and thus there is no "theory disproved"...
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The post may include an error (corrected ages ago) but Leica is running a major promotion program world wide and thus there is no "theory disproved"...
Leica already reacted announcing a trade up program... They've never done that before EVER!
https://captureintegration.com/leica-announces-s-system-trade-up-program/
You posted that Leica had never run a trade in promotion before and then referenced a post from our website showing a trade in promotion that was from 2 years ago... that was the part of the theory I was referring to...
And I'm just making a friendly poke, Theo, don't take it too seriously.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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He has to that's his life.
However, to the point. My guess is more Leica wants to clear some inventory before their next release.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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Cfast and SDXD cards and reader waiting to be filled by X1D and H6D-100c! ;D
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Cfast and SDXD cards and reader waiting to be filled by X1D and H6D-100c! ;D
And I remember when all it took was a lab with E6... How inexpensive, those happy days!
;-)
Rob
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And I remember when all it took was a lab with E6... How inexpensive, those happy days!
;-)
Rob
I need an oracle, a rabbit's foot and a 4 leaved clover to find an E6 lab these days.
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synn, Keith:
We reap what we sow.
;-)
Rob
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well, I had my own some 30 years ago, b/w only, but still was fun though these days... ;)
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Looking at the lens specs I see both the 45 and 90 have a 67mm filter. Is there any information/rumors on what size filter the 30 will take?
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Looking at the lens specs I see both the 45 and 90 have a 67mm filter. Is there any information/rumors on what size filter the 30 will take?
As long as it's not a 95mm I'll be happy - I'd really like to use 4x4 filters, and while I have a CPL & rings to fit it, a little more breathing room would be appreciated. Lee Wide Angle 77mm or 82mm would be ideal.
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Hi,
It is a bit mixed. A lot of people want a Sony A7rII type device. Why, because it can do a lot of tricks most cameras can't do. Like offering tilt and shift and being able to use Canon lenses.
It may happen that you don't need an MFD device that can use a Canon 11-24/4 L zoom with tilt and shift, but many shooters actually use things like that. So they hoped they would be able to use the X1D instead of the Sony.
Now, I am pretty sure that Hasselblad has made it's market research and arrived at the conclusion that there is a great market for a small and portable MFD camera system.
It is a bold step and I wish them good luck.
Is there a risk with that bold decision? Maybe that the step up from 42 to 50 MP may not be significant enough. Sony A7rII is clearly the main competitor to the X1D and Sony starts to have an impressive lens program, especially if purpose made third part lenses like Batis, Loxia and Voigthlander are taken into account.
The other main competitor is Leica… But, Leica's product portfolio is a mess. You have Leica S, Leica SL, Leica M, Leica Q. None of them comes close to the 50 MP of the Hasselblad.
Best regards
Erik
+1
In most of the negative posts, in terms of "missing" features, people seem to be complaining that Hasselblad essentially didn't announce an A7RII with a larger sensor. For those that actually need all those features, such as IBIS or extensive use of 3rd party lenses, the A7RII is obviously a better tool as it fits those needs better and checks more of the boxes, so why complain the X1D doesn't fit your needs? If people are looking for an A7RII with the Sony 50mp MF sensor instead of the current 24x36mm 42mp BSI, Sony is the most likely candidate to announce such a camera and I'm not sure why it was expected of Hasselblad.
In particular, I don't understand the negativity surrounding the lack of FPS and 3rd party lens compatibility. Some MF manufacturers, like Hasselblad and Phase, have always been "closed" to some degree (Phase with Capture One and MF image processing, Hasselblad with backs, you can't use Leica S lenses on another platform, you can't use a P1 35mm blue ring LS with an H6D-100c, etc)...why would people expect that to change now? Hasselblad just announced a new lens lineup that seems to deliver excellent H-lens like quality at a fraction of the cost of H-lenses. That's amazing. Compatibilty with 3rd party lenses would decrease sales of XCD lenses, so IMHO they'd have little motivation to allow extensive 3rd party lens use (like people do on the A7/A7x series). It's wonderful that mirrorless allows for adapting lenses and that people can use a Canon 17mm TS-E on systems other than Canon (I'd love to get one for my A7R), but it's unfortunate that people now seem to expect this from new mirrorless systems. I haven't done due diligence, but there may even be some intellectual property owned by Sony (or other manufacturers) that would prevent Hasselblad from implementing it without licensing, which would drive up the cost and complexity of the camera and could be another explanation for "missing" features.
People also seem to be using "missing features" as their own justification either not to purchase, or to tell themselves "it's ok that I can't afford it because it lacks features". Take the comment in the thread about a "missing" sync port for example. The X1D has a Nikon compatible hot shoe, and there are Nikon hot shoe to PC-sync port adaptors available that can be purchased for less than $30 USD. I can't imagine why a solution like this (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Flash-Adapters/AS-15-Sync-Terminal-Adapter-%28Hot-Shoe-to-PC%29.html) wouldn't work if a sync port is needed, but it's more fun to comment about lack of features and write off cameras due to "deal-breakers" in forums I suppose rather than try to find a solution (no camera is 100% perfect) to get a camera/camera system to fit your needs.
I appreciate all the hands-on reports that people are contributing and look forward to reading more. As an existing H-system user, I think it's amazing that Hasselblad put out what essentially is an H6D-50c (sans mirror, modularity, upgrade path, and a couple other things) for 1/3 of the cost (34.6% to be exact) of an H6D-50c. I am looking to upgrade my H4D-40, which I could trade in for an H6D-50c for ~$16k USD, or I could buy an X1D, the 45mm, the 90mm, and H-adaptor for ~$14k - I could do almost everything I could with an H6D-50c, have $2k leftover, AND get to keep to my H4D-40. The reduced size/weight of the X system compared to the H system is a big deal as well as basically all of my photography involves travel. It looks like Hasselblad kept the interface of the X1D simple as well, big gripes I have in terms of user experience with my A7R and X-T1. I need to demo one myself first, but I'm hoping to order one start of 2017...
-
There is much to agree with in your post. People who would buy MF are now indeed using the A7IIR as a baseline for their "feature expectations", rightly or wrongly. This explains the negativity perceived here for the launch of a well defined and well-priced Hasselblad.
Edmund
+1
In most of the negative posts, in terms of "missing" features, people seem to be complaining that Hasselblad essentially didn't announce an A7RII with a larger sensor. For those that actually need all those features, such as IBIS or extensive use of 3rd party lenses, the A7RII is obviously a better tool as it fits those needs better and checks more of the boxes, so why complain the X1D doesn't fit your needs? If people are looking for an A7RII with the Sony 50mp MF sensor instead of the current 24x36mm 42mp BSI, Sony is the most likely candidate to announce such a camera and I'm not sure why it was expected of Hasselblad.
In particular, I don't understand the negativity surrounding the lack of FPS and 3rd party lens compatibility. Some MF manufacturers, like Hasselblad and Phase, have always been "closed" to some degree (Phase with Capture One and MF image processing, Hasselblad with backs, you can't use Leica S lenses on another platform, you can't use a P1 35mm blue ring LS with an H6D-100c, etc)...why would people expect that to change now? Hasselblad just announced a new lens lineup that seems to deliver excellent H-lens like quality at a fraction of the cost of H-lenses. That's amazing. Compatibilty with 3rd party lenses would decrease sales of XCD lenses, so IMHO they'd have little motivation to allow extensive 3rd party lens use (like people do on the A7/A7x series). It's wonderful that mirrorless allows for adapting lenses and that people can use a Canon 17mm TS-E on systems other than Canon (I'd love to get one for my A7R), but it's unfortunate that people now seem to expect this from new mirrorless systems. I haven't done due diligence, but there may even be some intellectual property owned by Sony (or other manufacturers) that would prevent Hasselblad from implementing it without licensing, which would drive up the cost and complexity of the camera and could be another explanation for "missing" features.
People also seem to be using "missing features" as their own justification either not to purchase, or to tell themselves "it's ok that I can't afford it because it lacks features". Take the comment in the thread about a "missing" sync port for example. The X1D has a Nikon compatible hot shoe, and there are Nikon hot shoe to PC-sync port adaptors available that can be purchased for less than $30 USD. I can't imagine why a solution like this (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Flash-Adapters/AS-15-Sync-Terminal-Adapter-%28Hot-Shoe-to-PC%29.html) wouldn't work if a sync port is needed, but it's more fun to comment about lack of features and write off cameras due to "deal-breakers" in forums I suppose rather than try to find a solution (no camera is 100% perfect) to get a camera/camera system to fit your needs.
I appreciate all the hands-on reports that people are contributing and look forward to reading more. As an existing H-system user, I think it's amazing that Hasselblad put out what essentially is an H6D-50c (sans mirror, modularity, upgrade path, and a couple other things) for 1/3 of the cost (34.6% to be exact) of an H6D-50c. I am looking to upgrade my H4D-40, which I could trade in for an H6D-50c for ~$16k USD, or I could buy an X1D, the 45mm, the 90mm, and H-adaptor for ~$14k - I could do almost everything I could with an H6D-50c, have $2k leftover, AND get to keep to my H4D-40. The reduced size/weight of the X system compared to the H system is a big deal as well as basically all of my photography involves travel. It looks like Hasselblad kept the interface of the X1D simple as well, big gripes I have in terms of user experience with my A7R and X-T1. I need to demo one myself first, but I'm hoping to order one start of 2017...
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A lot of people want a Sony A7rII type device.
Sony A7rII is clearly the main competitor to the X1D
If you want a Sony then buy a Sony.
Hasselblad make professional cameras and that has always been it's core business.
Sony makes consumer electronics and that is its core business. It used to make the best TVs, used to make the best music players, used to make the best laptops. At the moment it is excited about cameras and probably makes the best sensors, but only if consumers want them and something more profitable does not come along.
If you use a Hasselblad, and understand why, then the X1D looks pretty exciting and you don't care less about a FPS.
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Bob,
Sony also make rather a lot of very professional video production equipment. They seem to be a firm which is separated into fiefdoms, and one of these fiefdoms is games, image sensors is a spinoff, another fiefdom used to be PCs etc. They even own a music subsidiary, Sony Music and a life insurance company, Sony Life which now accounts for 30% of their revenues. I think they're a was-young company that is now slowly evolving into a very japanese thing with some sort of strange category name, I think like zaibatsu or keiretsu or something - Bernard would probably be able to explain better. I'm not so sure they really have a "core business" anymore, although their main focus is probably still electronics and entertainment content. The company as a whole certainly do not care about cameras or sensors, but that fiefdom is now one of the fastest growing and most profitable - and with the many cameras needed for a self-driving car they have found a Bonanza.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Life
Edmund
If you want a Sony then buy a Sony.
Hasselblad make professional cameras and that has always been it's core business.
Sony makes consumer electronics and that is its core business. It used to make the best TVs, used to make the best music players, used to make the best laptops. At the moment it is excited about cameras and probably makes the best sensors, but only if consumers want them and something more profitable does not come along.
If you use a Hasselblad, and understand why, then the X1D looks pretty exciting and you don't care less about a FPS.
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Hi,
Professionals use gear that is suitable for the job.
At this time the X1D comes with two lenses and no ultrawide or telephoto. No shift or tilt right now. It will be able to use H-lenses with an adapter that has not been presented yet. The HTS 1.5 will probably be usable with H-adapter probably or may be. But the X1D will be still a bit limited.
Two hard core professionals whom I know of has switched to Sony A7r (A7rII), Chris Barret and Rainer Viertlböck. They did do that not because it is the greatest camera but because it can do the job and dot it better than the traditional MFD systems.
- http://www.tangential.de
- http://christopherbarrett.net
Why do I say that the A7rII is the main competitor of the X1D? Can you mention an other one?
- A technical camera may fill the bill, but they don't have electronic viewfinder and also lack AF.
- DSLRs tend to be largish.
- I don't think APS-C and micro 4/3 are comparable
- Leica S/SL/M etc may be comparable, but I am not sure. Leica S is a DSLR and the others lack the resolution.
The X1D is smart step forward from Hasselblad, essentially making a small mirrorless camera based on the smallest available MFD sensor from Sony. But the sensor size also takes it closer to the 24x36 competition.
Best regards
Erik
If you want a Sony then buy a Sony.
Hasselblad make professional cameras and that has always been it's core business.
Sony makes consumer electronics and that is its core business. It used to make the best TVs, used to make the best music players, used to make the best laptops. At the moment it is excited about cameras and probably makes the best sensors, but only if consumers want them and something more profitable does not come along.
If you use a Hasselblad, and understand why, then the X1D looks pretty exciting and you don't care less about a FPS.
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I don't really think there's anything to argue here. Of course Hasselblad makes really lovely cameras. That's why I still own a 501cm with 5 lenses. My disappointment with the X1D is only in that it won't replace my Sony. It just can't do the same things for me. I would love to swap the 'Blad onto my Arca and use that for work, but it can't do that. The Sony is, as my mentor said of his Horseman, a "cold, impersonal Japanese camera." I just don't love it. For now, though... for architecture, it get's the job done better than anything else available on the market.
I do really want one of these 'Blads, but I'd also love a CVF50 for my 501 and a Leica SL. None of which will ever make me any money.
God, I'm starting to sound like Cooter.
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I don't really think there's anything to argue here. Of course Hasselblad makes really lovely cameras. That's why I still own a 501cm with 5 lenses. My disappointment with the X1D is only in that it won't replace my Sony. It just can't do the same things for me. I would love to swap the 'Blad onto my Arca and use that for work, but it can't do that. The Sony is, as my mentor said of his Horseman, a "cold, impersonal Japanese camera." I just don't love it. For now, though... for architecture, it get's the job done better than anything else available on the market.
I do really want one of these 'Blads, but I'd also love a CVF50 for my 501 and a Leica SL. None of which will ever make me any money.
God, I'm starting to sound like Cooter.
Although I hate to say that I agree with you and will keep the Sony on my (heavily converted for the job) Sinar P2, I have to say that it is quite early (before we see the complete picture behind the camera) for one to come in early conclusions... If for instance, the X to H lens adapter is a "dummy" one (no electronics involved to translate one interface to the other - the two cameras having the same interface but only on different mounts), then one can use his V lenses on a tech camera with H mount by using the V to H lens adapter and have the V lenses leaf shutter active on his view camera... We have to wait and see what Hassy has planned after the whole picture is complete... No reason to jump in early conclusions yet...
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Hmm,
In old times my dream camera was a Horseman VH-R… and yeah I am shooting Sony A7rII and driving a Toyota RAV 4.
I can agree a bit on the Sony A7rII. It doesn't awake emotions but it does the job. Time to take it for a walk…
Best regards
Erik
I don't really think there's anything to argue here. Of course Hasselblad makes really lovely cameras. That's why I still own a 501cm with 5 lenses. My disappointment with the X1D is only in that it won't replace my Sony. It just can't do the same things for me. I would love to swap the 'Blad onto my Arca and use that for work, but it can't do that. The Sony is, as my mentor said of his Horseman, a "cold, impersonal Japanese camera." I just don't love it. For now, though... for architecture, it get's the job done better than anything else available on the market.
I do really want one of these 'Blads, but I'd also love a CVF50 for my 501 and a Leica SL. None of which will ever make me any money.
God, I'm starting to sound like Cooter.
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Hmm,
In old times my dream camera was a Horseman VH-R…
What's the relevance? If there is something on the particular camera that you feel is worth noting, just make a note on it...
and yeah I am shooting Sony A7rII and driving a Toyota RAV 4.
I drive a focus 1.8 TDI... it doesn't take pictures... does the RAV?
I can agree a bit on the Sony A7rII. It doesn't awake emotions but it does the job. Time to take it for a walk…
It "doesn't awake emotions but it does the job"? ...well put, well put... DO take it for a "walk"... Indeed a very good argument support!
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Yep, it has 4 cameras on board. ;)
Geeeeeee... are they all Sony? ;D
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Erik, I don't own a Leica but what I noticed about them over the Sony is when you pick it up you can use it, the Sony I thought was such a hopless design as a photographic tool it didn't matter what sensor it had I wouldn't want one.
I had two guys on a trade stand trying to show me how you turn off the horizon level thing in the viewfinder, they both failed saying it's possible to set it off as a default.
FFS I just want to take a picture not deliver a bomb down a chimney from a low flying fast jet, for that you don't need all the rubbish Sony seam to think you do in the viewfinder.
Picking up the Leica S was like a breath of fresh air, I think Lerica know the difference between a guy that wants to make pictures and someone that likes to press buttons thinking they are making some creative input. I could find a use for all the products Leica make I would hate to think my camera bag was full of Sony cameras no matter how wonderous the sensor.
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Erik, I don't own a Leica but what I noticed about them over the Sony is when you pick it up you can use it, the Sony I thought was such a hopless design as a photographic tool it didn't matter what sensor it had I wouldn't want one.
I had two guys on a trade stand trying to show me how you turn off the horizon level thing in the viewfinder, they both failed saying it's possible to set it off as a default.
FFS I just want to take a picture not deliver a bomb down a chimney from a low flying fast jet, for that you don't need all the rubbish Sony seam to think you do in the viewfinder.
Picking up the Leica S was like a breath of fresh air, I think Lerica know the difference between a guy that wants to make pictures and someone that likes to press buttons thinking they are making some creative input. I could find a use for all the products Leica make I would hate to think my camera bag was full of Sony cameras no matter how wonderous the sensor.
Kevin... The Sony α7 series of mirrorless cameras is a great tool for one to use on a view camera instead of a digital back and additionally gain a shutter for his lenses and great LV... Not to mention that additionally he can share his MF lenses out of his MF system and thus save a fortune sacrificing the minimum possible than if he would use an MFDB instead... Lets not forget that for this particular task (the use on a view camera) skills are far more important than the image sensor used. It is the major reason on to why it's been most successful among skillful pros and demanding photographers, I bought mine without adding any lens dedicated to the Sony α7, neither is in my future plans to add one... I know many more photographers that do the same...
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The Sony α7 series of mirrorless cameras is a great tool for one to use on a view camera instead of a digital back
Curious as to what type of view camera and what type of lens and focal length you actually do this on?
My experience was that the view camera was designed for a piece of film 5" wide and at the graflex back plane. When I put a DSLR on the back with adaptor there was a huge increase in focal length to accommodate the flange distance plus the adapter. The sensor is also so small that the magnification requires much better lenses and a longer distance. Using a MF back kept the sensor at the same plane but you still lost width, though not as much.
To get around all of this you had to go to something like a Cambo Wide and lenses that cost more than I paid for my Hasselblad.
So, having tried all of film, digital back and non-modular 35mm camera on a view camera I am trying to understand how you actually use a 35mm non modular camera on a view camera and what you can photograph and at what distance.
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Curious as to what type of view camera and what type of lens and focal length you actually do this on?
Having tried all of film, digital back and non-modular 35mm camera on a view camera I am trying to understand how you actually use a 35mm non modular camera on a view camera and what you can photograph and at what distance.
There are a number of cameras you can use the Sony on.... Arcas and Cambo ultima are among the best as well as Sinar P3 dslr... Of course there is the Actus, but I find its movements limiting for serious professional work. Personally, I chose to convert a Sinar P2 and removed its frames completely, then made myself new frames and bellows for it, where the lens frame is of 85mm diameter (so that it is compatible by Novoflex lensboards for the Balpro) and the camera mounting frame is of 72mm internal diameter and of 82mm external diameter. Both those "disc frames" have "L" shape legs in sliding bases so that they can slide back and forth on the standards for one to adjust the entrance pupil of the lens used (despite the lens) and the center of the image area as to be positioned at exactly the center of the tilt arc's circle... I got rid of Sinar's parallel axis system (the new frames are centered on the standards) and of course retained the 12cm radius of the tilt arc. The rear frame (the 72mm internal, 82mm external diameter) allows for the grip of the Sony to be recessed by it.
As for lenses, I bought an inexpensive Contax N to Sony E-mount electronic adapter and used its circuit as to control the aperture of my Contax 645 lenses from the Sony's own aperture control dial (there are two extension cords from the adapter that connect the camera mount to the adapter's PC board and then from the adapter to the Contax mount). To make the camera mount and the Contax 645 lens mount, I sacrificed two extension rings, one for the Sony and the other of the Contax as to use the respective mounts, I've also converted a 24mm T/S lens to Contax mount (it can now be mounted on my Contax 645 bodies too - there was enough space from the rear element as for the mount to be recessed by 17.5mm) and use that too on the converted Sinar P2...
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Hi,
I have picked up a Leica S, too, but I what not impressed at all. It was a bit like my 2008 vintage Alpha 900, but with noisy focusing. But, I cannot judge a camera by picking it up. Need to use it as tool for shooting.
With the Sony there are a lot of viewfinder options, including clean screen. Personally I use the horizon indicator all the time. If you are shooting in dark places an electronic viewfinder can be quite useful. You can cycle between a number of different viewfinder setups using the disp button.
I don't think that Leica S is a direct competitor to the X1D, it is not mirrorless, it is quite heavy and lenses are both heavy and expensive.
Hasselblad's lenses are compact design, giving up on maximum aperture. But there are only two of them right now, with a third coming in September.
If you want a mirrorless camera, there are Leica M9/M (240), Sony A7xx, Leica SL and Hasselblad X1D if we skip over APS-C and 4/3.
EVF -> Sony A7xx, Leica SL, X1D
AF -> Sony A7xx, Leica SL, X1D
> 24 MP -> Sony A7r/A7rII, X1D
> 37 MP -> Sony A7RII, X1D
Why would you buy a mirrorless camera?
- Size (but lenses can be large)
- Silent shooting
- Accurate AF (they use contrast detection)
- Flexible AF (you can put focus point where you need it)
- You can put any lens on it, on this point the X1D lacks flexibility
Best regards
Erik
Erik, I don't own a Leica but what I noticed about them over the Sony is when you pick it up you can use it, the Sony I thought was such a hopless design as a photographic tool it didn't matter what sensor it had I wouldn't want one.
I had two guys on a trade stand trying to show me how you turn off the horizon level thing in the viewfinder, they both failed saying it's possible to set it off as a default.
FFS I just want to take a picture not deliver a bomb down a chimney from a low flying fast jet, for that you don't need all the rubbish Sony seam to think you do in the viewfinder.
Picking up the Leica S was like a breath of fresh air, I think Lerica know the difference between a guy that wants to make pictures and someone that likes to press buttons thinking they are making some creative input. I could find a use for all the products Leica make I would hate to think my camera bag was full of Sony cameras no matter how wonderous the sensor.
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IMO, the Leica S is a very capable camera. The sensor/lens combo is very hard to beat.
But, at 37MP, it is just too weak to consider as a pro system when 50-100MP can be had elsewhere. I don't know where the S fits anymore - it's in limbo where it doesn't cut it in a professional context and is way to expensive to compete with a dSLR.
The X1D is a much better alternative, is not even that much bigger than an M and looks like it has a decent and more certain future ahead of it - something that I think is questionable with the Leica and the S. I even wonder if the M's days are numbered.
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IMO, the Leica S is a very capable camera. The sensor/lens combo is very hard to beat.
But, at 37MP, it is just too weak to consider as a pro system when 50-100MP can be had elsewhere. I don't know where the S fits anymore - it's in limbo where it doesn't cut it in a professional context and is way to expensive to compete with a dSLR.
The X1D is a much better alternative, is not even that much bigger than an M and looks like it has a decent and more certain future ahead of it - something that I think is questionable with the Leica and the S. I even wonder if the M's days are numbered.
IMO, the mp count is the last thing that MF users would care for... The only problem I find with Leica S is its price.... It's clearly much more expensive than X1D and competitive only to the H5D-50c while it doesn't offer a detachable back or the rest of the modularity that the H5D has which in return means that the advanced photographer has restricted tasks to perform with it.
IMO, the Leica S 007 is the perfect alternative for one to abandon his FF DSLR use altogether and share his MF lenses with it... Clearly the existence of OVF matters a lot to DSLR users for certain photographic tasks that can be performed with either a DSLR or an MF camera and the camera offers MF quality and rendering combined with FF DSLR flexibility.... I think the major problem with Leica S is the price... if it was closer to the X1D as to justify the existence of OVF there is (I believe) a lot of room for it...
Clearly I would take the Leica S any day instead of using a complete MF combination for tasks that can be performed with DSLRs.... I'm also sure that no mirrorless can ever replace with the EVF the absence of a real OVF for photographic tasks which require for one to look through the lens.
Mirrorless can be great, but only in cases where one can compose without looking through the finder and then use the EVF as to frame and focus...
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Hi,
My point is that 37 MP is fine for say A1 size prints, and you can certainly print larger, but more pixels may be a good thing for large prints.
More to the issue, Leica said that the lenses are made for at least twice the resolution of the original S2. It may not make great sense to make lenses for say 75 MP (or more) when the sensor cannot handle more than 37 MP. What the sensor will do is to turn the excess resolution into artefacts, unless the photographer uses f/16 (or so) which blurs the image enough to eliminate the artefacts.
It is hard to utilize the full resolution of the lenses, so this may not matter in many cases, but why pay for expensive lenses if thet will not be utilised fully?
I don't think the difference between 50 MP and 37 MP is that great that matters.
But than you also need to consider the costs, say S (typ 007) + 45 + 120 mm lens -> 33k$US, Hasselblad X1D -> around 15k$US.
So the Hasselblad will give you:
- 4/3 crop (if that is an advantage is a question of taste/preferences)
- Less than half the price
- A bit more resolution
- A bit more accurate AF (CDAF is more accurate in general than PDAF)
- AF over most of the image are
- Less noise when shooting handheld
That doesn't make the Leica "worthless" or "unworthy" but it may be more attractive to the buyers whom it is intended for, buyers wanting a small and portable MFD system on a limited budget.
Best regards
Erik
IMO, the Leica S is a very capable camera. The sensor/lens combo is very hard to beat.
But, at 37MP, it is just too weak to consider as a pro system when 50-100MP can be had elsewhere. I don't know where the S fits anymore - it's in limbo where it doesn't cut it in a professional context and is way to expensive to compete with a dSLR.
The X1D is a much better alternative, is not even that much bigger than an M and looks like it has a decent and more certain future ahead of it - something that I think is questionable with the Leica and the S. I even wonder if the M's days are numbered.
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Hi,
My point is that 37 MP is fine for say A1 size prints, and you can certainly print larger, but more pixels may be a good thing for large prints.
Mo
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But than you also need to consider the costs, say S (typ 007) + 45 + 120 mm lens -> 33k$US, Hasselblad X1D -> around 15k$US.
Eric,
The price of the Leica has started to tumble recently, making the comparison a little closer. Leica is realising this and has started to offer deals / trade-ins what they rarely did before. If you shop a bit (or are ready to go for some Mint ones), it will get closer to a 20k (Mint S) -25k (new) vs 15k for the X1D.
Don't get me wrong, I love the X1D, but the X1D is more like a second camera / travel camera to me. The S is rock solid, the S lenses are well build (vs a bit plastic feel for the XCD). The S has a very nice OVF, faster lenses and a very nice feel / weight balance for (DSLR) action shooters.
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My point is that 37 MP is fine for say A1 size prints, and you can certainly print larger, but more pixels may be a good thing for large prints.
This is a subject that has been ended by the makers, sientists and sensor constructors alike ages ago... A print at 72ppi would be a perfect print for all the resolution needed as long as the pixels are of "perfect" quality... for a pixel to behave better (with less noise) size of the pixel is always beneficial for same pixel technology... 72ppi means 9 (nearly 10) pixels printed per square mm of paper size and then viewed at 27cm of distance... It isexactly the same as one trying to view 9 squares of 33cm of side each, packed in one square meter and then viewed from ...270 meters distance!!!!!
The difference to 16 pixels per square millimeter (nearly 90ppi) or 25 pixels per mm (nearly 120ppi), or 36 (6x6) pixels per square mm (nearly 144ppi) wouldn't concern even one with an eagle's eyesight... ;) Let alone the fact that all modern sensors of even APS-C sensors would result in ABSOLUTELY HUGE prints at 144 ppi... Lets get over this childish matter and leave it to DPR forums concern.... :'( With 37.5mp one can print A PERFECT PRINT of 9 feet length at the smaller side of the print..., If only his NORMAL lens can resolve 9 squares of 33cm side each packed in one square meter at 270meters distance! THIS should be much more of one's concern than asking to have 16 squares of 25cm side size each packed in the same square... It takes no Einstein knowledge for one to understand this simple matter... :o
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If I'm not mistaken, the longest exposure time for the S2 is 120 seconds. Since I often do exposures in the 2 minute plus range it makes it useless for me. Not everyone does long exposures but it seems like it would be a requirement for a fair number of users. I do like the feel of the camera but why they have never upgraded the sensor is hard to understand. On the other hand, the X1D long exposure time is 60 minutes (I believe) which is longer than I need but it sure beats 2 minutes. Leica S2 is a fine piece of equipment but it's not keeping up with the times.
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Hi,
What I say is that the X1D is not a direct competitor to the Leica-S.
Right now, it's a s system of it's own.
Best regards
Erik
...
Don't get me wrong, I love the X1D, but the X1D is more like a second camera / travel camera to me. The S is rock solid, the S lenses are well build (vs a bit plastic feel for the XCD). The S has a very nice OVF, faster lenses and a very nice feel / weight balance for (DSLR) action shooters.
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In one breath you say the the Leica S is a very capable camera that is very hard to beat and in the next that it's in limbo and doesn't cut it in a professional context.
Perhaps you are a professional photographer with vast experience of using a Leica S but my problem is I've not a clue who you are or what it is you do other than spout muddled nonsense.
Is it unsurprising we keep losing seasoned pros here?
I would imagine you "keep losing seasoned pros here" because you are so rude and inhospitable, not to mention naive.
You just lost another one.
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I would imagine you "keep losing seasoned pros here" because you are so rude and inhospitable, not to mention naive.
You just lost another one.
Now hang on a minute... I would agree with you that KLaban is (to say it politely) "following an irrelevant to logic support to his arguments".... ;) ...but OTOH, it was you that have set the Leica's S resolution as being a problem for a pro... I must say... you are the first pro I've ever come across that questions 37.5mp of resolution as being ...low !!!! :o ...we pros (are supposed to) know better than that... ;)
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Let alone the fact that all modern sensors of even APS-C sensors would result in ABSOLUTELY HUGE prints at 144 ppi...
I can confirm. My unprofessional Nikon D7000 can print bigger than 80x50 cm (30x20 inches or 2.5x1.5 feet) at 144ppi without any need to scale up the image, and that has only 16MP (which was once high end MFD resolution). What it lacks, compared to MFD sensors, is the per pixel sharpness and microcontrast because is does have a low pass filter.
That being said I've made a 70x30 cm print on canvas recently, and considering that the natural surface texture hides the finest details I could've probably been able to print at 72ppi without noticing any difference, making prints bigger than 1m on the short side very possible (especially when not viewed up close by pixel canvas peepers).
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I can confirm. My unprofessional Nikon D7000 can print bigger than 80x50 cm (30x20 inches or 2.5x1.5 feet) at 144ppi without any need to scale up the image, and that has only 16MP (which was once high end MFD resolution). What it lacks, compared to MFD sensors, is the per pixel sharpness and microcontrast because is does have a low pass filter.
That being said I've made a 70x30 cm print on canvas recently, and considering that the natural surface texture hides the finest details I could've probably been able to print at 72ppi without noticing any difference, making prints bigger than 1m on the short side very possible (especially when not viewed up close by pixel canvas peepers).
Your D7K has (IMO) the best sensor ever out of all APS-C DSLRs ever... If you can print on 72ppi with it or not and have a great print or not, is strictly a matter of the skills and technique when capturing, skills on printing techniques and lens quality... With a Leica S, you can get lens quality out of the equation, you can reduce considerably the skills on printing techniques required and then you are only left with the photographer's skills and the camera, but with the boundaries of the combination limit set much higher up the scale... In fact as high as it can go... ;)
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Resolution means different things to different people.
For a fine art landscape printer, more resolution is good thing, even at smaller print sizes (Oversampling). For a portrait shooter, it's not necessarily going to make things better. In my case, I am more than happy with 40MP for my portrait assignments. But when I do fine art landscape, I definitely would appreciate more.
So yes, I can see a pro like Joe Cornish wanting more pixels but one like Drew Gardner not caring much about it.
Once again, the internet (And particularly, some people) extrapolates the needs of one as the needs of all.
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Now hang on a minute... I would agree with you that KLaban is (to say it politely) "following an irrelevant to logic support to his arguments".... ;) ...but OTOH, it was you that have set the Leica's S resolution as being a problem for a pro... I must say... you are the first pro I've ever come across that questions 37.5mp of resolution as being ...low !!!! :o ...we pros (are supposed to) know better than that... ;)
It is too low.
If a "seasoned pro" invested such a ridiculous amount of money on a 37MP system, they would have to hire 80-100MP when they regularly needed it. A "seasoned pro" does not invest an unfeasibly large amount of money on a system that appears to be dead in the water, that offers less than entry level resolution, and whose resolution is bested by 135 Cameras. The 5DS R's resolution makes a meal of the Leica S at a fraction of the cost. The X1D, will be better again, offering better resolution plus the benefits that a larger sensor offers.
My idea of "seasoned pro" is obviously not the same as yours.
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Too bad bcooter is not posting here anymore, because he would take your definition of seasoned pro and turn it on its head.
Sometimes a pro needs speed, AF accuracy, faster workflow, tougher bodies, video capabilities, low light performance, etc. Resolution is nice, but it's not the only parameter to define a good tool from a bad tool (otherwise the Nikon D5 and Canon 1DX mk. II wouldn't exist at all).
I doubt Leica ever had landscape photographers in mind when it introduced the S. If the Leica S magazine is anything to go by the target is fashion and lifestyle togs.
Ask cooter...
Yep, he did post plenty of times a few samples from a Leica S2 (if I remember correctly), which did have a lot of shadow noise but still managed to take great pictures. Because, you know, it's also about what you shoot.
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Because, you know, it's also about what you shoot.
Wow, imagine that.
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Resolution means different things to different people.
For a fine art landscape printer, more resolution is good thing, even at smaller print sizes (Oversampling).
Over sampling has nothing to do with adding resolution to a print... It is only a method followed by skillful printers as to avoid/hide artifacts and thus maximize print quality... ppis are ppis and dpis are dpis, the two are irrelevant... The first contains A resolution that has been captured, the second is only relevant to the ability of the printer to maximize the information contained on a print (that can not exceed the captured resolution). Captured resolution as long as ppi are equal or more than 72 (for Epson printers) or 75 (for Canon printers) cannot be increased.
The use of upsampling software, is a method followed by skillful printers as to avoid the printer's own upsampling process and thus linearize the print better to the dpi that the printer will use (usually upsampling to 360 ppi for a 1440 dpi print for Epson printers) but recent knowledge of how upsampling process happens on printers have lead to even better results by sampling the print to lower resolutions than the printer's own drivers would...
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It is too low.
If a "seasoned pro" invested such a ridiculous amount of money on a 37MP system, they would have to hire 80-100MP when they regularly needed it. A "seasoned pro" does not invest an unfeasibly large amount of money on a system that appears to be dead in the water, that offers less than entry level resolution, and whose resolution is bested by 135 Cameras. The 5DS R's resolution makes a meal of the Leica S at a fraction of the cost. The X1D, will be better again, offering better resolution plus the benefits that a larger sensor offers.
My idea of "seasoned pro" is obviously not the same as yours.
What "seasoned pro" means beats me... I'm a "pro" fullstop... (not "all time pro" as a "season pro" would call me - which I don't give him the right to do).
Obviously you have nothing to do with a pro as you insist posting on the importance of sensor resolution by not being able to support your argument with some evidence... If you would, you would have argued to my (fully supported) statement back in No 110... You've seen it, but you ignored to comment on it since it by definition lets your unsupported statements stand bold in thin air...
If you dare... argue with that (I remind you it's in No 110)... ;)
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What "seasoned pro" means beats me... I'm a "pro" fullstop... (not "all time pro" as a "season pro" would call me - which I don't give him the right to do).
Obviously you have nothing to do with a pro as you insist posting on the importance of sensor resolution by not being able to support your argument with some evidence... If you would, you would have argued to my (fully supported) statement back in No 110... You've seen it, but you ignored to comment on it since it by definition lets your unsupported statements stand bold in thin air...
If you dare... argue with that (I remind you it's in No 110)... ;)
Your chum KLabland is the one talking "seasoned pro". I have no idea what your "No 110" is and frankly I would rather prize my own teeth out with a butter knife than listen. I have zero need or inclination to justify my needs to someone who types and speaks like someone with the experience of a sixteen year old intern at their local portrait and wedding shop. Shouldn't you be getting back to mopping the floors?
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Or a professional seasoned with some delicious spices. :P
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I have no idea what your "No 110" is...
Obviously... I would suggest you to forget your DPR attitude here... We don't particularly like bold statements or gurus of bold theories... Here is what is written at No 110 in this very discussion...
"This is a subject that has been ended by the makers, sientists and sensor constructors alike ages ago... A print at 72ppi would be a perfect print for all the resolution needed as long as the pixels are of "perfect" quality... for a pixel to behave better (with less noise) size of the pixel is always beneficial for same pixel technology... 72ppi means 9 (nearly 10) pixels printed per square mm of paper size and then viewed at 27cm of distance... It isexactly the same as one trying to view 9 squares of 33cm of side each, packed in one square meter and then viewed from ...270 meters distance!!!!!
The difference to 16 pixels per square millimeter (nearly 90ppi) or 25 pixels per mm (nearly 120ppi), or 36 (6x6) pixels per square mm (nearly 144ppi) wouldn't concern even one with an eagle's eyesight... ;) Let alone the fact that all modern sensors of even APS-C sensors would result in ABSOLUTELY HUGE prints at 144 ppi... Lets get over this childish matter and leave it to DPR forums concern.... :'( With 37.5mp one can print A PERFECT PRINT of 9 feet length at the smaller side of the print..., If only his NORMAL lens can resolve 9 squares of 33cm side each packed in one square meter at 270meters distance! THIS should be much more of one's concern than asking to have 16 squares of 25cm side size each packed in the same square... It takes no Einstein knowledge for one to understand this simple matter... :o "
Now go on and wipe some floors... ;)
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Obviously... I would suggest you to forget your DPR attitude here... We don't particularly like bold statements or gurus of bold theories... Here is what is written at No 110 in this very discussion...
"This is a subject that has been ended by the makers, sientists and sensor constructors alike ages ago... A print at 72ppi would be a perfect print for all the resolution needed as long as the pixels are of "perfect" quality... for a pixel to behave better (with less noise) size of the pixel is always beneficial for same pixel technology... 72ppi means 9 (nearly 10) pixels printed per square mm of paper size and then viewed at 27cm of distance... It isexactly the same as one trying to view 9 squares of 33cm of side each, packed in one square meter and then viewed from ...270 meters distance!!!!!
The difference to 16 pixels per square millimeter (nearly 90ppi) or 25 pixels per mm (nearly 120ppi), or 36 (6x6) pixels per square mm (nearly 144ppi) wouldn't concern even one with an eagle's eyesight... ;) Let alone the fact that all modern sensors of even APS-C sensors would result in ABSOLUTELY HUGE prints at 144 ppi... Lets get over this childish matter and leave it to DPR forums concern.... :'( With 37.5mp one can print A PERFECT PRINT of 9 feet length at the smaller side of the print..., If only his NORMAL lens can resolve 9 squares of 33cm side each packed in one square meter at 270meters distance! THIS should be much more of one's concern than asking to have 16 squares of 25cm side size each packed in the same square... It takes no Einstein knowledge for one to understand this simple matter... :o "
Now go on and wipe some floors... ;)
Nope, pass me the butter knife will ya?
This just exposes how little you know, and how much you rely on the uniformed junk you are reading. Your so called "makers, sientists and sensor constructors" know f-all about the realities of being a working photographer ***today***.
You can continue believing and proliferating all the garbage all you like, but while your naivety is as thoroughly entertaining as it is, the novelty has just worn off.
Enjoy your mopping kid-o!
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I would imagine you "keep losing seasoned pros here" because you are so rude and inhospitable, not to mention naive.
You just lost another one.
See... you are wrong! Clowns stay! ...they always do!
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Please. This has got to stop.
Kevin and Chris do a great job of allowing freedom of thought covering it with a light hand, so it's no fault of the owners of this site.
Given that, posting here is getting impossible given the level and intent of a few select people.
Other than gaining attention from a few hundred people, I don't see the purpose and I won't speculate, because I'm not a psychologist.
From my side, it's easy to get drawn in to negativity and respond, especially when the subjects I photograph are attacked. I hate that I get drawn in and yes it makes me want to leave.
It's just not worth hurting someone that has nothing to do with the discourse for any reason. If this noise stopped, a lot more excellent photographers would be more inclined to post.
We all have agendas, all very personal. I use a lot of cameras, for different reasons and pay little attention to what other's use.
Guy Bourdin used old nikons that the lens glass rattled and he produced some of the world's most iconic photography for French Vogue, usually on a shoestring budget.
One of the most creative photographers I've known had an old Nikon that was broken so to set the exposure he would frame, take the lens off, set the shutter, put the lens back on and shoot.
He couldn't afford to get it fixed and he was so used to the issue it never concerned him.
With the Leica S2 I don't use it most of the time, but I do like it. Under low light with tungsten it produces noise. I could kill the noise, chose to enhance it, as I wanted a somewhat retro theme to a modern Johnny and June.
It was my choice and It was accepted for editorial and life goes on, but it's not that there is anything wrong with the camera.
I wish there was a higher level of respect for each other and much less negativity. Cameras mean a lot to some people, to other's their just a small part of the project, but anyones choice is just that, it's their choice.
You know Michael and Kevin used all formats. Obviously their goal was to test and write articles, but in reality they love(d) photography and their real goal was to produce something compelling.
You could notice in their interviews they gave strong opinions, while trying to be positive. We could all learn from that.
Leica S2
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/rockers_2_leica_contax.jpg)
IMO
BC
P.S. In regards to the old RG forums, they were nothing like this situation. It was a long time ago, but most of us left by our own choosing due to a heavy hand of moderation.
It was the owner's of that site right as they owned it but once it became uncomfortable, people left.
Regardless of whether I post here again or not, please don't let a few people do the same here.
In fact all should try to make it more positive, so more interesting artists that actually show photographs will come back.
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Well said James, this is indeed annoying. Cheers!
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Various members above and elsewhere are banned from posting for a while. I do not enjoy this. Perhaps we can all get on with our lives and do some work?
Remember this is someone else's house - not yours. If you might be cautious about rubbish talk around the dinner table at a friend's, so be it here.
Your host asks the incautious & intemperate to chill out for a while.
Chris
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Chris - Couldn't agree more. Not sure why things get this way or why it seems it is so easy to turn things so negative. Chir and I would like this to a forum where members feel at home regardless if they don't agree. I think Chris said it best. Some folks deserved a time out.
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Mods, as the OP please lock this topic.
My intent to separate chatter on medium format gear from folks who have placed a hand on a X1D has failed.