Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Ben Rubinstein on June 05, 2006, 04:58:10 pm
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Will this be the first DSLR to have a decent screen, one that can be used outside even in bright conditions? According to DPReview it will use the Sony anti reflective screen.
About bleeding time! Utterly rediculous that it's taken so long.
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Can't wait to get my mitts on it. Then my KM 7D will be relegated to backup. Since the Alpha 100 is based on the 5D, I expect the "200" will be based on the 7D. I was surprised they haven't gone to a 3" screen with a live histogram but maybe they are saving some features for the step up dSLR. One feature not noted is MLU but I suspect it is hidden in the 2 second delay as in K-M's. The anti-static coating with dust shake may make my Arctic Butterfly redundant.
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Good competition is always valuable. This Sony move might shake up Canon and Nikon to produce better products, which is good for all of us, no matter which we choose.
Graeme
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Meanwhile, as brands disappear we get less and less choice, and more and more risk of kartels.
Both bad for us.
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I was surprised they haven't gone to a 3" screen with a live histogram ...
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A live histogram requires a live video output from the sensor, which Sony does not seem to have in its SLR sensors yet, though I can imagine it coming soon. The sensor for the R1 does have "video viewfinder" ability and is only sightly smaller than the A100's sensor, but it also seems to have worse noise than the D2X sensor despite both being CMOS with the same photosite spacing of 5.5 microns. So maybe a video VF still comes at a cost in image quality, at least for Sony.
Likewise, a bigger LCD will probably make more sense when the LCD functions as a video viewfinder.
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No doubt about it! Having read the pre-reviews of the pre-introduction version of the Sony Alpha A100, I will be soon switching to Sony. But, not quite yet.
First, I want a camera body that uses memory-sticks not CF cards!
I also would like the name changed to something that fits in with other Sony names and is more snappy like "PhotoMan".
Also, since photo files are getting bigger and bigger, how about some type of blue-ray read/write system for storing the images and bypassing memory cards (oops! I mean memory sticks!). OK, skip my first demand and go right to blue-ray storage on the DSLR. Let's stop fooling around with half measures.
Finally, like most photographers, I don't like the idea of my digital images being stolen from me and used without my permission. Perhaps Sony could put some type of copy protection scheme into their raw file processing software that would keep others from making unauthorized copies of my work. I hear they already do that with music.
Yup, all you folks who spent big $$$'s switching from Nikon to Canon, you can now spend more money switching to Sony. You suckers who kept the KM equipment when all others abandoned ship, should be might happy campers about now.
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I'm not sure what to make of the previous post. Is it tongue-in-cheek sarcasm or delight that Sony as introduced renewed competition in the dSLR market? It doesn't help to move the discussion forward. Let's concentrate on the positives but not forget mistakes made in corporate policy by Sony. For instance, in his review of the R-1, Michael positively gushed over the lens. That same lens is slated for release in September (although at a price that exceeds the R-1) thus creating a great travel camera capable of providing high quality pictures.
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I'm not sure what to make of the previous post. Is it tongue-in-cheek sarcasm or delight that Sony as introduced renewed competition in the dSLR market?
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It must be serious. By the Inviolable Rules of Internet Communication, if it were tongue-in-cheek it would have to contain at least one smiley.
No smiley, ergo not tongue-in-cheek.
E.
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I'm not too fond of a Sony branded DSLR. I will be uneasy to use it, and people might think I'm cool or uncool because of it.
But it'll be a while till Sony will catch up to the other actual camera manufacturers.
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I'm not sure what to make of the previous post. Is it tongue-in-cheek sarcasm
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Definetly meant to be humorous.
On a more serious note, I am glad that the KM owners have new options. And the competition will only help. I do wonder if Sony will really fully compete with Nikon and Canon, or if they will be more like an Olympus. Developing a full system that is useful for pros and serious amatuers is an awfully big task.
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Sony has deep enough pockets to compete but only time will tell their intentions. We'll get a preview when they introduce the second dSLR this summer (as per their earlier blurbs). If the A100 is intended as the entry level camera, they have at least 2 options - base the next unit on the K-M 7D or following the Maxxum series build to the standards of the pro grade 9. Of course they could come out with an entirely new Sony unit but I don't think they've had enough time for the R&D. No one knows their business model. Is it just to get volume sales or to get a flagship model out? The local advertising in Toronto seems to indicate that they are trying to drive sales of lower end models by pointing out that they produce the A100 with all its technological advances.
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Sony has deep enough pockets to compete but only time will tell their intentions.
That's definately not true, Sony is stricken.
link (http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/30/magazines/fortune/sonyPS3_greatteams_fortune/)
link (http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/26/news/newsmakers/stringer_greatteams_fortune/index.htm)
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Sony has deep enough pockets to compete but only time will tell their intentions. We'll get a preview when they introduce the second dSLR this summer (as per their earlier blurbs).
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I think it will take more than another body, no matter how advanced, to make Sony a real player in the minds of pros and enthusiast amateurs. It takes a system. Now, if Sony develeloped a flash system as good as Nikon, a lens system as good as Canon, that would be different. But, I really doubt if they are going to produce many 600mm telephotos, 200-400mm f/4 zooms, micro-photography flashes, and tilt-n-shift lenses.
Of course, I could be wrong
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I wonder what kind of commitment Sony has to this market. Even if the one body they have announced is great they still only have one body. They claim a desire to gain a big part of the market. What happens when they don't get that? Do they muddle along or do they pack it in? I think that is the interesting question.
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Even if the one body they have announced is great they still only have one body.
Check the Sony site or the Sony online shop for their system. With the body, they announced 20 lenses. 6 or so to be released with the camera, the rest later this year. Including Zeiss lenses and things like the famous STF. Further, they continue a bunch of accessories like flashes, remotes ad stuff. More lenses planned for next year, and further bodies in the $2000+ region. It's way more than only one body, what has been anounced.
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As DSLR's seem to be where the money is I am sure that Sony want to make a good impression and become a serious player. By serious I mean challenging Canon.. forget even Nikon! This will take time, but as an electronic goods company they are in great shape to compete with the rapid lifecycle of DSLR's these days, especially Canon. Add to that the fact that Sony also makes it's own chips and together with the KM platform they have a winning recipe. However to win they must really listen to consumers, and see what the others aren't offering. Canon for all it's might is still missing the damn MLU button, so I would suggest to Sony to offer it sooner rather than later. Nikon seems to be offering everything (including pro level consumer cameras such as D200) except a full frame sensor.. and seeing as Sony is committed to continuing some of KM's lenses, which are optimised for 36x24mm film.. I would venture that Sony will eventually bring out a full frame body...
In my mind Sony has been shopping for an SLR body for a while.. perhaps toying with Nikon (for example joint product development for the DSLR sensors) but finally opting for KM which by buying it outright now controls completely. Obviously as a company the size of Canon (a behomoth) it will want to seriously compete. Whether it will go all-out into the professional segment is the big question. I doubt it, at least in the short term, but this will not preclude the production of "professional level bodies".
What does this mean? Well, both Canon and Nikon assure their pros extra service, such as lens loans and urgent repair services. I doubt Sony will be interested in as much... BUT as serious amateurs probably account for more sales of "pro" gear, Sony may aim their products at them.. This will mean a cheaper product with as good quality.. or better.
As for assuring a product line Sony seems determined to appear serious. Their initial lens selection, a high quality DSLR "consumer" camera, and an integrated selection of accessories mean they are here to stay, whatever the big boys may wish to think. You have seen the tip of the iceberg.. a lot more has yet to come (no, I don't work for Sony.. my crystal ball just seems very clear at the moment).
HOWEVER the product roll-out of a new DSLR lineup will take time, at least a few years, as it gains market share and getS people onto the product upgrade cycle (like Canon). so be patient..
Overall.. a serious player with pretty serious products..
just don't hold your breath for a Full Frame quite yet..
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Most interesting to me is the fact that Sony can offer a body and kit lens with this level of performance at the sub $1000 level. Bodes well for those of us waiting to buy.
Nikon, are you listening? Your D200 offers equivalent performance at more than TWICE the price.
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Nikon, are you listening? Your D200 offers equivalent performance at more than TWICE the price.
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It doesn't. The D200 has 'minor' extras such as a mirror lock up, 5fps, a magnesium frame .... and so on.
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It doesn't. The D200 has 'minor' extras such as a mirror lock up, 5fps, a magnesium frame .... and so on.
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OK, I shoulda said "image performance".
Mirror lockup may be a part of the self timer function.
fps on the Sony remains to be seen. For most users and especially landscape photographers, this is a non-issue. Sports guys, please ignore.
At that price, a magnesium body I can do without.
My Nikon 70-200 VR extends my photographic chops significantly. Having anti-shake on ALL my lenses is very tempting.
Not that I'm seriously thinking of jumping the Nikon ship yet, but I do think it points out where we're heading. Lower cost, higher performance. In BIG leaps. Gotta love it.
Peter
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Its def interesting! I have a KM5D, and welcome the fact that the a mount continues. I am no sony fan though..but little choice.
I am a little alarmed at the high ISO samples (1600), they dont seem so great. But its too early to say really.
What is a concern for the market its aimed at (entry level), is the £599 with a lens price, and £499 without. Not that this is expensive, it seems that with uk prices for the Canon EOS 350, and Nikon D50, both with lenses are about £470 and £370..
Seems odd to me that they are priced a fair bit above the competition. I estimated about £499 with a lens.
DR stuff looks interesting, super fine jpeg missing is not good, not sure about the ISO button moving to the dial either. still overall looks pretty good, anti dust too. I dont think it will challenge the C&N cameras a lot, unless they price it at a similar level.
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I got a chance to handle this camera on Sunday. Sony had a booth setup at the Spruce Meadows Masters this weekend. I've got to say, that this looks like a real slick camera. Was a bit too small for my taste, but the wife loved it (she especially loved the eye start AF focus - again not really for my taste).
AF seemed pretty fast, and while i didn't take any shots, was impressed with the build quality of the lenses - especially compared aganist Canon's consumer grade lenses.
THe pricing was also competitive to the Rebel XT in Canada, but the Sony seems to be a much slicker camera, with much better lenses (I'm not comparing the built quaility of Canon's L lenses, but Canon's regular consumer lenses).
The guy working the stall new nothing about photography but really empasized the zeiss lineup. Be interesting to see the test reports on these lenses when they are out. The brouchure also had a pretty solid lineup - 24-70 F2.8, 70-200 F2.8 and either a 17-35F2.8 or a 16-35F2.8. So they do have a pro/advanced amatuer oriented offereing.
For myself, i'm hoping this will lead to further price reductions.
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Most interesting to me is the fact that Sony can offer a body and kit lens with this level of performance at the sub $1000 level.
The D200 sells for $1700. Just compare EOS 300D vs. 10D or 350D vs. 20D at introduction date. The body of the A100 is really cheap, it's like a $600 Maxxum 5D.
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OK, I shoulda said "image performance".
Mirror lockup may be a part of the self timer function.
fps on the Sony remains to be seen. For most users and especially landscape photographers, this is a non-issue. Sports guys, please ignore.
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fps does not remain to be seen; it is 3fps. Other feature differences are also clear.
I find it strange that some people now believe that the only difference between SLR's justifying different prices is the sensor, and in this case only the size and pixel count, since that is about all we know for sure about the A100's sensor (it is not necessarily the same as the one in the D100: Canon makes two 8MP sensors for the 350D and 20D, but that does not make 20D/30D overpriced compared to the 350D.)
35mm film SLRs vary greatly in price despite all using the same "sensors", so clearly there are lots of reasons why two 10MP 16x24mm format digital SLR's could be worth very different prices.
Another recent example: the 350D vs 30D, both with 8MP sensors.
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fps does not remain to be seen; it is 3fps.
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Other feature differences are also clear.
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I find it strange that some people now believe that the only difference between SLR's justifying different prices is the sensor,
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3 fps, eh? Guess I should read more carefully. In any case, 3fps is pretty darn fast. Is that rate quoted shooting RAW? or JPG?
I assume (since I read it on the Internet ) that the sensor is the same as that in the Nikon D200.
Going out on a self-justifying limb here, but...
To me a camera is basically two things: image quality and viewfinder clarity. The rest is just support stuff. Ease-of-use and ergonomics are a not-too-distant third. Given the product cycle/lifespan of these DSLR things, I'll take lower build quality and lower price over tank-like construction, IF other things remain equal.
Even though I earn money with them, I don't depend on these purchases for my living. If I did, I'm still not sure I'd opt for the higher-priced spread. Cheaper unit cost means I can afford more redundancy. If you'r'e going to Antarctica on a ship, which would you prefer - one D200 or two Sonys?
Peter
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3 fps, eh? Guess I should read more carefully. In any case, 3fps is pretty darn fast. Is that rate quoted shooting RAW? or JPG?
Peter
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Phil has the specs, some sample shots, and some casual observations on DPR. In particular he talks about the viewfinder.
You should find the link on the front page. If not, go Cameras->Sony->A100->Preview
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To me a camera is basically two things: image quality and viewfinder clarity.
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Maybe for you; in which case you probably had no need to go beyond a mid-prices amateur 35mm film SLR with a decent VF and loaded with good film. Clearly many photographers found reasons to pay significantly higher prices for improvements in other aspects of film SLR's, so surely you should be open to the idea that the extra cost of the D200 is justified to its intended customers by feature advantages.
P. S. The lower frame rate is one hint that the A100 might use a different less expensive sensor; getting 5fps from the D200 requires four channel read-out, otherwise used only in more expensive DSLR models. Also, Sony has apparently said in an recent interview that the sensor for the A100 is a new design.
My guess: a new Nikon with the A100 sensor to replace the D70s, later this year.
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BJL,Jun 14 2006, 10:26 AM]
surely you should be open to the idea that the extra cost of the D200 is justified to its intended customers by feature advantages.
Absolutely. Just (maybe) not for me. I'm taking this stance based on how quickly I've needed to upgrade my digital cameras in the past. Lightweight body construction never has time to present problems. I've passed them on to other family members long before they wear out.
P. S. The lower frame rate is one hint that the A100 might use a different less expensive sensor; getting 5fps from the D200 requires four channel read-out, otherwise used only in more expensive DSLR models. Also, Sony has apparently said in an recent interview that the sensor for the A100 is a new design.
Several good points that I wasn't aware of. Thanks for keeping me up to date.
BJL: My guess: a new Nikon with the A100 sensor to replace the D70s, later this year.
Good. My D70 is getting old. Not worn out, just old. Kinda like me. Besides, its viewfinder is apalling.
Peter
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On viewfinders...nobody is going to be so unwise as to suggest the Alpha's VF is near the D200...its the same as the KM5D (which I have), however compared to the D50, EOS 350, its miles better...and it crushes the E-500 to bits! Though the pentax cams are very good also. The D70 is the same as the D50...I believe..hence its a bit small ish! not great..
I think a VF is pretty important myself. The single reason I rejected the Oly (even though I have Oly stuff), is that damn terrible VF....its a disgrace.
The D200 has a lot going for it build, handling wise, and seals etc..and the VF is damn good!
However uk pricing suggests £700 for the Alpha and kit lens...way above the Canon and Nikon stuff...almost entering into 30D land..not far off..strange move from sony on that one! I am sure the 10.2mp will sell it for the megapixel freaks though...
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On viewfinders...nobody is going to be so unwise as to suggest the Alpha's VF is near the D200...its the same as the KM5D (which I have), however compared to the D50, EOS 350, its miles better...and it crushes the E-500 to bits![a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=68279\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
VF mag. is one place that Pentax has taken the high ground compared to K-M/Sony in particular. The first realistic goal for Sony is to catch up with #4 Pentax/Samsung, who I see still ahead for now: they are getting a 10MP sensor (the same Sony one?) have now got SR to match, and cover a wider variety of models and price levels.