Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: fattkid on July 01, 2016, 11:02:08 pm
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Hey folks,
New guy here. Been shooting for the last 2 years or so, and I just got my first printer - a Canon IPF8400.
A little info - I do fine art landscapes pretty much, and I have intentions of selling my work at Art fairs and galleries. I have a BenQ 2700 monitor, calibrated by a professional, 10 bit workflow, processing in LR and PS.
I have been doing my homework as best as I can, but I have a lot to learn etc. Can anyone point me to any sort of instructional videos, books, online resources, forums etc. to help one ramp up on printing, printing with IPF printers in particular, types and uses of paper, matting images, printing on canvas, selling at fairs or galleries, etc.
I have a few books by Jeff Schewe and Alain Briot etc. Been watching the vids on this site. Surfing youtube.
So if anyone has any suggestions on learning resources, it would be much appreciated.
-Tevor
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Colour or B&W, and I assume that you mean 16 bit, not 10.
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If you don't already have a copy, The Digital Print by Jeff Schewe.
Has all you need.
Paul C
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Hey Jeff - Color is what I am focusing on right now. As for the "10 bit" thing - It's in regards to 10 instead of the normal 8 bit output from a video card to a monitor - so one can view a slightly higher fidelity image on a higher fidelity monitor - not sure exactly the technicalities of it - that's my unde4rstanding of it.
From the BenQ website -
10-bit Display for Precision Color-Reproduction
Enjoy the smoothest shading and color transitions in natural gradations on a 10-bit display. A 10-bit display can produce more than one billion colors to guarantee the silkiest, smoothest gradations.
Otherwise, the monitor is 14 bit. - "The 14-bit 3D Look Up Table (LUT) improves RGB color blending accuracy"
That's my understanding of all of it anyway.
Paul - I read that book like 8 months ago when I first started thinking about getting into printing. Time to read it again. Thank you sir.
-Trevor
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I would be inclined to get a couple of sample packs of Canson, Hahnemuhle and Ilford so that you can see what the surface of the papers are like. You will get no shortage of opinions on papers. It comes down to what appeals to you. I rarely use gloss papers these days but that's just me. Different papers have different characteristics, Dmax etc. Make sure that your paper has profiles for your printer. You can also learn a lot via soft proofing with various profiles before even putting paper in your printer.
I also know nothing about Benq monitors, but I hope that you can store different configurations to use with them. I have a standard D50, 85CD one for soft proofing, and a D65 for normal viewing.
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The Digital Fine Art print Book
http://www.imagescience.com.au/pages/The-Digital-Fine-Print-Book.html
If you feel like spending a week on the Great Barrier Reef then go on Les Walkling's Orpheus Island workshop.
10 bit refers to monitors.
16 bit to colour depth.
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I've reviewed all the iPF printers over the last few years and have a lot of general usage info in the reviews that might be of some help?
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/printer/canon_ipf6450-pt1.html
As an aside...
I've also reviewed the 2700 monitor and noted with some alarm, your comment that you'd had it "calibrated by a professional" ...
Basically get some kit and do it yourself - the free BenQ software is easy to use and supports many calibrator devices.
It's a personal bugbear of mine but I'd feel bad (dishonest almost) taking money off someone to calibrate a monitor. I regularly get asked and tell people to spend a bit (I don't sell kit at all) and do it themselves since it's hardly a difficult task, and if you do it as often as you should, you'll save money before long. Indeed I've suggested people give anyone trying to sell them a 'monitor calibration service' a wide berth...
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+1 Jeff Schewe's book.
The From Capture to Print video series on this site is an excellent overview touching broadly on important topics you'll need to know.
Equipment is important. An NEC or Eizo monitor, or at least one of the fancy Dell ones. Color profiling your monitor (you should learn to do it yourself it's not that hard), soft proofing and ICC print profiles are important.
In the end, there's sadly no substitute for trial and error. I thought I could research my way around that at first and that certainly helped, but there's way too many idiosyncrasies about all the software and equipment you use in your workflow -- so many details that no one could hope to efficiently cover in any video, book (or even manufacturers manuals). Buy A4 or Letter sized versions of the papers you want to use to test on and later A2/17x22 sheets when you gain more confidence. Print, research why it turned out that way. Print again, research why. Print, research until you gain confidence what you see on screen is predictable and the closest you can get to what comes out of the machine.
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I am in the same situation, with a twist. I prefer Capture One to LR, and while I have taken an introductory course in Photoshop, I am trying to avoid an Adobe work flow for printing.
This goes against the dominant sources of advice like Jeff Schewe's book and many on this forum who tend to use Adobe products. Still, I too would be grateful for resources on printing - using Capture One.
F.
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Use a printing programme for printing. You will never look back.
There are many good ones. I use Mirage Print.
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I use C1 and avoid LR. For colour printing, I use Mirage and for B&W, QTR.
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Whilst I can appreciate the desire to not use Adobe solutions, I'd just note that in terms of workflow, I find that C1 (and DxO) don't produce files in what I'd regard as a print ready state for large prints. I don't regard Lightroom as a solution in this respect either. They may be fine for small prints, but you don't buy a 44" printer for 8x10's
Affinity Photo is a solution I'd consider if I wanted to remove an Adobe stage in my printing - many of the techniques in the 'standard books' are applicable to it.
For print software, the OP said they had a Canon large format printer, so QTR is not a printing option. For B&W you might look at True B&W (which has a number of updates on the way I believe).
In terms of printing one's work, I'd say buying an 8400 as a first printer is, shall we say, a 'brave' decision... (just make sure it gets used every week)
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Hey folks,
New guy here. Been shooting for the last 2 years or so, and I just got my first printer - a Canon IPF8400.
A little info - I do fine art landscapes pretty much, and I have intentions of selling my work at Art fairs and galleries. I have a BenQ 2700 monitor, calibrated by a professional, 10 bit workflow, processing in LR and PS.
I have been doing my homework as best as I can, but I have a lot to learn etc. Can anyone point me to any sort of instructional videos, books, online resources, forums etc. to help one ramp up on printing, printing with IPF printers in particular, types and uses of paper, matting images, printing on canvas, selling at fairs or galleries, etc.
I have a few books by Jeff Schewe and Alain Briot etc. Been watching the vids on this site. Surfing youtube.
So if anyone has any suggestions on learning resources, it would be much appreciated.
I don't know if you can spare the time or the money (though some might argue that it's pay me now or pay me later in ink, paper, and lost sales), but there's no substitute for hands-on training. John Paul Caponigro and Steve Johnson both have good printing workshops, but my top recommendation would be Charlie Cramer:
http://www.charlescramer.com/classes.html
Jim
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I wonder about workshops. That's a ton of money. And, really, how good can the editing stations be? To accommodate a decent sized class, one would need to provide a room with a lot of powerful computers and very good monitors. Then I read that one should bring a decent laptop to do one's work on, because, obviously, they're warning you that you won't get a seat at the Macpro. Uh, no. Laptops are ok for field work and storage, but not printing prep.
For that kind of money, one could buy whatever library of books about printing that is out there, plenty of paper and ink, and learn the craft how one would really learn it in the end - pumping out a lot of prints. And have a lot left over to save for new equipment.
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I wonder about workshops. That's a ton of money. And, really, how good can the editing stations be? To accommodate a decent sized class, one would need to provide a room with a lot of powerful computers and very good monitors. Then I read that one should bring a decent laptop to do one's work on, because, obviously, they're warning you that you won't get a seat at the Macpro. Uh, no. Laptops are ok for field work and storage, but not printing prep.
For that kind of money, one could buy whatever library of books about printing that is out there, plenty of paper and ink, and learn the craft how one would really learn it in the end - pumping out a lot of prints. And have a lot left over to save for new equipment.
What is your time worth?
I've attended printing workshops taught by Charlie, by Mac Holbert (who doesn't do that anymore, I think, since he left Nash Editions), and by Stephen Johnson. I've gotten a lot out of each. And I've been making digital prints since the early 1990s, and large carriage inkjet prints since the month the Epson Stylus Pro 9000 was introduced in, what, 1998?
The first digital printer I calibrated was the Dupont 4Cast, in the early 90s. Two other engineers and I defined all the color transformations, made all the measurements, and wrote all the calibration software ourselves.
Even with all that experience, I learned from three workshops on printing.
Jim
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A 10-bit display can produce more than one billion colors to guarantee the silkiest, smoothest gradations.
A bit OT but no it can't. It can produce billions of device values. There's a huge difference in encoding data to produce billions of numbers versus colors!
http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorNumbersColorGamut.pdf (http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorNumbersColorGamut.pdf)
This big number game is more marketing than anything else. Yes, high bit data for editing, to avoid rounding errors is useful! We human's can't even see 16.4 million colors. We humans can easily slice up the data, using numbers, to produce 16.7 million values (or more). A high bit display and/or display path is kind of useful to know that IF you see banding, it's in the image data not the preview data.
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I've attended printing workshops taught by Charlie, by Mac Holbert (who doesn't do that anymore, I think, since he left Nash Editions), and by Stephen Johnson. I've gotten a lot out of each. And I've been making digital prints since the early 1990s, and large carriage inkjet prints since the month the Epson Stylus Pro 9000 was introduced in, what, 1998?
The first digital printer I calibrated was the Dupont 4Cast, in the early 90s. Two other engineers and I defined all the color transformations, made all the measurements, and wrote all the calibration software ourselves.
Even with all that experience, I learned from three workshops on printing.
You learned from the best in the buz! Mac is an amazing instructor and printer. FWIW, my first digital printer was a Kodak XL-7700 back in 1993 or so. Bought it used for $10K.
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I wonder about workshops.
Which one's have you attended and who instructed them? That kind of makes a difference.... ;)
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Alright, sir, I'll drop about ten grand to sample a bunch of these workshops, and get back to you about all that, if life experience is what you want. That's a little like Scientology, though, if you think about it. You know, you're never good enough. Write another check.
Actually, I've been to the workshop of life, working around the development of very accurate what you see is what you get translations from monitor to proof to press for millions of magazines. And, I got paid a nice wage for the experience. Now, I'm living off the pension. Maybe I'll start a workshop.
I still don't get how good an education in printing can be if one is told to bring their laptop to edit and soft proof.
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Alright, sir, I'll drop about ten grand to sample a bunch of these workshops, and get back to you about all that, if life experience is what you want.
It appears sir, you've taken none. Based on the dollar figures you speak of, or the lack of an answer to a simple question: Which one's have you attended and who instructed them? That you have formed this opinion with zero experience, unless you state otherwise, with such a strong anti opinion of workshops, speaks volumes that other's here should take note of.
Actually, I've been to the workshop of life, working around the development of very accurate what you see is what you get translations from monitor to proof to press for millions of magazines.
So you're telling us you have no experience making your own prints. Maybe I'll start a workshop.
I'm certain you feel qualified to do so. Other's here?
"The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about". -Wayne Dye
I still don't get how good an education in printing can be if one is told to bring their laptop to edit and soft proof.
Leave it at that.... ;)
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Listen, dude, for the best between us and the rest of the people here, I'm putting you on ignore. I do not want to deal with your provocations anymore. Life is too short. Have fun with your life, but, really, learn to play better with others. It's better for your health.
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THere's a bit of "Ballard Street" around here now and then. Quite harmless.
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I still don't get how good an education in printing can be if one is told to bring their laptop to edit and soft proof.
Hum, as long as you have the tools, it doesn't matter how good they are, you can still learn to use them and thus advance your knowledge and experience. Do you need a race car to learn how to drive? No...and editing and soft proofing on a laptop is completely doable assuming you have a profiled display (yes, you CAN profile a laptop) Photoshop and/or Lightroom, decent printer profiles and a printer with ink & paper.
The whole purpose of a workshop is to learn not just to use expensive equipment. I teach high end workshops and my attendees don't complain about using their own equipment because I teach them how to do what they want to learn–assuming one wants to actually learn rather than pontificate.
As far as ignoring Andrew, your choice but then you won't learn what he can teach you...assuming you want to learn, do you?
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Charlie Cramer (new excellent Yosemite book just released by the way, http://www.triplekite.co.uk/book-shop/charles-cramer-yosemite/), is among the best teachers I've known. I've done a lot of workshops in my day. We can all learn from one another, but learning from experts, eg Cramer, Schewe, and others, is a bonus.
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Which one's have you attended and who instructed them? That kind of makes a difference.... ;)
Andrew, indeed, I had the pleasure of attending a couple of the Epson Print Academy workshops back when it was around and you, Jeff, J.P., and Mac where instructors. Very informative and entertaining (both during and after), I learned a lot that I still apply today.
Cheers,
Dave
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Hum, as long as you have the tools, it doesn't matter how good they are, you can still learn to use them and thus advance your knowledge and experience. Do you need a race car to learn how to drive? No...and editing and soft proofing on a laptop is completely doable assuming you have a profiled display (yes, you CAN profile a laptop) Photoshop and/or Lightroom, decent printer profiles and a printer with ink & paper.
The whole purpose of a workshop is to learn not just to use expensive equipment. I teach high end workshops and my attendees don't complain about using their own equipment because I teach them how to do what they want to learn–assuming one wants to actually learn rather than pontificate.
As far as ignoring Andrew, your choice but then you won't learn what he can teach you...assuming you want to learn, do you?
Ok, now I'm confused. From your well marked and dog eared book in my condo: "Using a cheap commodity priced display is not doing your image evaluating any favors." (Page 69, paperback), and, a little further down the line, "I don't make any accurate color determination while I'm in the field on a laptop..." (Page 70). So, which is it? I still prefer to believe that the seven thousand dollars I've spent on a new Macpro and Eizo, housed in a dark, grey room with controlled lighting (which, in real estate terms, is another large expense in my neighborhood) is the way to go. Now, suddenly, I'm told that a laptop used for image evaluation and editing is comparable? Jeez, it's hard enough to get it right with what I have. I can't imagine the difficulty of trying to do subtle corrections with a laptop in some improvised classroom for the four days or whatever of some seminar.
Listen, I think I'm pretty aware of the economics of the whole workshop industry. It seems that, with the horrible disruption of the whole business of photography, workshops, or seminars, are now a or maybe the major source of cash flow for many, including the best. Now, to me, it seems almost impossible these days to maintain a proper educational printing lab that is profitable, because it requires a very well developed space filled with a lot of very expensive equipment that has to be properly maintained and updated. I've been asked twice in the last few years to help establish classes for Photoshop, but when I lay out the bottom line, that idea fizzles. And, no, they're not coming to my home. So, a compromise is made, and it's "bring your laptop". I understand, that's the only real viable way to do that. But, no way I'm spending that kind of money to travel a few thousand miles to do it wrong, the way I see it. (Btw, I don't even own a laptop! I backup my images when travelling, and save any sort of work for home. I own an IPad mini for travel) No, I'll sit here with your book, in my expensive print room, spend half a workshop's cost (just the workshop! Don't get me going on travel expenses.) on ink, the other half on paper, and figure it out myself. I'm not rich, and I'm not operating a business that can write that trip off as a tax deduction, so, this is my best bet, I hope. I mean, when I first stated learning Photoshop many many moons ago, I had a few awful experiences, and my employer was picking up the fee! Like, walk out of a classroom after five sessions, and think, that was a waste of time, there's gotta be a better way. And these were accredited institutions in the middle of Manhattan! So, I buckled down with Adobe literature first, and then more "advanced" and nuanced literature, and learned much better, at my own pace. It turned out Ok. It's even better today, with essentially free knowledge everywhere on the internet, if you know how to find it. This forum is one. Thanks to this forum.
Not trying to be a jerk here. My funds are limited. If I'm going to travel, I'd rather save it for a few weeks or more around Tuscany or our national parks. Or, ink. Damn ink is expensive. Oh, and a new camera. Always need a new camera. And a new lens. And.......
Thanks for the book.
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Oh, and a new camera. Always need a new camera. And a new lens. And.......
Love to see some examples of your photography. You were asked before FWIW.
Oh and here's how students work with laptops and soft proofing at the workshop's I've taught; we have a reference display system HOOKED UP to the printer being used for soft proofing and of course printing. You still need students to setup soft proofing on a laptop just to learn out to setup a soft proof.
It's kind of useful to have a lick of experience at a workshop and see how they are run before you condemn them all. Without data, you're just a person with an opinion.
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Jeez, it's hard enough to get it right with what I have. I can't imagine the difficulty of trying to do subtle corrections with a laptop in some improvised classroom for the four days or whatever of some seminar.
Again, you are taking a workshop to learn how to do the work required to process and optimize an image for printing. But you won't be making serious prints at a workshop, you will be learning techniques and developing a better understanding of the process.
While I don't make serious color & tone adjustments in the field I can certainly use my laptop to optimize an image, soft proof it and print it and get a really good print. But it's a throw away print...it's a sample print not a final fine art print, ya know? It's for the purpose of learning which is what you are paying for.
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Again, you are taking a workshop to learn how to do the work required to process and optimize an image for printing. But you won't be making serious prints at a workshop, you will be learning techniques and developing a better understanding of the process.
While I don't make serious color & tone adjustments in the field I can certainly use my laptop to optimize an image, soft proof it and print it and get a really good print. But it's a throw away print...it's a sample print not a final fine art print, ya know? It's for the purpose of learning which is what you are paying for.
Ok, I get that, I guess. Listen, I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, because you're ingrained in the educational community, and probably have a lot of friends and colleagues in the business. At the very high end. But, really, what could somebody like myself, a very experienced retoucher, or, Photoshop expert, who has made thousands of press proofs (for accuracy) in his life, actually learn from a "printing" workshop, that would reveal much more than what you tell me in your book? You know, that was worth the high fee?
The way I see it right now, I just have to decide on my four or five or six papers from all the samples I'm going through, and just buckle down and get it down. If somebody's going to tell me how to make a print "better" using Photoshop, well, I've got that covered. Anything else? Again, not trying to be an ass, just wondering.
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As a professional photographer, and person who, in the past, attended some workshops on photography, also a person who hold classes on photography on regular basis, even teach photography in the schools I can say that the matter of workshops and seminars are more complicated than it seems. In this discussion everyone is partially right.
There are many classes and workshops out there that are made just for pulling out money form attenders. There are also some excellent workshops that will save you time and money and put you on higher level of doing something – level which you will need years to reach by yourself, or maybe you will never reach it by yourself. Like in every industry or market there are god products, and bad products.
Every photographer and printmaker have his own path or call it workflow if you wish, that is optimized for him, and this depends on knowledge, experience and goal that should be reached. It may or may not suit you, at the end you will need to find your own way to do things. Of course there are some fundamentals that are the same for every workflow – but simple tips and tricks are that matters. Learning tips and tricks without fundamental knowledge is meaningless. So almost every workshop cover that, therefore if someone who is experienced and active working person attend workshop he will be boring by most of the time, but if you learn something new, one tiny piece of knowledge that can improve or speed up your own work it worth it.
There is also question of evaluation of someone’s work – when you do it all by yourself you will never know what more experienced user may thing of your work, where are you in the process, are you at the bottom or at the top, is there some room for improvement or not. Sometimes interaction with other participants is more valuable than interaction with teacher. You can see what others are doing, that can trigger your self-confidence if you are better than them, or make you humble student when you realized that you are not as good as you thing you are.
It is really complex interaction
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Hey folks,
Thank you for all the info and discussion! It's really helpful. Sorry for the late reply - I just got back from Mono Lake and Bristlecone Pine Forest :) And I've been getting my printer set up.
Yeah, an IPF 8400 is definitely a brave decision for a first printer - I was on the fence between that and the 6400, but I hope to sell fine art prints at some point, and felt the 6400 24" might be limiting. I'm an all or nothing, all in kinda guy :)
As for workshops - I am an artist by trade, and I've taken quite a few workshops along the way. I've found them to be a great value, especially compared to a college education for learning the same or similar subjects. Some were great. Worth their weight in gold and almost made me better instantly because of the quality of instruction and information. I've also taken workshops that were pretty much a complete wast of money. It can be hit or miss. I learned to be very selective about taking workshops. Researching the teacher, their portfolio, work history etc.
That being said, YouTube the internet, and plain old practice and experience are great teachers. It's only when I feel I need some focused or specialized training, as well as a professional instructor and like minded peers to talk to and work with, do I consider a workshop.
Capture 1 looks interesting. I am not really familiar with that program. Is it like a higher end image editing program, like Lightroom? Only better? What are it's advantages over Lightroom?
Hey Andrew Rodney/ Digitaldog - I just realized I've been watching your videos on YouTube over the last few days. Thank you for creating those.
Thanks again for the links and everything. If you see me on the forums, I'm a humble and motivated student, so feel free to drop knowledge bombs as you see fit :)
-Trevor
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I'm also new to printing, having purchased the Epson P800 a few months back. There probably isn't any advice I can offer that hasn't been covered already, by more knowledgeable folks than me.
I will say this, though. Use a good monitor, and keep it calibrated. When I replaced my iMac, I bought a Mac Mini. I was looking at monitors...Eizo and NEC, mainly...until a pro photographer who I greatly respect recommended one of the Dell Ultrasharp displays. Instead of the standard 27"...he recommended the 24" display, with it's 16:10 aspect ratio. So I bought one. I couldn't be happier with it. Having the extra height makes the display "look" big, and applications fit nicely without resizing/scrolling. As far as printer output, the prints I'm getting are dead-on. I never get any surprises. What I see on the monitor is what I see on the paper. Can't ask for more than that.
Paper opinions are all over the map. As others have suggested, get samples and experiment. I like darkroom prints, so Canson Baryta Photographique and Hahnemuhle Photo Silk Baryta work well for me, in color or b&w. They seem to be nearly identical papers in my experience. Canson Platine is very nice, as is the Hahnemuhle Fine Art Satin Baryta (my second favorite paper thus far). I love printing :)
Good luck.
Hey folks,
Thank you for all the info and discussion! It's really helpful. Sorry for the late reply - I just got back from Mono Lake and Bristlecone Pine Forest :) And I've been getting my printer set up.
Yeah, an IPF 8400 is definitely a brave decision for a first printer - I was on the fence between that and the 6400, but I hope to sell fine art prints at some point, and felt the 6400 24" might be limiting. I'm an all or nothing, all in kinda guy :)
As for workshops - I am an artist by trade, and I've taken quite a few workshops along the way. I've found them to be a great value, especially compared to a college education for learning the same or similar subjects. Some were great. Worth their weight in gold and almost made me better instantly because of the quality of instruction and information. I've also taken workshops that were pretty much a complete wast of money. It can be hit or miss. I learned to be very selective about taking workshops. Researching the teacher, their portfolio, work history etc.
That being said, YouTube the internet, and plain old practice and experience are great teachers. It's only when I feel I need some focused or specialized training, as well as a professional instructor and like minded peers to talk to and work with, do I consider a workshop.
Capture 1 looks interesting. I am not really familiar with that program. Is it like a higher end image editing program, like Lightroom? Only better? What are it's advantages over Lightroom?
Hey Andrew Rodney/ Digitaldog - I just realized I've been watching your videos on YouTube over the last few days. Thank you for creating those.
Thanks again for the links and everything. If you see me on the forums, I'm a humble and motivated student, so feel free to drop knowledge bombs as you see fit :)
-Trevor