Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: garywornell on June 17, 2016, 02:06:11 am
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I know several readers at LL are interested in the Epson Japanese Kozo Paper Thin - a frustration that has been going on a couple of years now.
I found a link that might interest you that promises free shipping worldwide.
http://tinyurl.com/zd263ru
I hope this works for you.
best regards
Gary Wornell
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This paper is really nice. It works great and I have done some interesting images with it. The backing peels off easily leaving a beautiful paper that backlights wonderfully. I even have taken the paper and crinkled it all up and then mounted it on board. Also I have mounted it on small stretcher frames that can hang in windows or stand alone. It's nice to see this paper may be available for those that want to try it. Also, don't necessarily print to this paper like other papers. Sometimes you get marvelous effects by printing lighter or even darker. Play around with the paper by making a series of prints at different densities and get an idea of what the look is and then match it up with how you will use. I'm sure Gary has good links he can share.
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This paper is really nice. It works great and I have done some interesting images with it. The backing peels off easily leaving a beautiful paper that backlights wonderfully. I even have taken the paper and crinkled it all up and then mounted it on board. Also I have mounted it on small stretcher frames that can hang in windows or stand alone. It's nice to see this paper may be available for those that want to try it. Also, don't necessarily print to this paper like other papers. Sometimes you get marvelous effects by printing lighter or even darker. Play around with the paper by making a series of prints at different densities and get an idea of what the look is and then match it up with how you will use. I'm sure Gary has good links he can share.
I'm very happy to help anyone with EJKPT - you can check out the info at www.garywornell.com/videos - not only my own but a wonderful video by Edo Bertona using Kozo in a very unique and wonderful way. Enjoy!
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Ahh boy, I wish I hadn't seen this!! Now I'm going to have to get a 17" printer, unless of course Epson is kind enough to make this paper available in sheets :)
I'm feeling like Pacino in GF 3, "Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in!!" :)
Kevin in CT
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Kevin - you will love this - and cutting into sheets is always the most economic way with this media. Don't buy your 17" - buy a roll and follow my video for cutting sheet. Unlike other media which 'remembers' the curl on the roll - Kozo, once printed and is dry the support sheet is peeled away and the paper lies perfectly flat.
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Your videos are great, Gary. I have to try this paper!
Sharon
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Thank you Sharon, let me know how you get on!
best
Gary
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Hi Gary,
Thank you so much for posting these links. You have really designed a great media.
Do you know where I can buy some of these lamp frames? Is there a good source online that offers various shapes and proportions?
John
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Hello John,
Actually I had these made by my frame maker. Its a piece of cake for them and the led lights were rebated into the top profile hidden from view.
Here in Finland we have lots of great cabinet makers so its easy to find someone willing to make them.
Good luck
Gary
Hi Gary,
Thank you so much for posting these links. You have really designed a great media.
Do you know where I can buy some of these lamp frames? Is there a good source online that offers various shapes and proportions?
John
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John, I just found this great video of the lamps! Enjoy.
https://youtu.be/SHZn2OqvFUQ
Best
Gary
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Very cool. I see that what was used here is double sided tape. I will try this and I also will try using ultra permanent PVA bookbinding glue.
The glue would be quite a bit tricker to use, but should hold the paper forever.
I'll have my framer make some prototypes.
John
John, I just found this great video of the lamps! Enjoy.
https://youtu.be/SHZn2OqvFUQ
Best
Gary
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Hello John,
Actually I had these made by my frame maker. Its a piece of cake for them and the led lights were rebated into the top profile hidden from view.
Here in Finland we have lots of great cabinet makers so its easy to find someone willing to make them.
Good luck
Gary
Hi Gary
Do you know the type of wood used and the size of the wood (strength) that's needed. I would try to make a few of the frames myself, short side either about 17" or 24" maximum.
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Hi Gary
Do you know the type of wood used and the size of the wood (strength) that's needed. I would try to make a few of the frames myself, short side either about 17" or 24" maximum.
My carpenter uses ash I think. I started with unpainted frames and the ash has a nice look where exposed.
Any stable wood will do - its not about strength at this scale.
Gary
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A great wood to use would be cypress. It is a tight-grained, strong, very light weight wood used traditionally for all kinds of building and furniture, shoji screens/doors, etc.
In Japan there is a species called hinoki (chamaecyparis obtusa) that is used for building temples all the way to simple rice bowls.
Having excellent characteristics for construction, it's ideal as well because it is used almost exclusively with rice paper for interior doors and windows as well as lamps and screens.
FWIW / YMMV
Mark
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A great wood to use would be cypress. It is a tight-grained, strong, very light weight wood used traditionally for all kinds of building and furniture, shoji screens/doors, etc.
In Japan there is a species called hinoki (chamaecyparis obtusa) that is used for building temples all the way to simple rice bowls.
Having excellent characteristics for construction, it's ideal as well because it is used almost exclusively with rice paper for interior doors and windows as well as lamps and screens.
FWIW / YMMV
Mark
Excellent choice. I know little about woods so I take advice from the experts!
best
Gary
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Thanks
Not a wood specialist myself.
I'm I right that you use a cross-section of about 18 by 18 mm (a little more than 5/8")?
Alain
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Thanks
Not a wood specialist myself.
I'm I right that you use a cross-section of about 18 by 18 mm (a little more than 5/8")?
Alain
Exactly right.
G
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If anyone should know about wood it would be Mark. If you guys haven't seen his sculpture, look at it online.
Cypress is a very interesting choice and one I wouldn't have thought about!
Having come from Louisiana I've seen numerous 18th and 19th century houses and amazing furniture made of cypress and it doesn't deteriorate. Cypress is unaffected by moisture, insects, heat, etc, and has a totally beautiful grain and color.
Ash is also a very tough wood for a lighter color. It is used a lot for guitar making when a very stable but thinly cut shape is needed. I would assume that maple is also a viable option, so many high-end musical instruments are made from it and it holds a shape over a long period of time when glued or laminated.
john
A great wood to use would be cypress. It is a tight-grained, strong, very light weight wood used traditionally for all kinds of building and furniture, shoji screens/doors, etc.
In Japan there is a species called hinoki (chamaecyparis obtusa) that is used for building temples all the way to simple rice bowls.
Having excellent characteristics for construction, it's ideal as well because it is used almost exclusively with rice paper for interior doors and windows as well as lamps and screens.
FWIW / YMMV
Mark
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Thanks for the kind words John -
Actually, what seems to work best in my experience is a light weight wood, strong and porous to be able to accept glue and sizing.
Redwood is a surprisingly strong, light wood and would also work well.
Maple and ash and beech are harder woods, much more dense and they can warp easily in smaller strips accept when glued.
Redwood, cypress, or inland red cedar make excellent material for this kind of work.
But sometimes these woods are not readily available, so a viable alternative is poplar. Plus you can usually get it at Lowes or Home Depot. I would shy away from oak or walnut or cherry.
-Mark
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Thanks for the kind words John -
Actually, what seems to work best in my experience is a light weight wood, strong and porous to be able to accept glue and sizing.
Redwood is a surprisingly strong, light wood and would also work well.
Maple and ash and beech are harder woods, much more dense and they can warp easily in smaller strips accept when glued.
Redwood, cypress, or inland red cedar make excellent material for this kind of work.
But sometimes these woods are not readily available, so a viable alternative is poplar. Plus you can usually get it at Lowes or Home Depot. I would shy away from oak or walnut or cherry.
-Mark
Thanks a lot Mark.
Availability is indeed a "problem" for small amounts.
A friend also recommended "yellow pine", but I have almost zero detailed knowledge about wood names and exact types.
Alain
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Alain,
Actually yellow pine is a harder soft wood and it tends to be cantankerous - just never know what it's going to do on a small scale like this. Try poplar - if in US - from Lowes - it should do the trick.
Lowes has cedar used mostly for outdoor trim I believe.
Here's a source for cypress I found online -
CYPRESS (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/category/Cypress.html)
A woodworker / furniture maker can make just about any wood work fine.
To be more traditional, as previously recommended, cypress is the real deal.
-Mark
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Here's an interesting project(s) - a Japanese lantern for anyone wanting to try a little
woodworking project that can take the Kozo paper:
Semi-circular lantern (https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/plans-projects/japanese-paper-lantern)
Another Japanese Lamp - with plans (https://books.google.com/books?id=vfYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37#v=onepage&q&f=false)
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Thanks very much, Mark.
I purchased a lamp similar to the second link a number of years ago from a local woodworker. It didn't use thin Kozo though but rather a much heavier textured but translucent paper that included small leaves in the paper. It produces a wonderful light and is unique looking.
My problem is that a person visiting my home put their thumb and forefinger through the paper in a clumsy attempt to pick it up. I'm still trying to figure out how to perhaps disassemble it to repair or replace the paper. I don't want to destroy the craftsmanship that exists so I'm just leaving it alone for now.
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Alain,
Actually yellow pine is a harder soft wood and it tends to be cantankerous - just never know what it's going to do on a small scale like this. Try poplar - if in US - from Lowes - it should do the trick.
Lowes has cedar used mostly for outdoor trim I believe.
Here's a source for cypress I found online -
CYPRESS (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/category/Cypress.html)
A woodworker / furniture maker can make just about any wood work fine.
To be more traditional, as previously recommended, cypress is the real deal.
-Mark
Mark
Thanks again.
I'm from Europe (Flanders), but I've seen some Cedar (18x68mm already finished) and the shop has the equipment to saw it in the length.
If I don't find something better at some other store's the Cedar will be used.
Alain
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Thanks very much, Mark.
I purchased a lamp similar to the second link a number of years ago from a local woodworker. It didn't use thin Kozo though but rather a much heavier textured but translucent paper that included small leaves in the paper. It produces a wonderful light and is unique looking.
My problem is that a person visiting my home put their thumb and forefinger through the paper in a clumsy attempt to pick it up. I'm still trying to figure out how to perhaps disassemble it to repair or replace the paper. I don't want to destroy the craftsmanship that exists so I'm just leaving it alone for now.
Hi Ron -
It is not uncommon in Japan, as a matter of fact, it is a rule to repair shoji by adhering a small neat patch (sensu or other shape) over a hole. If it is a tear, just find a piece of rice paper (shojigami-means shoji rice paper) and use a little Elmers glue and put the tear together with the patch from the inside (they use mostly corn starch glue or rice paste called Nori in Japan). You can sandwich layers, meaning patch on inside and outside. Patches, artfully done are a sign of time passage and represent frugality.
Some highly prized shoji doors have numerous careful patches - in some cases they are highly sought after. Some patches even have chop marks on them, signifying the repair and the person performing the service.
I like the lamp that is in Alain's video, mainly because it is so straight forward and simple and can be changed out easily.
BTW, you don't necessarily need to use double sided tape although it is a convenience. Elmer's white glue is relatively archival and easy to work with. Spread it with finger tips and let it get a little tacky, then put the Kozo on in the same manner lightly wetted.You can speed up the drying with a hair dryer or a 50 watt light bulb.
I like the LED's in Alain's model as well - great idea.
Mark
Edits for additional info.
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Here's an interesting project(s) - a Japanese lantern for anyone wanting to try a little
woodworking project that can take the Kozo paper:
Semi-circular lantern (https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/plans-projects/japanese-paper-lantern)
Another Japanese Lamp - with plans (https://books.google.com/books?id=vfYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Thanks for the links, Mark! I have a place for that first lamp. :-)
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Hi Ron -
It is not uncommon in Japan, as a matter of fact, it is a rule to repair shoji by adhering a small neat patch (sensu or other shape) over a hole. If it is a tear, just find a piece of rice paper (shojigami-means shoji rice paper) and use a little Elmers glue and put the tear together with the patch from the inside (they use mostly corn starch glue or rice paste called Nori in Japan). You can sandwich layers, meaning patch on inside and outside. Patches, artfully done are a sign of time passage and represent frugality.
Some highly prized shoji doors have numerous careful patches - in some cases they are highly sought after. Some patches even have chop marks on them, signifying the repair and the person performing the service.
I like the lamp that is in Alain's video, mainly because it is so straight forward and simple and can be changed out easily.
BTW, you don't necessarily need to use double sided tape although it is a convenience. Elmer's white glue is relatively archival and easy to work with. Spread it with finger tips and let it get a little tacky, then put the Kozo on in the same manner lightly wetted.You can speed up the drying with a hair dryer or a 50 watt light bulb.
I like the LED's in Alain's model as well - great idea.
Mark
Edits for additional info.
Thanks so much for the advice, Mark!!!! This lamp was made with a warm CFL bulb in it. It produces a warm light through the paper that is very peaceful.
I lived in northern Japan for 2 years in the early 70's and enjoyed and appreciated Japanese traditions and art. When I found this lamp from a local woodworker I was immediately drawn to it.
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FYI, Fishpond.com does not have this paper now. I ordered some on line and got an automatic refund. No mention of possibility of reacquiring a supply. Disappointing. Should anyone know of another source, please post the information.
Regards,
Dale V.
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They say they shipped my 17" roll which I ordered 3 weeks ago. They say it might take until the 14th to arrive.
Does anyone know where we can order 24" rolls in England?
I talked to my US supplier today and he said Epson has no plans to offer offer the kozo to the US market. What the hell is the matter with them. The first original product they have ever offered and we can't get it.
john
FYI, Fishpond.com does not have this paper now. I ordered some on line and got an automatic refund. No mention of possibility of reacquiring a supply. Disappointing. Should anyone know of another source, please post the information.
Regards,
Dale V.
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Does anyone know where we can order 24" rolls in England?
Some time last year I bought a couple of 24" rolls from
http://micro-partners.co.uk
Phone: +44-(0)208-900-2770
sales@mplworld.co.uk
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FYI, Fishpond.com does not have this paper now.
Dale V.
How annoying. Has anyone tried printing on similar papers, but without the backing?
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Gary and other users. My 1st roll has just arrived. Do you have a suggestion for a starting profile for an Epson 4880 (absent making my own for the time being)? I found Gary's link to profiles which include each one for the 2880/3880, the 7880/9880, and the 4900 so I'm wondering which might be the best starter for the 4880.
http://www.garywornell.com/kozo/printer-profiles/
Thanks
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Thanks for that website. I appreciate it.
I just received my 17"x 32 feet roll from Fish Pond and this tiny little roll cost me $175.00, and that's crazy, BUT I'm glad to have it. I can't experiment with it if I don't have it.
Epson doesn't think there is a market for it in US. And, that is more than a little odd because they haven't even offered it to us to try in the first place. Why did they go to all this trouble to produce it and create that web ad if they didn't think there was a market for it. None of that makes any sense. Gary did his job. Now it is time for them to do theirs.
Apparently one of the things that distinguishes this media is that it is 80% Kozo and 20% Abaca fibers. This is probably what gives the great dmax while still retaining the texture and quality of kozo. There are other kozo blends out there but they are using other formulas. I can't wait to make something with this.
John
quote author=rxchaos link=topic=111080.msg921203#msg921203 date=1467988828]
Does anyone know where we can order 24" rolls in England?
Some time last year I bought a couple of 24" rolls from
http://micro-partners.co.uk
Phone: +44-(0)208-900-2770
sales@mplworld.co.uk
[/quote]
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FYI, Fishpond.com does not have this paper now. I ordered some on line and got an automatic refund. No mention of possibility of reacquiring a supply. Disappointing. Should anyone know of another source, please post the information.
Regards,
Dale V.
According to their Facebook Page
https://www.facebook.com/EpsonJapaneseKozoPaperThin/?rc=p
Amazon UK will post to USA.
Does anyone know where we can order 24" rolls in England?
Some time last year I bought a couple of 24" rolls from
http://micro-partners.co.uk
Phone: +44-(0)208-900-2770
sales@mplworld.co.uk
https://www.amazon.co.uk/EPSON-Japanese-Kozo-Paper-Thin/dp/B00GD4KMU0?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
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Thanks for the FB link. I found a post there that said Ultra Smooth Fine Art Paper is the setting to use. I ran some tests with regular inkjet paper (and the paper profiles obviously) between the 4880, 3880 and 7880 profiles and found the 7880 matched the 4880 profile perfectly (3880 was way too dark), so I think I have a profile and paper setting to start testing with now.
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"According to their Facebook Page
https://www.facebook.com/EpsonJapaneseKozoPaperThin/?rc=p
Amazon UK will post to USA."
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Dale
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"According to their Facebook Page
https://www.facebook.com/EpsonJapaneseKozoPaperThin/?rc=p
Amazon UK will post to USA."
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Dale
I found the same link and dutifully clicked it ... so I just ordered a 24" roll for less than I paid for the 17" roll :) partly because the exchange rate was 1.34 and I noticed that fishpond are showing a lower price now ($149) for the 17" roll
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Well of course, things are increasing in price here (UK) already - already had an email from one company stating that there will be a price increase on Monday. :-[
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I found the same link and dutifully clicked it ... so I just ordered a 24" roll for less than I paid for the 17" roll :) partly because the exchange rate was 1.34 and I noticed that fishpond are showing a lower price now ($149) for the 17" roll
Processed the 24" roll from Amazon UK and the total with shipping came to $269.00.
Held off on the buy. Hopefully I can find it for a little less. Thought that was quite pricy!
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That does seem like a lot considering the 17" roll is $123 delivered.
I bought it on a lark and probably do not have need for 30' of it so if someone is interested in some, PM me.
Item Subtotal: £77.30
Postage & Packing: £14.58
Order Total: £91.88
USD 123.54*
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Dan, that's crazy! I sent you an email. I still see it for $157 shipped
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Fantastic! For those in Australia this paper is available to purchase direct from Epson Australia. I've just ordered a roll.
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I just received my 17" roll from Amazon UK with significantly faster shipping than originally promised.
Question: I know Mr. Wornell has some ICC profiles but what is the best method of making my own for such a thin paper so that whatever is behind the paper doesn't influence the i1Pro readings?
Use 1 or more layers of kozo paper w/ backing paper removed? Seems REALLY wasteful.
Is it possible to take a reading of the backing paper by itself and effectively remove/subtract it from
the overall reading?
Thoughts appreciated. In particular, this is for an Epson 3880 and/or dye-based Canon PRO100
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I am not able to really help (but would also like to make my own profile). I downloaded the profile and used it for a 4900.
I have only printed 8/9 images and one does not appear as I would have (hoped/expected).
I would think you would have to use several (3/4) layers of the paper without the backing as it is that thin.
Ray
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Why not leave the backing paper on? The paper is so thin there is always some influence on the overall appearance and color fidelity. The backing paper is not very off in its color.
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If you are looking for thicker kozo use the Awagami from Freestyle. It has a very good photo coating and comes in rolls to 44". I have used it for exhibitions and it's great.
The whole point of the new Epson media is that it is translucent and still maintains excellent dmax, sharpness, and color gamut while and not loosing it's authentic rice paper appearance. Awagami also has a thin version that comes with a backing that peels off, but it is not as impressive, especially for bw where a photo tonal range is desired.
john
I am not able to really help (but would also like to make my own profile). I downloaded the profile and used it for a 4900.
I have only printed 8/9 images and one does not appear as I would have (hoped/expected).
I would think you would have to use several (3/4) layers of the paper without the backing as it is that thin.
Ray
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My first Kozo attempt.
Sprayed with 3 coats of Glamor II really makes the colors pop.
Received 2 rolls from Amazon UK in 3 days. Cost was $270 for a 17 and 24" roll.
Mounted to a black/mahogany frame turned sideways so that I had a finished flat area on the top and the side.
Tomorrow will try several acrylic mounts.
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Dan, what adhesive did you use?
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Started with a 3M double sided tape. Had a little problem with that.
The paper was not perfectly flat and when I flipped the frame onto the print it had a small crease on one of the edges I did not like.(Not repositionable)
I took it off and used my Magic Mitre framers glue.
Sorry it is all I had but it did dry clear..
Will order some Acrylic Medium and also try the 3M tape again.
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I have used some acrylic medium to stick the print to the frame.
I made my first backing frames from frame moulding, but to experiment I bought some pine, then gave it one coat and allowed it to dry before giving it a second coat.
Dan, I did wonder about spraying with Timeless but wasn't sure, after your comments I might give it a go.
Ray
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Some of my images with Kozo - experimenting to see what would look best with a light behind.
The disappointment is the long one in the foreground as I don't think it works at all with the light behind, but works without a light.
The small northern lights has a frame made from picture moulding, the others are made from 15mm x 15mm pine.
Ray
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I've received a roll of this paper from Amazon UK. Even after installing all the software updates for my P800 I don't see any media settings related to this paper on Windows. What gives, Epson? Is it a regional thing? I'm in Europe. At least I could download the paper profile from Gary's website.
My first attempt at stretch mounting would make a kindergarten teacher proud, heh. This will be interesting.