Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Cornelius on June 15, 2016, 10:39:30 am
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Hi guys
After about 2 weeks of without printing on my Epson 9890 I wanted to print some pictures today. So I did a nozzle check (cyan was partially missing) followed by a head clean.
So with my perfect nozzle check I started to print on Tecco PFR295 matte some color and b/w pictures. Unfortunately I found visible magenta tint in all prints. So I did again a nozzle check, which was still perfect.
Then I changed all "almost" empty ink cartridges with fresh ones, did another head clean and tried the same color and b/w image on some different papers (Tecco PM230, PD190, PFR295, PGG250) to check if I maybe just have a broken ICC.
Unfortunately all prints on the different papers look the same with the still visible magenta tint. The tint got a bit weaker but is still visible.
Would you have any idea what could be the problem? Two weeks ago I printed about 15 large prints without any problem.
Currently I'm printing with the official Tecco ICC profiles and never had problems within the last years. Could it be that the printer needs his own specific profiles or should I call an Epson technician?
I attached a sample b/w print on Tecco PD190. Left side Epson 9890 with the magenta tint and on the right, the same image printed on my Epson 3880 also on Tecco PD190.
Thanks for your help!
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Regardless of what the nozzle check shows, try printing a whole page of Green and another of Cyan (you can download these printer workout pages from the website of Marrutt USA - they have them for the 4900 for sure, which are fine to use in your printer) to see whether these inks are printing full strength and smoothly. I suggest this because a Magenta cast would seem to suggest a weakness of Green and/or Cyan. Normally one does not need different profiles for different photos if they are being printed with the same paper, printer and driver settings for which the profile was generated.
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Hi Mark
Thanks for your suggestions. I did a ink purge for cyan and green on PD190 (matte). On the first sight it looks good, at the very detail I can see a faint banding on both pages (green/cyan).
I tried another b/w print after the purge without any change (see example in my updated first post).
Cyan and light cyan are quite new cartridges. Yellow has about 20% left.
Nozzle check is again perfect, event under magnification I can't find a missing nozzle or a slight shift in the pattern.
Any other idea? I guess I need a Epson technician? :-(
PS: I meant "printer specific profile" and not "print specific". Sorry my mistake..
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There shouldn't be visible banding as long as there are enough pixels in the test photos to yield a clean print. If you are pretty sure of the integrity of your profiles, I would recommend giving Epson ProGraphics a call to discuss other possibilities with them.
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Seems that I have to call Epson.. :-(
I created the purge file myself quickly in Photoshop, A4 with 360dpi. This should not be the source of the banding. I can already see the technician telling me "you need a new head".. :-/ :-/ :-/
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360 is more than enough. The technical people I converse with tell me the printheads on those machines are usually the last thing to go bad unless it's been terribly under-utilized or hugely busy for a long period of time.
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Oh that makes hope. :) Until now, I only read about head issues on the 9890.
But yeah, maybe the dampers need to be replaced!? The machine is about 3-4 years old (I bought it second hand). The owner before had a photography shop and printed posters for clients on the plotter. So it was quite busy before it came to my office. I print every 1-2 weeks 2-3 meters off 24' roll paper.. so not to much. ;)
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If you have no banding or missing nozzles in a nozzle check there should be no need to replace a head or dampers. I'm not sure what the problem is, but it sounds like something in the workflow or driver.
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Hi Wayne
No there is no banding/or missing nozzle in the nozzle check. The nozzle check is 100% perfect.
I'm printing with the Tecco default ICC profiles. Until now, this worked very well for all my prints on my 3880 and the 9890. Even when I printed the same picture for comparison on both machines on the same paper, the prints are about 95% similar. There are just slight differences in the blacks/contrast.
My workflow and driver settings did not change until my latest prints on the 9890 which did not have the magenta tint.
Do you think this could be the moment where I should start to measure my own ICC profiles? Instead of getting a service technician to my office?
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One more thing you can try, if you have not done so already, is to reprint one of those photos with "Printer Color Management" instead of the usual ICC profile route. This will help to isolate where the problem may be. If the tint goes away, you can be more assured it is a profiling issue; if the tint does not go away it would suggest a printer issue.
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@Mark
Good idea! I haven't tried this yet.
So I just printed with printer color management and the recommended driver settings from Tecco for the PD190 paper. Aaaand (drum roll), the tint is gone! :-o
The print looks now neutral, although I did not use "black and white" mode in the driver.
Seem definitely now a CM issue on my printer. Funny enough, 2 weeks ago with the same ICC profiles, papers, driver settings etc.. everything was great.
How could this be??
Allright, I will order now as soon as possible an x-rite iOne Pro sensor to professionally create my own ICC profiles.
And in the meantime I will try to create a new ICC profile with my ColorMunki and see if the prints will be without the tint.
Thanks for your help guys!!
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Super - that takes you a long way forward. But the CM issue is not necessary with the printer. CM is done largely with profiles working in the Color Management Module of your computer operating system. Has anything there (hardware, software) changed over the past few weeks? An iPro set-up is great and really nice to have, but it costs quite a chunk of money and has a "more trouble than necessary" learning curve because of X-Rite's terrible documentation, so you want to be sure you really need it/can make enough use of it.
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One more possibility Cornelius. Although this is very rare, it's possible that the profile has somehow become corrupted. I would suggest that if you still have that profile on file, trash the one you've been using and reinstall the one on file. If you don't have it on file you can probably download it again from the paper manufacturer's website. This experiment would only take a few minutes, including testing, and it can't hurt to try. If it works it could save you a lot of time trying to track this issue down. I had this happen on my 9900 a few years ago, so I followed this procedure and the reinstalled profile worked exactly as expected. Hope this helps.
Gary
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Yes - that is possible - definitely worth trying.
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Thanks guys, appreciate your help!
@Garnick & Mark
I had this idea already (as I had corrupted ICC profiles before). So I already replaced the ICC profiles for my four different papers from Tecco without any change.
@ Mark
The principle of CM is clear, but what I don't understand, if it is a software issue on my Mac, you only the Epson 9890 shows the tint and not also the 3880 on which I print with the same papers and generic ICC profiles from Tecco?
So here is a list of everything that changed since my latest correct print on the Epson 9890:
- Lightroom/Photoshop Update (I already tried printing with Lightroom and Photoshop. Same tint from both apps at the 9890)
- I build in a LED strip to my 9890. Actually this is just for fun and as I don't have a spectra viewer the LED strip should not influence the printer. To be sure, I also printed a test with the LED light unplugged from electricity to ensure that there is no fancy influence to the print head or electronic. (see attached some pictures of the LED) ;)
Here is my system configuration:
MacPro late 2014 with OSX 10.11.4 (did not update to the latest version yet)
Latest versions of Lightroom and Photoshop
My whole printing workflow is based on Lightroom using presets for all kind of paper sizes from the rollpaper.
My test file I printed was a b/w converted RAW file (not JPEG or tif) right out of Lightroom.
Tomorrow I will try to create a custom ICC with my ColorMunki. I know the ColorMunki isn't that advanced than the i1 Pro, but definitely better then nothing. ;) I'm also gonna try printing from my MacBookAir to ensure it is not an issue of my MacPro.
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When you speak of "generic profiles", I'm not clear on what you mean. These are different printers with a different inkset so for each TECCO paper I assume you know you should have a different profile for each of those two printers for each paper. Nothing else here looks to me out of the ordinary.
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By generic I mean the printer specific ICC profile from Tecco, which are not individually created for my personal printer.
Ah and by the way, the 3880 and 9890 are using exactly the same inkset from Epson. They just have different cartridge sizes. That was the reason why I bought the second hand 9890 instead of the brand new SureColor 7xxx which uses the new HD inks. My hope was to get extrem similar prints from both printers when printing the same picture on different sizes (10/15cm up to roll paper).
The whole situation is really wired for me. Why does one of two printers gets a color tint while nozzle checks and purge prints looks perfect. ??
I try my MacBookAir tomorrow for a test print the exclude an computer specific issue. But afterwards I guess I will just have to profile my 9890 with personal ICC profiles for my papers and hopefully this resolves the tint.
One hint I got from a german colleague. He thinks it could be an aging/wear effect of the head. He told me that the nozzles can widen over time/due to usage and this results in a shift of the amount of ink spit out of the head. This would result in a color shift/tint and could be corrected by personal ICC profiles instead of a costly head replacement from an Epson technician.
Could this be my "issue"?
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One hint I got from a german colleague. He thinks it could be an aging/wear effect of the head. He told me that the nozzles can widen over time/due to usage and this results in a shift of the amount of ink spit out of the head. This would result in a color shift/tint and could be corrected by personal ICC profiles instead of a costly head replacement from an Epson technician.
Could this be my "issue"?
If he doesn't have specific inside engineering knowledge and experience on these print heads I would tend to dismiss this as yet another urban myth of which we see so many about how these printers work or don't work. Even if this were possible, it sounds counter-intuitive that it would happen to only one or two channels producing one opposing colour tint. From what the technical people inform me, the usual, most common signs of a worn print-head are ink laydown defects that occur gradually in all channels. But best discuss with Epson ProGraphics Tech Support.
And yes, correct - this inkset does not have Green, so if the cause is insufficient laydown of the opposing colour, then it would be Cyan or Light Cyan; but if the cause is too much laydown of the offending colour it would be Vivid Magenta or Vivid Light Magenta. But that doesn't indicate whether the cause of the laydown issue is profile or mechanical. The test you did with success from Printer Color Management indicates it is more than likely an ICC-profiling issue.
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You're right.. is should have thought about my test with the Printer CM which was a success.
I just tried another test from my MacBookAir which uses the same software version of OS and Lightroom/Photoshop and the same ICC profiles from Tecco. The magenta tint is also visible on this test print.
What I actually forgot, since my last correct print I updated also the printer firmware on the Epson 9890. Could this cause any issues with the existing ICC profiles from Tecco?
To summarize
- Magenta color cast visible in color and b/w prints in the greys
- Last prints I did about 2 weeks ago did not have the magenta cast
- The magenta cast is independent from the computer and software used to print (used three different Macs with 10.10.5, 10.11.4 and 10.11.5, Photoshop CS5 and latest versions of Lightroom, Photoshop and Mirage3.0)
- The same magenta cast is visible on several papers from Tecco and Epson (matte, glossy)
- The magenta cast is not visible on my Epson 3880 using same software/computer workflow for printing and also the corresponding Tecco ICC profiles
- The magenta cast is not visible when using Color Management by the printer
Any clou?
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Okay, now I'm totally confused.
I just created a custom ICC profile for my 9890 using my ColorMunki. But the printing result is absolutely the same. I still have the magenta tint on my prints...
Update:
I just found this link:
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/profiles/diagnose-osx-related-color-management-troubles.html
Seems to make sense that this could be the issue on my 9890.
I the meantime I updated my MacPro to the latest OSX version. The magenta cast is still visible.
The same magenta cast is also visible when printing from my MacBook Air with the latest OSX version and freshly installed printer driver.
Could it be, that the issue only appears in combination with the 9890 and not with the 3880?
Update 2:
I just updated the firmware to the version from June 14th 2016 without any change. Magenta cast is still there.
Now I don't have any other option to test, as I don't have Windows Computer around to check wether it is an OSX issue.
Update 3:
Just tested from the 3rd Mac at my office, running with OSX 10.10.5 (so one big release older) and Photoshop CS5 with the same magenta cast. :-(
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That link points to a process of elimination trying to see whether the problem is coming from profiling or from the operating system or from the printer itself. I'm not sure it's determinative - would need to spend more time with it than I have just now. However that said, NORMALLY with Epson printers, firmware upgrades do NOT interfere with colour management. As explained to me in the past, they take extra care to prevent this for obvious reasons - all hell would break-loose every time there is a firmware update. So I would look upon firmware as a very low probability cause. Likewise, recent updates of OSX, and I have implemented several of them over the past few years, have caused no colour management issues at least on my system, nor have I seen complaints of this kind from Snow Leopard upward. By having all the components up to date as you have, you probably reduced to a minimum the risk of incompatibility between drivers/OSX components being responsible for this problem.
So based on what we've seen so far: the only test you've done that gave you satisfactory results is the one with the printer managing colour, but when using ICC colour management the problem is only happening with the 9890, and it is happening from different Mac computers. It is also happening with different papers and profiles and on different photos. All this would seem to point to some kind of colour management breakdown specific to this printer when it is being used in ICC colour management mode. I'm assuming you did, but when you tested it with Epson paper, did you also use Epson's own profile for that paper? If you did and you still get the cast, you can be reasonably assured that the problem is likely not with the output profile (printer/paper) and more likely systemic. I would make one more suggestion: try one of those prints using Printer Color Management, this time in Advanced Black and White mode where the printer completely takes over colour management for sure. If you get neutral results from this, my thinking would be that you more assuredly have a colour management issue through the usual ICC profiling route (Application Color Management), the cause of which remains obscure. In that case, I strongly suggest you contact Epson ProGraphics for additional diagnostic help.
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Hi Again Cornelius,
Just a thought. Are you using the same connection/cable for each test/computer? Since you have been testing from other computers I doubt that would be the case, but thought I would ask regardless. However, if you are using the same cable each time perhaps that's where the problem is. I don't recall if this has been mentioned, so forgive me if it has. I'm also sure you would have tried another cable long ago, but sometimes we tend to get caught up in the most technical aspects of a problem, while overlooking the obvious.
Gary
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@Mark
Alright, I did your test.
Print 1: Printer Color Management in Advanced Black and White Mode with neutral greys --> faint magenta/purple cast
Print 2: Printer Color Management in Color Mode without color adjustments from the printer/driver --> neutral print without a color cast
Do you have a contact to Epson? I already contacted the german speaking online support, descripted my issue and all the test which I have done.
The only answer from them was, contact Adobe or Apple. If the nozzle check is clean, the problem comes not from Epson. :-/
I just rechecked some old b/w prints from 2-3 weeks ago. Unfortunately they also have the slight color cast which I did not mentioned yet.
So it seems as the issue appears already a bit longer.
@ Garnick
Good point, did not check the cable yet. So I exchanged the USB cable from the 9890 by the cable from my 3880.
No change, still have the color cast.
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That tech support guy was trying to get rid of you. If you are still getting a cast in ABW mode, this does suggest something amiss in the printer/printer driver/firmware end of things. Call them back, ask for a higher level of support and tell them you are getting color casts in ABW mode. They cannot wiggle out of that one because it is at that point all Epson. I don't think Epson America would be available to you as you are in the German service area.
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Hi Mark
Thanks for your help. In the meantime I have an update as I called a print expert (Markus Zuber, who actually already read this discussion here) for help.
After his suggestion printing on my PD190 paper from Tecco with first ICC-CM Workflow, using the Epson enhanced matte ICC profil with perceptive and then a second print with CM by the printer and paper media von Enhanced matte we could figure out that the ColorManagement works. Both prints are similar.
Compared to a reference print from my Epson 3880 I definitely see a magenta cast on both test prints from the Epson 9890. So therefore he suggested that the CM works and it is rather an issue of the printer which is not able to print neutral greys. What I actually didn't know, that the Epson 9890 tends to this issue.
So the next step will be a personal profiling for my 9890 by Markus with the i1 Workflow and the goal to get better and more neutral greys.
Lets see what comes out!
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Hi Cornelius; yes I think we came to that conclusion the other day: something is amiss with the printer. Creating custom profiles with i1Profiler may correct the problem, so your friend Markus' proposal is a good one. Hope it works for you.
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Hi Mark - yes right, we had the conclusion with custom profiles here also. I also discussed with Markus the profiling with the ColorMunki (and I'm totally aware of that the ColorMunki is a really basic tool) and he told me that for color casts in greytones the ColorMunki just not work.
So let's see what comes hope. I hope to get the profiles on Monday to directly test them with some prints.
In the afternoon I have a telephone appointment with an swiss Epson Pro Graphics partner (recommended company by Markus) to further discuss my issue.
I'm absolutely sure in the beginning of 2016, when I bought the printer second hand this color cast was either much weaker or even not there. So maybe there is actually really a technical issue on the printer!?
I also did not mention here, that the only channel who "regularly" has clogged nozzle is Cyan. So maybe I really have to get a service technician to my studio for checking the printer and maybe change the dampers.
So finally, I guess we are on route to hopefully solve the problem and bring this plotter back to neutral greys for my own and the prints for my clients. :)
Thanks and I will update this topic as soon as I have the custom profiles and the discussion with the Epson Pro Graphics partner.
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Thanks Cornelius, looking forward to the next update. Inadequate ink laydown from the Cyan channel for whatever reason would be a cause of a magenta or reddish cast. It will be interesting to hear the outcome of these next steps.
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Today I tested the printer with new custom ICC profiles, created with the i1 workflow. Unfortunately there is still no change. The magenta cast is still visible.
In the meantime I had a phone call with an Epson Pro Graphics partner who suggested a printer maintenance by a service technician to check the printhead, dampers, wiper blade and caping station.
I just wrote an email to the Epson Pro Graphics partner to arrange a visit of the service technician. Let's see if this finally solves the issue.
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Based on this outcome I think a service tech is the correct approach because it sounds more and more like some kind of mechanical under-performance. Hope that resolves it.
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Hi guys
So here is an update to the current situation. The bad news, the tint is still there. But so far I can say, it seems to be not a mechanical issue.
Last wednesday a service technician visited my studio and checked the plotter. After a test print and a print head test he told me, there is no technical problem with the printer. He acutually told me, the printer is in superb condition. *yes* :)
No I got the suggestion to print with a real RIP, which excludes the printer internal color linearization. So as ImagePrint is not yet working with the 9890, I tried the QuadTone RIP with a black/white image. AND, the cast is completely gone!! I can't believe it, but the print is absolutely neutral!
So back to the normal workflow (Photoshop and Epson printer driver), the cast is there.
So I guess the following things could be the issue:
- printer internal linearization is wrong or the internal board does not work correctly
- MacOSX color sync has an issue (what I don't think, as I tried 3 computers with two different OS version 10.10 and 10.11)
Does anyone has another suggestion? By the way, I tried to check the printer with the Epson linearization tool. But I always get an "firmware update needed" warning when trying to connect to the printer. This is strange, because the printer has the most recent firmware installed. I event reinstalled the firmware just minutes ago and tried the linearization tool again without any luck.
Does the tool maybe needs the SpectroProofer installed? Cause my plotter doesn't have the SpectroProofer.
Cheers
Cornelius
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Maybe I should add that I also tried the advanced black and white mode from the Epson printer (so Apple OSX ColorSync CMM switched off) and the color cast was also visible.
Next week I will try printing from a Windows computer to definitely exclude OSX as a source of the cast.
But what do you think about the internal color modul of the printer and the linearization. Could this be possible?
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What version of Photoshop or Lightroom are you printing from: the exact version number please.
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Lightroom 2015.6 (latest CC version)
Photoshop 2015.5.0 (latest CC version)
OSX 10.11.5
Epson driver 9.33
Epson 9890 Firmware JW124G5
I also tried printing with a demo version of Mirage 3.5.
The only neutral print I could to was with the QuadTone RIP.
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Colour management for printing is broken (https://luminous-landscape.com/whither-adobe/) in both Photoshop and Lightroom's latest versions. Dial back to an earlier version and try your test again.
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But why do I also see the cast printing with Mirage and Apple Preview?
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No idea, I don't use either of those applications, but it's good eliminate one variable we KNOW is not printing correctly and that is the latest PS/LR.
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If CM is broken in Photoshop and Lightroom. Could it only be visible printing on the Epson 9890? Because on my 3880 I get neutral prints out of PS and LR. ?
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It's an OSX/Adobe problem not confined to any one printer model, so wrong colours would show from both of those printers.
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If CM is broken in Photoshop and Lightroom. Could it only be visible printing on the Epson 9890? Because on my 3880 I get neutral prints out of PS and LR. ?
Is there any chance you have "Printer Manages Color" checked anywhere in the pipeline? This can be set from several places.
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If CM is broken in Photoshop and Lightroom. Could it only be visible printing on the Epson 9890? Because on my 3880 I get neutral prints out of PS and LR. ?
It may indeed NOT be visible depending on a number of facts (the RGB working space, the color content of the image). The bug appears to affect blue's the most if the document is in sRGB at the very least, and contains lots of blues in color space. And even then, it can be rather subtle. But it's wrong. So don't event think of using the last two updates of LR and Photoshop for printing!