Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: tom b on June 12, 2016, 01:04:33 pm
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Fifty plus dead, what does it take for Americans to take gun control seriously.
Gun control (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jun/12/florida-nightclub-shooting-terrorism-suspect-updates?CMP=soc_567).
WTF,
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A hummer in New York Times Square with four or five suicidal terrorists, each with fully automatic machine guns and magazines to open up on a Friday or Saturday night. I reckon that kind of act would forever change the mindset of many regarding the ownership of such weapons. I don't know of anywhere else in the USA that you would find so many people exposed as pedestrians in an uncontrolled space and susceptible to gun fire. Maybe throw in a backup hummer manned with the same number of terrorists just for laughs. If that type of attack had no impact on the perception of owning automatic weapons then I can't think of anything that would.
Wouldn't work: terrorists are known to be mad, excusing everybody else who, of course, is super-responsible.
It's basic: only I should own a gun. Absolutely for self-protection.
Rob
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Mass shootings. 1,052 mass shootings in 1,066 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like
Only in America (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence)
Really,
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The other question, is it working?
Just think,
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A hummer in New York Times Square with four or five suicidal terrorists, each with fully automatic machine guns and magazines to open up on a Friday or Saturday night. I reckon that kind of act would forever change the mindset of many regarding the ownership of such weapons.
How on earth would a kneejerk reaction towards more gun ownership deter a terrorist who attaches no value to life, not even his own (maybe even less if believing in a great reward in the afterlife)? It would only increase the chance of accidents and deliberate misuse of such weapons, which is exactly what is happening. More people die from those acts than from terrorism, and more die in the USA (pro Capita) than almost anywhere else (in civilized societies) because of it.
If that type of attack had no impact on the perception of owning automatic weapons then I can't think of anything that would.
So still more people dying from the results of gun ownership than from terrorism, would inspire people to prefer even more guns and (accidental) deaths?
A bold idea, how about reducing the reasons for terrorism ... and reducing the bigger threat of gun ownership.
Cheers,
Bart
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Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.
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Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.
Russ,
I hope you are not suggesting that they would not have taken place if guns had been allowed there?
What's next, gunslinging citizens killing other citizens when trying to hit a gunman, or are they all gunmen, let's shoot everybody holding a gun then, just to be, eh, safe?
Cheers,
Bart
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Genie broke the lamp.
Rob C
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Not much can be done because of the gun lobby in the US. They have managed to get laws past that absolve them of all liability in cases such as this one in Orlando. Imagine if you could sue a company for wrongful death because of the use of it's product; they would go bankrupt the next day. Can't do this in the US of A. Guns are thought of as a citizen's right and until that mindset changes it will be difficult to do much.
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In answer to the OP, nothing will change. If nothing changed after 20+ children were shot at an elementary school a couple of years back, why would anything change now.
A good but depressing read on the subject: Culture of the Gun. (https://www.amazon.ca/Arms-Culture-Credo-J-Somerset/dp/1771960280)
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Sure Alan, and if you get hit by a Honda and die your survivors should be able to sue Honda? The problem isn't the guns. The problem is the people. Holding manufacturers responsible for what people do with their product is an asinine idea.
And, Bart, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. For years I've thought about the Virginia Tech shooting. A professor barred the door to the shooter long enough for his students to get out and then got killed himself. As far as I'm concerned every professor in every college should be required to carry a gun and be required to qualify on the range regularly, just like I used to have to do. And the bar in Orlando should have had armed guards, or else some of the people in the crowd should have been armed. People like this attacker always are going to be able get hold of guns. It's a lucky thing his bomb didn't go off. By the time he shot one or two people he should have been killed by somebody who was armed.
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I've said this before, maybe even on these pages. Once you reach the point where you advocate that teachers in schools need to carry armed weapons, shouldn't that be the big red flag that makes everyone stop and rethink all the steps that were taken in the past that got you to this point?
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Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.
that is absolute bullshit, spread by the pro gun crowd.
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"When Americans think about deaths from guns, we tend to focus on homicides. But the problem of gun suicide is inescapable: More than 60 percent of people in this country who die from guns die by suicide".
Gun deaths are mainly suicides (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html?_r=0)
Sorry American gun owners but you are more likely to kill yourself than a baddie with a gun.
Gun culture in America is a problem.
Grrrr.
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Sure Alan, and if you get hit by a Honda and die your survivors should be able to sue Honda? The problem isn't the guns. The problem is the people. Holding manufacturers responsible for what people do with their product is an asinine idea.
And, Bart, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. For years I've thought about the Virginia Tech shooting. A professor barred the door to the shooter long enough for his students to get out and then got killed himself. As far as I'm concerned every professor in every college should be required to carry a gun and be required to qualify on the range regularly, just like I used to have to do. And the bar in Orlando should have had armed guards, or else some of the people in the crowd should have been armed. People like this attacker always are going to be able get hold of guns. It's a lucky thing his bomb didn't go off. By the time he shot one or two people he should have been killed by somebody who was armed.
actually we do hold manufactures liable for what their customers are doing with their products.
tobacco
drug manufacturers pushing doctors for over prescribing their drugs
your analogy is so flawed that is laughable.
you are the problem
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Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.
bollocks
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkxTjU9VAAEkcCV?format=jpg&name=large)
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http://thepoliticalcarnival.net/2012/12/20/cartoons-of-the-day-nras-meaningful-contributions/
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Holding manufacturers responsible for what people do with their product is an asinine idea.
In principle, I agree. However, cars are designed to transport people, whereas guns are designed to ..., well, not to water the flowers, that's for sure.
Guns are never a solution, and at best a very very last resort. For it to be a last resort, the other issues need to be addressed first. Like, but that a deep one, why do people shoot (or otherwise harm) other people? Also, because there is a significant correlation in the USA, but not e.g. in Switzerland, between gun ownership and gun killings, Why is that the case?
Also, looking at a bigger picture, although maybe I'm wrong but I did predict things like the Orlando massacre in an earlier thread (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=105652.msg870956#msg870956). I hope I'm wrong, but there is probably more to come now that it's becoming clear who will be the candidates for the Presidency.
Maybe a wall isn't such a bad idea, to keep the gun toting people in, that is ...
Sorry for the folk getting trapped though. Go vote?
Cheers,
Bart
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I keep struggling with American politics.
This massacre was a clear case of homophobia, nothing to do with terrorism.
Just saying… however you should keep guns out of the hands of …
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I keep struggling with American politics.
This massacre was a clear case of homophobia, nothing to do with terrorism.
Just saying… however you should keep guns out of the hands of …
The US government was aware of the radical beliefs that the shooter held several years ago. But in fact he was working as a sub-contractor for the Dept. of Homeland Security, relocating illegal aliens. Well the news agencies have stated that the killer self identified as a follower of ISIS. Are you saying that ISIS isn't a terrorist organization. And I don't think they limit their kill list to homosexuals. I hear they're not so nice to Shia or Christians, or Zoroastrians.
As far as gun control, I believe the French are pretty restrictive on gun ownership but that didn't do much for the people in that theater. They just had to stay there and wait their turn to be murdered. Pretty dismal fate. All the places in the US with the most hand gun violence have the most restrictive gun laws (namely cities like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta). I think the expression that sums it up best is "when you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns." Some people prefer to give themselves a sporting chance at survival. I can't really blame them.
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Notwithstanding the subject, please keep this discussion civil.
At this point further inflammation with the use of derogatory language toward other posters is to be avoided
Chris
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In Australia we have just marked the "Port Arthur Massacre" of 28–29 April 1996 in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded. Since then we have had gun control started by a conservative government. We have had no mass shootings since then.
With regrets,
Can I lock this link Chris?
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Since it is pretty obvious that free guns results in a high number of deaths globally, is there more to the topic than the selfishness from those guys who want to protect themselves with guns at the cost of the lifes of unknown children somewhere else?
Cheers,
Bernard
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The US government was aware of the radical beliefs that the shooter held several years ago. But in fact he was working as a sub-contractor for the Dept. of Homeland Security, relocating illegal aliens. Well the news agencies have stated that the killer self identified as a follower of ISIS. Are you saying that ISIS isn't a terrorist organization. And I don't think they limit their kill list to homosexuals. I hear they're not so nice to Shia or Christians, or Zoroastrians.
As far as gun control, I believe the French are pretty restrictive on gun ownership but that didn't do much for the people in that theater. They just had to stay there and wait their turn to be murdered. Pretty dismal fate. All the places in the US with the most hand gun violence have the most restrictive gun laws (namely cities like Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta). I think the expression that sums it up best is "when you outlaw guns, only outlaws have guns." Some people prefer to give themselves a sporting chance at survival. I can't really blame them.
The automatic guns were smuggle into france illegally. And the guns found in the cities you named are usually bought in surrounding states that have very lax gun purchasing laws.
And this saying is completely vapid of any intellect. I think it quite amusing that people such as you, think its easy to pull a firearm out and shoot another human.
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The killer was an Islamic terrorist who called 911 emergency services before the attack to tell the police of his sworn allegiance to al-Baghdadi and ISIS. He was a guard licensed to carry weapons. Blaming this on lack of gun control or as a criminal act is just ignoring the fact that we are at war with these people. Have you all forgotten that 911 terror that killed 3000 was committed with airplanes. They will use bombs if guns aren't available, or planes or anything else, and will use weapons of mass destruction if and when they get their hands on them. Our leaders are trying to divert our attention from their failure to protect us by ignoring we are at war and blaming gun control and hateful people as the source of the problem. Don't let them fool you.
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Wake up people bad people will always get guns. Wether its the legal way or non legal. Criminals wether they are gangsters, terrorists or just bad intent. If they can't get guns they will make bombs with just simple ingredients you can buy. Do I believe they should get a gun like this at a gun store NO.
We should take away knives they kill more people but not in mass shootings. He's a crazy terrorist, the only good one is a dead one.
Australia when they took away the guns, gun crime went up by 1200%. So thats not the answer. BAD PEOPLE WILL DO BAD THINGS.
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that is just a red herring response, this man just before the shooting got bery upset at two men kissing in public. He was a guard that was allowed to only carry while on duty. Not calling this a criminal act is what it is.
This has nothing to do with the government not protecting us. You are now entering the arena of conspiracy theories. This kind of shooting occurred before 9/11 and will continue to happen. We live in a society now that hatred and violence against those we hate i becoming more acceptable. Just look at the rhetoric and vileness of Donald Trump. Romney, came out a few days ago and beautifully put it out in plain simple words.
Trump is endorsing and promoting trickle down bigotry.
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that is just a red herring response, this man just before the shooting got bery upset at two men kissing in public. He was a guard that was allowed to only carry while on duty. Not calling this a criminal act is what it is.
This has nothing to do with the government not protecting us. You are now entering the arena of conspiracy theories. This kind of shooting occurred before 9/11 and will continue to happen. We live in a society now that hatred and violence against those we hate i becoming more acceptable. Just look at the rhetoric and vileness of Donald Trump. Romney, came out a few days ago and beautifully put it out in plain simple words.
Trump is endorsing and promoting trickle down bigotry.
can you actually cite a source where gun cfimes rose in australia?
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Really!
There were 372 mass shootings in the US in 2015, killing 475 people and wounding 1,870.
There were 64 school shootings in 2015.
Some 13,286 people were killed in the US by firearms in 2015.
The number of gun murders per capita in the US in 2012 - the most recent year for comparable statistics - was nearly 30 times that in the UK.
Forget terrorists, you are doing a much better job of killing yourselves than they are. Yes, I did mention that if you own a gun you are more likely to kill yourself with it than anything else.
Source the BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34996604)
So what will it take for Americans to take gun control seriously? I don't know!
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The per capita rate of gun ownership is higher in Canada, yet Canada doesn't suffer anywhere near the same amount of firearms-related deaths or mass shootings.
Whilst I'd certainly back some form of gun control, something else is wrong in the US.
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actually we are number 1 with gun ownership with 112 guns per capita, canada is 12 with 30 per capita.
And here in the US, the states with the most lax gun control laws have more murders per capita.
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
South Carolina
Maryland
Nevada
Delaware
Alabama
Georgia
Tennessee
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Whilst I'd certainly back some form of gun control, something else is wrong in the US.
Yes, starting with the fact as recently as last December, 54 Senate Republicans blocked a bill that would have denied convicted felons, the mentally ill and anyone on a terrorist watch list ( 'a person of interest' in FBI terminology) the legal right to buy weapons and explosives. Those Republicans included all four recent Rep Presidential nominee candidates Rubio, Cruz, Paul and Graham. They also blocked a bill which would have allowed for expanded background checks.
Such is the influence of the NRA - and we're still discussing ... what ?
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actually we are number 1 with gun ownership with 112 guns per capita, canada is 12 with 30 per capita.
My mistake
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actually we are number 1 with gun ownership with 112 guns per capita, canada is 12 with 30 per capita.
And here in the US, the states with the most lax gun control laws have more murders per capita.
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
South Carolina
Maryland
Nevada
Delaware
Alabama
Georgia
Tennessee
Just in case I don't get this: are you saying that, in the States, there are 112 guns for each person? (And some think photographers are a bit nuts in their spending habits...)
Why does anyone need more than one, or perhaps two - just in case they don't have time to reload, in which latter case, they'd probably end up dead anyway?
As for suicide: well, that's their own decision, and nobody needs a gun to do that - it's just neater and more certain than jumping off a low building.
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"As for suicide: well, that's their own decision, and nobody needs a gun to do that - it's just neater and more certain than jumping off a low building".
Rob you are right, my brother killed himself with over the counter drugs. It changed my life forever. If you own a gun in the US you will be more likely to kill yourself with it than anything else.
With remorse,
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"But the problem of gun suicide is inescapable: More than 60 percent of people in this country who die from guns die by suicide".
I am wondering why this is a problem. If someone wishes to commit suicide, that is their decision. Since 1984, suicide has been decriminalized in the US and we have not seen any change in the suicide rates.
Suicide is a contentious topic and people have strong opinions on both sides of the issue. It is a decision that has a profound impact on the family/friends. But ultimately, it is the decision of the individual.
According to the CDC, it is only in the age group 18-24 where homicide rates are higher than suicide and even those rates are pretty close. In the other age groups, suicide rates are higher (in some cases much higher) than homicide. Suicide is, if you pardon the morbid pun, a fact of life in the US and I imagine in other countries too.
While I was very sad when someone close to me committed suicide, I also respect their decision.
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"While I was very sad when someone close to me committed suicide, I also respect their decision".
Obviously suicide is still an abstract concept to you. It can turn your world around in many ways, it has mine. Respect the survivors.
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Right Bart, and it's probably worth mentioning that some of the most horrendous shootings have taken place in "gun free" zones.
Yes i guess this bar was also a "gun free" zone until...
I do not think the problem would have been less if all the persons in the bar were carrying a gun...
And usually the atmosphere in the bar with all these armed people would be a different one...
Not the atmosphere they were looking for.
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"While I was very sad when someone close to me committed suicide, I also respect their decision".
Obviously suicide is still an abstract concept to you. It can turn your world around in many ways, it has mine. Respect the survivors.
There is room to respect both, is there not? I am not sure you think suicide is an abstract concept.
My years on the EMS squads have moved suicide from the abstract to the objective.
It is not a pleasant topic, but one that also should not be marginalized.
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Fifty plus dead, what does it take for Americans to take gun control seriously.
Gun control (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jun/12/florida-nightclub-shooting-terrorism-suspect-updates?CMP=soc_567).
WTF,
this specific case is not about the gun control - this is about reaping the results of what the country did in the mid-east since 1950s...
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The killer was an Islamic terrorist who called 911 emergency services before the attack to tell the police of his sworn allegiance to al-Baghdadi and ISIS. He was a guard licensed to carry weapons. Blaming this on lack of gun control or as a criminal act is just ignoring the fact that we are at war with these people. Have you all forgotten that 911 terror that killed 3000 was committed with airplanes. They will use bombs if guns aren't available, or planes or anything else, and will use weapons of mass destruction if and when they get their hands on them. Our leaders are trying to divert our attention from their failure to protect us by ignoring we are at war and blaming gun control and hateful people as the source of the problem. Don't let them fool you.
Might be getting ahead of ourselves. All I've seen so far in the media is that the shooter self-identified as an ISIS supporter. He can self-identify as Batman too, doesn't mean a thing. There's no doubt that he terrorized people in Orlando but it's a big leap to call him an Islamic terrorist (at this point). I haven't seen any connection to any international organization that is using terror for political reasons.
And frankly, if the best that such a terrorist organization can do is kill unarmed partiers in a bar, as awful as that is, they are hardly the existential threat to the country that the government is failing to protect you from, are they?
This morning there's a new report of a guy with an arsenal who was headed to the L.A. Pride Parade (in a white Acura, they said). Is he a terrorist too? Maybe he is in the strictest sense of the word, but that is not what is understood to be terrorism by most people. Anyway, judging by early reports, this one appears to be just another in a long line of nut jobs with a really dangerous gun and lots of ammo.
It's bizarre to me that the US cannot pass legislation to prohibit non-hunting related weapons with large magazines from getting into the hands of people. From one entry in the this thread, they can't even introduce a waiting period to purchase such weapons, not even for ex-criminals or people with troubled histories. I guess the "other side" views this as the thin edge of the wedge. If you prohibit insane crooks from getting de facto machine guns, then law-abiding suburbanites are next, or so goes the thinking. If this were the plot line of a Hollywood movie, no one would believe it, it is that absurd.
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In Australia we have just marked the "Port Arthur Massacre" of 28–29 April 1996 in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded. Since then we have had gun control started by a conservative government. We have had no mass shootings since then.
You will have.
In a different thread I suggested it's time to stop worrying about bulls and start worrying about bullshit. This thread illustrates how right I was.
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The killer was an Islamic terrorist who called 911 emergency services before the attack to tell the police of his sworn allegiance to al-Baghdadi and ISIS. He was a guard licensed to carry weapons. Blaming this on lack of gun control or as a criminal act is just ignoring the fact that we are at war with these people. Have you all forgotten that 911 terror that killed 3000 was committed with airplanes. They will use bombs if guns aren't available, or planes or anything else, and will use weapons of mass destruction if and when they get their hands on them. Our leaders are trying to divert our attention from their failure to protect us by ignoring we are at war and blaming gun control and hateful people as the source of the problem. Don't let them fool you.
Too late, Alan. They're already fooled. Just read what they've written.
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Actions speak louder than words.
No mass deaths, thirty years since a mass shooting in Australia, gun control works.
Port Arthur was a wake up call for Australia.
1,052 mass shootings in 1,066 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like.
Fifty plus deaths in a homophobic rampage.
What works? Gun control has worked in Australia and in most of the western world. What doesn't work, America probably should work out the answer.
Grumpy old man,
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Just in case I don't get this: are you saying that, in the States, there are 112 guns for each person? (And some think photographers are a bit nuts in their spending habits...)
The numbers are gun ownership per 100 residents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country).
Cheers,
Bart
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See what I mean Alan?
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Post deleted by author.
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Post deleted by author.
he got this from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
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I don't understand why it's a struggle to "understand him." He was yelling "Allahu Akbar!" God is greatest!, as he shot down the people in that club. What's to understand? He was simply carrying out the commands of the Koran and its associated writings regarding homosexuals. You guys need to read that book before you make comments that miss the point. Best to do some research before you pontificate on a subject.
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Russ, your own bible commands the same thing, so what's your point?
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Russ, your own bible commands the same thing, so what's your point?
he is WASP and they are not... so he is right and they are wrong.
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I don't understand why it's a struggle to "understand him." He was yelling "Allahu Akbar!" God is greatest!, as he shot down the people in that club. What's to understand? He was simply carrying out the commands of the Koran and its associated writings regarding homosexuals. You guys need to read that book before you make comments that miss the point. Best to do some research before you pontificate on a subject.
The first prohibition against homosexuality occurs in the Old Testament that is revered by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Orthodox Judaism and some sects of Christianity continue to follow this prohibition. Your call to do research is ill thought out in this regard.
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he is WASP and they are not... so he is right and they are wrong.
I haven't heard about any Christians going into a bar yelling "God is great" and shooting up the place. Have you? The last two comments are absurdly beside the point. There probably was a time when the original Israelis killed homosexuals, but I doubt that's happened in the last 1300 or so years.
When was the last time you heard about a gay pride parade in Saudi Arabia? If you run across one, please let me know.
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This thread is absolutely mind-bogglingly amazing: it was an act of Islamic terrorism and everyone is discussing... gun control??? As if a determined terrorist would not be able to gain access to whatever arms he needs even if guns are outlawed (like in France)???
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I haven't heard about any Christians going into a bar yelling "God is great" and shooting up the place. Have you? The last two comments are absurdly beside the point. There probably was a time when the original Israelis killed homosexuals, but I doubt that's happened in the last 1300 or so years.
When was the last time you heard about a gay pride parade in Saudi Arabia? If you run across one, please let me know.
i hear preachers all of the time here in the united states saying that gays should be put to death. I saw a young white man walk into a church and kill innocent people. Because of racial bigotry. In Colorado, a man walked into PP, and murdered people in the name of religion. Doctors have been murdered because they choose to help women terminate their pregnancies. We see white extremist christian groups pointing firearms at federal officials and the same group threatened violence when they occupied a federal park in Oregon. We see christian countries in Africa making being gay a death crime and those laws were written by an american pastor named Scott Lively. So do not try to claim that this is just a problem with islam.
Your bible explicitly sanctions the killing of homosexuals, are you know saying god was wrong in this commandment?
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I haven't heard about any Christians going into a bar yelling "God is great" and shooting up the place. Have you? The last two comments are absurdly beside the point. There probably was a time when the original Israelis killed homosexuals, but I doubt that's happened in the last 1300 or so years.
When was the last time you heard about a gay pride parade in Saudi Arabia? If you run across one, please let me know.
The Oklahoma City federal building was blown up with 168 dead by two disaffected anti-government Christians.
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Religion and politics are a very uneasy mix on this photography site, even in the Cofffee Corner.
The topic will be locked if it descends further into the inflammatory mix it threatens
And having given that warning, another: you will be banned permanently for inflammatory statements surrounding religion and sexuality - at my discretion and without appeal.
I urge you to think twice or three times before you hit Post
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This thread is absolutely mind-bogglingly amazing: it was an act of Islamic terrorism and everyone is discussing... gun control??? As if a determined terrorist would not be able to gain access to whatever arms he needs even if guns are outlawed (like in France)???
Slobodan, the problem, isn't so clear-cut, mainly because it just flows conveniently into the general scenario of gun killings. That way, it's easier for people to show their horror at the events, whereas if they were to voice their opinions in any other manner, they would almost certainly come under fire from the PC brigade. About an hour ago I watched a 'debate' on France 24 tv and on the panel were two guys representing different aspects of gay rights, one was French, the other of Arabic origin. Both were absolutely disinterested in anything to do with religion as per Islam, both were concerned that the press didn't scream out for gay rights and that, I'm afraid, was all they gave a hoot about. A third man on the panel was American, some Republican official, and he was totally outgunned, and also too hesitant to be of any value.
What wasn't happening was anyone saying that they deplored the gay movement. The assumption (of being gay) was that it was the most natural thing in the world. Something called Stonewall (a street march) was touted as happening later on, delayed because of the 'football'; talk about gay ads!
Just before that, I watched Ms Clinton speaking in Ohio. She is one capable public speaker! No umms, errs, or visible reference notes, and she never missed a measured beat. I envied her her abilities! As a public person with potential for the highest office, she was utterly believable. Contrast her with Trump, and it is quite frightening. I make no comment on the policies - I don't know enough about them - but from the aspect of thinking of Trump in international political situations... oh dear.
Our (your) public figures really do need to be seen to know how to deport themselves responsibly.
But back to the killings. There will always be mad people; they will always find the means to their ends; if this particular guy was a died-in-the-wool ISIS chap, he made a brilliant choice of target: it has caused divisions in the 'host' nation and increased the dislikes/fears/suspicions of one set of moralities towards another. If he was a 'lone wolf' then so what: he espoused the ISIS cause very loudly and clearly, it seems. Regarding gun laws: there clearly aren't any - that mean anything, that is. The NRA obviously owns both government and redneck souls. Invest in Stetsons; sales are sure to go up.
I also learned a new acronym: LGBT - sounds like something to do with the railways. First time it's crossed my ears. I am having difficulty with the B, but I'm sure I'll find out what it stands for in time.
Rob
P.S. I have just read Chris's post: I trust this one of mine is not thought of as infammatory. It's not meant to be - just my reading of what's happening right now, and why there will be no solutions any time soon, and how everything gets taken over by a vested interest, however tragic the event..
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The Oklahoma City federal building was blown up with 168 dead by two disaffected anti-government Christians.
Alan, maybe you haven't actually read about the Oklahoma City bombing, so I'll let you off on this one. The bombing had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that these guys were Christians.
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I'll be honest, I didn't think this thread would go well and I asked Chris to take it down.
Once again, the Port Arthur massacre was a wake up call for Australia and it's anniversary is painful. However non-partisan politics has stopped mass gun violence from happening again.
What will it take in America?
Gun sales up (https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/election-gun-sales/)
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I'll be honest, I didn't think this thread would go well and I asked Chris to take it down.
Once again, the Port Arthur massacre was a wake up call for Australia and it's anniversary is painful. However partisan politics has stopped mass gun violence from happening again.
What will it take in America?
Gun sales up (https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/election-gun-sales/)
It doesn't take Chris to close it down; you can do that yourself.
Rob C
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I know you believe that, Tom, but just keep watching. These guys want Saladin to come back and they want to establish a Caliphate over the whole world.
I spent some time across the runway from an Australian fighter squadron detachment at Ubon Ratchathani in 1964. I got to know those guys and I know your military will respond appropriately -- with guns blazing if they're still allowed to have guns.