Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JoeKitchen on May 29, 2016, 09:44:53 pm
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I know that you can shoot from live view with the IQ3 100.
However, if someone eventually developed an electric leaf shutter for a technical camera that worked in the same fashion as a leaf shutter in DSLRs (that being it always remains open until you press the release, then closes, fires, and opens again), would you be able to shoot from live in this set up as well?
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Arca has such a shutter in the Dex system, which could add on to your R. The Alpa FPS and the Hcam sport them as well. I don't see why there would be any issues with live view. Actually, I'm not sure what you're asking. Whether or not LiveView would be usable with such a shutter, or whether you can trigger an exposure during LiveView?
-CB
EDIT: Oh... you said "Leaf Shutter" yeah, I don't see that ever happening. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I think they'll always be focal plane shutters.
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... whether you can trigger an exposure during LiveView?
-CB
EDIT: Oh... you said "Leaf Shutter" yeah, I don't see that ever happening. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I think they'll always be focal plane shutters.
This is what I am pretty much asking. If I shot a lifestyle image on my Arca, would I be able to view live view on my laptop and shoot at the same time? Working pretty much like I would on a dSLR, viewing the image, then when I press the release, the shutter closes, fires and opens again. Does the Arca FPS system work like this?
I am guessing this should be the case, but I would not be surprised if there was some kind of firmware in the IQ3 100 that only allows for it when working with the XF system.
Also, I am kind of disappointed that no one in furthering the development of electronic leaf shutters and focusing instead on FPS. I realize that there are advantages to FPS, but there are many advantages to leaf shutters as well.
I would rather have a leaf shutter if given the option.
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What you are asking is a function of the MFDB used, not of the shutter... I guess if one is using a back in LV mode and fires his Rollei shutter through the Rollei Control S the shutter will operate normally... it's the back that won't record the image. What you mean by "develop electronic shutters further"? What do they luck? FPS shutters are made so that one can have a shutter if a lens without leaf shutter (or ability to take one) is used... No other reason...
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What you are asking is a function of the MFDB used, not of the shutter... I guess if one is using a back in LV mode and fires his Rollei shutter through the Rollei Control S the shutter will operate normally... it's the back that won't record the image. What you mean by "develop electronic shutters further"? What do they luck? FPS shutters are made so that one can have a shutter if a lens without leaf shutter (or ability to take one) is used... No other reason...
The current electronic leaf shutters shuttesr are not so great. The Rollie shutter that was in development but never came to market looked very promising, but it seems no one is taking the reigns on developing the current offerings further.
The ones on the market now are not field friendly with all of the cables and controllers.
But like I mentioned before, whether or not the back would actually take the picture could be very well dependent on how the back is designed to operate in Live View. It could very well be that the new IQ3 100 would only work in Live View on the XF body.
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The current electronic leaf shutters shuttesr are not so great. The Rollie shutter that was in development but never came to market looked very promising, but it seems no one is taking the reigns on developing the current offerings further.
The ones on the market now are not field friendly with all of the cables and controllers.
But like I mentioned before, whether or not the back would actually take the picture could be very well dependent on how the back is designed to operate in Live View. It could very well be that the new IQ3 100 would only work in Live View on the XF body.
I still don't understand... a shutter needs one to "tell" it the speed and aperture that will be used and also provide power from the battery... Therefore a cable is needed to connect it with a "control box" (or command) that can do that... Then the control must be connected to the back as to synchronize/activate it... Usually these controls are in the camera body for a DSLR...
Also, what is the Rollei shutter that was in development and never came out? I'm unaware of that!
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I still don't understand... a shutter needs one to "tell" it the speed and aperture that will be used and also provide power from the battery... Therefore a cable is needed to connect it with a "control box" (or command) that can do that... Then the control must be connected to the back as to synchronize/activate it... Usually these controls are in the camera body for a DSLR...
Also, what is the Rollei shutter that was in development and never came out? I'm unaware of that!
All of the leaf shutters for tech cameras available now use thick proprietary cables and controllers that are large and bulky. Not to mention need separate battery supply. Too much to carry around.
The (next generation) Rollie shutter used a Mini USB cable to power & control the shutter through a smart phone app. All you needed was one commonly available thin cable and your phone to work the shutter (in addition to the sync to the back, which you already need anyway). It did use a lot of power, but the add-on batteries for smart phones (like the Mophie) solved that problem.
Rollie could never fully work out the bugs in the iPhone software before going bully up.
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It's true most view cameras are of "archaic" design, but OTOH, this makes them cross compatible with all shorts of different lenses and backs... IMO one doesn't need an electronic shutter with a view camera in anything other than using a multishot back as to shoot stills... The bad thing is of course that then one has to go through the trouble to start changing the shutters.. But I guess if one uses a P1 one back he doesn't need an electronic shutter at all... OTOH I see it all changing in the near future... I see FF mirrorless dominating the area and replacing MFDBs altogether... especially as one would then need no cables at all and even no leaf shutter in his lenses. I also expect multishot to be widely offered among mirrorless in the near future and then the lenses used to be mainly out of the existing base of MF cameras.
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I've been pretty happy with the focal plane shutter that is built in to my Sony digital back.
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I've been pretty happy with the focal plane shutter that is built in to my Sony digital back.
A couple of questions please Chris... 1. Why the 7RII and not the α7ΙΙ? Wouldn't the larger pixels be better on a view camera? 2.How much "throw" (distance covered in mm for a full 360 degree turn) does the focusing knob of the MF-2 has and how much the one on the Universallis? Thanks.
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Hi,
Chris uses the A7rII with Hasselblad and Canon lenses mainly and those lenses have no large beam angles. The A7rII has BSI and that might be a slight advantage, as it makes for shallower pits.
Best regards
Erik
A couple of questions please Chris... 1. Why the 7RII and not the α7ΙΙ?
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Last October at the large photo gear show in NYC I talked to a man at Rodenstock about electronic shutters. He showed me an item that he said was about a year away from market. It was about the size of the Schneider electronic shutter (smaller than my Rollei shutters), was to go to around 1000th of a second, and be controllable by an iPhone I think. Basically it sounded and looked like the piece that Rollei was working on. No idea where it is at now.
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Last October at the large photo gear show in NYC I talked to a man at Rodenstock about electronic shutters. He showed me an item that he said was about a year away from market. It was about the size of the Schneider electronic shutter (smaller than my Rollei shutters), was to go to around 1000th of a second, and be controllable by an iPhone I think. Basically it sounded and looked like the piece that Rollei was working on. No idea where it is at now.
That sounds pretty awesome!
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That sounds pretty awesome!
Yeah, but Joe... why use an electronic shutter at all with a single shot back? and more... 1/1000 shutter on a view camera? ....Why? Also... I think its best to stick with MF lenses than "special" view camera lenses if you insist on using the Sony 100MP sensor on an MFDB with the Actus... OTOH, I also think that you'd be much better off if you would use a Sony α7 for the particular job... If you are looking for the absolute best though, the Leica SL would be it... Both mirrorless won't beat (by little) an old Kodak 22/39mp sensor or a Dalsa 22/33mp sensor, but they don't need shutters, don't need a new series of lenses and would beat the above mentioned MFDBs for accurate focusing and workflow handling (both of which are of major importance for one to achieve an awesome result with a view camera)...
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Hi,
Chris uses the A7rII with Hasselblad and Canon lenses mainly and those lenses have no large beam angles. The A7rII has BSI and that might be a slight advantage, as it makes for shallower pits.
Best regards
Erik
I know your opinion as you've mentioned it before in other conversations (which I don't agree with as there more aspects to consider)... I would still like to hear from Chris though who is an experienced working pro on architectural photography.
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Hi Theodoros,
Yes, I would be interested in Chris responding to the question, too…
On the other hand, I have pretty much the same lenses that Chris uses, except the Canon 17/4 TS and I also use a couple other lenses (*). I actually shoot those lenses on a technical camera, sort of. The HCam doesn't give 20 mm of usable shift, perhaps 12-15 mm, depending on lens.
I own both an A7rII and an A7II, although I see the A7II as a backup and have not done a lot of comparisons. So, I have some experience with the gear you are discussing.
Best regards
Erik
(*) Chris now also owns the Canon 11-24/4 lens. I don't have that one either.
The lenses I have used or tested on the HCam are: Pentax 67 45/4, Distagon 40/4 CF, Distagon 60/3.5 CF, Planar 100/3.5 CF, Canon 16-35/4L, Canon 24-105/4L, Contax 28-85/3.3-4 and Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5. In addition, I also have the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII, but I seldom use it on the HCam as it can do T&S on it's own.
I know your opinion as you've mentioned it before in other conversations (which I don't agree with as there more aspects to consider)... I would still like to hear from Chris though who is an experienced working pro on architectural photography.
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Hi Theodoros,
Yes, I would be interested in Chris responding to the question, too…
On the other hand, I have pretty much the same lenses that Chris uses, except the Canon 17/4 TS and I also use a couple other lenses (*). I actually shoot those lenses on a technical camera, sort of. The HCam doesn't give 20 mm of usable shift, perhaps 12-15 mm, depending on lens.
I own both an A7rII and an A7II, although I see the A7II as a backup and have not done a lot of comparisons. So, I have some experience with the gear you are discussing.
Best regards
Erik
(*) Chris now also owns the Canon 11-24/4 lens. I don't have that one either.
The lenses I have used or tested on the HCam are: Pentax 67 45/4, Distagon 40/4 CF, Distagon 60/3.5 CF, Planar 100/3.5 CF, Canon 16-35/4L, Canon 24-105/4L, Contax 28-85/3.3-4 and Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5. In addition, I also have the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII, but I seldom use it on the HCam as it can do T&S on it's own.
The H cam can't tilt or swing... tilting and swinging affects lens to sensor relation more than shifting does... I suspect that Chris' usual subjects are different in their approach than mine and that they require little or no tilting... That would also explain the use of the M2 F as it only has tilts and swings on the front standard and only shifts on the rear... This is no disadvantage on a view camera, as (I'm sure) Chris knows that it's wrong to use shifts combined with tilts if the nodal point of the lens isn't positioned exactly at the center of the "tilt arc's circle" (as it happens with the lenses that Chris uses...that's why I want to hear from Chris...
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Hi,
It tilts eleven degrees, one of the main reasons I bought it...
Just to say, this thread is not about the A7-series but about live view on the IQ3 100, so let us not kidnap it with A7r discussions. The A7rII can be very useful, if you need up to 42 MP and plan to use SLR type lenses, but it is no a replacement for a full frame 645 digital back at 100MP.
Best regards
Erik
The H cam can't tilt or swing... tilting and swinging affects lens to sensor relation more than shifting does... I suspect that Chris' usual subjects are different in their approach than mine and that they require little or no tilting... That would also explain the use of the M2 F as it only has tilts and swings on the front standard and only shifts on the rear... This is no disadvantage on a view camera, as (I'm sure) Chris knows that it's wrong to use shifts combined with tilts if the nodal point of the lens isn't positioned exactly at the center of the "tilt arc's circle" (as it happens with the lenses that Chris uses...that's why I want to hear from Chris...
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Just curious, what are the advantages of a leaf shutter on a tech system instead of a focal plane shutter? I'm assuming that it has something to do with studio flash photography?
The only advantage I see for my own landscape photography is that you can have really short flange distances, like seen on the SK28XL, but the current sensor designs can't handle those anyway.
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Just curious, what are the advantages of a leaf shutter on a tech system instead of a focal plane shutter? I'm assuming that it has something to do with studio flash photography?
The only advantage I see for my own landscape photography is that you can have really short flange distances, like seen on the SK28XL, but the current sensor designs can't handle those anyway.
Elimination of shutter vibration...... I have never used a focal plane shutter that didn't exhibit some sort of vibration.
Victor
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Same here, lower vibrations. Even the best FPS produce a vibration whereas leaf shutters do not. This makes a big difference when you need to layer captures in post.
Plus, a flash sync of 1/125 is not that fast. Sure, for architecture, I would never be that fast. But for shooting lifestyle on a tech camera, it would be nice to have it.
With the live view feature of the new back, I could in theory use my computer as the view finder as long as the back captures in live view mode and the shutters work like they would on a dSLR.
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Hi,
I think the IQ3 100 has electronic first curtain and it is at least somewhat supported on the XF. EFSC eliminates vibration from first curtain. There will be some vibration from the second curtain still. EFSC is a workable technique to keep shutter speed down.
It may be that someone builds a fully integrated electronically controlled leaf shutter. It takes a lot of R&D, I would think, so it may be expensive. No rocket science, though, MF DSLRs often have electronically controlled leaf shutters.
Best regards
Erik
Same here, lower vibrations. Even the best FPS produce a vibration whereas leaf shutters do not. This makes a big difference when you need to layer captures in post.
Plus, a flash sync of 1/125 is not that fast. Sure, for architecture, I would never be that fast. But for shooting lifestyle on a tech camera, it would be nice to have it.
With the live view feature of the new back, I could in theory use my computer as the view finder as long as the back captures in live view mode and the shutters work like they would on a dSLR.
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Electronic first curtain is ON when the XF is in mirror up or Vibration reduction mode. There is no way I know of to turn it off.
The best way to ensure the focal is not firing, is use the XF camera controls, (from the LCD on the back), have the camera in LIve View (focal is up) and then fire the camera via camera controls, which can be used in vibration reduction mode or mirror up. Thus only the Leaf shutter in the lens fires. Both very quite and no shake, either from mirror or shutter. Have to have a LS lens however.
There is no wired remote out yet, one is coming soon I have been told and a few users have actually seen a prototype.
Paul C
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Hi Paul,
Thanks for explaining.
Electronic first curtain is ON when the XF is in mirror up or Vibration reduction mode. There is no way I know of to turn it off.
The best way to ensure the focal is not firing, is use the XF camera controls, (from the LCD on the back), have the camera in LIve View (focal is up) and then fire the camera via camera controls, which can be used in vibration reduction mode or mirror up. Thus only the Leaf shutter in the lens fires. Both very quite and no shake, either from mirror or shutter. Have to have a LS lens however.
There is no wired remote out yet, one is coming soon I have been told and a few users have actually seen a prototype.
Paul C
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This all sounds nice, however all of it is on the XF platform.
I would prefer to shoot using a tech camera for perspective and focal plane control through shifts and tilt/swing though.
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The best solution Phase would have for both, is the Alpa FPS, as it has quite a lot of capabilities. I would not be surprised to see a future product more closely integrated with the FPS in the future, maybe even at Photokina. Allowing both the FPS and a leaf shutter in lens, maybe an electronic version also.
As I am an Arca rm3di user, can't afford to switch. Arca has a similar solution, which was announced at Photokina 2 years ago, so far only the Canon solution has shipped that I am aware of, (Chris Barrett is using it) However I doubt that Arca will ever be able to use the EFC on the IQ100 due to comm issues. Where are Alpa/Phase may be able to work out a solution.
Paul C
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Just curious, what are the advantages of a leaf shutter on a tech system instead of a focal plane shutter? I'm assuming that it has something to do with studio flash photography?
The only advantage I see for my own landscape photography is that you can have really short flange distances, like seen on the SK28XL, but the current sensor designs can't handle those anyway.
None what so ever (for single shot captures)... even if one uses flash, sync speed isn't more than a mirrorless sync speed... Only advantage is if a Multishot back is used, where one can avoid using a focal plane shutter in front of the MFDB and on the same standard, as to eliminate any vibration may be caused by the shutter itself.
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There is no wired remote out yet, one is coming soon I have been told and a few users have actually seen a prototype.
It's available and in stock:
Phase One XF Electronic Release Cable (https://digitaltransitions.com/product/phase-one-xf-electronic-release-3-ft-cable/)
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Oh there is. A huge one. Using a leaf shutter on a tech camera has the same advantages as on the XF. Try using a 90 or 150mm lens at let's say 1/15th with a fps. Do the same with a leaf shutter and you will see the difference.
None what so ever (for single shot captures)... even if one uses flash, sync speed isn't more than a mirrorless sync speed... Only advantage is if a Multishot back is used, where one can avoid using a focal plane shutter in front of the MFDB and on the same standard, as to eliminate any vibration may be caused by the shutter itself.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
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Yeah, but Joe... why use an electronic shutter at all with a single shot back? and more... 1/1000 shutter on a view camera? ....Why? Also... I think its best to stick with MF lenses than "special" view camera lenses if you insist on using the Sony 100MP sensor on an MFDB with the Actus... OTOH, I also think that you'd be much better off if you would use a Sony α7 for the particular job... If you are looking for the absolute best though, the Leica SL would be it... Both mirrorless won't beat (by little) an old Kodak 22/39mp sensor or a Dalsa 22/33mp sensor, but they don't need shutters, don't need a new series of lenses and would beat the above mentioned MFDBs for accurate focusing and workflow handling (both of which are of major importance for one to achieve an awesome result with a view camera)...
Your ability to hijack any thread to further your personal agenda is frightening.
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Oh there is. A huge one. Using a leaf shutter on a tech camera has the same advantages as on the XF. Try using a 90 or 150mm lens at let's say 1/15th with a fps. Do the same with a leaf shutter and you will see the difference.
Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
Have you tried it Chris? I haven't, but I'm sure that there should be no problem as the focal plane shutter would need to be mounted on the frame independently than the MFDB and (surely) with some simple dumping care taken... I don't see how Arca's focal plane shutter for instance could cause any vibration on the back or on the lens...
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Well, Alpa tried it.
www.alpa.ch/de/site/fps-shuttertest (http://www.alpa.ch/de/site/fps-shuttertest)
1/15 sec:
FPS shutter test 1/15 (http://www.alpa.ch/_img/003729.png)
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Anyone tried the IQ100 with the Schneider 60XL and really big fall/shifts? Talking 25mm fall with 15mm L/R shift? Would be interested to know the limits as its image circle and quality are amazing on the IQ260.
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Well, Alpa tried it.
www.alpa.ch/de/site/fps-shuttertest (http://www.alpa.ch/de/site/fps-shuttertest)
1/15 sec:
FPS shutter test 1/15 (http://www.alpa.ch/_img/003729.png)
ALPA is a camera... not a thick frame that has MFDB mounted on one side and a focal plane shutter (in its own housing) on the other...