Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Eldad on May 06, 2016, 02:38:42 am

Title: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Eldad on May 06, 2016, 02:38:42 am
Just joined this web site and looking forward to learning and tapping into the knowledge base :)
I'm after some advice as the title suggests.
My beloved M9 is with Leica at the moment, getting the sensor replaced for the second time, this time though it's the second generation so hopefully no more delaminating.
I really like taking portraits and landscape and the 50mm Summicron is great for portrait but not so good for Landscape (though I have been using it for landscape as well).
I like the fact that the LS is capable of using M and R lenses, especially the latter as they are a lot more affordable :)
My options are:

1. Stay with the m9 and get the 18mm Zeiss later on for landscape (cheaper option)
2. Upgrade to the LS (expensive) and have more Leica lenses (cheaper than M) to choose from later on.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 06, 2016, 06:35:15 am
I would get a Sony a7rII.

it cheaper, has a far better sensor, can take any lens ever made,...

cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: eronald on May 06, 2016, 08:46:13 am
Have you already held an SL in your hand? This is like moving from a compact to a Humvee.

Edmund

Just joined this web site and looking forward to learning and tapping into the knowledge base :)
I'm after some advice as the title suggests.
My beloved M9 is with Leica at the moment, getting the sensor replaced for the second time, this time though it's the second generation so hopefully no more delaminating.
I really like taking portraits and landscape and the 50mm Summicron is great for portrait but not so good for Landscape (though I have been using it for landscape as well).
I like the fact that the LS is capable of using M and R lenses, especially the latter as they are a lot more affordable :)
My options are:

1. Stay with the m9 and get the 18mm Zeiss later on for landscape (cheaper option)
2. Upgrade to the LS (expensive) and have more Leica lenses (cheaper than M) to choose from later on.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: eronald on May 06, 2016, 01:20:24 pm
You have a fab camera.

I'd choose option 1 and spend what I'd saved on travel.

The voice of reason speaks so softly
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: eronald on May 06, 2016, 01:21:08 pm
The voice of reason speaks so softly

i would like a cheap m9
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: TonyVentourisPhotography on May 06, 2016, 03:24:51 pm
I would try an SL first.  Its going to be a different mindset and flow of work.  I had a Leica kit...I sold it.  It was my favorite camera, and the camera that least was able to make the images I am making right now.  No fault of of the camera...it was just the wrong tool for me.  However, I love the M line for what it was.  Rangefinder with excellent manual focus, small, amazing sensor, and great wide angles.  I never used accessory finders...I just learned to wing it.  At the same time, I felt surprised everytime the images were exactly as I intended.  It was a nice surprise...kinda like developing film and seeing perfectly intended exposures. 

The SL will bring a different mentality since you are more capable of seeing what you are shooting, and what your results will be.  Its a more refined experience I think.  You also won't have to deal with rangefinder and lens calibration services.

I dont think one is better than the other...I think Leica just gave their user base a good option for those heavily invested.  Especially if you like to shoot really wide, or above 90mm. 
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: BAB on May 07, 2016, 12:27:10 am
After mastering the m9 which is straight forward I would try the OP referrals to the Sony before jumping into a Sony system...it's not Leica! Neither ia Panny, Oly, Fuji or any of the small mirror less creatures and neither is a small 50 meg sensor vs a large 50 mb sensor. FWIW.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Eldad on May 07, 2016, 01:13:02 am
Thank you all for your input, much appreciated.
I do love the m9 with its outdated sensor and limited iso.
Maybe just save some money now and invest in lenses until the m10 comes along :)
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: JeanMichel on May 07, 2016, 01:07:48 pm
I, too, have an M9. It too needs a new sensor and I will sending the camera to Leica for a replacement, but I am too busy using it at the moment. I work with both the M9 and with a Canon 5D2, each for different purposes. I tried the SL at a Toronto show a few months ago and if $$$$ was not a factor I would be tempted, but not as a replacement for an M, and my 5d2 does the job that the SL would do. The M9 files allow me to print images up to 24 by 30 inches (and possibly a bit larger if I had a 44 inch printer instead of a 24 inch one).

While this site is excellent, you may find moe information from users of Leica equipment at this site: http://www.l-camera-forum.com

Jean-Michel
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Zorki5 on May 07, 2016, 09:34:22 pm
I, too, have an M9. It too needs a new sensor and I will sending the camera to Leica for a replacement

What is it with M9 sensors?

If memory serves me, this is third post here in about a week about failing M9 sensors. What's wrong with them?
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: JeanMichel on May 07, 2016, 10:11:06 pm
There is a potential issue with the sensor cover, and Leica simply replaces the sensor with a new one (with an improved cover). The replacement is free and it does not matter if you are the original owner or if you bought it used. Typically, the issue is more apparent at small apertures.
Jean-Michel
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Bo Dez on May 08, 2016, 06:42:34 am
I would keep the M9, personally, and buy lenses instead.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: eronald on May 08, 2016, 06:28:50 pm
I would keep the M9, personally, and buy lenses instead.

A single new lens costs for the M9 easily costs as much as an A7R2.
The idea of using a second body with high resolution, high ISO, video and AF with the same lenses is interesting; there is an AF adapter for Leica M for the A7R2.

Edmund
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: ramosa on May 08, 2016, 09:24:12 pm
I would keep the M9, personally, and buy lenses instead.

I sold my M9 several years ago, have tried quite a few cameras since (i.e., Sony RX1r, M7, Leica Q, M6). While these are all great cameras in different ways, I should have stuck with the M9, as it did everything I needed. I love the M9's images at lower ISOs.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: ramosa on May 08, 2016, 09:29:00 pm
A single new lens costs for the M9 easily costs as much as an A7R2.
The idea of using a second body with high resolution, high ISO, video and AF with the same lenses is interesting; there is an AF adapter for Leica M for the A7R2.

Edmund

Using a Leica M, IMO, shares very little in common with using a Sony. The haptics and functionality of a Sony aren't innately worse than those of a Leica M for everyone, but they sure are for me. For me, shooting with the Sony (e.g., RX1r) was like manipulating "a computer." In contrast, a Leica M is so much simpler and straightforward.

To each, his own, of course.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: eronald on May 09, 2016, 09:53:21 pm
Using a Leica M, IMO, shares very little in common with using a Sony. The haptics and functionality of a Sony aren't innately worse than those of a Leica M for everyone, but they sure are for me. For me, shooting with the Sony (e.g., RX1r) was like manipulating "a computer." In contrast, a Leica M is so much simpler and straightforward.

To each, his own, of course.

Yes. No reason not to own a computer, too :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: BrianVS on May 10, 2016, 04:57:18 pm
I would keep the M9, go with the new sensor if the old one is having problems- Leica is replacing them free-of-charge even if the camera is out of warranty.

Wait and see what the next M camera is like- hopefully will have a sensor based on BSI technology, too bad it will not use a more modern Dalsa CCD as Phase I chose for their high-end monochrome camera.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Eldad on May 10, 2016, 07:02:22 pm
Spoke to Leica Australia and they are replacing the sensor with the new generation one.
They did offer me an upgrade path but only to the m240 and the monochrome (which I would love to own one day)
I opted to stay with the m9 and just purchased a Zeiss 18mm. The Ziess and the Cron 50mm will keep me covered for a while (I hope).
I dreamed about owning a Leica for 25 years and can't really see myself replacing it with a Sony.
Thank you all for your input I appreciate your point of view and knowledge :)
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: eronald on May 10, 2016, 08:16:54 pm
Theory sounds great.

In the real world the M lenses I use most don't play well with the Sony sensor, the AF adapter has issues including those with FLE lenses and every time I pick up a Sony camera all I want to do is put it down.

Best camera I have is my iPad. Horrible image quality but wonderful composition viewfinder :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: SeanBK on May 11, 2016, 04:09:30 pm
A tad bit late in the conv, but I do shoot with M(240) w/24mm Elmar & 75mm both Leica glass. Prior to that for 40+ yrs I shot with Nikon (last one was Nikon D800e w/best glass, incl Zeiss) along with Hasselblads. Strictly quality wise speaking M(240) is so much better than anything I've shot with. I also carry for the reach Leica V-Lux. Upgrade to M(240) if u can, u wont regret it.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: JV on June 02, 2016, 07:25:33 pm
Have you already held an SL in your hand? This is like moving from a compact to a Humvee.

Edmund

The M240 body weighs 680g, the Leica SL body weighs 771g (847g w/ battery)...

If you shoot M lenses with it you will hardly feel a weight difference.

And it will support your M lenses much better than a Sony...
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: JV on June 02, 2016, 07:27:23 pm
Theory sounds great.

In the real world the M lenses I use most don't play well with the Sony sensor, the AF adapter has issues including those with FLE lenses and every time I pick up a Sony camera all I want to do is put it down.

Amen.

You have a fab camera.

I'd choose option 1 and spend what I'd saved on travel.

Wise suggestion though!

Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on June 03, 2016, 04:26:09 am
I use the Sony Alpha 7 system with several lenses, including the M Elmarit 90 f2.8. I have never used the M system, because I don't have that kind of money.

Using M lenses in the A7II is very easy, I just set the camera in aperture priority mode, and manual focus using focus peaking and/or magnification. The EVF is certainly good enough for all situations I normally encounter (travel, people, reportage, low light, strong light).

I can certainly recommend the A7 system as a platform to shoot M lenses. Matter of fact, my next one will be the ZM C Sonnar 50 1.5, once I find a good deal.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: JV on June 03, 2016, 08:27:22 am
I use the Sony Alpha 7 system with several lenses, including the M Elmarit 90 f2.8. I have never used the M system, because I don't have that kind of money.

Using M lenses in the A7II is very easy, I just set the camera in aperture priority mode, and manual focus using focus peaking and/or magnification. The EVF is certainly good enough for all situations I normally encounter (travel, people, reportage, low light, strong light).

I can certainly recommend the A7 system as a platform to shoot M lenses. Matter of fact, my next one will be the ZM C Sonnar 50 1.5, once I find a good deal.

Paulo,

A ZM lens is not that big of an investment.  If you buy the more expensive Leica lenses why would you also not buy the body that supports those lenses the best?

Below are some comparison shots for the old and new Summicron 28mm on the Leica M, the Leica SL and the Sony A7II:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2016/06/old-new-leica-28mm-summicron-asph/

To me the differences are noticeable and his conclusion at the end is spot on...

Thanks, Joris.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on June 03, 2016, 11:38:01 am
Paulo,

A ZM lens is not that big of an investment.  If you buy the more expensive Leica lenses why would you also not buy the body that supports those lenses the best?

Below are some comparison shots for the old and new Summicron 28mm on the Leica M, the Leica SL and the Sony A7II:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2016/06/old-new-leica-28mm-summicron-asph/

To me the differences are noticeable and his conclusion at the end is spot on...

Thanks, Joris.

Joris, thanks for the input, interesting link. As I said, I don't have enough money to build a Leica M system. So, I make do with what I can afford. I prefer to buy used cameras (bought A7 and A7II) and good lenses. Currently, I have the Zeiss Batis 25, Sony Zeiss 55, and Leica Elmarit M 90. These cover my shooting requirements.

I once tried a ZM C Sonnar 50 on the A7II, and loved the results from that lens. Not that the Sony Zeiss 55 is not a top quality lens, which is, just a different rendering.

My preference is toward good glass, and the Sony A7 cameras just allow a lot of folks to use good "legacy" lenses without buying a 5000 EUR (or more) Leica camera.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: adriantyler on June 05, 2016, 04:57:19 pm
the 50mm summicron will work with an adaptor on the a7rii, i have just spent the day using the leica elmar 90mm on the sony and i can attest that is was not a "using a computer" like experience, the images are much better than the ones i got form the m9 in every respect.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Gilgamesh on June 06, 2016, 05:43:08 pm
Hmm.
Use your M9 in the vertical (to the landscape format) with either a 50mm or better still a 35 or a 28mm in the vertical and stitch them together.

Lr CC and you're done.

Problem solved.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: scooby70 on June 06, 2016, 06:09:09 pm
Every time I read a Sony or Panasonic or any other electronic manufacturing companies camera described as a computer I grimace a little and I do wonder if this is just a cheap shot aimed to discredit these upstart companies. After all, who do they think they are making cameras? And good ones too! Shouldn't they stick to making computers, mobile phones and toasters?

I've only been using cameras for 45 years and although this might not be long enough and I may be a young upstart I just don't get the view that these cameras are or feel like computers, at all.

Yes, I currently have a Sony. It's my first Sony. I shoot using a mixture of AF and MF lenses and my A7 seems to work just like any other modern camera I've had and certainly not differently to my first modern automated Nikon 35mm SLR which I had decades ago. The aperture, shutter speed, compensation and ISO are all set with wheels or are just a button push away and I only dive into the menu to format the card or set the clock. Just like any Canon, Nikon or... some Leicas.

Lets lay off with the computer jibes. After all Leica now makes cameras which are as far removed from their old film rangefinders as anything Sony make.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on June 07, 2016, 04:02:25 am
the 50mm summicron will work with an adaptor on the a7rii, i have just spent the day using the leica elmar 90mm on the sony and i can attest that is was not a "using a computer" like experience, the images are much better than the ones i got form the m9 in every respect.

Adrian,

As a side note, what is your experience with the 50 Summicron on the A7? I am toying with the idea of getting a small Leica 50 f2 for my A7II, since it is so small and high quality. I currently have the Sony Zeiss 55, which is fantastic in its own right, but I do like manual focus. I am also thinking of the Loxia 50.

Regards.
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 07, 2016, 04:29:31 am
Every time I read a Sony or Panasonic or any other electronic manufacturing companies camera described as a computer I grimace a little and I do wonder if this is just a cheap shot aimed to discredit these upstart companies. After all, who do they think they are making cameras? And good ones too! Shouldn't they stick to making computers, mobile phones and toasters?

Couldn't agree more.

There is not even a need to factor in the Minolta genes of Sony's cameras, history doesn't matter. With today's design tools, start ups could design within a few months whatever camera UI you could dream of, this is the easy part. The underlying technological building blocks, the quality manufacturing and the profitability are the tough parts.

The complexity of consumer goods electronics lies there.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: eronald on June 07, 2016, 06:57:02 am
Every time I read a Sony or Panasonic or any other electronic manufacturing companies camera described as a computer I grimace a little and I do wonder if this is just a cheap shot aimed to discredit these upstart companies. After all, who do they think they are making cameras? And good ones too! Shouldn't they stick to making computers, mobile phones and toasters?

I've only been using cameras for 45 years and although this might not be long enough and I may be a young upstart I just don't get the view that these cameras are or feel like computers, at all.

Yes, I currently have a Sony. It's my first Sony. I shoot using a mixture of AF and MF lenses and my A7 seems to work just like any other modern camera I've had and certainly not differently to my first modern automated Nikon 35mm SLR which I had decades ago. The aperture, shutter speed, compensation and ISO are all set with wheels or are just a button push away and I only dive into the menu to format the card or set the clock. Just like any Canon, Nikon or... some Leicas.

Lets lay off with the computer jibes. After all Leica now makes cameras which are as far removed from their old film rangefinders as anything Sony make.

 If you're willing to think a bit, maybe it will come to you that people who remind you that your camera is a computer are doing you a favor. The iPhone and S7 Galaxy phones  are hugely powerful little computers with superb screens sold by the hundreds of millions, and this is why when a tiny $10 camera module is integrated in the phone,  the viewfinder is responsive, image processing is exemplary, the screen is LARGE, BRIGHT, calibrated  and images look good. Also, the camera app is easy to use because it benefits from UI research and an API that has been amortized over thousands of AppStore applications that have generated billions of dollars of profit. Images can be exported straight away through a bulletproof wireless interface, and viewed all over the world.

 Your average cheap SLR simply does not contain as much hardware, and this is why the screen is bad, it is small and not calibrated at the factory for cost reasons, the UI not responsive, focus lags and is imprecise, the electronic viewfinder is laggy, and the in-camera image processing not as good as it might be. The UI is quite often a mess because every camera manufacturer has to reinvent the wheel, and program every part of the interface kit. Your average "Pro" SLR eg. my Nikon D4 does not even integrate a WIFI interface.

 Reminding the public that cameras are now computers will prevent them from expecting a free lunch, and make them realize that they will only get decent cameras if they are willing to pay for some serious dedicated hardware. Accepting that the camera is now a computer and employing standard UIs from the phone/computer industry will enable savings that can translate into image quality.

 I'm not against wheels, dials and aperture rings - but I see no reason why a camera cannot have a standard UI on the backscreen and a SCREEN LARGE ENOUGH AND BRIGHT ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY SEE. LIKE MY PHONE.

 Sticking a couple of wheels on top of the camera to "simulate" ISO and select shutter speed is not exactly the same as updating the computer hardware which makes the thing tick.

Edmund
Title: Re: Advice needed - Upgrade from m9 to SL
Post by: JV on June 07, 2016, 09:16:38 pm
Lets lay off with the computer jibes. After all Leica now makes cameras which are as far removed from their old film rangefinders as anything Sony make.

I'm not against wheels, dials and aperture rings - but I see no reason why a camera cannot have a standard UI on the backscreen and a SCREEN LARGE ENOUGH AND BRIGHT ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY SEE. LIKE MY PHONE.

Actually the camera with the most iPhone-like UI is probably a Leica... the Leica T.

I don't believe it was a commercial success (wrong marketing, not an M, only APS-C) but most of the people who own one (including myself) are quite fond of it...

As far as Sony goes, although I wouldn't call them computers, I just am not a fan of their ergonomics and handling, I tried one last year and I don't see myself going back anytime soon.