Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 07:37:09 am

Title: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 07:37:09 am
As Nick-T promised, the perfume of fresh PR is in the air.  I will update here as details get posted.

HERE IS THE SPEC SHEET, and the US PRICING PAGE WITH TRADEINS
http://static.hasselblad.com/2016/03/datasheet_EN.pdf
http://www.hasselblad.com/us/products/h6d-trade-in-program/

This is not just a back sensor drop-in and firmware update, there are some markedly useful improvements for studio shooters.
 
The 100MP camera does internal 4K raw video with a clean HDMI out, and flash sync is improved to 1/2000s (new lenses). Also, any H6 body seems to be a xenophile X. Tethering is USB 3 Type C. SD and CFAST card slots (NOT CF). Max shutter duration at 1hour.

Pricing is at E23K and E29K. The days when the Hassy high end was premium-priced seem over. Maybe because Hassy hopes to sell bodies as well as backs. It remains to be seen whether the old Hassy backs work on the new bodies.

My gut feeling is that this is a solid update, and will be better received than the XF among the working photographers and hoi polloi. But, the devil will be in the details - screen quality, usability, back software, tethering robustness, wifi and tablet control, the  video codecs and outputs etc. Raw video might be a huge thing, fashion shooters might choose to do videos and extract frames. The video features now seem superfluous, but might turn it it into the 5D2 of the medium format world.  Anyway, the H6D does look like a nicely styled camera, but in the end  it's a computer with a hole in the case, and a handle on the side. Is this one going to be a Mac or a PC?


Re. pricing, These *are* working cameras, and cheaper than Phase One. But for me the entry pricing seems high with Pentax at $10K on launch. Even with a luxury premium Hassy should be at $16K. Which in fact was roughly where the 50c was, at least over in Sweden as Torger has pointed out. I think Hassy would be smarter duking it out with Pentax at a 40-60% premium at most; in the current economic climate there is a limit to what "normal" customers are willing to pay, once the millionaire hobbyists have been served. 10x the price of the A7R2 is not exactly the right pricepoint for a 50MP camera.

Hassy is using a new pricing trick, call it reverse switch and bait - they have priced their entry level too high and the 100MP comparatively low. The only difference between the two is probably a different logic and sensor board, with identical manufacturing and quality control costs. I would expect a new 50MP chip that does video very quickly, and the prices of the present H6D50c to get slashed. AFTER all the existing H5D50c stock has been remaindered with "special offers".

What will the future bring? Phase and Hassy may decide to go mirrorless, the tech is ready. They could also try and sell some of the first 8K video cameras. Or capture devices that can record 100MP in raw for a few seconds at a time - ultra high-rez video cameras in opposition to  existing ultra high-speed video cameras. The ongoing collaboration -or supply agreement- with Sony opens many doors.

Edmund



Official links
http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h6d-100c
http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h6d-50c
http://www.hasselblad.com/h6d

Previews
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/100-megapixel-hasselblad-h6d-100c-announced-29160
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166
https://youtu.be/ZGG8f4H3pps

Here are various random links. I'll update the list here as time goes by.
http://www.thevideomode.com/equipment/hasselblad-h6d-captures-4k-video-2320/
http://www.quesabesde.com/noticias/hasselblad-h6d-video-4k-datos-precios_14305
http://www.digineff.cz/clanek/aktuality/hasselblad-h6d
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGG8f4H3pps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJGjcctLHf8
(http://www.digineff.cz/obrdg2016/aktuality/1_3/160407hassel_06.jpg)

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: Christopher on April 07, 2016, 07:44:32 am
So do we need new lenses or not for the 1/2000th?

Quote
Updated H Series Lenses

To take full advantage of the H6D’s new features, we have also updated our entire range of H series lenses and incorporated a new shutter unit with an extended lifespan and an increased top shutter speed of 1/2000th second, when used with an H6D camera. And of course, having a leaf shutter means that flash sync at all speeds is still possible.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 07:46:36 am
So do we need new lenses or not for the 1/2000th?

Not sure yet ...you tell me. We're at the point where rumor is turning into fact.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: Christopher on April 07, 2016, 07:48:51 am
Well I thuoght perhaps there was more informaton in the article you posted. Google translation was a little rough ;)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: Conner999 on April 07, 2016, 07:55:50 am
Tis official

http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h6d-100c
http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h6d-50c

Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: Bo Dez on April 07, 2016, 07:58:41 am
100MP FF645
64-12800
500MB/s 4K motion
1/2000 flash sync

It's a significant upgrade and I think the 4K video in itself is going to be very interesting - it was the critical thing missing from the Phase One.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: razrblck on April 07, 2016, 08:00:20 am
In the photos posted, all lenses seem to have a tiny orange dot near the focus scale. Maybe this denotes the new shutter series?

EDIT: Yes, they updated them.

Quote
To take full advantage of the H6D’s new features, we have also updated our entire range of H series lenses and incorporated a new shutter unit with an extended lifespan and an increased top shutter speed of 1/2000th second, when used with an H6D camera. And of course, having a leaf shutter means that flash sync at all speeds is still possible.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 08:01:27 am
100MP FF645 with 64-12800 and 500MB/s 4K motion is a significant upgrade from anything Hasselblad has. I think the 4K video in itself is going to be very interesting and it was the critical thing missing from the Phase One.

Are you sure that's not 500Mbps?bits rather than bytes?  500MB/s sounds desirable but improbable ...

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 07, 2016, 08:19:26 am
Love the double memory card slot, an amazing omisson on the XF. :)

On the other hand still no camera shutter so no way to go faster than 1/2000s. :(

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: Christopher on April 07, 2016, 08:25:03 am
Love the double memory card slot, an amazing omisson on the XF. :)

On the other hand still no camera shutter so no way to go faster than 1/2000s. :(

Cheers,
Bernard

Well for Phase it wsas clear, they still have way to many IQ cases and need to use them up before changing anything. I bet a dual card slot and a good HDMI output will come with the next revision.

To Hassi I can only say sad. that it wasn't changed. Especially if you put so much into a new camera.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 08:34:09 am
Well for Phase it wsas clear, they still have way to many IQ cases and need to use them up before changing anything. I bet a dual card slot and a good HDMI output will come with the next revision.

To Hassi I can only say sad. that it wasn't changed. Especially if you put so much into a new camera.

Maybe they are hoping for a fast electronic shutter in a future chip.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: jduncan on April 07, 2016, 08:44:32 am
As Nick-T promised, the perfume of fresh PR is in the air.
This is not just a back sensor drop-in and firmware update, there are some markedly useful improvements for studio shooters.

The 100MP camera does 4K, and flash sync is improved (new lenses). Also, any H6 body seems to be a xenophile X. I think the tethering has been updated as well. SD and CF slots.

Pricing is at E23K and E29K. The days when the high end was premium-priced seem over. Maybe because Hassy hopes to sell bodies as well as backs. It remains to be seen whether the old Hassy backs work on the new bodies.

My feeling is that this is a solid update, and will be better received than the XF among the working photographers and hoi polloi. But, the devil will be in the details - screen quality, usability, back software, tethering robustness, wifi and tablet control, the  video outputs etc. It does look like a camera, but in the end  it's a computer with a hole in the case, and a handle on the side. Is this going to be a Mac or a PC?

https://www.ephotozine.com/article/100-megapixel-hasselblad-h6d-100c-announced-29160
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166
https://youtu.be/ZGG8f4H3pps


As I write these official links are down, at least from my comp. You can click on them anyway and hope that Hassy has now realised they have flubbed their web launch.
http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h6d-100c
http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h6d-50c
http://www.hasselblad.com/h6d



Here are various links. I'll update the list here as time goes by.

http://www.quesabesde.com/noticias/hasselblad-h6d-video-4k-datos-precios_14305
http://www.digineff.cz/clanek/aktuality/hasselblad-h6d
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGG8f4H3pps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJGjcctLHf8
(http://www.digineff.cz/obrdg2016/aktuality/1_3/160407hassel_06.jpg)

Edmund
.

Hi,

I need to clarify something very important.
The card is CFAST not compact flash. CFAST is not compatible with CF.
It is a great decision, because of the speed and future proofing. Since I have a Nikon I will have preferred XQD. XQD is as fast and use less space.
But most people shoots Canon, and Canon is CFAST.
That is what allows the H6D-100C to have such a good performance.
Just as I told the people: Carl Taylor was not playing around.


Note If you like, you can  add this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3LzIhR8-mA&nohtml5=False
It's a little on the infomercial side, and long, but it confirms that the new shutter is needed for  1/2000 s
Best regards,
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: douglevy on April 07, 2016, 08:44:39 am
Wait so...can I buy one of these lenses and use it with my H5X for faster sync, or no?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: gss on April 07, 2016, 08:51:53 am
Wait so...can I buy one of these lenses and use it with my H5X for faster sync, or no?
No.  Requires an H6D.

"To take full advantage of the H6D’s new features, we have also updated our entire range of H series lenses and incorporated a new shutter unit with an extended lifespan and an increased top shutter speed of 1/2000th second, when used with an H6D camera." - http://www.hasselblad.com/medium-format/h6d-100c
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: calindustries on April 07, 2016, 09:03:43 am
No.  Requires an H6D.


That was my 2 minute dream.... :(
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: gss on April 07, 2016, 09:10:52 am

That was my 2 minute dream.... :(

I would guess that a firmware update for the H5D could allow this.  Maybe Hasselblad will show some love in the future.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 07, 2016, 09:13:26 am
Just because I'm lazy and don't have a fresh view on pricing -- can someone provide us with a price comparison to a corresponding Phase One system? Is there really a change in pricing policy, or is pricing at the level they usually are?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Bo Dez on April 07, 2016, 09:14:06 am
4K motion, 3 year warranty, and 40% cheaper than the Phase One...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Chris Livsey on April 07, 2016, 09:17:08 am

That was my 2 minute dream.... :(

Maybe half a dream?

"if you have the older lenses, then you'll get a boost in shutter speed from 1/800 to 1/1000s. They are all compatible with the 100mp sensor."

From; https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 07, 2016, 09:19:43 am
4K motion, 3 year warranty, and 40% cheaper than the Phase One...

Is it Phase One that has increased the prices, or Hasselblad that has lowered? Here in Sweden a H5D-50c body is €14k, so €23k for the H6D-50c didn't seem awfully cheap to me. On the other hand the H5D-60 was €31k, so the new high end H6D-100c seems cheaper at €29K, but kind of marginal.

Edit, got less lazy and looked at a price list: Phase One XF + 100MP seems to be about €39k here, so a 34% difference here, quite big but not huge. It's only €10k ;)

It shall be interesting to see if they make a CFV-100c and what the price of that will be. The CFV-50c is currently €8K here (all prices without VAT).
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Christopher on April 07, 2016, 09:20:09 am
4K motion, 3 year warranty, and 40% cheaper than the Phase One...

So we are at:

H6d 100 -> 34k -> 3 years
XF 100 -> 41k -> 5 years

I really don't see your 40%....
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Bo Dez on April 07, 2016, 09:27:48 am
Sorry only quoting Ming Thein - http://blog.mingthein.com/2016/04/07/hasselblad-h6d-announcement/

Quote
the H6D-50c has an European price of EUR 22,900, and the H6D-100c is EUR 28,900. (It’s worth noting that a) there’s a trade in program, b) the cameras have a three year warranty, and c) the 100MP version is some 40% cheaper than the Phase One equivalent.)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: PhotoKratky on April 07, 2016, 09:45:01 am
Wait so...can I buy one of these lenses and use it with my H5X for faster sync, or no?

Or can I upgrade my "old" lenses with the new shutter unit, and, if so, at what price?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 07, 2016, 09:47:30 am
Anyone noticed that 645 "full-frame" gets smaller and smaller? ;) This one is 53.4x40mm.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: jduncan on April 07, 2016, 09:51:12 am
Is it Phase One that has increased the prices, or Hasselblad that has lowered? Here in Sweden a H5D-50c body is €14k, so €23k for the H6D-50c didn't seem awfully cheap to me. On the other hand the H5D-60 was €31k, so the new high end H6D-100c seems cheaper at €29K, but kind of marginal.

Edit, got less lazy and looked at a price list: Phase One XF + 100MP seems to be about €39k here, so a 34% difference here, quite big but not huge. It's only €10k ;)

It shall be interesting to see if they make a CFV-100c and what the price of that will be. The CFV-50c is currently €8K here (all prices without VAT).

Contrary to you, I hope they continue to sale the CFV-50c as it is, or with a minor improvements, like the new screen. The lenses are not up to the challenge (as far as I know), and the idea of the CFV-50c is for photography lovers and enthusiasts.  What we need is for the CFV to be inexpensive and continue to push money on Hasselblad's direction. Notice that for this people 100mp is a liability: big files.  Pro's have thunderbolt arrays or high speed shared storage.

They are investing money on the H system and that its great. Also if many millennials buy the CFV and fall in love with MF (including the viewfinder) they may buy a H or a PhaseOne in the future.

Down the road when the 100mp sensor is old, then  a new CFV could be introduced (because of the size of the sensor, not the resolution)
But as they say, this is subjective.

Best regards,
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: douglevy on April 07, 2016, 10:06:09 am
Interesting:

The increase in maximum shutter speed is interesting. Some sophisticated electronic synchronisation plus improved shutter units allow 1/2000s with the new camera and new lenses, or 1/1000s with prior HxD cameras. (Note that existing lenses are still limited to 1/800s on all cameras, but can be sent in for the upgrade.)

http://blog.mingthein.com/2016/04/07/hasselblad-h6d-announcement/
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: synn on April 07, 2016, 10:41:54 am
Is this USB tethered or still Firewire?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 07, 2016, 10:54:55 am
Contrary to you, I hope they continue to sale the CFV-50c as it is, or with a minor improvements, like the new screen. The lenses are not up to the challenge (as far as I know)

I agree that it would not nice if they remove the €8K CFV-50c product and replace it with a €20k CFV-100c. Unfortunately the history tells us that there can only be one CFV back at a time, so indeed sounds like a good idea to stay on the 50 for awhile. If they do introduce a CFV-100c I hope they make it in parallel, or make it the only product for the reason it was before -- the price is so low that no other product fits below it.

But anyway, regarding the lens not being up to the challenge is because people are crazy about pixel peeping. When will people realize that aliased false-color jagged pixels are not the utmost example of image quality? :)
The V lenses render as great as they ever did, and with a larger sensor rendering aspects will improve regardless resolution, but yes they will be somewhat soft on peeping, especially in the corners.

Unfortunately the pixel peep sickness is so common in customers so you're still probably right, the V lenses aren't really sharp enough from a marketing perspective...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 07, 2016, 10:56:49 am
Is this USB tethered or still Firewire?

USB3
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: gss on April 07, 2016, 10:59:34 am
Do any of the radio flash triggers support 1/2000 sec sync?

I have tried Pocket Wizards and Elinchrom Skyports, and haven't had great success in syncing faster than 1/500 sec without losing some of the flash output.  I haven't tried Elinchrom's latest trigger which supports HSS, but it isn't clear from their site that the trigger even supports Hasselblads.

I'm fairly certain that Profoto's Air triggers will do a reasonable job with 1/1600 sec because otherwise Phase One owners would have been complaining, but does it require the trigger to be built in?  I don't think it does, but I have to ask.  Is the Profoto Air maxing out at slower than 1/1600, but doesn't miss enough of the flash output for people to notice?

How fast can Broncolor's RFS sync?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Endeavour on April 07, 2016, 11:02:35 am
just out of curiosity, how much is 1/2000 needed in a studio environment?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: gss on April 07, 2016, 11:05:17 am
just out of curiosity, how much is 1/2000 needed in a studio environment?

Probably not much, but it would greatly help outside.

Edit:
Come to think of it, it could help in studio to freeze liquids if the flash durations aren't quick enough.  For instance, the Elinchrom 2400 Joule packs have a t0.1 of roughly 1/900 sec, which is close, but not quite fast enough to freeze liquids.  These packs don't improve flash duration when power is reduced.  In this case, the shutter speed of 1/2000 sec would help.  You'd lose flash output, but you'd get your shot.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 11:10:11 am
I think the entry pricing is too high, because Pentax are at $10K, so even with a luxury premium Hassy should be at $16K. Which in fact was roughly where the 50c was, at least over in Sweden as Torger has pointed out.

Hassy is using a new pricing trick, call it reverse switch and bait - they have priced their entry level too high and the 100MP comparatively low. Which is reasonable as the only difference between the two is probably a different logic and sensor board, with identical manufacturing and quality control costs. I would expect a new 50MP chip that does video very quickly, and the prices of the present H6D50c to get slashed. AFTER all the existing H5D50c stock has been remaindered with "special offers".

Edmund


Is it Phase One that has increased the prices, or Hasselblad that has lowered? Here in Sweden a H5D-50c body is €14k, so €23k for the H6D-50c didn't seem awfully cheap to me. On the other hand the H5D-60 was €31k, so the new high end H6D-100c seems cheaper at €29K, but kind of marginal.

Edit, got less lazy and looked at a price list: Phase One XF + 100MP seems to be about €39k here, so a 34% difference here, quite big but not huge. It's only €10k ;)

It shall be interesting to see if they make a CFV-100c and what the price of that will be. The CFV-50c is currently €8K here (all prices without VAT).
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: douglevy on April 07, 2016, 11:14:16 am
GSS - I've been syncing at 1/800 with Skyports and my Elinchrom Rangers with no problem for 18+ months.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Endeavour on April 07, 2016, 11:16:54 am
Probably not much, but it would greatly help outside.

Edit:
Come to think of it, it could help in studio to freeze liquids if the flash durations aren't quick enough.  For instance, the Elinchrom 2400 Joule packs have a t0.1 of roughly 1/900 sec, which is close, but not quite fast enough to freeze liquids.  These packs don't improve flash duration when power is reduced.  In this case, the shutter speed of 1/2000 sec would help.  You'd lose flash output, but you'd get your shot.

do people still photograph liquids? I thought that was pretty much all 3d now.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 11:21:34 am
do people still photograph liquids? I thought that was pretty much all 3d now.

I always thought Elinchrom have a shorter duration at higher power. Silly me. Or maybe that was once upon a time. I thought this was what the guy who designed them had told me, I think, when I went to visit in Switzerland.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: jvpictures on April 07, 2016, 11:27:08 am
Do any of the radio flash triggers support 1/2000 sec sync?

I have tried Pocket Wizards and Elinchrom Skyports, and haven't had great success in syncing faster than 1/500 sec without losing some of the flash output.  I haven't tried Elinchrom's latest trigger which supports HSS, but it isn't clear from their site that the trigger even supports Hasselblads.

I'm fairly certain that Profoto's Air triggers will do a reasonable job with 1/1600 sec because otherwise Phase One owners would have been complaining, but does it require the trigger to be built in?  I don't think it does, but I have to ask.  Is the Profoto Air maxing out at slower than 1/1600, but doesn't miss enough of the flash output for people to notice?

How fast can Broncolor's RFS sync?

I can fully sync up to 1/800 sec using a Broncolor Move mobil pack and the H5D triggered by RFS 2.1. In the datasheet Bron claims  a total transmission time of less than 1/1000 sec, thus a max X sync shutter is at least 1/1000 sec, probably faster...
But, at full energy output (1200 Ws) t0.1 is only 1/375 sec and thus a shutter of 1/1000 sec (or even 1/2000) will cut away much of the light output. I will check tonight what is the fastest t 0.1 at lower output levels to figure out the "break-even"-point of this popular mobile pack for output levels as a function of various shutter speeds for which the light emitting time is equal or slightly smaller than its X-sync and report here tomorrow.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: douglevy on April 07, 2016, 11:28:28 am
I always thought Elinchrom have a shorter duration at high power. Silly me. Or maybe that was once upon a time. I thought this was what the guy who designed them had told me, I think, when I went to visit in Switzerland.

Edmund

I believe the Ranger packs do.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: jvpictures on April 07, 2016, 11:35:04 am
just because of the orange - golden shutter button I want one of these! :'(

Or do you think a can swap this button on my current H5 ?  ;D
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Endeavour on April 07, 2016, 11:37:01 am
just because of the orange - golden shutter button I want one of these! :'(

Or do you think a can swap this button on my current H5 ?  ;D

(http://mfpilot.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/h/u/hum46orange_wm.jpg)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Iliah on April 07, 2016, 11:37:18 am
Are any raw files available?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: gss on April 07, 2016, 11:43:08 am
I always thought Elinchrom have a shorter duration at higher power. Silly me. Or maybe that was once upon a time. I thought this was what the guy who designed them had told me, I think, when I went to visit in Switzerland.

Edmund
They do.  What I said was that the flash duration doesn't improve by reducing power.  Perhaps I muddied the water by using the t0.1 duration of 1/900 sec rather than Elinchrom's published t0.5 duration, because the t0.5 doesn't really help in determining the motion stopping capability (unless you convert using the rule of thumb that t0.1 is 3 times t0.5, which holds pretty well for Elinchroms).
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Joe Towner on April 07, 2016, 12:03:14 pm
Maybe half a dream?

"if you have the older lenses, then you'll get a boost in shutter speed from 1/800 to 1/1000s. They are all compatible with the 100mp sensor."

From; https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166

Looks like they got the leaf shutter up to 1/1000th, so with the same trickery as Phase (EFC - electronic first curtain) can cut the exposure in half.

All new glass is good, and the orange dot helps identify them.  The trick is that Hasselblad should hit up all the rental houses and qualify the lenses as being -100c ready.  There's a lot of older HC glass that hasn't gotten much love as of recent.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 07, 2016, 12:37:27 pm
It seems like technical camera support is tether only so far, no battery adapter like on the H5D. You could probably make a self-made external battery hack like I've done for my H4D-50, but it would be nice if they actually provided a battery adapter for those field users that think the Sony CMOS performance is okay with their tech lenses.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Franzl on April 07, 2016, 12:41:31 pm
so, touchscreen, USB 3, new interface, lenses with higher sync speed and actually up to date sharpness, and other stuff. this took Hasselblad just 5 years to catch up with PhaseOne...but now they are big steps ahead...1/400 flash sync speed more and 4k video...wondering if I should sell all my XF IQ150 gear and convert to Hasselblad...oh wait, I don't need 4k DMF video and more flash sync than 1/1600...so I think I will leave that out :-) but if I keep reading the forum I might believe that I won't be able to focus with an XF camera, so maybe I should change over to HB...don't know what to do...

and now you guys can grill me...hehe
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: henrikfoto on April 07, 2016, 12:57:06 pm
Are the Hasselblad backs sold without the cameras, just for use  with large format cameras?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: digitalBerg on April 07, 2016, 01:00:07 pm
When do they start shipping?


Best regards, Terje
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 07, 2016, 01:06:08 pm
Are the Hasselblad backs sold without the cameras, just for use  with large format cameras?

No, you must buy it with the body and throw it away. Or keep it on a shelf like I do with my H4 body ☺
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: mitchino on April 07, 2016, 01:10:00 pm
Two things:

Have the lenses actually been changed in any way apart from having new shutters put in? Are they optically better?

Anyone know how what the trade-in prices are?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: landscapephoto on April 07, 2016, 01:16:38 pm
Two things:

Have the lenses actually been changed in any way apart from having new shutters put in? Are they optically better?

They are the same lenses optically.


Quote
Anyone know how what the trade-in prices are?

http://www.hasselblad.com/us/products/h6d-trade-in-program/
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: gss on April 07, 2016, 01:18:38 pm
Anyone know how what the trade-in prices are?
US trade in: http://www.hasselblad.com/us/products/h6d-trade-in-program/

If you mean trade-in on lenses, I don't know.  That may not happen, but would really be welcome.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Christoph B. on April 07, 2016, 01:41:37 pm
I believe the Ranger packs do.

The "old" Elinchroms (StyleRX) have a shorter flash duration at max. power - similar to Profoto D1 monoheads. The new Elinchrom ELC HD line has the shortest duration somewhere in the first 1/3 of its power.

Someone already pointed out a problem for those that want to use the 1/2000 sync speed - it will cut off a big chunk of your flash power if you're using a flash, even if it has a rather short duration. The Profoto monoheads won't work with it and I doubt the old Elinhcrom monoheads will either. The new heads might work at certain settings and the power packs likewise. But then again it's not a huge difference between 1/1600 and 1/2000 anyway...

It won't really help with freezing unless you plan to waste most of the power of your flash, if capturing motion is your primary target then you're better off getting a pack like Broncolor Scoro or the Profoto 8a (which will work at 1/2000s at lower power settings).
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: voidshatter on April 07, 2016, 01:45:11 pm
Anyone noticed that 645 "full-frame" gets smaller and smaller? ;) This one is 53.4x40mm.

lol

The number of pixels is also slightly less: 8 rows less and 8 columns less

Lowest possible ISO setting is slightly higher: 64 vs 50 (though 100 should be the native base for both)

Touch screen is slightly smaller in size and in number of pixels.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: gss on April 07, 2016, 02:37:30 pm
I hope the lack of a multishot option isn't a sign that they're giving up on it.  I know Hasselblad's CEO doesn't like roadmaps, but I think a hint about the future of multishot would have been appropriate.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: william on April 07, 2016, 02:47:40 pm
Any clues on what "Competitor 30MP" is defined as for trade in purposes?

US trade in: http://www.hasselblad.com/us/products/h6d-trade-in-program/

If you mean trade-in on lenses, I don't know.  That may not happen, but would really be welcome.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: landscapephoto on April 07, 2016, 02:56:59 pm
Any clues on what "Competitor 30MP" is defined as for trade in purposes?

Probably anything you can convince your dealer to accept. It is not like they are going to use these old backs, you know...  ::)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Jlister on April 07, 2016, 03:12:50 pm
Profoto air sync triggers sync to 1/1600 as do "el cheapo " Paul C Buff triggers and broncolor.  My dealer later today is sending me a price to have new shutters put in.  What do you guys think, can I get 19,000 for a kidney?  I really want to trade my 50c for a 100c but I would have to sell something.  Kidney or motorcycle- both I can't live without.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: landscapephoto on April 07, 2016, 03:25:07 pm
Profoto air sync triggers sync to 1/1600 as do "el cheapo " Paul C Buff triggers and broncolor.  My dealer later today is sending me a price to have new shutters put in.  What do you guys think, can I get 19,000 for a kidney?  I really want to trade my 50c for a 100c but I would have to sell something.  Kidney or motorcycle- both I can't live without.

You don't need to take the decision today. The trade-in offer is valid for a few months.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Jlister on April 07, 2016, 05:15:47 pm
You don't need to take the decision today. The trade-in offer is valid for a few months.
Good to know.  Last trade in offer I did, Hasselblad decided to offer the camera at a lower price than with my trade in less than 2 months later!  Needless to say I was upset.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 07, 2016, 05:21:19 pm
I hope the lack of a multishot option isn't a sign that they're giving up on it.  I know Hasselblad's CEO doesn't like roadmaps, but I think a hint about the future of multishot would have been appropriate.

To the contra... Hasselblad is offering the (cmos) 50MS & 200MS backs as "stand alone" (meaning one can purchase them without having to buy a complete camera system) offerings for a few months now... I guess an MS version of the 100mp sensor will follow....
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 07, 2016, 05:36:08 pm
One can't help to notice that the price difference between H6D-50 & H6D-100 is of (about) 25% price rise... Can't help to also notice that P1 is pricing the IQ 3-100 back at much more than 25% price difference with respect to the IQ-350 one... add "no video" to the above...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 06:00:14 pm
One can't help to notice that the price difference between H6D-50 & H6D-100 is of (about) 25% price rise... Can't help to also notice that P1 is pricing the IQ 3-100 back at much more than 25% price difference with respect to the IQ-350 one... add "no video" to the above...

P1 comes with concierge service. You have an issue, rub the camera, Doug pops up and solves your problem and saves your shoot and your job. There is no fixed price for that.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 07, 2016, 06:02:21 pm
P1 comes with concierge service. You have an issue, rub the camera, Doug pops up and solves your problem and saves your shoot and your job. There is no fixed price for that.

Edmund

But.... I never have issues that Doug can solve!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 06:18:04 pm
But.... I never have issues that Doug can solve!

Eh? You must be a very unique individual :)

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 07, 2016, 06:20:46 pm
Eh? You must be a very unique individual :)

Edmund

There others too...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: JV on April 07, 2016, 08:10:21 pm
I think the entry pricing is too high, because Pentax are at $10K, so even with a luxury premium Hassy should be at $16K. Which in fact was roughly where the 50c was, at least over in Sweden as Torger has pointed out.

Hassy is using a new pricing trick, call it reverse switch and bait - they have priced their entry level too high and the 100MP comparatively low. Which is reasonable as the only difference between the two is probably a different logic and sensor board, with identical manufacturing and quality control costs. I would expect a new 50MP chip that does video very quickly, and the prices of the present H6D50c to get slashed. AFTER all the existing H5D50c stock has been remaindered with "special offers".

Edmund

Pentax is at $7k and Leica at $16K.  The entry level price is indeed a bit steep...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 07, 2016, 08:24:36 pm
Pentax is at $7k and Leica at $16K.  The entry level price is indeed a bit steep...

Isn't Hassy "entry level" (in real - not what the price list says about the H5-40) the H5-50c? There is no replacement (up to now) for the H5 series... Both series are in production.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: JV on April 07, 2016, 08:30:07 pm
Isn't Hassy "entry level" (in real - not what the price list says about the H5-40) the H5-50c? There is no replacement (up to now) for the H5 series... Both series are in production.

Yes, I guess, I wonder how much longer it will be around though.  Currently $14.5K in the US.  Not sure how much improvement the H6D-50c adds compared to the H5D-50c...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 07, 2016, 08:36:40 pm
Yes, I guess, I wonder how much longer it will be around though.  Currently $14.5K in the US.  Not sure how much improvement the H6D-50c adds compared to the H5D-50c...

My guess is that H6D series is much like what P1 IQ-3 series is with respect to IQ-2 series... a more expensive line to attract those that are willing to spend more... One doesn't loose customers to Pentax or Leica by abandoning the (up to date) competitive product...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 07, 2016, 10:18:20 pm
My guess is that H6D series is much like what P1 IQ-3 series is with respect to IQ-2 series... a more expensive line to attract those that are willing to spend more... One doesn't loose customers to Pentax or Leica by abandoning the (up to date) competitive product...

No. The H6D line is now their main product. They will lower the pricing on the 50 to 15K or so as soon as they have disposed of existing stock.
At 15K they are competitive with Phase; if they really wanted they could probably go down a bit more and get some new users.
It will be interesting to watch the rental market - these are guys who buy what photographers *want* to use. The luxury and institutional market now belong to Phase, if only because very high dealer margins are necessary in both.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: mitchino on April 08, 2016, 02:13:06 am
The trade-in prices don't look bad in the US, anyone found the UK ones?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: landscapephoto on April 08, 2016, 02:18:13 am
The trade-in prices don't look bad in the US, anyone found the UK ones?

Here: http://www.hasselblad.com/products/h6d-trade-in-program
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: jvpictures on April 08, 2016, 03:12:07 am
I can fully sync up to 1/800 sec using a Broncolor Move mobil pack and the H5D triggered by RFS 2.1. In the datasheet Bron claims  a total transmission time of less than 1/1000 sec, thus a max X sync shutter is at least 1/1000 sec, probably faster...
But, at full energy output (1200 Ws) t0.1 is only 1/375 sec and thus a shutter of 1/1000 sec (or even 1/2000) will cut away much of the light output. I will check tonight what is the fastest t 0.1 at lower output levels to figure out the "break-even"-point of this popular mobile pack for output levels as a function of various shutter speeds for which the light emitting time is equal or slightly smaller than its X-sync and report here tomorrow.

I checked the speed range for Broncolor Move popular mobile power pack triggered by Bron's RFS 2.1 under various power settings with the following conclusions (this is just from the specs and from the various speed indication from the pack as being read on the pack's LCD, i.e. it is not tested and thus kind of theoretical):

1. with this setup you can use all power levels for a x-sync shutter of up to 1/320 sec. Power levels from 5 to 1200 Wsec (1200 Joules).
2.  for x-sync of 1/500 and/or 1/800 sec power levels up to 600 Wsec are valid (level 2-9). Not at full dump, since here the speed is only 1/375 and one would cut part of the light
3. for faster camera shutters (e.g. 1/1000 or 1/2000 sec) the pack can only be triggered at 300 Wsec (level 8, 2 stops less).

see my chart.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: mitchino on April 08, 2016, 05:10:17 am
If I trade in my H4D-50 I can get the H6D-100 for £15,350 or the H6D-50 for £11,400.

Seriously enticing, but I'll wait for reviews and many more sample pics.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Chris Livsey on April 08, 2016, 05:32:00 am
Competitor 30MP> €6,500   £5,000

So what do Team Phase One offer against one of their own 30MP> backs ?
Is it the usual, we need to talk individually, nothing in print, are you on our "most favoured" list?
That is what I have had before, UK, and it really does nothing for me as a potential customer.


Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Bo Dez on April 08, 2016, 05:47:50 am
This is an incredible upgrade that puts Hasselblad back in the game, and while I never thought I'd say it, they may just have the upper hand over Phase One. Not just on price either - 4K motion was something of a glaring omission for me from the Phase Launch, something I thought them mad to not get moving on with such an expensive system in such transitional times.

The Hasseblad is a very enticing camera but i'm still left thinking - shame the lenses aren't Zeiss. The existing Fuji ones are incredibly sharp and have exceptional colour and contrast, but the rendering, IMO, has none of the magic of the V Zeiss lenses. The bokeh on some lenses can be a bit ugly and/or can look like photoshopped Gaussian blur. Is it enough for me to stop buying? maybe. I can't even use the Magic blad lenses such as the Planar 110 f2 on the H - IMO, This was a terrible design direction, not to include backwards compatibility on their legendary greats that helped define their system and make it as great as it was. It's the final aesthetic dressing of the image that I can not overlook. Perhaps this is something that Hasselblad can address, as some of the modern Fuji X lenses can look quite good, but it would be great to see Zeiss offer an Otus like range for Medium Format!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Christopher on April 08, 2016, 07:12:31 am
I do agree that the H6D is very welcome. However, upper hand ? Really depends on what one wants.

4K might be amazing if you need it. I don't need it and I really don't care.

However, I need to be able to use it on a tech camera and here I would even consider the h6d. Sorry but here I expected much much more.


Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: razrblck on April 08, 2016, 07:15:31 am
The Hasseblad is a very enticing camera but i'm still left thinking - shame the lenses aren't Zeiss. The existing Fuji ones are incredibly sharp and have exceptional colour and contrast, but the rendering, IMO, has none of the magic of the V Zeiss lenses. The bokeh on some lenses can be a bit ugly and/or can look like photoshopped Gaussian blur. Is it enough for me to stop buying? maybe. I can't even use the Magic blad lenses such as the Planar 110 f2 on the H - IMO, This was a terrible design direction, not to include backwards compatibility on their legendary greats that helped define their system and make it as great as it was. It's the final aesthetic dressing of the image that I can not overlook. Perhaps this is something that Hasselblad can address, as some of the modern Fuji X lenses can look quite good, but it would be great to see Zeiss offer an Otus like range for Medium Format!

You can still use almost all CF and CFE lenses on the H bodies via a dedicated adapter, though I understand that it would be nice to have old Zeiss designs updated and with added autofocus.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Bo Dez on April 08, 2016, 07:33:04 am
You can still use almost all CF and CFE lenses on the H bodies via a dedicated adapter, though I understand that it would be nice to have old Zeiss designs updated and with added autofocus.

True, but not the FE lenses, given there is no Focal Plane Shutter. Ironically you need to shoot Phase One or Leica to use these Blad lenses. The Planar 110 f2 is one of the most beautiful ever lenses and a shame to not be able to use it on their current platform.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: william on April 08, 2016, 08:26:30 am
I may have missed this, but:

Was a shipping date announced?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: razrblck on April 08, 2016, 08:46:16 am
True, but not the FE lenses, given there is no Focal Plane Shutter. Ironically you need to shoot Phase One or Leica to use these Blad lenses. The Planar 110 f2 is one of the most beautiful ever lenses and a shame to not be able to use it on their current platform.

Ah, yeah that sucks!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Jager on April 08, 2016, 08:48:12 am
I may have missed this, but:

Was a shipping date announced?

Early June.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 08, 2016, 09:50:27 am
Early June.

conflicting reports. i saw April.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: digitalBerg on April 08, 2016, 10:12:58 am
conflicting reports. i saw April.

Edmund
Where?? :) April would be nice
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 08, 2016, 10:29:09 am
Where?? :) April would be nice

I will go to the presentation on tuesday and ask. at least i will be able to scrounge a free drink. any other questions?

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: digitalBerg on April 08, 2016, 10:52:49 am
Ask what the cost of upgrading old HC lenses will be.


Best regards, Terje
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Chris Livsey on April 08, 2016, 11:25:15 am
Where?? :) April would be nice

ISTR, I have read too many sources, that both dates are correct April for the 50 and June for the 100.

Found it, again: The H6D-50c will be available in April, and we have tried to make sure there is not a long delay after announcement. The H6D-100c has a June release date.
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166


New lenses supplied with a 24 month warranty (or 1,000,000 exposures, whichever comes first). If you register before 30th September 2016, we will give you an extra 12 months warranty free.

Phocus 3.0
A new graphical user interface. The Local Adjustment tools allow the user to apply exposure, white balance, colour and moirι corrections via either a radial or linear gradient, and for those finer corrections, a brush tool – which are all added via adjustment layers.

Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: jacsin on April 08, 2016, 11:56:05 am
Any limitations on using HCD lenses on the 100C, i.e. do they all cover the sensor?

Is it on your shopping list, the camera, not the drink?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: william on April 08, 2016, 12:39:22 pm
Arrgh! June availability for the 100c isn't going to help me: For once in my life, I actually have gigs (in May) where 100mp would be useful....  Will have to check out the Phase option again.


ISTR, I have read too many sources, that both dates are correct April for the 50 and June for the 100.

Found it, again: The H6D-50c will be available in April, and we have tried to make sure there is not a long delay after announcement. The H6D-100c has a June release date.
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/perry-oosting-on-the-hasselblad-h6d-29166


New lenses supplied with a 24 month warranty (or 1,000,000 exposures, whichever comes first). If you register before 30th September 2016, we will give you an extra 12 months warranty free.

Phocus 3.0
A new graphical user interface. The Local Adjustment tools allow the user to apply exposure, white balance, colour and moirι corrections via either a radial or linear gradient, and for those finer corrections, a brush tool – which are all added via adjustment layers.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: landscapephoto on April 08, 2016, 01:43:53 pm
Any limitations on using HCD lenses on the 100C, i.e. do they all cover the sensor?

You'll have the same limitations as on the H4D-60 and H5D-60.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: digitalBerg on April 08, 2016, 01:45:45 pm
You'll have the same limitations as on the H4D-60 and H5D-60.
Can you explain?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: landscapephoto on April 08, 2016, 01:51:23 pm
Can you explain?

Black extreme corners, but the cameras can crop automatically. Need I explain more?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: digitalBerg on April 08, 2016, 02:23:50 pm
Typically a 100mm 2.2f wide open?


Best regards, Terje
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Jager on April 08, 2016, 04:19:18 pm
Arrgh! June availability for the 100c isn't going to help me: For once in my life, I actually have gigs (in May) where 100mp would be useful....  Will have to check out the Phase option again.

Hasselblad has an estimate of the H6D-100c units they expect to sell.  Whatever that number is, it isn't a large number.  More so than most markets, every sale counts.  If you truly prefer the HB over the P1, and it's only your client schedule that is driving you towards a 'Plan B,' I'd contact your dealer and explain the situation.  It's possible HB might make some sort of accommodation for you, even if it's a temporary test/demo unit running early firmware until your actual production unit is available.

Worth a try...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 08, 2016, 11:44:12 pm
Re Shipping dates:

April for the 50
June for the 100
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: nemtom on April 09, 2016, 01:20:18 am
Hasselblad has an estimate of the H6D-100c units they expect to sell.  Whatever that number is, it isn't a large number.  More so than most markets, every sale counts.  If you truly prefer the HB over the P1, and it's only your client schedule that is driving you towards a 'Plan B,' I'd contact your dealer and explain the situation.  It's possible HB might make some sort of accommodation for you, even if it's a temporary test/demo unit running early firmware until your actual production unit is available.

Worth a try...

Well, I don't know who would photograph something important (which might be hard to reproduce) with a beta camera instead of something out in the wild for half a year.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 09, 2016, 01:36:35 am
I have shot with beta cameras and beta software for years. This was in a studio with plenty of control, layers of backups and systems so it does work. I wouldn't do it on a wind swept location though.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 09, 2016, 06:25:18 am
I have shot with beta cameras and beta software for years. This was in a studio with plenty of control, layers of backups and systems so it does work. I wouldn't do it on a wind swept location though.

The distinction between beta software and production software is pretty slim these days. I'd say that two months from a camera release you should  at the very least be looking at a "release candidate" without major show-stoppers. If not, the nature of debugging means the release will be flawed.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: nemtom on April 09, 2016, 07:17:12 am
The distinction between beta software and production software is pretty slim these days. I'd say that two months from a camera release you should  at the very least be looking at a "release candidate" without major show-stoppers. If not, the nature of debugging means the release will be flawed.

Edmund

Maybe... You never know how much time-pressure is on the development. Hasselblad had to announce something ASAP, which usually doesn't help releasing a flawless product. Maybe they want it to be flawless first time, that's why they didn't announce it beforehand, but I would be surprised if that would be the case, as it would have been a major hit on the MF scene, that they come back with the first 100MP camera (if they would have announced let's say Dec15).
So, all I'm saying in certain circumstances any risk is too many.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Endeavour on April 09, 2016, 08:35:32 am
I agree

There are generally two types of software releases:
One which has pretty much everything locked down, and just minor bug fixes released afterwards.
One which is almost a rolling prototype,where patches and upgrades to add/fix the announced features are applied post-launch

Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 09, 2016, 09:36:28 am
Maybe... You never know how much time-pressure is on the development. Hasselblad had to announce something ASAP, which usually doesn't help releasing a flawless product. Maybe they want it to be flawless first time, that's why they didn't announce it beforehand, but I would be surprised if that would be the case, as it would have been a major hit on the MF scene, that they come back with the first 100MP camera (if they would have announced let's say Dec15).
So, all I'm saying in certain circumstances any risk is too many.

There's a simple way to find out, and that's to ask the company's launch "reviewers" who did the promos which parts work, and which parts are still a little rough.

But I do agree that if you want zero risk you want a system *you* have used for several months. And a backup. Even rental is risky if you don't have the time to set up and test the system exhaustively. Been there, done that. Albeit not under as huge pressure as "Cooter", as he points out, but having model, style team and makeup there with a faulty rental flash system is enough stress for me.


Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: digitalBerg on April 09, 2016, 09:40:10 am
Aah.. Over 10kUSD price difference between H5D-50c and H6D-60c in Norway. Thats ALOT


Best regards, Terje
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: yashima on April 09, 2016, 12:47:49 pm

One of feature of the new H6D I find interesting is the ability to output JPEG, i.e. it has a complete processing engine inside the back. Phase One backs do not have this, so while the LCD is good, the preview image is a little washed out and the colour is quite off. If Hasselblad gives DSLR-level preview images (and improve Phocus 3.0) then it would make me consider seriously.

Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Chris Livsey on April 09, 2016, 12:59:05 pm
One of feature of the new H6D I find interesting is the ability to output JPEG,

The H5D has this feature already (2012?) , it has not led to the total collapse of the Team Phase One Empire  ;)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: peterv on April 09, 2016, 06:31:25 pm
Does anyone know which part of the 100mp sensor is used for 4K in mm?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 09, 2016, 06:41:33 pm
It's full width but dropped top and bottom in 16:9 ratio.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 09, 2016, 06:57:08 pm
Does anyone know which part of the 100mp sensor is used for 4K in mm?

Thanks in advance!

Good question this... I was also wondering... Logic says that it should be the nearest equivalent that can divide horizontal pixels accurately with 3840... (or is it cinema 4192?), that should be  3x3840=11520 horizontal pixels.... (which means full width of sensor!)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: peterv on April 09, 2016, 06:58:38 pm
Thanks, Nick. That's going to be an interesting look for video/motion. Who knows, maybe even some cinema shots.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 09, 2016, 07:11:42 pm
Cinema 4k is 4192 horizontal resolution, 3840 is HDTV 4K... Strange thing is that the 50mp Sony sensor can do 8K cinema (8384 horizontal pixels needed) at full width, but Hasselblad preferred to let it down to 2K video.... Can it be that a future "cinema special" 8K RAW back is in the works?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 09, 2016, 08:53:22 pm
Thanks, Nick. That's going to be an interesting look for video/motion. Who knows, maybe even some cinema shots.

I shoot a fair bit of daylight food as it is, often with flash fill. I'm thinking I'll move to gelled Tungsten or HMI/LED fill. The idea of grabbing some moving image stuff with the same glass is pretty exciting.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 09, 2016, 09:43:42 pm
Cinema 4k is 4192 horizontal resolution, 3840 is HDTV 4K... Strange thing is that the 50mp Sony sensor can do 8K cinema (8384 horizontal pixels needed) at full width, but Hasselblad preferred to let it down to 2K video.... Can it be that a future "cinema special" 8K RAW back is in the works?

Theo, at full data rate the sensor will heat up, and you also need some advanced electronics to store the data.
I think they might do short bursts at first.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 09, 2016, 09:50:03 pm
Theo, at full data rate the sensor will heat up, and you also need some advanced electronics to store the data.
I think they might do short bursts at first.

Edmund

Aaaahhh... forgot to mention the 60mins exposure time for the new backs!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: bdp on April 10, 2016, 02:15:36 am
It's full width but dropped top and bottom in 16:9 ratio.

Hi Nick,

Do you think there is any chance that in the 50MP back will shoot 4K in the future?

Ben
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 10, 2016, 06:23:29 am
Great minds think alike Ben! I'll see what I can find out. In the mean time I wouldn't worry, most broadcast stuff is barely SD let alone 4K...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Dustbak on April 10, 2016, 06:57:44 am
Aaaahhh... forgot to mention the 60mins exposure time for the new backs!

And something that is often forgotten, NO dark frame subtraction! 60 min exposure is only 60 minutes after which you can immediately capture a next shot instead of having to wait another 60 minutes...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: digitalBerg on April 10, 2016, 12:59:51 pm
Will the h6d-100c not be a ideal camera for portrait handheld with the 100mm 2,2f wide open? It can be a tricky combo getting sharp images. Even the 80mm 2,8f wide open? Any thoughts?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: uaiomex on April 11, 2016, 01:42:49 am
This is truly huge!


And something that is often forgotten, NO dark frame subtraction! 60 min exposure is only 60 minutes after which you can immediately capture a next shot instead of having to wait another 60 minutes...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: torger on April 11, 2016, 04:19:08 am
This is truly huge!

I always liked that, they have that on the old CCD backs too, no dark frame. Sure you're probably paying a bit of noise but it's not too bad and I'm glad to pay that price compared to waiting...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: bdp on April 11, 2016, 05:32:39 am
Great minds think alike Ben! I'll see what I can find out. In the mean time I wouldn't worry, most broadcast stuff is barely SD let alone 4K...

Thanks Nick. More importantly, can the footage be graded? Does it have a choice of gamma curves? Is there focus peaking and zebras? These aren't really advanced options anymore, really the bare basics for video in my opinion. You know what it's like shooting in daylight, often the midtones need to be boosted significantly to mimic the contrast of the stills we are trying to match.

Ben
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: voidshatter on April 11, 2016, 06:40:47 am
And something that is often forgotten, NO dark frame subtraction! 60 min exposure is only 60 minutes after which you can immediately capture a next shot instead of having to wait another 60 minutes...

That was one big thing which forced me to switch from the fullframe CCD IQ260 to the crop CMOS IQ250 two years ago. Now the fullframe CMOS has made things right with both LE and sensor size. (Except for Torger that the symmetric wide angles are still unusable and he might still need to wait for the BSI version of MFDB.)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: jduncan on April 11, 2016, 11:58:55 pm
To the contra... Hasselblad is offering the (cmos) 50MS & 200MS backs as "stand alone" (meaning one can purchase them without having to buy a complete camera system) offerings for a few months now... I guess an MS version of the 100mp sensor will follow....

Normally multi shoot comes later on the generation. Just like the H5D. The issue is that each time you rise the resolution creating a multi shoot camera becomes more difficult.  The level of precession needed rise a lot.  An H6D-400ms will be something to behold, plus the the advantages in color reproduction.

My guess is that it will take some time.  Some people believe that they need to work on the lenses, but I am not sure about it.

Best regards,
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: razrblck on April 12, 2016, 03:02:07 am
Some people believe that they need to work on the lenses, but I am not sure about it.

I should have no impact. You are still shooting at 100MP for each frame, it's just the final composite image that has higher resolution.

If lenses are perfectly fine for 100MP in single shot, they will be just as fine for 400MP in multi shot.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Miyata610 on April 12, 2016, 03:11:02 am
I should have no impact. You are still shooting at 100MP for each frame, it's just the final composite image that has higher resolution.

If lenses are perfectly fine for 100MP in single shot, they will be just as fine for 400MP in multi shot.

Hmm, my brain tells me otherwise, but it's been a long day and I trust it less at this time of the evening.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 12, 2016, 03:23:34 am
Yes you are still sampling 100MP, just four times (RGGB), so if the lenses are up to 100MP single shot then they are up to 4 shot.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 12, 2016, 05:55:31 am
The requirements on the lens don't change with respect to single shot, either if the process is one of 4x (which results to the same resolution as if it was single shot) or if it is a 6x (with modern Hassy) or even 16x (Sinar & older Hassy) that quadrables the resolution. It is just the requirements for stability that change in the cases that a quadrupling the resolution process is used. With Hasselblad 6x the requirements for increased stability is very little with respect to 4x, with Sinar 16x it is more... Yet, there is a  benefit for using 16X with respect to 6x (not much but there is), since with 16X one quadrables the Nyquist limit too (it's the same as quadrupling the area of the sensor) while with 6x, the process interpolates a set of new columns and rows between the true colour ones that have resulted out of the 4x process... 
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on April 12, 2016, 08:57:41 am
Yet, there is a  benefit for using 16X with respect to 6x (not much but there is), since with 16X one quadrables the Nyquist limit too

The Nyquist frequency is Doubled by the half pitch sampling steps.
 
Quote
(it's the same as quadrupling the area of the sensor) while with 6x, the process interpolates a set of new columns and rows between the true colour ones that have resulted out of the 4x process...

The 6x multi-step does not increase colour and luminance resolution as much as a 16 step process can, so while it's Nyquist limited resolution does increase, it's slightly less effective, but also takes less time to collect vibration and illumination variation artifacts.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: TonyVentourisPhotography on April 12, 2016, 09:51:35 am
In an odd way to bring this from the other direction...

Using Olympus lenses designed for the 16 megapixel range (and probably just above) with multi-shot mode of the E-M5II or Pen F, they are delivering a 60mp or 80mp RAW file.  The lenses were obviously not designed for an 80mp camera.  The quality of the files actually improves with the multi-shot considerably.  Yes, resolution is gained, but the noise goes down, there is no moire, and the colors are much more accurate.  I have seen no indication that the lenses are the weakest link in any respect.  (in fact the 12-40 pro is pretty impressive compared to my Schneider 35XL)

Saying this, I would assume all the Hassy lenses would respond exactly as they do on the sensor in single shot mode.  I agree as well, a multi-shot version of the new 100 back would be absolutely amazing to see. 
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 12, 2016, 09:52:53 am
The Nyquist frequency is Doubled by the half pitch sampling steps.

Actually it is double-doubled! (once horizontally and then vertically) ...thus quadrupled... it can also be concluded if one simply multiplies the resolution that results with the size of the pixel where he will find that the he has shot on a ....100x75mm area with 9μm pixels (for a 22mp multishot back).


The 6x multi-step does not increase colour and luminance resolution as much as a 16 step process can, so while it's Nyquist limited resolution does increase, it's slightly less effective, but also takes less time to collect vibration and illumination variation artifacts.

Cheers,
Bart

Exactly what I said... thanks for confirming. Hasselblad's 6X method only creates 4x non interpolated  true colour results, then it interpolates the additional resolution (only) using the same true colour results that where the outcome of the 4x part of the same process...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 12, 2016, 10:03:37 am
In an odd way to bring this from the other direction...

Using Olympus lenses designed for the 16 megapixel range (and probably just above) with multi-shot mode of the E-M5II or Pen F, they are delivering a 60mp or 80mp RAW file.  The lenses were obviously not designed for an 80mp camera.  The quality of the files actually improves with the multi-shot considerably.  Yes, resolution is gained, but the noise goes down, there is no moire, and the colors are much more accurate.  I have seen no indication that the lenses are the weakest link in any respect.  (in fact the 12-40 pro is pretty impressive compared to my Schneider 35XL)

Saying this, I would assume all the Hassy lenses would respond exactly as they do on the sensor in single shot mode.  I agree as well, a multi-shot version of the new 100 back would be absolutely amazing to see.

Γεια σου Αντωνη... Yet the results you'll get out of the Olympus will be far from comparing with an MFDB... Reason for that is partly mechanical, because the size of the pixels increase accuracy by a substantial margin and additionally because of the software, because the multishot capturing software uses simple methods of very accurate calibration... However one has to think..., if he is so highly impressed out of the Olympus results, what will happen if he sees the outcome out of an MFDB?  ;)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: TonyVentourisPhotography on April 12, 2016, 01:31:44 pm
 ;)  Oh, I was just stating what ive seen in multishot in regards to lenses.  I certainly know the difference between the formats.    I shoot both a cambo WRS system and a Hasselblad H system for my architectural and commercial work.  The olympus started out as my "viewfinder" for my WRS when I couldn't tether a laptop in certain scenarios. 
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 16, 2016, 01:17:47 am
Hi Nick,

Do you think there is any chance that in the 50MP back will shoot 4K in the future?

Ben

Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: bdp on April 16, 2016, 02:43:38 am
Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)

Thanks Nick! I'm sure HD will be fine for the sort of stuff I do. If a client really wants 4K I'll pull the Sony out of the bag again.

Got a 50 on order so very excited for mid May, which is my expected delivery.

Ben
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Paul2660 on April 16, 2016, 08:15:57 am
Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)

Hi Nick

I was curious on this issue also.  Can you elaborate on the resolution issue and not getting 4 K. I only ask since there are hundreds of devices out there with much less resolution delivering 4K now down to the latest iPhone.  The 50 Mp would platform to me would have been a great place for a 4K solution.

Thanks
Paul C
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: ErikKaffehr on April 16, 2016, 08:50:04 am
Hi,

I would suggest that there may be three issues:

1) Readout speed, for video you need at least 24 frames/s
2) Processing speed, for good video you need full readout and downsize to 4K in real time, needs lots of CPU-power
3) Aliasing, videographers are more concerned about aliasing than still shooters as aliasing effectively destroys vide compression and may destroy things like green screen. For unaliased video a proper OLP filter would be needed and that OLP filter would be tuned for 4K video.

Best regards
Erik



Hi Nick

I was curious on this issue also.  Can you elaborate on the resolution issue and not getting 4 K. I only ask since there are hundreds of devices out there with much less resolution delivering 4K now down to the latest iPhone.  The 50 Mp would platform to me would have been a great place for a 4K solution.

Thanks
Paul C
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 16, 2016, 09:39:11 am
Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)

 Of course it's the opposite... the resolution of the 50 is good enough to do all 2K (by binning 16 pixels in square to perform as one) or 4k (by binning 4 pixels in square to act as one) or 8k (by using each pixel for recording the signal)... More than that, the sensor's resolution has provision for 8K cinema (4x2046 pixels needed) resolution rather than just HDTV 4K... (4x1920pixels of resolution needed).... It's Sony sensors... Sony doesn't produce sensors that can be specific for only one part of imaging... for them convergence of technologies is both to their interest and on their culture too... ;)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 16, 2016, 05:31:26 pm
Of course it's the opposite... the resolution of the 50 is good enough to do all 2K (by binning 16 pixels in square to perform as one) or 4k (by binning 4 pixels in square to act as one) or 8k (by using each pixel for recording the signal)... More than that, the sensor's resolution has provision for 8K cinema (4x2046 pixels needed) resolution rather than just HDTV 4K... (4x1920pixels of resolution needed).... It's Sony sensors... Sony doesn't produce sensors that can be specific for only one part of imaging... for them convergence of technologies is both to their interest and on their culture too... ;)
I'm sure you are right Theodoros, I'm just passing on what I have been told by Hasselblad, I imagine they are wrong and you are right...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: wallpaperviking on April 17, 2016, 07:15:46 am
Apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere and I have missed it but am just wondering if both of the new Hasselblad sensors are Sony's "backlit" sensors? 

Thanks so much!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Christopher on April 17, 2016, 10:15:44 am
The 50mp Sensor is not new and the 100 is the same as Phase and perhaps soon Pentax. As far as I know there is no backlit sensor except the full frame 7r2?


Christopher Hauser
ch@chauser.eu
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 17, 2016, 10:48:34 am
I'm sure you are right Theodoros, I'm just passing on what I have been told by Hasselblad, I imagine they are wrong and you are right...

I suspect Theo is right. Sony and its customers need working hi rez sensors for their own many purposes, of which still photography are just a fraction, and in fact some 50 sample files date from 3 years before the chip's adoption and release by Phase. Of course each customer chooses to implement what is desirable for his application, and the electronics for 25 fps 8K are presently well beyond Hassy's internal design capability. It is already amazing they can do raw 4K, and chose to budget delivering this very expensive feature.

One of the reasons I like Hassy these days is that they deliver some cutting edge camera features, like multishot and truefocus and now Raw video, and then actually make them work rather than be gadgets, while Phase concentrate on steady progress, C1, and their dealer network. Basically, Phase are always playing catchup on camera features. Leica have bet on ergonomics and lens quality, and that seems to work for them.

BTW, if one can do it, there is something extraordinary about framegrabs from a movie capture; I've done it with my GH4, and one gets some extraordinary "moments" when an expression or the light are just right. 4K captures are already 8MP, more than enough for web use.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 17, 2016, 12:10:51 pm
I'm sure you are right Theodoros, I'm just passing on what I have been told by Hasselblad, I imagine they are wrong and you are right...

It's not a matter of what a Hasselblad employ may have told you to overcome a (possible) question on which one would (probably) ask "why don't you offer 4k video with your 50mp sensor ?" It's just simple math... 8K (cinema)  video is 4x2046=8184pixels of horizontal resolution needed and it's exactly the same pixels needed if one is to do 4k video but bin the pixels in fours, 8184 pixels is slightly less (because of the necessary tolerance needed) than the full width of the Sony 50mp sensor...  So... if the Haselblad guy received a question that he wouldn't know the answer, he just replied the first thing that came up to his mind so that he would "pass"...

Most probably the answer relies with marketing though (so that the "higher" model is better specified) than "lucking of pixels" which he claimed (and is proven to be wrong if one does the simple math).  ;)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 17, 2016, 12:35:25 pm
It's not a matter of what a Hasselblad employ may have told you to overcome a (possible) question on which one would (probably) ask "why don't you offer 4k video with your 50mp sensor ?" It's just simple math... 8K (cinema)  video is 4x2046=8184pixels of horizontal resolution needed and it's exactly the same pixels needed if one is to do 4k video but bin the pixels in fours, 8184 pixels is slightly less (because of the necessary tolerance needed) than the full width of the Sony 50mp sensor...  So... if the Haselblad guy received a question that he wouldn't know the answer, he just replied the first thing that came up to his mind so that he would "pass"...

Most probably the answer relies with marketing though (so that the "higher" model is better specified) than "lucking of pixels" which he claimed (and is proven to be wrong if one does the simple math).  ;)

Theo,

 A sensor does not a video camera make. You need to grab and write the data somewhere. In the mean time, you are heating the sensor. Basically, 8K video can be done, but you are looking at complex design issues, $5K or so of components, which translates into $30K OR $50K tacked on to the sales price. Give it another 3 years, and a standard external recorder descended from today's Odyssey Apollo will plug into the back's standard interface. That will be the H7D, if Hassy survives that long; I'm sure the aerial surveillance guys will love it, and put it on a drone device that can count every hair of every migrant headed to Greece, and call the boats to fish him out of the water.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 17, 2016, 12:42:19 pm
Theo,

 A sensor does not a video camera make. You need to grab and write the data somewhere. In the mean time, you are heating the sensor. Basically, 8K video can be done, but you are looking at complex design issues, $5K or so of components, which translates into $30K OR $50K tacked on to the sales price. Give it another 3 years, and a standard external recorder descended from today's Odyssey Apollo will plug into the back's standard interface. That will be the H7D, if Hassy survives that long; I'm sure the aerial surveillance guys will love it, and put it on a drone device that can count every hair of every migrant headed to Greece, and call the boats to fish him out of the water.

Edmund

That's totally different to the subject before... Nick claims that a Hasselblad employ told him that the sensor "doesn't have enough resolution"... well... it does!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 17, 2016, 12:52:55 pm
Theo,

 ....every migrant...

Edmund

Migrants don't drawn on waters buddy (nor they are that many)... only war refugees do drawn in the sea... It's the same war that made them refugees, which caused the disaster where you live (and my sister lives too) you know...  :-X
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 17, 2016, 03:58:08 pm
Nick claims that a Hasselblad employ told him

I'm not "claiming" anything  I'm telling you.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 17, 2016, 04:26:01 pm
I'm not "claiming" anything  I'm telling you.

What? that "it doesn't have enough resolution"? ...it does!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 17, 2016, 11:41:58 pm
Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: synn on April 18, 2016, 02:47:56 am
Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes silly me, I saved up for the "Sinar technical camera with Lica S and SL mount and FULL autofocus" based on Theo's predictions because as we all know, nobody gets more insider info than Theo.

Still waiting...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: RomanN. on April 18, 2016, 03:54:22 am
Hi,
I also belong to these guys who would wish rather a cheaper 100 CVF back than this H-system back.
For technical cameras user it would be much more important a full compatiliby with copal shutters ( not only with speeds less than 1/8 sek), than this new "great-wow" 1/2000 of the h lenses.
What wide lenses do you want to use on your H6d100?
this old 35 mm HC with the greatest distortion of any 35 mm MF lenses?
or 28- 24 mm that only covers smaller sensors?
phase one have a great schneider 35 mm lens that is what such a back will need.
But is still not interesting for architecture becouse of that lack of shift/tilt.
All architecture guys will always use Roddy or schneider lenses on technical cameras, so why Hasselblad dont take them seriously and dont make a back for them?
Phase one still rules on the technical cameras ( with phase one and leaf backs) and it would be really interesting when there would be a company that would produce cheap backs only for technical cameras, with no additional camera system.
Such back could easy be sold under 10 000- see pentax prices, where the camera is also includet.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 18, 2016, 05:33:21 am
Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard
Can't remember if you participated on the conversation, but I do remember me saying on more than one from past discussions (the one when DJI invested on Hasselblad comes first in mind) that I would expect for Hasselblad to come out with a HQ video compatible release soon... I have also have said that the collaboration with Arri is a hint that they look into catching up with video technology know-how as they see that the convergence of technologies will be a major aspect in future sales... Well... I guess that by including RAW video on the H6D and by developing dedicated software part for video, is another hint that they're looking at the pro market from a convergence of technologies POV... If it isn't obvious to some, that's their conclusion... not mine! IMO, next Hassy releases of MFDBs will continue to develop on video aiming to catch up with the pro market... I expect them to soon release external recorders that one will be able to add (not necessarily by using the back on the camera platform - it can be on a properly designed for video, view camera too) and expand his video abilities further... Never the less, it's impressive that they where able to include highly specified video (and software) with their backs instead of making a "basic" entrance... It's a proof that they have worked hard on the matter... Lets wait and see what the firmware updates will be and what is coming next in terms of new releases... Surely "lots of new products" that Mr. Ooosten promised doesn't mean the H6D series only... It surely doesn't mean that the H6D series is complete with the current introductions either...  ;)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: wallpaperviking on April 18, 2016, 05:55:02 am

Thanks Christopher, much appreciated!

Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 18, 2016, 10:11:49 am
Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

 I too think that Hassy is testing the waters, at the very least for fashion use. Everybody is now working with video, lights are often continuous, and capturing an image in video and publishing on the web at least in short clips is becoming popular.

 Also Hassy's "gadgets" in the past have mostly been useful features - look at the shutter delay, TrueFocus and Multi-shot, the vertical finder.  None is a core feature for most studio photographers, but each has a set of afficcionados for who whom they are important.

 If I may make a personal observation, I believe you are now seeing Hassy as a japanese company, aggregating zillions of features cranked out by dedicated employees, overwhelming the customer with useless functionality, in a product made to have a sales life of a year at most.  With submodels packaged in different casings.

 European design as epitomised by the Scandinavian school tends to be a carefully planned process, leading to a spare but effective product doing exactly the minimum but doing it well, with longer product cycles, and reusing the same casings for submodels The Leica rangefinder and the Hasselblad V series have had a good run for their money, as did the Volkswagen Beetle or the french Deux Chevaux. The advantage of the japanese method is that the product can be revised and evolved to keep the most useful features so it keeps getting better. The advantage of the european method is that you need fewer designers and production engineers, as you don't need to revise your tooling so often.

 If Hassy are expending the huge engineering effort needed for video, they have some major reason for doing so. Video and especially RAW VIDEO (!) which they are doing is horribly hard, it heats your sensor, requires huge bandwidth, everything goes critically realtime. Video is not a minor feature, it is a characteristic which forces one to upsize all the system electronics, buses, storage media interfaces, and imposes real-time software engineering constraints.

 BTW I remember talking to ex Hassy CEO Christian Poulsen at the H launch and I asked him why they didn't have a vertical finder; and he looked at me and simply said "we don't have the money to develop it at the moment". Development resources are often considered VERY scarce in European companies, and only allocated when needed. Because when a feature is integrated, it needs to be done well the first time round. Hassy is not doing video just to tick a box on the specs.
 
 If you look at my prediction record, I think you will find that it is as good as that of any other industry insider, even though I never violate an NDA :)


Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 18, 2016, 12:38:31 pm
I think that in P1 they are late with functions that are now established as standards among demanding pro productions of imaging (video, multishot... etc). If they are to be competitive, they surely have a lot of catching up to do... Perry Oosten mentioned in his latest interview something that should have been of particular interest to the MF market watchers... That among the new products that will be released this year, there is an entry level, portable MF camera coming... He additionally mentioned the Leica S as to specify the target group it will aim... After the interviewer additionally mentioned the Pentax 645, Perry Ooosten completely ignored it and insisted on portability instead.... IMO, he did ignore the Pentax because in is a wrong design (mechanically) that can never be portable and insisted on the Leica because it is the only MF camera around that has a body designed exactly for the image sensor it uses... Therefore I would expect (by listening carefully to the CEO's own words for "how great the mirror VF is", "entrance model" & "Leica S target group") that a new Hasselblad DSLR is coming with a body designed exactly for a 33x44 sensor... It means that one can expect a camera looking like the Leica S, but with a 4:3 sensor in it and a mirror box only a couple of mm longer than Leica's and price around the 10K mark... (possibly a reframed H6D-50 -with video- into a Leica S kind of body). This should mean that Leica will be forced to push prices further down too as it will then have direct competition from another "heavy name" brand, that has as much prestige as them...

I can see that it's going to be hard for Leica to compete, but I'm sure they'll manage somehow... I really don't see how P1 will be able to react on that though... They surely can release an entrance level DSLR by having the XF & IQ 350 reframed... but what about video and what the price would be if they don't reduce prices first for their current offerings?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: synn on April 19, 2016, 03:14:21 am
I need a new keyboard after reading Theo's latest ramblings because the coffee went straight into the old one.

- Typed on the touchscreen on my Surface Pro 3
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Christoph B. on April 19, 2016, 04:01:02 am
Why on earth would P1 release a compact 'DSLR'-type medium format camera? That would ruin the whole modular aspect of their medium format approach and it would be very useless for their existing customers.
Besides it would be very expensive and cumbersome to design and produce a new body, that's why they try to keep the dimensions and form factors of their backs as close as possible even IF a sensor is smaller.

An entry level medium format camera would certainly be interesting, though I doubt it'll be better or cheaper than the Pentax 645Z or much more portable (if it has a mirror) The "problem" is that with smaller sensors and a tight budget and portability in mind people are more likely to turn to small format anyway (Sony A7RII or NikonD810), especially if the gain is minimal and they don't need stuff like leaf shutter lenses anyway.
If the sensor is only slightly bigger and does not offer much more resolution and it's still more expensive but much bigger and heavier...then what's the use?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 19, 2016, 03:15:11 pm
In a way, I think this launch is a flop, because there is no real reason to upgrade except for CMOS or super-hi rez, and everybody who wants a CMOS Hassy already has it by this time. On the other hand, all the other launches from Hassy were equally low key in a way with the core model carried over with a new designation.

Let's hope Hassy really have something else to show, because the H6 will need to compete over time with the Phase to show its merits. This launch isn't going to bring the $$$$ $$$ streaming in the door straight away like the XF launch for which there was a lot of pent-up demand, even if users were happy with their backs. Phase called it right by locking the body, because no one in his right mind would want to dump a P65+ if they could avoid it.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 19, 2016, 05:10:30 pm
In a way, I think this launch is a flop...

Edmund I presume you have not heard how the pre-orders are going...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 19, 2016, 05:17:55 pm
Edmund I presume you have not heard how the pre-orders are going...

I'll watch the H4 and H5 used market with interest ;)

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: DrakeJ on April 20, 2016, 09:50:15 am
So... when does Hasselblad drop its prices on the H6D-50c with 40% like they did with the H5D-50c?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 20, 2016, 02:38:37 pm
So... when does Hasselblad drop its prices on the H6D-50c with 40% like they did with the H5D-50c?

That is easy to answer... "when the trade off discounts will be stopped" should be it...  ;) It won't make much difference either...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on April 20, 2016, 03:00:28 pm
Edmund I presume you have not heard how the pre-orders are going...

 It would be really interesting to know this... I presume they are great and (almost) entirely based on trade offs, right?  It is rather easy for one to predict that it is so...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Hywel on April 20, 2016, 05:35:01 pm
In a way, I think this launch is a flop, because there is no real reason to upgrade except for CMOS or super-hi rez, and everybody who wants a CMOS Hassy already has it by this time. On the other hand, all the other launches from Hassy were equally low key in a way with the core model carried over with a new designation.


I dunno, it's got me seriously thinking about upgrading my H3Dii. I wish they were running the upgrade offer for a bit longer, it's a whole chunk of cash to come up with in a hurry, so I probably won't.

I'd skipped the first iteration CMOS Hasselblad in favour of getting an A7Rii and suite of lenses, because it seemed to me that the A7Rii covered a different part of the "shooting envelope" (IBIS and fast lenses for available and low light situations and relatively lightweight for the mountains, compared with even the CMOS Hasselblad). 

I'm not short of video-capable cameras but even so it's always an attractive feature, especially if it comes with Hasselblad colour science. I wish the 50 megapixel model did RAW video, even if only in full HD instead of 4K.

If I had it, I'd use the video on it. Same as I use video on everything from my GoPro through my iPhone to GH4, 7D, A7Rii and RED. Sometimes grabbing a few minutes of behind the scenes video on a shoot is very valuable, and sometimes you just want to shoot a quick video on location without bringing the whole RED plus lighting plus cards plus batteries plus lenses set-up with you.

Sadly I probably can't justify the cost right now, even with the trade-in, but it's got me scanning the Hasselblad spec sheets with great interest again and wondering if I can afford it, which the previous iteration H5D-50C just didn't. I don't really know why- I was looking at the Pentax 645z instead, before going the Sony route.

Flash sync at 1/2000th is also pretty appealing. I do end up hitting the 1/800th fairly often when counter-balancing daylight with portable strobes in Spain.

Probably I should spend my money on an upgrade of my lighting system next, but I'm at least TEMPTED by the new Hasselblad.

Cheers, Hywel


Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: DrakeJ on April 21, 2016, 04:20:01 am
For me, the H6D-50c is certainly appealing with 1/2000s shutter speed and a good screen, and I'm looking to "invest" in MF. But price is prohibitive, especially considering the price of the H5D in comparison and the price cut they issued not long ago.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: NickT on April 22, 2016, 02:37:17 am
It would be really interesting to know this... I presume they are great and (almost) entirely based on trade offs, right?  It is rather easy for one to predict that it is so...
Theodoros
Just to re-iterate I will not be responding to your posts here or anywhere else.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 22, 2016, 08:23:24 am
This is why Phase One have been so smart in targeting institutions and the "money no problem" sector of the amateur photo community. With a few notable exceptions in the stratosphere of the profession, professional photographers do not rake in enough cash anymore to pay for this style of equipment on a regular upgrade schedule. By adhering to the "elitist" ethos, MF has killed the goose that lays the golden egg. We can only hope that at some point the japanese eg. Pentax and co. will come in with a cheap sexy product - in the past they have not disappointed.

Edmund

I dunno, it's got me seriously thinking about upgrading my H3Dii. I wish they were running the upgrade offer for a bit longer, it's a whole chunk of cash to come up with in a hurry, so I probably won't.

I'd skipped the first iteration CMOS Hasselblad in favour of getting an A7Rii and suite of lenses, because it seemed to me that the A7Rii covered a different part of the "shooting envelope" (IBIS and fast lenses for available and low light situations and relatively lightweight for the mountains, compared with even the CMOS Hasselblad). 

I'm not short of video-capable cameras but even so it's always an attractive feature, especially if it comes with Hasselblad colour science. I wish the 50 megapixel model did RAW video, even if only in full HD instead of 4K.

If I had it, I'd use the video on it. Same as I use video on everything from my GoPro through my iPhone to GH4, 7D, A7Rii and RED. Sometimes grabbing a few minutes of behind the scenes video on a shoot is very valuable, and sometimes you just want to shoot a quick video on location without bringing the whole RED plus lighting plus cards plus batteries plus lenses set-up with you.

Sadly I probably can't justify the cost right now, even with the trade-in, but it's got me scanning the Hasselblad spec sheets with great interest again and wondering if I can afford it, which the previous iteration H5D-50C just didn't. I don't really know why- I was looking at the Pentax 645z instead, before going the Sony route.

Flash sync at 1/2000th is also pretty appealing. I do end up hitting the 1/800th fairly often when counter-balancing daylight with portable strobes in Spain.

Probably I should spend my money on an upgrade of my lighting system next, but I'm at least TEMPTED by the new Hasselblad.

Cheers, Hywel
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on April 22, 2016, 10:38:11 am
All you say is true. And d'you think people would buy more of the MF gear if it were at 2x the 35mm price like the old Hassys?
Hassy's bodies are made in Japan - they *could* compete on price with Pentax if they really wanted to. Japanese design engineers at Pentax also get paid and live very well.   

Edmund


I don't think it's always a matter of if you can afford one of the new medium format cameras for production, but "if" you should afford it.

So I'm not saying one brand, or format is actually better than the other, that's a personal decision, but the bottom line is for a long time digital has been good and given the demands of our industry, it takes a client request/demand to move you to newer equipment with incremental upgrades.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Christoph B. on April 22, 2016, 01:10:14 pm
Yes and no. I think there's a big difference between a system where you can exchange parts very easily and that also has its own software for editing and tethered shooting, has a fairly quick and reliable service and lots of representatives who can help you when you have problems and provide you with backup gear or rent stuff - and a camera producer without all those things.
Also - a system without leaf shutter is much cheaper than a system with leaf shutter...

I guess Hasselblad could save costs by making a 'closed' integrated compact system like Pentax, stop working on Phocus, close their service centres in America and Europe and not have any representatives etc - then it would perhaps cost as much as a 645Z. Oh and no full frame sensor and no leaf shutter lenses too.
Title: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: BJL on April 22, 2016, 01:48:39 pm
And d'you think people would buy more of the MF gear if it were at 2x the 35mm price like the old Hassys?
Hassy's bodies are made in Japan - they *could* compete on price with Pentax if they really wanted to. Japanese design engineers at Pentax also get paid and live very well.   

Edmund
Your optimism about "cheap MF for the masses" ignores some factors.

Firstly, the image quality available from digital cameras in formats 36x24mm and smaller is far greater than film of the same format. (And it might be that technical image quality needed by a lot of professional photography has been reduced by a move to web advertising, and the resolution limits of computer screens.)  So there is inherently a far smaller group of photographers with professional needs for medium and large format. (It's just that a large proportion of them hang out in this forum!)  So the economies of scale are far worse: even if an MF body costs for a digital back about the same to make as one for a film back, the demand and  sales volume will be far lower, so the retail price will include a far larger "fixed cost recovery" component.

Secondly, semiconductor sensor costs scale up badly with size, far worse than with film, for manufacturing reasons that have been discussed many times (like lower yields, and the need for for on-sensor stitching to fabricate a sensor bigger than about 30x20mm, and more stitched parts and 2D stitching as the size increases further).  So MF back costs will probably stay far higher than MF film backs, adding another disincentive for moving up to MF compared to that decision with film cameras, and so again reducing the sales volume, worsening the economies of scale, and raising the retail pricing needed to be profitable.

By the way, I am not sure about that frequent claim of Hasselblad bodies being made in Japan (by Fujifilm); they do have a new factory in Sweden.  (Though I understand that the lenses are, and now the sensors are Japanese too.)  But that debate is not so relevant: Hasselblad might well have at least the option of lowering costs by moving manufacturing off-shore – if the cost savings are enough to offset any loss of prestige and thus market value.  (Some high-end camera enthusiasts are borderline racist in their on-line denigration of "non-Teutonic" products.)
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: landscapephoto on April 22, 2016, 02:19:43 pm
Hassy's bodies are made in Japan

Hasselblad's bodies are made in Sweden.

Edit: the backs are also made in Sweden, even if the Cmos censor is made in Japan. The optical part of lenses is designed by Per Nordlund, in Sweden, and manufactured by Fuji in Japan. The mechanics of the lenses are made in Sweden, including the shutter.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: eronald on April 22, 2016, 04:04:40 pm
BJL

 the bodies, it has been pointed out, are made in sweden. my bad.
 regardless, the backs are solid state electronics and at some point should drop, drop, drop in absolute price. Like FF 35mm did.
 I'm well aware of Poisson statistics and yield curves.

Edmund

Your optimism about "cheap MF for the masses" ignores some factors.

Firstly, the image quality available from digital cameras in formats 36x24mm and smaller is far greater than film of the same format. (And it might be that technical image quality needed by a lot of professional photography has been reduced by a move to web advertising, and the resolution limits of computer screens.)  So there is inherently a far smaller group of photographers with professional needs for medium and large format. (It's just that a large proportion of them hang out in this forum!)  So the economies of scale are far worse: even if an MF body costs for a digital back about the same to make as one for a film back, the demand and  sales volume will be far lower, so the retail price will include a far larger "fixed cost recovery" component.

Secondly, semiconductor sensor costs scale up badly with size, far worse than with film, for manufacturing reasons that have been discussed many times (like lower yields, and the need for for on-sensor stitching to fabricate a sensor bigger than about 30x20mm, and more stitched parts and 2D stitching as the size increases further).  So MF back costs will probably stay far higher than MF film backs, adding another disincentive for moving up to MF compared to that decision with film cameras, and so again reducing the sales volume, worsening the economies of scale, and raising the retail pricing needed to be profitable.

By the way, I am not sure about that frequent claim of Hasselblad bodies being made in Japan (by Fujifilm); they do have a new factory in Sweden.  (Though I understand that the lenses are, and now the sensors are Japanese too.)  But that debate is not so relevant: Hasselblad might well have at least the option of lowering costs by moving manufacturing off-shore – if the cost savings are enough to offset any loss of prestige and thus market value.  (Some high-end camera enthusiasts are borderline racist in their on-line denigration of "non-Teutonic" products.)
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: landscapephoto on April 22, 2016, 04:31:33 pm
regardless, the backs are solid state electronics and at some point should drop, drop, drop in absolute price. Like FF 35mm did.

Where they are made is irrelevant for that.

The question is interesting: will MF electronics drop in price in the future, as FF 35mm did? One thing is sure: they will not drop in price in the next 3 years. After that: all bets are off: maybe 8K video will make these large sensors a necessity and they will then indeed drop in price.

You see: the problems with electronics and price drop is that it requires huge investments. Huge investments require a huge market base. If, say, in 2020-2025 we have 100"-150" screens at a 1000$ price point, then we will have a market for 8K video (or even 16K video). That, in turn, requires larger sensors (because noise is quite obvious in video and physics dictates that to minimise noise one needs lots of photons). These larger sensors would then trickled down to photography.

Then: if, on the other hand, the general public decides that massive screens needs too much place on their walls (whatever the price), electronic manufacturers will be in a crisis (as they are every 20 years or so) and will need to do something else than flat screens. And then the large sensors will stay a niche market.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Theodoros on April 22, 2016, 06:48:09 pm
.....One thing is sure: they will not drop in price in the next 3 years....


Why?  ...and why it is "for sure"? 
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: kers on April 22, 2016, 06:55:37 pm
... maybe 8K video will make these large sensors a necessity ....

Please explain, because my D810 delivers 36MP very well and the lenses too.
IMHO i also think lenses for cinema are largely overpriced.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Theodoros on April 22, 2016, 07:10:46 pm
Please explain, because my D810 delivers 36MP very well and the lenses too.
IMHO i also think lenses for cinema are largely overpriced.

One needs at least a sensor with 8196pixels on its large size to make 8k video at the full width of the sensor... So it is explainable if pixels are of enough size as to cope well with low light...
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Miyata610 on April 23, 2016, 01:30:03 am
Please explain, because my D810 delivers 36MP very well and the lenses too.
IMHO i also think lenses for cinema are largely overpriced.

A critical feature of a cinema lens is that it mustn't "breathe" during focus. This adds complexity to the optical design. They also need to be matched so that the various focal lengths need to behave in a similar way, one would expect a set of primes that all operate across the same set of T stops, with identical colour cast.  Finally, they must be physically similar with focus and aperture ring gears that will mate to the follow focus system.

If you can achieve all that for the price of an Otus then you're doing well. Especially since you won't sell many.  It's probably easy at ten times the price.  These things get rented more often then owned.

Rant over.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: landscapephoto on April 23, 2016, 03:11:14 am
Please explain, because my D810 delivers 36MP very well and the lenses too.

Your D810 will not deliver a 8K video stream. For doing that at the level of quality required by broadcasters and filmmakers, you will need bigger pixels. The problem is not sharpness (that is only an obsession of online photographers), but noise levels.

Then, the market for video is much bigger than the market for MF photography. The video market would be large enough to finance production of stepper technology for making large CMOS sensors at a more reasonable price.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: AreBee on April 23, 2016, 04:16:10 am
Miyata610,

Quote
A critical feature of a cinema lens is that it mustn't "breathe" during focus.

Parfocal (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parfocal_lens#Photography) lens.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Hywel on April 23, 2016, 06:17:22 am
Then, the market for video is much bigger than the market for MF photography. The video market would be large enough to finance production of stepper technology for making large CMOS sensors at a more reasonable price.

Not at all clear that that's the case to me.

The market for large sensor video, for example, is so small that Arri had to cannibalise Hasselblad lenses to make lenses for the Arri 65. http://arrirentalgroup.com/alexa65/

Cine lenses are so damned expensive precisely because the market for high end video is actually a lot smaller than high-end (ie MF) stills. Sure, the mechanical and optical requirements are more demanding too but the main thing is that they are produced in TINY production runs. Sony built new lens-making machines for GM series stills lenses- not cine lenses.

4K for acquisition has definitely made it and is here to stay. There's a very strong case for acquiring in 4K even if delivering in full HD or 2K.

In fact lots of feature films shown in cinemas are finished in 2K (even if they were shot in 4K or more). We don't have much in the way of 4K delivery infrastructure yet, even if we have sensors and displays capable of delivering it we just don't have the ways to get it out to people (except in ultra-compressed online forms, which I'm skeptical really deserve the 4K label if they are throwing away 99+% of the image information).

At typical viewing distances in the home for human eyeballs, 4K has marginal gains over 2K: http://prolost.com/blog/2013/1/22/4k-in-the-home.html
If you've got a projector and a big screen, it's worth it, but not otherwise. Contrast and black levels are much more important to perceived quality at typical viewing distance.

Computer monitors are higher resolution, but it's not clear how many people actually use them for media consumption rather than media creation. They are more likely to use iPads etc, which whilst in theory are capable of vast resolution with retina screens actually look perfectly super with full HD video. Same as televisions, and even most projectors in the home, as above.

All of which means that whilst I can see 8K video as desirable for acquisition, and probably inevitable (RED and Arri are around 6K already) I don't see that that necessarily means it will trickle down to consumer level gear any time soon.

It might, because of the numbers game to sell us cameras. But broadcasters and film-makers are a small market, not a mass market.

Cheers, Hywel

Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: eronald on April 23, 2016, 07:14:50 am
Miyata610,

Parfocal (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parfocal_lens#Photography) lens.

maybe this means focus moves even when not zooming?
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Chris Livsey on April 23, 2016, 08:36:29 am
maybe this means focus moves even when not zooming?

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/03/mythbusting-parfocal-photo-zooms/
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: landscapephoto on April 23, 2016, 10:36:46 am
Not at all clear that that's the case to me.

Neither it is for me, which is why I said "maybe".

Quote
The market for large sensor video, for example, is so small that Arri had to cannibalise Hasselblad lenses to make lenses for the Arri 65. http://arrirentalgroup.com/alexa65/

Arri is a relatively small company and the 65 is more a proof of concept than something they want to sell to all their customers. The situation may (or may not) be very different in 3 to 5 years.


Quote
4K for acquisition has definitely made it and is here to stay. There's a very strong case for acquiring in 4K even if delivering in full HD or
At typical viewing distances in the home for human eyeballs, 4K has marginal gains over 2K: http://prolost.com/blog/2013/1/22/4k-in-the-home.html
If you've got a projector and a big screen, it's worth it, but not otherwise. Contrast and black levels are much more important to perceived quality at typical viewing distance.

If we are trying to predict the situation in 3 to 5 years, we don't do it from the screens people use today. What I was saying is that the electronic giants have pushed larger screens in the past 10 years, because it is an easy way to get consumers to replace their TVs. For this to make sense, they also have pushed higher resolution, because larger screens mainly make sense with better resolution. And for the resolution, they the cameras to produce content. We now have 4K screens and cameras, even if 2K is sufficient for most people.

We know that the same electronic giants are tooling for 8K. For them it makes sense to continue to try to convince the public to buy new screens. If their plan succeeds, content providers will indeed need 8K cameras in 3-5 years, just as they are exchanging their 2K cameras for 4K cameras today.

It may be that the plan fails, for example that consumers do not make the jump to 4K next year, because they fail to see the difference. This sometimes happens: for example, the plan 3 years ago was that every TV would be 3D, this has failed. It may also be that the plan succeeds and that consumers move to 4K next year, in which case the 8K screens will be the next step in 3-5 years.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: eronald on April 23, 2016, 06:17:10 pm
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/03/mythbusting-parfocal-photo-zooms/

Got it. I knew about parfocal. I meant some lenses refocus when you move them - that is sometimes called breathing too.

I always thought you test a lens for "parfocalness" by zooming in, setting focus THEN out THEN back in.

Edmund
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Miyata610 on April 24, 2016, 06:24:18 pm
Miyata610,

Parfocal (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parfocal_lens#Photography) lens.

I was referring to focus breathing in primes, not parfocal which is a zoom phenomenon.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Miyata610 on April 24, 2016, 06:28:28 pm
Got it. I knew about parfocal. I meant some lenses refocus when you move them - that is sometimes called breathing too.

I always thought you test a lens for "parfocalness" by zooming in, setting focus THEN out THEN back in.

Edmund

By breathing, I meant the change of image size (focal length) when a change of focus is required. This is the cinematographer's definition, generally.  Imagine a scene where you go from long focus to close whilst locked down.  With a breathing lens the whole image size changes. Not good.

Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: Chris Livsey on April 25, 2016, 02:53:15 am
IMHO i also think lenses for cinema are largely overpriced.

My link to lens rentals was in response to this post, I would not presume to teach the posters here about breathing, the OP didn't specify prime/zoom.
Title: Re: many reasons why the 35mm-MF price gap is far larger than with film cameras
Post by: eronald on April 25, 2016, 09:48:32 pm
By breathing, I meant the change of image size (focal length) when a change of focus is required. This is the cinematographer's definition, generally.  Imagine a scene where you go from long focus to close whilst locked down.  With a breathing lens the whole image size changes. Not good.

Ah. Nikon 70-200 does this, I believe.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: yashima on May 19, 2016, 06:59:50 am

Got my hands on an H6D100c. Love the new finish. The camera is seriously beautiful, and fit well to the hand (better than the XF).
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2016, 09:28:32 am
Got my hands on an H6D100c. Love the new finish. The camera is seriously beautiful, and fit well to the hand (better than the XF).

Were they quoting a delivery date?
What are the reports on actual 100 and 50 deliveries?

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: calindustries on May 19, 2016, 11:07:34 am
Got my hands on an H6D100c. Love the new finish. The camera is seriously beautiful, and fit well to the hand (better than the XF).

As an H4x owner and having used H5x, what can I expect the build difference to be in H6?
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2016, 12:18:49 pm
As an H4x owner and having used H5x, what can I expect the build difference to be in H6?

I think the new large and slanted touchscreen is new. But I haven't compared to previous models.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: yashima on May 19, 2016, 05:07:47 pm
@calindustries: Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with Hasselblad myself, I'm a Contax 645 user. I have handled H3d in the past, and this looks and feels a lot more solid. The touchscreen is top class, more responsive than Phase. And because Hasselblad has processing engine built it, it renders the preview better than Phase in my opinion.

And Contax is said to be a good looking and well built camera, but the H6d is a class above.

@eronald: Delivery is end of June, as others have reported I believe
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on May 19, 2016, 06:01:36 pm
All H5, H6 & XF beat the Contax for built quality... but the Contax is the Contax! Suberbly built to the extend that one doesn't care for more and with ergonomics that one will miss if he will ever change it!   One can't improve on the "perfect" now... can he?  8) ...And then there is THE SOUND of it!
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: yashima on May 19, 2016, 07:03:15 pm

I have been a Contax user for a long time, but pick up a H6d and you will know, you will want it. H6d's intuitive touch interface beat Contax ergonomics hand down.
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on May 19, 2016, 07:11:33 pm
I have been a Contax user for a long time, but pick up a H6d and you will know, you will want it. H6d's intuitive touch interface beat Contax ergonomics hand down.

All I want, is a 49x37mm 16x multishot Cmos back of 6μm pixel pitch (around 50mp) with good LV to fit in the back of my Contax (and my view camera) as to replace my CF-39MS (I will keep the Sinarback 54H along it for ever)... Otherwise I may as well stay with what I have... Nothing CAN (ever) beat Contax ergonomics... Is there an aperture ring? is there wheels for everything and no LCD nonsense? ...well, there you are... And then there is the SOUND! (like the camera "eating" the capture!).
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: eronald on May 19, 2016, 09:33:35 pm
I have been a Contax user for a long time, but pick up a H6d and you will know, you will want it. H6d's intuitive touch interface beat Contax ergonomics hand down.

The one thing I didn't like about the H6 is the rubbery on press-button. An on button should be a switch.

Edmund
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 19, 2016, 11:14:33 pm
I have to agree here, I love the look of the new H6. This is one very sexy camera and the specs are great too.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: henrikfoto on May 20, 2016, 02:57:14 am
All I want, is a 49x37mm 16x multishot Cmos back of 6μm pixel pitch (around 50mp) with good LV to fit in the back of my Contax (and my view camera) as to replace my CF-39MS (I will keep the Sinarback 54H along it for ever)... Otherwise I may as well stay with what I have... Nothing CAN (ever) beat Contax ergonomics... Is there an aperture ring? is there wheels for everything and no LCD nonsense? ...well, there you are... And then there is the SOUND! (like the camera "eating" the capture!).

Hi Theodores!

I love the 54H too. In 16-shots mode it beats all new backs for non-moving subjects.
BUT, I have problems to find a stable software to work with a modern mac. What software do you
use, and does it work with no problems?
Sinars newest software does not supports this back :'(

Henrik
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on May 20, 2016, 04:40:08 am
Hi Theodores!

I love the 54H too. In 16-shots mode it beats all new backs for non-moving subjects.
BUT, I have problems to find a stable software to work with a modern mac. What software do you
use, and does it work with no problems?
Sinars newest software does not supports this back :'(

Henrik

Hi Henrik, I'm affraid you'll have to use Captureshop 6.1.2 with it, its not the most stable software around, but it is based on the core of mac design and thus should work with any future update that Mac may come up with... Captureshop may not be the most stable software, but it is very capable once one familiarizes with it and it is certainly very accurate  for what it counts which of course is color accuracy and accuracy/simplicity of calibration and it does support the use of Sinar's LC shutter which adds considerably on 54H LV abilities.

Sinar's latest Captureflow software doesn't work with 54H because there aren't any CPU contacts on the back... Captureflow works with all Sinarbacks that have CPU contacts so that it can then communicate (and possibly compensate) for lens corrections and other parameters of the communication interface involved. However, all modern Sinarbacks with CPU contacts, do work on Captureshop 6.1.2 too and I do know people that use Captureflow for their single shot captures but prefer Captureshop for their multishot captures...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: henrikfoto on May 20, 2016, 08:37:53 am
Hi Henrik, I'm affraid you'll have to use Captureshop 6.1.2 with it, its not the most stable software around, but it is based on the core of mac design and thus should work with any future update that Mac may come up with... Captureshop may not be the most stable software, but it is very capable once one familiarizes with it and it is certainly very accurate  for what it counts which of course is color accuracy and accuracy/simplicity of calibration and it does support the use of Sinar's LC shutter which adds considerably on 54H LV abilities.

Sinar's latest Captureflow software doesn't work with 54H because there aren't any CPU contacts on the back... Captureflow works with all Sinarbacks that have CPU contacts so that it can then communicate (and possibly compensate) for lens corrections and other parameters of the communication interface involved. However, all modern Sinarbacks with CPU contacts, do work on Captureshop 6.1.2 too and I do know people that use Captureflow for their single shot captures but prefer Captureshop for their multishot captures...

Thank you, Theodores! Very helpful.I think I will blow the dust of my 54H and start using it again.
When I look at these old files, I see something amazing!

Henrik
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: drevil on May 20, 2016, 08:51:14 am
for the people looking into h6d, i think it was on sonyalpharumors....saying that people should wait till photokina, whatever that means  ;)

maybe they can save even more money
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Theodoros on May 20, 2016, 09:05:05 am
I think that discussions other than the "Michael" one can wait for a next day... It's best for Lula if today all comments are for paying respects to the creator of this (very contributing to the world of photography) web page...
Title: Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
Post by: Neil Williams on June 11, 2016, 07:27:43 am
Yesterday I made a booking for a demo of the H6D while I am in Solihull UK next month. Plan to take my S for a comparison.....will post up the results once I get them:) :)
Hasselblad explained that the 100c backs have been pushed back due to the earthquake in ??? and that if I want it now I can take the 50 first and once the 100's are available they will swap it out free of charge...........could be taking a H6D back to Malaysia :)