Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Kenphoto on March 16, 2016, 04:54:02 pm
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After many years of occasional printing, I've decided to get serious. Based on the discussions here I've purchased a Benq 2700 monitor and an Epson P600 printer and my first efforts are making me crazy. I have calibrated the monitor with the included software and the Spider 5. I am using the latest version of Lightroom. The image looks fine on the screen with Softproof enabled. When I do a print preview, the image looks very different. It is darker and the colours are off.
What am I doing wrong?
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You'd have to give us more details of your workflow... settings, screen shots, etc. For instance, what do you mean by "print preview"?
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After many years of occasional printing, I've decided to get serious. Based on the discussions here I've purchased a Benq 2700 monitor and an Epson P600 printer and my first efforts are making me crazy. I have calibrated the monitor with the included software and the Spider 5. I am using the latest version of Lightroom. The image looks fine on the screen with Softproof enabled. When I do a print preview, the image looks very different. It is darker and the colours are off.
What am I doing wrong?
The most likely thing, as I know well from experience, is that you have both LR and the printer managing colors. It should be one or the other, not both. And preferably have LR manage colors.
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I'm sorry, I'm too new at this to know how to answer your question. Which settings are you referring to? As far as the print preview, the Epson printer provides a preview option. The first print I made was equally terrible so I'm using the preview function to save paper.
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The most likely thing, as I know well from experience, is that you have both LR and the printer managing colors. It should be one or the other, not both. And preferably have LR manage colors.
I checked that 😀 Lightroom is set to let the printer manage
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I'm sorry, I'm too new at this to know how to answer your question. Which settings are you referring to? As far as the print preview, the Epson printer provides a preview option. The first print I made was equally terrible so I'm using the preview function to save paper.
Settings in the LR and settings in the printer driver. Printer preview may not be properly color managed. For instance, I am attaching my LR settings and my Canon printer driver settings (only color matching):
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Forgot to add: welcome to the forum! :)
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Forgot to add: welcome to the forum! :)
Thanks! I'm tied up now, I should get back to my desktop tomorrow morning. The print preview looked very much like the print and nothing like the Lightroom soft proof.
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While I try to find a way to shrink my screen prints down to a size so I can post them, can anyone suggest somewhere where I can learn the basics of printing to a printer in Lightroom? I have a couple of books and have taken a couple of online courses, but nothing has given me anything that helps with this problem. I am so frustrated, I just don't know where to turn next. Even what I thought were basics have turned into problems I just can't solve. I bought a couple of packages of Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Glossy. Epson doesn't have a profile for that paper for the P600!
Please forgive the rant!!
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The Digital Print: Preparing Images in Lightroom and Photoshop for Printing (http://www.amazon.com/The-Digital-Print-Preparing-Lightroom/dp/0321908457) by our very own forum member and the expert on the topic, Jeff Schewe.
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While I try to find a way to shrink my screen prints down to a size so I can post them...
If you are on a Mac, "command-shift-4" will generate a pointer, which, when dragged, will create a rectangle around an area you want to screenshot. There should be something similar on Windows.
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If you are on a Mac, "command-shift-4" will generate a pointer, which, when dragged, will create a rectangle around an area you want to screenshot. There should be something similar on Windows.
Thanks I'm on windows so I'll see what I can find
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Thanks I'm on windows so I'll see what I can find
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Thanks Slobodan. Here are 3 of the setting windows, do you see anything obvious that I'm messing up?
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... do you see anything obvious that I'm messing up?
Of course... "Managed by Printer"
You let the printer manage colors, yet you say "Epson doesn't have a profile for that paper for the P600!," while apparently LR does. So why not let LR manager everything, from soft-proofing to printing?
Also, I am not familiar with Epson drivers. For instance, what other drop-down menus are available for choices "Color" "Mode" and "Advanced"?
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Of course... "Managed by Printer"
You let the printer manage colors, yet you say "Epson doesn't have a profile for that paper for the P600!," while apparently LR does. So why not let LR manager everything, from soft-proofing to printing?
Also, I am not familiar with Epson drivers. For instance, what other drop-down menus are available for choices "Color" "Mode" and "Advanced"?
Thanks very much for your patience!
For the Soft Proof, LR is using the same partially correct profile as the printer... "Epson Premium Photo Paper Glossy"
The Color setting is basically color or Black and White
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Exactly as Slobodan says... you're messing up your color management by telling Lightroom the printer is managing colors; while at the same time you're telling the print driver that Lightroom is managing it. It's a classic mistake and inevitably leads to poor results.
You have two ways you can go...
If you want to let the printer manage colors, leave your first dialog as it is ("Managed by Printer" under 'Color Management'); then in the subsequent printer dialog, go to COLOR MATCHING and select "Epson Color Controls").
Or, you can use the method preferred by most serious printers and use profiles. In that case you'll need to go into that first LR dialog, and under 'Color Management' click on the up/down arrow mark just to the right of "Managed by Printer." That will give you a drop-down of all your available profiles. Select the appropriate one. In your case it will probably be something like SC-P600 Series Premium Photo Paper Glossy.
Either method will give you pretty good results. The second is more predicable and controllable, which is why it is generally preferred.
A couple other quick thoughts...
Soft-proofing implies use of a profile. That means the second method.
If your prints are still too dark, it's probably because your monitor is set to a too-bright luminance level.
Welcome to the forum!
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Why don't you try to let LR manage the whole process?
I am also confused: you first say :"Epson doesn't have a profile for that paper for the P600!," then you say something that contradicts that: "the same partially correct profile as the printer... "Epson Premium Photo Paper Glossy."
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Just like the other say:
The same profile you use for soft-proofing should be selected in the Lr Print dialog.
As for the Epson driver, if you are using a profile in LR, in Mode (J) you must choose "Off (No color adjustment)".
In the Media Type box, you don't "choose a profile" you choose the type of media that you`re going to print on.
You don't have to choose any profile in the Epson driver, you choose it in LR.
Hope it clarifies things.
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Why don't you try to let LR manage the whole process?
I am also confused: you first say :"Epson doesn't have a profile for that paper for the P600!," then you say something that contradicts that: "the same partially correct profile as the printer... "Epson Premium Photo Paper Glossy."
I can't find a profile for the Ultra Premium paper. It says on the paper package to use the Premium profile if you don't have the Ultra Premium profile
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Just like the other say:
The same profile you use for soft-proofing should be selected in the Lr Print dialog.
As for the Epson driver, if you are using a profile in LR, in Mode (J) you must choose "Off (No color adjustment)".
In the Media Type box, you don't "choose a profile" you choose the type of media that you`re going to print on.
Are you talking about the printer dialogue box that opens when you click printer in the lower right corner?
I don't see anywhere in the LR print function that I can specify a profile. Mode only has Adobe RGB, sRGB, ICM(?) and off.
You don't have to choose any profile in the Epson driver, you choose it in LR.
Hope it clarifies things.
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The Preview is pretty close to what I'm getting from the printer. The water is almost dark grey and over all it is flat.
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All the Printer settings I have mentioned are from the Lightroom Printer dialogue. What mode should I be using? My choices are Adobe RGB, sRGB, ICM (?) and none. Nowhere in the printer dialogue box am I given the option of selecting the Epson ICC that I was able to select in the soft proof. I Tried the None and the ICM and the prints are terrible; the water is almost black and all the other colours are very washed out.
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Do not rely on the printer preview for color management. They are typically not color managed.
Here:
PS: You might need to brush up on how to download and install proper paper profiles and tell LR where to find it.
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Do not rely on the printer preview for color management. They are typically not color managed.
Here:
PS: You might need to brush up on how to download and install proper paper profiles and tell LR where to find it.
I had the profile set up properly most of the time. I am not trying to use the preview for color management. What I'm trying to say is that the preview looks more like the final print than the Soft proof does.
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Ok, now that you have the same profile in soft proof mode and in the LR Printer dialog, just turn off Epson's color management and print. Still too dark? Than your monitor is too bright. You also need to read this on this site:
http://luminous-landscape.com/why-are-my-prints-too-dark/
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Slobodan, they aren't too dark, the colours are wrong. Some are washed out while others are just wrong. I got much better results by going back to my original image and printing it without any Lightroom corrections. I took another high key image and when I did a soft proof, it showed virtually everything outside of gamut. I printed it straight and it was fine. Maybe I'll buy some paper I can get the right profile for and see what happens.
Thanks for your help. I think I'll take a break from printing for a while until my blood pressure returns to normal.
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Slobodan, they aren't too dark, the colours are wrong. Some are washed out while others are just wrong
Even after you have the same profile in soft proof mode and in the LR Printer dialog, and turn off Epson's color management?
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Even after you have the same profile in soft proof mode and in the LR Printer dialog, and turn off Epson's color management?
Yes
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You've almost certainly still gotten something messed up with your settings, Ken.
Of note, in your examples you show Premium Glossy as the profile you've selected, yet you say you're printing to Ultra Premium Luster? That's a mismatch right there that's going to give you lousy results.
The key thing you have to remember is that your color management (either managed by printer or managed by LR, via a profile) has to be consistent in both LR and the print driver.
It might be helpful to start from the beginning, go slowly, carefully examining each dialog, and share a screenshot of what you're looking at and selecting.
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You've almost certainly still gotten something messed up with your settings, Ken.
Of note, in your examples you show Premium Glossy as the profile you've selected, yet you say you're printing to Ultra Premium Luster? That's a mismatch right there that's going to give you lousy results.
The key thing you have to remember is that your color management (either managed by printer or managed by LR, via a profile) has to be consistent in both LR and the print driver.
It might be helpful to start from the beginning, go slowly, carefully examining each dialog, and share a screenshot of what you're looking at and selecting.
Hello Ken,
You have certainly received a lot of good information concerning your struggle with the printer etc. The first thing I would ask is a very fundamental question - have you done a nozzle check to make sure ALL of your inks are firing properly? Sometimes you can get caught up in the minutia and forget the basics. I'm sure you have probably already taken care of that and determined that all nozzles are delivering ink, but it can't hurt to try another one just to be certain. Beyond that, it has been mentioned that this would seem to be a mismatch of settings, one in conflict with another. At first glance this can be somewhat confusing, but once the problem is solved it becomes a natural routine. As suggested by Jager, it's probably a good idea to start from scratch. Break the process down into individual components. And another thing I would advise is that you keep notes of every step along the way. In other words, whenever you try something different(a different setting for example) be sure you make note of that along with all of the other settings. In reality this is the only way you will be able to determine which group of settings is working and delivering the desired results.
If you are printing from LR, let LR do all of the work. Find the profile for the paper you want to print on, set the print resolution etc. and you good to go. However, the one thing that you must remember is to make sure you are not letting the printer manage the colour. Keep in mind that the program you are working in should be managing the output, otherwise it's a futile task. Most of my printing is done through Photoshop, since it is mostly medium to high volume work and I find PS to be faster than LR for that sort of printing. Therefore, when I go the the print dialog I have to be sure that Photoshop is managing the colour and then I can chose the paper profile as necessary. When the printer manages the colour you do not have access to any paper profiles. In LR it's somewhat different, since you chose the paper profile, resolution etc. in LR, and that also means the LR is manages the colour.
Perhaps if you were to try to print an image through Photoshop you will be able to understand the process more quickly, since you would be forced to make those settings in the print dialog, not in PS. I hope I have been able to make my point clearly. All I've done is digest the previous suggestions and try to put then in perhaps a more logical order for you. I hope this helps Ken.
Welcome to LuLa,
Gary
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Thanks to everyone who is trying to help.
To summarize. There is no profile on the Epson site for the for the Ultra Premium glossy paper I'm using so as per the instructions on the package I'm using the Premium glossy paper profile.
The printer is new and I haven't done a nozzle check so I'll do that.
It seems the problem may be with the soft proofing process. If I choose an image I haven't done any changes to, just bring it into Lightroom and print it via Lightroom the resulting print look like the image I see on the screen. When I look at it in the soft proofing mode and make the changes the bring it into gamut the resulting print is terrible.
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The printer is new and I haven't done a nozzle check so I'll do that.
It seems the problem may be with the soft proofing process. If I choose an image I haven't done any changes to, just bring it into Lightroom and print it via Lightroom the resulting print look like the image I see on the screen. When I look at it in the soft proofing mode and make the changes the bring it into gamut the resulting print is terrible.
Definitely run a nozzle check. The fact that the printer is new does not necessarily mean that all of the nozzles are firing properly. They probably are, but you can never know for certain until you view a nozzle check pattern. When you soft proof, which paper profile are you using? I suppose there could perhaps be an issue with the soft proofing process, but if I were a betting man I'd put my money on it being a flaw somewhere else in the printing workflow. Just a thought.
Gary
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Thanks to everyone who is trying to help.
To summarize. There is no profile on the Epson site for the for the Ultra Premium glossy paper I'm using so as per the instructions on the package I'm using the Premium glossy paper profile.
The printer is new and I haven't done a nozzle check so I'll do that.
It seems the problem may be with the soft proofing process. If I choose an image I haven't done any changes to, just bring it into Lightroom and print it via Lightroom the resulting print look like the image I see on the screen. When I look at it in the soft proofing mode and make the changes the bring it into gamut the resulting print is terrible.
Ok, sounds like you are using the correct profile.
Your soft-proof is probably getting clobbered because you're still directing the print driver do color management, as your previous dialog screenshot and your question ("which should I use... ?") a few posts above would suggest. Soft proofing only works with a profile. You have to make color management 'None' or 'Off' in the print driver.
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Ok, sounds like you are using the correct profile.
Your soft-proof is probably getting clobbered because you're still directing the print driver do color management, as your previous dialog screenshot and your question ("which should I use... ?") a few posts above would suggest. Soft proofing only works with a profile. You have to make color management 'None' or 'Off' in the print driver.
One the printer I have specified "none" in mode, and in soft proofing I have specified the same profile as I have in the Lightroom print panel. For the time being, I'm just not using making any adjustments in the soft proofing. My print looks much better and more like the monitor if I ignore the soft proofing
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... My print looks much better and more like the monitor if I ignore the soft proofing
There are several issues with soft proofing. One is that gamut warning is only indicating that something is out of gamut, but not by how much. In other words, if you are trying to get the gamut warning disappear completely, you might be overcompensating, resulting in dull images.
Another thing, when you have "simulate paper and ink" checked, the resulting soft-proof image looks immediately less contrasty and washed out, so once again one tends to overcompensate for that, especially if one quickly toggles between checked and unchecked. The trick is to let one's eyes adjust to the "washed" out colors before attempting compensation.
Also, see if switching between "perceptual" and "relative" improves your print.
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One the printer I have specified "none" in mode, and in soft proofing I have specified the same profile as I have in the Lightroom print panel. For the time being, I'm just not using making any adjustments in the soft proofing. My print looks much better and more like the monitor if I ignore the soft proofing
Printer Dialog: Mode should be set to Off (no color management), the media type should be set to Epson Glossy
Lightroom: the correct profile should be selected. Start with Relative Colorimetric as a rendering intent. It is more predicable than perceptual.
Forget about trying to edit out-of-gamut colors back into gamut until you know more about what you are doing. It is the job of the profile to move out-of-gamut colors (OOG) into gamut. The relative colormetric rendering intent will shift OOG colors to the in-gamut boundary, perceptual will shift in-gamut colors further into gamut to make room for the OOG colors it then shifts into gamut.
The preview window that comes up when you check Preview in the printer driver's dialog is generated by the operating system, and it is not color managed. The chances of the print matching the preview colors is so extremely low, that if it is even close, there is probably something wrong with your workflow. The preview is there for you to check that you aren't printing 200 sheets when you thought you were printing one, that the orientation is correct, the borders (if any) are in the right place, and the whole image is fitting on the page.
Brian A
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Printer Dialog: Mode should be set to Off (no color management), the media type should be set to Epson Glossy
Lightroom: the correct profile should be selected. Start with Relative Colorimetric as a rendering intent. It is more predicable than perceptual.
Forget about trying to edit out-of-gamut colors back into gamut until you know more about what you are doing. It is the job of the profile to move out-of-gamut colors (OOG) into gamut. The relative colormetric rendering intent will shift OOG colors to the in-gamut boundary, perceptual will shift in-gamut colors further into gamut to make room for the OOG colors it then shifts into gamut.
The preview window that comes up when you check Preview in the printer driver's dialog is generated by the operating system, and it is not color managed. The chances of the print matching the preview colors is so extremely low, that if it is even close, there is probably something wrong with your workflow. The preview is there for you to check that you aren't printing 200 sheets when you thought you were printing one, that the orientation is correct, the borders (if any) are in the right place, and the whole image is fitting on the page.
Brian A
The results are much better when I stop trying to adjust things to get rid of all the out of gamut stuff. The prints I am now getting are much closer to what I'm seeing on the screen. Thanks everyone!!
What is the reason for soft proofing?
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The results are much better when I stop trying to adjust things to get rid of all the out of gamut stuff. The prints I am now getting are much closer to what I'm seeing on the screen. Thanks everyone!!
What is the reason for soft proofing?
I have found that in many cases, trying to correct for out of gamut colours is a futile and somewhat destructive procedure. Of all the files I have printed for my customers I think I have actually made some gamut corrections on perhaps 5-10% of them, and in each case it was a very minor adjustment. In other words, if a colour is radically out of gamut you will likely ruin the rest of the image trying to correct that one colour. In some cases I have simply made such adjustments on a separate layer and brushed them in on a layer mask where necessary, thereby keeping the rest of the image intact. When it comes to soft proofing I use it a lot on some papers and not at all on others. I find that it is most helpful on photo papers and much less so on matte(fine art) papers. I use Epson Enhanced Matte for one of my customers, since it is less costly than the hot and cold press varieties that I would normally print on. I found very early on that soft proofing Enhanced Matte is totally useless. If I were to make the necessary adjustments to a soft proofed EnhMatte image the print would show far too much contrast and much darker than necessary. Therefore I do not use SP with EnhMatte, never. Hot and cold press occasionally, but I'm quite comfortable adjusting for those papers without SP as well. In reference to the printer dialog preview(matching), on the Mac that was broken in OS X 10.9(Mavericks) and has not been fixed. I'm still using Mavericks, so it may have been fixed in 10.10 or 10.11, not sure. However, since I would seldom use the "matching" part of the preview, that's no big loss for me. If you find that you get better results without trying to correct gamut that's really not a surprise, so go with what works for you. It's really that simple.
Gary
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Thanks Gary
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I use soft proofing mostly to see what is out of gamut and what is not. If nothing or only small areas are out of gamut, then I will use relative colorimetric rendering. If there are largish areas out of gamut, I will consider using perceptual rendering. Apart from showing possible gamut problems, I find soft proofing matte papers a waste of time - the soft proofs always look too muted and washed out. With gloss/semi-gloss/lustre/silk/satin/pearl/semi-matte/photo-matte the soft proof works.
Brian A