Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: orc73 on February 13, 2016, 03:33:03 am
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As some of you may know, PhaseONE choose to block the Pentax MF cameras in version 9. While it used to be working in v8.
Fair enough, it's their software.
Here what was posted by PhaseOne on their forum:
We have always been clear in this regard, since the very first Capture One software.
We do support a vast range of small and micro format cameras.
With medium format we only support our own "Team Phase One" * camera solutions.
We have never misled anyone in this regard.
We have never changed or revised this policy.
Nor should anyone expect it to change.
If you want to use Capture One in your medium format solution, then purchase a Phase One or Mamiya-Leaf solution.
This thread ends here.
Any new thread with the same topic will simply be deleted.
* "Team Phase One" includes: Phase One, Leaf and Mamiya.
Kind Regards
Ulf Liljegren
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I think it's perfectly reasonable not to support Pentax even without 'fearing' it as competition; it requires additional work and you're just helping your competition - so why do it?
They don't get paid by Pentax to support their camera and it's not as widely used as Canon, Nikon or Sony (or others) and they didn't have any support for the camera in version 8 - what makes you think they would suddenly change their mind about that in v9?
If Pentax would supply and support their own software (for tethering and raw editing) they'd have to raise the price of the product by a substantial portion - but they don't. They want to keep it as cheap as possible (just as their tech support is cheap-ish) so in my opinion it would be a mistake for PhaseOne/Mamiya to enable this behaviour by supporting the Pentax MF cameras.
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The point is, it was working in v8. So it's not that they don't support it, it's that they blocked it.
However yes it is their product and their right to do so and yes Pentax should buy into a proper solution.
I dont know how many paying Canon or Nikon customer they have, and how many paying Pentax users they would have. And I don't even think this is part of their calculation.
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As some of you may know, PhaseONE choose to block the Pentax MF cameras in version 9. While it used to be working in v8.
Fair enough, it's their software.
Here what was posted by PhaseOne on their forum:
We have always been clear in this regard, since the very first Capture One software.
We do support a vast range of small and micro format cameras.
With medium format we only support our own "Team Phase One" * camera solutions.
We have never misled anyone in this regard.
We have never changed or revised this policy.
Nor should anyone expect it to change.
If you want to use Capture One in your medium format solution, then purchase a Phase One or Mamiya-Leaf solution.
This thread ends here.
Any new thread with the same topic will simply be deleted.
* "Team Phase One" includes: Phase One, Leaf and Mamiya.
Kind Regards
Ulf Liljegren
Does Silkypix support Phase One files? Does Canon DPP support Nikon files? Etc etc
For 12 years C1 has supported nearly all small format cameras and their own line of medium format cameras. It does not represent "fear" of Pentax and more than it represented "fear" of the Mamiya ZD or any other medium format system that has come and gone while C1 had been around.
Also, what are you talking about regarding reliability?? Phase One is widely acknowledged to be the most robust and reliable back made. Call any major rental house in the world and ask them which backs they prefer for issue free tethering; it will be P1 every time. Maybe you are feferring to the fact that on their public support forum there are support issues posted? This is true of literally any product. Very frustrating especially when you get to see how infrequently the issue complained of on the forum was actually the hardware rather than user error or something like a bad USB cable.
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The point is, it was working in v8. So it's not that they don't support it, it's that they blocked it.
However yes it is their product and their right to do so and yes Pentax should buy into a proper solution.
I dont know how many paying Canon or Nikon customer they have, and how many paying Pentax users they would have. And I don't even think this is part of their calculation.
As far as I know v8 didn't support Pentax645Z, it wasn't 'working' then and it isn't 'working' now.
However you could get it to work with "Capture One Fix" and if I'm not mistaken it's still possible. But there was never a native solution.
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Let's keep this without emotion.
It's a p1 decision to do this lockout.
Look at list of those 12 years supported cameras, I'm pretty sure 90% bring less revenue, that the Pentax 645z support would bring.
So it is nothing more and nothing less, then a competitive lockout. Which I completely understand given the circumstances.
C1 is positioned as 'the professional choice in imaging software'.
As it looks like it is less of a strategic independent software that support all your camera choices.
The licensing business does not seem to be something interesting for P1.
So it might not be the software of choice for a longterm solution for professionals.
(Canon DPP is marketing itselves as a free software that supports their EOS. So no commercial studio would setup their computers with DPP anyway)
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I disagree.
P1 is entitled to support and not support whichever system they chose and I think their reasons are valid and understandable.
Let's look at is this way:
You're a dentist who charges relatively high fees for specialised operations of a very high professional standard and low fees for post-op treatment.
Suddenly a rival appears who charges very little for similar operations but doesn't offer any post-op (and you're not sure if his procedures are up to your standards and if perhaps complications would arise during your treatment) - would you still offer his patients post-op treatments?
I wouldn't.
But I would offer post-op for patients of doctors who offer different treatments - as long and they wouldn't be considered as business rivals.
If people want to go for the "low-end" option that's perfectly fine.
But if you buy a Suzuki-engine and put it in a BMW-chassis you shouldn't blame BMW if it doesn't fit, work or drive like a BMW...
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What I don't understand is why they wouldn't want to fully compete with Lightroom and drop the holier-than-thou attitude. Sorry - but that's my personal take on the situation, at least.
I think their marketing can often be over-the-top - and seems, to me, to revolve heavily around the mere fact that the word "Pro" is in the title of their software. ::) Plus it doesn't help matters that there tends to be a lot of CO evangelists that piss all over anything non-CO-centric.
IMO, all that detracts from what is otherwise some pretty decent software - and just kinda leaves a 'bad taste in my mouth' so-to-speak. Again, that's at least to me.
With PhaseOne rapidly evolving their DAM functionality as of late.. And saying they want to also evolve their DNG support (but let's leave that discussion for other threads :-X )...
It seems to me like they're wanting to broaden their horizons away from the single-app, single-purpose paradigm of yesteryear. And as well, they should. They have some mighty fine points to their software. And competition can be a Good Thing®. It can keep both software's on their toes.. Which in the end, will all go towards benefiting photographers as a whole as time and technology march on.
Sure, I can understand their point of view in not wanting to support Pentax MF (or even other MF cams for that matter).. I just think it's short-sighted.
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Hi,
It is up to Phase One to support any camera or not. It is better they don't support a camera at all than do it half way.
Phase One is very odd about supporting DNG. For me DNG support is essential, but I guess it is not important at all for P1 customers. For me DNG is a future proof format that I can handle with almost any raw converter.
Obviously, Capture One is a bad choice for users of non Team Phase One MFD devices.
Best regards
Erik
Let's keep this without emotion.
It's a p1 decision to do this lockout.
Look at list of those 12 years supported cameras, I'm pretty sure 90% bring less revenue, that the Pentax 645z support would bring.
So it is nothing more and nothing less, then a competitive lockout. Which I completely understand given the circumstances.
C1 is positioned as 'the professional choice in imaging software'.
As it looks like it is less of a strategic independent software that support all your camera choices.
The licensing business does not seem to be something interesting for P1.
So it might not be the software of choice for a longterm solution for professionals.
(Canon DPP is marketing itselves as a free software that supports their EOS. So no commercial studio would setup their computers with DPP anyway)
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Obviously, Capture One is a bad choice for users of non Team Phase One MFD devices.
I would say Capture One is obviously the best choice, even for users of non Team Phase one MFD devices. ;D
Right now, shooting 90% of the time canon and 10% phase I could easily save myself some cash by using lightroom to tether the canon and C1 in pro mode for the Phase One days but color rendering and tethered workflow on C1 is years ahead of those on lightroom. This is a personal opinion of course but I feel like people complaining about C1's lack of support for the pentax like the color rendering also.
P.D: Why is nobody asking for Hasselblad support?? the H5Dc is a really nice camera with the same sensor, great LS lenses and true focus and is still cheaper than the phase! still, when I eventually use a friend's H4d40 I just complain about Phocus and not Phase Ones lack of support ;D
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OK, so now I have the XF and 100MP back. I always liked the images coming out of my P45+, but sold it due to connection isses while using Hasselblad V cameras.. So when the 645Z had been out a while I bought it. I have thousands of Z files that I would like to bring into a C1 catalogs/sessions. My files are currently on an external drive. If I convert them to Tiff can they then be imported into C1? Have not seen a batch process for importing images into C1 where one can change the file extension, but then I am VERY new to C1.
Any help?
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Hi,
You say that you use C1 with Canon and Phase One, both systems supported by C1. In what way does that help Hasselblad, Pentax 645+ or Leica S owners?
Best regards
Erik
I would say Capture One is obviously the best choice, even for users of non Team Phase one MFD devices. ;D
Right now, shooting 90% of the time canon and 10% phase I could easily save myself some cash by using lightroom to tether the canon and C1 in pro mode for the Phase One days but color rendering and tethered workflow on C1 is years ahead of those on lightroom. This is a personal opinion of course but I feel like people complaining about C1's lack of support for the pentax like the color rendering also.
P.D: Why is nobody asking for Hasselblad support?? the H5Dc is a really nice camera with the same sensor, great LS lenses and true focus and is still cheaper than the phase! still, when I eventually use a friend's H4d40 I just complain about Phocus and not Phase Ones lack of support ;D
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Neglected to mention my 645Z files are currently in DNG format.
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Hi,
I don't have any good info on the present state.
Some say that Capture One can process DNG files from Leica S or Pentax 645Z. Not supported is grey zone. But not supported means no colour profiles.
Capture One's support for DNG used to be ice cold but may now be lukewarm, but don't assume a complete DNG compliant processing pipeline. I would guess that Capture One uses the raw data from DNG but not the colour conversion tables.
Best regards
Erik
Neglected to mention my 645Z files are currently in DNG format.
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Apprecviate the input Eric
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So I successfukly imported into C1 some 645Z files converted to Tiffs. No time today, but sure hope I can work them like I can with my XF files.
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So I successfukly imported into C1 some 645Z files converted to Tiffs. No time today, but sure hope I can work them like I can with my XF files.
You cannot.
A TIFF has already discarded a lot of the data contained in the raw file.
For a full raw editing experience one wants raw files, not processed tiffs.
However, since C1 does not support 645Z or 645D raw files this is the only official way forward for you. Moving forward, of course, all your Phase One raw files are not just "supported" but have extensive effort put behind the nuances of their rendering in C1.
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Hi,
A raw image is 16 bit tiff file, often limited to 14 bit of information. So all tonal information can be contained in a 16-bit tiff file. What is lost is undemosaiced data. So, you can use a raw converter like RawTherapee or Iridient's Raw developer and make sure that you use 16 bit TIFFs containing all data. The main disadvantage is that that TIFF files are very fat. It may also be that someone comes up with a great demosaic algorithm and using TIFFs you cannot apply that.
Personally, I would take the view that Capture One doesn't support raw data from direct competitors. If you want Capture One, go with Phase One, Leaf or buy a Sony A7rII that C1 also supports.
If you want to use a Pentax 645z, just use a raw processing pipeline that supports it. Most will do, Capture One is the exception.
Phase One has made the choice to not support competing MFD systems. That is a choice they made and they are quite clear about that.
You can have some trepidation to use Pentax 645z in C1, but there is absolutely no assurance it will work in the next version of C1.
Best regards
Erik
You cannot.
A TIFF has already discarded a lot of the data contained in the raw file.
For a full raw editing experience one wants raw files, not processed tiffs.
However, since C1 does not support 645Z or 645D raw files this is the only official way forward for you. Moving forward, of course, all your Phase One raw files are not just "supported" but have extensive effort put behind the nuances of their rendering in C1.
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Hi,
Just to say, that interview is extremely great!
https://luminous-landscape.com/videos/luminous-landscape-video-journal-issue-16/interview-charles-cramer/
Best regards
Erik
Hi,
A raw image is 16 bit tiff file, often limited to 14 bit of information. So all tonal information can be contained in a 16-bit tiff file. What is lost is undemosaiced data. So, you can use a raw converter like RawTherapee or Iridient's Raw developer and make sure that you use 16 bit TIFFs containing all data. The main disadvantage is that that TIFF files are very fat. It may also be that someone comes up with a great demosaic algorithm and using TIFFs you cannot apply that.
Personally, I would take the view that Capture One doesn't support raw data from direct competitors. If you want Capture One, go with Phase One, Leaf or buy a Sony A7rII that C1 also supports.
If you want to use a Pentax 645z, just use a raw processing pipeline that supports it. Most will do, Capture One is the exception.
Phase One has made the choice to not support competing MFD systems. That is a choice they made and they are quite clear about that.
You can have some trepidation to use Pentax 645z in C1, but there is absolutely no assurance it will work in the next version of C1.
Best regards
Erik
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Thanks both Doug and Eric. Hey, I got the Z (Doug knows why) not imagining I would now be using C1 since I never even used it with my P45+. Now I realize I was short sighted in not trying C1 way back then. Nevertheless, I am stuck with a few thousand Z files which I like very much and have processed many and saved them as tiffs as with my Leica M files. Guess I can at least print those tiffs through C1 without issue if they are all optimized to my satisfaction.
Since I am getting into C1 and after having viewed LULa's C1-7 tutorial plus the other C1 tutorials I realize it will take some effort to get to a point to begin processing the way I like, but I do like the Sessions/Catalog options as well as all the customization available. Layers comes more naturally to me too. Very powerful software.
Never a dull moment.
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Hi algrove,
Here's a slightly different perspective:
1. If you've already rendered your Pentax captures to Tiffs, why would you bother trying to process them further with (anyone's brand of) software designed/intended for raw file processing. Why not use "the real thing"? ;) Finalize them with Photoshop, as that's what it was originally designed for? Now after 20+ years of development, it has tools & capabilities obviously way beyond any make of raw processing software (of course, talking about use on rendered files here).
or
2. If you want to go back & re-process your Pentax .dng capture files (yeah, maybe a herculean task, I know - but if you really want to bring out that amazing image quality...), there is a work-around to let you do this from within CaptureOne. Check out this guy's site: CaptureFix (http://www.alexmunoz.net/capturefix/) - he's developed a hack to allow processing & even tethered capture using C1.
Disclaimer: I am not associated with this in any way, and not even clear on whether there might be any possible hazards, legal or otherwise, going this route.
I did briefly try an earlier version of his hack - it was really nice to use C1 on my Pentax .dngs, but I had issues with the color, since I didn't have a satisfactory ICC profile for Pentax (if you can master dcamprof, it might be a different story now). As you can tell, going this route would involve a fair bit of DIY technical expertise, but some folks are so inclined...
Good luck!
John
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John
Thanks for your comments. The DNG I want to get into C1 have not been worked on as yet so it would not be redoing what could have been done in LR?PS. Coverting to tiffs seemed like the fsstest way to get those DNG files into C1 if I want to use C1 instead of PS etc.
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Maybe I'm not following you here (and apologies in advance if I've misunderstood and just restating basics you are already well aware of)?
After you convert a .dng to a .tif, it's no longer a raw capture file. Your original Pentax .dng capture is now "fully baked", meaning it's rendered into a conventional pixels image file - even if it's a 16-bit .tif file. There's no going back to alter the conversion from raw .dng to processed .tif (other than going back to whatever app you used for the initial conversion & generating a new .tif). As far as I'm aware, the only way to get CaptureOne to edit Pentax .dng capture files is that guy's "hack" that I referred to earlier (and of course, Phase is probably not too pleased with that situation, so caveat emptor).
One of my points was to question if CaptureOne would be the best choice to edit processed image files (.tifs). Most of C1's strengths apply to processing/converting raw capture files. As capable as it is, I don't think it compares to Photoshop if you're editing already processed image files.
Of course, use whatever app(s) work for you - I mainly wanted to clarify implications of that that raw (.dng) vs. processed (.tif) business.
Happy shooting,
John
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Hi,
Just to explain a bit…
Tiff files can contain all the tonality information in the raw file. The raw file is in fact a TIFF file, what happens with raw conversion are a few things:
- The RGBG channels of the raw image are demosaiced, this increases file size 3-6 times. The processing here also handles aliasing.
- The RGB channel information is converted into some well defined colour space. Phase One pundits may argue that C1 uses camera colour space. Anyway there is a step in processing where RGB numbers are converted into something like colour.
- At some stage in the processing, a gamma curve will be applied. According to most colour experts, manipulation is best done in linear space. Just as an example, changing contrast will mostly also lead to colour shift in a gamma encoded space.
There is something called parametric or non destructive workflow. One interpretation of the term is to delay raw conversion until it is needed. The workflow works with the raw image and just keeps record of a set of processing instructions that are applied when an image is needed.
Let's assume that Phase One or Adobe comes up with a new demosaic algorithm. In the parametric workflow it can be just dropped in and it will apply to all images. Lightroom has this, they are called Processing Variants, and they go far beyond just the demosaic part. My understanding is that there is something similar in Capture One v. 9.
With TIFFs the initial processing is already done, including demosaic and basic rendition of colour.
Best regards
Erik
Maybe I'm not following you here (and apologies in advance if I've misunderstood and just restating basics you are already well aware of)?
After you convert a .dng to a .tif, it's no longer a raw capture file. Your original Pentax .dng capture is now "fully baked", meaning it's rendered into a conventional pixels image file - even if it's a 16-bit .tif file. There's no going back to alter the conversion from raw .dng to processed .tif (other than going back to whatever app you used for the initial conversion & generating a new .tif). As far as I'm aware, the only way to get CaptureOne to edit Pentax .dng capture files is that guy's "hack" that I referred to earlier (and of course, Phase is probably not too pleased with that situation, so caveat emptor).
One of my points was to question if CaptureOne would be the best choice to edit processed image files (.tifs). Most of C1's strengths apply to processing/converting raw capture files. As capable as it is, I don't think it compares to Photoshop if you're editing already processed image files.
Of course, use whatever app(s) work for you - I mainly wanted to clarify implications of that that raw (.dng) vs. processed (.tif) business.
Happy shooting,
John