Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: Alan Goldhammer on February 10, 2016, 03:05:18 pm
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Interesting review by Mark Segal of this printing program. I wonder why they didn't port the software to Windows for those of us who do not use MacOS. Providing the bulk of code was written in an OS independent manner, porting shouldn't be all that difficult. Perhaps LaserSoft assumes everyone uses MacOS. Mark is correct that getting LR setup for printing is complicated as it involves both use of the printer driver software as well as LR but once you have set things up and saved the preset that's it. I only use a couple of different paper settings so I'm not one who would take advantage of all the PrinTao features. Here are some things that occured to me after reading the review:
1. It looks like you are dependent on PrinTao to support the paper you commonly use, correct? I would be out of luck since I commonly print on Museo Silver Rag and Portfolio Rag and according to the website these are not supported. This is a big drawback since new papers come out semi-regularly and you would not be able to use them until the developer adds that support. It's also not apparent that you can control ink laydown or in the case of B/W toning or contrast as one can with the Epson ABW driver.
2. Mark comments on the feature that allows one to print a variety of images on a single piece of paper for subsequent cutting. However, the "nested best cut" image looks like it would not be very easy to cut with a Rotatrim but would be easy with an X-Acto knife and a ruler (not best practice).
3. The attached video mispronounces the word 'tao' (unless LaserSoft pronounces it this way or there is an alternative pronunciation unknown to me). It also shows how you can cue up multiple images for printing. I can see how this might be advantages if one is printing from rolls but cannot see the value if you are using cut sheets as you have to reload the printer after each print and it's just as easy to cue up the next print in LR while the current one is printing.
4. The software is more like a RIP in that it is printer and paper dependent (LR doesn't care what printer and paper you are using as you set those up independently). I already posed the question about moving to an unsupported paper. What happens if you buy a new printer? Can you transfer your license over or do you have to buy a new software package? Furthermore, for those fortunate to have multiple printers of different format/makes, it appears that they would have to buy separate software packages which can add up in cost particularly if they are large format printers.
5. The requirement to print outside of LR using a TIFF or PSD is not all that inviting for me. Like Mark I seldom use PS these days and the convenience of LR for managing all my needs from library through to printing is superb. Maybe for those who really have lots of different print sizes PrinTao would make a difference. For me it looks like it really would add a couple of more steps.
Those niggles aside, complements of a good review.
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I haven't watched the video but I've always pronounced "tao" as dow, like in Dow Chemical. Multiple former colleagues, born & raised in various parts of China, have told me this is correct (though apparently not the only correct way…"Chinese" has variants so dissimilar to each other they may as well be separate languages).
-Dave-
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I haven't watched the video but I've always pronounced "tao" as dow, like in Dow Chemical. Multiple former colleagues, born & raised in various parts of China, have told me this is correct (though apparently not the only correct way…"Chinese" has variants so dissimilar to each other they may as well be separate languages).
-Dave-
I also thought Kevin was mispronouncing it and thought it was pronounced the way you think it should be.
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Dear Alan,
this is Jan-Willem from LSI, the makers of PrinTao 8. I saw your post and thought I could provide some insight to some of the questions you raised.
Interesting review by Mark Segal of this printing program. I wonder why they didn't port the software to Windows for those of us who do not use MacOS. Providing the bulk of code was written in an OS independent manner, porting shouldn't be all that difficult. Perhaps LaserSoft assumes everyone uses MacOS.
Currently we're not planning to port the software to Windows. Our "other" product SilverFast 8 supports both platforms but writing code in an OS independent manner does bring some drawbacks along. When we started designing PrinTao 8 from scratch our boss made a very bold decision at an early stage of the project to drop support for Windows platform because we didn't want to have to make compromises in the final product in order to support both platforms. This is NOT a statement on which platform is the better one. We just wanted to make use of some of the technology the OS X platform provides in order to design the software functionality and user experience we had in mind. PrinTao 8 would look and feel very different if we had pursued the dual platform strategy. Again, we're not saying Apple is better than Windows, we all have our personal preferences of course, yet as strange as it may sound, we actually consider being Mac only with PrinTao 8 a unique selling point over the other solutions out there. The typical Mac user likes things to be done in a certain way and for this particular product we wanted to make sure that our product will cater the special expectations of the Apple community 100% and I think we succeeded pretty well. Did I mention that Apple is not better than Windows ???
1. It looks like you are dependent on PrinTao to support the paper you commonly use, correct? I would be out of luck since I commonly print on Museo Silver Rag and Portfolio Rag and according to the website these are not supported. This is a big drawback since new papers come out semi-regularly and you would not be able to use them until the developer adds that support. It's also not apparent that you can control ink laydown or in the case of B/W toning or contrast as one can with the Epson ABW driver.
No, you don't have to wait for PrinTao 8 to support the paper you commonly use. If you have an ICC-profile (vendor or custom) that reflects your printer, paper and ink combination you can easily add your paper to PrinTao via the Media Manager which also provides the advanced media control for ink laydown etc etc. This has to be setup only once and we have a video on Youtube which shows the Media Manager in action. Actually my only criticism of Mark's review would be that it neglects the Media Manager a little bit but it's actually really really neat. But the movie shows this much better than I could describe it here with words --> PrinTao - Install new Papers (https://youtu.be/V9lLaJ5y3I0)
5. The requirement to print outside of LR using a TIFF or PSD is not all that inviting for me. Like Mark I seldom use PS these days and the convenience of LR for managing all my needs from library through to printing is superb. Maybe for those who really have lots of different print sizes PrinTao would make a difference. For me it looks like it really would add a couple of more steps.
Those niggles aside, complements of a good review.
It is a very good review even if it's not mentioning the Photoshop & Lightroom plugin we provide free of charge. ;D This plug-in (http://www.printao8.com/overview/features/lightroom-plugin/) allows you to directly print images from your Lightroom library with PrinTao 8.
Hope someone might find my feedback helpful and make sure to visit our PrinTao 8 Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEDkkXjoxWNjHRqEPX1fD4w). Best regards from Kiel - or as we like to call it the "birthplace of imaging" 8) . Jan-Willem
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@Jan-Willem,
Thank you for the clarification. As I noted being a Windows user, PrinTao unfortunately will not be a product that I will be able to use. Yes, it is easier to develop for only one platform since you do have some OS issues that have to be dealt with. I'm sorry that the company elected this route as it does limit the market for the product. Also thank you for mentioning the media manager as it was not evident from the review that this ability exists.
Good luck with the launch of the product and I'm sorry that I won't be able to utilize it as there are some nice features.
Alan
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This plug-in allows you to directly print images from your Lightroom library with PrinTao 8.
So does this mean the you can print directly from raw files rather than jpegs using the plugin with Lightroom?
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Good luck with the launch of the product and I'm sorry that I won't be able to utilize it as there are some nice features.
Hi Alan,
Not to derail the thread, but for Windows users there is an alternative called Qimage Ultimate (http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage-u/index.html), which arguably produces the best image quality (seeing is believing). It also served as 'inspiration' for programs with similar functionality. Its low price is misinterpreted by some people, the price is inversely proportional to the output quality.
Cheers,
Bart
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So does this mean the you can print directly from raw files rather than jpegs using the plugin with Lightroom?
Yes, that's correct.
P.S: Technically not even Lightroom prints directly from raw files because a raw file is like an undeveloped film in the analogue world, but it's PrinTao's job to worry about these details. If you have all your raw files organised in a Lightroom catalogue, you won't have to export a JPEG prior to printing with PrinTao. Watch the Lightroom and PrinTao in action here. (https://youtu.be/txbG1LrBovM?t=1m21s)
Best, Jan-Willem
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The real problem I have found so far is the difference between Image size and Cell size. Image size seems to be self evident but cell size is downright confusing. Cell size should - IMO - be the size of the media. So, I want to print on a roll of paper that is 44 inches wide. My image size is 48 X 25. I want 5 inches of blank paper on both the leading edge and lagging edge. How do I do that? My Canon printer is only able to be set to cut - which I don't want. I would much prefer to have cut marks provided for me to cut manually - so far impossible.
Very clumsy so far......
Victor
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Actually my only criticism of Mark's review would be that it neglects the Media Manager a little bit but it's actually really really neat. But the movie shows this much better than I could describe it here with words -
Hi Jan, indeed - somehow I failed to deal with the Media Manager in adequate depth - let me just confirm that I agree with you - it is very easy to use and adds a lot of flexibility - in fact when I was testing PrinTao 8 I did install custom profiles and it all worked just fine.
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I haven't watched the video but I've always pronounced "tao" as dow, like in Dow Chemical. Multiple former colleagues, born & raised in various parts of China, have told me this is correct (though apparently not the only correct way…"Chinese" has variants so dissimilar to each other they may as well be separate languages).
-Dave-
From the videos that Jan linked, we are pronouncing it right! It is pronounced like Dow but with a T
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Dear all,
Due to my job, I had printed with a lot of different software such as:
Wasatch, EFI, Colorburst, Imageprint, Qimage......etc.
QI uses printer's driver but does provide other nesting and upsampling features that PS and LR doesn't do, and it does have some good feature to print RGB files.
IP, used it long time ago, not a big fan of a closed loop color management workflow.
Traditional RIP is another story, it's more like building everything from scratch.
I don't have a Mac now so can't test Tao, but what's is PrinTao?
I couldn't really get an answer from the review.
So what I'm guessing is PrinTao uses it's own engine to drives a printer?
Or does it use the factory print engine to drives the printer?
If it uses it's own, then how could I use a canned profile with this software due to the canned ICC was built based on the printer's driver settings.
If that's the other way around, PrinTao is just a nesting software with it's own color engine to render the image differently then other softwares.
Am I correct?
No Offense, just wanna to know
Regard,
ac
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I don't have a Mac now so can't test Tao, but what's is PrinTao?
I couldn't really get an answer from the review.
So what I'm guessing is PrinTao uses it's own engine to drives a printer?
Or does it use the factory print engine to drives the printer?
If it uses it's own, then how could I use a canned profile with this software due to the canned ICC was built based on the printer's driver settings.
If that's the other way around, PrinTao is just a nesting software with it's own color engine to render the image differently then other softwares.
Am I correct?
No Offense, just wanna to know
Regard,
ac
Aaron raises a key point that didn't occur to me when I wrote the first post. If PrinTao uses a different ink lay down than the native printer driver then one needs to profile using PrinTao with no color management to obtain optimal results. It's not clear from the review of website how to do this.
Alan
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Aaron raises a key point that didn't occur to me when I wrote the first post. If PrinTao uses a different ink lay down than the native printer driver then one needs to profile using PrinTao with no color management to obtain optimal results. It's not clear from the review of website how to do this.
Alan
This is absolutely not a "key point". Read the paragraphs in the article under the "Test photos for PrinTao 8" illustration and you will see that there is no problem using your usual custom paper profiles in PrinTao 8. As for the rest of aaronchan's questions, I invite him to read the first sentence under "Philosophy of PT8". I would also invite readers to visit the PrintTao 8 website, which has lots of information.
In line with LuLa's initiative to emphasize the print and to put a focus on "the ease of printing", the primary intent of my PT8 review was to introduce this software to a great many people who may have been otherwise unaware of it and to provide readers with the benefit of my observations emerging from testing its usability and results. Thank you for your interest.
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I would also invite readers to visit the PrintTao 8 website, which has lots of information.
In line with LuLa's initiative to emphasize the print and to put a focus on "the ease of printing", the primary intent of my PT8 review was to introduce this software to a great many people who may have been otherwise unaware of it and to provide readers with the benefit of my observations emerging from testing its usability and results. Thank you for your interest.
The website does have a lot of useful information but important aspects don't apply to my printer - so far. I cannot manually cut. I cannot add cut marks. I cannot vary the size of the Cell without also varying the size of the image inside the cell. This applies to a Canon iPF 8400 and roll paper. Maybe this software is more suited for the smaller printers......
Victor
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Hi Victor,
Needless to say, in writing a review, the reviewer is confined to the equipment he/she has for doing the testing, in my case at the time an Epson 4900. Hence I cannot unfortunately respond to the specific issues you are facing in your context. This would fall more squarely within the domain of tech support. I would suggest you get in touch with LSI tech support for help with these problems, and if you learn anything of generic interest to the rest of the community it would be useful for you to report it here.
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This is absolutely not a "key point". Read the paragraphs in the article under the "Test photos for PrinTao 8" illustration and you will see that there is no problem using your usual custom paper profiles in PrinTao 8. As for the rest of aaronchan's questions, I invite him to read the first sentence under "Philosophy of PT8". I would also invite readers to visit the PrintTao 8 website, which has lots of information.
In line with LuLa's initiative to emphasize the print and to put a focus on "the ease of printing", the primary intent of my PT8 review was to introduce this software to a great many people who may have been otherwise unaware of it and to provide readers with the benefit of my observations emerging from testing its usability and results. Thank you for your interest.
Dear Mark,
I have read your review and It pretty much covers all the information.
Let me expand my original question a bit more:
PrinTao8 uses it's own color engine as they have advertised.
But based on your print quality review, there is only a very small difference between it and the print driver.
Plus, it can uses canned profile with it's own color engine, this makes me think what would be the difference under the hood?
And WHY should I use this software if I saved all of my template in LR and presets in the printer's driver already?
If nesting is another feature as a selling point, there are ImageNest which has been around for a while and in the very close price range. Also we have Print-Tool, which is only $39 bulks. If you are on Windows platform, Q-Image is def. a best choice since the ease of use.
So my very last question, probably for LSI Rossee, what makes PrinTao8 so special compare to the others?
I know this question might sound rough but as a consumor, I would like to know why should I pick a Ford Focus rather than Toyota Corolla, right? Performance? Quality? Comfy? Price? Or after sell services?
Thanks
Aaron
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But based on your print quality review, there is only a very small difference between it and the print driver.
Plus, it can uses canned profile with it's own color engine, this makes me think what would be the difference under the hood?
And WHY should I use this software if I saved all of my template in LR and presets in the printer's driver already?
Coming into this late (and yes I DO need to read Mark's piece), good questions. I checked out the product when it first came up (year, year and a half ago? Have to check). I asked myself the same questions you raise above.
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Aaron, sorry, it really isn't my job to compare this software with every other printing solution out there and tell you why I think there is something special about the one or the other. That would be fun, but not me in my lifetime. If Jan Rossee wants to address this question of course up to him to do so. But I can offer this: PrinTao 8 was designed for simplicity as its most important selling feature because, I am informed, numerous folks have trouble managing printing processes in software such as Photoshop and Lightroom; that may not apply to you or me, but it's a big world out there with a huge range of talent and proficiency when it comes to using software. As well PT8 offers a number of automated layout features that one does not find in these other applications and which people may find handy to have. In brief, it has a combination of features which may make it an attractive printing solution to some people more or less than others. It all depends on one's needs, digital imaging environment and level of proficiency with other printing solutions. As I said, I took it upon myself to write-up this software as a service to the community - I get nothing more out of it than the satisfaction of authorship; everyone reading the review would decide for themselves whether this is for them. To my mind the key takeaway is that it makes excellent prints with minimum fuss and bother, and being independent of the printer driver and Colorsync, one is perhaps sheltered from issues that could arise in the periodic changes made to these otherwise necessary platforms.
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Hi Victor,
Needless to say, in writing a review, the reviewer is confined to the equipment he/she has for doing the testing, in my case at the time an Epson 4900. Hence I cannot unfortunately respond to the specific issues you are facing in your context. This would fall more squarely within the domain of tech support. I would suggest you get in touch with LSI tech support for help with these problems, and if you learn anything of generic interest to the rest of the community it would be useful for you to report it here.
Mark..... I can appreciate your limitations. Obviously you can't begin to use/test the software with numerous printers. My approach was very simple, though. From a simplistic approach I should/must be able to tell the printer where to start, where to stop, the size of the paper and the margins. So far, I have been unable to do this with PrintTao 8. They tout the features that I want such as manual cutting, applying cut marks but those features are unavailable to me. I have started a case with them and will post when I hear from them.
Victor
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Mark,
thanks for your thoughtful review. It is appreciated.
Rick
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Mark..... I can appreciate your limitations. Obviously you can't begin to use/test the software with numerous printers. My approach was very simple, though. From a simplistic approach I should/must be able to tell the printer where to start, where to stop, the size of the paper and the margins. So far, I have been unable to do this with PrintTao 8. They tout the features that I want such as manual cutting, applying cut marks but those features are unavailable to me. I have started a case with them and will post when I hear from them.
Victor
That's good Victor - I'll be most interested to hear of the outcome.
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This is absolutely not a "key point". Read the paragraphs in the article under the "Test photos for PrinTao 8" illustration and you will see that there is no problem using your usual custom paper profiles in PrinTao 8. As for the rest of aaronchan's questions, I invite him to read the first sentence under "Philosophy of PT8". I would also invite readers to visit the PrintTao 8 website, which has lots of information.
Mark, you are making an assumption that PrinTao 8 lays down ink "exactly" as the Epson native driver does. Maybe yes, maybe no. My only point is that if you use a profile made using the Epson driver "there could be slight differences between hue and color density" which means a profile might not be interchangeable. Say you grow dissatisfied with IGFS as your standard paper and want to move to a new one that is not supported by PrinTao 8, how do you profile that paper? Do you do it using the Epson driver or does PrinTao 8 have a feature to print out a patch set using their driver. In looking at the PrinTao website it appears that they provide profiles for the supported papers (which of course adds cost to the product as each new paper that is added requires someone to create a profile).
Were I to use this product I would want to make certain that the profile works as intended (rather than comparing patch sets, I would probably just re-profile the paper just as if I were moving to a new printer). Maybe the PrinTao driver is 'equivalent' to the Epson driver as you note in comparing LR to PrinTao prints. You do note a couple of differences in LR vs PrinTao in your review. What is not intuitive to me is the behavior of a profile between the two drivers.
Please don't think that I'm taking anything away from the quality of the review, it's just that for the price of this product there are questions that would need to be answered for prospective purchasers. In my case is just an academic exercise as I am on Windows and won't be using this product and were I to switch, Qimage appears to do everything that PrinTao does for Windows users.
Alan
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Mark, you are making an assumption that PrinTao 8 lays down ink "exactly" as the Epson native driver does. Maybe yes, maybe no. My only point is that if you use a profile made using the Epson driver "there could be slight differences between hue and color density" which means a profile might not be interchangeable. Say you grow dissatisfied with IGFS as your standard paper and want to move to a new one that is not supported by PrinTao 8, how do you profile that paper? Do you do it using the Epson driver or does PrinTao 8 have a feature to print out a patch set using their driver. In looking at the PrinTao website it appears that they provide profiles for the supported papers (which of course adds cost to the product as each new paper that is added requires someone to create a profile).
Were I to use this product I would want to make certain that the profile works as intended (rather than comparing patch sets, I would probably just re-profile the paper just as if I were moving to a new printer). Maybe the PrinTao driver is 'equivalent' to the Epson driver as you note in comparing LR to PrinTao prints. You do note a couple of differences in LR vs PrinTao in your review. What is not intuitive to me is the behavior of a profile between the two drivers.
Please don't think that I'm taking anything away from the quality of the review, it's just that for the price of this product there are questions that would need to be answered for prospective purchasers. In my case is just an academic exercise as I am on Windows and won't be using this product and were I to switch, Qimage appears to do everything that PrinTao does for Windows users.
Alan
I am not making any assumption about what goes on under the hood in respect to how ink gets laid down in either the Epson driver or PT8. I don't have such inside technical insight into their secret sauces, so don't make such inferences. Just read what I said about comparative print quality - the bottom line that matters.
I try different papers all the time because distributors send me sample packs to work with and report on as I see fit. My standard procedure is to start with their profiles and then do my own custom profiling. To assure that there is no colour management lurking in the background I use the Adobe Color Print Utility for generating the profiling target pages, read the patches, generate the profiles and store them where they belong. I can load these very same profiles into PT8 and use them successfully, a judgment based on the results - i.e. prints of standard printer test images and real world photographs, not inferences about stuff under the hood of which I know nothing useful. Nothing I've seen in PT8 allows one to create printer/paper profiling targets with complete assurance of their being no colour management. The application was not meant for colour management geeks - it was meant for people who just want to make (really good) prints easily. If I am wrong about this, Jan Rossee can jump in and correct me.
As for "questions that need to be answered for prospective purchasers", there may be that need in your mind, but were it me I'd be rather hesitant to project that mindset onto the general clientele for this product. Prospective purchasers can download a demo, try it in their own environment for their own needs, testing it in whatever way that shows them what they want to see and decide whether or not it's for them, without getting into matters that are arcane to a very high proportion of the people out there who just want easy but high quality printing.
That's really all I can say about this particular issue Alan, so I won't be engaging further on it.
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Mark,
thanks for your thoughtful review. It is appreciated.
Rick
You are welcome. Glad you found it useful.
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"The most striking thing about the comparison is how difficult it is to tell them apart... I fail to see any meaningful or systematic difference between the two sets of results... In sum, I’m a happy camper with the results from PT8 – anything that resembles LR quality so closely is fine for me."
I am I missing something? There does not seem to be any compelling print quality reason to use PT8. So it is really about the other features it brings like improved work-flow?
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Mark, as a follow up to my earlier post I did submit a ticket to PrintTao and actually got a phone call. I ended up talking to Darin who was very knowledgeable and very helpful. There is a bug in the software that won't allow for the 'Cell' size to be independently adjusted without also adjusting the image size. There is a workaround which hopefully will be eliminated with a software fix. I need to adjust the Cell size to allow me to have leading and lagging space for canvas wrapping (I print Museum wraps). There is also a simple way to tell the printer not to cut and also a way to apply cut marks - although not as simple as my Canon software. I have yet to actually make a print but intend to do so this weekend. I was very impressed to see the willingness of PrinTao to make sure their software works as intended.
Thanks much for bringing this software to my attention.
Victor
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"The most striking thing about the comparison is how difficult it is to tell them apart... I fail to see any meaningful or systematic difference between the two sets of results... In sum, I’m a happy camper with the results from PT8 – anything that resembles LR quality so closely is fine for me."
I am I missing something? There does not seem to be any compelling print quality reason to use PT8. So it is really about the other features it brings like improved work-flow?
No, you're not missing anything - the fact that it produces competitive quality output in a much simplified workflow with numerous automated layout options, as well as its independence of Colorsync and printer drivers are the most technically significant attractions.
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Mark, as a follow up to my earlier post I did submit a ticket to PrintTao and actually got a phone call. I ended up talking to Darin who was very knowledgeable and very helpful. There is a bug in the software that won't allow for the 'Cell' size to be independently adjusted without also adjusting the image size. There is a workaround which hopefully will be eliminated with a software fix. I need to adjust the Cell size to allow me to have leading and lagging space for canvas wrapping (I print Museum wraps). There is also a simple way to tell the printer not to cut and also a way to apply cut marks - although not as simple as my Canon software. I have yet to actually make a print but intend to do so this weekend. I was very impressed to see the willingness of PrinTao to make sure their software works as intended.
Thanks much for bringing this software to my attention.
Victor
You are welcome Victor and glad you are receiving the necessary support.
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I printed my first print with Printao using Epson Exhibition Canvas Gloss Natural using my profile. This is one of my favorite papers as it has no OBA's and yet has a very white base. It is easy to handle and goes through my Canon iPF 8400 with '0' adjustments for canvas stretch. I followed with a print using the print plugin from Canon. They were, to my eyes, indistinguishable when viewed in a GTI executive work station. They were both printed to 34 inches in width. The image I selected has lots of subtle pastel tones which would be very easy to tell apart if there were any color shift. This isn't taking anything away from Printao as I really expected it to match the Canon Plugin - if there were color differences then I would have had to figure out a way to profile from within Printao which I don't believe is possible. I also couldn't distinguish any difference in sharpness - even after checking with a 10X loupe. It really is easy to use and would even be easier if there weren't the current layout bugs. It may make more sense for someone who prints smaller prints but I would consider it after the bugs are fixed. From a network attached printer point of view it is truly plug and play. All in all very nice software.
Victor
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Mark,
thank you for your review, I have to admit that I was unaware of the existence of PrinTao. I bought a licence for the Epson P800 and it works well. I would like to understand the export from LR a little bit better. At the moment I have the feeling that I should export as TIFF so that I have full control (I did´t test that). I understand that you don´t want to enter into a comparison with other tools but unfortunately that would be the most critical part for me. I am using Imageprint on a 4880 and I am struggling to convince myself to by a licence for the 9900, the price is just too high. And the use of that bloody dongle is a pain in ... . I bought Imageprint because on the 4880 it has a quality advantage over the standard LR/Epson driver. At least on Canson Baryta and Illford GFS. So if you don´t want to enter into a comparison - I understand this - maybe one of the other readers has done that or has seen such a comparison (I could´t find one). It would safe me a lot of time and paper.
Looking forward to read the other upcoming articles on printing.
thanks again
Jurgen
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We will be running an article as well as a video on ImagePrint. They are two different applications yet the end result is pretty much the same. We hope to have the IP article and video in March.
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I have been testing PrinTao 8 for several days now on the Epson R3880.
The supplied profiles for the papers I have used work very well but I still have some unanswered questions such as...
It appears on first glance that the supplied profiles are actually colour profiles and therefore when printing black and white, you are actually printing through a color managed workflow, much the same as "Letting Photoshop Manage The Colors" and choosing your desired profile.
I understand IP do supply grey profiles to ensure neutrality and then we have the Epson ABW (Black Box)
Has anyone compared these for comparison against Printao 8
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Ian, I discussed B&W neutrality in detail in the article, but the comparison was with printing out of Lightroom which uses the Epson driver and standard ICC RGB profiles. I don't use ImagePrint so I could not make that comparison. Kevin Raber does use ImagePrint, so he may wish to comment on this aspect if and when he can. However, in light of the grayscale values I posted in the article I am quite confident that a seasoned observer would have a hard time distinguishing the relative perceptual neutrality of B&W prints whether made from Lightroom, ImagePrint, PrinTao 8 or the Epson ABW driver (which I don't normally use because it is somewhat of a Black Box from which I have never noticed any tremendous comparative advantage). Some people will take exception to this remark, but I think we need to be mindful of the possibility that there may be a point beyond which chasing a "holy grail" of neutrality takes us from perceptual reality into the realm of the obsessive.
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Thanks mark for the reply.
I will and study your findings again in the article you wrote.
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Interesting article Mark and good read.
I have been delving further into the workings of PrinTao 8 and doing lot's of testing.
Initially, I thought the paper profiles you loaded from their interface were actually their own profiles but after further inspection, it appears that the profiles are identical to the ones from the paper manufacturers website which is even more interesting if they use their own print engine.
This is also probably why I am not seeing any significant difference between the output from Photoshop and Printao 8 in terms of quality on the 3880 at least.
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I have not discussed with LSI where the profiles come from, but yes, using the same profile in alternative applications would contribute to similarity of results. In the case of PrinTao, two other key components also contribute to image quality:both the CMS and the printer drivers are LSI developments bespoke to this application, contributing to the consistent, high quality results it produces.
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I agree entirely Mark. If LSI could produce their own gray profiles I think they would be on the road to giving Image Print a run for their money at a much more affordable option.
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Are you certain - and if so how determined - that special grey profiles are needed to produce neutral B&W prints from files that have no toning in the file numbers?
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Are you certain - and if so how determined - that special grey profiles are needed to produce neutral B&W prints from files that have no toning in the file numbers?
I am only going by the fact that the more coloured inks we add to the mix, the more likely chance we have of introducing some colour into the final print. (Maybe wrong here but please correct me if I am )
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I have not discussed with LSI where the profiles come from, but yes, using the same profile in alternative applications would contribute to similarity of results. In the case of PrinTao, two other key components also contribute to image quality:both the CMS and the printer drivers are LSI developments bespoke to this application, contributing to the consistent, high quality results it produces.
Hi Mark,
Interesting, but it (my emphasis in bold above) is not mentioned on their website as far as I know / last time I looked. In fact they are a bit vague, leaving it open for interpretation. They mention "PrinTao 8 takes over color management and all printer driver settings, allowing you to concentrate entirely on your images." which to me just means that they have built a step-by-step user interface that deals with filling in the details based on higher level choices (such as e.g. paper choice, which then triggers the correct profile).
The fact that profiles seem to be identical to paper manufacturer's offering re-enforces my doubt about anything more involved than using e.g. LCMS and paper manufacturer's profiles.
Cheers,
Bart
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I am only going by the fact that the more coloured inks we add to the mix, the more likely chance we have of introducing some colour into the final print. (Maybe wrong here but please correct me if I am )
This is one of those situations where you need to measure actual results (the prints, preferably targets with known file values) to understand for sure what the application does with the profiles you are using.
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Hi Mark,
Interesting, but it (my emphasis in bold above) is not mentioned on their website as far as I know / last time I looked. In fact they are a bit vague, leaving it open for interpretation. They mention "PrinTao 8 takes over color management and all printer driver settings, allowing you to concentrate entirely on your images." which to me just means that they have built a step-by-step user interface that deals with filling in the details based on higher level choices (such as e.g. paper choice, which then triggers the correct profile).
The fact that profiles seem to be identical to paper manufacturer's offering re-enforces my doubt about anything more involved than using e.g. LCMS and paper manufacturer's profiles.
Cheers,
Bart
Bart,
I happen to know that LSI put a very considerable developmental effort into the design, testing and manufacture of this software. Regardless of how they may have used existing materials as part of their "assemblage" under the hood is really quite irrelevant to me. What matters is the final package and whether it performs to produce high quality results in a user-friendly manner. I don't know whether you've tested it or not, but I have, and that is what underlies the conclusions I came to as stated in my review, and reconfirmed by the independent testing that Kevin Raber did before we agreed to publish.
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There is no doubt at all that the program does perform very well and does produce great quality prints. The interface is clean, very easy to use and does make it extremely easy to use.
My initial thought when reading the review was that the paper profiles supplied for the installed printer were actually profiled for their own print engine, maybe they are. What led me to think they are just the standard profiles suppled when you install the manufacturers driver is that when comparing the manufacturers profiles to the ones in /Users/YouruserNamehere/Library/Application Support/PrinTao/PrintMedia/Epson Standard Media 3880.mediapkg they look identical.
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Bart,
I happen to know that LSI put a very considerable developmental effort into the design, testing and manufacture of this software. Regardless of how they may have used existing materials as part of their "assemblage" under the hood is really quite irrelevant to me.
But Mark, that is something different than writing one's own CMS and creating one's own drivers and profiles. That may also be relevant to others, who e.g. would like to compare to alternatives. If the same components are used, then no tests need to be done. If one tests one implementation, then other implementations will usually give the same results.
What matters is the final package and whether it performs to produce high quality results in a user-friendly manner. I don't know whether you've tested it or not, but I have, and that is what underlies the conclusions I came to as stated in my review, and reconfirmed by the independent testing that Kevin Raber did before we agreed to publish.
No I haven't tested it myself, because I do not use a computer with the Mac OS. So that's why I use Qimage Ultimate, which clearly states that it uses the tried and tested LCMS II and any ICC Printer profile (also self made ones) that one chooses to use, so that part is transparent and the same between applications.
Cheers,
Bart
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But Mark, that is something different than writing one's own CMS and creating one's own drivers and profiles. That may also be relevant to others, who e.g. would like to compare to alternatives. If the same components are used, then no tests need to be done. If one tests one implementation, then other implementations will usually give the same results.
No I haven't tested it myself, because I do not use a computer with the Mac OS. So that's why I use Qimage Ultimate, which clearly states that it uses the tried and tested LCMS II and any ICC Printer profile (also self made ones) that one chooses to use, so that part is transparent and the same between applications.
Cheers,
Bart
Yes, one can always go at it indirectly by inferences and deductive logic, but as far as I'm concerned, the most direct and reliable way of knowing what an application does is to use it and test it with reliable methods and materials.
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... but as far as I'm concerned, the most direct and reliable way of knowing what an application does is to use it and test it with reliable methods and materials.
As indeed you did.
And your testing (as compared to Lr) concluded that
" ... I fail to see any meaningful or systematic difference between the two sets of results. Even the differences I mention here would be “lost in translation” were I to scan the prints and reproduce the scanned files in this review. "
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Regarding their supposed CMS:
PrinTao 8‘s ICC color management is based on one of the best color engines in the world with special focus on accuracy and performance. It uses the International Color Consortium standard (ICC), which is the modern standard for color management and was approved by ISO as an international standard in 2005, ISO 15076-1.
Our intelligent color management with “embedded profile detection” automatically matches the embedded source profile in any imported image to the correct output profile, representing the media, ink and print quality of the output.
http://www.printao8.com/overview/features/color-management/
continuing,
... clicking on “Install Printer” PrinTao 8 will download all required driver data from the web and install it. Also printer-specific color profiles for papers from the printer manufacturer will be downloaded and installed.
http://www.printao8.com/overview/features/printer-assistant/
Nowhere is there a claim to their own unique CMS unlike, say, ImagePrint.
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We can argue around the question of whether they are just repackaging the Epson driver or in fact have created a new driver and CMS but unless someone is willing to do individual patch testing of both we won't really know. This was the point I tried to make early on regarding PrinTao, why would one expect an ICC profile to behave "identically" if the driver were changed in a manner that the ink lay down is somewhat different for the relevant paper versus the Epson driver.
The key issue from Mark's excellent review is that PrinTao produces excellent prints that differ little at all relative to the Epson driver and LR. While some of us would like some transparency about this we don't have it now. As with Bart, I'm on Windows and cannot use this software.
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Regarding their supposed CMS:
http://www.printao8.com/overview/features/color-management/
continuing,
http://www.printao8.com/overview/features/printer-assistant/
Nowhere is there a claim to their own unique CMS unlike, say, ImagePrint.
So what? Where is all this leading? Have you tried the application? Do you like it? Or do you have issues with it in terms of what it does or doesn't do?
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So what?
So plenty.
And, yes, I did try (the original) PrintTao and came to the same conclusion you did '.. failed to see any meaningful or systematic difference ' or benefit of PrintTao over Lr.
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Although there seems to be some discussion regarding their CMS I have found that image layout has severe limitations and problems. Unlike LR or PS trying to vary a 'CELL'/Page size vs./independent of 'IMAGE' size is impossible or very cumbersome. To me this is completely unacceptable for printing software. I have had emails back and forth regarding this issue with nothing resolved other than they will make it a 'feature' for a future release. Feature for a future release???? It already exists with every other printing software I know of. That's a deal killer for me.
Victor
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If it's a bug they should just fix it. But could you describe in more detail how you get this problem. What are the conditions in which you would want to adjust these independently of each other and what unwanted results are you getting when you do so?
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Mark.... I use roll paper so I have never tried anything for sheet. I also scale my images ahead of time to the size I want them to be. I do all of the upsizing outside of PrintTao. When an image is brought into the program the 'Cell size' and 'Image size' are linked. This is default for them. I want to increase the cell size but since both image size and cell size are linked I can't increase the cell size without also increasing the image size..... believe me I have tried many ways including dragging with the crop tool and using the sizing numerical inputs. What is even more frustrating is increasing the cell size to the desired size and then numerically trying to reduce the image size. The image and cell then instantly revert back to the default size. The attitude of the parent company as per their tech support is that this is how it should be..... well, not for me.
Victor
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Mark.... I use roll paper so I have never tried anything for sheet. I also scale my images ahead of time to the size I want them to be. I do all of the upsizing outside of PrintTao. When an image is brought into the program the 'Cell size' and 'Image size' are linked. This is default for them. I want to increase the cell size but since both image size and cell size are linked I can't increase the cell size without also increasing the image size..... believe me I have tried many ways including dragging with the crop tool and using the sizing numerical inputs. What is even more frustrating is increasing the cell size to the desired size and then numerically trying to reduce the image size. The image and cell then instantly revert back to the default size. The attitude of the parent company as per their tech support is that this is how it should be..... well, not for me.
Victor
Hi Victor,
OK, based on this, a few observations, but not yet a solution - we'll need to talk a bit more; however this is useful. Firstly, in principle I don't *think* the issue is affected by whether one uses sheet or roll paper. So let us set that variable aside for now. Dimensioning and resampling your photos before taking them into PrinTao is correct procedure because PrinTao cannot resample. It can only change linear dimensions and if in so doing the image size exceeds the paper size, the photo will be cropped. So your workflow for this avoids that problem. The one missing piece in this, and what would determine whether the application's behaviour is a bug (your view) or lack of a feature (LSI's view) is why you would want to change the cell size independently of the image size. Or, let me put it this way: As we just discussed above, we already have the photo dimensioned (linear and PPI) the way we want it before it comes into PrinTao. Before we bring it into PrinTao we select a paper size (whether roll or sheet) that will at least accommodate the linear dimensions of the photo. We bring it into PrinTao, at which point the application reads the photo's dimensions and selects the corresponding image and cell size to match. Could you explain what more is needed? For example (1), if I wanted to shrink the image size a bit to change the size of the margin or framing around the photo, I can do that in the Image Size Palette in PrinTao, which will at the same time inversely adjust the PPI (zone slider at the bottom of the image window) because the application does not resample the photo. For this kind of operation, one wants the cell size and the photo size to be the same otherwise the photo centering will not work correctly - pressing the "center" command will center the cell but not the photo if their dimensions differ - at least in my copy of the application. For example (2), let us say I want to put more than one photo on the sheet within a given set of paper dimensions. I can do that in the Templates Palette either by using one of their provided layouts that does the job, or by creating a custom template. The image and cell sizes should respect the parameters of the template. So I come back to the basic missing piece in your puzzle: why do you want the cell size to behave independently of the image size?
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Hi Victor,
(1), if I wanted to shrink the image size a bit to change the size of the margin or framing around the photo, I can do that in the Image Size Palette in PrinTao, which will at the same time inversely adjust the PPI (zone slider at the bottom of the image window) because the application does not resample the photo. For this kind of operation, one wants the cell size and the photo size to be the same otherwise the photo centering will not work correctly - pressing the "center" command will center the cell but not the photo if their dimensions differ - at least in my copy of the application.
But..... you cannot 'See' what is going on. How do you know how much margin you have created by adjusting the image size? I print museum wraps. The size of my image has to be very exact as each of my frames is slightly different in size (product of stretcher bars). I need 5 inches of leading and lagging space. I can easily do that with any other printing program and easily visualize my 'Cell/paper size'). With PrintTao I have found it to be impossible.
Victor
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But..... you cannot 'See' what is going on. How do you know how much margin you have created by adjusting the image size? I print museum wraps. The size of my image has to be very exact as each of my frames is slightly different in size (product of stretcher bars). I need 5 inches of leading and lagging space. I can easily do that with any other printing program and easily visualize my 'Cell/paper size'). With PrintTao I have found it to be impossible.
Victor
I have just tried this again, and actually you can see what is going on. Firstly, you should have the Ruler active (shows linear dimensions width and height on the left and top of the print preview window respectively). Secondly, you can create a custom page size for each of your photo frames. Thirdly, you know how to add the lead and lag requirements to the linear dimensions of the photo itself. Your custom page size would be the photo size plus the 5 inches lag and lead at each end. PrinTao can then position the photo in the middle of the page so your lead and lag margins are correct. Am I missing something?
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I shouldn't have to add the leading and lagging space to my image..... doing so increases the file size unnecessarily. It seems to me that you want to back into this through different functions. I should be able to simply increase the size of the cell without also increasing the size of the image. Conversely I should be able to reduce the size of my image without also reducing the size of the cell. That's how its supposed to work...... that's what you are missing.
I finally heard from tech support again and they have finally admitted that this is a bug and has been forwarded to the developers.
Victor
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Hi Victor,
Yes, what you are saying makes sense in respect to the file size consideration, so your desired way of doing it is indeed better than the workaround I suggested above. I am pleased they have acknowledged this behaviour should be improved/fixed.
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Does that mean that "nesting" as available in ImagePrint doesn't work in Printao 8?
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Mark..... You may or may not have thought of this but providing 'Blank Space' in the image itself would also drastically (at least in my case) increase the printing time. This is, of course, all moot since I believe a fix is in the making.
Victor
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Mark..... You may or may not have thought of this but providing 'Blank Space' in the image itself would also drastically (at least in my case) increase the printing time. This is, of course, all moot since I believe a fix is in the making.
Victor
Victor, with my printers, blank space does nothing to printing time. The printer simply advances the paper to the point where it needs to begin laying down ink. Anyhow, as you say, "moot" - let us hope.
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Does that mean that "nesting" as available in ImagePrint doesn't work in Printao 8?
What do you mean by "nesting"? (I am not an ImagePrint user.)
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That may not even be the correct term but let's say you start out with a 16x20 paper size, roll or sheet. You can drag and drop as many photos as will fit on the sheet, arrange or rearrange them according to your liking, allowing as much or as little space between them as you desire.
When making, say a 30 inch print on a 44 inch printer you can fill in the unused areas with smaller prints.
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That may not even be the correct term but let's say you start out with a 16x20 paper size, roll or sheet. You can drag and drop as many photos as will fit on the sheet, arrange or rearrange them according to your liking, allowing as much or as little space between them as you desire.
When making, say a 30 inch print on a 44 inch printer you can fill in the unused areas with smaller prints.
Yes, if you read my review you will see that PrinTao has layout templates that will do all this automatically.
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Mark..... I assumed that the printer would 'See' the blank space as something to print without actually using any ink. PrinTao sent me another email with workarounds that require unnecessary extra steps and maybe not the outcome I need..... a fix should be on the way. As I've said before the software has great potential.
Victor
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Yes, if you read my review you will see that PrinTao has layout templates that will do all this automatically.
Thanks Mark, I saw that but couldn't figure out if that's the same thing. Does a template mean that you have to pre-select certain sizes?
With nesting you can drag and drop any combination of sizes and rearrange them until the blank space is filled to your liking. I'll go to their website to see if I can figure it out. Thanks for your informative review.
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You are welcome.
On their website I believe you can download the user manual and other documentation that would explain how to work the features in more detail than appropriate for a review.